Primo Carnera vs. Floyd Patterson

[cross_trainer]

Carnera is seeing a bit of a renaissance recently as a result of Old Fogey's list. Could he beat Floyd? How do you see this fight unravelling, and what are the major stylistic factors in each fighter's favor?

[Luigi1985]

I don´t know, for Floyd it wouldn´t be such a good matchup. Of course, when you ask this question here, most of the guys probably say Floyd KO´s him in the first rounds, which is total bullshit. Patterson was KD against Harris, a 180 lbs- fighter, who scored 9 KO´s in his whole fights. He was also KD by a debutant, who wasn´t also a big puncher, and so on. Against Carnera, an at least 260 lbs-man with no fat and a 34"- reach, he would be in trouble, because he would need to go in the inside to land his combinations, and Carnera, who wasn´t in general a big puncher (because of his bad punch-technique), had big one-punch-power, which he showed often. And when Primo lands for example a right hand on Floyd´s chin, he wouldn´t get up until 10, Carnera´s chin on the other side is a bit underrated, in his prime (or near his prime) he was only KO´d by 2 of the biggest punchers in the HW- history (Baer and Louis), so Patterson wouldn´t be able to KO him "surely" or so, I wouldn´t automatically favour Carnera, but I give him more chances than Floyd in this one...

[McGrain]

I don´t know, for Floyd it wouldn´t be such a good matchup. I wouldn´t automatically favour Carnera, but I give him more chances than Floyd in this one...

I agree with this.

I'm going to make everyone go batshit by adding that I think Carnera is to big for Patterson. What is it - about 80lbs? In a way that favours Pattersons plan - get inside, work and land the big left if it can be done. That's fine.

Also, Luigi's point about Carnera not having great power is accurate in my view, but I too think it's more a technical problem than anything else. If he hangs around he'll land and if he lands big he'll stop Patterson who has a fragile reputation for a reason, even if it is a little overstated sometimes.

And Carnera CAN hang around. He can be hurt and make it back, as the madness with Baer showed. I would pick Carnera by KO. He could also dominate close if he was smart against the smaller Patterson.

As for Patterson, he has to keep Carenera of balance (an area where he's miles ahead, balance) and keep working, keep landing.

[Luigi1985]

I agree with this.

I'm going to make everyone go batshit by adding that I think Carnera is to big for Patterson. What is it - about 80lbs? In a way that favours Pattersons plan - get inside, work and land the big left if it can be done. That's fine.

Also, Luigi's point about Carnera not having great power is accurate in my view, but I too think it's more a technical problem than anything else. If he hangs around he'll land and if he lands big he'll stop Patterson who has a fragile reputation for a reason, even if it is a little overstated sometimes.

And Carnera CAN hang around. He can be hurt and make it back, as the madness with Baer showed. I would pick Carnera by KO. He could also dominate close if he was smart against the smaller Patterson.

As for Patterson, he has to keep Carenera of balance (an area where he's miles ahead, balance) and keep working, keep landing.



Exactly. You know, at first I didn´t want to post on this, because some idiots like C.M. Clay II would probably say just out of desperation (because they can´t discuss meaningful) that I only favour him because I´m also an Italian or any shit like that. But for me, it hasn´t to do with that, I´m objective, it has to do with the styles of these 2. Carnera´s jab was very good, and Patterson was a typical combination-puncher, but here to land some of his combinations he have to come close, and Carnera, like I wrote, wasn´t a great puncher because of his bad punch-technique, but he had a very good one-punch, definitely enough to KO Patterson cold when he lands. I also think that Carnera´s chin was a bit better than Floyd´s...

[Mankind]

Patterson pounds him pretty easy. Carnera has to land a haymaker but I dont think he has the skills to get it in.

Patterson 9th rd TKO

[Holmes' Jab]

Patterson had too much skill, savvy, handspeed and power for the flat-footed Carnera to handle. Carnera is tough, but Floyd would eventually overwhelm The Ambling Alp just past the mid-rounds.

Patterson TKO7 Carnera

[Luigi1985]

Patterson pounds him pretty easy. Carnera has to land a haymaker but I dont think he has the skills to get it in.

