Was Liston's reach really 84

[fg2227]

Seems too long.

[mcvey]

Seems too long.
Veeeeery Looooong FINGeeeeeers!

[ChrisPontius]

I don't doubt the measurement.

What has to be understood is that it is merely the wingspan which is not related as much to punching reach as you would be inclined to think.

Ali, at 6'3, had been measured to have a reach of 79" live on a TV show (some sources have it higher), easily outreached Liston and seemed to have the longer arms. Cleveland Williams, also 6'3, also had a reach of 79" and also had far longer reach than Liston.
Height, build and speed are far, far more important factors when it comes to being able to hit someone than the shallow measurement of "reach". Louis had only 76" reach but he was able to hit anyone, and hard. All about Timing and speed. Marciano was able to overcome a 67" reach with unorthodox timing, feints and a weird style. No problem.

The argument "Liston outjabs him with his long arms" is ridiculous, unless he's fighting a middleweight. His arms weren't any more longer than most heavyweights.

[Luigi1985]

I don't doubt the measurement.

What has to be understood is that it is merely the wingspan which is not related as much to punching reach as you would be inclined to think.

Ali, at 6'3, had been measured to have a reach of 79" live on a TV show (some sources have it higher), easily outreached Liston and seemed to have the longer arms. Cleveland Williams, also 6'3, also had a reach of 79" and also had far longer reach than Liston.
Height, build and speed are far, far more important factors when it comes to being able to hit someone than the shallow measurement of "reach". Louis had only 76" reach but he was able to hit anyone, and hard. All about Timing and speed. Marciano was able to overcome a 67" reach with unorthodox timing, feints and a weird style. No problem.

The argument "Liston outjabs him with his long arms" is ridiculous, unless he's fighting a middleweight. His arms weren't any more longer than most heavyweights.



:good

[mcvey]

I don't doubt the measurement.

What has to be understood is that it is merely the wingspan which is not related as much to punching reach as you would be inclined to think.

Ali, at 6'3, had been measured to have a reach of 79" live on a TV show (some sources have it higher), easily outreached Liston and seemed to have the longer arms. Cleveland Williams, also 6'3, also had a reach of 79" and also had far longer reach than Liston.
Height, build and speed are far, far more important factors when it comes to being able to hit someone than the shallow measurement of "reach". Louis had only 76" reach but he was able to hit anyone, and hard. All about Timing and speed. Marciano was able to overcome a 67" reach with unorthodox timing, feints and a weird style. No problem.

The argument "Liston outjabs him with his long arms" is ridiculous, unless he's fighting a middleweight. His arms weren't any more longer than most heavyweights.
Jimmy Bivins had extraordinarily long arms,dont know what his reach was.

[Polymath]

<His arms weren't any more longer than most heavyweights.>

BS. Do you realise how freakishly long 84" is? Lewis, 6'5" and considered 'long' for his height is less. Yes, Sonny had very wide shoulders which contrbuted to his Condor like span, but his arms were also freakishly long, not to mention the biggest fist measurement in history. See the non-boxing footage of Sonny; his arms are literally down by his knees.

Liston was a hair over 6' yet dominated for most of his career with a jab alone, that in itself must tell you something.

[Vantage_West]

Jimmy Bivins had extraordinarily long arms,dont know what his reach was.90 wasnt it i remember somone saying how a heavywieght in the 30's had a 90 inch reach. and actually had a picture to prove it.


anyways i have always thought that shoulders seem to take most of the "reach" as it were are 2 arms and the distance between shoulders.

guys like eder jofre had the shortes reach in championship history but it wasnt his short arms(well they were short but not as short as people think) it was his compact shoulders
same with ernell whitaker ho had shoulder that seem to be attacthed to his neck could easily out jab anyone he wanted.

[Marciano Frazier]

Liston was only 6'1" or so, but he had extremely long arms proportionate to his height(watch him jabbing in the Machen fight, for example- his left looks almost disproportionately long) and extremely broad shoulders, so I don't really question the 84" mark for his reach.

[janitor]

I don't doubt the measurement.

What has to be understood is that it is merely the wingspan which is not related as much to punching reach as you would be inclined to think.

Ali, at 6'3, had been measured to have a reach of 79" live on a TV show (some sources have it higher), easily outreached Liston and seemed to have the longer arms. Cleveland Williams, also 6'3, also had a reach of 79" and also had far longer reach than Liston.
Height, build and speed are far, far more important factors when it comes to being able to hit someone than the shallow measurement of "reach". Louis had only 76" reach but he was able to hit anyone, and hard. All about Timing and speed. Marciano was able to overcome a 67" reach with unorthodox timing, feints and a weird style. No problem.

The argument "Liston outjabs him with his long arms" is ridiculous, unless he's fighting a middleweight. His arms weren't any more longer than most heavyweights.

