Has Jermain Taylor Been Tested as Pavlik Was Tested Against Miranda?

[acb]

I understand that Taylor has fought the superior competition in his two fights with Bernard and his fight with Winky.

But Im looking back on his career and wondering if he has ever had to display the guts that Pavlik had to display against Miranda, and cant think of an occasion.

I think that Pavliks last fight being such a gut check actualy gives him a substantial advantage over Taylor. I think that if things get ugly with Taylor he will fall back on the experience and find a way to beat Taylor, who has squeaked out some close decisions as of late.

Pavlik in an upset. :yep

[41fever]

I think Pavlik has a very good chance, but i expect Jermain to really bring it

[DanePugilist]

Taylor was somewhat gutsy to take the first Hopkins fight. Then again, he had really nothing to lose.

Since then he has not done something gutsy really - maybe Hopkins II, considering how the first panned out, but I think he just thought about the money, really.

Miranda was hyped up to something he wasn't, but that wasn't Pavliks fault - he took a gutsy chance, in a fight with little reward vs risk - something that Taylor havent done in a loooooooong time.

[brooklyn1550]

Like you said, he's been tested against the better competition.

Winky Wright really put presure on him in their fight, cut off the ring at times and pounded away, but Taylor took it and fought his way to a draw. Granted Winky doesn't punch as hard as Miranda, nearly as hard for that matter, but he did bring the fight to Jermain during many parts of the fight.

Taylor has never been tested like Pavlik as far as facing a huge puncher. But the heat Miranda put on Pavlik wasn't as much as what Winky put on Jermain at times. Pavlik was imposing his own physical strength, backing Edison up and ultimately setting him up for the 7th round stoppage. Miranda never really put extreme heat on Pavlik like he did to many other of his opponents, but he did land some big right hands flush on Kelly's chin, so in that regard, I would say Pavlik's chin has been tested against the bigger power punchers.

So I think Taylor has been tested against the better competition, while Pavlik has been tested against a more powerful puncher (as I don't think Jermain has fought a real power-punching middleweight yet).

I expect Taylor to give it his all on Saturday night, however, I am sticking with Pavlik to take the title from the champ, and do so convincingly.

[Kostya Zoo]

Like you said, he's been tested against the better competition.

Winky Wright really put presure on him in their fight, cut off the ring at times and pounded away, but Taylor took it and fought his way to a draw. Granted Winky doesn't punch as hard as Miranda, nearly as hard for that matter, but he did bring the fight to Jermain during many parts of the fight.

Taylor has never been tested like Pavlik as far as facing a huge puncher. But the heat Miranda put on Pavlik wasn't as much as what Winky put on Jermain at times. Pavlik was imposing his own physical strength, backing Edison up and ultimately setting him up for the 7th round stoppage. Miranda never really put extreme heat on Pavlik like he did to many other of his opponents, but he did land some big right hands flush on Kelly's chin, so in that regard, I would say Pavlik's chin has been tested against the bigger power punchers.

So I think Taylor has been tested against the better competition, while Pavlik has been tested against a more powerful puncher (as I don't think Jermain has fought a real power-punching middleweight yet).

I expect Taylor to give it his all on Saturday night, however, I am sticking with Pavlik to take the title from the champ, and do so convincingly.

that's a good post, I agree :good

[Jose FM]

Like you said, he's been tested against the better competition.

Winky Wright really put presure on him in their fight, cut off the ring at times and pounded away, but Taylor took it and fought his way to a draw. Granted Winky doesn't punch as hard as Miranda, nearly as hard for that matter, but he did bring the fight to Jermain during many parts of the fight.

Taylor has never been tested like Pavlik as far as facing a huge puncher. But the heat Miranda put on Pavlik wasn't as much as what Winky put on Jermain at times. Pavlik was imposing his own physical strength, backing Edison up and ultimately setting him up for the 7th round stoppage. Miranda never really put extreme heat on Pavlik like he did to many other of his opponents, but he did land some big right hands flush on Kelly's chin, so in that regard, I would say Pavlik's chin has been tested against the bigger power punchers.

So I think Taylor has been tested against the better competition, while Pavlik has been tested against a more powerful puncher (as I don't think Jermain has fought a real power-punching middleweight yet).

I expect Taylor to give it his all on Saturday night, however, I am sticking with Pavlik to take the title from the champ, and do so convincingly. The difference between the Pavlik/Miranda & Taylor/Wright fights are that:
1. Pavliks plan was to back up Miranda, nobody thought he would and he did. Whereas Taylor was expected to fight toe to toe with Winky cause he was the bigger man, and keep his hands up cause Winky was a southpaw. So Pavlik executed his plan, Taylor didnt.
2. When you see the two fights you notice that when Miranda fights back and tries to back up Pavlik, Pavlik starts boxing and eventually puts his punches together to lead to a knock out. When Winky put the pressure on Taylor, Taylor backed up into the ropes. So again, Pavlik knew what to do in that situation.
3. While its true that Winky put more pressure on Taylor on Miranda on Pavlik, it was Taylors job to not allow that to happen. So how is Taylor supposed to fight Pavlik toe to toe, he cant be serious cause i just dont see that happening!
Pavlik 9th round KO.

