Andre Ward W Tdec 11 Mikkel Kessler

[brown bomber]

:rofl
:yep
:good

Uh-oh there goes more JC credibility.

Jones - shot

Hopkins- split decision over a 43 year old career middleweight

Lacy- sadly now a nobody title claiment

Kessler- outclassed in his only other big fight, more convincingly by a far less experienced fighter

I look forward to the next set of excuses from JC ATG reckoners.

46-0... but 1-0 in ATG credible fights

Name one opponent on his ledger that Eubank, Benn or Collins wouldn't have beat.

[Hooch]

I dont think Eubank could beat Eubank, thats impossible

[faisal]

how old was calzaghe when he beat him?

[warrior85]

hopkins was the lightheavyweight champion at the time,so the career middleweight stuff is irrelevant

[Hooch]

how old was calzaghe when he beat him?

24 I think, not sure though

[brown bomber]

hopkins was the lightheavyweight champion at the time,so the career middleweight stuff is irrelevantNot really, a win against Tarver whose had a career of inconsistency is hardly incredible, his other fights at the weight came against light middle Winky Wright and Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik.

His only impressive form came at middleweight where he was a great champion before been beaten twice by Jermain Taylor who was stopped by Frochy :good

[Beeston Brawler]

I was surprised it took Jeff 12 hours to pop in :hi:

[brown bomber]

I was surprised it took Jeff 12 hours to pop in :hi::lol: Was going to save this post for when Froch batters him, but ah to hell with it.... just more evidence against said All time greatness.

[brown bomber]

Oh and before people get all homo about it.

Joe Calzaghe, great British fighter. H2H he matches up well with messrs Eubank, Benn and Collins but he's no better then them, don't believe me - watch a video of the two in their primes and compare.

Then compare opposition.

In terms of 100 greatest fighters ever, he's not even a contender. Just a sports network win machine who beat moderate opposition on losing streaks with the very odd exception.

People will disagree but more and more evidence points to me been right!!!

[46and0]

You are obsessed with Joe Calzaghe. Poor show.

[brown bomber]

You are obsessed with Joe Calzaghe. Poor show.:lol: Reality check

The debate of Joe Calzaghe's ATG status is a never ending discussion- not an obsession dude. Stop crying.

[46and0]

:lol: Reality check

The debate of Joe Calzaghe's ATG status is a never ending discussion- not an obsession dude. Stop crying.

I'm not crying at all. No skin of my nose. But you constantly post about trying to discredit a boxer. Have you got nothing better to do?

:good

[faisal]

say what u want but calzaghe a few years ago would never have gotten outboxed by taylor for 9 rounds before getting lucky and then going on to reciving a gift decision to a fighter of dirrels caliber that would never have happened carl fraud will be undressed and exposed as another junior witter living off a better fighters name

[Martbowski]

This all sounds like a sad vendetta from a man without even a tenth of Calzaghe's talent, drive, personality and appeal.

There is a reason why you're washing the arses of battered boxers in gyms in northern England, whereas Calzaghe sits on his millions earned via a lifetime of success. I'll give you a clue as to what the reason is, it's because Joe Calzaghe doesn't sit on his laptop every single day discussing Jeff Thomas.

[brown bomber]

This all sounds like a sad vendetta from a man without even a tenth of Calzaghe's personality and appeal.:patsch I take exception to this. Alias by any chance? Are You HOF or Mr plow lol.

First thing you do is try and discredit my point of view, despite the fact i'm clearly a more qualified boxing fan then you are :good

He wasn't that good- as proven over and over, and over again. Even Peter Buckley could tell you that. :deal

Oh and your web page is shite :deal

Dull and generic.

[brown bomber]

About me.
I'm a nineteen year old Sports Journalism student with a lot of spare time, and a criminally small amount of ambition for someone so intelligent.

:-)

This is getting better

[brown bomber]

The girls went to a shop to try out scents. Something I’m actually interested in, smelling good is the key to life. I’m sure everyone is extremely interested in my top five scents which in no particular order involve; old spice, baby spice, “brut”, sweat, and Frank Bruno. The last two smell remarkably similar, but one doesn’t turn you into a mentally ill person.
:rofl

Looks like i'm not the only person lacking talent.... This is brilliant. Might just hike this onto the lounge :lol:

[brown bomber]

Gay Anthony made a new cameo, clad in black leather jacket and David Beckham esque curtains from the good old days of 1997 and chipping Neil Sullivan from the halfway line. No real relevance to talking about Gay Anthony, he just really reminds me of a young me.

Forever sex with Miranda would be tainted, not that it wouldn’t be already of course, although from now on there would be insecurity to go with the deep disgust every time his New York penis ejaculated over her pale and forlorn face.

Miranda and Black Robert were still a couple, but were stagnating like an autumn leaf covered in the cum of a sexual predator. This was despite his natty pink shirt and pizza box combination, and him bringing her a cookie emblazoned with the word’s ‘I love you’. What could have been a tender romantic moment was ruined by Miranda guzzling the cookie out of shame, like the aforementioned sex predator wiping his rapey cock on the innocent autumn leaf.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

This is fucking amazing..... You compare yourself to a bender and then mention cock or mens bodies in nearly every other paragraph. Then disguss me cleaning arses :lol:

Your Mr Plow aren't you!!!!!

I know it you little cock hound. :deal

[Diablo]

Jeff you seriously need to get a life. Obsessed with Calzaghe so the point its down right sad.

[Martbowski]

Gay Anthony made a new cameo, clad in black leather jacket and David Beckham esque curtains from the good old days of 1997 and chipping Neil Sullivan from the halfway line. No real relevance to talking about Gay Anthony, he just really reminds me of a young me.

Forever sex with Miranda would be tainted, not that it wouldn’t be already of course, although from now on there would be insecurity to go with the deep disgust every time his New York penis ejaculated over her pale and forlorn face.

