Soviet Fighters- Injuries

[magnificentdave]

Bob Arum: You know something, also, you’re going to see, at least for the next few years, a lot of injuries occurring in training to those fighters who were raised in the Soviet system. The reason for that is, as young athletes, they were fed steroids and their bodies are breaking-down from the steroids.

What do you guys think of this statement?

[Relentless]

i wouldn't be surprised if that was really true.

[magnificentdave]

I wouldn't either, I know I grew up with tales of how the communists used undetectable steroids to stay competitive in the Olympics, for any fighter that is true for, the long term side effects cannot be discounted, but I don't know anything about the factual medical aspect of the notion.

[Relentless]

i've watched a few videos and documentaries were young soviet kids were performing insane jumps and other plyometric activites, i didn't think things like that would be possible for kids.

[magnificentdave]

Surely people find this topic ATLEAST as interesting as Jack Presscot's latest crossdressing thread, maybe I should have made the tital "Soviet Gay Sex Scandal"

[Doomas]

Bullshit

[LeonMcS]

I think Arum may have watched Rocky IV a few too many times.

[darkness]

Yea i really just think Bob is trying to rationalize hte unfortunate rash of injuries.

[Gabriel R.]

Doping is not only part of the Soviet system, it's part of professional sports in general. In communism, they doped their sportsmen for political reasons, in capitalism it is done for financial reasons. Seen this way, the occurence of injuries shouldn't be more often among ex-Soviet fighters, if doping was the cause. I rather think it's the training methods of the Soviet System and other socialistic or communist countries. What I've got to know there, is partially pure insanity. Much more torture than training.

[magnificentdave]

I was thinking something along the same lines Gabriel, mostly based on accounts of Vassily Jirov's early training techniques.

[Zakman]

What do you guys think of this statement?

I think it's probably quite accurate.:yep

[TanstA]

Must be mad that Russians are the top dogs.

I can't speak on Vitali but Chagaev and Maskaev are natural heavyweights. They aren't ripped like Holyfield.

I dont even understand why he would even get into this.

The majority of russian athletes during the USSR days were naturally athletic. Nobody was fed anything.

If athletes wanted to bulk up, they could on their own just like people over here.

[KO byBRIGGS]

It is likely very accurate, there is other documented histories of this type of doping children like the east germans in the 80's the women looked like men. Steroids are a bigger part of all professional sports than most people want to admit. Doping is at an all time high, just lookat the recent steroid bust in the US. The problem is growing nto shrinking, I firmly beleive more than 50% of ALL professional athletes dope in one way or another if not more.

[LeonMcS]

Ahem...

[The Kurgan]

Doping is not only part of the Soviet system, it's part of professional sports in general. In communism, they doped their sportsmen for political reasons, in capitalism it is done for financial reasons. Seen this way, the occurence of injuries shouldn't be more often among ex-Soviet fighters, if doping was the cause. I rather think it's the training methods of the Soviet System and other socialistic or communist countries. What I've got to know there, is partially pure insanity. Much more torture than training.

True. American Olympic athletes had just as ready access- if not moreso- to steroids and other "performance enhancing" substances as Soviet, East German and Bulgarian athletes, but were drastically inferior in most sports. The difference was that there were two big differences between American and Eastern European training: 1, the Soviets etc. picked their athletes from a very young age, put them in special sports-schools, and gave them both intense physical training and a huge degree of sports-focused training (which gave Eastern Bloc athletes a far degree of knowledge and initiative than their more robotic Western counterparts); and 2, speaking as someone who has done a lot of Russian/Bulgarian weightlifting routines, their train far harder. The Smolov squat routine, for instance, is about 11 weeks of high intensity, high frequency, high volume training.

These methods produced some of the most amazing results in sports history: the GDR by the 1970s and 1980s usually got significantly more gold medals than the USA, despite having only 16 million people and much smaller budgets for their training. The USSR won pretty much every Olympics; even after they broke up, the CIS (which didn't even contain every Soviet Republic) smoked the world at the 1992 Olympics. These nations were, in short, bad-ass factories that produced intelligent and supremely fit athletes.

