"Duran-Cuevas" of 1983.... Classic or Farce? [Archive]

MRBILL

12-03-2009, 07:41 PM

Folks,

I am a HUGE fan of hispanic / spanish fighters who love to wage war in the ring.... And this was the case back in '83 when Roberto Duran was embarking on a comeback at age 31 against ex-welter champ Pipino Cuevas, who at a mere age of 24, was also thought to be on the comeback trail........

Duran was in decent shape in early 1983 at 152, while Cuevas looked fine at a lesser 149 pounds.... Oddly though, it was Duran who was physically stronger and more powerful than Cuevas..... Duran ate Cuevas up like a Taco Supreme with hot sauce....... Cuevas did land some bombs, but nothing rattled Duran for any length of time....... On the other hand, Duran had NO PROBLEM rocking and rolling Cuevas with every heavy punch thrown / landed...... WTF???

So, who saw this fight in Los Angeles and what was your thoughts after Duran KO'd Cuevas inside of "4" rds???

MR.BILL:good:bbb:huh:rasta

MRBILL

12-03-2009, 08:19 PM

I just reviewed my tape............ Cuevas looked like he was stiff as a board with no reflexes at all against a still spry Duran who was aging at 31 in 1983......... The 24 year old Cuevas hung on for a few more yrs after his loss to Duran, mainly winning some and losing some, but no more title fights were in reach for Cuevas.........

MR.BILL

My2Sense

12-03-2009, 08:35 PM

Cuevas looked like he was stiff as a board with no reflexes at all against a still spry Duran who was aging at 31 in 1983.........

That's basically it in a nutshell.

Cuevas' legs and chin were gone at that point, and he was coming straight off a year or so layoff I believe. As it is, the fight produced some fireworks in the brief time that it lasted, but I think a fight between them back in their primes would've been a classic.

TheGreatA

12-03-2009, 08:40 PM

The fight was pretty much over after Cuevas landed his best on Duran to no effect.

MRBILL

12-03-2009, 08:57 PM

MRBILL

12-04-2009, 12:36 AM

This is a classic fight to me; yet the fact it was really one-sided........... Duran is God......

MR.BILL

duranimal

12-04-2009, 01:05 AM

This is a classic fight to me; yet the fact it was really one-sided........... Duran is God......

MR.BILL

Yep, i remember it well, he took everything from pipino for the first 2 rounds but yer just had this feeling that roberto was always in control & then he just took over in the 3rd & battered cuavas all over the ring, truly incredible & i loved the post fight ring interview with duran, he knew he still had it + who else was in the commentary, was it Gerry Cooney?

I've always dreamt of that scenario where Duran fights Cuevas straight after he beat Leonard & that would have been the biggest $$$$ latin match-up in history, KO'd Cuevas for the undisputed WW crown then jumped up & beat Benitez or straight onto the new middle king Hagler, jeez it could have been so different & Leonard/Hearns just fighting over the scraps:lol:

IntentionalButt

12-04-2009, 01:12 AM

Duran probably could've beaten Cuevas in 1978 while weighing between 135 to 140 pounds to Cuevas' 147 pounds as champions at lightweight & welterweight........ Cuevas looked a fool against Duran........... It was brutally one-sided............ Duran being "7" yrs older is just amazing............ Peace....

MR.BILL:good:hey

How about summer of '80 when they were both at weltreweight...pre-Hearns Cuevas vs. an undefeated Duran coming off the win over Sugar (but before losing the rematch)? :think

IntentionalButt

12-04-2009, 01:15 AM

It's funny, even at the time the commentators were treating it as a "last gasp" for both, noting that often times two shot fighters make for good, desperate battles. That Duran hung around for another two decades...:yikes

Addie

12-04-2009, 01:15 AM

I haven't seen this fight in it's entirety, but the moment when Duran effortlessly moves his head out of the way of 4 Cuevas shots, shakes his head, and then lands a lead right hand...is supreme. Love it. I think that resulted in a knockdown, and Cuevas didn't know what hit him.

HyperBone

12-04-2009, 01:43 AM

its a showcase, not really a farce as some have been claiming. its a proof that duran is levels above for guys like pipino cuevas

Shake

12-04-2009, 02:00 AM

There is a moment where they stand real close, shoulder to shoulder, and Pipino lands two body shots, and you can see Duran wince and push him off. After that, you can see how Duran does his utmost best to not be hit flush again. He gets some distance between them and does his feinting/sneaky overhand right. :D

Cuevas definitely got his respect. I definitely give Duran much credit for the manner of victory, it should not have been so easy.

JohnThomas1

12-04-2009, 02:07 AM

Cuevas was never anything like the same fighter post Hearns, and unfortunately for him Duran came in 100% fired up and prepared as if he was to meet the feared Cuevas from years of yore.

So we had a top shelf Duran putting in a fantastic effort vs Cuevas. I do think Pipino fought pretty well all considering, if not as good as he once had.

I think Duran would have outclassed peak Cuevas. Too much polish and durability.

divac

12-04-2009, 03:25 AM

The skill level difference between them was enormous.....and the fact that Duran went on to be able to handle much bigger fighters than Cuevas well afterward (Barkley)......
.....in hindsight, its easy to comprehend how easily Duran handled Cuevas.

