P4P: Make a list purely on ability

[Addie]

We'll keep it to a top 20.

I don't consider myself educated enough to make one of these lists as I'd have total disregard for a lot of old timers...if only because I've not seen them in action. I look forward to seeing yours lists, I'd probably expect every list to have Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Willie Pep, and Roy Jones Jr on it.

Let's see the lists.

[teeto]

I don't get it though, i rate technical ability very high, but is this just a handspeed/reflexes/power type thing? Like Hector Camacho and Ismael Laguna getting in because of speed? Because if so i'm not really in favour of it. But if i can go by my own criteria of 'ability' i'd e going for guys who can control fights and are great generals. Schooling opposition (in various forms) is the aspect of boxing that i relate most to this type of thread.

Just asking Addie,so i don't go ahead and do a list that doesn't fit.

[Addie]

I don't get it though, i rate technical ability very high, but is this just a handspeed/reflexes/power type thing? Like Hector Camacho and Ismael Laguna getting in because of speed? Because if so i'm not really in favour of it. But if i can go by my own criteria of 'ability' i'd e going for guys who can control fights and are great generals. Schooling opposition (in various forms) is the aspect of boxing that i relate most to this type of thread.

Just asking Addie,so i don't go ahead and do a list that doesn't fit.

We disregard resumes, longevity, and titles...so you rate fighters based on what they can do in the ring, that includes everything...speed, power, stamina, ring generalship, foot work, defensive ability, versatility, etc. Every single facet of the sweet science should be considered I feel. Perhaps you'll find that your list will have a lot of usual suspects because ability and success go hand in hand, but there are a few exceptions..fighters who didn't fulfill their potential.

[Tin_Ribs]

I can see where you're coming from Addie, but I don't think you can to be honest; it's a bit of an illusion. Skills and abilities should be only be held in the highest regard when they've been proven consistently against the best, so a fighter's record HAS to be taken into account.

And as for the definition of skill, it gets misinterpreted in my book. I'd say that Joe Frazier was just as 'skilled' as Leonard in his own way. He'd perfected his own style as much as Leonard had perfected his; they just had a different aesthetic. And like teeto says, ring generalship is the main thing, as is effectiveness within a certain skillset rather than speed or flashyness.

Sorry to sound nitpicky.

[Tin_Ribs]

Didn't see your next post before I posted mine.

[Addie]

I can see where you're coming from Addie, but I don't think you can to be honest; it's a bit of an illusion. Skills and abilities should be only be held in the highest regard when they've been proven consistently against the best, so a fighter's record HAS to be taken into account.

And as for the definition of skill, it gets misinterpreted in my book. I'd say that Joe Frazier was just as 'skilled' as Leonard in his own way. He'd perfected his own style as much as Leonard had perfected his; they just had a different aesthetic. And like teeto says, ring generalship is the main thing, as is effectiveness within a certain skillset rather than speed or flashyness.

Sorry to sound nitpicky.

Bump.

[teeto]

Okay, so it's basically head to head. I'll consider the best versions of what i've seen;

1. Sugar Ray Robinson (i really think that this is his spot if anybody's outright, there's debate to be had for his alltime greatness spot, but this is a list where i really like him at the top of)
2. Muhammad Ali (he's not stylistically complete, but he proved he could handle various styles from great fighters, he's not a guy you could say 'that style always beats him', about, please, no Ken Norton Devil's advocate stuff)
3. Roberto Duran (for ability he's on a level that is hard to fathom, the proof in the pudding that substance>flash, the only reason i have Ali above him is because Duran was beating convincingly in his prime)
4. Pernell Whittaker- (just so comfortable in the ring, and implied with that almost every action he took in it)
5. Jung Koo Chang (basically a nighmare to fight or box)
6. Sugar Ray Leonard (can't be denied, simply, resume doesn't play a part here but i can't hide from what he did against special fighters)
7. Carlos Ortiz- (all round technician, could do it against anyone, comparisons to a Bernard Hopkins could be made)
8. Willie Pep- (sue me for having him low)
9. Yoko Gushiken- (this is my list and is based on perception, in my perception this is a master, the epitome of the thread, i.e disregarding resume)
10. Gavin Rees

This was just off the top of my dome but i could do one again.

[teeto]

Johnny Tapia is my dark horse here.

[Addie]

Johnny Tapia is my dark horse here.

It's not really a H2H list, it's just who are the most complete and efficient fighters of all time.

[Mantequilla]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Ah, but which one...;)

[teeto]

It's not really a H2H list, it's just who are the most complete and efficient fighters of all time.
Tapia was great in his prime though, my favourite as the best 115 man i've seen. I know it's not too deep but there's been some great talents. For me to consider him possibly/likely above Watanabe in a thread of this nature is high praise.

[lefthook31]

Riddick Bowe would be my darkhorse

[teeto]

I think on a topic like this you're going to get a more generic top few than in a resume sense to be honest. It's in the resumes lists that you get forgotten greats of years gone by who beat loads of top fighters but never had much of a championship career. Like i just had to give way to the usual suspects at the top of my list.

[teeto]

Riddick Bowe would be my darkhorse
That's a great answer for the thread.

[Addie]

Tapia was great in his prime though, my favourite as the best 115 man i've seen. I know it's not too deep but there's been some great talents. For me to consider him possibly/likely above Watanabe in a thread of this nature is high praise.

Nothing wrong with picking Tapia. This is subjective, and he was amazing at 115.

[anarci]

This is an intresting thread,but i dont want to miss anyone so i will wait until later to give a better list. The obvious Robinson,Young Ali, Duran,Leonard will be on the list,but also some other guys you might not expect like a Holyfield at Cruiser,Finito Lopez,Sanchez,maybe a prime Donald Curry, Burley,Maybe Fenech at JF. Ill probably list like 30 guys since there are so many.
There seemed to be More greats based just on ability,than great fighters over the long haul. Thats why these kind of list are easy to leave somewhat out. Im not the biggest Jones fan but based on ability this guy has got to be top 5.

[Duodenum]

This may need to be hashed out further. For example, Greb, Pep, Giardello and Conn reportedly were capable of punching much harder than their knockout percentages suggest. Do we factor in things like resistance to cuts?

In Locche-Fuji, Pastrano-Downes, Conn-Pastor, and Canto-Takada, the stereotypically featherfisted winner atypically produced a stoppage of a championship caliber opponent. Against Fuji, Locche hardly resembles Maxie Rosenbloom, repeatedly whacking hooks to the body and sending the head skyward with uppercuts. Canto beat the crap out of Takada.

Do we consider Mustafa Muhammad's aggressive and highly motivated blasting of Lotte Mwale largely to the exclusion of his usually more reactive performances?

Hilmer Kenty was an aggressive stalker throughout his championship run, but that wasn't his natural style. He only reverted to type after losing his title, when he sped circles around John Montes.

Are we to consider Buster Douglas exclusively on the basis of his performance against Tyson?

[teeto]

I wouldnt go as far as to put Locche in my top ten here personally. I rate him high head to head but if you see my post on page 1 i really look into guys who can control the pace due to their technical skills and ability to school opponents. Locche could shut guys out so i might come across hypocritical, but in my perception he wasn't really one who liked to control the tempo of fights as a strategy. He'd rather let a guy attempt what he wants and frustrate them regardless. Not what i would describe as a master ring general by definition, rather a defensive wizard of the highest order, something you have to see to believe in that regard. In my opinion he is number one for defense, but it's tight at the top of that one.

[janitor]

I can think of a few names who would fare better on such a list than on most.

