**Saturday Taylor vs. Pavlik: Questions and answers...**

[Orishaman]

Plenty can be said about the match between Pavlik and Taylor, yet I believe that Saturday match will be a session of questions and answers. Both have many intangibles that will need to be answer and both will present new questions to each other.

For Taylor:


He never had his chin tested, and Pavlik will be the guy to tested.
How vunerable Taylor will be to Pavlik’s strong overhead right hand.
Will Taylor allowed Pavlik to be the aggressor.
Taylor’s heart has never been in question, but how he will react after getting hurt and in trouble, will he know what to do or his aggressiveness will his demises..
For Pavlik:

1. Can he go 12th rounds with a MW Champion of the world.
2. Does Pavlik knows what he need to do win and beat the Champ.
3. Pavlik experience, he will be in with the MW Champ of the world, can he be overwhelm.
4. How Pavlik will react if in trouble, again this is the MW Champ of the world.
5. Can he handle the strong jab from Taylor.

All these questions will be answer soon enough on Saturday…initially I gave the nod to Pavlik but after further review, this fight might be a lot closer than many expect..and Jermain might pull yet another squiker…

[Orishaman]

The answer to all your questions is Pavlik by KO.

I see that you are the shit.....you know your shit.....don;t you:rofl :patsch Fuck...Jermain might as well just mail his surrender....:patsch

[pipe wrenched]

All valid questions... That is what makes this fight so interesting and exciting! I am ready for Saturday night brother!

:good

[zivic1941]

Plenty can be said about the match between Pavlik and Taylor, yet I believe that Saturday match will be a session of questions and answers. Both have many intangibles that will need to be answer and both will present new questions to each other.

For Taylor:

He never had his chin tested, and Pavlik will be the guy to tested.
How vunerable Taylor will be to Pavlik’s strong overhead right hand.
Will Taylor allowed Pavlik to be the aggressor.
Taylor’s heart has never been in question, but how he will react after getting hurt and in trouble, will he know what to do or his aggressiveness will his demises..
For Pavlik:

1. Can he go 12th rounds with a MW Champion of the world.
2. Does Pavlik knows what he need to do win and beat the Champ.
3. Pavlik experience, he will be in with the MW Champ of the world, can he be overwhelm.
4. How Pavlik will react if in trouble, again this is the MW Champ of the world.
5. Can he handle the strong jab from Taylor.

All these questions will be answer soon enough on Saturday…initially I gave the nod to Pavlik but after further review, this fight might be a lot closer than many expect..and Jermain might pull yet another squiker…

I'm just thankful we don't have to see Trinidad labor through another drubbing. :happy

Here's some random thoughts:


As usual, HBO did an excellent job with their pre-fight countdown. They specifically concentrated on the fighters and their trainers, and illustrated the contrasts between both very well.

I don't know who is going to win this fight. A host of scenarios can play out. In my opinion, it's an excellent styles match-up. Taylor's superior speed and experience against elite opposition pitted against Pavlik's balls and power. If they're both on point and not too drained from making the weight, it's a great fight. Unlike his last two opponents, Taylor will be facing a straight-up orthodox fighter who has a fairly porous defense, but he's also facing the first real puncher in his career as well.

I think the best thing for Taylor to do in this fight is to establish respect early. Come out and use his speed advantage to nail Pavlik with big shots in the very first round. If not, Pavlik is in a position where he can get into a rhythm and bulldoze Taylor. Pavlik is known for early knockouts, but it's important to note that those knockouts were usually scored against vastly inferior opponents. If you look at Pavlik's past fights with his better and more recent opponents (Miranda, Zertuche, McKart, and Zuniga), he gets stronger as the rounds go by.

On the other side of the coin, Taylor presents some interesting problems for Pavlik. First, Taylor is actually more likely to hurt Pavlik than a puncher like Edison Miranda. Miranda was throwing a lot of big shots, but most of those shots were looping shots Pavlik could see. Taylor, because of his speed advantage (and if he's on point), has the ability to land crisp, hard, straight shots on Pavlik from angles Pavlik might not be able to see. That's the key. If Taylor can hurt Pavlik and surprise him with fast, blind shots with plenty of leverage and power, he can establish respect and use his superior speed to keep Pavlik at bay.

I'm not convinced, however, that it's going to happen. First, Pavlik's punching power is a major factor. Taylor has faced crafty, Hall of Fame opposition, but he's never faced a ranked knockout artist in his career. To add to the fray, even though I'm pretty sure Pavlik is a converted southpaw, he can end a fight with either hand at any time. He is the type of fighter who appears capable of catching a faster opponent in the middle of a flurry like Mike Weaver did against Carl Williams in the 1980s, and as Jorge Castro did against John David Jackson in the 1990s. When a speed-oriented fighter gets in a groove against a fighter they view as one dimensional, sometimes they become overconfident and neglect substantive defense, and end up as a knockout victim. That's a huge X factor in this fight.

Moreover, for a freakishly tall middleweight, Pavlik is a well-schooled infighter. As a corollary to what I mentioned above about Pavlik getting stronger as the rounds go by, Pavlik is a fighter who concentrates on the body with short, precise shots, and has shown a propensity to grind an opponent's body and intestinal fortitude up with accumulation, Once again, this is counter to the notion that he's an impatient puncher looking for the big shot. If Pavlik goes to the body as I expect him to, Taylor should counter to Pavlik's body in kind. At one time in his career, Taylor appeared to be developing into one of the most vicious body puncher's in the sport, but intriguingly, he's abandoned this tactic as his level of opposition has improved. It will be interesting to see how Taylor responds when Pavlik goes downstairs. Will he get on his bike as Pavlik has predicted, or surprise the lanky Pavlik with power shots to the body of his own?

Another interesting issue in this fight is the possible misnomer of Taylor's superior ring experience. At face value, Pavlik hasn't faced Taylor's level of opposition, but he can adapt in the ring better than most think. He follows instructions well. In watching Pavlik against Bronco McKart, I was impressed with his extraordinary patience against a cagey foe with a wealth of elite level experience. Pavlik was smart enough to know that McKart was a ringwise veteran who had never been knocked out. He knew it would take time to break him down. McKart eventually collapsed under the accumulation of well placed power shots, to both the body and the head.

Against power puncher Edison Miranda, Pavlik knew that Miranda possessed both heavy hands and heavy feet, and didn't have a reverse gear. When Pavlik forced Miranda to back up, it not only diminished a lot of Miranda's leverage, but the strategy also put Miranda under tremendous physical and psychological pressure, which caused Miranda to tire quickly. All told, Taylor has faced much better opposition than Pavlik, but Pavlik might actually be the less reactive fighter who thinks his way through a fight instead of defaulting to his physical attributes under stress. The way for a fighter of Taylor's style to offset Pavlik is to put more weight on his back foot, draw Pavlik in, use a powerful, but judicious, disciplined, and educated jab while being cognizant of counters, and put his punches together in smooth, cerebral combinations. Pavlik is dangerous, and should be treated accordingly.

One of the other key issues in this fight is intangibles. This is a fairly complex issue. Pavlik is obviously hungry, but the media is more pro-Pavlik, so it puts Taylor into a position where goes into the fight with something to prove, almost as if he's an underdog. In that same vein, if Taylor loses, the fallout is extreme. It's as if he's been exposed, even though he fought well against Hopkins & Wright, two of the truly elite, top PFP fighters in the sport.

On the other side of the coin, despite a lot of support being thrown his way, Pavlik goes into the fight with myriad pressures. Pavlik, born and raised in tough, gritty, and eviscerated post-industrial Youngstown, often appears mature beyond his years. Nonetheless, to be sure, how will he respond to all of the big lights, big city pressure surrounding the "event" of a high profile world title fight? A recent article left me with some concerns. Here is the link:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

A few months ago, Ray Mancini stated that Pavlik should go away to camp for this fight, and for other big fights in the future. In my opinion, he's right.

Right now, I'd say intangibles slightly favor Taylor at this juncture. In reading and seeing interviews with Taylor, he looks and sounds extremely focused.

All in all, this is a great match-up. Here is a quick breakdown:

Hand and Foot Speed - Taylor
Power - Pavlik
Experience - Taylor
Stamina - Pavlik
Defense - Taylor
Heart - Even
Chin - Pavlik
Ring Generalship - Pavlik*
Intangibles - Taylor

Enjoy the fight.


*Regarding ring generalship, Pavlik has shown an ability to do a lot of subtle things to control the pace and tempo of both the ring and the fight. As noted, he might very well be a less reactive fighter than Taylor. He follows instructions and applies tactics and strategy well for a 25-year-old fighter who is mostly known as a puncher.

[FlatNose]

I'm starting to get that feeling..the tenseness and anticipation of something special going to happen.The sensation is magnified by the astute observations of some of the more learned posters...thank you....this could be a great one, another Ali-Frazier I, another Duran Leonard I, or Hagler -Hearns.We'll see.

[sues2nd]

The answer to all your questions is Pavlik by KO.

:lol:

[jsimps]

Good post!!!