[o_money]

The difference between the Pavlik/Miranda & Taylor/Wright fights are that:
1. Pavliks plan was to back up Miranda, nobody thought he would and he did. Whereas Taylor was expected to fight toe to toe with Winky cause he was the bigger man, and keep his hands up cause Winky was a southpaw. So Pavlik executed his plan, Taylor didnt.
2. When you see the two fights you notice that when Miranda fights back and tries to back up Pavlik, Pavlik starts boxing and eventually puts his punches together to lead to a knock out. When Winky put the pressure on Taylor, Taylor backed up into the ropes. So again, Pavlik knew what to do in that situation.
3. While its true that Winky put more pressure on Taylor on Miranda on Pavlik, it was Taylors job to not allow that to happen. So how is Taylor supposed to fight Pavlik toe to toe, he cant be serious cause i just dont see that happening!
Pavlik 9th round KO.

good post jose.

People talk about Taylors experience in big fights. What does that experience tell us? that taylor isn't able to do what he is supposed to? Maybe. and if so how much of an advantage is his big fight experience?

[tays001]

i tell you this right no taylor won' ko pavlik. miranda landed some flush shot and pavlik took with a smile. if jermian beat pavlik it's on cut or sd. on the other hand the ? is can taylor take though flush shots from a big power hittimng MW?. we'll se on saturday im going for pavlik but not counting taylor out both men want to prove a point wichmeans we'll get a great fight

[bigeddie27]

taylor did fight hopkins and winky, so yes he was tested.

[cuchulain]

good post jose.

People talk about Taylors experience in big fights. What does that experience tell us? that taylor isn't able to do what he is supposed to? Maybe. and if so how much of an advantage is his big fight experience?

He's supposed to win.

And he HAS !

[teetop]

This is a very good thread, and no he hasn't. Taylor has been tested in
terms of boxing smarts and style adjustment, and he has fared well. However, he has NEVER faced a big, physical, and brutal punching
guy who can take his best shots and will keep coming after him all night. Taylor will have to fight pavlik, and nobody knows if he can man up and with this monster.

I still like pavlik by KO in this fight.

[rodney]

Miranda was nothing but a good work out for PavliK.

[brooklyn1550]

The difference between the Pavlik/Miranda & Taylor/Wright fights are that:
1. Pavliks plan was to back up Miranda, nobody thought he would and he did. Whereas Taylor was expected to fight toe to toe with Winky cause he was the bigger man, and keep his hands up cause Winky was a southpaw. So Pavlik executed his plan, Taylor didnt.
2. When you see the two fights you notice that when Miranda fights back and tries to back up Pavlik, Pavlik starts boxing and eventually puts his punches together to lead to a knock out. When Winky put the pressure on Taylor, Taylor backed up into the ropes. So again, Pavlik knew what to do in that situation.
3. While its true that Winky put more pressure on Taylor on Miranda on Pavlik, it was Taylors job to not allow that to happen. So how is Taylor supposed to fight Pavlik toe to toe, he cant be serious cause i just dont see that happening!
Pavlik 9th round KO.

Good points:good

[tays001]

This is a very good thread, and no he hasn't. Taylor has been tested in
terms of boxing smarts and style adjustment, and he has fared well. However, he has NEVER faced a big, physical, and brutal punching
guy who can take his best shots and will keep coming after him all night. Taylor will have to fight pavlik, and nobody knows if he can man up and with this monster.

I still like pavlik by KO in this fight.

man right on with the post:good . i too got pavlik by ko around 9 or 10 but im not counting JT out pavlik aint got the best skin and sometimes speed kills

[Motor City Sam]

Taylor fought Hopkins and Winky, two guys holding spots on the pound for pound list. I love Miranda, but even his fans know he is limited as a boxer, depending on his power to carry him through. In my opinion, Taylor has been tested more.

Of course, Miranda was more tested than Pavlik when they fought, so it might not matter once they step in the ring.

[o_money]

They should change his name to kelly "THE BEAST" pavlik cause he's a fucking beast!
















man we are all going to look like fools when taylor proves this guy to be a hype job.

[cardstars]

The difference between the Pavlik/Miranda & Taylor/Wright fights are that:
1. Pavliks plan was to back up Miranda, nobody thought he would and he did. Whereas Taylor was expected to fight toe to toe with Winky cause he was the bigger man, and keep his hands up cause Winky was a southpaw. So Pavlik executed his plan, Taylor didnt.
2. When you see the two fights you notice that when Miranda fights back and tries to back up Pavlik, Pavlik starts boxing and eventually puts his punches together to lead to a knock out. When Winky put the pressure on Taylor, Taylor backed up into the ropes. So again, Pavlik knew what to do in that situation.
3. While its true that Winky put more pressure on Taylor on Miranda on Pavlik, it was Taylors job to not allow that to happen. So how is Taylor supposed to fight Pavlik toe to toe, he cant be serious cause i just dont see that happening!
Pavlik 9th round KO.