Packey McFarland

Jem Driscoll

Les Darcey

Dave Holly

[Tin_Ribs]

I wouldnt go as far as to put Locche in my top ten here personally. I rate him high head to head but if you see my post on page 1 i really look into guys who can control the pace due to their technical skills and ability to school opponents. Locche could shut guys out so i might come across hypocritical, but in my perception he wasn't really one who liked to control the tempo of fights as a strategy. He'd rather let a guy attempt what he wants and frustrate them regardless. Not what i would describe as a master ring general by definition, rather a defensive wizard of the highest order, something you have to see to believe in that regard. In my opinion he is number one for defense, but it's tight at the top of that one.

It's just an impression, but I've always felt that Locche could have easily controlled a fight strategically and taken the initiative if he wanted to, but simply couldn't be arsed to do it. I think he got more joy out of embarrassing opponents for the laugh of it in front of thousands of his countrymen. His footwork is the thing that usually gets criticized, but he seemed to have good footwork when he could actually be bothered to use it fully. Does the available footage even show him at his best? He looked quite mobile and less bulky against Ortiz in 66, prior to winning the title.

[Mantequilla]

Antonio Gomez woud prevail over morales/mab/marquez.Let's not even bring up Marcel.:good

[Tin_Ribs]

If I retract my original statement concerning 'ability', then Napoles fits the bill. And maybe Joey Archer.

And we might be looking at Walter McGowan a bit differently these days if he hadn't been so prone to cuts.

[PowerPuncher]

1. Jones Jr
2. Robinson
3. Whitaker
4. Duran
5. Leonard
6. Ali
7. Tyson
8. Charles
9. Mayweather
10. Holyfield

[teeto]

It's just an impression, but I've always felt that Locche could have easily controlled a fight strategically and taken the initiative if he wanted to, but simply couldn't be arsed to do it. I think he got more joy out of embarrassing opponents for the laugh of it in front of thousands of his countrymen. His footwork is the thing that usually gets criticized, but he seemed to have good footwork when he could actually be bothered to use it fully. Does the available footage even show him at his best? He looked quite mobile and less bulky against Ortiz in 66, prior to winning the title.
Yeah he was certainly a guy that liked to make the crowd laugh, you can see it in the footage. I've seen some of the Ortiz one and yeah you're right. I do think it all amounts to speculation on the evidence but good observation by you mate.

[MrMarvel]

6. Sugar Ray Leonard (can't be denied, simply, resume doesn't play a part here but i can't hide from what he did against special fighters)

I am curious about this one. I guess it depends on how you define ability. But however you define it, I would think that a welterweight of high ability would be able to handle a lightweight of high ability. Judging from the ass whipping Leonard got from Duran, it doesn't seem Leonard qualifies. You did put Duran over Leonard. That is as it should be (he's way above Leonard). But Leonard was a welterweight. A great bigger man should beat a great smaller man. Also, Hearns had Leonard very puzzled over 12 rounds of their first fight and outboxed Leonard in their rematch. Hearns proved he had more ability, didn't he? I think so. He was the better boxer in both fights. So why isn't Hearns on the list? Leonard didn't look very good against Norris, either. I believe that a fighter of ability worthy of being ranked so high should consistently display great ability especially in the weight classes in which he won championships. Leonard didn't. Leonard was a excellent boxer in terms of ability. No question about it. Very technically proficient. But I don't think he was any more so than, say, Camacho. Leonard didn't have the ability of Pep (who should be higher), Jones, or Whitaker (I am glad to see you rank Whitaker so highly).

[Duodenum]

I wouldnt go as far as to put Locche in my top ten here personally. I rate him high head to head but if you see my post on page 1 i really look into guys who can control the pace due to their technical skills and ability to school opponents. Locche could shut guys out so i might come across hypocritical, but in my perception he wasn't really one who liked to control the tempo of fights as a strategy. He'd rather let a guy attempt what he wants and frustrate them regardless. Not what i would describe as a master ring general by definition, rather a defensive wizard of the highest order, something you have to see to believe in that regard. In my opinion he is number one for defense, but it's tight at the top of that one.I only mention Locche as an example of somebody whose abilities may have surpassed what he typically displayed. Is usual strategy to be considered within the context of this thread, or are we only dealing with utmost potential?

All of the names in my previous post were intended as examples of potential, not necessarily as candidates for the proposed list. Having mentioned that, I find it really interesting that Locche was singled out for further discussion. (Among the names I happened to introduce, I thought Conn's might be the one to be highlighted first. Louis famously said, "Billy Conn had it all.")

[GPater11093]

It's just an impression, but I've always felt that Locche could have easily controlled a fight strategically and taken the initiative if he wanted to, but simply couldn't be arsed to do it. I think he got more joy out of embarrassing opponents for the laugh of it in front of thousands of his countrymen. His footwork is the thing that usually gets criticized, but he seemed to have good footwork when he could actually be bothered to use it fully. Does the available footage even show him at his best? He looked quite mobile and less bulky against Ortiz in 66, prior to winning the title.

I think we have seen the best of Locche defensivly on film in the Fuki and 2nd Cervantez figth. But with the Highligthsand i have a fiar few highligths he looks alot mobiler(if thats a word) and more springy. I uploaded th Ortiz fight to Youtube and added some comments about it

[Tin_Ribs]

Yeah he was certainly a guy that liked to make the crowd laugh, you can see it in the footage. I've seen some of the Ortiz one and yeah you're right. I do think it all amounts to speculation on the evidence but good observation by you mate.

I'm speculating, like you say, but I'm unashamedly biased as anything towards Locche :D.

I liked your call on Gushiken aswell. I've been watching him lately and he was a wonderful ring general, sort of what Mijares should have been like if things didn't go arsehole upwards for him.

[ripcity]

Off the top of my head
1. Benny Leonard
2. Roy Jones Jr
3. Ray Robinson
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Ray Leonard
6. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
7. Henery Armstrong
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Joe Louis
10. Willie Pep

[teeto]

I am curious about this one. I guess it depends on how you define ability. But however you define it, I would think that a welterweight of high ability would be able to handle a lightweight of high ability. Judging from the ass whipping Leonard got from Duran, it doesn't seem Leonard qualifies. You did put Duran over Leonard. That is as it should be (he's way above Leonard). But Leonard was a welterweight. A great bigger man should beat a great smaller man. Also, Hearns had Leonard very puzzled over 12 rounds of their first fight and outboxed Leonard in their rematch. Hearns proved he had more ability, didn't he? I think so. He was the better boxer in both fights. So why isn't Hearns on the list? Leonard didn't look very good against Norris, either. I believe that a fighter of ability worthy of being ranked so high should consistently display great ability especially in the weight classes in which he won championships. Leonard didn't. Leonard was a excellent boxer in terms of ability. No question about it. Very technically proficient. But I don't think he was any more so than, say, Camacho. Leonard didn't have the ability of Pep (who should be higher), Jones, or Whitaker (I am glad to see you rank Whitaker so highly).
Well i regard him as a much better fighter than Camacho to be honest. Camach is one who some might label more flash than substance and i wouldn't argue too much. To be honest i can't really take the bringing up of the Norris fight too seriously. And he flat out won the fight against Hearns the first time, ability was shown on his behalf at the highest level in my book. People talk like Hearns was showing some display of wizardry till he got caught that night. It's madness, he was boxing in an offensive manner, and using his jab very well. Leonard hurt him and then applied pressure consistently and showed great finsishing skills, not neglecting the body either. In their rematch, i had that a draw, and Leonard was much sharper with the hooks etc he threw than was Hearns with his shots, that much is clear in my memory bank. Hearns got two knockdowns and i still had it even personally. Roberto Duran was maybe the bestlightweight ever, but this seems to lead people to believe he had no right to do well at 147. Look at the man's record in hindsight at 147. He was more than proven there, a win over him (and only one occurred) at that weight is a great one in terms of ability. I'm clearly a Duran fan and i hardly like Ray Leonard, but i rate both men's wins over each other there.