Patterson 9th rd TKO

Who would he get always inside with his shaky chin? You also know that Carnera´s jab was pretty good, so I would like to hear your opinion now...

[Quick Cash]

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree about Primo Carnera's supposed power edge or one-punch power edge, or whatever it is that some of the previous posts are implying here. Floyd packed more dynamite in his 190 pound frame than Primo Carnera could ever muster up from his own 260 body.

Style-wise I admit it would be particularly difficult for Patterson. Carnera used his size well, or at least tried to use his size well most of the time. He was also markedly known for fierce fouling tactics on the inside, not to necessarily be deliberately underhanded I don't think, but it was one of the side-quirks of his anomalous bulk.

The jab would be a non-factor since it was the kind of jab that was effective only on stationary targets, which of course Patterson was not.

[OLD FOGEY]

Carnera is seeing a bit of a renaissance recently as a result of Old Fogey's list. Could he beat Floyd? How do you see this fight unravelling, and what are the major stylistic factors in each fighter's favor?

Patterson is quick and skilled, but he was about the same height and weight as Loughran. Carnera would have about 7 inches and 80-90 lbs weight pull. I think that would make it very tough for Patterson. Carnera stepped about pretty well for such a big man and had stamina. I think he is more likely to wear down Floyd than vice versa. Carnera by decision, but it is a very close choice.

I would point out that Patterson never proved he could deal with even the 210 lb types of his own era. He failed miserably against Liston and Ali and barely edged the 6' 1" 208 lb Chuvalo. The only man over 210 with a winning record he defeated was the aging journeyman, Charley Powell, at 213 lbs. Carnera is another world for Patterson. That is why I would give Carnera a narrow edge.

[mcvey]

Patterson is quick and skilled, but he was about the same height and weight as Loughran. Carnera would have about 7 inches and 80-90 lbs weight pull. I think that would make it very tough for Patterson. Carnera stepped about pretty well for such a big man and had stamina. I think he is more likely to wear down Floyd than vice versa. Carnera by decision, but it is a very close choice.

I would point out that Patterson never proved he could deal with even the 210 lb types of his own era. He failed miserably against Liston and Ali and barely edged the 6' 1" 208 lb Chuvalo. The only man over 210 with a winning record he defeated was the aging journeyman, Charley Powell, at 213 lbs. Carnera is another world for Patterson. That is why I would give Carnera a narrow edge.
I like Floyd here,he has more power ,more speed ,more coordination,Carneras jab may be underated ,but his power isnt,if Loughran a fading light heavy ,devoid of power ,can go the distance without visiting the floor,wobbling Carnera twice ,I think Floyd who is bigger ,faster,and has more power will do as well or better,Carnera never lacked heart ,so he goes the route ,but his huge torso takes a shellacking from Floyds fast combinations.

[Luigi1985]

I like Floyd here,he has more power ,more speed ,more coordination,Carneras jab may be underated ,but his power isnt,if Loughran a fading light heavy ,devoid of power ,can go the distance without visiting the floor,wobbling Carnera twice ,I think Floyd who is bigger ,faster,and has more power will do as well or better,Carnera never lacked heart ,so he goes the route ,but his huge torso takes a shellacking from Floyds fast combinations.


You can always say that, I can counter with "If a LHW and former MW like Durelle can last the distance against Patterson, than Primo would surely do...", against Loughran like so many times after he won the title, he fought a very defensive and safety fight...

[mcvey]

You can always say that, I can counter with "If a LHW and former MW like Durelle can last the distance against Patterson, than Primo would surely do...", against Loughran like so many times after he won the title, he fought a very defensive and safety fight...
Just my take on it L ,you pays your money and takes your choice.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=OLD FOGEY]Patterson is quick and skilled, but he was about the same height and weight as Loughran. Carnera would have about 7 inches and 80-90 lbs weight pull. I think that would make it very tough for Patterson.

Precisely why I'd pick Nikolay Valuev to beat Rocky Marciano.