The problem is that, if you're the "right" human shape, like Pavel or the Soviet track-and-field athletes, this will indeed give you a life-long healthy body. Pavel has to be getting on now, but there isn't a neck on this site that he couldn't snap in seconds (before doing some pull-ups on a wall and swinging some kettlebells around). If you're the "wrong" human shape, ie. out of the parameters that human organs and bones are designed for, like Vitali or Maskaev, there's probably trouble afoot. It doesn't help that many Eastern European fighters are getting a bit old, and old bodies are less capable of dealing with their intense training.

But injuries are hardly purely found amongst Eastern European boxers. Calzaghe has china hands, but is a Welshman of Italian descent. Holyfield, if you'd believe him, has barely ever had a fight without some injury or sickness, and he's an African-American. I suppose one thing that Holyfield, Calzaghe, Vitali, Maskaev etc. etc. all have in common is that they're gym-rats, which for all its benefits has its cost for the physical constitution.

[Darien]

True. American Olympic athletes had just as ready access- if not moreso- to steroids and other "performance enhancing" substances as Soviet, East German and Bulgarian athletes, but were drastically inferior in most sports. The difference was that there were two big differences between American and Eastern European training: 1, the Soviets etc. picked their athletes from a very young age, put them in special sports-schools, and gave them both intense physical training and a huge degree of sports-focused training (which gave Eastern Bloc athletes a far degree of knowledge and initiative than their more robotic Western counterparts); and 2, speaking as someone who has done a lot of Russian/Bulgarian weightlifting routines, their train far harder. The Smolov squat routine, for instance, is about 11 weeks of high intensity, high frequency, high volume training.

These methods produced some of the most amazing results in sports history: the GDR by the 1970s and 1980s usually got significantly more gold medals than the USA, despite having only 16 million people and much smaller budgets for their training. The USSR won pretty much every Olympics; even after they broke up, the CIS (which didn't even contain every Soviet Republic) smoked the world at the 1992 Olympics. These nations were, in short, bad-ass factories that produced intelligent and supremely fit athletes.

The problem is that, if you're the "right" human shape, like Pavel or the Soviet track-and-field athletes, this will indeed give you a life-long healthy body. Pavel has to be getting on now, but there isn't a neck on this site that he couldn't snap in seconds (before doing some pull-ups on a wall and swinging some kettlebells around). If you're the "wrong" human shape, ie. out of the parameters that human organs and bones are designed for, like Vitali or Maskaev, there's probably trouble afoot. It doesn't help that many Eastern European fighters are getting a bit old, and old bodies are less capable of dealing with their intense training.

But injuries are hardly purely found amongst Eastern European boxers. Calzaghe has china hands, but is a Welshman of Italian descent. Holyfield, if you'd believe him, has barely ever had a fight without some injury or sickness, and he's an African-American. I suppose one thing that Holyfield, Calzaghe, Vitali, Maskaev etc. etc. all have in common is that they're gym-rats, which for all its benefits has its cost for the physical constitution.
Excellent post! :good

[Loufatski]

i wouldn't be surprised if that was really true.

how gullible are you?

[Loufatski]

What do you guys think of this statement?

Bob Arum is a fucking idiot.

[Cruiser1]

I don't know. I don't particularly care for the Eastern European fighters cuz of their boring styles and personalities but I'm not gonna speculate on whether they were using steroids or not. I am aware of how their sports program works and I will say that those guys work their asses off and take their boxing very seriously. It's no surprise that they've enjoyed the kind of olympic and professional success that they have to this point.

[Loufatski]

Must be mad that Russians are the top dogs.

I can't speak on Vitali but Chagaev and Maskaev are natural heavyweights. They aren't ripped like Holyfield.

I dont even understand why he would even get into this.