Perfectly stated my man. I'm going Pavlik 10th round ko

[cdsimple]

3. While its true that Winky put more pressure on Taylor on Miranda on Pavlik, it was Taylors job to not allow that to happen. So how is Taylor supposed to fight Pavlik toe to toe, he cant be serious cause i just dont see that happening!
Pavlik 9th round KO.


Being a fighter myself, I can tell you Taylors thinking in the fight with wright. JT was thinking the only way to catch winky out of his guard was to catch him as he was on the offensive. He would immediately attempt to counter wrights shots with his own (sometimes he was successful, sometimes not). JT knew winky didnt have the power to hurt him, so he would just let wright tee off and then attempt to shoot more powerful shots that would look better to the judges. He even went as far as admitting this in the local paper.

I understand his strategy, I dont think it was the correct approach for him to beat winky, but I understand what he was attempting to do.

The key is that JT knew winky couldnt and wouldnt hurt him with his shots so there was no fear in putting that strategy in motion. With Pavlik, you better believe that JT knows he can and will be hurt if he becomes a sitting duck on the ropes waiting to counter. The difference is that Pavlik wont be nearly as hard to hit as winky, therefore JT wont have to attempt these tactics to connect. Thats why so many feel that Pavlik is tailor made for Taylor. Different fighter, different approach.

[Marnoff]

Wait a second, you think Pavlik has been tested more than Taylor...? Not a chance in hell. This isn't even debatable, really.

[Jose FM]

Being a fighter myself, I can tell you Taylors thinking in the fight with wright. JT was thinking the only way to catch winky out of his guard was to catch him as he was on the offensive. He would immediately attempt to counter wrights shots with his own (sometimes he was successful, sometimes not). JT knew winky didnt have the power to hurt him, so he would just let wright tee off and then attempt to shoot more powerful shots that would look better to the judges. He even went as far as admitting this in the local paper.

I understand his strategy, I dont think it was the correct approach for him to beat winky, but I understand what he was attempting to do.

The key is that JT knew winky couldnt and wouldnt hurt him with his shots so there was no fear in putting that strategy in motion. With Pavlik, you better believe that JT knows he can and will be hurt if he becomes a sitting duck on the ropes waiting to counter. The difference is that Pavlik wont be nearly as hard to hit as winky, therefore JT wont have to attempt these tactics to connect. Thats why so many feel that Pavlik is tailor made for Taylor. Different fighter, different approach.

Ok, i see where you are coming from, but no offense, Jermain Taylor is the undisputed middleweight champion of the world and had Manny Stewart is his corner. So, he should be at a level that is beyond you or me or anyone else of his critics. If you look at that fight, Taylors best round and probably Winkys worst round ever was the 4th round when Jermain fought Winky in the middle of the ring and was using his power, throwinng vicious body and head shots, that was the clearest round for Taylor and he should of followed that game plan alll night, instead he kept dropping his hands, which were vulnable to Winkys jab (since winky is a southpaw), thats why Taylors eye was closed at the end of the fight, cause he didnt stick to the game plan, which one would need to beat an elite fighter like Winky.

Jermains gotta realize that hes made it is far on the fact that he has a gifted body and great hand speed for a middleweight, but in order to be elite and compete with other elite fighters you must be very disciplined and demostrate adaptability, instead Winky (being the smart fighter that he is) kept backing Jermain into the ropes and getting the best of him. And in IMO Winky won the fight.

If Taylor is an elite fighter then he must fight his fight, if he really is gonna fight toe to toe with Pavlik then hes not elite cause Pavlik will knock him out. My guess is that Taylor will fight Pavliks fight and will get knocked out.

[cdsimple]

Ok, i see where you are coming from, but no offense, Jermain Taylor is the undisputed middleweight champion of the world and had Manny Stewart is his corner. So, he should be at a level that is beyond you or me or anyone else of his critics. If you look at that fight, Taylors best round and probably Winkys worst round ever was the 4th round when Jermain fought Winky in the middle of the ring and was using his power, throwinng vicious body and head shots, that was the clearest round for Taylor and he should of followed that game plan alll night, instead he kept dropping his hands, which were vulnable to Winkys jab (since winky is a southpaw), thats why Taylors eye was closed at the end of the fight, cause he didnt stick to the game plan, which one would need to beat an elite fighter like Winky.

Jermains gotta realize that hes made it is far on the fact that he has a gifted body and great hand speed for a middleweight, but in order to be elite and compete with other elite fighters you must be very disciplined and demostrate adaptability, instead Winky (being the smart fighter that he is) kept backing Jermain into the ropes and getting the best of him. And in IMO Winky won the fight.

If Taylor is an elite fighter then he must fight his fight, if he really is gonna fight toe to toe with Pavlik then hes not elite cause Pavlik will knock him out. My guess is that Taylor will fight Pavliks fight and will get knocked out.