Miranda and Black Robert were still a couple, but were stagnating like an autumn leaf covered in the cum of a sexual predator. This was despite his natty pink shirt and pizza box combination, and him bringing her a cookie emblazoned with the word’s ‘I love you’. What could have been a tender romantic moment was ruined by Miranda guzzling the cookie out of shame, like the aforementioned sex predator wiping his rapey cock on the innocent autumn leaf.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

This is fucking amazing..... You compare yourself to a bender and then mention cock or mens bodies in nearly every other paragraph. Then disguss me cleaning arses :lol:

Your Mr Plow aren't you!!!!!

I know it you little cock hound. :deal
Exactly the small town mentality of a man into boxing. If I was gay, would that be such a crime? In your homophobic mind perhaps it is, but to people whose brains aren't clouded by constant 'blows' to the head, it's not such a bad thing, as we live in a pretty open minded world.

[rooq]

jeff, you should have posted this in the general forum.

they'd have lapped it up like dogs.

like dogs i say!

[brown bomber]

Jeff you seriously need to get a life. Obsessed with Calzaghe so the point its down right sad. Why because I question his credability? Do you not feel any fighters are over-rated.

[brown bomber]

Exactly the small town mentality of a man into boxing. If I was gay, would that be such a crime? In your homophobic mind perhaps it is, but to people whose brains aren't clouded by constant 'blows' to the head, it's not such a bad thing, as we live in a pretty open minded world. No its disgusting. You should stick to MMA, or kill yourself for disgracing your family.

On a more serious note, I'm pretty open minded when it comes to fudge packers but seeming as you insulted me first I take great pleasure in taken the piss out of your so camp writing. Even your Haye article reaks of gayness. Perhaps you should write in a less cock-obsessed way then normal people may enjoy what you've written too. :good

[brown bomber]

jeff, you should have posted this in the general forum.

they'd have lapped it up like dogs.

like dogs i say!

Its a valid point. I bet even Calzaghe himself would agree. Fact is Diablo you've not even read through the thread properly.

[TFFP]

I couldn't give a toss what it means for Calzaghe, its more worrying that on this forum the first thing people think of when two fighters in the ring that are not Joe Calzaghe is Joe Calzaghe.

What I was impressed with was the poise and skill of Ward, he was terrific and won fair and square. The headbutts and clinching is nothing but excuses.

[brown bomber]

I couldn't give a toss what it means for Calzaghe, its more worrying that on this forum the first thing people think of when two fighters in the ring that are not Joe Calzaghe is Joe Calzaghe.

What I was impressed with was the poise and skill of Ward, he was terrific and won fair and square. The headbutts and clinching is nothing but excuses. Not really TFFP, its a relevant topic, such is the importance of Kesslers success to Joe's legacy. That said I'm sorry for you having one of your fave fighters exposed in such a way- I did say he had very poor head movement and was embarassingly one dimensional.

Maybe you can see now I was right, funny how the only thing I seem to get wrong is my opinion of Calzaghe apparently. :yep

[rooq]

diablo?

actually i'm not arsed either way. i only made the comment as there were similiar posts cropping up immediately after the fight in the general forum.

[TFFP]

Not really TFFP, its a relevant topic, such is the importance of Kesslers success to Joe's legacy. That said I'm sorry for you having one of your fave fighters exposed in such a way- I did say he had very poor head movement and was embarassingly one dimensional.

Maybe you can see now I was right, funny how the only thing I seem to get wrong is my opinion of Calzaghe apparently. :yep
You don't need to condescend me, I picked Ward to win the fight, albeit a lot closer, and I know very well what his weaknesses are. It's not your opinion on Calzaghe that winds people up its the fact you bleat on about it as Betty would Hatton.

[brown bomber]

diablo?

actually i'm not arsed either way. i only made the comment as there were similiar posts cropping up immediately after the fight in the general forum.:good I was aiming my reply at Diablo not you.... but acknowledging your post

[Rebel-INS]

This all sounds like a sad vendetta from a man without even a tenth of Calzaghe's talent, drive, personality and appeal.

There is a reason why you're washing the arses of battered boxers in gyms in northern England, whereas Calzaghe sits on his millions earned via a lifetime of success. I'll give you a clue as to what the reason is, it's because Joe Calzaghe doesn't sit on his laptop every single day discussing Jeff Thomas.

:lol:

[brown bomber]

You don't need to condescend me, I picked Ward to win the fight, albeit a lot closer, and I know very well what his weaknesses are. It's not your opinion on Calzaghe that winds people up its the fact you bleat on about it as Betty would Hatton.But me arguing his standing as the greatest fighter ever from the UK is entirely relevant and everytime evidence is found to the contrary then i'm going to bring it up aren't i... condescend? I was actually been nice- I am gutted when my fave fighters get beat. Don't be a baby.

[Losfer_Words]

Seriously, Jeff, what is your problem with Calzaghe? I have never been a big fan of his and that is the reason why I hardly ever comment on him - it's that simple. The fact that I am not a fan means I couldn't give a toss about talking about him and that also means that I don't go out of my way to talk about him or take cheap shots at him from across a keyboard. With you, however, it's personal. Why? Did you once meet him and he was rude to you or mocked you, or are you just jealous of his achievements?

I really don't understand the constant berating of him from your end. It makes no sense whatsoever - there must be an ulterior issue with you and JC, IMHO:good.

[TFFP]

But me arguing his standing as the greatest fighter ever from the UK is entirely relevant and everytime evidence is found to the contrary then i'm going to bring it up aren't i... condescend? I was actually been nice- I am gutted when my fave fighters get beat. Don't be a baby.
'I did say he was blah blah blah'. You think I don't know what when I have his entire career? You spoke to me as if I'm the typical cheerleader that graces this forum that won't acknowledge any flaws in his fighter and picks him against Jesus. When that is not the case, I've spoken at length in Kessler topics about his flaws and picked Ward to win the damn fight so don't come at me like that! :-(

Most people don't hold him as the greatest from the UK so that is bullshit in itself. That's a straw man argument.

[Hooch]

Why because I question his credability? Do you not feel any fighters are over-rated.

C'mon Jeff let it go, would Ward beat Calzaghe? on last nights performance yes imo, he looked very special despite the shitty ref helping him out. Will be interesting to see if Ward can take his show on the road though.