......and JohnThomas is right, Duran was respectful of Cuevas' power early on.....so you know he took Cuevas seriously.

You better believe Duran was fired up......the fight was fought in the LA Sports Arena, all sold out with passionate hispanic fight fans.
......I was 15 years old at the time and lived just 10 minutes away from the Sports Arena and wishing I could go......had to settle to listening to the radio broadcast of it.
.....and of course, I saw it a few weeks later on a spanish network.

Manos de Piedra

12-04-2009, 04:29 AM

Where the fighters in there prime, No. Was it a farce, hell no, it was a 4 round very tough fight. There was very little farce involved in that fight

Manos de Piedra

12-04-2009, 04:33 AM

Mayweather vs Baldomir was a farce. Duran vs Ceuvas, still gets replayed by networks like espn and VS today. Shit now im about to go watch the fight.

laxpdx

12-04-2009, 05:31 AM

By the time this long awaited match took place, Cuevas was merely a shell. Prime for prime, Duran would've taken it on points.

The Morlocks

12-04-2009, 12:53 PM

By the time this long awaited match took place, Cuevas was merely a shell. Prime for prime, Duran would've taken it on points.
but what a fight it would have been. worth the top ticket price. in his prime, Cuevas may have been the hardest puncher i ever saw. his chin was great. he started wearing down after the Shields fight and was never the same, but it still took Herans about 400 flush right hands to ko him. What if Cuevas landed 1 punch on Hearns fullforce to the chin or body? Hearns would have fallen. Pipino and Duran would have been brutal and beautiful. The ultimate test of Machismo. I like Duran (pretty much against anyone in his prime), but it would have been great. BTW, Cuevas ko's Palimino in his prime. Look at the ratings in 1978 and see Cuevas fought and detroyed all the top guys while Palominofought washerwoman and nobodies except for Muniz. :hat Cuevas had the greatest left uppercutlike

The Morlocks

12-04-2009, 12:59 PM

but what a fight it would have been. worth the top ticket price. in his prime, Cuevas may have been the hardest puncher i ever saw. his chin was great. he started wearing down after the Shields fight and was never the same, but it still took Herans about 400 flush right hands to ko him. What if Cuevas landed 1 punch on Hearns fullforce to the chin or body? Hearns would have fallen. Pipino and Duran would have been brutal and beautiful. The ultimate test of Machismo. I like Duran (pretty much against anyone in his prime), but it would have been great. BTW, Cuevas ko's Palimino in his prime. Look at the ratings in 1978 and see Cuevas fought and detroyed all the top guys while Palominofought washerwoman and nobodies except for Muniz. :hat Cuevas had the greatest left uppercutlike
hook I ever saw. the next best at it was Gomez. the latins ruled the sport in the 70's except for heavy. Long live Duran, Cuevas, Galindez, Arguello, Monzon, Pintor, Zamora, Zarate, Lopez, Olivares, Pedroza, Canto, Napoles, "Kid Pambele", Escalera, Jofre, Marcel, Lujan, The great Esteban DeJesus RIP, Benitez and the rest. They came to fight, asked no quarter (as others would in the future; Leonard, M:hatayweather having to have things their own way) and gave no quarter.

MRBILL

12-04-2009, 01:55 PM

Oh, Duran was serious for Cuevas in '83........ Duran was a trim (For Him) 152 to Cuevas' 149 pounds......... Hell, just two months earlier Duran was a sluggish 157 pounds for Jimmy Batten in Florida and it was sad to see Duran fighting a "Walk-Out" fight after Aaron Pryor just hammered Alexis Arguello.......

Neither Cuevas or Duran had any luck against Hearns in 1980 and '84......... Hearns was too big and lanky for them shorter and smaller framed guys......... Making weight or not, Hearns looked huge to Cuevas and Duran.........

I never saw Cuevas' loss to Roger Stafford, but after Cuevas was crushed by Hearns and lost his title, Cuevas was NEVER the same guy..... Cuevas showed poor skill and technique against Duran in 1983........ Cuevas was easy to hit / counter cuz he was so reckless and wild with his wind-up shots from left and right field........

I thought Cuevas could've continued after Duran hammered him in round 4, but it was pointless to let it go on......... Duran was gonna get Cuevas outta there in round 5 for sure.........

MR.BILL

IntentionalButt

12-04-2009, 02:16 PM

Bill, did you see my question on the last page?

Duran-Cuevas at 147 in mid 1980 (before Hearns for Pipino, between Leonard I and II for Manos). :think What do you think? Same outcome?

MRBILL

12-04-2009, 02:26 PM

Yeah......... In '80 at 145 pounds, Duran was on fire in Montreal........... That version of Duran KILLS Cuevas pretty much the same............

Hell, people say this and that about Duran in the "No Mas" fight in New Orleans, but in truth, Duran was not so outta shape he couldn't beat a top-notch welterweight.... Duran still made 147 pounds for Leonard the second time around and he was doing okay and well enough to be competitive...... If anything, Duran was just frustrated that Leonard wanted to stick and move and move some more with jive tactics being applied...... Duran grew angry and basically said: "Fuck This Shit." It was a mistake, and we ALL know that---NOW!! But this horseshit that Duran had cramps and was feeling sick in the ring was a series of excuses.......... Still, even that Duran could beat Cuevas or a Palomino in Nov. of 1980 in New Orleans; just not a Leonard or a Hearns........