[sthomas]

We have the makings of a great fight. It reminds me a bit of the Holmes-Cooney match, although I think Pavlik is better than Cooney was and Holmes was better than Taylor is. It was an interesting fight because Cooney changed his style. Cooney had destroyed in short order, pretty much everyone before Holmes. (I was very bummed when my favorite Ken Norton got hammered in the 1st by Cooney). Once Cooney got knocked down in the 2nd round by Holmes (was it round 2?), Cooney became a boxer and Holmes became the stalker. Cooney actually did surprisingly well in this reversal of roles for a while. Around the tenth I vaguely remember Howard Cosell talking about Holmes as having been a great champion, as though he thought Holmes was losing and would lose this fight. Holmes probably heard that, and finally put Cooney away.

So here with Taylor-Pavlik, I sense a similar scenario, but even more competitive. I think it really hinges on Pavliks boxing ability which I think is somewhat underatted. As a previous poster mentioned, his ability to make adjustments to the oppositions style has been shown more times than once. I do not believe Pavlik is just going to come out and go for broke. I think he will be patient, use his jab a lot and pick his spots. As the fight goes on he will then get more and more aggressive, and unload.

I've been impressed with Taylor taking this fight very serioulsy other than some moments of Bravado talk. Isolating himself in camp, and hopefully listening to his trainer should have him well prepared to defend. His success will depend on the effectiveness of his jab and movement. If the jab aint working, he's in for a long brutal night. If it is noticibly superior to Pavlik's then he can really go to work, jabbing moving, and countering. However, Pavlik will still be dangerous.

My pick??????? After being on the fence a while I'm leaning slightly toward Pavlik now as he will be dangerous regardless of the situation.

Should be a great fight!

[badger6]

And no Im not white nor do I want to see a white boy as MW champ but this white boy is bad.

Why don't you want to see a "white boy" as MW champ ??? Are you a racist ???

[uppa kut]

I'm just thankful we don't have to see Trinidad labor through another drubbing. :happy

Here's some random thoughts:


As usual, HBO did an excellent job with their pre-fight countdown. They specifically concentrated on the fighters and their trainers, and illustrated the contrasts between both very well.

I don't know who is going to win this fight. A host of scenarios can play out. In my opinion, it's an excellent styles match-up. Taylor's superior speed and experience against elite opposition pitted against Pavlik's balls and power. If they're both on point and not too drained from making the weight, it's a great fight. Unlike his last two opponents, Taylor will be facing a straight-up orthodox fighter who has a fairly porous defense, but he's also facing the first real puncher in his career as well.

I think the best thing for Taylor to do in this fight is to establish respect early. Come out and use his speed advantage to nail Pavlik with big shots in the very first round. If not, Pavlik is in a position where he can get into a rhythm and bulldoze Taylor. Pavlik is known for early knockouts, but it's important to note that those knockouts were usually scored against vastly inferior opponents. If you look at Pavlik's past fights with his better and more recent opponents (Miranda, Zertuche, McKart, and Zuniga), he gets stronger as the rounds go by.

On the other side of the coin, Taylor presents some interesting problems for Pavlik. First, Taylor is actually more likely to hurt Pavlik than a puncher like Edison Miranda. Miranda was throwing a lot of big shots, but most of those shots were looping shots Pavlik could see. Taylor, because of his speed advantage (and if he's on point), has the ability to land crisp, hard, straight shots on Pavlik from angles Pavlik might not be able to see. That's the key. If Taylor can hurt Pavlik and surprise him with fast, blind shots with plenty of leverage and power, he can establish respect and use his superior speed to keep Pavlik at bay.

I'm not convinced, however, that it's going to happen. First, Pavlik's punching power is a major factor. Taylor has faced crafty, Hall of Fame opposition, but he's never faced a ranked knockout artist in his career. To add to the fray, even though I'm pretty sure Pavlik is a converted southpaw, he can end a fight with either hand at any time. He is the type of fighter who appears capable of catching a faster opponent in the middle of a flurry like Mike Weaver did against Carl Williams in the 1980s, and as Jorge Castro did against John David Jackson in the 1990s. When a speed-oriented fighter gets in a groove against a fighter they view as one dimensional, sometimes they become overconfident and neglect substantive defense, and end up as a knockout victim. That's a huge X factor in this fight.

Moreover, for a freakishly tall middleweight, Pavlik is a well-schooled infighter. As a corollary to what I mentioned above about Pavlik getting stronger as the rounds go by, Pavlik is a fighter who concentrates on the body with short, precise shots, and has shown a propensity to grind an opponent's body and intestinal fortitude up with accumulation, Once again, this is counter to the notion that he's an impatient puncher looking for the big shot. If Pavlik goes to the body as I expect him to, Taylor should counter to Pavlik's body in kind. At one time in his career, Taylor appeared to be developing into one of the most vicious body puncher's in the sport, but intriguingly, he's abandoned this tactic as his level of opposition has improved. It will be interesting to see how Taylor responds when Pavlik goes downstairs. Will he get on his bike as Pavlik has predicted, or surprise the lanky Pavlik with power shots to the body of his own?

Another interesting issue in this fight is the possible misnomer of Taylor's superior ring experience. At face value, Pavlik hasn't faced Taylor's level of opposition, but he can adapt in the ring better than most think. He follows instructions well. In watching Pavlik against Bronco McKart, I was impressed with his extraordinary patience against a cagey foe with a wealth of elite level experience. Pavlik was smart enough to know that McKart was a ringwise veteran who had never been knocked out. He knew it would take time to break him down. McKart eventually collapsed under the accumulation of well placed power shots, to both the body and the head.

Against power puncher Edison Miranda, Pavlik knew that Miranda possessed both heavy hands and heavy feet, and didn't have a reverse gear. When Pavlik forced Miranda to back up, it not only diminished a lot of Miranda's leverage, but the strategy also put Miranda under tremendous physical and psychological pressure, which caused Miranda to tire quickly. All told, Taylor has faced much better opposition than Pavlik, but Pavlik might actually be the less reactive fighter who thinks his way through a fight instead of defaulting to his physical attributes under stress. The way for a fighter of Taylor's style to offset Pavlik is to put more weight on his back foot, draw Pavlik in, use a powerful, but judicious, disciplined, and educated jab while being cognizant of counters, and put his punches together in smooth, cerebral combinations. Pavlik is dangerous, and should be treated accordingly.

One of the other key issues in this fight is intangibles. This is a fairly complex issue. Pavlik is obviously hungry, but the media is more pro-Pavlik, so it puts Taylor into a position where goes into the fight with something to prove, almost as if he's an underdog. In that same vein, if Taylor loses, the fallout is extreme. It's as if he's been exposed, even though he fought well against Hopkins & Wright, two of the truly elite, top PFP fighters in the sport.

On the other side of the coin, despite a lot of support being thrown his way, Pavlik goes into the fight with myriad pressures. Pavlik, born and raised in tough, gritty, and eviscerated post-industrial Youngstown, often appears mature beyond his years. Nonetheless, to be sure, how will he respond to all of the big lights, big city pressure surrounding the "event" of a high profile world title fight? A recent article left me with some concerns. Here is the link:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

A few months ago, Ray Mancini stated that Pavlik should go away to camp for this fight, and for other big fights in the future. In my opinion, he's right.

Right now, I'd say intangibles slightly favor Taylor at this juncture. In reading and seeing interviews with Taylor, he looks and sounds extremely focused.

All in all, this is a great match-up. Here is a quick breakdown:

Hand and Foot Speed - Taylor
Power - Pavlik
Experience - Taylor
Stamina - Pavlik
Defense - Taylor
Heart - Even
Chin - Pavlik
Ring Generalship - Pavlik*
Intangibles - Taylor

Enjoy the fight.


*Regarding ring generalship, Pavlik has shown an ability to do a lot of subtle things to control the pace and tempo of both the ring and the fight. As noted, he might very well be a less reactive fighter than Taylor. He follows instructions and applies tactics and strategy well for a 25-year-old fighter who is mostly known as a puncher.


Excellent breakdown of fighters qualities. I agree with you on each point. However, I see Pavlik winning this one late by ko. I think hes hungrier and the bombs will eventually take a toll on Taylor and set him up for a crushing knockout loss in the late rounds. pavlik seems to be well conditioned and he carries his power late.

[box03]

I feel Pavlik is a little overrated, but I still think he will give Taylor a good fight. I see Pavlik trying to rough Taylor up early, I see Taylor sticking to the plan Manny set for him and winning by UD.

[brooklyn1550]

Zivic, great post! I too have wondered whether Pavlik can catch Taylor in the middle of his flurries.

[zivic1941]

It's certainly possible. At this point, with reference to fighters with big jabs, Taylor reminds me more of Carl "The Truth" Williams than Larry Holmes. Williams had a lot of talent, but tended to rely a lot on his physical gifts instead of thinking his way through things. In contrast, Holmes was a tough, educated, cerebral fighter.

[zivic1941]

Taylor HAS had his chin tested, Bernard bounced a series of right hands off of Jermain's chin. Not to mention Winky did a lot of accumulation punching against Jermain.

Pavlik's chin has been tested and found wanting, he's hit the canvas, has Taylor?

Only an idiot would put this fight down to who has the better chin.

This is the first time Taylor has fought a puncher. Bernard is a solid puncher, but not a big puncher. Moreover, Bernard's peak was between 1997-2001. The question regarding Pavlik is if he can get Taylor in position to land power shots.

