Manuel Ortiz.......The Best Bantamweight Of All Time?

[cotto20]

Most people say Eder Jofre is the best Bantamweight of all time.

But Manuel Ortiz most certainly has a argument. Ortiz made 15 defences of his Bantamweight Title and is a 2 time Bantamweight Champion, and in his second reign made 4 defences.

All in all that 19 defences of the Bantamweight Title. A pretty unbeliveable record. Does anyone think Ortiz is the best Bantamweight of all time?

[Addie]

Most people say Eder Jofre is the best Bantamweight of all time.

But Manuel Ortiz most certainly has a argument. Ortiz made 15 defences of his Bantamweight Title and is a 2 time Bantamweight Champion, and in his second reign made 4 defences.

All in all that 19 defences of the Bantamweight Title. A pretty unbeliveable record. Does anyone think Ortiz is the best Bantamweight of all time?

I don't much about the division, but people seem to be agreed that either Jofre, Ortiz, or Olivares are the greatest Bantamweights of all time. I'd be interested in hearing what separates those guys from Canizales, who is criticized for never fighting a truly great fighter at Bantamweight.

[Sweet Pea]

The argument can definitely be made. My only concern was his lack of dedication which lead to his inconsistency. At his best he was easily among the top 3 in the division's history, though. His record surpasses pretty much all others at the weight. Had he a more consistent work ethic I'm not sure there'd be much of an argument.

[Sweet Pea]

I don't much about the division, but people seem to be agreed that either Jofre, Ortiz, or Olivares are the greatest Bantamweights of all time. I'd be interested in hearing what separates those guys from Canizales, who is criticized for never fighting a truly great fighter at Bantamweight.They fought much better opposition, that's really all it comes down to.

[Manassa]

#1 on my list.

#2 - Jofre
#3 - Olivares

[McGrain]

I like Olivares. At his very best he was a machine with great tactical nous.

[Addie]

They fought much better opposition, that's really all it comes down to.

Was there fighters Canizales for whatever reason didn't fight, or was the Bantamweight division void of any world class talent during his reign?

What fights of Ortiz would you recommend me to watch to see the man at his best?

[Robbi]

Billy Mondeo. He was the greatest at this weight.

[Sweet Pea]

Was there fighters Canizales for whatever reason didn't fight, or was the Bantamweight division void of any world class talent during his reign?

What fights of Ortiz would you recommend me to watch to see the man at his best?His third fight with Luis Castillo is available on Youtube. That's the best footage you'll access easily. Great display of in-fighting from both men. There's also his losing effort against Vic Toweel when the title was finally stripped from him.

Canizales's toughest matchup at the time probably would've been Raul "Jibaro" Perez. For whatever reason, this fight and a few others between the top ranking Bantamweights weren't made due to contractual obligations and the like. I don't know the full story myself to be honest, having only heard vague impressions. Maybe Mantequilla stops by and clears things up.

[Tin_Ribs]

I've never actually watched him, but his record alone is a thing of beauty despite the inconsistencies. Constantly crossing swords with the likes of Pep, Dade, Salas, Goldberg, Toweel and others is bound to leave a bloke with the odd blemish on his record. His defeats tended to come in non-title bouts at a quick glance though, other than the Dade and Toweel losses. 23 title fights speaks for itself in that particular day and age.

[Mantequilla]

Pea is right.It was just the usual alphabet shit getting in the way of things between the different champions.Most of them were making enough money defending split belts in front of home crowds as well.

Perez got a lot of hype early on, but quickly became an out of shape, partying drinker.I doubt he was all that concerned with unifying.

[GPater11093]

I have it

1. Jofre
2. Olivares
3. Ortiz

His record is very very impressive probably on par with Jofre nin terms of title defnces longevity (at Bantamweight). However my big problem is what i have seen of him is that he has great heart and a tremendous infighter but i just dont think he is as good as Olivares, Jofre and maybe even Rose on his best day.

Still a very impressive resume, with some good names and the title defences is it the most amount of Linear Bantamweight defences?