[Tin_Ribs]

I think we have seen the best of Locche defensivly on film in the Fuki and 2nd Cervantez figth. But with the Highligthsand i have a fiar few highligths he looks alot mobiler(if thats a word) and more springy. I uploaded th Ortiz fight to Youtube and added some comments about it

I'm thinking he might have been slightly past his physical prime by the time of the Fuji and Cervantes fights, looking at his body shape and reduced movement in comparison to the Ortiz fight and before when he was a lightweight. His skills were at their peak though.

[sugarsean]

1. Sugar Ray Leonard
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Marvin Hagler
6. Roberto Duran
7. Wilfred Benitez
8. Roy Jones Jr
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Mike Tyson

[teeto]

I only mention Locche as an example of somebody whose abilities may have surpassed what he typically displayed. Is usual strategy to be considered within the context of this thread, or are we only dealing with utmost potential?

All of the names in my previous post were intended as examples of potential, not necessarily as candidates for the proposed list. Having mentioned that, I find it really interesting that Locche was singled out for further discussion. (Among the names I happened to introduce, I thought Conn's might be the one to be highlighted first. Louis famously said, "Billy Conn had it all.")
I wasn't singling him out, i was just expressing an opinion on something i have one on. It wasn't a shot at you or anything. I didn't comment on Conn because i believe he fits in here, absolute heaps of ability.

[teeto]

I'm speculating, like you say, but I'm unashamedly biased as anything towards Locche :D.

I liked your call on Gushiken aswell. I've been watching him lately and he was a wonderful ring general, sort of what Mijares should have been like if things didn't go arsehole upwards for him.
Haha, didn't know of your liking of Locche, me too though. Great to watch. Yeah Gushiken is a good example of a guy without the resume but looks (to me) sort of heaven to watch.

[Tin_Ribs]

Conn is the one of the obvious ones that would have never crossed my mind due to being obvious. Genius he was, other not having a killer punch, though a respectable one. Good enough to beat any light heavy in history IMO and a good few heavys to boot. Think of how high he'd be rated if he'd pipped Louis having already beaten Yarosz, Risko, Apostoli, Dundee, Bettina, Lesnevich, Young Corbett III and all the others.

[teeto]

Conn is the one of the obvious ones that would have never crossed my mind due to being obvious. Genius he was, other not having a killer punch, though a respectable one. Good enough to beat any light heavy in history IMO and a good few heavys to boot. Think of how high he'd be rated if he'd pipped Louis having already beaten Yarosz, Risko, Apostoli, Dundee, Bettina, Lesnevich, Young Corbett III and all the others.
It's a great shout.

[Body Head]

1. Nikolai Valuev
2. Ricky Hatton
3. Enzo Maccarinelli
4. Rick Thornberry
5. Branko Sobot
6. Kabary Salem
7. Mger Mkrtchyan
8. Tocker Pudwill
9. David Starie
10. Mario Veit

[Addie]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[teeto]

1. Nikolai Valuev
2. Ricky Hatton
3. Enzo Maccarinelli
4. Rick Thornberry
5. Branko Sobot
6. Kabary Salem
7. Mger Mkrtchyan
8. Tocker Pudwill
9. David Starie
10. Mario Veit
Calzaghe must be the most proven fighter ever if they're the best guys for ability! That's his list of victims isn't it?!

[Addie]

Calzaghe must be the most proven fighter ever if they're the best guys for ability! That's his list of victims isn't it?!

Teeto watch the video I just posted. Wow...just wow, Canizales is def getting a mention here.

[Body Head]

Calzaghe must be the most proven fighter ever if they're the best guys for ability! That's his list of victims isn't it?!

Yes!!!! Calzaghe is Number 1 ATG!!!! :deal

[teeto]

Teeto watch the video I just posted. Wow...just wow, Canizales is def getting a mention here.
It's amazing, because he doesn't let the shots go till he sees the opening, he can switch his tempo from low to high in a split second. He was quite complete.

Surprised nobody mentioned my number 10 spot.

[Tin_Ribs]

It's amazing, because he doesn't let the shots go till he sees the opening, he can switch his tempo from low to high in a split second. He was quite complete.

Surprised nobody mentioned my number 10 spot.

Just seen it :lol:

I actually had a bit of a soft spot for the little fella after he upset M'Baye.

[teeto]

Just seen it :lol:

I actually had a bit of a soft spot for the little fella after he upset M'Baye.
What a display of bringing tactical nouse to fruition. It was a serious pick.

[Popkins]

We'll keep it to a top 20.

I don't consider myself educated enough to make one of these lists as I'd have total disregard for a lot of old timers...if only because I've not seen them in action. I look forward to seeing yours lists, I'd probably expect every list to have Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Willie Pep, and Roy Jones Jr on it.

Let's see the lists.

Top 5 on ability (including only fighters I have seen fight):

1.Roberto Duran
(beat Leonard at his weight when they both in top shape)
2.Ray Leonard
(more adaptable than Duran, but a whisker behind him in terms of all-round effectiveness in his prime)
3.Ray Robinson
(I haven't seen him fight at 147, only 160)
4.Pernell Whitaker
(if he had better power, he'd be number 1)
5.Willie Pep
(a genius)

I know most people will have Tommy Hearns in there, but I just can't do it. I'm sorry Hitman fans, but the chin issue is always at the back of my mind, especially when considering 15 rounders. I know that is blasphemy to some, but he had a weakness no-one else in my top 5 had. JMHO.

[Popkins]

Top 5 on ability (including only fighters I have seen fight):

1.Roberto Duran
(beat Leonard at his weight when they both in top shape)
2.Ray Leonard
(more adaptable than Duran, but a whisker behind him in terms of all-round effectiveness in his prime)
3.Ray Robinson
(I haven't seen him fight at 147, only 160)
4.Pernell Whitaker
(if he had better power, he'd be number 1)
5.Willie Pep
(a genius)

I know most people will have Tommy Hearns in there, but I just can't do it. I'm sorry Hitman fans, but the chin issue is always at the back of my mind, especially when considering 15 rounders. I know that is blasphemy to some, but he had a weakness no-one else in my top 5 had. JMHO.

I have ordered a steaming hot batch of Henry Armstrong footage, once I have those little beauties in my grasp I fully anticipate the great man making inroads into that top bracket. I have seen clips and he was just my type of fighter - a machine.

[Addie]

Top 5 on ability (including only fighters I have seen fight):

1.Roberto Duran
(beat Leonard at his weight when they both in top shape)
2.Ray Leonard
(more adaptable than Duran, but a whisker behind him in terms of all-round effectiveness in his prime)
3.Ray Robinson
(I haven't seen him fight at 147, only 160)
4.Pernell Whitaker
(if he had better power, he'd be number 1)
5.Willie Pep
(a genius)

I know most people will have Tommy Hearns in there, but I just can't do it. I'm sorry Hitman fans, but the chin issue is always at the back of my mind, especially when considering 15 rounders. I know that is blasphemy to some, but he had a weakness no-one else in my top 5 had. JMHO.

Good list, and I agree with the Hearns call too. :good

[Sweet Pea]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Ah, but which one...;)If only he had a bit more dedication...