[Orishaman]

I'm just thankful we don't have to see Trinidad labor through another drubbing. :happy

Here's some random thoughts:


As usual, HBO did an excellent job with their pre-fight countdown. They specifically concentrated on the fighters and their trainers, and illustrated the contrasts between both very well.

I don't know who is going to win this fight. A host of scenarios can play out. In my opinion, it's an excellent styles match-up. Taylor's superior speed and experience against elite opposition pitted against Pavlik's balls and power. If they're both on point and not too drained from making the weight, it's a great fight. Unlike his last two opponents, Taylor will be facing a straight-up orthodox fighter who has a fairly porous defense, but he's also facing the first real puncher in his career as well.

I think the best thing for Taylor to do in this fight is to establish respect early. Come out and use his speed advantage to nail Pavlik with big shots in the very first round. If not, Pavlik is in a position where he can get into a rhythm and bulldoze Taylor. Pavlik is known for early knockouts, but it's important to note that those knockouts were usually scored against vastly inferior opponents. If you look at Pavlik's past fights with his better and more recent opponents (Miranda, Zertuche, McKart, and Zuniga), he gets stronger as the rounds go by.

On the other side of the coin, Taylor presents some interesting problems for Pavlik. First, Taylor is actually more likely to hurt Pavlik than a puncher like Edison Miranda. Miranda was throwing a lot of big shots, but most of those shots were looping shots Pavlik could see. Taylor, because of his speed advantage (and if he's on point), has the ability to land crisp, hard, straight shots on Pavlik from angles Pavlik might not be able to see. That's the key. If Taylor can hurt Pavlik and surprise him with fast, blind shots with plenty of leverage and power, he can establish respect and use his superior speed to keep Pavlik at bay.

I'm not convinced, however, that it's going to happen. First, Pavlik's punching power is a major factor. Taylor has faced crafty, Hall of Fame opposition, but he's never faced a ranked knockout artist in his career. To add to the fray, even though I'm pretty sure Pavlik is a converted southpaw, he can end a fight with either hand at any time. He is the type of fighter who appears capable of catching a faster opponent in the middle of a flurry like Mike Weaver did against Carl Williams in the 1980s, and as Jorge Castro did against John David Jackson in the 1990s. When a speed-oriented fighter gets in a groove against a fighter they view as one dimensional, sometimes they become overconfident and neglect substantive defense, and end up as a knockout victim. That's a huge X factor in this fight.

Moreover, for a freakishly tall middleweight, Pavlik is a well-schooled infighter. As a corollary to what I mentioned above about Pavlik getting stronger as the rounds go by, Pavlik is a fighter who concentrates on the body with short, precise shots, and has shown a propensity to grind an opponent's body and intestinal fortitude up with accumulation, Once again, this is counter to the notion that he's an impatient puncher looking for the big shot. If Pavlik goes to the body as I expect him to, Taylor should counter to Pavlik's body in kind. At one time in his career, Taylor appeared to be developing into one of the most vicious body puncher's in the sport, but intriguingly, he's abandoned this tactic as his level of opposition has improved. It will be interesting to see how Taylor responds when Pavlik goes downstairs. Will he get on his bike as Pavlik has predicted, or surprise the lanky Pavlik with power shots to the body of his own?

Another interesting issue in this fight is the possible misnomer of Taylor's superior ring experience. At face value, Pavlik hasn't faced Taylor's level of opposition, but he can adapt in the ring better than most think. He follows instructions well. In watching Pavlik against Bronco McKart, I was impressed with his extraordinary patience against a cagey foe with a wealth of elite level experience. Pavlik was smart enough to know that McKart was a ringwise veteran who had never been knocked out. He knew it would take time to break him down. McKart eventually collapsed under the accumulation of well placed power shots, to both the body and the head.

Against power puncher Edison Miranda, Pavlik knew that Miranda possessed both heavy hands and heavy feet, and didn't have a reverse gear. When Pavlik forced Miranda to back up, it not only diminished a lot of Miranda's leverage, but the strategy also put Miranda under tremendous physical and psychological pressure, which caused Miranda to tire quickly. All told, Taylor has faced much better opposition than Pavlik, but Pavlik might actually be the less reactive fighter who thinks his way through a fight instead of defaulting to his physical attributes under stress. The way for a fighter of Taylor's style to offset Pavlik is to put more weight on his back foot, draw Pavlik in, use a powerful, but judicious, disciplined, and educated jab while being cognizant of counters, and put his punches together in smooth, cerebral combinations. Pavlik is dangerous, and should be treated accordingly.

One of the other key issues in this fight is intangibles. This is a fairly complex issue. Pavlik is obviously hungry, but the media is more pro-Pavlik, so it puts Taylor into a position where goes into the fight with something to prove, almost as if he's an underdog. In that same vein, if Taylor loses, the fallout is extreme. It's as if he's been exposed, even though he fought well against Hopkins & Wright, two of the truly elite, top PFP fighters in the sport.

On the other side of the coin, despite a lot of support being thrown his way, Pavlik goes into the fight with myriad pressures. Pavlik, born and raised in tough, gritty, and eviscerated post-industrial Youngstown, often appears mature beyond his years. Nonetheless, to be sure, how will he respond to all of the big lights, big city pressure surrounding the "event" of a high profile world title fight? A recent article left me with some concerns. Here is the link:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

A few months ago, Ray Mancini stated that Pavlik should go away to camp for this fight, and for other big fights in the future. In my opinion, he's right.

Right now, I'd say intangibles slightly favor Taylor at this juncture. In reading and seeing interviews with Taylor, he looks and sounds extremely focused.

All in all, this is a great match-up. Here is a quick breakdown:

Hand and Foot Speed - Taylor
Power - Pavlik
Experience - Taylor
Stamina - Pavlik
Defense - Taylor
Heart - Even
Chin - Pavlik
Ring Generalship - Pavlik*
Intangibles - Taylor

Enjoy the fight.


*Regarding ring generalship, Pavlik has shown an ability to do a lot of subtle things to control the pace and tempo of both the ring and the fight. As noted, he might very well be a less reactive fighter than Taylor. He follows instructions and applies tactics and strategy well for a 25-year-old fighter who is mostly known as a puncher.

Zivic as always right on the mark…but I am special intrigue by the “intangibles” which you favored Jermain and I have to agreed..I disagree with regarding stamina since Pavlik has only gone 8 rounds max and that is it….to lesser opposition. Jermain regardless if you like him or not, has an excellent stiff jab, that as you mentioned he will need to stablish early and keep pounding Pavliks right eye so potentially in the middle rounds Pavlik might have vision issues and Jermain can go to work, now that said and so well describe by you, Pavlik is dangerous and his power don’t seem to diminish and possibly could end the fight with a flurry as Jermain gets into a comfort zone that historically he enjoys in the middle rounds….

I will say that this fight could end up as Lacy vs. Calzaghe , and I am not saying that Jermain has the talent of Joe but that he could dominate Pavlik just as easy if Pavlik shows early to have problems with Jermain speed…….as Lacy did against Joe.

This fight also reminded me of Kid Pambele vs. Benitez were no one absolutely no one gave Benitez a chance , as it turn out he use his superior boxing skills to win a UD over a boxer that was deeply feared up to that point….roles reversal with Pavlik taking the place of Pambele and Jermain of Benitez even thou the experience is with Jermain…

[zivic1941]

Zivic, what you've missed quite blatantly is the level of competition in terms of ring smarts and defensive prowess.

Take a look at the fact that Taylor's last five fights have been against opponents that have not really racked up the knock out victories nor been knocked out themselves. Four of those fights were against defensive genius in the form of Hopkins, Wright and Spinks.

Ouma himself was a capable defender and all four fighters Taylor has faced are well educated, thoughtful boxers - not sluggers.

Taylor was able to negate some pretty difficult situations in those fights and come out with the Victory or Draw.

Against Pavlik, a guy who is a slugger, a guy who has shown he's infinitely counterable and a guy that hasn't had any near the battle testing - you'll see a more cerebral look to Taylorr's.

Hard to be a cerebral assassin against the Winky's, Spinks and Hopkin's of the world.

Re-read the post.

[Orishaman]

It's certainly possible. At this point, with reference to fighters with big jabs, Taylor reminds me more of Carl "The Truth" Williams than Larry Holmes. Williams had a lot of talent, but tended to rely a lot on his physical gifts instead of thinking his way through things. In contrast, Holmes was a tough, educated, cerebral fighter.

That Carl Williams like jab will be the key to victory IMO for Jermain...without a doubt...stiff jab on Pavliks right eye for 7 rounds....Pavlik will have vision problems...

[zivic1941]

Zivic as always right on the mark…but I am special intrigue by the “intangibles” which you favored Jermain and I have to agreed..I disagree with regarding stamina since Pavlik has only gone 8 rounds max and that is it….to lesser opposition. Jermain regardless if you like him or not, has an excellent stiff jab, that as you mentioned he will need to stablish early and keep pounding Pavliks right eye so potentially in the middle rounds Pavlik might have vision issues and Jermain can go to work, now that said and so well describe by you, Pavlik is dangerous and his power don’t seem to diminish and possibly could end the fight with a flurry as Jermain gets into a comfort zone that historically he enjoys in the middle rounds….