Totally agree with you about JT needing to stick to the game plan. If you check my last post, I mentioned that his personal strategy (not Manny's, cuz he didnt listen to Manny very often) wasnt the most effective to fight winky.

You are correct in you assessment of JT's athleticism, etc... but I disagree with you saying that he has made it on these physical attributes alone. Jermain has tremendous heart and determination. IMO, thats his best asset as a fighter. Dont believe me, check out Taylor/Hopkins I rounds 10 and 11.

With Pavlik, things will be clearer for JT how to win the fight, and it wont be sitting on the ropes. Pavlik is a very good, but basic fighter, there is nothing complicated at all about his style.

[SAS2]

taylor beat hopkins twice and themn winky. Taylor may not be an all timer, but he is going to hand pavlik his ass in a garbage bag. sorry pavlik nuthuggers.

[1lehudson]

what good is a 500 pound bomb if it lands 3,000 miles away from anything??? Miranda sucks, and would lose badly to four or five guys on Taylors resume. Pavlik is a good fighter, and he has a good shot at winning the fight come sat night, but for anyone to try and suggest that Pavlik has somehow faced something that Taylor hasnt or has proven something more is total bullshit. But hey if that is what some of you guys need to do to make yourself feel better about Kelly's shot at winning this fight then so be it.

[psychopath]

Wait a second, you think Pavlik has been tested more than Taylor...? Not a chance in hell. This isn't even debatable, really.

The thread means "in a slugfest" dude. :D AT least that's how I understand it.

[Dorfmeister]

Taylor was tested by top level 160-pounders and 154-pounders too and Pavlik was tested for sheer will and capacity of sacrifice, he went bold into the lion's den ( or the Pantera's den) and came out victorious, it's different... Hopkins got Taylor's head gashed and blood bursting out torrentialy through, had Jermain wobbling on the last coupla rounds and Taylor held on to the final bell and to his precious lead... Winky also had Taylor's eye swollen shut by the ninth ( after a first clash of heads between the southpaw and the orthodox fighter like also happened in Wright vs Hopkins to Winky's disadvantage) but it was Winky who avoided the fight in the 12th against Jermain... Taylor has been tested also yes.

[brownshell]

Taylor was tested just by fighting the competiton he's already faced. Miranda is not in the same league as Hopkins or Wright. Taylor has never been rocked and had to show what kind of heart he has in that area, but maybe at this stage he's good enough to stay away from being rocked. Pavlik was tested because he fights a style that puts him in harms way. He's also not a good defensive fighter. Pavlik is not the fighter that's going to test Taylor. Taylor going to test Pavlik, if taylor takes this challenge seriously.

[Snorkel]

Taylor's undoubtedly faced the better boxers and at the absolute worst has been competitive with them. Pavlik beat a weight drained Miranda. I'm not taking anything away from the guy, but Miranda himself was relatively unproven. Taylor meanwhile has fought two elite MW and one top LMW. No comparison here.

As far as punchers faced, Miranda was a big hitter but he barely landed anything of note in the entire fight. Taylor meanwhile has fought a great counterpuncher in Hopkins who, while not possessing brutal power, was still strong enough and good enough to destroy Tarver, dropping him in the process.

I'm still taking Taylor by decision.

[swedeone]

taylor beat hopkins twice and themn winky. Taylor may not be an all timer, but he is going to hand pavlik his ass in a garbage bag. sorry pavlik nuthuggers.



Let's seemyou show your face here Sunday morning. Something tells me you will be NO WHERE TO BE FOUND.

Pavlik will dominate, hurt and then STOP Taylor. :hi:

[Sug3]

Let's seemyou show your face here Sunday morning. Something tells me you will be NO WHERE TO BE FOUND.

Pavlik will dominate, hurt and then STOP Taylor. :hi:BY U SAYING PAVLIK WILL DOMINATE IS LIKE SAYING PAVLIK IS BETTER THAN WINKY AND B-HOP,TALOR WILL LAND AT WILL AGAINST PAVLIK AND PAVLIK WILL BE GASSED BY THE 7TH ROUND FROM TAKING ALOT OF PUNISHMENT ALONG WITH GETTING OUTCLASSED FROM TRYING TO LAND A BIG PUNCH.

MY ADVICE TO US WHO ARE ROOTING FOR TAYLOR,JUST WAIT TILL AFTER THE FIGHT IS OVER AND THEN COME IN HERE AND PICK ON THESE DUMB ASSES WHO THINK THIS GREAT WHITE HYPE WILL WIN,BUT IN THE MEANTIME DONT BOTHER POSTING OR STARTING A THREAD,LET THEM FEEL THE ANXIETY,BECAUSE A TRUE BOXING FAN KNOWS PAVLIK IS GONNA GET OUTCLASSED.

I'M DONE POSTING ABOUT THIS FIGHT.