[mcvey]

Just my take on it L ,you pays your money and takes your choice.
Against a non hitter over 80lbs lighter why would Carnera fight a safety first defensive fight? By the way Patterson kod Durelle in 5 rounds 1955.

[Luigi1985]

[

Precisely why I'd pick Nikolay Valuev to beat Rocky Marciano.


But it´s also a style-thing, Marciano had an iron-chin, which he would need to come inside to land something, Patterson is exactly the opposite...

[OLD FOGEY]

[

Precisely why I'd pick Nikolay Valuev to beat Rocky Marciano.

Valuev may have a better chin, although I'm not certain it has been tested by a really big puncher, but Valuev does not seem to have Carnera's stamina, which was unusual for a big man.

[mr. magoo]

Valuev may have a better chin, although I'm not certain it has been tested by a really big puncher, but Valuev does not seem to have Carnera's stamina, which was unusual for a big man.

I've never seen a fight of Valuev's that he did not finish.

[C. M. Clay II]

Patterson is too fast with those combos. I'd say Carnera gets busted up with those quick combos. Patterosn gets him by ten rounds.:good

[ChrisPontius]

Valuev may have a better chin, although I'm not certain it has been tested by a really big puncher, but Valuev does not seem to have Carnera's stamina, which was unusual for a big man.

Actually he does. Or well, of course he never went the full 15. But he went 12 with absolutely no problem or sign of being tired. He plods forward all the time throwing quite some punches, mostly jabs. His chin has been tested by big punching Chagaev who couldn't hurt or faze him. I think Valuev is one of the most durable heavyweights of all time, he just doesn't seem to even be bothered when flush combinations bounce of his gigantic cranium. Although he has only faced one good puncher, most of those 230lb+ guys can really crack and while they lack on offensive ability, Valuev has a rather poor defense and has always had to eat a lot of shots, but no matter.

Carnera is quite ahead in defense and power, stamina maybe equal. Valuev is in another dimension when it comes to chin. Overal Carnera is better and certainly more accomplished.

[OLD FOGEY]

I've never seen a fight of Valuev's that he did not finish.

I'm judging by his out of gas performance versus Chagaev, and that was the 12th, not the 15th round. Valuev slowed visibly as the fight drew on.

[OLD FOGEY]

Actually he does. Or well, of course he never went the full 15. But he went 12 with absolutely no problem or sign of being tired. He plods forward all the time throwing quite some punches, mostly jabs. His chin has been tested by big punching Chagaev who couldn't hurt or faze him. I think Valuev is one of the most durable heavyweights of all time, he just doesn't seem to even be bothered when flush combinations bounce of his gigantic cranium. Although he has only faced one good puncher, most of those 230lb+ guys can really crack and while they lack on offensive ability, Valuev has a rather poor defense and has always had to eat a lot of shots, but no matter.

Carnera is quite ahead in defense and power, stamina maybe equal. Valuev is in another dimension when it comes to chin. Overal Carnera is better and certainly more accomplished.

Actually, Carnera was in against a lot of big guys also, but this brings up the issue of what is big. Chagaev is 6' 1", shorter than Louis or Baer, and not in the best of shape. When has he, or any of Valuev's other opponents, shown really big power. Carnera went a long ways without his chin betraying him, he was even credited with a top chin, until he got in with the really heavy hitters.
Let's see what happens if Valuev gets in with someone like Wlad Klitschko or Samuel Peter.

To me, Valuev looked dead tired against Chagaev in the last few rounds. I doubt it if he could have gone 15. He would probably have dropped like Cooney did against Holmes.

[ChrisPontius]

Actually, Carnera was in against a lot of big guys also, but this brings up the issue of what is big. Chagaev is 6' 1", shorter than Louis or Baer, and not in the best of shape. When has he, or any of Valuev's other opponents, shown really big power. Carnera went a long ways without his chin betraying him, he was even credited with a top chin, until he got in with the really heavy hitters.
Let's see what happens if Valuev gets in with someone like Wlad Klitschko or Samuel Peter.

To me, Valuev looked dead tired against Chagaev in the last few rounds. I doubt it if he could have gone 15. He would probably have dropped like Cooney did against Holmes.