I will say that this fight could end up as Lacy vs. Calzaghe , and I am not saying that Jermain has the talent of Joe but that he could dominate Pavlik just as easy if Pavlik shows early to have problems with Jermain speed…….as Lacy did against Joe.

This fight also reminded me of Kid Pambele vs. Benitez were no one absolutely no one gave Benitez a chance , as it turn out he use his superior boxing skills to win a UD over a boxer that was deeply feared up to that point….roles reversal with Pavlik taking the place of Pambele and Jermain of Benitez even thou the experience is with Jermain…

Come out, get respect, and then lure Pavlik in. I think that's key. Putting extra weight on that back foot instead of leaning forward is very important as well. Gives him a better base of balance and makes him less vulnerable to Pavlik's right hand.

Pavlik can grind at a high punch output in a rough war. That 7 rounds against Miranda is more than equivalent to most 12 rounds fights. I think if Pavlik has any issue with stamina it might be related to weight drain---we'll see...both guys might have an issue there---or perhaps being a little tight under the bright lights of a major title fight. Taylor has been to the big dance, and should be comfortable mentally. As you know, Orish, sometimes being relaxed in that ring makes all the difference with stamina.

[mormeckflex]

My blood is boiling waiting for this fight!!!

[jsimps]

Pavlik's is under-rated whens it comes to working the body. I think could be a huge difference in slowing JT down. I could see KP classically working the body early, setting him up for a late KO. If Pavlik has gotten any better at slipping punches, JT is in trouble.

[Orishaman]

Come out, get respect, and then lure Pavlik in. I think that's key. Putting extra weight on that back foot instead of leaning forward is very important as well. Gives him a better base of balance and makes him less vulnerable to Pavlik's right hand.

Pavlik can grind at a high punch output in a rough war. That 7 rounds against Miranda is more than equivalent to most 12 rounds fights. I think if Pavlik has any issue with stamina it might be related to weight drain---we'll see...both guys might have an issue there---or perhaps being a little tight under the bright lights of a major title fight. Taylor has been to the big dance, and should be comfortable mentally. As you know, Orish, sometimes being relaxed in that ring makes all the difference with stamina.

Probably the most important advantage for Jermain, we all know how tight breading can be when you are not relax inside the ring!!:good

[zivic1941]

Pavlik is as proven a puncher as Taylor was before taking six fights in a row against awkward competition. Taylor was seen as a beast who could KO anyone.

Now, you've got Tarver, considered to have a good set of 175 whiskers, Hopkins skips up 15 pounds and puts him on the canvas with ONE right hand.

You're telling me B-Hop doesn't have great punching power? Power is the last attribute to go in a fighter

Pavlik has fought largely untested opponents, the fact that Miranda was being wobbled and rocked by a guy with a broken jaw a few fights previous states that Miranda himself didn't have the best set of whiskers.

Pavlik hasn't proved anything yet. He's more hype than Lacy, at least Lacy proved his punching power against notable opponents like Reid, Vanderpool, Pemberton, etc.

No. Hopkins is not a big puncher at all....especially late in his career. The shot he got Tarver with was a balance shot where Hopkins got Tarver's feet in the perfect position to knock him down. Bernard has always been smart, but he's become more of a thinking man's fighter as he's gotten older.

Pavlik is a dangerous fighter because of his power, but he's a much less reactive fighter than Jeff Lacy. He can adapt in the ring, and do different things.

[zivic1941]

Probably the most important advantage for Jermain, we all know how tight breading can be when you are not relax inside the ring!!:good

Duran, Archie Moore....examples of guys who were super relaxed. Relaxed, set traps, and wore younger fighters down with their mind instead of their conditioning.

[zivic1941]

Pavlik's is under-rated whens it comes to working the body. I think could be a huge difference in slowing JT down. I could see KP classically working the body early, setting him up for a late KO. If Pavlik has gotten any better at slipping punches, JT is in trouble.

He works the body real nice. However, I'm intrigued as to how he'll react if Taylor goes to his body. When he decides to be, Taylor is a superb body puncher. That's what I liked a lot about him when he was coming up the ranks.

[Zakman]

Taylor HAS had his chin tested, Bernard bounced a series of right hands off of Jermain's chin. Not to mention Winky did a lot of accumulation punching against Jermain.

Oh, yeah, and Bernard Hopkins and Winky Wright are among the hardest P4P hitters around, right?? Jeez, Wright wasn't even a hard-hitter at junior middleweight! :patsch

Taylor was rocked by Hopkins, and buzzed by Wright and Cory Spinks. Pavlik is going to show just HOW shaky this guy's chin is!! :yep

[jsimps]

Avg opponents ok, but he has destroyed those avg opponents.

[Zakman]

Pavlik is just some kid who has an 0 to lose. And trust me, the 0 goes this fight.

In order to come up with this conclusion, you have to excuse all of Taylor's many deficiencies, and ignore that he hasn't won a fight against a legitimate middleweight without the benefit of an HBO gift decision, and that he can't even knock out shaky-chinned welterweights like Cory Spinks!!

Pavlik is gonna spark this HBO hype job early - VERY early! :yep

[zivic1941]

Pavlik is being over-rated left right and centre. For you to state that Hopkin's isn't a big puncher discredits you in my eyes because although Hopkins was less aggressive in his later years, he always had punching power.

Remaining the only person to stop De La Hoya, for one - with a body shot of all things.

"Oh but De La Hoya was just a blown up Welterweight" - blah blah blah.

Hopkins has above average power, especially when he sits down on that right hand and he did - several times, putting Taylor on his heels but never once having Taylor on queer street.

Pavlik in the meanwhile, has LOOKED to have tremendous punching power but he hasn't been in with a high quality opponent yet. I'm expecting him to land his right hand on Taylor and be disheartened when it doesn't cause the damage he's expecting it to cause.

Taylor's pucnhing power is under-rated in this fight also, just because Taylor hasn't knocked out his last five opponents doesn't mean he hasn't forgotten how - too little has been placed on how good defensively each of those fighters were.

Lacy is a far better prospect than Pavlik - more power, explosiveness, more of a chin, less open to being countered. Lacy got beaten by a guy that was in 100% top form, a guy that could potentially be one of the toughest H2H fighters of the last twenty years.

Lacy moves better, has better punch output and has beaten the better opponents when compared to Pavlik

Pavlik is just some kid who has an 0 to lose. And trust me, the 0 goes this fight.

Once again, re-read the post. As stated, Taylor actually has a better chance of hurting Pavlik than a puncher like Miranda because of the styles mesh.

If you think Bernard is a big puncher, god bless you. Bernard has stated himself that he's not a puncher. He sets traps, lures a fighter in, applies cumulative punishment, and usually wins a decision. Since Tito, his record is : 8-2-0 with 3 KOs. If you want to see Bernard as a puncher, go back to his earlier days.

[Zakman]

Hope you're ready for your avatar when you get proven wrong. Your chin checking abilities are bullshit, picking established weak chins as china chins doesn't take effort

You're so far wrong with Taylor that it's laughable. I do hope you drop the "Chin Checker" moniker after this fight.

When Taylor gets knocked cold, are you going to start honoring my chin-checking abilities, or suggest that he had an "established" glass jaw - when it was people like me who established it LONG before any of you other blind mice caught on, just like with Fraudley??:lol:

[Executioner]

Pavlik is hype, no more power than Hopkins.. just wait and see.

are you fucking nuts? Pavlik hits WAYY fucking harder than Bernard right now :patsch

[Zakman]

What you and Hamsterdam Sigfried have done, is look solely at the deficiencies and none of the qualities of a Jermain Taylor.

You can talk about a legitimate middleweight but is there any doubt that if Cory Spinks campaigned at Middleweight he'd be Top 10? Is there any doubt that if Winky Wright campaigned at Middleweight, he'd be Top 5?

Maybe doubt in your mind, but then you're all about exaggeration.

Go have a look at how many 12 rounder fights that Hopkins, Winky, Ouma and Spinks have had... they're not fighters who score knock outs and they're not fighters who get knocked out.

Meanwhile, Pavlik's been fighting crude average fighters - well hell, before Hopkins, Taylor has 17ko's in 20 fights didn't he?


So lighter weight name fighters like Spinks or Wright could get ratings - it doesn't make them legitimate middleweights OR particularly give them punching power at that weight. This is even more the case when you consider that they weren't punchers at the lighter weights either!!:patsch Oh, and you might say that Hopkins and Wright are fighters who don't get knocked out, but you SURE can't say that about Cory Spinks!!:lol:


And sure Taylor can score knockouts against the usual tomato cans and journeymen. Pavlik, on the other hand, HAS knocked out a rated fighter, and in impressive fashion, too. He will make short work of your HBO hype job, count on it. :yep

[Zakman]

Bernard isn't a puncher - he's a boxer with a big punch. That right hand would drop most legitimate middleweights, it dropped Tarver, balance or not.

Miranda's punching power and accuracy was so over-rated it isn't funny, he couldn't finish a guy with a broken jaw, had he even landed a good ten punches on that jaw during the fight, the fight was over.

Pavlik is hype, no more power than Hopkins.. just wait and see.