[Flea Man]

If only he had a bit more dedication...

AM I AN ABSOLUTE RETARD???? (okay, don't answer:lol:) but who's that standing with Louis?

Looks like Julian Jackson :lol:

[Sweet Pea]

AM I AN ABSOLUTE RETARD???? (okay, don't answer:lol:) but who's that standing with Louis?

Looks like Julian Jackson :lol:My Dinner with Conteh's favorite fighter.

[Flea Man]

My Dinner with Conteh's favorite fighter.

That's NEVER John COnteh:shock:

[johnmaff36]

Would have to give this a bit of thought. A few guys spring to mind that aint been mentioned yet,
Wilfredo Benitez
Eusebio Pedroza
Azumah Nelson
Julio Caesar Chavez- his fight with greg haugen was a great example of controlled aggression and ring generalship

[anarci]

Would have to give this a bit of thought. A few guys spring to mind that aint been mentioned yet,
Wilfredo Benitez
Eusebio Pedroza
Azumah Nelson
Julio Caesar Chavez- his fight with greg haugen was a great example of controlled aggression and ring generalship
I mentioned JC and i mentioned Nelson on another thread on esb.
Check this out! Im pretty new on ESB but I you will get some good knowledge from :bart me just as much as anyone else here.

[anarci]

It really sucks that my availale times on ESB CLASSIC,is when everyone is asleep. I got to go to my Job half buzzed. thats ok! I go to the General forum and these guys are FUcking clueless.. then i come to The classic forum and we just dont have a big Crowd following here. This is by far the best forum on ESB and, i guess that there is just not that many knowledegable fans outside or the classic forum

[teeto]

I'm a bit shocked you didn't recognise Conteh there Fleaman.

[Addie]

That's NEVER John COnteh:shock:

Almost as bad as Teeto not knowing who it is in my avatar...I knew it was Conteh from a mile off. :lol:

[Addie]

It really sucks that my availale times on ESB CLASSIC,is when everyone is asleep. I got to go to my Job half buzzed. thats ok! I go to the General forum and these guys are FUcking clueless.. then i come to The classic forum and we just dont have a big Crowd following here. This is by far the best forum on ESB and, i guess that there is just not that many knowledegable fans outside or the classic forum

:lol::lol::lol: ...So true.

[GPater11093]

I'm thinking he might have been slightly past his physical prime by the time of the Fuji and Cervantes fights, looking at his body shape and reduced movement in comparison to the Ortiz fight and before when he was a lightweight. His skills were at their peak though.

defensivly his skills was amazing but with his fight with Ortiz we see clips of him actually leading with jabs and moving after it and looking more ocmplete. But since its only 3-4 mins we cant really tell if it was just spurts or no.

I'm a bit shocked you didn't recognise Conteh there Fleaman.

i didnt recognise him either looks very young in that photo

[McGrain]

01 - Sugar Ray Robinson
02 - Henry Armstrong
03 - Muhammad Ali
04 - Roberto Duran
05 - Willie Pep
06 - Joe Louis
07 - Sugar Ray Leonard
08 - Archie Moore
09 - Pernell Whitaker
10 - Billy Conn


That's my ten names on who I think did boxing best based upon film i've seen. Today.

Names that were nagging me that I didn't expect: Jack Johnson(!), Ruben Olivares, Rocky Marciano & Joe Frazier. I think Olivares would make my 20.

[Tin_Ribs]

:patsch How the fucking hell could I forget about Conteh? If the man had had more dedication, less of a predisposition towards inebriation and an uninjured right hand, we might be talking about him much differently concerning his overall legacy. Even in such a brief career, he still managed to fit in top wins over Ahumada, Rondon, Bennett, Finnegan x2, Lopez, Hutchins and Bogs, not to mention the his last hurrah against Saad when he was only a shadow of his old self.

Master boxer-puncher, one the best ever in this regard at light heavy I've ever seen.

[Addie]

:patsch How the fucking hell could I forget about Conteh? If the man had had more dedication, less of a predisposition towards inebriation and an uninjured right hand, we might be talking about him much differently concerning his overall legacy. Even in such a brief career, he still managed to fit in top wins over Ahumada, Rondon, Bennett, Finnegan x2, Lopez, Hutchins and Bogs, not to mention the his last hurrah against Saad when he was only a shadow of his old self.

Master boxer-puncher, one the best ever in this regard at light heavy I've ever seen.

I have to see more of Conteh. What fight do you recommend? It'll probably be on youtube.

[GPater11093]

There is 5 fighters i have seen that i really think are some of th best boxers i have ever seen. I just cant see past them. I mean it these guys took my breath away the first time i seen them and they still do.

the names are (in alphabetical order as i cant pick a best)

Henry Armstrong
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep
Ray Robinson
Pernell Whittaker

5 other names i would mention but there could be another 10 that i could mention

Jung Koo-Chang
Muhammed Ali
Ruben Olivares
Ezzard Charles
Carlos Monzon

[Blood Green]

Terry Norris and Michael Spinks might deserve mention here.

[Tin_Ribs]

I have to see more of Conteh. What fight do you recommend? It'll probably be on youtube.

For a sheer display of ability, I'd say the Bogs fight, but Bogs wasn't his best opponent by a long way. The Finnegan fights, when Conteh was on the way up, are quality but I'm not sure if they're on youtube. The Lopez fight is one of my favourites - Conteh hurt his right hand but still managed to keep a fighter like Lopez at the end of his jab for the entire fight. The Hutchins KO is top notch as well.

He was finished by the time of the rematch with Saad, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to that unless you want to watch Saad dish out a one-sided pasting to a shot fighter.

[Addie]

These are the best fighters I have seen on film

Julio Cesar Chavez - He puts his punches together as well as anyone I've seen. His accuracy is amazing, very rarely misses, and he switches to body and head as seamlessly as anyone I've seen too. Underrated defense, he takes a lot of shots on his arms, and he limits the impact of punches by rolling with them at times, and tucking his chin in as he unloads. Great in-fighter, cuts the ring off effortlessly.

Orlando Canizales - Perhaps some will feel I'm a bit of a fanboy but I'm really impressed with his footage. I love his variety of his punches, the way he'll turn his jab into an uppercut, and create angles for himself by stepping to the left and right. One of the most supreme counter punches I've seen, his power at Bantamweight was devastating, one of the most underrated fighters on ESB. Some haven't even heard of the guy.

Sugar Ray Leonard - One of the most complete. Had power in both hands, his speed was unbelievable, and he could take a really good shot. I wouldn't favor anyone over him at Welterweight other than perhaps Sugar Ray Robinson, and even then I feel the result would very much be in doubt. He proved his skills against some of the best fighters of all time.

Muhammad Ali - Before his exile, he was dismantling champions and decent contenders like they were junior sparring partners. His speed was just to much for the Heavyweights, he'd avoid punches simply by moving his head. A little unortodox, but when he did get hit, he showed that he could withstand heavy artillery from even the most lauded of punchers. Shavers, Liston, Foreman, Frazier, and the list goes on. All the hype is justified in my judgment.

Alexis Arguello - Nobody threw shots with better technique than Alexis Arguello. He could be outboxed, and his speed was nothing spectacular, but he waited for openings and then he'd throw the most beautiful looking punches you'll ever seen. The straight right hand down the pipe damn near killed Kevin Rooney, and his left hook devastated Ray Mancini. Kobayashi will never forget the body shot that almost doubled him over either. He had every shot, and he threw it with perfect accuracy and technique. A great 15 round fighter.

