If Pavlik Is "average" Why Is There A Rematch Clause?

[southpaw1974]

Hey guys,

I've been reading comments made by Taylor and Steward characterizing Pavlike as "average" and "ordinary", so my question is: why is there a rematch clause? Another question I have is, why do fighters label their opponents "average" or "overrated" when it will only diminish their accomplishment if and when they beat them? That is just plain stupid!! Even if you believed that, wouldn't it be advantagious to state the opposite so that you will get as much credit as possible after beating him? Who wants their own words to come back and bite them in the ass in regards to getting credit? Only a moron. I'm a huge Taylor fan, but he's not the brightest shirt in the drier as I like to say. I'm surprised at many of the comments that Steward has been making both on and off tv. I've lost more and more respect for him over the past few years. He's a great trainer, seems like a classy guy and he's good in the corner, but when he starts talking outside of that realm, he often says dumb and contradictory things. Your thoughts?

[Zakman]

Because DiBella knows his man doesn't take a good shot, and he is hedging his bets! Why do you think Taylor's been fighting light-hitting welterweights and junior middleweights since he "won" the title?? :huh :yep

[pipe wrenched]

Yep. As far as I know KP is the first challenger to JT's throne to get a rematch clause. JT offered to Winky, and Winky said no, but I don't think it was in thier contract.

[Thread Stealer]

Why do people take trash talk and mind games so literally?

[pipe wrenched]

Then again it could have been thrown in along with the chump change offered to KP for the fight, hoping he'd say to hell with ya'll. But SURPRISE Pavlik said no problem, I'll take the deal.

[JETSKI]

Both Manny & Jermain knows what is in store for them...

Kellys bringing THE HEAT!!!

[LennoxGOAT]

Dumb thread. From Lennox to Wlad to Holyfield, rematch clauses are used all the time against inferior fighters. Of course it will be used against an undefeated, bigtime fighter like KP. Means nothing...

[Decebal]

Dumb thread. From Lennox to Wlad to Holyfield, rematch clauses are used all the time against inferior fighters. Of course it will be used against an undefeated, bigtime fighter like KP. Means nothing...

Do you think Berrio insisted on a rematch clause v. Bute? I don't think so...you might say: who is Berrio anyway? Well, he is the guy that currently has the belt!

[Decebal]

Because DiBella knows his man doesn't take a good shot, and he is hedging his bets! Why do you think Taylor's been fighting light-hitting welterweights and junior middleweights since he "won" the title?? :huh :yep

Good thread; good post!:good

[jsimps]

Dibella was apprehensive in signing this deal. It tooks them (2) mos to even come up with anything. Then it was on, then off, then on again. If KP was not the mandatory challenger, we would not be seeing this fight. In addition, in reading Manny's body language and between the lines, he is not confident in JT winning this fight. Atleast, that is how it appears.

[southpaw1974]

Dumb thread. From Lennox to Wlad to Holyfield, rematch clauses are used all the time against inferior fighters. Of course it will be used against an undefeated, bigtime fighter like KP. Means nothing...

Dumb post. My point was that actions speak louder than words. The fact that there is a rematch clause in the contract speaks volumes of the respect that they have for Pavlik and that he is viewed as a legitamite threat. Do you think there was a rematch clause in the contracts for Spinks and Ouma?

[pipe wrenched]

Dumb post. My point was that actions speak louder than words. The fact that there is a rematch clause in the contract speaks volumes of the respect that they have for Pavlik and that he is viewed as a legitamite threat. Do you think there was a rematch clause in the contracts for Spinks and Ouma?

Nope. I'm 100% to the bone K. Pavlik fan, but the one part of it I really don't get is having the rematch at a catch weight instead of 160 so Taylor would have a chance to regain his title if he lost it. If the rematch is held above 160 @ whatever weight, the title is not on the line.:huh

[pipe wrenched]

Dibella was apprehensive in signing this deal. It tooks them (2) mos to even come up with anything. Then it was on, then off, then on again. If KP was not the mandatory challenger, we would not be seeing this fight. In addition, in reading Manny's body language and between the lines, he is not confident in JT winning this fight. Atleast, that is how it appears.

