An old Carlos Ortiz loses to Ken Buchanan

[TheGreatA]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Not sure if this would have been the outcome had these two met in their primes.

[Sweet Pea]

I'm pretty positive it wouldn't have been. That was a shell of the former Ortiz. Would've been an excellent technical affair had the two met prime for prime, though.

[MrMarvel]

I'm sure this would not be the outcome had they met prime for prime.

Ortiz can't pull the trigger here and his reflexes are such that he can't deflect the punches.

Ortiz forgot more than Buchanan would ever learn.

[Xplosive]

I'm sure this would not be the outcome had they met prime for prime.

Ortiz can't pull the trigger here and his reflexes are such that he can't deflect the punches.

Ortiz forgot more than Buchanan would ever learn.

Agreed. Buchanan was an excellent fighter, but prime for prime I definitely think Ortiz woulda won.

[Dempsey1238]

I just got this fight a week ago, it was sadly not the same Ortiz that beat Joe Brown.

[My2Sense]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


One of the saddest displays ever.

Ortiz was well beyond shot by this time. He was basically shot several years earlier and had retired, but sadly came back and worked his way back to this tragedy.

[TheGreatA]

If you're ever asked what a shot fighter is supposed to look like, show them this fight. Balding old Carlos Ortiz still had the moves but he lacked the ability to execute them as he could in his prime.

I'm sure Ortiz was thinking that he could see the openings but couldn't pull the trigger.

[My2Sense]

If you're ever asked what a shot fighter is supposed to look like, show them this fight. Balding old Carlos Ortiz still had the moves but he lacked the ability to execute them as he could in his prime.

I'm sure Ortiz was thinking that he could see the openings but couldn't pull the trigger.

Yeah, he looked like John C. Reilly in this fight. :-(

Even worse than his reflexes (or lack thereof) was that he looked like he had no strength at all in his body or punches. When he lost his title to Cruz (a lackluster performance itself), he said he could no longer make the 135-pound limit (which had always been an effort for him), and he moved up to 147; but he looked like shit against some journeyman (I can't remember his name) and then quit. I would imagine coming back down to around 135 left him pretty weak by this time.

[TheGreatA]

Yeah, he looked like John C. Reilly in this fight. :-(

Even worse than his reflexes (or lack thereof) was that he looked like he had no strength at all in his body or punches. When he lost his title to Cruz (a lackluster performance itself), he said he could no longer make the 135-pound limit (which had always been an effort for him), and he moved up to 147; but he looked like shit against some journeyman (I can't remember his name) and then quit. I would imagine coming back down to around 135 left him pretty weak by this time.

He did look weak physically which had been quite the opposite in his prime.

Did he ever offer any official explanation for literally retiring on his stool? I imagine it was because he knew what everyone else knew at that point.

I don't even want to think about what a young Duran would have done to Ortiz at this point. I believe that was the original match-up until Duran injured himself and Buchanan replaced him.

[cotto20]

I'm sure this would not be the outcome had they met prime for prime.

Ortiz can't pull the trigger here and his reflexes are such that he can't deflect the punches.

Ortiz forgot more than Buchanan would ever learn.
thats going a bit far ortiz forgeting more than ken would learn! ken was a great fighter him self

[Duodenum]

Did he ever offer any official explanation for literally retiring on his stool?He apparently said that he was in the best physical condition he possibly could have been in, but that his hand-eye coordination and reflexes had deserted him. Frustration was his primary emotion and motivation for packing it in. He saw no point in going the distance in a situation where the outcome was certain.

[PowerPuncher]

I really think Buchanon can beat a prime Ortiz with his movement, great boxing skill, defense faster hands. No easy fight. Ken gets seriously underrated though and what a shame it is he never got a Duran rematch or maybe a DeJesus fight

[Flea Man]

Niow, regardless of how past prime Ortiz is there, I'd say in a series of 3 Ken's own adabtibility, punch variety and all-round skill in defence/offence would see him in a decision.

That was NOT Ortiz, but Prime for Prime they match up well, they both have attributes (mainly the mixing up of fighting, mid-range and 'pure' boxing) to cause each other serious headaches.

IMO :good

[Flea Man]

I really think Buchanon can beat a prime Ortiz with his movement, great boxing skill, defense faster hands. No easy fight. Ken gets seriously underrated though and what a shame it is he never got a Duran rematch or maybe a DeJesus fight

Buchanan is NOT Overrated on here.

Fact is, you started a thread saying Guzman-Funeka WASN'T a robbery:lol::patsch

[PowerPuncher]

Buchanan is NOT Overrated on here.