The majority of russian athletes during the USSR days were naturally athletic. Nobody was fed anything.

If athletes wanted to bulk up, they could on their own just like people over here.

The fact remains that Eastern Europeans are genetically big strong people. Look at the strongman competitions, boxing, tennis, hockey, etc.. Even the fastest and strongest non black runners and b-ball players are from there.

[Loufatski]

I don't know. I don't particularly care for the Eastern European fighters cuz of their boring styles and personalities but I'm not gonna speculate on whether they were using steroids or not. I am aware of how their sports program works and I will say that those guys work their asses off and take their boxing very seriously. It's no surprise that they've enjoyed the kind of olympic and professional success that they have to this point.

Boring styles? ... as in Golota-Bowe, Lewis-Vitaly? or Wlad's bombs? that's boring? And I don't understand what you mean by boring personalities... because they're class act athletes and they don't wear skirts in the ring? or act like rapper pimps?

[MrSmall]

I am of the opinion that the benefit of starting training at a young age, is that a young man's body can take SO much more than an older man. Mistakes can be fixed, you can be pushed VERY far.
When you get to the point far, far away from where you started, when you get older you will be that normal bit more aged and less athletic than your younger days, but your younger days will be that much better than the other guy's younger days.
Just a thought!

[Thread Stealer]

It wouldn't surprise me either. Not just Soviet athletes, but athletes from all over the globe.

[Cruiser1]

Boring styles? ... as in Golota-Bowe, Lewis-Vitaly? or Wlad's bombs? that's boring? And I don't understand what you mean by boring personalities... because they're class act athletes and they don't wear skirts in the ring? or act like rapper pimps?

Of course man. How could I forget? Class act athletes who give their mandatories the run around and pull out of their fights at the last minute after cancellations or trying to outright avoid them. Stop picking at my posts. Just take a look at any press conference. They're fucking BORING! These guys have zero personality. There must be some truth to what I'm saying cuz u responded and ur reaching with Bowe/Golota cuz Golota is a nutcase. He didn't even win either fight against Bowe. He couldn't finish him off cuz he's a mental case. Same with Vitali who had Lewis ready to go. He's not a mental case, just a bullshitter who can take notes from his brother on how to be a champion.

[NBT]

Has nothing to do with roids, US "atheltes" use them just as much, if not more, anyway. The injuries have something to with intense physical training over a long period of time. If you push your body to the limit from a young age for like 20 years it will eventually take its toll when you're approaching 40. US "athlets" usually just sit on their fat ass because they believe training is for talentless losers.

[emanuel_augustus]

Bob Arum: You know something, also, you’re going to see, at least for the next few years, a lot of injuries occurring in training to those fighters who were raised in the Soviet system. The reason for that is, as young athletes, they were fed steroids and their bodies are breaking-down from the steroids.

Well, considering how the "Soviet" system collapsed 17 years ago, unless this new crop was given roids at like age 6, I think it's a stupid, unsubstantiated statement.

I have no idea how clean the Russian and satellite republic programs are today, but just by looking at these guys, you'd have to not suspect roids.

Arum shouldn't just make statements out of his ass with zero documentation. Hate that.

[lightning punch]

might be true

[bigeddie27]

i think streiods are more prevelant among all fighters. more so then we probably think. I have just learned to accept it. you are not going to stop them

[PolishPummler]

It may be true in some cases but not all.

[PolishPummler]

Of course man. How could I forget? Class act athletes who give their mandatories the run around and pull out of their fights at the last minute after cancellations or trying to outright avoid them. Stop picking at my posts. Just take a look at any press conference. They're fucking BORING! These guys have zero personality. There must be some truth to what I'm saying cuz u responded and ur reaching with Bowe/Golota cuz Golota is a nutcase. He didn't even win either fight against Bowe. He couldn't finish him off cuz he's a mental case. Same with Vitali who had Lewis ready to go. He's not a mental case, just a bullshitter who can take notes from his brother on how to be a champion.

