With respect to Hearns....

[BITCH ASS]

Pavlik is the greatest middleweight puncher Arum has ever seen.

After Pavlik takes out Taylor who is a VERY GOOD fighter, the statement I made when I called Pavlik the closest thing to Tommy Hearns since Tommy Hearns, will look pretty fuckin brilliant.

Taylor is hard as fuck and I see him controlling the first portion of the fight with his jab, keeping the fight in the center of the ring.

The thing that people don't seem to realize though is that Pavlik is multi-dimensional, and while I don't think he could beat Taylor by merely staying in the center of the ring, he could definitely hang with him and win some rounds.

What seperates him though from just an ordinary boxer or even a slugger that likes to keep volume punchers from pinning him against the ropes is that Pavlik can bang, box, and throw.

The guy is a multi-dimensional fighter. He's a boxer/slugger/volume puncher hybrid.

He averages about 80 punches a round, ranks as one of the hardest hitting middleweights in history in my opinion, and has the height and reach to keep his opponents on the outside.

Along with all that, at least based on his interviews and how he performs in the ring, he is a very smart fighter, with an incredibly underrated body attack, (which is actually what I think wore down Miranda, WEIGHT DRAIN EXCUSES aside).

So yeah, like I was saying, Taylor will be successful in the beggining of the fight by keeping the fight in the center of the ring, but eventually he's going to get hit.

And when he does the question is, how will Taylor react?

Personally I think Taylor is hard as fuck, so I think he'll go right at Pavlik. While Taylor could beat almost every other middleweight out there in a brawl, he can't beat Pavlik, no matter how hard he is.

Pavlik hits too hard, has a solid chin, and is just as determined as Taylor.

Pavlik by late rounds KO over a VERY GOOD, UNDERRATED, Jermaine Taylor.

[pipe wrenched]

:good

[Zakman]

Pavlik by late rounds KO over a VERY GOOD, UNDERRATED, Jermaine Taylor.
I agree with you that Pavlik will knock out Taylor - but Taylor is, if anything, overrated off his three gift decisions against Hopkins and Wright! And what's he done since except beat up on light-weight fighters who didn't hit hard enough to break an egg! :patsch

Pavlik is not only going to expose Taylor, he's gonna expose his shaky whiskers, too! There's a REASON he's been fighting light-hitters moving up from lower weights classes since Hopkins rocked him!:yep

[Executioner]

I see what you're doing

Calling Pavlik a great puncher, which he is, and building Taylor up to make it look better on Pav's resume..lol

[BITCH ASS]

I see what you're doing

Calling Pavlik a great puncher, which he is, and building Taylor up to make it look better on Pav's resume..lol

Why do I give a fuck about a fighter's resume?

Does that fighter pay me?

Does that fighter provide with bitches to fuck?

Is that fighter gonna pay for my bus fares?

I don't give a fuck about resumes. Do I look like a Floyd boy?

Anyway, this fight is gonna be SIZZLIN!

[FlatNose]

Good points by the thread creator.Now , I have doubts about my original choice, Taylor by stoppage.My new outlook is these guys are going to test each other severely.The winner will have to show hitherto unknown quality.I predict a solid showing by both fellas in a great fight, possibly one we'll be telling the grandkids about.

[Pimp C]

Kinda like Margo was the most feared man in boxing and now this shit what a hype job.:-(

[TBooze]

Pavlik is the greatest middleweight puncher Arum has ever seen.

After Pavlik takes out Taylor who is a VERY GOOD fighter, the statement I made when I called Pavlik the closest thing to Tommy Hearns since Tommy Hearns, will look pretty fuckin brilliant.


Comments like that show no respect for Hearns...

I do not know who is going to win the fight, but I do know neither Taylor no Pavlik are anywhere near accomplishing what The Motor City Cobra did. One beating the other will only bring the winner a step nearer being able to lick Tommy's boots.

[sues2nd]

One question.....and this thread is done.