:good With Kelly's performance on the undercard, winning his SECOND consecutive eliminator, Taylor pretty much had to fight Pavlik or ditch his belt. WBC anyway. In fact, it is a very similiar case to that of Peter/Maskaev.

[jsimps]

:good With Kelly's performance on the undercard, winning his SECOND consecutive eliminator, Taylor pretty much had to fight Pavlik or ditch his belt. WBC anyway. In fact, it is a very similiar case to that of Peter/Maskaev.

Exactly!!!:good

[southpaw1974]

This is my analysis of the fight:

My analysis of Taylor/Pavlik:

This fight is going to be very interesting and potentially exciting. The degree of action in this fight will be contingent upon how Taylor decides to fight. If Taylor holds a lot when Pavlik gets inside and close it could be boring, but if Taylor decides to go toe-to-toe it could be a great fight. They both have decent chins, but I think Pavlik’s chin is better. He took some really good shots from Miranda who can really punch. Taylor was hurt by Hopkins in their first fight at the end. One could argue that it was due to exhaustion, but Hopkins is not a big puncher and should not have been able to hurt even a tired Taylor. Sure he dropped Tarver, but that was a flash knockdown and Tarver didn’t see the punch coming. Again, Taylor’s chin is good, but not as good as Pavlik’s in my opinion.

Taylor can win this fight with his jab. He’s fighting a right handed fighter for the first time in 4 fights and this will make landing the jab a much easier task. His last few fights were again slick southpaws who due to geometry were very difficult to land the jab on (which is Taylor’s best weapon). Credit to Taylor for not losing any of those fights, and for taking on the very best available opposition ---he’s great for boxing. If Taylor fires enough jabs and is able to keep Pavlik off him and avoid getting hit with something big, he will win on points (probably 8 rounds to 4 or 7 rounds to 5).

For Pavlik to win this fight he needs to consistently jab his way in and land some hard punches to the head and body of Taylor. He needs to have a consistently high punch output and throw a profusion of punches for the whole 3 minutes forcing Taylor to throw punches and leave himself open. Taylor’s defense isn’t great, so Pavlik should be able to land on him IF he can find ways around Taylor’s amazing jab. That’s going to be his biggest obstacle ---Taylor’s jab. He needs to find ways to slip the jab and get Taylor into a slugging match and hope that he connects on some really good right hands (the body and head). Pavlik averages around 90 punches per round, and has very good stamina. He will need to be very busy to pull this one off. If he can get inside the jab, he has the power to take Taylor out.

Prediction:

This is a tough fight to predict because I can see it going either way. I sorta lean towards Taylor because of his jab and the level of opposition that he’s faced, but Pavlik is very strong, young, hungry, and also undefeated so that needs to be put into account. It’s either going to be Taylor by decision (7 rounds to 5 or 8 rounds to 4) or Pavlik by TKO. Because Taylor hasn’t had a knockout in a while and is finally facing a right hander, he will probably go for the knockout unless he gets hurt early. This gives Pavlik a great chance of winning. Very tough to predict this one.

[jsimps]

So I guess that means if they have a rematch, Pavlik will be going into the rematch 1-0-1 against Taylor? After the rematch it will be 2-0-1.

No, Pavlik will be 1-0-0 with a KO. After the rematch, he will be 2-0-0, with (2) KO's.

[Dorfmeister]

Jermain said that Miranda was overrated in the Cory Spinks post-fight interview cause "Pantera" had been taken care of after having trashed him all the way up until then and Taylor emphasized later ( in the NYC presser) that Kelly was on the same seat he knew himself to be three years ago when Jermain was 25 years old, a top WBC contender and a middleweight promise against Bernard - surely "The Executioner" diminuished Taylor much more due to the DiBella sub-plot - I guess that Manny and Jermain have the right to enhance their superior top level experience, there's no disrespect here, actually the fight is billed as "Perfect Match" and that already tells a lot about mutual respect...