[Sweet Pea]

However my big problem is what i have seen of him is that he has great heart and a tremendous infighter but i just dont think he is as good as Olivares, Jofre and maybe even Rose on his best day.
You could say the same of Benny Leonard in comparison to the more modern great LW's that we've seen much more of on film. You can't tell me he looked as good in the footage against Tendler as guys like Duran, Whitaker, Ortiz, etc.

[GPater11093]

You could say the same of Benny Leonard in comparison to the more modern great LW's that we've seen much more of on film. You can't tell me he looked as good in the footage against Tendler as guys like Duran, Whitaker, Ortiz, etc.

No i dont think he looked as good as Duran or Whittaker. I havent seen alot of Ortiz so i dont want to comment. I think he is definitly up there in terms of skill though (Leonard), he really did look good IMO. But i do think Duran and Whittaker are 2 of the 'best' fighters taht ever lived.

'best' meaning in terms of skill and trying to beat them they would be the best. As in the best fighters not necessary the greatest.

But i stick by it i still think Ortiz is good he just dosent blow me away as Jofre or Olivares do. I actually think Ortiz looked very 'modern' on film.

However i was thinking about it and i think Ortiz could beat Olivares by outlasting him on the inside. What a fight taht would be though.

[My2Sense]

I've always thought that bantam was the toughest division to single out an "all time best" candidate in. While there are cases to be made for fighters like Jofre and Ortiz, among others, there are also valid arguments that can just as well be made against them.

I've never supported Olivares' claim to the #1 spot. I think he gets too much of a free pass for his losses to Herrera and his weaknesses in general.

[The Morlocks]

My fav. bantam ever was Pintor. Of all the fights I wish would have happened in my lifetime, 50 yrs. Pintor vs. Chandler is no. 1. I would have gone w/ Pintor and body punching for a ko inside of 10.

[teeto]

I've always thought that bantam was the toughest division to single out an "all time best" candidate in. While there are cases to be made for fighters like Jofre and Ortiz, among others, there are also valid arguments that can just as well be made against them.

I've never supported Olivares' claim to the #1 spot. I think he gets too much of a free pass for his losses to Herrera and his weaknesses in general.
I'm in the same boat as you basically. Ortiz could be the greatest, the best is hard to say. I've normally been swayed towards Jofre but it's tight.

[Drew101]

My fav. bantam ever was Pintor. Of all the fights I wish would have happened in my lifetime, 50 yrs. Pintor vs. Chandler is no. 1. I would have gone w/ Pintor and body punching for a ko inside of 10.

It would have been a hell of a fight, and the winner would have had a good case for a Top 5 instead of a Top 10 ranking. I think, at his best, Joltin' Jeff would have been able to weather the storm and emerge with a decision, however. He looked frail, but could take a hell of a shot, and I think his edge in terms of speed and skill would have made the difference in a close, close fight.

[Drew101]

As for Ortiz, the guy was, if not unbeatable, then certainly quite formidable for a long period of time. Plus, the fact that he had a lot of success at featherweight while reigning at bantamweight gives an indication of just how good he was. He's clearly in the Top 5, all time at the weight at absolute worst.

[The Morlocks]

It would have been a hell of a fight, and the winner would have had a good case for a Top 5 instead of a Top 10 ranking. I think, at his best, Joltin' Jeff would have been able to weather the storm and emerge with a decision, however. He looked frail, but could take a hell of a shot, and I think his edge in terms of speed and skill would have made the difference in a close, close fight.
I think Jeff and Lupe epitomized the two different styles to the t. One inside and one outside. What a fight it would have been. The othe fight I wanted was Pedroza-Sanchez. I pick Pedroza. But as you can see, I like the inside bosy punchers.:smoke

[The Morlocks]

Body punchers. sorry, my typings not very good

[The Morlocks]

how do you get in a chat where people are talking boxing in real time and you can see the responses as they are made? help please w/ this.

[Drew101]

Body punchers. sorry, my typings not very good

No worries. my typing sometimes lacks, too.:D

But I agree, both of those match-ups would have produced high-quality stuff, that's for certain.

[Drew101]

how do you get in a chat where people are talking boxing in real time and you can see the responses as they are made? help please w/ this.