[nervousxtian]

I love how we make excuses for Miranda, that he was weight drained... haha.. truth is he lost to Abraham, was almost KO'd by Eastman, was down against Green, and KO'd by Pavlik.

Maybe it's that Miranda was a hype job who was never as good as everyone wanted him to be.

[Biggame]

I love how we make excuses for Miranda, that he was weight drained... haha.. truth is he lost to Abraham, was almost KO'd by Eastman, was down against Green, and KO'd by Pavlik.

Maybe it's that Miranda was a hype job who was never as good as everyone wanted him to be.

Exactly!!

As much as I like Miranda, and his Story, the guy is basic, and 1demensional! Anyone w/a little accuracy and a good punch beats him. Tyalor would've knocked him out too and that's w/out getting hit as much! Pavlik is a good fighter, but Taylor is going to show him how top fighters fight. He's going to see in Taylor a fighter who counters well, has speed and movement, and punches accurately. I think ppl are taking to much out of the Miranda fight, and actually putting Taylor on Miranda's level! Big Mistake, and I can't wait til sunday morning when all these bandwagoners are in awe cause there boy Pavlik got Ko'd/Tko'd!

"Has Jermain Taylor Benn Tested as Pavlik Was Tested Against Miranda?" Now that's a stupid question!! As a matter of fact Miranda was Tailor made for Pavlik. It wasn't much of a test at all, and it wasn't because Pavlik is that good!!:nono

[El Bombasto]

I understand that Taylor has fought the superior competition in his two fights with Bernard and his fight with Winky.

But Im looking back on his career and wondering if he has ever had to display the guts that Pavlik had to display against Miranda, and cant think of an occasion.

I think that Pavliks last fight being such a gut check actualy gives him a substantial advantage over Taylor. I think that if things get ugly with Taylor he will fall back on the experience and find a way to beat Taylor, who has squeaked out some close decisions as of late.

Pavlik in an upset. :yep

pavlik dominated miranda, the fight wasn't even competitive. how is that a gut check?

[Biggame]

pavlik dominated miranda, the fight wasn't even competitive. how is that a gut check?

Exactly!!:good

[Zakman]

Taylor didn't have to be tested. Why worry - the HBO suits make sure the judges have their scorecards filled out before the fight even starts.

Too bad you can't get a gift decision when you're OUT COLD on the canvas, huh?? :lol:

Pavlik is gonna destroy this fraud - and earlier than people think, too! Can't wait! :happy

[PH|LLA]

Pavlik in an upset. :yep
the bookies have it almost 50/50

[Fab2333]

The difference between the Pavlik/Miranda & Taylor/Wright fights are that:
1. Pavliks plan was to back up Miranda, nobody thought he would and he did. Whereas Taylor was expected to fight toe to toe with Winky cause he was the bigger man, and keep his hands up cause Winky was a southpaw. So Pavlik executed his plan, Taylor didnt.
2. When you see the two fights you notice that when Miranda fights back and tries to back up Pavlik, Pavlik starts boxing and eventually puts his punches together to lead to a knock out. When Winky put the pressure on Taylor, Taylor backed up into the ropes. So again, Pavlik knew what to do in that situation.
3. While its true that Winky put more pressure on Taylor on Miranda on Pavlik, it was Taylors job to not allow that to happen. So how is Taylor supposed to fight Pavlik toe to toe, he cant be serious cause i just dont see that happening!
Pavlik 9th round KO.

terrible post. nah lol j/k post makes sense. and as valid points. But I dont agree with the outcome. if you changed it to Taylor KO 9 then we would b in agreement

[Vincent Gottschalk]

Pavlik has beat much tougher guys then Taylor has:nono Who has Taylor beat Hopkins the most over rated fighter in history:-( Powder puff puncher Winky Wright and little men Ouma and Spinks:verysad and he looked so so at best doing it:yep On the other hand the Ghost beat very tough and dangerous fighters in Zuniga, Zertuche and Miranda all guys in there primes, in tough all out action bouts:bbb

[TH XCon]

ACB cmon man..your saying BESIDES bhop and winky he hasnt fought anyone..and Pavs has only fought miranda who is overrated i may add..cmon lets look at this fight with an even head..the better boxer usually wins..and thats taylor the only chance pavs has is by KO.and taylor is to smart to exchange blows with this guy..so im looking at Taylor by decision or late KO/TKO due to the frustration from pavlik trying to get inside and leaving himself open.

[teetop]

what good is a 500 pound bomb if it lands 3,000 miles away from anything??? Miranda sucks, and would lose badly to four or five guys on Taylors resume. Pavlik is a good fighter, and he has a good shot at winning the fight come sat night, but for anyone to try and suggest that Pavlik has somehow faced something that Taylor hasnt or has proven something more is total bullshit. But hey if that is what some of you guys need to do to make yourself feel better about Kelly's shot at winning this fight then so be it.

Name those 4 or 5 fighters on taylors resume that would beat miranda.

Name any ONE besides hopkins and wright.