[Motor City Sam]

Hey guys,

I've been reading comments made by Taylor and Steward characterizing Pavlike as "average" and "ordinary", so my question is: why is there a rematch clause? Another question I have is, why do fighters label their opponents "average" or "overrated" when it will only diminish their accomplishment if and when they beat them? That is just plain stupid!! Even if you believed that, wouldn't it be advantagious to state the opposite so that you will get as much credit as possible after beating him? Who wants their own words to come back and bite them in the ass in regards to getting credit? Only a moron. I'm a huge Taylor fan, but he's not the brightest shirt in the drier as I like to say. I'm surprised at many of the comments that Steward has been making both on and off tv. I've lost more and more respect for him over the past few years. He's a great trainer, seems like a classy guy and he's good in the corner, but when he starts talking outside of that realm, he often says dumb and contradictory things. Your thoughts?

The re-match clause doesn't surprise me, as it's a very common thing when a champ puts his belt on the line.

I'm with you 100%, though, on not understanding why a fighter would downgrade his opponent prior to the fight. If you beat a guy you called a bum, what credit do you get for that? And I don't think it gives you any advantage mentally. I doubt Kelly is sitting there thinking, "Wow, they called me a bum. It must be true. I have no chance."

[Wilhelm]

God, why the fuck does anybody care what fighters and promoters say about fights? It's all a bunch of bullshit hype meant to bring in the WWE crowd. It's all buisness to these guys, and so what they say about it is a buisness decision. Period. Fuck the soap opera hype guys. Just watch the fights.

[southpaw1974]

The re-match clause doesn't surprise me, as it's a very common thing when a champ puts his belt on the line.

I'm with you 100%, though, on not understanding why a fighter would downgrade his opponent prior to the fight. If you beat a guy you called a bum, what credit do you get for that? And I don't think it gives you any advantage mentally. I doubt Kelly is sitting there thinking, "Wow, they called me a bum. It must be true. I have no chance."

Yep, and back to the rematch clause: you are correct that it's not rare for a champ to insert a rematch clause in the contract, but they are typically only inserted in the contract for opponents who are viewed as real threats as opposed to simple mandatory defenses against non-descript/obscure opposition.

[Brickhaus]

Do you think Berrio insisted on a rematch clause v. Bute? I don't think so...you might say: who is Berrio anyway? Well, he is the guy that currently has the belt!

He couldn't insist for a mandatory rematch clause because he was the mandatory. For a counterpoint, see N'dou, who had a rematch clause with Malinaggi that he's been trying to get DiBella to honor.

The reason they don't get rematch clauses against far inferior fighters is that the promoter usually gets options on the opponent instead.

[bachatu]

Hey guys,

I've been reading comments made by Taylor and Steward characterizing Pavlike as "average" and "ordinary", so my question is: why is there a rematch clause? Another question I have is, why do fighters label their opponents "average" or "overrated" when it will only diminish their accomplishment if and when they beat them? That is just plain stupid!! Even if you believed that, wouldn't it be advantagious to state the opposite so that you will get as much credit as possible after beating him? Who wants their own words to come back and bite them in the ass in regards to getting credit? Only a moron. I'm a huge Taylor fan, but he's not the brightest shirt in the drier as I like to say. I'm surprised at many of the comments that Steward has been making both on and off tv. I've lost more and more respect for him over the past few years. He's a great trainer, seems like a classy guy and he's good in the corner, but when he starts talking outside of that realm, he often says dumb and contradictory things. Your thoughts?

Because in Boxing, anything can happen. ref. Douglas vs Tyson or Rahman vs Lewis..
in the case of Rahman vs Lewis, Lewis was smart enough to put in a remach clause and they had to take Rahman to court to get the rematch.

[bachatu]

God, why the fuck does anybody care what fighters and promoters say about fights? It's all a bunch of bullshit hype meant to bring in the WWE crowd. It's all buisness to these guys, and so what they say about it is a buisness decision. Period. Fuck the soap opera hype guys. Just watch the fights.

This is true...it is really irrelevant what anyone says before a fight. In the end, fighters let their fists do the talking in the ring.
How many times have we heard guys say "ive trained harder than ever before" and they run out of gas in the late rounds. "i feel the best ive ever felt" and they look like crap in the ring. "I will knock him out and thats a guarantee" and they dont get a knockout. It doesn't matter... in the end, punches speak louder than words.

[DamonD]

Denegrating your upcoming opponent as being below-par has always seemed moronic to me.