MR.BILL

Duodenum

12-04-2009, 02:58 PM

I never saw Cuevas' loss to Roger Stafford, but after Cuevas was crushed by Hearns and lost his title, Cuevas was NEVER the same guy.Stafford-Cuevas made it clear that Pipino was no longer what he had been before Hearns. It wasn't so much that Stafford won the decision, but the fact that he easily dropped somebody who previously had a reputation for an iron chin. (Cuevas wasn't in any serious distress as a result of this knockdown, and he alertly took the benefit of a full count when he could have gotten up immediately, but it was still significant that he went down in the first place.)

Shake's post #12 provided a very alert observation about Cuevas going downstairs, and Duran avoiding a repeat of that. Unlike Mugabe after Hagler, his punch didn't desert him after Hearns, but Pipino didn't have the skills to complement his power. (In his final championship win, I had Harold Volbrecht shutting him out before a single hook did in the South African. Volbrecht was a short, fast and skilled, but relatively light fisted stylist who moved in and out with lightning combinations of four, five and even six punches, but he couldn't even tickle Cuevas with these. Regardless, he acquitted himself well, and had a long respectable career. After Cuevas, only the undefeated Breland and LaRocca were able to beat him.)

MRBILL

12-04-2009, 03:23 PM

GEEZ!! Nino LaRocca............ I was sold on that dude prior to his '84 title fight with Donald Curry............. But it was foolish....... LaRocca had this awesome record against a crop of European "Who's Dat?" type of guys........ I picked LaRocca to beat Curry, but I was wrong........... LaRocca fell apart after his KO loss to Curry.......

I saw Cuevas KO a stiff from Mexico named Maurice Bravo in around 1985 and that caused a buzz in Los Angeles for a brief moment....... But it was short-lived........ Cuevas started losing again within his next couple of fights.......

I wish I had access to a "Clean" copy of Duran's 1987 comeback win over Juan Carlos Giminez....... I have a taped copy of such horrid quality it ruins the atmosphere of my reviewing process........ Duran was wobbled / rocked in round 1, but hung on and got his motor running to win the decision........

MR.BILL

Duodenum

12-04-2009, 04:56 PM

GEEZ!! Nino LaRocca............ I was sold on that dude prior to his '84 title fight with Donald Curry............. But it was foolish....... LaRocca had this awesome record against a crop of European "Who's Dat?" type of guys........ I picked LaRocca to beat Curry, but I was wrong........... LaRocca fell apart after his KO loss to Curry.......
I was sold on LaRocca too, after the way he leatherslathered Bobby Joe Young. (He predicted a first round knockout on that deadly slugger and nearly pulled it off.) LaRocca looked more like a greyhound than anything I've ever seen in the ring, but his penultimate victory over a then streaking Laing was his only really good win after the loss to Curry.

divac

12-05-2009, 05:23 AM

Where the fighters in there prime, No. Was it a farce, hell no, it was a 4 round very tough fight. There was very little farce involved in that fight

Agreed.....the matchup was certainly not a farce.
Duran was coming off losing to Benitez and Laing, and Cuevas had just lost to Roger Stafford.

......the matchup was built as a one where the winner could resurrect his career.
Duran was motivated, but certainly he had the type of opponent in Cuevas that would make him look good.

If you straight just come in at Duran, he's just to good at that game and is going to pick you apart.

Pipino was definitely the right opponent for Duran and a fan favorite to attract the Latino fan base.

Shake

12-05-2009, 05:40 AM

If you straight just come in at Duran, he's just to good at that game and is going to pick you apart.

So true. Every time he overachieved (Moore, Cuevas, Barkley, Leonard) during the latter part of his career, it was against such an opponent.

la-califa

12-05-2009, 10:11 AM

The Morlocks

12-05-2009, 10:12 AM

So true. Every time he overachieved (Moore, Cuevas, Barkley, Leonard) during the latter part of his career, it was against such an opponent.
people w/out skills overachieve. Duran kickedtheir asses because he was a better fighter. period. he is viewed as such in the context of history. noone held a title for 7 years and then stepped up a beat a guy like leonard easily but Duran. he beat SRL in hisb 13th year. Where were Leonard and Hearns in their 13th yr. as pros.:hat

Shake

12-05-2009, 10:50 AM

people w/out skills overachieve. Duran kickedtheir asses because he was a better fighter. period. he is viewed as such in the context of history. noone held a title for 7 years and then stepped up a beat a guy like leonard easily but Duran. he beat SRL in hisb 13th year. Where were Leonard and Hearns in their 13th yr. as pros.:hat

Everything you mentioned doesn't necessarily invalidate what I meant -- Duran did notably better in all those matches than was expected of him beforehand. Now, in hindsight, we can conclude those expectations may have been faulty. :)

Duran is my favorite fighter, and undoubtedly higher on the list of all-time greats than both Leonard and Hearns, so you're preaching to the choir, here. I will note that I think Leonard was an incredible specimen as well, and head-to-head he's in there with a shout against anyone.