Fact is, you started a thread saying Guzman-Funeka WASN'T a robbery:lol::patsch

I said UNDERRATED, learn how to read fleabrain

And yes I did, I had it 7-5 Funeka for the record and as mentioned on the thread I said Guzman got his ass kicked from rounds 8-11, but in terms of round by round it was very close with Guzman doing the better work early as Funeka was inneffective early doors, 6-6 is a possible score, watch and address the rounds I discussed or STFU you anorexic stalker

Now remind me what great boxing analysts most you muppets on here are, picking Cotto over Pacquaio

[Flea Man]

I said UNDERRATED, learn how to read fleabrain

And yes I did, I had it 7-5 Funeka for the record and as mentioned on the thread I said Guzman got his ass kicked from rounds 8-11, but in terms of round by round it was very close with Guzman doing the better work early as Funeka was inneffective early doors, 6-6 is a possible score, watch and address the rounds I discussed or STFU you anorexic stalker

Now remind me what great boxing analysts most you muppets on here are, picking Cotto over Pacquaio

In my defence, I meant to say underrated:good

There's a difference between PREDICTIONS and ANALYSING a fight. You'er a terrible poster, everyone on here knows it. You have knowledge, but allow bias to get in the way of most of your posts.

PLUS: Anorexic stalker :rofl WTF????

[GPater11093]

you gusy forget it was supposed to be Duran in their with Ortiz !!!!!

Also Prime for Prime i have Ken winning a close close decision

[teeto]

As high as i rate Buchanan, I have to say that Ortiz did very well against skilled boxer types in his prime, i'd favour him. But if a style can take one from Ortiz on a given night (say in a series) then Buchanan might be primed for the job, as i say, stylistically. Ortiz was very good at offsetting the outboxer types, like Old Bones. He did that by jabbing, potshotting and maneuvring his man to his advantage, it was very clever. But for my liking Buchanan had a bit more to offer than Brwon in terms of inside flurrying and you never know if it gives an extra dimension to his chances. As it is, if Ortiz is at his best then his strength and bodywork of his own means he's immense in that area. It would be a fantastic fight prime for prime.

[Tin_Ribs]

Ortiz looks like a Franciscan friar there. Sad fight to watch though, he was well past it.

Prime for prime my natural bias towards Buchanan makes me think that he could have pipped Ortiz in a trilogy (though I like Ortiz too much to feel a great deal of conviction).
Buchanan wasn't as fast or tricky as Laguna, but he was still smooth while being both more robust and a slightly better ring general.

How good would it have been though?

[AlFrancis]

This fight is definitely one for the connoisseur. Much as I love Ken I see Ortiz taking it on points in a fight that is hard to score. There would be plenty of debate about the decision afterwards.

[turpinr]

This fight is definitely one for the connoisseur. Much as I love Ken I see Ortiz taking it on points in a fight that is hard to score. There would be plenty of debate about the decision afterwards.
:nonoi disagree and think ken would get the decision.

[JohnThomas1]

Until i look harder i just plain think Ortiz is the better man peak for peak.

[Bummy Davis]

Ortiz would always be hard to look good against but Buchanan would also always be a tough opponent for Ortiz. I was always a big fan of Buchanans. I remember thinking he was one of the best fighters I had seen in the 70's. I asked Nat Fliecher what he thought of his and he said he is a very good fighter but did not classify him as great. Buchanan was up there and even in his losing effort vs the Great Roberto Duran at Lightweight, Buchanan showed he could hang with the best

[JohnThomas1]

Buchanan was up there and even in his losing effort vs the Great Roberto Duran at Lightweight, Buchanan showed he could hang with the best

Tho Buchanan hung tough in all seriousness how many rounds did you give him? He was MILES behind. Not even in it really. He hung with a juvenile Duran but was, in reality, getting flogged.

I tip my hat, but the man was getting whupped.

[Tin_Ribs]

Tho Buchanan hung tough in all seriousness how many rounds did you give him? He was MILES behind. Not even in it really. He hung with a juvenile Duran but was, in reality, getting flogged.

I tip my hat, but the man was getting whupped.

Nah, he wasn't. He was losing without a doubt, but was in the fight. I've not seen it for a long time or ever actually scored it, but going into the 13th Buchanan had taken about 4 rounds IMO before Duran gave him that vasectomy. I need to watch it again though to be fair.
He was hitting Duran cleanly but didn't really have the power to trouble him or keep him off.

It might sound daft, but I've always thought that Kenny would have acquitted himself better in a rematch for two reasons. Firstly, it was partly because Duran was so raw, rough and furious that Buchanan struggled as he did with him. Duran would later become more polished and patient, but it's this that would have given Buchanan more time to think on his feet - it was the raw, unpolished fury that unsettled him rather than the completeness that would come later. Secondly, I don't think Buchanan would have been so slow to start 2nd time around upon knowing what to expect. I think he thought that Duran was going to get tired after starting so ferociously, and therefore paced himself accordingly. Obviously he misjudged the situation and gave early rounds away that he wasn't able to fully claw back. It might not have been the case a second time if Duran's management had been honourable enough to give Buchanan another crack at the whip, which they weren't.

However, when all is said and done, Buchanan would have most likely had his work cut out against any version of Duran. Just a bad style for him.

Ortiz undoubtedly had the greater career and beat the better fighters. But the very best that Kenny brought to the table would have been enough to push Ortiz to brink IMO.