George Foreman -vs- Sonny Liston

[Holmes' Jab]

15 rounds, at their respective best. Who prevails? :smoke


* This matchup has most likely been done before, but IIRC I haven't seen it mentioned since the older batch of posts disappeared some months ago. Either way it's another chance to state your pick n' reasons why.

[Holmes' Jab]

I'll take Liston to prevail, providing he boxes smartly behind that jab. After weathering initial Foreman pressure, Liston starts to gain the upper hand in the exchanges and stops a tiring Foreman late on (whilst being a few rounds up on the cards).

If Liston elects to slug to-toe-toe with Foreman though, I think this would be a wrong tactic. He could well be in be in big trouble should this situation unfold- I don't think Sonny would fall into this trap, though.

Liston TKO10 Foreman. :good

[JimboDs]

Foreman, KO. I don't see Liston being able to deal with his physical advantages any better than Frazier did.

[Cachibatches]

George idolized Sonny and told a funny story that I read somewhere.

He said that he (George) used to really beat up on his sparring partners, accept when he was sparring with Liston. Once, he really hit Sonny with some monster shot, and Sonny just casually said "No son" and hit him back with a worse one.

Who would have won? I don't know. George never really did have a prime since he didn;t learn to pace himself until he was almost 40 years old. If you could brind Sonny back to life and put George through a time machine and put them in the ring, I would say George. If you are literally talikng about putting the Geroge who destroyed Frasier againdt the Liston that destryed Patterson, I would say Liston because of his vast experiece against guys like Clevland Willaims, Eddie Machon and Zora Foley.

[McGrain]

Foreman, KO. I don't see Liston being able to deal with his physical advantages any better than Frazier did.

What physical advantages are you refering to? The weighed around the same, Liston was physically larger (bigger biceps, chest, fist etc.) and probably there would be very little difference in terms of reach, although on paper, Liston edges it.

I think you'll have to go a little deeper with your analysis than "Foreman was two inches taller".

[Mendoza]

What physical advantages are you refering to? The weighed around the same, Liston was physically larger (bigger biceps, chest, fist etc.) and probably there would be very little difference in terms of reach, although on paper, Liston edges it.

I think you'll have to go a little deeper with your analysis than "Foreman was two inches taller".

Agreed. Liston and Foreman are evenly matched on the physicality’s. The difference here is Liston has better skills. I think Liston wins, likely via mid round TKO.

Foreman and Liston sparred a bit. Foreman said he was annoyed that Liston could take his punches.

[McGrain]

Liston and Foreman are evenly matched on the physicality’s. The difference here is Liston has better skills. I think Liston wins, likely via mid round TKO.

This is pretty much how I see it.

Foreman and Liston sparred a bit. Foreman said he was annoyed that Liston could take his punches.

I also have Foreman saying that the only time he was "stopped dead" by a punch was against Liston in sparring. Unfortunatley, it's just a throw-away, and not dated.

[ChrisPontius]

What physical advantages are you refering to? The weighed around the same, Liston was physically larger (bigger biceps, chest, fist etc.) and probably there would be very little difference in terms of reach, although on paper, Liston edges it.

I think you'll have to go a little deeper with your analysis than "Foreman was two inches taller".

I think he means this:

When Liston was 20, he weighed 200lb.
When Foreman was 20, he weighed 215lb.

When Liston was 30, he weighed 212lb.
When Foreman was 30, he weighed 230lb.

When Liston was nearing 40, he weighed 220lb.
When Foreman was nearing 40, he weighed 240-260lb (yes, with a lot of fat).


Foreman is 6'3 1/2 or 6'4
Liston is 6'0 or 6'0 1/2


Liston has a 84 inch reach, but that is more wide shoulders than long reach. Cleveland Williams clearly has longer arms on film, and he's 6'3 with an 80" reach. Foreman's arms look very long on film and he's taller.


The difference is that with the exception of Williams and Ali (who both made Liston look quite small), Liston faced a lot of small guys, whereas Foreman faced a lot of big guys (Lyle, Norton, Ali, etc) which makes him look less big.

But make no mistake, Foreman definitly was the bigger man.

[Holmes' Jab]

[quote=Mendoza]Agreed. Liston and Foreman are evenly matched on the physicality’s. The difference here is Liston has better skills. I think Liston wins, likely via mid round TKO. [quote]

Almost spot on with this. I think Foreman's sturdy chin and durabilty would take him through to the later rounds- before being stopped.

[McGrain]

I think he means this:

When Liston was 20, he weighed 200lb.
When Foreman was 20, he weighed 215lb.

When Liston was 30, he weighed 212lb.
When Foreman was 30, he weighed 230lb.

No disrespct bro, but so what?

If we're interested in the peak men, we'll take Liston from around about Patterson - 213 - and Foreman from Frazier - 217 - and we find a negligable difference. I'm not prepared to accept that Foreman was "bigger" because he four pounds heavier. If you want you can match up Foreman from the Hollyfield fight - about 250 - with Patterson era Liston. Here Foreman is certainly the bigger man but he'll get the shit kicked out of him.