[Manassa]

1. 1937 Henry Armstrong

Alright, we didn't see him there. But we have impressive later footage and knowledge that he used to be even better. A bit like when none of us had seen the '40s Robinson footage (and even the quality of that leaves a desire for better).

[McGrain]

Canizales and Arguello above Louis based upon superior punching is an enormous shout.

[McGrain]

1. 1937 Henry Armstrong

Alright, we didn't see him there. But we have impressive later footage and knowledge that he used to be even better. A bit like when none of us had seen the '40s Robinson footage (and even the quality of that leaves a desire for better).


Why do you need to bring up 37? Why not just the dazzling array of footage that exists? I have him at #2 based upon that and it's entirely justified. Guy was awesome.

[McGrain]

Addie...you have Chavez above Armstrong.

[Addie]

Canizales and Arguello above Louis based upon superior punching is an enormous shout.

I haven't seen as much of Louis as perhaps I should have McGrain. I wasn't saying they were better than Louis, the just impress me every time I watch them work.

I'll be frank. I know fuck all about the sport in comparison to some of you. There's a 100 fighters that I've still yet to really see and appreciate, Armstrong and Louis included.

[McGrain]

I haven't seen as much of Louis as perhaps I should have McGrain. I wasn't saying they were better than Louis, the just impress me every time I watch them work.

I'll be frank. I know fuck all about the sport in comparison to some of you. There's a 100 fighters that I've still yet to really see and appreciate, Armstrong and Louis included.


Well hunt down some Olivares/Zarate first, because you're going to want to rank them above Canizales in this regard too. I love Canizales too, but come on. You've kind off started backwards in a way though! Refreshing at least.

[Manassa]

Why do you need to bring up 37? Why not just the dazzling array of footage that exists? I have him at #2 based upon that and it's entirely justified. Guy was awesome.

Well exactly. Now if he was better in '37, he's #1.

[Addie]

Well hunt down some Olivares/Zarate first, because you're going to want to rank them above Canizales in this regard too. I love Canizales too, but come on. You've kind off started backwards in a way though! Refreshing at least.

I've seen a bit of Zarate, and I don't think it's out of the question to consider Canizales a superior offensive fighter. He's just more explosive, has faster hands, and a better more fluid combination puncher in my judgment.

[McGrain]

Well exactly. Now if he was better in '37, he's #1.

Carbon copy argument using Robinson in '49. I think i'm more comfortable just having Robinson above Armstrong based upon what i've seen...no doubt, though, Armstrong is in his stratosphere (along with how many others...even 15?). Would you rank Louis up there?

[Seamus]

Benitez, Napoles and Casamayor are names I would add for consideration.

[McGrain]

Ezzard Charles
Carlos Monzon

Monzon is a good one...Charles, I think Moore looks better on film to me...of course, we don't have very much Charles at LHW, maybe you've seen some of him there? What do you think?

[Manassa]

Carbon copy argument using Robinson in '49. I think i'm more comfortable just having Robinson above Armstrong based upon what i've seen...no doubt, though, Armstrong is in his stratosphere (along with how many others...even 15?). Would you rank Louis up there?

A bit below.

I've never seen Robinson as the nearest thing to invincible.

[McGrain]

A bit below.

I've never seen Robinson as the nearest thing to invincible.

I would have Louis at the very top of a second tier.

Robinson wouldn't be your #1/#2?

[GPater11093]

Monzon is a good one...Charles, I think Moore looks better on film to me...of course, we don't have very much Charles at LHW, maybe you've seen some of him there? What do you think?

Just thought harles deserved a mention as theres about 20 guys i could have on that level Moore included.

I do think he is good on film personally but i havent saw enough of him just some of his Heavyweight fights which impressed me. Also some reports i have read on him make it clear to me how good he was. Shame we dont have more on him.

Monzon isnt talented in the traditional sense he dosent fight in a way that makes him look great does he? but can you name any Middleweight that you definitly think beats him?

[McGrain]

Just thought harles deserved a mention as theres about 20 guys i could have on that level Moore included.

I do think he is good on film personally but i havent saw enough of him just some of his Heavyweight fights which impressed me. Also some reports i have read on him make it clear to me how good he was. Shame we dont have more on him.

Monzon isnt talented in the traditional sense he dosent fight in a way that makes him look great does he? but can you name any Middleweight that you definitly think beats him?

I agree that Charles looks excellent on film; I just feel like Charles's best stuff isn't on film. Arguably Moore's best stuff isn't on film either, but if I was forced to make a judgement on who was better purely based upon what i'd seen i'd go for Moore.

Monzon belongs in that company, don't doubt it. I'd tend to pick Greb and Robinson over hm but definitetly? I wouldn't even bet your cash against Monzon at MW.

How do you think he gets along with Dick Tiger?

[GPater11093]

I agree that Charles looks excellent on film; I just feel like Charles's best stuff isn't on film. Arguably Moore's best stuff isn't on film either, but if I was forced to make a judgement on who was better purely based upon what i'd seen i'd go for Moore.

Monzon belongs in that company, don't doubt it. I'd tend to pick Greb and Robinson over hm but definitetly? I wouldn't even bet your cash against Monzon at MW.

How do you think he gets along with Dick Tiger?

Fair enough like i was saying i dont necessary rate Charles higher just there on the same level and i mentioned Charles as i felt he deserved it rather than say someone who had already been mentioned. In fact one of the most impressive performances i have seen is Archie Moore vs Joey Maxim (is it 1 or 2 where Moore wins the title) never seen such a great display of defence while coming forward in taht bobbing weaviing countering style. very impressive.

You can just maybe favour a fighter over Monzon but you cant be 100% or even 80% sure. I think he beats Tiger. He can keep it at long range and keep Tiger at range who wasnt the quickest on his feet. Tiger is kinda a cross between Valdez and Briscoe (loosely) gives Monzon some trouble but ultimatly Monzon can keep him at range with the 1-2

[Manassa]

I would have Louis at the very top of a second tier.

Robinson wouldn't be your #1/#2?

Goes in tiers. And there's not really much separating them:

Tier 1: Armstrong, Duran, Robinson, Pep, Charles, Whitaker

Tier 2: Hagler, Monzon, Jones, Louis, Napoles, R. Leonard

Tier 2.1: Williams, Rodriguez, Moore, Saddler, C. Ortiz

Tier 3: H. Johnson, Tiger, Gavilan, Buchanan, Chocolate, Qawi

Tier 4: Basilio, Fullmer, Ambers, Carter, Arizmendi, Bivins

Tier 5: Wright, Ramirez, Maxim, Joyce, Sharkey...

... And so on. Anything up to Tier 3 could be in with a very good chance of beating a Tier 1. Tiers 4-5 would be considered upsets.

[McGrain]

In fact one of the most impressive performances i have seen is Archie Moore vs Joey Maxim (is it 1 or 2 where Moore wins the title) never seen such a great display of defence while coming forward in taht bobbing weaviing countering style. very impressive.

:good

You can just maybe favour a fighter over Monzon but you cant be 100% or even 80% sure. I think he beats Tiger. He can keep it at long range and keep Tiger at range who wasnt the quickest on his feet. Tiger is kinda a cross between Valdez and Briscoe (loosely) gives Monzon some trouble but ultimatly Monzon can keep him at range with the 1-2


The thing that strikes me about Monzon is he almost always "breaks" his men on one level or another - see where i'm at with this? I say nearly...anyway, as well as being a hugely aggressive pressure counter-puncher, Tiger is also unbreakable. Wouldn't you agree? You can't take it away from a prime Tiger by beating him up...he would just take it and keep coming. Discipline. Heart. Courage. Durability. Stamina. All 10/10 for Dick. I wonder...be a very, very hard fight for Carlos I think.