There's a chat section on the home page. Click on the link, and you should be able to get in....although it's generally only used during big fights.

Oh, and welcome to ESB.:good

[The Morlocks]

There's a chat section on the home page. Click on the link, and you should be able to get in....although it's generally only used during big fights.

Oh, and welcome to ESB.:good
Thanks:blurp:D

[Duodenum]

My fav. bantam ever was Pintor. Of all the fights I wish would have happened in my lifetime, 50 yrs. Pintor vs. Chandler is no. 1. I would have gone w/ Pintor and body punching for a ko inside of 10.Do you believe Pintor was the rightful winner of the decision which made him a champion? (Even Lupe was surprised to get the verdict over Zarate.)

[My2Sense]

I'm in the same boat as you basically. Ortiz could be the greatest, the best is hard to say. I've normally been swayed towards Jofre but it's tight.

I probably would solidly back Jofre as the best if he had at least won one of his fights with Harada. It sorta bothers me that he lost twice to the first (and only) real HOF quality opponent he fought at that weight.

[cotto20]

I probably would solidly back Jofre as the best if he had at least won one of his fights with Harada. It sorta bothers me that he lost twice to the first (and only) real HOF quality opponent he fought at that weight.

Interesting.............

[Mantequilla]

Anyone else think Jofre was pretty slow for a Bantam.i'd say he might be the slowest of all the greats at the weight.

[GPater11093]

Anyone else think Jofre was pretty slow for a Bantam.i'd say he might be the slowest of all the greats at the weight.

yeh he was pretty slow especially his feet.

Olvares was quite slow with his punches but his feet were very quick.

[My2Sense]

Anyone else think Jofre was pretty slow for a Bantam.i'd say he might be the slowest of all the greats at the weight.

I thought he looked fairly quick in the first Medel fight.

[anarci]

An old timer&and friend whos knowledge I respect alot Johnny"the Flash"Ortiz who once owned the Historic Main Street Gym (now a parking Lot) along with having a Radio show in the LA area and being on the Board of directors for the WBHOF. He had an Older brother (Phil Ortiz) that fought Manuel Ortiz. He watched Manny many times and Swears that Manuel Ortiz was hands down the best Bantam of all time,and we are talking about a guy who was good friends with Olivares and saw many of the top bantams train at his gym Zarate,Zamora etc.
W

Willie Pep sparred with Manny Ortiz when he was just coming up and he stated that sparring with Manny Ortiz should have been enough to convince him to give up Boxing.

[Flea Man]

Jofre
Olivares
Ortiz
Rose (fantastic skillset rather than glittering resume, which is still decent)
Harada

Is how I have it. Well, how I have it at first thought at 7:00 am.

[Flea Man]

Anyone else think Jofre was pretty slow for a Bantam.i'd say he might be the slowest of all the greats at the weight.

I dunno. He was at times, but he could also whip in a wild shot that would start off slow but turn over fast. Probably why he managed to catch so many opponents. He had quite a slow shuffle feetwise, but knew where to place them.

[The Morlocks]

Do you believe Pintor was the rightful winner of the decision which made him a champion? (Even Lupe was surprised to get the verdict over Zarate.)
Yes. I have that fight on dvd and have watched it many times. It is not the blowout for Zarate that most think it is I believe. Lupe forced the fighjt from the off and I believe won by a round or two.:bbb

[The Morlocks]

a fight taht is great is the tragic Owens fight. It is a disservice to Owens (and sloa Kim vs. mancini ) to not watch this fight and their great effort. because every fighter wants to be remembered for his courage and fighting heart and both these fights show that for the losers, plus are GREAT fights. The owens fight is the best bantam fight I ever saw.

[Sweet Pea]

I probably would solidly back Jofre as the best if he had at least won one of his fights with Harada. It sorta bothers me that he lost twice to the first (and only) real HOF quality opponent he fought at that weight.You can make the argument that he won the rematch.

[The Morlocks]

And speaking of fights i wished would have happened, along w/ Pintor-Chandler, Pedroza-Sanchez, the other one is Frank Fletcher-Mustafa Hamsho. WHAT A WAR that would be. I'd pay $100.00 for a payforview of that one.