However Calzaghe has nothing to do with the super 6 and beat the only fighters at his weight available at the time, I dont know what you mean exactly when you bleat on about ATG and top 100 but he is the best British fighter I have ever seen FACT, and ive been a hard core fight fan for 25 years (I also boxed for 10).

[brown bomber]

Seriously, Jeff, what is your problem with Calzaghe? I have never been a big fan of his and that is the reason why I hardly ever comment on him - it's that simple. The fact that I am not a fan means I couldn't give a toss about talking about him and that also means that I don't go out of my way to talk about him or take cheap shots at him from across a keyboard. With you, however, it's personal. Why? Did you once meet him and he was rude to you or mocked you, or are you just jealous of his achievements?

I really don't understand the constant berating of him from your end. It makes no sense whatsoever - there must be an ulterior issue with you and JC, IMHO:good.


'I did say he was blah blah blah'. You think I don't know what when I have his entire career? You spoke to me as if I'm the typical cheerleader that graces this forum that won't acknowledge any flaws in his fighter and picks him against Jesus. When that is not the case, I've spoken at length in Kessler topics about his flaws and picked Ward to win the damn fight so don't come at me like that! :-(

Most people don't hold him as the greatest from the UK so that is bullshit in itself. That's a straw man argument.

Ok constantly people do argue on here that he is one of the all time greats- FACT.

I have no problem at all with Calzaghe, a likeable bloke and a damned good fighter. But everytime some ill educated fan declares him the greatest I find it discredits all the other fighters who worked incredibly hard to form their legacies.

Calzaghe is an amazing fighter- brilliant at executing his southpaw style, almost to perfection, but he was no better then the likes of Benn, Eubank and Collins. Calzaghe's career was largely irrelevant until the very late stages and he spent most of his time been a plastic champion in a poor division. He did eventually step up when the time was right but against middleweights, never will be's and shot ATG's if every fighter were to follow his blueprint to success boxing would cease.

One decent win does not make a ATG fighter.

[brown bomber]

C'mon Jeff let it go, would Ward beat Calzaghe? on last nights performance yes imo, he looked very special despite the shitty ref helping him out. Will be interesting to see if Ward can take his show on the road though.

However Calzaghe has nothing to do with the super 6 and beat the only fighters at his weight available at the time, I dont know what you mean exactly when you bleat on about ATG and top 100 but he is the best British fighter I have ever seen FACT, and ive been a hard core fight fan for 25 years (I also boxed for 10).Ok thats your opinion and with respect I don't agree at all. I also don't think Ward would have beaten Calzaghe.

[TFFP]

Ok constantly people do argue on here that he is one of the all time greats- FACT.

I have no problem at all with Calzaghe, a likeable bloke and a damned good fighter. But everytime some ill educated fan declares him the greatest I find it discredits all the other fighters who worked incredibly hard to form their legacies.

Calzaghe is an amazing fighter- brilliant at executing his southpaw style, almost to perfection, but he was no better then the likes of Benn, Eubank and Collins. Calzaghe's career was largely irrelevant until the very late stages and he spent most of his time been a plastic champion in a poor division. He did eventually step up when the time was right but against middleweights, never will be's and shot ATG's if every fighter were to follow his blueprint to success boxing would cease.

One decent win does not make a ATG fighter.
I'm just not entirely sure who you think you are arguing with on here. You are probably better making this argument on the BBC boards because very few think he's the greatest British fighter of all-time let alone up there with the Ali's. 'One' of the great British fighters is quite right, as he clearly is. We've not had that many great fighters that we can afford to say Calzaghe isn't one of them.

[Dunky McCafferty]

Cant we all just... get along?

[Hooch]

Ok thats your opinion and with respect I don't agree at all. I also don't think Ward would have beaten Calzaghe.

So you only disregard calzaghe because of his opponents/resume but although Frankie W is one hell of a cherry picking mofo who could Joe have fought??

Toney - Fat fucker went to light heavy and beyond before the fight was possible

Jones - To busy raping HBO money for fighting plonkers and the risk to reward ratio was never there for either fighter as Yanks think any non yank fighting outside of Yanksville is a bum.

Eubank - Not that past it at all when you consider Eubanks performances after the fight plus Calzaghe was on the way up and had never been tested. If you disregard this win then you can disregard Collins' wins over Eubank aswell.

Benn - To small imo and did not have the same criplling power at the weight like he did at middle. Has also admited he would not have beaten Calzaghe.

Collins - Fight was made date was set Joe was there. Not sure of the ins and outs but thems the facts.

[brown bomber]

So you only disregard calzaghe because of his opponents/resume but although Frankie W is one hell of a cherry picking mofo who could Joe have fought??

Toney - Fat fucker went to light heavy and beyond before the fight was possible

Jones - To busy raping HBO money for fighting plonkers and the risk to reward ratio was never there for either fighter as Yanks think any non yank fighting outside of Yanksville is a bum.

Eubank - Not that past it at all when you consider Eubanks performances after the fight plus Calzaghe was on the way up and had never been tested. If you disregard this win then you can disregard Collins' wins over Eubank aswell.

Benn - To small imo and did not have the same criplling power at the weight like he did at middle. Has also admited he would not have beaten Calzaghe.

Collins - Fight was made date was set Joe was there. Not sure of the ins and outs but thems the facts.

Hooch done a break down of fighters he could have fought in the past- the list is pretty long. Calzaghe was a great brit your right, but not the greatest and not one of the top fighters in the sport of all time for me.

[Hooch]

Cant we all just... get along?

Haha, only reason i'm involved in this thread is because I normally enjoy Jeffs threads/posts (i'm more of a reader than a poster) but just can not get my head round the Calzaghe thing :?. Plus its sunday i'm bored shitless on my own in the house and im waiting for the darts final to start.

[dan-b]

I couldn't give a toss what it means for Calzaghe, its more worrying that on this forum the first thing people think of when two fighters in the ring that are not Joe Calzaghe is Joe Calzaghe.

What I was impressed with was the poise and skill of Ward, he was terrific and won fair and square. The headbutts and clinching is nothing but excuses.

Well said. I was very impressed with him and I'm almost tempted to make him my pick to win the tourny. But I think I'll stick with AA for now.