Foreman is 6'3 1/2 or 6'4
Liston is 6'0 or 6'0 1/2

He certainly is taller. The tale of the tape also show he has smaller fists, calves, thighs, forearms pretty much everything aside from waist.

Foreman was taller and heavier (peak for peak) by the size of an evenly weighed shit (if you drink black and tan), but in terms of physicality was smaller.

There's very little difference worth arguing about in my view.


Liston has a 84 inch reach, but that is more wide shoulders than long reach. Cleveland Williams clearly has longer arms on film, and he's 6'3 with an 80" reach. Foreman's arms look very long on film and he's taller.

I said that on paper Liston has the bigger reach and that in reality there wouldn't be much in it, i'm happy with that surmise.

[JohnThomas1]

I've made a lengthy post on this one a couple of times, but Liston stops Foreman in about 7 rounds. Tighter and straighter punching as well as having power and strength somewhere close to George. Better boxer too. He would also be one of the few guys in history who could attack Foreman's body with a degree of success.

[Holmes' Jab]

I've made a lengthy post on this one a couple of times, but Liston stops Foreman in about 7 rounds. Tighter and straighter punching as well as having power and strength somewhere close to George. Better boxer too. He would also be one of the few guys in history who could attack Foreman's body with a degree of success.

Good points.

Liston's ram-rod jab straight down the pipe would give Foreman fit's: he won't neccessarily have to brawl it out with Foreman, as his boxing ability on the outside is superior. Sonny would aim to make Foreman fight his fight and then pick him off as the openings appear (Foreman is no defensive genius).

The fight wouldn't be a straightfoward cakewalk by any stretch of the imagination, but there are just more options for Liston to win here than vice-versa.

[Quick Cash]

I've made a lengthy post on this one a couple of times, but Liston stops Foreman in about 7 rounds. Tighter and straighter punching as well as having power and strength somewhere close to George. Better boxer too. He would also be one of the few guys in history who could attack Foreman's body with a degree of success.

Excellent post especially the last bit. I have Liston winning in the 6th or 7th round myself.

[ChrisPontius]

No disrespct bro, but so what?

If we're interested in the peak men, we'll take Liston from around about Patterson - 213 - and Foreman from Frazier - 217 - and we find a negligable difference. I'm not prepared to accept that Foreman was "bigger" because he four pounds heavier. If you want you can match up Foreman from the Hollyfield fight - about 250 - with Patterson era Liston. Here Foreman is certainly the bigger man but he'll get the shit kicked out of him.




He certainly is taller. The tale of the tape also show he has smaller fists, calves, thighs, forearms pretty much everything aside from waist.

Foreman was taller and heavier (peak for peak) by the size of an evenly weighed shit (if you drink black and tan), but in terms of physicality was smaller.

There's very little difference worth arguing about in my view.




I said that on paper Liston has the bigger reach and that in reality there wouldn't be much in it, i'm happy with that surmise.

No disrespect taken, but i would like to point out that anything over 213lb was pretty meant being out of shape for Liston, whereas Foreman had no problem carrying over 226lb.



This fight is a really hard one to call, by the way. I used to have the same position most posters here have, that Liston's technical ability and chin would get him through, to a late stoppage. But lately i like Foreman by stoppage. Williams, the only big and powerful opponent that Liston fought, had no trouble landing so i think Foreman definitly has a chance to be more succesful. Of course you can also turn that logic around and say that Lyle, Foreman's only big, powerful (in fact, Lyle was not THAT powerful i think) hit Foreman plenty, too, and nearly stopped him. So it's really hard to call this fight.

[mr. magoo]

Difficult pick.

If Liston uses his jab, defense and superior boxing skills without being lured into a slugfest with Foreman, then I'd pick him to win probably by mid to late round stoppage or knockout. On the otherhand, if Sonny makes himself available to get hit by George, who was far more powerful and dangerous than anyone Sonny ever traded with, then I might be inclined to favour George. Of course some may argue that trading with Sonny could be just as big of a mistake for Foreman, but personally I think Foreman wins a mid to close range match. He knocked out a lot more guys who were bigger and stronger than a lot of the men Liston beat coming up.

[PowerPuncher]

What physical advantages are you refering to? The weighed around the same, Liston was physically larger (bigger biceps, chest, fist etc.) and probably there would be very little difference in terms of reach, although on paper, Liston edges it.

I think you'll have to go a little deeper with your analysis than "Foreman was two inches taller".

Foreman was 1 of the strongest HWs ever if not the strongest - hence physical advantages. Its not all about size but how strong you for that size. Foreman had a much much better workrate and his punch speed is underrated. People don't talk about Foreman as a pressure fighter because of his power but hes a HW who would sometimes throw 90punches a round. Thats an insane workrate

I heard the sparing story, but it was sparing before Foremans prime (was he even a pro?) and you don't usually go all out in sparing anyway

This would be a war like Foreman had against Lyle or Frazier or the 1 Liston had against Williams. I think both hit the canvas but Foremans wins out as been the stronger more relentless slugger.