[McGrain]

Goes in tiers. And there's not really much separating them:

Tier 1: Armstrong, Duran, Robinson, Pep, Charles, Whitaker

Tier 2: Hagler, Monzon, Jones, Louis, Napoles, R. Leonard

Tier 2.1: Williams, Rodriguez, Moore, Saddler, C. Ortiz

Tier 3: H. Johnson, Tiger, Gavilan, Buchanan, Chocolate, Qawi

Tier 4: Basilio, Fullmer, Ambers, Carter, Arizmendi, Bivins

Tier 5: Wright, Ramirez, Maxim, Joyce, Sharkey...

... And so on. Anything up to Tier 3 could be in with a very good chance of beating a Tier 1. Tiers 4-5 would be considered upsets.

IMO, based upon what's on film rather than what makes up a fighter's legacy you're low-balling Moore here. But I can see you are off on a slightly different tangent.

Olivares? Which tier?

[Manassa]

IMO, based upon what's on film rather than what makes up a fighter's legacy you're low-balling Moore here. But I can see you are off on a slightly different tangent.

Olivares? Which tier?

So you think Moore was better than Ike Williams? Carlos Ortiz?

All were great and more than capable of taking out specific Tier 1s. They were also beatable.

Olivares, 2.1.

[McGrain]

So you think Moore was better than Ike Williams? Carlos Ortiz?

Aye.

Olivares, 2.1.

Aye.

[Unforgiven]

I'll throw in Dempsey.

And Larry Holmes. And Kid Chocolate.

[Manassa]

Aye.

Bollocks. Greater, yes, due to his astounding resilience.

[McGrain]

Bollocks. Greater, yes, due to his astounding resilience.


Well it's certainly not "bollocks". At the very worst it's slightly wrong with, as your contesting, the sliver in quality i have between them non-existant.

Moore v Foster, who you got?

[wellsini]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson - who's gonna argue with this one?

2. Pernell Whittaker - for the same reasons as teeto he was fucking beautiful to watch!

3. Roy Jones Jr - If only he had an iron clad chin!

4. Lennox lewis - Box could lennox box! Lazy bastard though!

5. Roberto Duran - 60 KO's rediculous armoury

6. Sugar Ray Leonard - the guy took legends to school

7. Floyd Mayweather - Sorry everyone

8. Oscar De La Hoya - Please?? No but really!

9. Evander Holyfield - Purely because his boxing ability and heart saw him become undisputed cruiserweight AND heavyweight champ

10. Montell Griffin - Just ask James Toney!

[wellsini]

I could have made a top 20 on this one no probs tough call nice thread!

[GPater11093]

Goes in tiers. And there's not really much separating them:

Tier 1: Armstrong, Duran, Robinson, Pep, Charles, Whitaker

Tier 2: Hagler, Monzon, Jones, Louis, Napoles, R. Leonard

Tier 2.1: Williams, Rodriguez, Moore, Saddler, C. Ortiz

Tier 3: H. Johnson, Tiger, Gavilan, Buchanan, Chocolate, Qawi

Tier 4: Basilio, Fullmer, Ambers, Carter, Arizmendi, Bivins

Tier 5: Wright, Ramirez, Maxim, Joyce, Sharkey...

... And so on. Anything up to Tier 3 could be in with a very good chance of beating a Tier 1. Tiers 4-5 would be considered upsets.

some nice picks in there, interesting aswell

especially Buchanan at 3 and LMR at 2

also is that Winky Wright at tier 5


The thing that strikes me about Monzon is he almost always "breaks" his men on one level or another - see where i'm at with this? I say nearly...anyway, as well as being a hugely aggressive pressure counter-puncher, Tiger is also unbreakable. Wouldn't you agree? You can't take it away from a prime Tiger by beating him up...he would just take it and keep coming. Discipline. Heart. Courage. Durability. Stamina. All 10/10 for Dick. I wonder...be a very, very hard fight for Carlos I think.

He does seem to break them and yes Tiger was unbreakable. But Carlos was tough aswell, i dont think Monzon broke Briscoe in the rematch he seemed to be punching non stop to keep Briscoe off of him and he did manage. Tiger would keep coming but Monzon has the power to atleast hold him up coming in and giving Monzon some time and Monzon has the movement to offset presure as he would step off while punching.

So you think Moore was better than Ike Williams? Carlos Ortiz?

All were great and more than capable of taking out specific Tier 1s. They were also beatable.

Olivares, 2.1.

Mannassa where do you rate Moores win over Maxim where he completly dominated him? one ATG Light Heavy shutting out another

[McGrain]

He does seem to break them and yes Tiger was unbreakable. But Carlos was tough aswell, i dont think Monzon broke Briscoe in the rematch he seemed to be punching non stop to keep Briscoe off of him and he did manage. Tiger would keep coming but Monzon has the power to atleast hold him up coming in and giving Monzon some time and Monzon has the movement to offset presure as he would step off while punching.



I think that's reasonable. Getting out-boxed isn't a new experience for Tiger, but what's interesting is being in with someone that LITERALLY won't go away, and is of Tiger's quality is a new experience for Monzon...Tiger is this type of fighter that could get beaten by some odd guys, guys that aren't in his class perhaps, but could also beat guys who are a clear class above...I think Tiger might beat Monzon.

[GPater11093]

I think that's reasonable. Getting out-boxed isn't a new experience for Tiger, but what's interesting is being in with someone that LITERALLY won't go away, and is of Tiger's quality is a new experience for Monzon...Tiger is this type of fighter that could get beaten by some odd guys, guys that aren't in his class perhaps, but could also beat guys who are a clear class above...I think Tiger might beat Monzon.

Tiger wont be stopping against Monzon but was Monzon every flapped in the ring he always seemed to take things into his stride. Theres a good chance he could realise he cant break Tiger and will adjust to a more tactical approach. I honestly dontt hink he broke Briscoe but adjusted.

Interesting that point that Tiger could lose to a guy lesser than him but then he could beat one of the best at the weight and i agree.

[stevebhoy87]

Monzon is a good one...Charles, I think Moore looks better on film to me...of course, we don't have very much Charles at LHW, maybe you've seen some of him there? What do you think?

Intresting, i think charles v marshall is the most impressive i've seen of either on film, must admit i haven't seen everything of moore avaliable though, any particular fights you'd recommend?

[McGrain]

I honestly dontt hink he broke Briscoe but adjusted.

I think you're probably right, although Tiger brings that extra class...be interesting at the very least. Actually, hard to think of many better fights at the weight for an all in type of affair, tactical, thrilling, technical, style-clash, battle of wills.

[McGrain]

Intresting, i think charles v marshall is the most impressive i've seen of either on film, must admit i haven't seen everything of moore avaliable though, any particular fights you'd recommend?


Charles v Marshall may very well be the tie-breaker, but then again it's ONE performance...Moore looks consistantly better on film, I should say.

Moore v Maxim for the title is probably the one, the last round is on YouTube on account of GreatA

[McGrain]

Here you go. Moore looks basically impossible to box in this round, the last round of a tough title fight against a very, very good fighter. He's in absolute control at every distance and exhibits every single trick that is in the book that is relevant. Awful, awful fighter to be faced with at that point in a fight.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[stevebhoy87]

Charles v Marshall may very well be the tie-breaker, but then again it's ONE performance...Moore looks consistantly better on film, I should say.