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

Now you have just demonstrated how utterly ridiculous your perspective on this fight is. Let's see - Hopkins is a puncher, Kelly Pavlik isn't.......:nut

Guess you just started following boxing, huh???:lol::lol:

[BITCH ASS]

Zivic, what you've missed quite blatantly is the level of competition in terms of ring smarts and defensive prowess.

Take a look at the fact that Taylor's last five fights have been against opponents that have not really racked up the knock out victories nor been knocked out themselves. Four of those fights were against defensive genius in the form of Hopkins, Wright and Spinks.

Ouma himself was a capable defender and all four fighters Taylor has faced are well educated, thoughtful boxers - not sluggers.

Taylor was able to negate some pretty difficult situations in those fights and come out with the Victory or Draw.

Against Pavlik, a guy who is a slugger, a guy who has shown he's infinitely counterable and a guy that hasn't had any near the battle testing - you'll see a more cerebral look to Taylorr's.

Hard to be a cerebral assassin against the Winky's, Spinks and Hopkin's of the world.

From what I've seen, based on his performances, and his speeches, Pavlik is incredibly intelligent.

[BITCH ASS]

Pavlik is being over-rated left right and centre. For you to state that Hopkin's isn't a big puncher discredits you in my eyes because although Hopkins was less aggressive in his later years, he always had punching power.

Remaining the only person to stop De La Hoya, for one - with a body shot of all things.

"Oh but De La Hoya was just a blown up Welterweight" - blah blah blah.

Hopkins has above average power, especially when he sits down on that right hand and he did - several times, putting Taylor on his heels but never once having Taylor on queer street.

Pavlik in the meanwhile, has LOOKED to have tremendous punching power but he hasn't been in with a high quality opponent yet. I'm expecting him to land his right hand on Taylor and be disheartened when it doesn't cause the damage he's expecting it to cause.

Taylor's pucnhing power is under-rated in this fight also, just because Taylor hasn't knocked out his last five opponents doesn't mean he hasn't forgotten how - too little has been placed on how good defensively each of those fighters were.

Lacy is a far better prospect than Pavlik - more power, explosiveness, more of a chin, less open to being countered. Lacy got beaten by a guy that was in 100% top form, a guy that could potentially be one of the toughest H2H fighters of the last twenty years.

Lacy moves better, has better punch output and has beaten the better opponents when compared to Pavlik

Pavlik is just some kid who has an 0 to lose. And trust me, the 0 goes this fight.

Lacy, a guy that is short, not even in the same league as far as power is concerned, and does NOT throw as many punches as Pavlik and is limited to a one dimensional attack based on the inside is a better prospect?

Okay..........

[BITCH ASS]

He works the body real nice. However, I'm intrigued as to how he'll react if Taylor goes to his body. When he decides to be, Taylor is a superb body puncher. That's what I liked a lot about him when he was coming up the ranks.

It's really difficult to land cleanly to Pavlik's body. He has unusually long forearms.

I noticed this when he was fighting Zertuche.

[BITCH ASS]

Lacy is 5'10 - for a MW/SMW - that isn't short, he just faced a 6'1 Joe Calzaghe and was made to look short.

Stop rating Lacy based on one performance, go look at his run to the title and the types of opponents he dominated, you close minded fuck.

Doesn't matter, we're talking about prospects and Lacy is limited.

Lacy is an inside fighter, with adequete headmovement, a good chin, UNDERRATED toughness, a decent workrate, with above average power.

Pavlik can box almost as well or just as well as Kessler who only looks good because of the quality of his opposition, not in the same league as Taylor, probably more power than any Supermiddleweight, has a complete aresnal, (can hurt you with either hand and throws in combinations), throws 80 punches a round, and has a great chin.

Not to mention, he's tall and rangy, and very difficult to land cleanly on his body.

So, how is Lacy a better prospect?

Head to head, Pavlik would probably KO Lacy. And I understand Lacy is not in top form, but even a pre-Calzaghe Lacy would likely get Koed.

[zivic1941]

So lighter weight name fighters like Spinks or Wright could get ratings - it doesn't make them legitimate middleweights OR particularly give them punching power at that weight. This is even more the case when you consider that they weren't punchers at the lighter weights either!!:patsch Oh, and you might say that Hopkins and Wright are fighters who don't get knocked out, but you SURE can't say that about Cory Spinks!!:lol:


And sure Taylor can score knockouts against the usual tomato cans and journeymen. Pavlik, on the other hand, HAS knocked out a rated fighter, and in impressive fashion, too. He will make short work of your HBO hype job, count on it. :yep

Taylor had a padded record before he fought Hopkins, but he did fight well. Boxing history is full of examples of guys who jumped waaaay up in competition and scored the big win. On the other hand, there are those who don't pass the test.

The issue with Jermain Taylor is HBO, Lou DiBella, and the culture surrounding the superstar. HBO hyped him too much, so when he didn't have good performances, it was only natural for folks to criticize him. Additionally, Lou DiBella made Hopkins - Taylor seem more about DiBella- Hopkins than about his own fighter. It cast a unnecessarily negative light on his fighter. Moreover, people really want an American stand-out star in the sport...someone like Ali, Leonard, etc. When the built-up, would be superstar suddenly appears to be something less, the press nails it to them disproportionately.

On valid criticisms, Taylor did face difficult southpaws in Ouma and Spinks, and truthfully, he didn't fight those guys smart. He was very reactive. He appeared to regress. Not being able to solve those guys is like a hyped baseball player not being able to hit the curve. It happens, but with Spinks and Ouma, let's just say they're not Joe Calzaghe. Neither of those guys is a big puncher, neither is as crafty as Winky Wright either, so why not just rip their body round after round---walk through them--- until they can't take it anymore? He just didn't fight well.

On Hopkins & Wright, I give Taylor a lot of credit. I think Taylor - Wright was the best middleweight fight in years. Great action...regardless of some of Taylor's technical deficiencies. It was a very close fight. I gave Winky a slight edge, but not by much. With Hopkins, what we learned is that Bernard probably should've stepped up to 168 or 175 a little earlier. He was stiffer and slower against Eastman earlier that year than I'd ever seen him, and DiBella and his team saw that it was time to take a shot at the 40-year-old. Both of those fights were very close, and considering that Taylor hadn't really fought anyone who was a major threat, and gave Hopkins all sorts of problems with his speed and his jab, he should be given a lot of respect.

What Taylor faces now in this stage of his career is the biggest puncher he's ever faced. I don't think Pavlik is on a par with someone like Cyclone Hart, or even the middleweight version of Hearns, but he can punch extremely hard with both hands, and is a big threat in that regard.

[zivic1941]

It's really difficult to land cleanly to Pavlik's body. He has unusually long forearms.

I noticed this when he was fighting Zertuche.

He's gotta keep his elbows tucked in. Taylor is more educated on body work than Zertuche.

[BITCH ASS]

He's gotta keep his elbows tucked in. Taylor is more educated on body work than Zertuche.

Yeah, but he's taller too.

Pavlik might be slow in comparison to Taylor, but he ain't that slow.

[zivic1941]

Lacy, a guy that is short, not even in the same league as far as power is concerned, and does NOT throw as many punches as Pavlik and is limited to a one dimensional attack based on the inside is a better prospect?

Okay..........

You're right about this. Look at how Pavlik fought McKart, and then look at how he fought Miranda. At first glance, due to McKart's definite lack of power, one would think a puncher like Pavlik would just go to him and rip shots until it was over. Rather, Pavlik mixed up his attack to the body and the head, and wore him down patiently. He knew McKart had an excellent chin, and was very crafty.

With Miranda, he fought super intelligently. Pavlik has better basic boxing skills than Miranda, which at face value would lead one to believe that Pavlik would box him. No....he knew Miranda could not fight well going backwards, so he got him on his heels where Miranda would not be able to generate the kind of leverage we were accustomed to seeing from him, and that kind of attack will also wear a fighter like Miranda down twice as fast.

These are examples of strategy and ring generalship we didn't see from a pure puncher like Lacy.

[zivic1941]

Yeah, but he's taller too.

Pavlik might be slow in comparison to Taylor, but he ain't that slow.
He is. You're correct. It harder to land body shots against a taller fighter, especially if Pavlik decides to hike those trunks up a bit. Hopkins was always a good body puncher, but remember the problems when he fought 6'2" Keith Holmes (who had those trunks way too high). Still, the body attack Taylor might employ is at a different level than others Pavlik has faced.

Taylor does have a speed advantage, as he does against just about anyone. Pavlik is not glacier slow by any stretch of the imagination. He has decent speed. However, Taylor is just the faster guy.

[Zakman]

Taylor had a padded record before he fought Hopkins, but he did fight well. Boxing history is full of examples of guys who jumped waaaay up in competition and scored the big win. On the other hand, there are those who don't pass the test.

The issue with Jermain Taylor is HBO, Lou DiBella, and the culture surrounding the superstar. HBO hyped him too much, so when he didn't have good performances, it was only natural for folks to criticize him. Additionally, Lou DiBella made Hopkins - Taylor seem more about DiBella- Hopkins than about his own fighter. It cast a unnecessarily negative light on his fighter. Moreover, people really want an American stand-out star in the sport...someone like Ali, Leonard, etc. When the built-up, would be superstar suddenly appears to be something less, the press nails it to them disproportionately.