First of all, he paced and trained for 12 rounds, not 15. If he was ready to go 3 more rounds after 12, then that only speaks against him because it would mean he didn't spend all his energy which is pretty dumb. I didn't think he tired that badly actually, from memory he was still coming forward and throwing punches, maybe i have to re-watch.

And punching power is not about height, but about weight. Chagaev has a tank-like build and although he could lose some weight, he optimises power and strength while sacrificing some stamina because he doesn't have to go 15. He fights well at his current weight.

You have a good point about Carnera's chin, but it's hard for me to judge because i have not seen a whole lot of his fights in DVD quality where every punch is clearly visible.

[OLD FOGEY]

First of all, he paced and trained for 12 rounds, not 15. If he was ready to go 3 more rounds after 12, then that only speaks against him because it would mean he didn't spend all his energy which is pretty dumb. I didn't think he tired that badly actually, from memory he was still coming forward and throwing punches, maybe i have to re-watch.

And punching power is not about height, but about weight. Chagaev has a tank-like build and although he could lose some weight, he optimises power and strength while sacrificing some stamina because he doesn't have to go 15. He fights well at his current weight.

You have a good point about Carnera's chin, but it's hard for me to judge because i have not seen a whole lot of his fights in DVD quality where every punch is clearly visible.

Punching power is about punching power. Not about height or weight. My point is that I am totally unconvinced that Chagaev is really bigger than Baer or Louis, who went about 210 and 205 in top, lean condition. Chagaev has a spare tire.
And whatever you think of his size, when has Chagaev shown really superior power?

[janitor]

[

Precisely why I'd pick Nikolay Valuev to beat Rocky Marciano.

The crucial diference is that Carnera is a fighter extensively proven at world level.

Valuev is not.

I am frankly not convinced that he would even have made it into title contention in Marciano's era.

[DocDevil]

Carnera has gotten better as time goes on.In th 60's and 70's,inept giant were the words used to describe him.

[ChrisPontius]

Punching power is about punching power. Not about height or weight. My point is that I am totally unconvinced that Chagaev is really bigger than Baer or Louis, who went about 210 and 205 in top, lean condition. Chagaev has a spare tire.
And whatever you think of his size, when has Chagaev shown really superior power?

Chagaev appears to have a wider frame than them. Bulking up does make you punch harder to a certain degree and at cost of stamina.
He scored 17 knockouts in 23 fights, knocked Sprott out with a few punches although indeed his big fights (Virchis, Ruiz & Valuev) have gone the distance.

The only one in the division that is clearly a level above him in punching is Klitschko. He is one of the hardest punchers around in the division, that should count for something.

[OLD FOGEY]

Chagaev appears to have a wider frame than them. Bulking up does make you punch harder to a certain degree and at cost of stamina.
He scored 17 knockouts in 23 fights, knocked Sprott out with a few punches although indeed his big fights (Virchis, Ruiz & Valuev) have gone the distance.

The only one in the division that is clearly a level above him in punching is Klitschko. He is one of the hardest punchers around in the division, that should count for something.

Okay, perhaps he will end up being considered a better puncher than Baer, but I still think he has a long way to go. And an even longer way to be considered a better puncher than Louis. The only other guy to ko Carnera prior to WWII was Leroy Haynes and he could really punch also.

*Josef Zupan was formally listed as a knockout defeat by Carnera. Recent research, according to boxrec, reveals this fight was actually a Carnera knockout victory.

[ChrisPontius]

Of course, Chagaev is not in the league of Louis as a puncher. Probably does not have Baer's power either but he is technically more adept than Baer and he doesn't clown around. Bottomline is that he's a good puncher and that Valuev did not get close to being stunned, hurt, staggered or knocked down.