[TH XCon]

Teetop answer me this..if pavlik fought who taylor has fought do you think he would be undefeated still??

[Zakman]

Teetop answer me this..if pavlik fought who taylor has fought do you think he would be undefeated still??

Maybe if he had the HBO suits pulling strings for him like Taylor did! :yep

[TH XCon]

thats rediculous..theres no way he still would be undefeated

[Boinko]

Maybe if he had the HBO suits pulling strings for him like Taylor did! :yep

Zakman, I'm starting to think you're not actually a real person, but a spam generator that automatically posts the same thing over and over in any thread that has Taylors name in the title.

Still waiting on the evidence that proves this HBO conspiracy you keep mentioning...

[Pimp C]

Taylor is more tested than Pavlik IMO. Power is so overrated on ESB that's it's not even funny. People always tend to underrate things like defense, footwork and ring generalship all far more important than just power. Taylor was tested in the later rounds by an ATG in Hopkins in their first fight that but Pavlik facing an overrated crude slugger in Miranda is a harder test?:patsch When will people learn that power isn't the end all be all in boxing.:-(

[achillesthegreat]

No, but Pavlik hasn't faced anyone with Tayors boxing skills let alone Wrights, Spinks or Hopkins.

[Zakman]

Zakman, I'm starting to think you're not actually a real person, but a spam generator that automatically posts the same thing over and over in any thread that has Taylors name in the title.

Still waiting on the evidence that proves this HBO conspiracy you keep mentioning...

The evidence is right there in Taylor's record - he didn't get one, he didn't get two, he got THREE highly disputed decisions in a row. Once you can attribute to chance, maybe even twice you could attempt to explain away with other theories. Three in a row for the latest HBO flagship, and against established ATG fighters?? Don't be naive! :patsch

And, no I'm no spam generator - just a boxing fan who is OUTRAGED at the corruption underlying Taylor's unjustified seizure of the middleweight title. Fortunately, Kelly Pavlik will bring justice with his fists Saturday night. He's not just fighting for the title, he's fighting for the integrity of boxing itself!:yep

[Executioner]

Taylor is more tested than Pavlik IMO. Power is so overrated on ESB that's it's not even funny. People always tend to underrate things like defense, footwork and ring generalship all far more important than just power. Taylor was tested in the later rounds by an ATG in Hopkins in their first fight that but Pavlik facing an overrated limited crude slugger in Miranda is a harder test?:patsch When will people learn that power isn't the end all be all in boxing.:-(

Pav is more tested against harder punchers, not better fighters.

[Boinko]

Taylor is more tested than Pavlik IMO. Power is so overrated on ESB that's it's not even funny. People always tend to underrate things like defense, footwork and ring generalship all far more important than just power. Taylor was tested in the later rounds by an ATG in Hopkins in their first fight that IMO is a much harder test than facing an overrated limited crude slugger in Miranda. When will people learn that power isn't the end all be all in boxing.

They often learn the lesson after the fight is over. I'm quite expecting the fight with Pavlik to go the distance.
Right now, Kelly's performance against Miranda is in everyone's mind, and it's given Pavlik this status as a massive puncher who can't be stopped. Well, there is no way in hell that Jermain is going to employ a strategy like Miranda did. Miranda was incredibly sloppy and one dimensional. It doesn't mean Pavlik wasn't impressive, because he was, but I'm not using that fight as a guage of what'll happen on Saturday.

[Boinko]

The evidence is right there in Taylor's record - he didn't get one, he didn't get two, he got THREE highly disputed decisions in a row. Once you can attribute to chance, maybe even twice you could attempt to explain away with other theories. Three in a row for the latest HBO flagship, and against established ATG fighters?? Don't be naive! :patsch

And, no I'm no spam generator - just a boxing fan who is OUTRAGED at the corruption underlying Taylor's unjustified seizure of the middleweight title. Fortunately, Kelly Pavlik will bring justice with his fists Saturday night. He's not just fighting for the title, he's fighting for the integrity of boxing itself!:yep

Again, that is not evidence, it's speculation.

As I've asked before, since you've mentioned both Hopkins fights as being gift decisions, please watch the first fight and tell we in what rounds Harold Lederman scored for Taylor that absolutely without certainty should have went to Hopkins. The fight is on Youtube. I'm not saying the Lederman decision is the end all be all, but it was very reasonable in my opinion.
And if you can't pinpoint any particular rounds, then it's a clear indication that the fight was close enough that a Taylor decision was justified.

Do you think a Taylor decision in their first fight was fair, even though you may not have scored it that way yourself?

[Biggame]

They often learn the lesson after the fight is over. I'm quite expecting the fight with Pavlik to go the distance.
Right now, Kelly's performance against Miranda is in everyone's mind, and it's given Pavlik this status as a massive puncher who can't be stopped. Well, there is no way in hell that Jermain is going to employ a strategy like Miranda did. Miranda was incredibly sloppy and one dimensional. It doesn't mean Pavlik wasn't impressive, because he was, but I'm not using that fight as a guage of what'll happen on Saturday.