On valid criticisms, Taylor did face difficult southpaws in Ouma and Spinks, and truthfully, he didn't fight those guys smart. He was very reactive. He appeared to regress. Not being able to solve those guys is like a hyped baseball player not being able to hit the curve. It happens, but with Spinks and Ouma, let's just say they're not Joe Calzaghe. Neither of those guys is a big puncher, neither is as crafty as Winky Wright either, so why not just rip their body round after round---walk through them--- until they can't take it anymore? He just didn't fight well.

On Hopkins & Wright, I give Taylor a lot of credit. I think Taylor - Wright was the best middleweight fight in years. Great action...regardless of some of Taylor's technical deficiencies. It was a very close fight. I gave Winky a slight edge, but not by much. With Hopkins, what we learned is that Bernard probably should've stepped up to 168 or 175 a little earlier. He was stiffer and slower against Eastman earlier that year than I'd ever seen him, and DiBella and his team saw that it was time to take a shot at the 40-year-old. Both of those fights were very close, and considering that Taylor hadn't really fought anyone who was a major threat, and gave Hopkins all sorts of problems with his speed and his jab, he should be given a lot of respect.

What Taylor faces now in this stage of his career is the biggest puncher he's ever faced. I don't think Pavlik is on a par with someone like Cyclone Hart, or even the middleweight version of Hearns, but he can punch extremely hard with both hands, and is a big threat in that regard.

Excellent post - you cover the background to why many of us object to Taylor's rise to prominence quite well. There is something wrong with hyped Olympic fighters getting these breaks and advantages, while hard working fighters like Hopkins have to fight the boxing establishment every step of the way, and then have their titles taken as a result of this corruption.

I think the fight with Pavlik will turn more one-sided than you and many others imagine. I really think DiBella has been protecting him since he "won" the title. Wright's a great fighter, yes, but he was fighting above his natural weight - as were Ouma and Spinks. And NONE of them was a heavy-hitter, even at the weight classes they moved up from.

That leads me to believe that DiBella knows something about Taylor's ability to take a punch that we have been, up to now, only able to speculate on. Saturday will indeed provide an answer to this question.

[zivic1941]

Excellent post - you cover the background to why many of us object to Taylor's rise to prominence quite well. There is something wrong with hyped Olympic fighters getting these breaks and advantages, while hard working fighters like Hopkins have to fight the boxing establishment every step of the way, and then have their titles taken as a result of this corruption.

I think the fight with Pavlik will turn more one-sided than you and many others imagine. I really think DiBella has been protecting him since he "won" the title. Wright's a great fighter, yes, but he was fighting above his natural weight - as were Ouma and Spinks. And NONE of them was a heavy-hitter, even at the weight classes they moved up from.

That leads me to believe that DiBella knows something about Taylor's ability to take a punch that we have been, up to now, only able to speculate on. Saturday will indeed provide an answer to this question.

I tend to agree with you on the point about Taylor being steered from punchers during his career until this point. What many forget is that Taylor's camp had a choice of facing Miranda or Spinks, and they chose Spinks. With Pavlik the mandatory, all of those questions are now forced to answered.

I'm still on the fence about this fight, however. What I'm really hoping for is what too many in the press haven't mentioned: An incredibly hard fought, ebb and flow, close action fight that goes the distance, where either guy can legitimately be deemed the winner, and creates a rematch at 168 (that's the rematch clause if Pavlik wins). Not a bogus decision, but a close decision many will disagree on.

Nonetheless, I think we're going to see a stoppage either way within 8 rounds. Maybe like a Hagler - Hearns or Matthew Saad Muhammad - Marvin Johnson 2. Some feel this could be like Holmes - Cooney or Hopkins - Trinidad....and if Taylor can box like that, it's possible...although he hasn't shown that lately.

Lots of scenarios.....

I like both Pavlik and Taylor....they're both good people who represent the sport in a positive light. May the best man win.

[pipe wrenched]

Taylor had a padded record before he fought Hopkins, but he did fight well. Boxing history is full of examples of guys who jumped waaaay up in competition and scored the big win. On the other hand, there are those who don't pass the test.

The issue with Jermain Taylor is HBO, Lou DiBella, and the culture surrounding the superstar. HBO hyped him too much, so when he didn't have good performances, it was only natural for folks to criticize him. Additionally, Lou DiBella made Hopkins - Taylor seem more about DiBella- Hopkins than about his own fighter. It cast a unnecessarily negative light on his fighter. Moreover, people really want an American stand-out star in the sport...someone like Ali, Leonard, etc. When the built-up, would be superstar suddenly appears to be something less, the press nails it to them disproportionately.

On valid criticisms, Taylor did face difficult southpaws in Ouma and Spinks, and truthfully, he didn't fight those guys smart. He was very reactive. He appeared to regress. Not being able to solve those guys is like a hyped baseball player not being able to hit the curve. It happens, but with Spinks and Ouma, let's just say they're not Joe Calzaghe. Neither of those guys is a big puncher, neither is as crafty as Winky Wright either, so why not just rip their body round after round---walk through them--- until they can't take it anymore? He just didn't fight well.

On Hopkins & Wright, I give Taylor a lot of credit. I think Taylor - Wright was the best middleweight fight in years. Great action...regardless of some of Taylor's technical deficiencies. It was a very close fight. I gave Winky a slight edge, but not by much. With Hopkins, what we learned is that Bernard probably should've stepped up to 168 or 175 a little earlier. He was stiffer and slower against Eastman earlier that year than I'd ever seen him, and DiBella and his team saw that it was time to take a shot at the 40-year-old. Both of those fights were very close, and considering that Taylor hadn't really fought anyone who was a major threat, and gave Hopkins all sorts of problems with his speed and his jab, he should be given a lot of respect.

What Taylor faces now in this stage of his career is the biggest puncher he's ever faced. I don't think Pavlik is on a par with someone like Cyclone Hart, or even the middleweight version of Hearns, but he can punch extremely hard with both hands, and is a big threat in that regard.

Damn, that's a hell of a good post.

[BITCH ASS]

I can't believe how wrong all of you have gotten your analysis here so I'll just state it in firm fact

This fight will NOT be close.
Taylor will win comfortably, probably by a KO or a decisive decision
Pavlik would have NO chance against Lacy, also.

Uh, how would Lacy beat Pavlik then, tough guy?

Lacy might be done for all we know, and a guy like that who is FORCED to fight on the inside will be slaughtered by a guy that punches like Pavlik.

Everytime Lacy comes in, who comes relatively mechanically, he'll risk the chance of being hammered by a right hand.

Not only that, but Pavlik would be able to outbox Lacy as well.

So, uh, what are you talking about?

[Zakman]

I can't believe how wrong all of you have gotten your analysis here so I'll just state it in firm fact

This fight will NOT be close.
Taylor will win comfortably, probably by a KO or a decisive decision
Pavlik would have NO chance against Lacy, also.

Keep dreamin' kid. When Taylor gets laid out cold Saturday, we'll have a whole casserole dish of crow in the oven just for you!!!:yep

[BITCH ASS]

Keep dreamin' kid. When Taylor gets laid out cold Saturday, we'll have a whole casserole dish of crow in the oven just for you!!!:yep

He just likes to hype up Calzaghe.

[tpuz]

Does anyone know who the ref is going to be?

[Orishaman]

Bernard isn't a puncher - he's a boxer with a big punch. That right hand would drop most legitimate middleweights, it dropped Tarver, balance or not.

Miranda's punching power and accuracy was so over-rated it isn't funny, he couldn't finish a guy with a broken jaw, had he even landed a good ten punches on that jaw during the fight, the fight was over.

Pavlik is hype, no more power than Hopkins.. just wait and see.

Zivic is simple, Pavlik swiss cheese defense will be there for the more accurate, faster jabs from Jermain, Jermain is and punches from angles this along with the swiss cheese defense is the main reason Jermain connection % and chances to hurt Pavlik are far more favorable than Miranda's " barra e' campo" style....

Now that said....is not like Jermain wil not be a bit nervous to taste Pavlik power...I said to Zivic on phones conversation before, I said here and I said it again...Lou Dibella steered Jermain away from punchers for his entired career..this might be a test that "possibly" Jermain want to make peace with himself that he can beat a hard puncher....

[Orishaman]

At this point I will say this, after looking at the weight-in fotos Pavlik looks dry up to me, I hope that this is nto the case because if he is dried and drain to make weight and on top he get caught by the limelite of the fight he will be uptight mess and his stamina will suffer substantially

[Raging B(_)LL]

I believe Pavlik will win inside the distance tonight, and most likely before the 10th round. Pavlik has been in with bigger punchers and fighters than Taylor has, and he took the best they had to offer and knocked them out. I am aware however that bigger puncher does not necessarily mean better fighter, but then again who did Taylor fight before he got his title shot?

I have read many comments from posters claiming that Pavliks lack of quality opposition coming into this bout will be a big factor in this fight, but I disagree. Taylor faced an old and over the hill Joppy and Marquez, and a C-level fighter at best in Edouard before getting his shot at Hopkins.... not exactly a who`s who of the middleweight divsion now is it.