Edit: I also did not see Duran walking through Cuevas' shots. I think Duran picked his range very well in this fight.

The Morlocks

12-05-2009, 01:10 PM

Everything you mentioned doesn't necessarily invalidate what I meant -- Duran did notably better in all those matches than was expected of him beforehand. Now, in hindsight, we can conclude those expectations may have been faulty. :)

Duran is my favorite fighter, and undoubtedly higher on the list of all-time greats than both Leonard and Hearns, so you're preaching to the choir, here. I will note that I think Leonard was an incredible specimen as well, and head-to-head he's in there with a shout against anyone.

Edit: I also did not see Duran walking through Cuevas' shots. I think Duran picked his range very well in this fight.
point takin':hat

MRBILL

12-05-2009, 01:34 PM

You're assuming that Duran would walk through a prime power of Cuevas like he did in 1983. In his prime Cuevas hit equally hard, if not harder than Thomas Hearns. Duran could not shake off those blows against Hearns. Very shortly before the Leonard rematch, Duran was reported to be at 180 Lbs. plus. He lost alot of weight in a hurry.

I'll tell you what I think........ I think Duran at 145 pounds and age 29 in Montreal was a goddamn devil in the ring and would've eaten anyone from 140 to 150 solid pounds alive on that June night in 1980........

In June of 1980, Pipino Cuevas was preparing to but not yet fought Tommy Hearns.... Had Cuevas bypassed Hearns altogether and signed to fight Duran in the fall of 1980, I still think Duran would've killed Cuevas.... Of course I am taking into consideration that Duran maintains his motivation and focus and doesn't balloon upward of 180 pounds like he normally did after a big win....... A well tuned Duran of 1980 beats a well tuned Cuevas of that very year......... IMO!!!

Also..... Weight gain and weight loss for Duran was a problem from time-to-time, but I thought Duran looked physically pretty good at the full 147 he tilted for the Leonard rematch in New Orleans........... Was Duran a little weak going in? Probably... Christ, he lost over 30 pounds to make weight...... Did Duran look horrible in the rematch going into the fateful round 8? NO!!!! Duran just was offset and frustrated by Leonard's speed and movement and he said: "Fuck It!"

But, all in all..... YES! Duran still beats the piss outta Cuevas in 1980 or 1983...... Either way........... OH! Cuevas' power was still there at age 24 and 149 pounds in '83.......... Cuevas winged serious power shots to Duran..... Duran dodged several bullets, but he got clipped by a few before he lowered the boom on Cuevas......... Duran never looked to be in any real trouble from Cuevas at all in 1983......... I can't say the same about Cuevas...... By round 3 in 1983 against Duran, Cuevas was on his way out.......... Peace...

MR.BILL:bbb:deal:hat

mcvey

12-05-2009, 01:48 PM

This is a classic fight to me; yet the fact it was really one-sided........... Duran is God......

MR.BILL

The difference to me was, one was a great puncher ,and one was a great fighter.:good

MRBILL

12-05-2009, 01:53 PM

The difference to me was, one was a great puncher ,and one was a great fighter.:good

I too was never impressed with Cuevas' skills or finess........ Cuevas always moved roughly and left himself wide open in his rushing attacks......

Cuevas had that same "Bazooka" Limon approach of throwing both hands to the head and body while leading in with their face....... Easy to counter........

Look.... I thought Cuevas was entertaining, but I never thought he was brilliant with anything other than power at 147 pounds......

MR.BILL

TheGreatA

12-05-2009, 02:17 PM

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la-califa

12-05-2009, 02:20 PM

I'll tell you what I think........ I think Duran at 145 pounds and age 29 in Montreal was a goddamn devil in the ring and would've eaten anyone from 140 to 150 solid pounds alive on that June night in 1980........

In June of 1980, Pipino Cuevas was preparing to but not yet fought Tommy Hearns.... Had Cuevas bypassed Hearns altogether and signed to fight Duran in the fall of 1980, I still think Duran would've killed Cuevas.... Of course I am taking into consideration that Duran maintains his motivation and focus and doesn't balloon upward of 180 pounds like he normally did after a big win....... A well tuned Duran of 1980 beats a well tuned Cuevas of that very year......... IMO!!!

Also..... Weight gain and weight loss for Duran was a problem from time-to-time, but I thought Duran looked physically pretty good at the full 147 he tilted for the Leonard rematch in New Orleans........... Was Duran a little weak going in? Probably... Christ, he lost over 30 pounds to make weight...... Did Duran look horrible in the rematch going into the fateful round 8? NO!!!! Duran just was offset and frustrated by Leonard's speed and movement and he said: "Fuck It!"

But, all in all..... YES! Duran still beats the piss outta Cuevas in 1980 or 1983...... Either way........... OH! Cuevas' power was still there at age 24 and 149 pounds in '83.......... Cuevas winged serious power shots to Duran..... Duran dodged several bullets, but he got clipped by a few before he lowered the boom on Cuevas......... Duran never looked to be in any real trouble from Cuevas at all in 1983......... I can't say the same about Cuevas...... By round 3 in 1983 against Duran, Cuevas was on his way out.......... Peace...