Moore v Maxim for the title is probably the one, the last round is on YouTube on account of GreatA

Yeah that probably reasonable, every other fight i have seen of charles he didn't look as good as his performance against marshall. Of course most of that is past prime but so is most of the moore stuff avaliable.

[McGrain]

Of course most of that is past prime but so is most of the moore stuff avaliable.

Yeah. I unhesitatingly rank Charles above Moore on all lists, but for this one - based purely upon film, I like Moore.

[GPater11093]

Intresting, i think charles v marshall is the most impressive i've seen of either on film, must admit i haven't seen everything of moore avaliable though, any particular fights you'd recommend?

what McGrain said, the Maxim fight for the title seriously impressive

I think you're probably right, although Tiger brings that extra class...be interesting at the very least. Actually, hard to think of many better fights at the weight for an all in type of affair, tactical, thrilling, technical, style-clash, battle of wills.

yeh very interesting. How do you see Hgaler doing vs Tiger?

[McGrain]

yeh very interesting. How do you see Hgaler doing vs Tiger?

Marvin wins with the right plan but possibly gets edged out with the wrong plan.

[Seamus]

Sam Langford, anyone?

[McGrain]

Sam Langford, anyone?

Not enough quality film to make it viable, I fear, although I do find Sam impressive on what little film i've seen.

[GPater11093]

Marvin wins with the right plan but possibly gets edged out with the wrong plan.

sitting on the fence aint ya?

it will be a good fight just think Hagler has the skill to 'outbox' Tiger and he has the grittiness, chin, stamina and deterination to hang it out when it gets tough. But like you say if Hagler dosent box it will be an amazing fight but he might lose it

[TheGreatA]

I like this performance by Archie Moore:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Keep in mind he was in his mid 40's for this one. Really turned the tables on a fighter who had given him hell in their first fight.

[McGrain]

sitting on the fence aint ya?

it will be a good fight just think Hagler has the skill to 'outbox' Tiger and he has the grittiness, chin, stamina and deterination to hang it out when it gets tough. But like you say if Hagler dosent box it will be an amazing fight but he might lose it

I pick Hagler, but if he got it wrong he could lose.

[GPater11093]

I pick Hagler, but if he got it wrong he could lose.

and whats getting it wrong?

trading with Tiger and trying to shoot it out with him

[McGrain]

Yes, at close range. I think Tiger's strength might play against him though. Nothing could compel Hagler to stay in there after he's been manhandles (or something like it) by Tiger.

[Manassa]

Well it's certainly not "bollocks". At the very worst it's slightly wrong with, as your contesting, the sliver in quality i have between them non-existant.

Moore v Foster, who you got?

Didn't know you were that sensitive.

Moore KO14.

[McGrain]

Didn't know you were that sensitive.

Moore KO14.


I'm not being sensitive at all.

I agree with the KO pick but I thin it might happen a little earlier, in fact.

[Manassa]

some nice picks in there, interesting aswell

especially Buchanan at 3 and LMR at 2

also is that Winky Wright at tier 5


--


Mannassa where do you rate Moores win over Maxim where he completly dominated him? one ATG Light Heavy shutting out another

Chalky Wright.

And yeah, very good. 3-0 against Maxim for Moore, or the 5-0 for Charles, contributes a lot.

[Manassa]

I'm not being sensitive at all.

I agree with the KO pick but I thin it might happen a little earlier, in fact.

You are. You are fucking sensitive.

[GPater11093]

Chalky Wright.

And yeah, very good. 3-0 against Maxim for Moore, or the 5-0 for Charles, contributes a lot.

makes sense just couldnt think of another Wright

[Bill Butcher]

No order....

Ray Robinson
Muhammad Ali
Ray Leonard
Willie Pep
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones
Floyd Mayweather
Thomas Hearns
Roberto Duran
Ricardo Lopez ?

[Addie]

makes sense just couldnt think of another Wright

Me neither. :lol:

[TheGreatA]

Chalky Wright went to a majority decision with Cocoa Kid. Wright was a featherweight while Cocoa Kid was a welterweight. :good

[McGrain]

Chalky Wright went to a majority decision with Cocoa Kid. Wright was a featherweight while Cocoa Kid was a welterweight. :good

Enough to make you wonder? Or just an underated Wright in top gear?

[GPater11093]

Yeh Wright was a solid fighter dotn know too much about him but he was a HUGE puncher i am led to beleive especially for a Featherweight. Bigger than Saddler (Pep says).

Need to do some more research on Wright

[Addie]

No order....

Ali
Robinson
Leonard
Pep
Duran
Jones
Tyson
Lopez
Mayweather
Whitaker
Louis
Hearns
Chavez
Arguello
Nunn
Sanchez
Gomez
Morales
Barrera
Hopkins

Please note... this was thrown together & consists of fighters that Ive seen a lot of, well, it is a list on ability I suppose, fuck it, shoot away.

Orlando Canizales is about equal if not more skilled than half of your list. Go check out his fight with Seabrooks on youtube. It'll blow you away.

[GPater11093]

Orlando Canizales is about equal if not more skilled than half of your list. Go check out his fight with Seabrooks on youtube. It'll blow you away.

you on commision at the Canizales fan club?

been plugging him for the last few days non-stop.

i really need to see him all i have is his fight with Jones

[Addie]

you on commision at the Canizales fan club?
You know how it is when you first discover a new fighter. Exciting times, and it's a bit of an ijustice that guys like you and Bill haven't seen him in action.

i really need to see him all i have is his fight with Jones
A farcry from the real Orlando, who would have smashed Jones to bits down at Bantamweight. Canizales was probably the hardest hitter in the division during his reign at Bantam, and Jones had always been chinny. Even in that fight, Orlando was hurting Jones with a lot of his right hands. Go check out his fight with Seabrooks. It's on youtube, and before Orlando seems to injure both of hi hands (they're swollen in the post fight interview), he's putting on a clinic in combination punching, and hurts Seabrooks with every shot he throws.

[GPater11093]

You know how it is when you first discover a new fighter. Exciting times, and it's a bit of an ijustice that guys like you and Bill haven't seen him in action.



A farcry from the real Orlando, who would have smashed Jones to bits down at Bantamweight. Even in that fight, Orlando was hurting Jones with a lot of his right hands. Go check out his fight with Seabrooks. It's on youtube, and before Orlando seems to break both his hands (they're swollen in the post fight interview), he's putting on a clinic in combination punching, and hurts Seabrooks with every shot he throws.

yeh when i first see fighters i cant shut up about them.

ill check it out but Youtube dosent work well on my computer so ill try get a copy of them on disc

[Addie]

yeh when i first see fighters i cant shut up about them.

ill check it out but Youtube dosent work well on my computer so ill try get a copy of them on disc

I've ordered my Orlando career set, and when they arrive, I have no problems with duplicating all the discs and sending them too you.

[GPater11093]

thats good of you

ill include some extras in the DVDs im sending you then

[Addie]

thats good of you

ill include some extras in the DVDs im sending you then

:good Good stuff.

[PetethePrince]

01 - Sugar Ray Robinson
02 - Henry Armstrong
03 - Muhammad Ali
04 - Roberto Duran
05 - Willie Pep
06 - Joe Louis
07 - Sugar Ray Leonard
08 - Archie Moore
09 - Pernell Whitaker
10 - Billy Conn


That's my ten names on who I think did boxing best based upon film i've seen. Today.

Names that were nagging me that I didn't expect: Jack Johnson(!), Ruben Olivares, Rocky Marciano & Joe Frazier. I think Olivares would make my 20.

Bump Joe Louis down, knock Conn and Moore off. I'd have to think of a few names but that list could be perfect.