As you say the wingspan dose not tell the whole story. In Listons case a lot of it was shoulders.

Even so he did have abnormaly long arms relative to his height.

[Duodenum]

I don't doubt the measurement.

What has to be understood is that it is merely the wingspan which is not related as much to punching reach as you would be inclined to think.

Ali, at 6'3, had been measured to have a reach of 79" live on a TV show (some sources have it higher), easily outreached Liston and seemed to have the longer arms. Cleveland Williams, also 6'3, also had a reach of 79" and also had far longer reach than Liston.
Height, build and speed are far, far more important factors when it comes to being able to hit someone than the shallow measurement of "reach". Louis had only 76" reach but he was able to hit anyone, and hard. All about Timing and speed. Marciano was able to overcome a 67" reach with unorthodox timing, feints and a weird style. No problem.

The argument "Liston outjabs him with his long arms" is ridiculous, unless he's fighting a middleweight. His arms weren't any more longer than most heavyweights.Excellent post. Back in the 1980's, when Randy Gordon was providing color commentary (I believe on ESPN), he tried to introduce jab length as a standard measurement, recording reach from the ends of the collarbone to the ends of the arms, but this was a novel specification, one not supported by history and tradition.

Although a long overall reach could be a misleading statistic, I'd imagine this is much more rarely the case for a short overall reach like Marciano's. It's difficult to believe that a 67 inch reach could include deceptively long arms.

Ultimately, angles, timing, speed, mobility, and straightness of punches can overcome such a disadvantage.

Both Valuev and Carnera are recorded as having an 85" inch wingspan. Assuming they have equally long arms, if they were to meet in competition I would imagine that Carnera would enjoy having a reach advantage by being able to punch straight across, as opposed to Valuev having to punch down at an angle against his shorter adversary, but that's mere speculation on my part. (Of course great height can have defensive value in avoiding and reducing the impact of head shots, as Willard demonstrated against Jack Johnson in Havana, rising up on his toes and leaning back whenever Johnson went on the attack.)

Carnera wasn't the tallest boxer of his era, nor did he have the longest arms, but he certainly made far better use of his reach than Impelletiere, Campolo or Buddy Baer, especially with his jab. (And Primo did beat Impelletiere and Campolo handily.)

Mike Dokes is a very good example of somebody with an impressive overall reach, but rather short arms, in comparison to a long collarbone (broad shoulders).

[ChrisPontius]

Both Valuev and Carnera are recorded as having an 85" inch wingspan. Assuming they have equally long arms, if they were to meet in competition I would imagine that Carnera would enjoy having a reach advantage by being able to punch straight across, as opposed to Valuev having to punch down at an angle against his shorter adversary, but that's mere speculation on my part.

Actually it would be the other way around. Punches (and arms) start from the shoulders, and Carnera's face would be exactly at shoulder's height. So, Valuev will have the ideal situation of punching right straight forward to hit his opponent. It is Carnera who will have to punch up somewhat unless he goes to the body. Of course Valuev isn't the most athletically talented guy so this advantage is not really that big.

[Mendoza]

Actually it would be the other way around. Punches (and arms) start from the shoulders, and Carnera's face would be exactly at shoulder's height. So, Valuev will have the ideal situation of punching right straight forward to hit his opponent. It is Carnera who will have to punch up somewhat unless he goes to the body. Of course Valuev isn't the most athletically talented guy so this advantage is not really that big.

Right. Punches start from the shoulder. Taller fighters tend to line their shoulders up to shorter fighters chins.

[Duodenum]

Actually it would be the other way around. Punches (and arms) start from the shoulders, and Carnera's face would be exactly at shoulder's height. So, Valuev will have the ideal situation of punching right straight forward to hit his opponent. It is Carnera who will have to punch up somewhat unless he goes to the body. Of course Valuev isn't the most athletically talented guy so this advantage is not really that big.As I stated, mere speculation on my part, and Carnera did have some early difficulty with Impelletiere, so this is perfectly reasonable.

[Titan1]

Carl" The Truth" Williams was 85"

[DamonD]

BS. Do you realise how freakishly long 84" is? Lewis, 6'5" and considered 'long' for his height is less.
No, it's the same actually...Lewis also had an 84" reach.

But as said, wingspan alone is no solid guide.
Julius Long has a 90" reach but, well, we know all about Julius's problems :)

[Polymath]

<But as said, wingspan alone is no solid guide.>

Huh?

It's a guide to what somebody's reach is, which is the point of the thread.

Lewis is about 82" imo (I do not take most sources of 'stats' seriously.)

Another guy with a huge wingspan is Rahman, 6'2" and about 82"

[Cojimar 1945]

Sources disagree considerably on Carnera's measurements but many tale of the tapes in newspaper articles say his reach was only 80 1/4 inches.