So in that vein I do not think that Pavlik`s lack of top flight opposition will be a major factor. Taylor doesn`t hit harder than some of Pavlik`s previous opponents such as Fulgencio Zuniga, Jose Luis Zertuche and Miranda all three of whom are harder punches than anyone Taylor has faced in his entire career. Kelly ground them down and stopped them all and took the best they had to offer, and I don`t believe Taylor hits harder than either of those fighters and he will not be able to discourage Kelly from coming to him to get his own pound of flesh in.

Also, Taylor`s habit of backing himself into the ropes by anyone who consistantly applys pressure and cuts the ring off effectively on him will be his downfall in this fight. If smaller fighters such as Wright and Ouma could back Taylor into the ropes and corners on a fairly regular basis, I don`t see why a stronger and bigger fighter in Pavlik wouldn`t be able to do it and keep it up for longer. I am convinced Pavlik woud have stopped Ouma and Spinks had they fought, and might have well beaten Wright if given the chance.

Pavlik is the hungrier and tougher fighter of the two, as well as the harder puncher, and as Zivic said in his detailed breakdown of the fight (excellent read BTW) Kelly is an adaptable fighter who can change his strategy accordingly depending on what his opponent presents in the ring. Those attributes will in my opinion be the deciding factor in this bout, as I think Taylor will fold under the pressure and he does not have the power to keep Pavlik off him.

Taylor is no slouch by any means however and is coming into the fight with something to prove as the criticism of his last few fights has clearly affected him. But I fail to see how he is going to to be able to keep Pavlik off of him or down & I can see Kelly catching Taylor and hurting him badly. Pavlik is the greener fighter of the two but this is not a fight in which Taylor`s natural athleticism will bail him out as it did against smaller fighters in the past.

Pavlik will not allow this to be a posing match and he WILL force Taylor to stand and fight, and that is when Taylor will get hurt. Jermaine has never been the most fleetfooted of fighters and he isn`t suddenly going to turn into SRR and bounce around on his toes and dance out of harm`s way... he will be there for Pavlik to hit. Other than being reasonably quick and possessing a nice jab, Taylor is not all that above average and his habit of keeping his left hand at waist level might very well see him getting nailed by Kelly`s right repeatedly.

He has made his paydays from fighting champs that are over the hill and smaller fighters moving up in weight who were never known as punchers, not by fighting young lions like himself.I also believe HBO is hoping for a Pavlik win, as he is far more marketable than Taylor who I believe has fallen out of favour with the network due to his recent performances. Pavlik is a pressure fighter who can punch like nobody`s business, makes for good fights and is white which is marketing gold for HBO. Should this fight go to the cards, I would expect Pavlik to get the decision.

Just my 0.02$

[Drew101]

I believe Pavlik will win inside the distance tonight, and most likely before the 10th round. Pavlik has been in with bigger punchers and fighters than Taylor has, and he took the best they had to offer and knocked them out. I am aware however that bigger puncher does not necessarily mean better fighter, but then again who did Taylor fight before he got his title shot?

I have read many comments from posters claiming that Pavliks lack of quality opposition coming into this bout will be a big factor in this fight, but I disagree. Taylor faced an old and over the hill Joppy and Marquez, and a C-level fighter at best in Edouard before getting his shot at Hopkins.... not exactly a who`s who of the middleweight divsion now is it.

So in that vein I do not think that Pavlik`s lack of top flight opposition will be a major factor. Taylor doesn`t hit harder than some of Pavlik`s previous opponents such as Fulgencio Zuniga, Jose Luis Zertuche and Miranda all three of whom are harder punches than anyone Taylor has faced in his entire career. Kelly ground them down and stopped them all and took the best they had to offer, and I don`t believe Taylor hits harder than either of those fighters and he will not be able to discourage Kelly from coming to him to get his own pound of flesh in.

Also, Taylor`s habit of backing himself into the ropes by anyone who consistantly applys pressure and cuts the ring off effectively on him will be his downfall in this fight. If smaller fighters such as Wright and Ouma could back Taylor into the ropes and corners on a fairly regular basis, I don`t see why a stronger and bigger fighter in Pavlik wouldn`t be able to do it and keep it up for longer. I am convinced Pavlik woud have stopped Ouma and Spinks had they fought, and might have well beaten Wright if given the chance.

Pavlik is the hungrier and tougher fighter of the two, as well as the harder puncher, and as Zivic said in his detailed breakdown of the fight (excellent read BTW) Kelly is an adaptable fighter who can change his strategy accordingly depending on what his opponent presents in the ring. Those attributes will in my opinion be the deciding factor in this bout, as I think Taylor will fold under the pressure and he does not have the power to keep Pavlik off him.

Taylor is no slouch by any means however and is coming into the fight with something to prove as the criticism of his last few fights has clearly affected him. But I fail to see how he is going to to be able to keep Pavlik off of him or down & I can see Kelly catching Taylor and hurting him badly. Pavlik is the greener fighter of the two but this is not a fight in which Taylor`s natural athleticism will bail him out as it did against smaller fighters in the past.

Pavlik will not allow this to be a posing match and he WILL force Taylor to stand and fight, and that is when Taylor will get hurt. Jermaine has never been the most fleetfooted of fighters and he isn`t suddenly going to turn into SRR and bounce around on his toes and dance out of harm`s way... he will be there for Pavlik to hit. Other than being reasonably quick and possessing a nice jab, Taylor is not all that above average and his habit of keeping his left hand at waist level might very well see him getting nailed by Kelly`s right repeatedly.

He has made his paydays from fighting champs that are over the hill and smaller fighters moving up in weight who were never known as punchers, not by fighting young lions like himself.I also believe HBO is hoping for a Pavlik win, as he is far more marketable than Taylor who I believe has fallen out of favour with the network due to his recent performances. Pavlik is a pressure fighter who can punch like nobody`s business, makes for good fights and is white which is marketing gold for HBO. Should this fight go to the cards, I would expect Pavlik to get the decision.

Just my 0.02$

And, my 0.02$ in response...

What makes me pick Taylor in the fight is the fact that, despite a couple of less than stellar performances against Ouma and Spinks, he still showed certain aspects of his game that make me think that he'll have success against Pavlik. Against Ouma, he was able to string together multi-punch combinations at various points in the fight, while against Spinks, he showed an improved defense, and did make pretty good use of the jab.

The problem in those fights was the fact that Taylor elected to box the boxer, and slug with the aggressive pressure fighter. However, unless Pavlik shocks the world, and shows me a skill-set that I haven't seen, I think he'll be relying upon a pressure-based, balls-to-the-wall attack in the hopes of getting JT out of there. Given his defensive liabilities, that's going to leave him open to the punches of Taylor, who possesses quicker fists, and an arsenal of punches that's as good (if not nearly as powerful) as his opponent's.

This is a fight where Taylor will be forced to box, rather than slug, and I think this will work to his advantage. I think he keeps his jab in Pavlik's face, opens up a couple of cuts, and, once he establishes that rythm, begins to find the range with his powerpunches, and scores a late stoppage.

Taylor may not look great against the absolute elite, or against guys who possess superior boxing skill. But, I just don't see Pavlik as elite, nor does his skill-set strike me as being top-tier.

When Taylor is in against the second tier, he usually dominates. I think he'll do so this time, as well.

[PR Boxing Lore]

Taylor will win an eay fight.

[mustang sally]

Hand and Foot Speed - Taylor


You have got to be kidding me.

Taylor has the worst footwork of any middleweight champion in recent history.

Pavlik throws more punches in better combinations so hand and foot speed - Pavlik

[mustang sally]

How would Lacy beat Pavlik? Did you see Lacy beat Reid? A far more accomplished boxer than Pavlik who had title reigns as well as competing with the very best in his division?



And about eight years removed from his prime by the time Lacy got to him

[Raging B(_)LL]

And, my 0.02$ in response...

What makes me pick Taylor in the fight is the fact that, despite a couple of less than stellar performances against Ouma and Spinks, he still showed certain aspects of his game that make me think that he'll have success against Pavlik. Against Ouma, he was able to string together multi-punch combinations at various points in the fight, while against Spinks, he showed an improved defense, and did make pretty good use of the jab.

The problem in those fights was the fact that Taylor elected to box the boxer, and slug with the aggressive pressure fighter. However, unless Pavlik shocks the world, and shows me a skill-set that I haven't seen, I think he'll be relying upon a pressure-based, balls-to-the-wall attack in the hopes of getting JT out of there. Given his defensive liabilities, that's going to leave him open to the punches of Taylor, who possesses quicker fists, and an arsenal of punches that's as good (if not nearly as powerful) as his opponent's.

This is a fight where Taylor will be forced to box, rather than slug, and I think this will work to his advantage. I think he keeps his jab in Pavlik's face, opens up a couple of cuts, and, once he establishes that rythm, begins to find the range with his powerpunches, and scores a late stoppage.

Taylor may not look great against the absolute elite, or against guys who possess superior boxing skill. But, I just don't see Pavlik as elite, nor does his skill-set strike me as being top-tier.

When Taylor is in against the second tier, he usually dominates. I think he'll do so this time, as well.

Hello Drew, how you been?