[TFFP]

Well said. I was very impressed with him and I'm almost tempted to make him my pick to win the tourny. But I think I'll stick with AA for now.
I'm sure they're probably joint favourites or something. I thought from the beginning the winner would come from this fight so I'm sticking with that.

[Dunky McCafferty]

Haha, only reason i'm involved in this thread is because I normally enjoy Jeffs threads/posts (i'm more of a reader than a poster) but just can not get my head round the Calzaghe thing :?. Plus its sunday i'm bored shitless on my own in the house and im waiting for the darts final to start.

I was just having a wee joke mate, since I have turned over a new leaf here & stopped being a cunt I thought it would be funny if me of all people told everyone to get along:D

Debate away fellas, im bored myself stuck in the house & enjoying everyones posts anyway:good

[Hooch]

Hooch done a break down of fighters he could have fought in the past- the list is pretty long. Calzaghe was a great brit your right, but not the greatest and not one of the top fighters in the sport of all time for me.

These are the only Sup Mids I can think of tbh, Liles was average, Ottke never left Germany, Froch came along to late

[dan-b]

I'm sure they're probably joint favourites or something. I thought from the beginning the winner would come from this fight so I'm sticking with that.

He'll need to fight with more control if and when he faces AA though. There were times, when he was on the attack, he left himself wide open. We all know what happens when you do that against AA.

[dan-b]

I was just having a wee joke mate, since I have turned over a new leaf here & stopped being a cunt I thought it would be funny if me of all people told everyone to get along:D

Debate away fellas, im bored myself stuck in the house & enjoying everyones posts anyway:good

I like your avatar, who did that? Reckon we'll see him back in the ring?

[TFFP]

He'll need to fight with more control if and when he faces AA though. There were times, when he was on the attack, he left himself wide open. We all know what happens when you do that against AA.
I think that was at the point he'd taken a lot out of Kessler and knew the situation in there. He knew where Kessler's punches were coming from, knew he was lacking accuracy and not making him pay when he was on the retreat so he took a chance. His approach starting the fight was spot on and indicative of a smart fighter, I'm sure he knows what he has to do against AA.

[Hooch]

He'll need to fight with more control if and when he faces AA though. There were times, when he was on the attack, he left himself wide open. We all know what happens when you do that against AA.

Good point, can see Ward making the adjustments and wont take chances like he did against Kessler, he wont have the kind of control he had against Kes for one thing.
AA is so difficult to fathom for the opponent and yet has such a simple style (mind you I had similar opinions of Kessler). I think Wards body work and Athleticism can see him land enough to get a decision. Hope they meet in the final.

[slip&counter]

This Calzaghe hate must stop. The dude is a certified hof and beat every guy that was suppose to beat him. JC was a great fighter who gives the greats all they can handle prime for prime.

Joe had a style that nobody could figure out. He box circles around some big names mid way through the fight to the bell. One of my best moments was when Jeff Lacy got raped by Joe like a prostitute in a back alley lol Bernard for the 1st time ever! got tired from Joe's tricky style. Joe is a great fighter and he dominated his division for 13 years so he's got my support!

We're supposed to be proper fans, we're supposed to look past records, hype and resumes and to see the real meat and bone of this thing and thats the skillset. Just look at Joe's fightgame forget his resume for a second. Like i said he gives hell to some of your favourites.

[brown bomber]

Haha, only reason i'm involved in this thread is because I normally enjoy Jeffs threads/posts (i'm more of a reader than a poster) but just can not get my head round the Calzaghe thing :?. Plus its sunday i'm bored shitless on my own in the house and im waiting for the darts final to start. The Calzaghe thing seems to be a sticking point with a lot of regulars but I can't pretend for him to be better then he is just to make everyone happy. I have nothing against the man, he is a brilliant fighter and I wish I had a millionth of his talent and stamina but thats got nothing to do with my opinion of him in terms of greatness. Everytime my initial point (Calzaghe not been an ATG) then I'm going to re-assert my point. Same way if Kessler had have bossed Ward then there would have been some lunatics using the result to provide backing to their case. :good

[xoborp]

This all sounds like a sad vendetta from a man without even a tenth of Calzaghe's talent, drive, personality and appeal.

There is a reason why you're washing the arses of battered boxers in gyms in northern England, whereas Calzaghe sits on his millions earned via a lifetime of success. I'll give you a clue as to what the reason is, it's because Joe Calzaghe doesn't sit on his laptop every single day discussing Jeff Thomas.
:good:happy:good

[threethirteen]

I don't see any argument for Calzaghe as an ATG. Kessler was a good win and won't lose to many other SMWs out there. Ward, on that showing, is simply deserving of a top three ranking.

the only guys who are going to trouble him are Abraham, Bute, and Dirrell. I think we're watching a future SMW/LHW elite developing.

[ryanm8655]

I was waiting for one of these threads to appear and tbh Jeff you make a good point. I do think he deserves to be higher than Benn/Eubank/Collins though, both h2h and in terms of resume.

If he wants to prove himself an ATG then he definitely needs to come out of retirement and beat this new crop of supermiddle's.

Kessler was not at his best last night imo but if he was a great fighter he'd still have been able to adapt to whatever situation he found himself and he had no answers. I fancy him to beat Froch though.

[Top Dog]

Think Kessler took him too lightly??

[Losfer_Words]

I think we're watching a future SMW/LHW elite developing.

:good I'm not normally one for hype, but Ward hugely impressed me last night. Kessler couldn't get going at all and Ward looked incredibly comfortable with, let's remember, the man everyone (including myself) was saying is now the dominant force at 168.

Calzaghe is irrelevant, on last night's performance we may well have seen his heir apparent in the SMW division.

[royalt0208]

Joe was one of the reasons that I got into boxing but the more I learnt the less I rated and respected him. The thing about Joe is that there are so many if's and but's when it comes to analysing his career. But what he did achieve is simple lots of good little achievments say what you like but getting to 46-0, a lineal two weight champ, win all 4 belts at 168 and having 20+ defense's are very good achievments but not great he lacks the great wins for that. Greates Super Middleweight probably, top 50 ATG no.