MR.BILL:bbb:deal:hatI'm not debating if Cuevas would beat Duran. Just stating about Duran MIGHT not have been able to walk through a PRIME Cuevas, like he did to the Cuevas of 1983. By 1983 Cuevas was a shell of his former self. He did not have the leverage on his power punches like he did in his Championship prime. Duran had the style to defeat Cuevas. But if he took a left hook flush, like a flush right hand from Tommy Hearns in 1984. Duran could have been in serious trouble. In 1979 when Duran moved up to Welterweight. He opted to fight Palomino, instead of challenging Cuevas for the WBA Welterweight Championship. THEN challenged Leonard for the WBC Championship. In any case it would have been HUGE! But truthfully Duran was too smart to engage in powershots with a prime Cuevas. & had the tools to outbox Pipino & wear him down.

MRBILL

12-05-2009, 02:49 PM

I'm not debating if Cuevas would beat Duran. Just stating about Duran MIGHT not have been able to walk through a PRIME Cuevas, like he did to the Cuevas of 1983. By 1983 Cuevas was a shell of his former self. He did not have the leverage on his power punches like he did in his Championship prime. Duran had the style to defeat Cuevas. But if he took a left hook flush, like a flush right hand from Tommy Hearns in 1984. Duran could have been in serious trouble. In 1979 when Duran moved up to Welterweight. He opted to fight Palomino, instead of challenging Cuevas for the WBA Welterweight Championship. THEN challenged Leonard for the WBC Championship. In any case it would have been HUGE! But truthfully Duran was too smart to engage in powershots with a prime Cuevas. & had the tools to outbox Pipino & wear him down.

Whether because they started boxing as kids or not, "Cuevas & Benitez" are TWO classic examples of once good / great champions who seemingly went to hell over night at a still youthful age south of 25..... Cuevas was faded after Hearns knocked him for a loop in the summer of '80, and Benitez was never the same after he lost to Hearns on points in 1982.......

As for who was better at 147 between 1976 thru 1979, I give Carlos Palomino the edge in skills and finess over the one-dimensional Cuevas..... No doubt.........

MR.BILL

la-califa

12-05-2009, 03:07 PM

Whether because they started boxing as kids or not, "Cuevas & Benitez" are TWO classic examples of once good / great champions who seemingly went to hell over night at a still youthful age south of 25..... Cuevas was faded after Hearns knocked him for a loop in the summer of '80, and Benitez was never the same after he lost to Hearns on points in 1982.......

As for who was better at 147 between 1976 thru 1979, I give Carlos Palomino the edge in skills and finess over the one-dimensional Cuevas..... No doubt.........

MR.BILLThat one dimension STILL holds the Welterweight record for most consecutive title defenses won by knockout! 10. broken by Randy Shields in the 11th defense.:deal

MRBILL

12-05-2009, 03:22 PM

That one dimension STILL holds the Welterweight record for most consecutive title defenses won by knockout! 10. broken by Randy Shields in the 11th defense.:deal

Yeah.... But Cuevas also looked stronger and even bigger than some of them dudes he defended against like: "Angel Espada, Clyde Grey, Harry Weston & Bill Backus." Cuevas was well matched in his favor there......

As far as taking risks as a champion, I'd say fights with "Ranzany & Sheilds" were risk takers--on paper........ Of course Tommy Hearns was the BIG threat........

Cuevas had power at 147, but not a whole lot else.......... His chin seemed intact shy of age 21, but then it began to fail afterward....... Cuevas' jab sucked and his lateral movement was average at best...... But he was a fun guy to watch in the ring......

MR.BILL:deal:bbb:thumbsup

la-califa

12-05-2009, 03:42 PM

Yeah.... But Cuevas also looked stronger and even bigger than some of them dudes he defended against like: "Angel Espada, Clyde Grey, Harry Weston & Bill Backus." Cuevas was well matched in his favor there......

As far as taking risks as a champion, I'd say fights with "Ranzany & Sheilds" were risk takers--on paper........ Of course Tommy Hearns was the BIG threat........

Cuevas had power at 147, but not a whole lot else.......... His chin seemed intact shy of age 21, but then it began to fail afterward....... Cuevas' jab sucked and his lateral movement was average at best...... But he was a fun guy to watch in the ring......

MR.BILL:deal:bbb:thumbsupYeah, some of those Mexican fighters are do-or-die! He was destined to burn out young. If he fought Hearns or not...Angel Espada was the reigning Champion, Clyde Gray & Harold Weston Jr. were viable contenders for the Championship. Just better boxers, & not known for power. (Although, Espada & Weston suffered broken jaws. & Backus a broken orbital bone!):deal

MAG1965

12-05-2009, 09:30 PM

Duran probably could've beaten Cuevas in 1978 while weighing between 135 to 140 pounds to Cuevas' 147 pounds as champions at lightweight & welterweight........ Cuevas looked a fool against Duran........... It was brutally one-sided............ Duran being "7" yrs older is just amazing............ Peace....

MR.BILL:good:heyCuevas was not prime or near it in 1983. Duran had better defense and preserved himself better.