[rendog67]

by what ive seen of the 2 fighters this is one of the only big names in the heavyweight division i would take primo to defeat

[Bo Bo Olson]

Jack in the Box Patterson, was always on his ass....part of his style, and he jumped at folks a lot...so his balance was bad..... And in Patterson we have the reputed second or first fastest heavy of all time. at 36/7 he sure had Ali running backwards very ungracefully for five of the 7 rounds.....
4KO's Thors Hammer (that did Machen in in 1), then being Spinks stupid twice vs Liston... and the last fight with Ali..The Same Ali who one -two punched essencially Lyle and Forman....I call the Liston punch great, but there was no count...and in the old days one was told to get up at 9....look at Jerov vs Moore, had he stayed down to nine, it would have been no big deal but he was wobbling all over the place....
Sure Patterson would go down, may be twice, but I think he'd win a easy decision.

So in a way I think Patterson Glass jaw was pyrodex.
PS. I bet Patterson the second fight too, thinking he'd run a bit.

[PowerPuncher]

Who would he get always inside with his shaky chin? You also know that Carnera´s jab was pretty good, so I would like to hear your opinion now...

Floyd was 1 of the best I've seen at getting inside amazingly quickly and landing super fast power punches. A Dempsey-Willard style demolition where the far faster powerful smaller man takes out the much bigger slower fighter. Although I'd expect Patteron to box more.

Floyd beat plenty of big punchers like Bonevenna, Quarrey, Johanssen, Moore, Cooper. Was Carnera better offensively than all of those? Ali was a big guy who didn't put Patterson away too easily - did Carnera have a better arsenal than Alis (who doesnt have the most dangerous arsenal ever but it is pretty underated)

[PowerPuncher]

Jack in the Box Patterson, was always on his ass....part of his style, and he jumped at folks a lot...so his balance was bad..... .

This is a big part of the younger Patterson, he was always launching leaping attacks leaving himself wide open and off balance. His chin isn't as bad as some claim

[Luigi1985]

Floyd was 1 of the best I've seen at getting inside amazingly quickly and landing super fast power punches. A Dempsey-Willard style demolition where the far faster powerful smaller man takes out the much bigger slower fighter. Although I'd expect Patteron to box more.

Floyd beat plenty of big punchers like Bonevenna, Quarrey, Johanssen, Moore, Cooper. Was Carnera better offensively than all of those? Ali was a big guy who didn't put Patterson away too easily - did Carnera have a better arsenal than Alis (who doesnt have the most dangerous arsenal ever but it is pretty underated)


I know that Patterson was very quick at coming inside, but Carnera had a good jab, compared with his 34-reach it´s a dangerous combination. And Carnera´s chin is underrated, lot of people still say he was chinny and so on, but that´s absolutely not true. In his prime (or near) he was only KO´d by 2 of the greatest punchers ever, in Baer and Louis. Patterson had also power, but not in their league, so I don´t see a Patterson- KO. Primo on the other side, had enough one-punch- power to KO big guys with good chins like Bearcat Wright, Sharkey, Campolo, Neusel, etc., so a Carnera-KO wouldn´t be that surprising...

[Luigi1985]

So, you think Carnera´s jab would pose Patterson a problem when he avoided Ali´s far superior jab with great regularity while beeing past his prime?


Ali was much smaller than Carnera, and had a total another style, you can´t compare them, I know that Ali´s jab was better than Carnera´s, but style-wise that matchup wouldn´t be so good for Floyd.

[Luigi1985]

Sure, there is no comparison between Ali and Carnera stylewise but you where talking about Carnera´s jab and how it would pose problems for Patterson. I disagree there. You could also watch the Liston fights and see how Patterson dodged his jab, he just had success because he started jabbing the shoulders and i doubt Carnera would do something similar. Patterson had great headmovement and was very good at acvoiding jabs. I don´t think Carnera´s would play a major role.


We can´t really judge the the Sonny-fight, because Liston KO´d him twice in the 1st round. Don´t forget, to avoid always jabs when you´re so much smaller is very arduous, I don´t know if he could do that for 15 rounds.

[janitor]

To be honest this is a pick em fight.

If people atribute general superiority of one era over another they are missing most of the picture. If a guy is a top fighter in one era he will be a handfull in any era because every man has a chin.

I can see Patterson outboxing and outpointin Carnera while looking like a midget on the inside, and I can see him being knocked out or outpointed himself.