[Popkins]

01 - Sugar Ray Robinson
02 - Henry Armstrong
03 - Muhammad Ali
04 - Roberto Duran
05 - Willie Pep
06 - Joe Louis
07 - Sugar Ray Leonard
08 - Archie Moore
09 - Pernell Whitaker
10 - Billy Conn


That's my ten names on who I think did boxing best based upon film i've seen. Today.

Names that were nagging me that I didn't expect: Jack Johnson(!), Ruben Olivares, Rocky Marciano & Joe Frazier. I think Olivares would make my 20.

Ali is a really difficult man to rank I think. In his first reign he was brilliant, but flawed. In his second reign he was physically declined, but masterful. Ultimately though, for all-round ability, I just can't place him on the same level as Duran, Whitaker, Pep or Leonard.

I think of Ali as the bracket below that one, alongside guys like Hagler, Monzon, Olivares, Arguello and the 130-135 Chavez.

What do you think McGrain, am I being unfair on The Greatest?

[natonic]

A shout I haven't seen in this thread. Not a lot of film on him floating around, Tyrone Everett. Watch him school Escalera before Arguello got to him:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

The whole fight is out there. Great abillity..............................


Salvador Sanchez deserves more mention (Bill Butcher did). He had loads of abillity. He had kind of a 6th sense in the ring. I'm not sure if that part of him meets the thread criteria. Always seemed to be a step ahead of his opponent. Never, ever rattled.

[Mantequilla]

Looking at this from the opposite angle for a minute, despite both having plenty of ability, two fighters who would rate a lot lower on head to head prowess than for overall accomplishments for me are Canto and Pac.

Not having canto in a top ten flyweight list is a bit like not having Louis in a heavyweight one.Yet he'd be in the 9 to 15 region of a head to head list for me, and wouldn't make a top 100 head to head i don't think.

Not having Pac in a top 100 P4P seems unfair these days, all things considered.But he likely would struggle to make a top 100 head to head if i did one, and would only be in the top 20 of the junior weightclasses he's fought in.

[McGrain]

Pacquiao is a monster head to head for me.

Not after a long protracted debate here, but what are your main objections? To leaky?

[Sweet Pea]

Pac is a monster against certain styles, against others he wouldn't be made to look quite as good I feel. The best pure boxers and technical box-punchers would beat him at the lower weights, IMO.

[McGrain]

At the lower weights, no doubt.

The thing is, we have one excellent (on the eye) perfromance at LW followed by stellar performances at the weights above. Is it fair to take that form into account in judging Manny versus fighters at LW? Or has moving up benifited him?

[Mantequilla]

I think he's got a great ability to destroy good fighters and maybe brutally surprise a few ecellent ones at all of the weights he's fought at from 126 and up, maybe more than a lot of other all-time greats, but yeah, comparing him to the real top fighters(say those most likely to appear in a top 20) he's either a bit too leaky and disjointed(featherweight)which offsets the physical powerhouse side of things....or from 140 up not quite physically imposing, or hard hitting enough against the real greats there.I see his workrate being shut down against that level of fighter there, and if he starts getting backed up he's no longer nearly as dangerous.

130/135 might be his zone for these kind of head to head things.He would rate highly at 130 for me of course.

[Mantequilla]

What do you guys make of Canto in this case?.As superbly skilled as he was i'e alwyas thought he was a bit too small and lacking in adaptability, which would be tough against the more physically talented little guys.He doesn't match up well with a lot of the other greats imo.

[GPater11093]

On Pac: I think hes one of those fighters that will look great against the slugers etc.. from his weight but the boxers would beat him fairly good.

What do you guys make of Canto in this case?.As superbly skilled as he was i'e alwyas thought he was a bit too small and lacking in adaptability, which would be tough against the more physically talented little guys.He doesn't match up well with a lot of the other greats imo.

I used to think Canto was relly good till i saw Chan Hee Park pick him off in 15 1 sided rounds. Just think he lacks the size as you say and the offence that would let him be able to be more adabtaple

[McGrain]

How easy was it to take Canto out of rythym and plan, do you think?

[Bing]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Roy Jones
3. Muhammed Ali
4. Willie Pep
5. Roberto Duran
6. Pernell Whitaker
7. Sugar Ray Leonard
8. Aaron Pryor
9. Floyd Mayweather
10. Mike Tyson

[GPater11093]

How easy was it to take Canto out of rythym and plan, do you think?

Ill have to watch some more of him but he seemed to keep his rythm fairly well but Park sharp shooted him with laser like precision that kind of threw Canto pretty much from the first round.

I think you would have to be accurate as hell early to throw him off

[Mantequilla]

How easy was it to take Canto out of rythym and plan, do you think?

Not easy at all in a way.I see the problem being he just keeps doing his thing no matter what a lot of the time.If he doesn't get an aggressive fighter or one that makes a lot of mistakes to capitalise on with his counter hooks, his stature becomes a bit of a handicap.Easy to imagine him getting outworked by other great Flyweights, even if they aren't landing much on him.

[GPater11093]

Not easy at all in a way.I see the problem being he just keeps doing his thing no matter what a lot of the time.If he doesn't get an aggressive fighter or one that makes a lot of mistakes to capitalise on with his counter hooks, his stature becomes a bit of a handicap.Easy to imagine him getting outworked by other great Flyweights, even if they aren't landing much on him.

summed it up well, against Park it wasnt so much his rythm tah he threw Canto just didnt know what else to do.

[McGrain]

I think you would have to be accurate as hell early to throw him off


I think that's right...I don't think i'm as down on Canto head to head as Mantequilla is. If he can hold the line he should be ok. He might be vulnerable to certain types though. If my impression is right, in his mid-late seventies best he could inflict his plan.

[teeto]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Roy Jones
3. Muhammed Ali
4. Willie Pep
5. Roberto Duran
6. Pernell Whitaker
7. Sugar Ray Leonard
8. Aaron Pryor
9. Floyd Mayweather
10. Mike Tyson
U spelt Muhammad wrong

[Bing]

U spelt Muhammad wrong

Tit

[goat15]

completeness: robinson, charles

defence only: pep, whitaker

attack only: duran, young ali

if you want to get people into boxing, show them film of these guys...

[PH|LLA]

this is how I make my lists anyways

who are the best fighters in the actual ring

[sweet_scientist]

Prime Canto brings about a Chan Hee Park implosion of Judahian proportions. :good

[Pachilles]

1) Sugar Ray Robinson

2) Muhammad Ali
3) Sugar Ray Leonard
4) Henry Armstrong
5) Pernell Whitaker
6) Roy Jones Jr
7) Willie Pep
8) Manny Pacquiao
9) Roberto Duran

10) Marvin Hagler
11) Ricardo Lopez
12) Thomas Hearns
13) Salvador Sanchez

14) Mike Tyson
15) Joe Louis
16) Jose Napoles

17) Julio Cesar Chavez
18) Archie Moore
19) Floyd Mayweather Jr
20) Ruben Olivares

Darkhorse: Fighting Harada

[PH|LLA]

1. SRR
2. Greb
3. Armstrong
4. Ali
5. Duran
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Benny Leonard
8. Pep
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Joe Louis
11. Archie Moore
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Thomas Hearns
14. Gene Tunney
15. Barney Ross
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Manny Pacquiao
18. Marcel Cerdan
19. Joe Walcott
20. Marvin Hagler

[lora]

This Mantequilla guy was a fraud.

[El Bujia]

this is how I make my lists anyways

who are the best fighters in the actual ringAs opposed to what? Back alleys?