Not to mention that Miranda's there to be hit! His defense is his face!!

[bachatu]

I'm quite expecting the fight with Pavlik to go the distance.
Right now, Kelly's performance against Miranda is in everyone's mind, and it's given Pavlik this status as a massive puncher who can't be stopped. Well, there is no way in hell that Jermain is going to employ a strategy like Miranda did. Miranda was incredibly sloppy and one dimensional. It doesn't mean Pavlik wasn't impressive, because he was, but I'm not using that fight as a guage of what'll happen on Saturday.

Right on the money, couldn't agree with you more. I think everyone is just jumping on that wagon based on the fight with Miranda. People need to realize, Taylor ain't going to come out like a careless drunk brawler like Zertuche or Miranda.

[Ambition_Def]

While Taylor has the obvious edge in experience I find it funny and ironic that in all of his tests, he does not have experience with a big puncher like Pavlik.

This fight may prove to be a newer experience for Taylor than for Pavlik in that regard.

[TH XCon]

Your right Taylor hasnt fought anyone with his power but,Taylor will not throw blows with this guy..hes gonna move around and frustrate him untill pavil leaves himself open then taylor will attack

[Boinko]

Your right Taylor hasnt fought anyone with his power but,Taylor will not throw blows with this guy..hes gonna move around and frustrate him untill pavil leaves himself open then taylor will attack

With Manny Steward in his corner now, I also expect to see him tying Pavlik up a lot, especially early on in the fight.

[bachatu]

While Taylor has the obvious edge in experience I find it funny and ironic that in all of his tests, he does not have experience with a big puncher like Pavlik.
This fight may prove to be a newer experience for Taylor than for Pavlik in that regard.

That's why both men will be tested in their own way on Saturday. However, many still feel Taylor's tests overall as a boxer have been more difficult, and he has succeeded (maybe not as impressive as some would like); thus, giving him the title as the "undisputed middleweight champion of the world"

[Boinko]

That's why both men will be tested in their own way on Saturday. However, many still feel Taylor's tests as a boxer have been more difficult, and he has succeeded (maybe not as impressive as some would like); thus, giving him the title as the "undisputed middleweight champion of the world"

Which is why it's such an intriguing fight. The predictions seem to be split down the middle.
I'm getting more and more pumped for it.

[bachatu]

Yeah I havent been this pumped for a fight in a long time... we need more fights like this in boxing. What is best is that its not on PPV... the way it should be.

[BITCH ASS]

With Manny Steward in his corner now, I also expect to see him tying Pavlik up a lot, especially early on in the fight.

That won't work against Pavlik, he'll have to get too close.

You tie up short guys.

[Zakman]

Do you think a Taylor decision in their first fight was fair, even though you may not have scored it that way yourself?

No, I do not - and indeed it is the first Hopkins decision that gave rise to my outraged, which has only been compounded by the others. Hopkins was a long-time champ, and in a close fight should have - and WOULD have were it not for the influence of HBO and Hopkins' unpopularity with the boxing establishment - been given the benefit of the doubt on the scorecards. That he was not goes against all boxing tradition, and really caused me to question the legitimacy of this decision.

This was only compounded by the decision in the second fight, which, while seemingly closer, in my view should have gone to Hopkins. And then, the Wright fight, imo, simply sealed the deal - there is CLEARLY something rotten going on here.

I hate how this sport is corrupted by the influence of powerful TV networks and the big promoters like King. That's why I can't stand fighters like Ruiz or Taylor who attain statuses they wouldn't have otherwise achieved without the undue influence of corrupting forces. I will say this for Taylor, however - unlike Ruiz, at least he has SOME boxing ability. It won't be enough for him to beat a hard-hitting true middleweight like Pavlik, however.:-(

[Jinx]

it is true that Pavlik will be the first big puncher that Taylor has fought...and it's a test that i believe Taylor is prepared to pass, and look good doing it...Pavlik won't fight Taylor the same way he fought Miranda, he's seems to smart to make that mistake cuz Taylor would eat him with uppercuts on his way in, like he did to Joppy...Pavlik will box with Taylor aggressively, looking to land his right hand, but Taylor's speed will allow his jab to land first and control the pace...

even in a brawl Taylor's speed and athleticism gives him the advantage over Pavlik because Pavlik will be the more hittable fighter between the 2...i see Taylor stopping Pavlik because Pavlik will go above and beyond to get the victory, which will result in him taking big chances just to land his own power...people forget that Taylor has power also, but the difference here will be speed

[Boinko]

That won't work against Pavlik, he'll have to get too close.

You tie up short guys.

You could be right. We'll see.

[Boinko]

No, I do not - and indeed it is the first Hopkins decision that gave rise to my outraged, which has only been compounded by the others. Hopkins was a long-time champ, and in a close fight should have - and WOULD have were it not for the influence of HBO and Hopkins' unpopularity with the boxing establishment - been given the benefit of the doubt on the scorecards. That he was not goes against all boxing tradition, and really caused me to question the legitimacy of this decision.
Sorry, you've said this before and I don't buy it. Nowhere in the rule book does it require a judge to honour this tradition and give the benefit of the doubt to the champ.
And many fans, like myself, think this is a bad, bad idea and would only compound problems in scoring.