You make some salient points, but I disagree with a few of your assertions. First off I seriously doubt that Taylor has the power to really hurt Pavlik, let alone stop him. He landed everything but the kitchen sink on a natural jr. middleweight in Ouma, and could not even succeed in putting him down once or to seriously hurt him. Now if Taylor couldn`t hurt Ouma, how is he going to hurt and stop the bigger and stronger Pavlik?

I agree Pavlik will get hit, but he will be throwing all night as well and something big is bound to land on Taylor. Unfortunately for JT, for reasons we know all too well, he has absolutely no idea what getting hit flush by a genuine puncher feels like. Another thing to keep in mind is that I genuinely believe Taylor is cracking under the criticism. Remember the scene in Rocky II were Apollo is reading the hate mail from fans to his wife?

I think that is exactly the frame of mind Taylor is in. He`s the champ but everybody is questioning all of those close decisions he has had of late and the fact that he has been consistantly fighting naturally smaller fighters who couldn`t break an egg with their Sunday punch. He knows that if he runs from Pavlik, any respect he might have left goes straight out the window. He knows he needs to step up to the plate and make a statement, which is why I believe he will want to assert himself early on.

And that is exactly what will get him into trouble, as this is one fight were he would be best served to avoid any unnecessary exchanges and stay clear of Pavlik and box to decision behind his jab. He CAN do it, but I doubt he will be able to pull it off for a full 12 rounds, not against someone who will be forcing him to fight harder than he ever has before. And do not underestimate Pavlik`s own boxing ability, as he has a pretty decent jab and could also put together combinations very well when he takes his time.

I have seen almost a dozen Pavlik fights, and he is far from being a one-dimentional, plodding forward puncher looking for the big punch to end matters. He can box some and has the patience to set up his punches behind a jab, and he doesn`t always go for broke from the opening bell. He will fight that way and take some punches to get his own in if he feels his opponent doesn`t have the power to hurt him or durability to last long, but he can take his time as well which I believe he will do tonight.

He will stalk Taylor and look to corner him, and will go to the body early and often to set up a late rounds stoppage. He will be throwing plenty of leather and like I said in my previous post he won`t allow this to be a posing match as he will keep throwing with little concern of the incoming unlike most of Taylor`s previous opponents. Taylor is NOT a puncher, never was whereas Pavlik IS a genuine puncher who can take his man out with either hand, and land on and hurt Taylor he will.

If old man Hopkins could have Taylor do a little hula dance from one right hand, I am confident Pavlik will have him doing the horizontal shuffle eventually. And lastly, the one thing that really has me confidently picking Pavlik is Emmanuel Steward`s laughable comments of late. Steward is usually a man of few words before a fight, but this time he actually went on to say that even ATGs like both Sugar Ray`s and Marvin Hagler would have wanted no part of Taylor, and that he will flatten Pavlik.

Now, we are talking about the same Jermaine Taylor that drew and arguably lost to junior middleweight Winky Wright, had a much tougher time than anticipated with another smallish junior middle in Ouma who 5 months earlier was hammered all over the ring by limited Roman Karmazin, and sqeaked by welterweight Cory Spinks. Those comments are so out of character for someone like Steward to make that it just doesn`t ring true to me.

The only conclusion I can come to is that Steward is talking up Taylor so that he will actually believe he is not going to get a whipping tonight. It has never been Steward`s style to talk this kind of talk before a fight, which makes me believe that something about Taylor has caught his eye and he is trying his best to motivate Taylor anyway he can because he senses some self doubt within his charge. If Taylor has confidence issues going into tonights fight, its gonna be short night for Taylor.

He might come out guns blazing as he feels his back is against the wall, but it will be short lived once he feels what it is like to get hit by someone his own size who can punch like a mule`s kick and who will be looking to knock his head off from the opening bell to the last. And this might be an unpopular position but I will say it... I always believed that Taylor has a bit of a yellow streak in him, and if the going gets tough and he starts getting discouraged and hurt often he may well quit on his stool. I would not be shocked in the least if that happened, and if it does you heard it here first.

[zivic1941]

I can't believe how wrong all of you have gotten your analysis here so I'll just state it in firm fact

This fight will NOT be close.
Taylor will win comfortably, probably by a KO or a decisive decision
Pavlik would have NO chance against Lacy, also.

It's not good to be so brazen in a difficult styles match-up like this.

Pavlik TKO7

[Orishaman]

Plenty can be said about the match between Pavlik and Taylor, yet I believe that Saturday match will be a session of questions and answers. Both have many intangibles that will need to be answer and both will present new questions to each other.

For Taylor:


He never had his chin tested, and Pavlik will be the guy to tested. Well for the best part of 7 rounds JT look to be answering this question well, until the visicious right hand to the chin....then the answer became a resounding nope...

How vunerable Taylor will be to Pavlik’s strong overhead right hand.Well ...very vulnerable since it was a quasi-overhead right that conencted flush on his chin...

Will Taylor allowed Pavlik to be the aggressor.For the most part he didn't...he got respect from Pavlik right away..

Taylor’s heart has never been in question, but how he will react after getting hurt and in trouble, will he know what to do or his aggressiveness will his demises..His lack of experince was his demise, he didn;t react well at all facing trouble he back up to the corner in amaterish fashion and never recover...

For Pavlik:

1. Can he go 12th rounds with a MW Champion of the world.
Kelly look poised and with plenty left in the tank when the KO came...
2. Does Pavlik knows what he need to do win and beat the Champ.
Absolutely...getting him in trouble and finish with style
3. Pavlik experience, he will be in with the MW Champ of the world, can he be overwhelm.
Nope, he showed great poise...
4. How Pavlik will react if in trouble, again this is the MW Champ of the world.
He reacted well, he grab , grab and grab until the ref would break the clinch, and until he recover his legs....
5. Can he handle the strong jab from Taylor.
Taylor was winning the fight becuase his speed and jab breaking thru in the 4th round, and lets noit forget that the set up for the huge right hand was the jab, it was a classic 1-2

All these questions will be answer soon enough on Saturday…initially I gave the nod to Pavlik but after further review, this fight might be a lot closer than many expect..and Jermain might pull yet another squiker…

See the read script

[Raging B(_)LL]

HBO put on two terrific fights last night. Kudos to Kelly Pavlik, Jermaine Taylor, Andre Berto and David Estrada for making last night a memorable one.

Now to the fight itself, I was shocked to see how careless Pavlik got in the second round by dropping his hands and getting hit with shots he never should have taken. The punch that really did the damage before he got knocked down was a right hand behind Pavlik`s ear which affected his equilibrium, and then dropping his hands allowed Taylor to get in enough punches to put him down.

But the fact he got through that was amazing and showed tremendous determination, heart and conditioning. Taylor seemed to be doing better than he was given credit for on the air, although I had the fight 4-2 in favour of Pavlik going into the 7th. Pavlik used his jab and straight right effectively while going to the body well too. Kelly`s punches don`t look that great but they have a cumulative effect on his foes, he has that long skinny deceptive kind of strenght, much like Monzon did.

But Pavlik reminds me a lot more of Danny "Little Red" Lopez in that he is vulnerable to knockdowns early and takes a few rounds to get into his groove, but once he does it is only a matter of time until his opponents fold under his constant pressure and power. Like Danny he uses that jab-right cross combination very effectively and consistantly, and goes to the body with regularity to slow his man down. He really did a good job of keeping that jab in Taylor`s face by landing it solidly and regularly throughout the fight and backing him up with it.

Kelly does have some glaring flaws like Lopez did, but they will only be exploited by a fighter with a lot of lateral movement and speed and who has an excellent chin, like Sanchez did when he took the title from Danny. Pavlik, like Danny before him has the utmost confidence in himself and his ability to eventually track his man down and stop him, and he has the great conditioning to match. There is something to be said about a guy who can get up off the canvas to KO the other guy again & again... you can`t put a value on that kind of trust and confidence in yourself.

As for the stoppage, I do not understand how anyone in their right mind could say it wasn`t appropriate. At the very moment Smoger stepped in between the two fighters Jermaine appeared almost lifeless along the ropes. After Smoger finally got between them Taylor slid down along the ropes and collapsed in a heap with his hands by his sides, looking for all the world like a beaten and defenseless fighter.

If anything Smoger did Jermaine a huge favour by stepping in without a count, because if Taylor had somehow managed to rise from that KD which was highly unlikely, Pavlik would have been all over him and a few more concussive shots might well have knocked Taylor out cold. Smoger`s decision to stop it instead of issuing a count was the right call, and Taylor will be much better off health wise for it in the long run.

I will add that Taylor although he lost redeemed himself to an extent last night, as he fought with heart and guts galore, but he just didn`t have the durability to hang in there for the long haul against a banger like Pavlik. He may well rebound from this loss, but in the postfight interview he looked like a broken man both emotionally and physically, and perhaps from now on he may have lingering self-confidence issues. Time will tell on that front, but in the meantime lets enjoy a new middleweight era with a champion who comes to fight and comes to win and is prepared to do both in Kelly Pavlik.

[Orishaman]

I agreed up to a point, he fought valiently..but his limitations as askill boxers and his amateurish style finally caught up with him, he back up and got to a corner in a very inexperince move rather than hold on , hang grab Pavlik or simply taking a knee after he was clearly in trouble after the overhead right to the chin....after that his body broke down and said "I am done"