MRBILL

12-05-2009, 10:12 PM

Cuevas was not prime or near it in 1983. Duran had better defense and preserved himself better.

Still, no excuse........ Duran was age 31 to Cuevas' mere age 24 in 1983 is a huge "7" year gap in age..... Plus, Cuevas was never rumored to have ballooned up in weight between title bouts during the 70s as was the case with Duran....... Duran was simply better all around than Cuevas.........
:good:hey

MR.BILL

WhataRock

12-05-2009, 10:25 PM

Cueves was nearly toast.

His age is of little relevance...He was champ at 18 and had been fighting world class fighters in wars since.

But thats not to say you cant give Duran some credit for that win. Pipino's power meant that he was still dangerous, even if others facets of his game were sliding.

JohnThomas1

12-05-2009, 10:43 PM

Still, no excuse........ Duran was age 31 to Cuevas' mere age 24 in 1983 is a huge "7" year gap in age..... Plus, Cuevas was never rumored to have ballooned up in weight between title bouts during the 70s as was the case with Duran....... Duran was simply better all around than Cuevas.........
:good:hey

MR.BILL

Cuevas was 25 actually, lets be honest if we are gonna go all factual :lol:

But really, what does age have to do with this matchup? He was basically washed up. Some are washed up at 21 some at 45, many factors involved.

Cuevas had seen many wars and been poleaxed by Hearns. Duran by contrast had the most underrated defense of his time and had never copped a whupping.

So to dumb it down

Cuevas = damaged goods.

Duran = preserved goods that turned out to have so much more left than was known at the time it's not funny.

MRBILL

12-06-2009, 01:10 AM

Cuevas was 25 actually, lets be honest if we are gonna go all factual :lol:

But really, what does age have to do with this matchup? He was basically washed up. Some are washed up at 21 some at 45, many factors involved.

Cuevas had seen many wars and been poleaxed by Hearns. Duran by contrast had the most underrated defense of his time and had never copped a whupping.

So to dumb it down

Cuevas = damaged goods.

Duran = preserved goods that turned out to have so much more left than was known at the time it's not funny.

Okay, but Ol' Cuevas kept on going until 1989 basically winning some and losing some...... His final fight was against Lupe Aquino who KO'd Cuevas..... Cuevas' record stands at 35-15-0 (31) KO's.... I'm not sure if he ever had a draw or two.?.? Still.....
:hat

MR.BILL

MAG1965

12-06-2009, 04:15 AM

MRBILL

12-06-2009, 01:01 PM

The Hearns fight destroyed Cuevas and diminished him. Age is just a number in this case. The Duran/Cuevas fight was 3 long years from Hearns/Cuevas.

Quick KO's generally aren't a beating, rather more so an icing.... Hearns iced Cuevas pretty quickly with little pain involved....... Its not like Cuevas was all busted up internally after being parked by Hearns in 1980...... If anything, Cuevas lost it mentally after that loss in '80.... Physically he was fine.... IMO!!!

On the other hand, a guy like Duran who never took a real beating in his life was butchered and bagged by Hearns later in 1984...... That type of quick KO was a beating......... Duran was dropped 2X and cut above the eye in the first stanza with Hearns.... And by the second round, Duran was on wobbly legs getting tagged with right hands that he was incapable of seeing or stopping.... Christ, Duran took several wicked ass shots to the head and body before falling back to the ropes to eat the Big Mac right of Hearns' that planted Duran like a seed in a cabbage field..........

Two quick KO's by Tommy Hearns, but the fights / beatings were different.........
:deal

MR.BILL:bbb

JohnThomas1

12-06-2009, 07:14 PM

Quick KO's generally aren't a beating, rather more so an icing.... Hearns iced Cuevas pretty quickly with little pain involved....... Its not like Cuevas was all busted up internally after being parked by Hearns in 1980...... If anything, Cuevas lost it mentally after that loss in '80.... Physically he was fine.... IMO!!!

On the other hand, a guy like Duran who never took a real beating in his life was butchered and bagged by Hearns later in 1984...... That type of quick KO was a beating......... Duran was dropped 2X and cut above the eye in the first stanza with Hearns.... And by the second round, Duran was on wobbly legs getting tagged with right hands that he was incapable of seeing or stopping.... Christ, Duran took several wicked ass shots to the head and body before falling back to the ropes to eat the Big Mac right of Hearns' that planted Duran like a seed in a cabbage field..........

Two quick KO's by Tommy Hearns, but the fights / beatings were different.........
:deal

MR.BILL:bbb

You make the two beatings sound as different as night and day :lol:

Maybe the biggest difference is that you have a special affinity for only one of the victims :yep (and therefore just one of the combatants in this thread)

MRBILL

12-06-2009, 07:53 PM

You make the two beatings sound as different as night and day :lol:

Maybe the biggest difference is that you have a special affinity for only one of the victims :yep (and therefore just one of the combatants in this thread)

Say WTF?:huh C'mon, Johnny boy.... Point was Duran's KO loss to Hearns was MUCH MORE worse than what Cuevas endured from Hearns in 1980........:deal

HOWEVER! In 1983, Duran's '84 loss to Hearns had nothing to do with his fight with Cuevas in Los Angeles.......:nono