[Diablo]

The man is retired so why cant ppl just leave it alone?

Hes overated by some and underrated by many as well (Jeff). He had a great career and in terms of ability, resume and longevity he clearly ranks higher than Benn, Eubank and Collins....IMO.

He could only beat who was willing to fight him...the Lacy win paved the way for fights with Kessler, Hopkins and Jones but before then who was there?

The Eric Lucas's and Markus Beyers wouldnt have done much to enhance his legacy. Ottke wasnt interested..only lacy and Kessler had the balls to step up.

For the most part Joe had Hopkins below him and Jones above him and neither had any reason or willingness to face him.

[threethirteen]

In fairness, Diablo, after the Lacy win he fought Bika. Now Bika wasn't a bad fighter, but he could surely have looked for a more interesting fight?

[Primadonna Kool]

Why do you suck Michael Gomez's cock..?

But Bash Joe Calzaghe all the time..?

[Mookhound]

ermmmm... this is all a bit weird. Calzaghe was very, very good. But in Ward we're witnessing the early stages of a genuine great. That really takes nothing away from Calzaghe.

I stick with my original forecast: the final will be two from Ward, Froch and Abraham, with Ward winning it by a mile.

[Diablo]

In fairness, Diablo, after the Lacy win he fought Bika. Now Bika wasn't a bad fighter, but he could surely have looked for a more interesting fight?

Maybe..but do you really expect someone to participate in super fights in every single outing? It just isnt possible. My point was...after the Lacy fight he was on the map and other names were willing to face him.

[Dunky McCafferty]

I like your avatar, who did that? Reckon we'll see him back in the ring?

Thanks Dan, I just found it by accident when I was looking for a new avatar pic!
Funny thing is though, the guy who did the drawing, he had lots more caricatures, but most werent very good! He got Scotty down to a tee though:D
As for him coming back? I doubt it very much. I would love to see him come back, we can but dream!

[Grant1]

:rofl
:yep
:good

Uh-oh there goes more JC credibility.

Jones - shot

Hopkins- split decision over a 43 year old career middleweight

Lacy- sadly now a nobody title claiment

Kessler- outclassed in his only other big fight, more convincingly by a far less experienced fighter

I look forward to the next set of excuses from JC ATG reckoners.

46-0... but 1-0 in ATG credible fights

Name one opponent on his ledger that Eubank, Benn or Collins wouldn't have beat.

How does your logic work Jeffro?

You've said time and again that whatever Kessler acheives as no bearing on Joe's resume/credibility.

As soon as Kessler loses though you turn all of that on it's head and go all hypocritical on us :lol:

No?

[Utter1]

So you only disregard calzaghe because of his opponents/resume but although Frankie W is one hell of a cherry picking mofo who could Joe have fought??

Toney - Fat fucker went to light heavy and beyond before the fight was possible

Jones - To busy raping HBO money for fighting plonkers and the risk to reward ratio was never there for either fighter as Yanks think any non yank fighting outside of Yanksville is a bum.

Eubank - Not that past it at all when you consider Eubanks performances after the fight plus Calzaghe was on the way up and had never been tested. If you disregard this win then you can disregard Collins' wins over Eubank aswell.

Benn - To small imo and did not have the same criplling power at the weight like he did at middle. Has also admited he would not have beaten Calzaghe.

Collins - Fight was made date was set Joe was there. Not sure of the ins and outs but thems the facts.



:patsch oh dear oh dear

[D-MAC]

The man is retired so why cant ppl just leave it alone?

Hes overated by some and underrated by many as well (Jeff). He had a great career and in terms of ability, resume and longevity he clearly ranks higher than Benn, Eubank and Collins....IMO.

He could only beat who was willing to fight him...the Lacy win paved the way for fights with Kessler, Hopkins and Jones but before then who was there?

The Eric Lucas's and Markus Beyers wouldnt have done much to enhance his legacy. Ottke wasnt interested..only lacy and Kessler had the balls to step up.

For the most part Joe had Hopkins below him and Jones above him and neither had any reason or willingness to face him.

All good points.

As you say the competition just wasn't there, and of those that were there some just didn't want to or couldn't fight him for whatever reason. Added to that, others just wouldn't have added anything to his legacy.

I still think he should have tried his hand at a Dawson fight rather than take on Roy Jones, but when you think about the risk/reward disparity between the two fights then it could have been the right decision.

[Utter1]

Joe Calzaghe is deffo top 10 in the super-middle division BUT then again the division is 20 years old.......and happens to have some of the least talent in there, only untill recently does it look packed with talent now.

Joe won the Hopkins fight by one round on my scorecard, i also tend to think that Hopkins chose the wrong strategy for the fight as he threw to little.

Who cares, we all know that if Calzaghe had actuallly BEEN THE MAN at super middle for 10 years as he claims.....would have lost, as there is always someone looking for you when your at the top.

2006 to 2008 he gained media attention and his opponent level was far greater but then we have seen others beat the likes of Lacy, Hopkins, Kessler and Jones.....so what he did was not out of this world.

[Grant1]

Joe Calzaghe is deffo top 10 in the super-middle division

:yikes

[Utter1]

Kessler is still a good fighter and can still one day achieve greatness, you never know.

Even in this fight he looked good, just Ward was better.

[Utter1]

:yikes


Course he is........but that dosent mean he is an all time great.

In fact i can only think of Roy Jones and James toney who campaigned at that weight who were all time greats.

[icemax]

Eubank - Not that past it at all when you consider Eubanks performances after the fight plus Calzaghe was on the way up and had never been tested. If you disregard this win then you can disregard Collins' wins over Eubank aswell.


WTF:huh...Eubank didn't win a fight after this, he was well past it

[Grant1]

Course he is........but that dosent mean he is an all time great.

In fact i can only think of Roy Jones and James toney who campaigned at that weight who were all time greats.

He's in the top 1 at SMW.

[icemax]

ermmmm... this is all a bit weird. Calzaghe was very, very good. But in Ward we're witnessing the early stages of a genuine great. That really takes nothing away from Calzaghe.

I stick with my original forecast: the final will be two from Ward, Froch and Abraham, with Ward winning it by a mile.