[southpaw1974]

This is true...it is really irrelevant what anyone says before a fight. In the end, fighters let their fists do the talking in the ring.
How many times have we heard guys say "ive trained harder than ever before" and they run out of gas in the late rounds. "i feel the best ive ever felt" and they look like crap in the ring. "I will knock him out and thats a guarantee" and they dont get a knockout. It doesn't matter... in the end, punches speak louder than words.

True, but I think that some fighters no matter how hard they train just don't have good natural stamina and will always get tired down the stretch (ala De La Hoya). I have no doubt that De La Hoya trained as hard as he could for Tito, Hopkins, and Mayweather, but he just doesn't have great inherent stamina. You can only maximize your potential, you can't increase it.

[nervousxtian]

Nothing abnormal here, he probably did have one with Spinks and Ouma as well. You guys are grasping at straws now.

[bachatu]

True, but I think that some fighters no matter how hard they train just don't have good natural stamina and will always get tired down the stretch (ala De La Hoya). I have no doubt that De La Hoya trained as hard as he could for Tito, Hopkins, and Mayweather, but he just doesn't have great inherent stamina. You can only maximize your potential, you can't increase it.

Yeah, but De La Hoya will say he feels great, even though he may be suffering from a heart attack. Look at the fight with Felix Sturm. He said he had prior to the fight he felt great coming into the fight just as he had said on all his other previous bouts. We all know he didn't take that fight and his training for that fight as serious when he had taken off his shirt.

[southpaw1974]

Nothing abnormal here, he probably did have one with Spinks and Ouma as well. You guys are grasping at straws now.

You may be right, but my gut tells me he didn't.

[southpaw1974]

Yeah, but De La Hoya will say he feels great, even though he may be suffering from a heart attack. Look at the fight with Felix Sturm. He said he had prior to the fight he felt great coming into the fight just as he had said on all his other previous bouts. We all know he didn't take that fight and his training for that fight as serious when he had taken off his shirt.

I'm not saying fighters don't bullshit going into a fight, I'm only speaking on the subject of stamina. It's pretty obvious he didn't train that hard for the Sturm fight, and should have lost the decision. When he does train hard he still gets tired down the stretch and it's because he doesn't have great natural stamina. He has enough natural stamina to last 12 rounds after having trained, but not enough to not get tired down the stretch.

[Thread Stealer]

De La Hoya also is kind of tense when he fights. He's never really looked that relaxed in there, which helps you in not fatiguing as much.

[southpaw1974]

De La Hoya also is kind of tense when he fights. He's never really looked that relaxed in there, which helps you in not fatiguing as much.

Very true, and I've made the same point in the past.

[Illmatic]

Why do people take trash talk and mind games so literally?

exactly...is everyone here 12, or do they just act like it.

[southpaw1974]

exactly...is everyone here 12, or do they just act like it.

I think the fighters talking trash are 12 :yep

[Boinko]

Denegrating your upcoming opponent as being below-par has always seemed moronic to me.

Don't worry. If Taylor beats Pavlik, he'll have all sorts of praise for him. That's the way it works.
Remember Mayweather/Gatti?

[Illmatic]

Don't worry. If Taylor beats Pavlik, he'll have all sorts of praise for him. That's the way it works.
Remember Mayweather/Gatti?

or how about EVERY FIGHT THATS EVER BEEN MADE?

have you just started to watch boxing? These guys dont actually ahve grudges towards each other, they hype the fight up and they hype themselves up in the process.

[southpaw1974]

or how about EVERY FIGHT THATS EVER BEEN MADE?

have you just started to watch boxing? These guys dont actually ahve grudges towards each other, they hype the fight up and they hype themselves up in the process.

Usually true, but I really think Vargas hates De La Hoya.

[Illmatic]

Usually true, but I really think Vargas hates De La Hoya.

:lol: Yeah, id agree with that

[Boinko]

or how about EVERY FIGHT THATS EVER BEEN MADE?

have you just started to watch boxing? These guys dont actually ahve grudges towards each other, they hype the fight up and they hype themselves up in the process.

No, I have been watching boxing for many years. I just picked one example. I never said it was the only example.
I don't believe in making such a point, I'm required to list every single example of this kind of behaviour.

Of course, there are also exceptions going into fights. Some fighters remain quite gracious and praise their opponent, keeping the trash talk to a minimum or not at all. Granted though, these guys are in the minority.