MR.BILL

MRBILL

12-06-2009, 08:25 PM

You make the two beatings sound as different as night and day :lol:

Maybe the biggest difference is that you have a special affinity for only one of the victims :yep (and therefore just one of the combatants in this thread)

Johnny,

You gotta put all that 'Sigmund Freud' hanky panky aside and move with the flow.... Too much "Intellect" will haunt a man........ Best results generally stem from being short and sweet.........
:deal:think

MR.BILL

JohnThomas1

12-06-2009, 09:57 PM

Can i post now or do you want a third chop at the same quote? :lol:

Poor Pipino, no sympathy whatsoever :roll:

MAG1965

12-06-2009, 10:55 PM

Quick KO's generally aren't a beating, rather more so an icing.... Hearns iced Cuevas pretty quickly with little pain involved....... Its not like Cuevas was all busted up internally after being parked by Hearns in 1980...... If anything, Cuevas lost it mentally after that loss in '80.... Physically he was fine.... IMO!!!

On the other hand, a guy like Duran who never took a real beating in his life was butchered and bagged by Hearns later in 1984...... That type of quick KO was a beating......... Duran was dropped 2X and cut above the eye in the first stanza with Hearns.... And by the second round, Duran was on wobbly legs getting tagged with right hands that he was incapable of seeing or stopping.... Christ, Duran took several wicked ass shots to the head and body before falling back to the ropes to eat the Big Mac right of Hearns' that planted Duran like a seed in a cabbage field..........

Two quick KO's by Tommy Hearns, but the fights / beatings were different.........
:deal

MR.BILL:bbbThat was not a one punch knockout as the Duran fight was not either by Hearns. Hearns beat both guys up for 2 rounds and the last punch was just the finisher.

MRBILL

12-06-2009, 11:50 PM

Can i post now or do you want a third chop at the same quote? :lol:

Poor Pipino, no sympathy whatsoever :roll:

Johnny Boy,

I love you...... I do............ But that doesn't mean I wouldn't give a King's ransom to rap you in the mouth..... It's the intellectual types like you that cause me to tilt the bottle more so than ever.......
:admin:blood:patsch

MR.BILL

JohnThomas1

12-07-2009, 05:10 AM

Johnny Boy,

I love you...... I do............ But that doesn't mean I wouldn't give a King's ransom to rap you in the mouth..... It's the intellectual types like you that cause me to tilt the bottle more so than ever.......
:admin:blood:patsch

MR.BILL

Post loose or biased shit in here and it will often get picked up. This is one of the joys and qualities of the classic forum. Do you actually read what you write sometimes? Everyone has their opinion, but sometimes, well, you know!

Maybe you're tilting the bottle a bit too much before coming here!!

:hey

MRBILL

12-07-2009, 02:47 PM

Post loose or biased shit in here and it will often get picked up. This is one of the joys and qualities of the classic forum. Do you actually read what you write sometimes? Everyone has their opinion, but sometimes, well, you know!

Maybe you're tilting the bottle a bit too much before coming here!!

:hey

I've been here tweaked a few times, but I still pride myself with having seen, taped and read a lot over the last 30 + yrs since I've been following the racket.......... I'm not sold on names or just anybody who wins an ABC title....... Winning a title, whether fans like it or not, is NOT as big of a deal as it was prior to 1984..........
:deal
The WBA / WBC was all we needed... It was more than enough, too... Then came the IBF, WAA, WBU, IBO, IBA, IBC, WBF & WBO.......... I'm sure there is more.... We don't need them.........
:-(

I also feel we've had some pretty good fighters who were average champions..... Like: "Eddie M. Muhammad, Roger Mayweather, Milton McCrory, Saoul Mamby, Mo Hope, Juan LaPorte, Billy Costello, Rocky Lockridge" and several others..... All good fighters; not great champions.......
:deal
That truly applies to MOST of the title holders at heavyweight in the 80s aside from "Holmes and Tyson." Them guys were great.... But guys like: "Weaver, Dokes, Coetzee, Page, Tubbs, Spoon, Thomas, Berbick, Smith, Tucker & Mike Spinks" were all damn good fighters above 200 pounds, but did they ever do or deserve to be classified as great champs at 200+ pounds???? NO!!!
:-(

MR.BILL

Q: Is Pipino Cuevas a former GREAT champion? I suppose... His reign from '76 to '80 was nice......... Was Cuevas truly a great fighter? Not really... Bizarre....
:D

Q: Is Roberto Duran a great fighter / champion? YES!! Nuff said...:good:hey:bbb

MR.BILL:hat

MRBILL

12-07-2009, 06:54 PM

Let's keep this debate rolling................... I've looked this fight over the last few days, and Duran basically hurt Cuevas with all he threw in rds 3 & 4....... Cuevas landed a few wide hooks on Duran, but Duran was hardly moved at all over the duration........

MR.BILL:thumbsup:hat:admin

MRBILL

06-02-2011, 11:40 PM

Bumped on June 2, 2011...:bbb:deal

MAG1965

06-03-2011, 03:41 AM

MRBILL

06-03-2011, 03:57 AM

this Cuevas was not the same one who fought Hearns and held the Welterweight title. I think that Cuevas would have been tough for Duran and would have been 50/50 to win. That Cuevas would have landed on Duran when Cuevas was sharp.