How can you say this?? Prior to saturday night he hadn't even fought anyone in his own countries top ten. He looked ragged at times against Kessler, and someone with power and a bit of patience will take the man apart..Abraham will kill him if he lunges in against him like he did against Kessler. Lets not start blowing smoke up the blokes arse just yet:deal

[threethirteen]

ermmmm... this is all a bit weird. Calzaghe was very, very good. But in Ward we're witnessing the early stages of a genuine great. That really takes nothing away from Calzaghe.

I stick with my original forecast: the final will be two from Ward, Froch and Abraham, with Ward winning it by a mile.

I think we're witnessing a guy who will operate at an elite level round SMW/LHW, but let's not get excited just on the basis of beating Kessler, who while excellent had already shown he could be outboxed when an opponent changed up their approach constantly.

As Icemax said, he got over-confident and the difference was that kessler wasn't able to punish him for it. He missed wildly, lunging with big shots and against Abraham, that would spell doom.

We need to see how he looks in another few fights against guys that will pose him different problems. I think he'd struggle with Bute or Dirrell quite badly, and I think Abraham takes him out.

[Hooch]

:patsch oh dear oh dear

Well broke down, will have to rethink all of my opinions after such an in depth reply

[Hooch]

WTF:huh...Eubank didn't win a fight after this, he was well past it

Had 2 wars with Carl Thompson at Cruiser, could have won them both, excellent fights.

[icemax]

could have won them both,

But he didn't...the man was finished

[achillesthegreat]

A record with Eubank, Hopkins, Jones, two undefeated champs, numerous former champs etc

Deserves respect.

[Hooch]

But he didn't...the man was finished

No he wasn't

[Cobbler]

Not really, a win against Tarver whose had a career of inconsistency is hardly incredible, his other fights at the weight came against light middle Winky Wright and Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik.

His only impressive form came at middleweight where he was a great champion before been beaten twice by Jermain Taylor who was stopped by Frochy :good

Would be interested in seeing your idea of Hopkins' best five career wins.

[icemax]

No he wasn't

OK, i'll humour you, how close to prime (as a percentage) do you think Eubank was when he took on both Calzaghe and Thompson?

[Hooch]

OK, i'll humour you, how close to prime (as a percentage) do you think Eubank was when he took on both Calzaghe and Thompson?

Thanks for humoring me, Carl Thompson was a very good fighter and Eubank gave him 2 very good fights, Thompson was in his prime imo and much the bigger man. Eubank put Thompson down in the first fight and nearly had him out, the same Thompson who took some serious digs off D Haye. Hard to judge Eubank as far as prime years because he was never quite the same after Watson 2.

Any win over Eubank is a good win, FACT. He was world class for his entire career. Lots of fighters go on way after they're prime but this was not the case with Eubank, its quite concievable that all his losses (Thompson at cruiser, JC and Collins) were to men who could have beaten him in his prime so very hard to judge exactly when that was.

[dan-b]

Thanks for humoring me, Carl Thompson was a very good fighter and Eubank gave him 2 very good fights, Thompson was in his prime imo and much the bigger man. Eubank put Thompson down in the first fight and nearly had him out, the same Thompson who took some serious digs off D Haye. Hard to judge Eubank as far as prime years because he was never quite the same after Watson 2.

Any win over Eubank is a good win, FACT. He was world class for his entire career. Lots of fighters go on way after they're prime but this was not the case with Eubank, its quite concievable that all his losses (Thompson at cruiser, JC and Collins) were to men who could have beaten him in his prime so very hard to judge exactly when that was.

Don't you think Eubank having to boil down in weight for the fight affected him quite significantly?

[Hooch]

Don't you think Eubank having to boil down in weight for the fight affected him quite significantly?

Possibly yes, he was meant to fight Mark Prince at L Heavy until about 2 weeks before, Eubank never used this as an excuse though and he was known for crashing weight through his whole career. He was very complimentary of JC afterwards saying he could see why Collins wanted no part of him.

[dan-b]

Possibly yes, he was meant to fight Mark Prince at L Heavy until about 2 weeks before, Eubank never used this as an excuse though and he was known for crashing weight through his whole career. He was very complimentary of JC afterwards saying he could see why Collins wanted no part of him.

I remember. I wasn't trying to detract from JC's win particularly, just thought it was worth mentioning. For me JC will always be remembered as an underachiever who didn't have a great love for the sport. His lack of confidence held him back but he still had a decent career. I wasn't a fan but he did give us some good fights, the Brewer one being my favourite.

[Utter1]

Well broke down, will have to rethink all of my opinions after such an in depth reply


Your so funny, you comedian! Just because your barbaric, obtuse, insolent, impertinent and brazen analysis of said fighters in your little black & white, impudent, presumptions article which in an attempt to somehow convey a distorted, twisted and perverse view point that a certain overrated, over-hyped fighter is somehow better by making the most pedantic, glossed over, unfathomable assumptions known to man then you dear sir, are in need of a reality check by god himself.

[Hooch]

Your so funny, you comedian! Just because your barbaric, obtuse, insolent, impertinent and brazen analysis of said fighters in your little black & white, impudent, presumptions article which in an attempt to somehow convey a distorted, twisted and perverse view point that a certain overrated, over-hyped fighter is somehow better by making the most pedantic, glossed over, unfathomable assumptions known to man then you dear sir, are in need of a reality check by god himself.

Fair play :good

[Hooch]

I remember. I wasn't trying to detract from JC's win particularly, just thought it was worth mentioning. For me JC will always be remembered as an underachiever who didn't have a great love for the sport. His lack of confidence held him back but he still had a decent career. I wasn't a fan but he did give us some good fights, the Brewer one being my favourite.

Know what you mean re confidence, he seemed to believe in himself more and more as his career went on. He was hardly screaming for Roy Jones when Roy was king of S Middles and who can blame him really, I honestly believe he could have pushed a prime Jones all the way though (close ish points maybe) which may have done more for his legacy than beating the older version.

[brown bomber]

Would be interested in seeing your idea of Hopkins' best five career wins.