Basically, you're complaining about unfair scoring, yet you're coming out and advocating it as long as it benefits the champ.
That is utter nonsense.

If the final round of a championship fight was clearly won by the challenger yet the judge gave it to the champ simply because the fight was close, would you have a problem with this? Because, this so called tradition could be interpreted in many different ways.

Actually, I have a better idea, how about judges score bouts fairly without regard for who is the champ and who is the challenger.

As I see it, this whole thing about boxing tradition demanding that the champ get the nod in a close fight, is nothing more than a way for fans of the champ to whine and bitch when a decision doesn't go their way.

I'll ask again, which rounds in the first Hopkins fight which we're scored by Lederman for Taylor, should have without a doubt went to Bernard?

This was only compounded by the decision in the second fight, which, while seemingly closer, in my view should have gone to Hopkins. And then, the Wright fight, imo, simply sealed the deal - there is CLEARLY something rotten going on here.
But, by your logic because Taylor was now the champ, he rightfully deserved the decision since the fight was close.
Ah, but let me guess, you don't think Taylor should have been given that benefit since the first fight was controversial and he didn't have the history as champion that Bernard had.
So, yet again, the rule gets interpreted differently due to special circumstances. Hmmm, it's sure hard to define this rule in any meaningful way.

Let me ask, should state athletic commisions consult with you before each fight to determine how this tradition should be implented? (since it doesn't actually appear in the rulebook).

I hate how this sport is corrupted by the influence of powerful TV networks and the big promoters like King. That's why I can't stand fighters like Ruiz or Taylor who attain statuses they wouldn't have otherwise achieved without the undue influence of corrupting forces. I will say this for Taylor, however - unlike Ruiz, at least he has SOME boxing ability. It won't be enough for him to beat a hard-hitting true middleweight like Pavlik, however.:-(
I'm not saying it isn't possible that networks have influence over fights. But you've done nothing in the way of providing evidence to prove it. Repeating a claim over and over just based on a hunch doesn't make it so.
Sorry.

As for the fight itself, only time will tell

[Pimp C]

They often learn the lesson after the fight is over. I'm quite expecting the fight with Pavlik to go the distance.
Right now, Kelly's performance against Miranda is in everyone's mind, and it's given Pavlik this status as a massive puncher who can't be stopped. Well, there is no way in hell that Jermain is going to employ a strategy like Miranda did. Miranda was incredibly sloppy and one dimensional. It doesn't mean Pavlik wasn't impressive, because he was, but I'm not using that fight as a guage of what'll happen on Saturday.
Good post!:good

[lefthook31]

The more important question is has Pavlik been tested with a guy that is as multi dimensional as Taylor? Thats way more important than fighting a guy with good power, but is one dimensional. Pavlik shows he has a good chin, but he hasnt shown me he can be competitive with a guy that can do a few extra things like Taylor can. We will soon find that out.

[Pimp C]

While Taylor has the obvious edge in experience I find it funny and ironic that in all of his tests, he does not have experience with a big puncher like Pavlik.

This fight may prove to be a newer experience for Taylor than for Pavlik in that regard.
Pavlik does not have experience with someone as complete as Taylor? He's miles beyond anyone Pavlik's faced.

[Pimp C]

The more important question is has Pavlik been tested with a guy that is as multi dimensional as Taylor? Thats way more important than fighting a guy with good power, but is one dimensional. Pavlik shows he has a good chin, but he hasnt shown me he can be competitive with a guy that can do a few extra things like Taylor can. We will soon find that out.
Good post, you beat me to it.:good

[acb]

pavlik dominated miranda, the fight wasn't even competitive. how is that a gut check?

Pavlik dominated Miranda in the sense that he won most rounds and got he KO, but he took a walloping at times to do it.

You can dominate your man in boxing and also catch some serious shots along the way.

And Marnoff.. I did not clame Pavlik has fought better fighters, only that he has been in a serious scrap recently in which he had to take serious shots. Thats all.

[acb]

The more important question is has Pavlik been tested with a guy that is as multi dimensional as Taylor? Thats way more important than fighting a guy with good power, but is one dimensional. Pavlik shows he has a good chin, but he hasnt shown me he can be competitive with a guy that can do a few extra things like Taylor can. We will soon find that out.

I dont think of Taylor as a multi-dimensional fighter in any sense. I see him as an athletic, super talented, strong fighter with basicaly a 1-2 and a clinch at this point. I actualy thought he had more dimensions to his game when he was younger and coming up.

He does more in the sense of variety than Miranda, but come on we are not talking about PBF or SRR here.

[acb]

Hate to say it, but I told you so. :hi:

In Larry Merchants words, one man got off the canvas and one did not.:deal