Well, Duran of Jan. 1983 was already age 31 and on a bad streak against "Benitez, Laing, along with a lousy win over Batten" in 1982 and was thought to be washed-up going in against the still WAY SOUTH of age 30 Cuevas in 1983.... Duran at 152 pounds was conditioned and battered the conditioned 149 pound Cuevas in Los Angeles..... Fact is, one guy (Duran) was truly great, while the other vato (Cuevas) was merely good.... Still, I love the overall action for 4 rds..... DOOOORAN!!!

MR.BILL:hat

MAG1965

06-03-2011, 03:59 AM

Well, Duran of Jan. 1983 was already age 31 and on a bad streak against "Benitez, Laing, along with a lousy win over Batten" in 1982 and was thought to be washed-up going in against the still WAY SOUTH of age 30 Cuevas in 1983.... Duran at 152 pounds was conditioned and battered the conditioned 149 pound Cuevas in Los Angeles..... Fact is, one guy (Duran) was truly great, while the other vato (Cuevas) was merely good.... Still, I love the overall action for 4 rds..... DOOOORAN!!!

MR.BILL:hatCuevas was a great. 11 title defenses. Duran had not been knocked out in this point in his career, and Cuevas was stopped in 2 rounds by Hearns. This would have been a more interesting fight prior to the Hearns knockout or after Duran was stopped by Hearns.

MRBILL

06-03-2011, 04:05 AM

Cuevas was a great. 11 title defenses. Duran had not been knocked out in this point in his career, and Cuevas was stopped in 2 rounds by Hearns. This would have been a more interesting fight prior to the Hearns knockout or after Duran was stopped by Hearns.

Cuevas, like Palomino, fought selected vato's they could beat in the late 70s........ Both were good at best; never truly great.....

MR.BILL:bbb:deal:hat

la-califa

06-03-2011, 04:09 PM

Stafford-Cuevas made it clear that Pipino was no longer what he had been before Hearns. It wasn't so much that Stafford won the decision, but the fact that he easily dropped somebody who previously had a reputation for an iron chin. (Cuevas wasn't in any serious distress as a result of this knockdown, and he alertly took the benefit of a full count when he could have gotten up immediately, but it was still significant that he went down in the first place.)

Shake's post #12 provided a very alert observation about Cuevas going downstairs, and Duran avoiding a repeat of that. Unlike Mugabe after Hagler, his punch didn't desert him after Hearns, but Pipino didn't have the skills to complement his power. (In his final championship win, I had Harold Volbrecht shutting him out before a single hook did in the South African. Volbrecht was a short, fast and skilled, but relatively light fisted stylist who moved in and out with lightning combinations of four, five and even six punches, but he couldn't even tickle Cuevas with these. Regardless, he acquitted himself well, and had a long respectable career. After Cuevas, only the undefeated Breland and LaRocca were able to beat him.)
Actually it was split for Volbretch 39-38,39-38 & 38-39. Leonard was ringside & was seen shaking his head at the way Volbretch was dispatched.
La Rocca- Ranzany was an smazing boxing exhibition! Nino looked fantastic in that bout! I too thought he would win the Welterweight title.

MRBILL

06-03-2011, 06:13 PM

Actually it was split for Volbretch 39-38,39-38 & 38-39. Leonard was ringside & was seen shaking his head at the way Volbretch was dispatched.
La Rocca- Ranzany was an smazing boxing exhibition! Nino looked fantastic in that bout! I too thought he would win the Welterweight title.

YES! LaRocca had most of us fooled in 1983 and early '84.... I have his '84 TKO loss to Curry on tape.... LaRocca never fully recovered from that loss and his career went lukewarm for the remainder....

LaRocca had too much European padding on his record.. No pun intended...

MR.BILL:bbb:hat

MAG1965

06-03-2011, 07:12 PM

Cuevas, like Palomino, fought selected vato's they could beat in the late 70s........ Both were good at best; never truly great.....

MR.BILL:bbb:deal:hatI don't think Palomino can be compared to Cuevas..

MRBILL

06-03-2011, 07:39 PM

I don't think Palomino can be compared to Cuevas..

Different styles..... Palomino was a much better boxer, where as Cuevas was a much better puncher....

I'd bet on '78 Palomino to out-box '78 Cuevas over 10, 12 or 15 rds and get the decision... Me thinks Cuevas cannot get to and stop Palomino in a unified (WBC & WBA) title fight..... Cuevas has little chance of beating Palomino on points...
:deal:bbb:hey

MR.BILL:hat

Arminius

06-04-2011, 12:28 PM

Different styles..... Palomino was a much better boxer, where as Cuevas was a much better puncher....

I'd bet on '78 Palomino to out-box '78 Cuevas over 10, 12 or 15 rds and get the decision... Me thinks Cuevas cannot get to and stop Palomino in a unified (WBC & WBA) title fight..... Cuevas has little chance of beating Palomino on points...
:deal:bbb:hey

MR.BILL:hat

I agree. Palomino also had a granite chin. Cuevas would not have knocked him out and he sure couldn't out point him.