1. W Rsf 12 Felix Trinidad 40-0 (33) WBA Middleweight Champion, fresh off the back of the William Joppy destruction and the Vargas win. Amazing win against a top dangerman and All time great in their prime.

2. W Rsf 11 Glenn Johnson 32-0 , inflicts the only stoppage defeat on, and outclasses the future world light heavyweight champion and Ring Fighter of the year.

3. W KO 9 Oscar De La Hoya, weighing just over the light middleweight limit, Hopkins scores underrated win over All time great De La Hoya, the only genuine stoppage loss of the golden boys career.

4. W PTS 12 Ronald Wright, Having shut out Felix Trinidad, Ike Quartey and Shane Mosley, plus drawn with middleweight champ Jermain Taylor Winky was out classed in a maul. His first indisputible loss.

5. W PTS 12 Keith Holmes, Holmes was under-rated- a southpaw with some great wins. Hopkins dominates and outclasses the top middleweight 'contender'.

Nothing on Calzaghe's resume comes close to the top five wins on Hopkins resume, apart from the questionable Hopkins win itself.

[safc1990]

Is Dan684 banned? Thought he would have contributed something to this by now.

[threethirteen]

1. W Rsf 12 Felix Trinidad 40-0 (33) WBA Middleweight Champion, fresh off the back of the William Joppy destruction and the Vargas win. Amazing win against a top dangerman and All time great in their prime.

2. W Rsf 11 Glenn Johnson 32-0 , inflicts the only stoppage defeat on, and outclasses the future world light heavyweight champion and Ring Fighter of the year.

3. W KO 9 Oscar De La Hoya, weighing just over the light middleweight limit, Hopkins scores underrated win over All time great De La Hoya, the only genuine stoppage loss of the golden boys career.

4. W PTS 12 Ronald Wright, Having shut out Felix Trinidad, Ike Quartey and Shane Mosley, plus drawn with middleweight champ Jermain Taylor Winky was out classed in a maul. His first indisputible loss.

5. W PTS 12 Keith Holmes, Holmes was under-rated- a southpaw with some great wins. Hopkins dominates and outclasses the top middleweight 'contender'.

Nothing on Calzaghe's resume comes close to the top five wins on Hopkins resume, apart from the questionable Hopkins win itself.

I'd put the Pavlik win in place of the boring decision against Winky. Winky was pushing his effectiveness as a MW, really being a LMW at his finest. He looked fat at 170. Pavlik was a more dangerous fighter at the weight and was widely favoured to retire Hopkins. The performance and the context make it much more impressive.

[dan-b]

I like the Echols wins too. The Joppy beatdown was also pretty nice. Let's not forget Tarver.

[Raashid]

4. W PTS 12 Ronald Wright, Having shut out Felix Trinidad, Ike Quartey and Shane Mosley, plus drawn with middleweight champ Jermain Taylor Winky was out classed in a maul. His first indisputible loss.

Being pedantic here, but didn't Wright get hammered by Argentine Julio Cesar Vazquez in his frst world title attempt, getting KD 4 times?

[brown bomber]

Being pedantic here, but didn't Wright get hammered by Argentine Julio Cesar Vazquez in his frst world title attempt, getting KD 4 times?Only just lost a very close decision which was only as a result of the points lost due to the knockdown... Watch the fight, its brilliant.

[brown bomber]

I'd put the Pavlik win in place of the boring decision against Winky. Winky was pushing his effectiveness as a MW, really being a LMW at his finest. He looked fat at 170. Pavlik was a more dangerous fighter at the weight and was widely favoured to retire Hopkins. The performance and the context make it much more impressive.Fair point, the only thing is I don't rate Pavlik at all- much like Calzaghe he was a man in the right division at the right time....:good Holmes would have beaten him i'd imagine.... fair play dan with the Echols fight, he was a good fighter Antwun but lacked that little something.

[Cobbler]

1. W Rsf 12 Felix Trinidad 40-0 (33) WBA Middleweight Champion, fresh off the back of the William Joppy destruction and the Vargas win. Amazing win against a top dangerman and All time great in their prime.

2. W Rsf 11 Glenn Johnson 32-0 , inflicts the only stoppage defeat on, and outclasses the future world light heavyweight champion and Ring Fighter of the year.

3. W KO 9 Oscar De La Hoya, weighing just over the light middleweight limit, Hopkins scores underrated win over All time great De La Hoya, the only genuine stoppage loss of the golden boys career.

4. W PTS 12 Ronald Wright, Having shut out Felix Trinidad, Ike Quartey and Shane Mosley, plus drawn with middleweight champ Jermain Taylor Winky was out classed in a maul. His first indisputible loss.

5. W PTS 12 Keith Holmes, Holmes was under-rated- a southpaw with some great wins. Hopkins dominates and outclasses the top middleweight 'contender'.

Nothing on Calzaghe's resume comes close to the top five wins on Hopkins resume, apart from the questionable Hopkins win itself.

The point being that it rather undermines your argument that Hopkins was only ever impressive at middleweight if you then include one of his fights at light heavyweight in his top five wins. Especially when he has two other wins at light heavyweight which also at least contend for inclusion in that list. Personally I'd include both Tarver and Pavlik ahead of the version of Glenn Johnson that had beaten nobody and went to lose pretty much anytime he fought someone with a winning record in his next ten fights.

[icemax]

Is Dan684 banned? Thought he would have contributed something to this by now.

He's at home at the moment for a few days, and he generally doesn't post from there

[brown bomber]

The point being that it rather undermines your argument that Hopkins was only ever impressive at middleweight if you then include one of his fights at light heavyweight in his top five wins. Especially when he has two other wins at light heavyweight which also at least contend for inclusion in that list. Personally I'd include both Tarver and Pavlik ahead of the version of Glenn Johnson that had beaten nobody and went to lose pretty much anytime he fought someone with a winning record in his next ten fights.

He operated almost his entire career at middleweight? Often weighing well inside the middleweight limit! He could probably win some fights at heavyweight too but he still primed at middle. Wright was a light middle ffs

[Cobbler]

He operated almost his entire career at middleweight? Often weighing well inside the middleweight limit! He could probably win some fights at heavyweight too but he still primed at middle. Wright was a light middle ffs

That just makes your statement completely meaningless? He has three stand out career wins at light heavyweight. Why bother trying to construct a formula for downgrading them solely for the purpose of discrediting Calzaghe's win against him? Really, what's the point?