[McGrain]

Foreman was 1 of the strongest HWs ever if not the strongest - hence physical advantages. Its not all about size but how strong you for that size.

Quite right.

If you were putting together a top 5, strongest HW's, you could leave neither of these guys out. Some would say Liston was stronger than Foreman - I don't beleive in arguing about the shades of grey involved, but there isn't much in it. If Foreman is "the strongest HW ever", there is still very little to chose between him and Liston.

As far as functional strength goes, I'd suggest that Liston's superior balance may give him an edge.

Foreman had a much much better workrate and his punch speed is underrated.

But he is most famous for punching himself out, bringing his ring generalship into question, and whilst I agree that the speed his fists travel over a given distance is underated, I should say that the difference in the width of his hardest punches and the width of Liston's hardest punches is the deciding factor.


This would be a war like Foreman had against Lyle or Frazier or the 1 Liston had against Williams. I think both hit the canvas but Foremans wins out as been the stronger more relentless slugger.

I think in the fight you describe, Foreman probably would win. But I don't think that's the fight that Liston would fight or would have to fight.

He has a ram-rod jab and a target begging to be hit by it. It would be a huge factor in the fight, as would the settling of the strength argument.

[RoccoMarciano]

Neither, it's a draw. Why? Because this is only another poll designed to make Clay look good! :lol:

[McGrain]

Neither, it's a draw. Why? Because this is only another poll designed to make Clay look good! :lol:

It's hard to say who the more paranoid - Ali fans or Marciano fans.

[RoccoMarciano]

It's hard to say who the more paranoid - Ali fans or Marciano fans.

I'm not paranoid, but what I said remains true :lol:

[ChrisPontius]

It's hard to say who the more paranoid - Ali fans or Marciano fans.

Joe Louis fans.


:yep

[RoccoMarciano]

Joe Louis fans.


:yep

I rate Louis ahead of both Marciano and Clay... believe it or not.

[McGrain]

Joe Louis fans. :yep

We're to self assured for that Chris ;)

[McGrain]

I rate Louis ahead of both Marciano and Clay... believe it or not.


Let's see your top 10 or 15 Rocco.

[RoccoMarciano]

Let's see your top 10 or 15 Rocco.

It was posted a while back... hasn't changed much. Use the search.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Williams back then was big, Fast and hit hard...not the old shadow that fought Ali.
Chin...even
Teh Lousitown punch could well have been a KO, but there was no count...so the Liston had no idea what time it was.
Leotis Martin....caught an old man comming in...I lost money on that fight too....
Liston was at 209 for the second Ali fight untill it was delayed and came in at 215 which back in the when was a hell of a difference.
I do favor Liston....one of the best jabs of all time, with good skills and having fought a lot better comp. and had no problem of condition. How many rounds...10 or 15?

[Naidah]

I think Liston has the chin, jab and power to beat Foreman, probably late.

[brooklyn1550]

Sonny Liston TKO8 George Foreman

[DocDevil]

Watch both Cleveland Williams-Sonny Liston fights,watch the Ron Lyle George Forman fight.That is about as close to the Liston -Foreman matchup you will get.then,make your choice.I think Liston takes it.

[Beebs]

I don't think Liston could stay behind his jab and box long enough to hold off Foreman, Liston would eventually open up and be drawn into a punching match, one that he would lose to Foremans superior power.

[mcvey]

15 rounds, at their respective best. Who prevails? :smoke


* This matchup has most likely been done before, but IIRC I haven't seen it mentioned since the older batch of posts disappeared some months ago. Either way it's another chance to state your pick n' reasons why.
Ill give liston a slight edge ,he was better defensively ,and inside ,threw shorter punches,and had that pole of a jab,Foreman perhaps has the edge in power and strength,durability about the same,Foreman was better at cutting the ring off ,but that wouldnt be a factor here,so Liston the better boxer scores a late stoppage,though he may have to come off the floor to do it.

[dmt]

Ill give liston a slight edge ,he was better defensively ,and inside ,threw shorter punches,and had that pole of a jab,Foreman perhaps has the edge in power and strength,durability about the same,Foreman was better at cutting the ring off ,but that wouldnt be a factor here,so Liston the better boxer scores a late stoppage,though he may have to come off the floor to do it.:good agreed

[Stonehands89]

--not a difficult pick. Liston would stop Foreman after round 7 sometime.

Whether or not Foreman is 2 inches taller and has more weight is not enough to convince me that Liston is not stronger than he. Liston was enormously strong, as was Foreman, but I give Liston a slight edge. The jab would tame Foreman and there is no way Foreman has a chance of outboxing Liston. Foreman's only chance is a KO and I just don't see that happening. It is more likely that Liston handles Foreman's aggression with his jab and maneuvers him into straight stunners. George gets desperate.... and soon enough he gets tired. And George ain't fighting tired for 8 rounds -not against Liston.

[timmers612]

Stonehands, who are the two guys in your avator?

[Stonehands89]

---The same 2 guys disputed in this thread.