This guy falls into the insecure/jealous Pole category.

Dont mind him.

[Brickhaus]

There is documented evidence that the soviets were doping; however, the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 (16 years ago), as did the athletic program. Most of the current former Soviet fighters are too young to have received much by the way of steroids, so I doubt this is really the case. For Maskaev and Vitali, maybe I can see it, but the other former soviets are too young.

[Doomas]

Doping theory is bs, the main reason of injuries is training methods and theres shit loads of trainers these days (in both Russia and ex SU countreys) that still use the same methods wich were used 20 + ears ago.

[Cruiser1]

This guy falls into the insecure/jealous Pole category.

Dont mind him.

Jealous of what? Ur upset cuz i said I thought Briggs beat Adamek twice. That makes me objective. Somebody got upset at me for saying it. You remembered that I'm Polish so I'm guessing it was u. There are people on this site who will never say anything negative against fighters of their same heritage. Never!

Anyway, I'm not jealous about the Eastern European fighters. When I want to watch an exciting heavyweight fight I'll go throw in a tape of Holyfield/Bowe or Tua/Ibeabuchi. When I want to watch a good interview I'll watch Mike Tyson. Even Lennox Lewis had a little dry wit that was fun.

[drunkenspaniard]

I read an article a few years back about how a lot of older, former USSR Olympians (no just boxers) were having health related issues as a result of the steroids they took during competition. However, as many of the other posters have stated, most of the boxers would've been far too young to have been subjected to steroids. That's just my two cents.

[Orang-Utan Jim]

Arums statement is pure nonsense. He takes two former Soviet boxer (Klitschko, Maskaev) who are coincidally injured at almost the same time to make a blanket word like this about "the" Soviet boxers.
Why in hell for example Wlad Klitschko is almost never injured or Valuev or Chagaev (Hep B is not soviet) or Ibragimov or Ivan Drago?

And the americans or western europeans took and take steroids all over the country as well as the russians. But never injured???

So Arum maybe just tried to discredit the Soviets with that statement. I don´t know....a proper explanation is not needed, because Maskaev for example never was injured in his career until now at the age of 38. So Arum should better shut up.

[LeonMcS]

Didn't Arum once confess in front of a boxing commission in the 90's that '...yesterday I was lying, today I'm telling the truth.' If indeed it was him, yeah, no credibility issues at all...

[Cruiser1]

Arums statement is pure nonsense. He takes two former Soviet boxer (Klitschko, Maskaev) who are coincidally injured at almost the same time to make a blanket word like this about "the" Soviet boxers.
Why in hell for example Wlad Klitschko is almost never injured or Valuev or Chagaev (Hep B is not soviet) or Ibragimov or Ivan Drago?

And the americans or western europeans took and take steroids all over the country as well as the russians. But never injured???

So Arum maybe just tried to discredit the Soviets with that statement. I don´t know....a proper explanation is not needed, because Maskaev for example never was injured in his career until now at the age of 38. So Arum should better shut up.

It's not a good idea to be spreading rumors about steroids. It's defamation of one's character and it's wrong. :twisted:

[PolishPummler]

Jealous of what? Ur upset cuz i said I thought Briggs beat Adamek twice. That makes me objective. Somebody got upset at me for saying it. You remembered that I'm Polish so I'm guessing it was u. There are people on this site who will never say anything negative against fighters of their same heritage. Never!

Anyway, I'm not jealous about the Eastern European fighters. When I want to watch an exciting heavyweight fight I'll go throw in a tape of Holyfield/Bowe or Tua/Ibeabuchi. When I want to watch a good interview I'll watch Mike Tyson. Even Lennox Lewis had a little dry wit that was fun.

I'm sorry that they make you feel uncomfortable in your own skin.

I'm sure you wish they went back to the days of being BROKE so that you can feel like you are BIGGER and BETTER than everyone everytime you visit.

You should be lined up and shot!