[threethirteen]

Fair point, the only thing is I don't rate Pavlik at all- much like Calzaghe he was a man in the right division at the right time....:good Holmes would have beaten him i'd imagine.... fair play dan with the Echols fight, he was a good fighter Antwun but lacked that little something.

Now, that's interesting. He beat the man that beat Hopkins twice (debateably in the first fight, but more solidly in the second), and you don't rate him at all?

I don't rate Pavlik - think he's sloppy and was a defeat waiting to happen, just playing in a very weak division. I think only a little more of Taylor, but can rely on him coming to pieces when it matters most.

I just think the Pavlik win is better than the Winky win in context and for the guy's abilities and effectiveness at that stage and at that weight.

Not really fussed one way or the other though - they're good wins. He's an ATG at MW for sure.

[JonOli]

Was it just me or did Kessler's reach look kind of limited.

I'm starting to kid myself that long armed Froch might have a bit of joy at a distance.

[brown bomber]

Froch will beat him- might knock him out bass on that display the other night! Said from the beginning that he wasn't anything that special!

[Dan684]

:rofl

Jeff, Sorry I wasn't able to come on here and gloat with you :lol: All day on Sunday when I was at a Christening I was sending every fucker on here and my Calzaghe loving mate at home Super Joe songs :lol:

What will Joe say now if Froch stops Kessler ??? :yep

[Dan684]

Fucking hell I can't bump posts on the works comp :-(

[TheUzi]

Froch will beat him- might knock him out bass on that display the other night! Said from the beginning that he wasn't anything that special!

Totally different fights tho isn't it? Ward used intelligence and an array of defensive skills to frustrate Kessler,Froch has none of this.

Lets not write Kessler off too quick.:nono

[brown bomber]

Totally different fights tho isn't it? Ward used intelligence and an array of defensive skills to frustrate Kessler,Froch has none of this.

Lets not write Kessler off too quick.:nonoHe is an average, straight up and down boxer, with no head movement and poor lateral movement. Collins would have mauled and both Benn and Eubank would have KO'd his ass. James Toney would have retired him and Jones would have stopped him inside four rounds- whenever he wanted. :deal

[brown bomber]

:rofl

Jeff, Sorry I wasn't able to come on here and gloat with you :lol: All day on Sunday when I was at a Christening I was sending every fucker on here and my Calzaghe loving mate at home Super Joe songs :lol:

What will Joe say now if Froch stops Kessler ??? :yep Said from the beginning that he was good but nowhere near as exceptional as most made out. Now they'll say Andre Ward is the second coming. I just see another bad Chad.

[TheUzi]

He is an average, straight up and down boxer, with no head movement and poor lateral movement. Collins would have mauled and both Benn and Eubank would have KO'd his ass. James Toney would have retired him and Jones would have stopped him inside four rounds- whenever he wanted. :deal

I think thats a pretty harsh assessment. He's showed no signs of getting KO'd for a start and is far from average.
I'm going to wait until after his next couple fights and then we'll see where he stands.
There's no doubting it tho,he was completely out thought and fought the other night.

[brown bomber]

I think thats a pretty harsh assessment. He's showed no signs of getting KO'd for a start and is far from average.
I'm going to wait until after his next couple fights and then we'll see where he stands.
There's no doubting it tho,he was completely out thought and fought the other night. In world championship terms, I think he's average. What does he do exceptionally against anyone who can actually fight? He's lost nearly every round of his true world class career.

[Dan684]

I like Kessler I really do however for me his limitations were exposed a little in the second half of the Calzaghe fight.

I know people will say that it was just the fact that (like the other 44) he was just another fighter who struggled to figure JC out but for me this wasn't the case. HE HAD CALZAGHE FIGURED OUT. The fact that he couldn't put that fight to bed when he so clearly had the beating of Joe showed how ineffective he can be. Calzaghe showed a great boxing brain in that fight to overcome Kessler and totally dominate the second half of the fight however to be honest he should never have been allowed to do so and if Kessler would have had a little more about him he'd have also been able to adapt and steal a few rounds in the latter half of the fight.

The sad thing now is, if this fight took a little out of him and he gets knocked out by Froch or even beaten then its over for him in the tourny. His best hope would then be Bute (Obviously once he gets past Andrade)

[TheUzi]

In world championship terms, I think he's average. What does he do exceptionally against anyone who can actually fight? He's lost nearly every round of his true world class career.

I think his power is exceptional. His timing is 'usually' exceptional

Im not making excuses for him but i'm putting the Ward performance down to ring rust,his timing was all off and if reports are correct his sparring was a complete joke.

If in a few fights he hasn't improved and learnt lessons from what was essentially a near shut out,i'll put my hands up and admit i'm wrong.

[brown bomber]

I think his power is exceptional. His timing is 'usually' exceptional

Im not making excuses for him but i'm putting the Ward performance down to ring rust,his timing was all off and if reports are correct his sparring was a complete joke.

If in a few fights he hasn't improved and learnt lessons from what was essentially a near shut out,i'll put my hands up and admit i'm wrong. I think he's decent in world terms and will beat the tocker pudwills of this world but put him in with anyone who can fight well and he'll struggle- just my opinion obviously. In the Benn era he wouldn't have got a look in- Fredric Sellier, Frankie Liles, Tim Littles, Sugar Boy Malinga, Pazienza, Wharton, Toney, Jones, Benn, Eubank, Collins and Wharton were all better fighters.

[Diablo]

I think he's decent in world terms and will beat the tocker pudwills of this world but put him in with anyone who can fight well and he'll struggle- just my opinion obviously. In the Benn era he wouldn't have got a look in- Fredric Sellier, Frankie Liles, Tim Littles, Sugar Boy Malinga, Pazienza, Wharton, Toney, Jones, Benn, Eubank, Collins and Wharton were all better fighters.

I sense 90s nostalgia. But either way your opinion on Calzaghe is soo biased its hard to take your points seriously.