HOW WOULD HEARNS LOOK AGAINST THE ZERTUCHES OF THE WORLD???









Thank you and goodnight....

[BITCH ASS]

Kinda like Margo was the most feared man in boxing and now this shit what a hype job.:-(

I still like Margo.

I would have loved to see how Floyd would react against a big, determined, relentless, volume punching welterweight with a punch and a great chin.

That is the perfect antidote for a guy that likes to keep the fight in the center of the ring, IF YOU CANNOT OUTBOX HIM.

Too bad Paul Williams came along though. The guy is a freak and while he throws 100 punches a round, I think his height, and reach, may allow him to outbox almost anyone, INCLUDING Floyd.

In fact, asside from power, which Paul Williams makes up for with speed and athleticism, Pavlik and Williams have a little bit in common.

Margarito isn't bad and would give anyone a run for their money in the welterweight division. I just didn't expect Paul Williams to be THAT GOOD.

You think Floyd can beat Paul Williams?

Because honestly, I would stay the HELL AWAY from that man more than ANY OTHER if I wanted to keep my record intact, if I was Floyd.

[BITCH ASS]

One question.....and this thread is done.

HOW WOULD HEARNS LOOK AGAINST THE ZERTUCHES OF THE WORLD???









Thank you and goodnight....

I don't know, would Hearns have knocked Zertuche out standing up?

And is your arrogant statement really that reasonable when you consider that Zertuche has NEVER ONCE been knocked down in his career?

And BTW, Pavlik did knock Zertuche the fuck out, so uh.....maybe you oughta explain yourself a little better.

Thank you and Goodnight.

[lillarry]

One question.....and this thread is done.

HOW WOULD HEARNS LOOK AGAINST THE ZERTUCHES OF THE WORLD???









Thank you and goodnight....
:good

[sues2nd]

I still like Margo.

I would have loved to see how Floyd would react against a big, determined, relentless, volume punching welterweight with a punch and a great chin.

That is the perfect antidote for a guy that likes to keep the fight in the center of the ring, IF YOU CANNOT OUTBOX HIM.

Too bad Paul Williams came along though. The guy is a freak and while he throws 100 punches a round, I think his height, and reach, may allow him to outbox almost anyone, INCLUDING Floyd.

In fact, asside from power, which Paul Williams makes up for with speed and athleticism, Pavlik and Williams have a little bit in common.

Margarito isn't bad and would give anyone a run for their money in the welterweight division. I just didn't expect Paul Williams to be THAT GOOD.

You think Floyd can beat Paul Williams?

Because honestly, I would stay the HELL AWAY from that man more than ANY OTHER if I wanted to keep my record intact, if I was Floyd.

Now THIS, I agree with TOTALLY. Williams could beat Floyd quite handily if you ask me.

Tho I think Floyd beats Margo.

[BITCH ASS]

Comments like that show no respect for Hearns...

I do not know who is going to win the fight, but I do know neither Taylor no Pavlik are anywhere near accomplishing what The Motor City Cobra did. One beating the other will only bring the winner a step nearer being able to lick Tommy's boots.

Fact is though, that nobody points out, Hearns lost every time he stepped up.

SRL, HAGLER, BARKLEY

So if you wanna play that game, let's play it.

[Pimp C]

I still like Margo.

I would have loved to see how Floyd would react against a big, determined, relentless, volume punching welterweight with a punch and a great chin.

That is the perfect antidote for a guy that likes to keep the fight in the center of the ring, IF YOU CANNOT OUTBOX HIM.

Too bad Paul Williams came along though. The guy is a freak and while he throws 100 punches a round, I think his height, and reach, may allow him to outbox almost anyone, INCLUDING Floyd.

In fact, asside from power, which Paul Williams makes up for with speed and athleticism, Pavlik and Williams have a little bit in common.

Margarito isn't bad and would give anyone a run for their money in the welterweight division. I just didn't expect Paul Williams to be THAT GOOD.

You think Floyd can beat Paul Williams?

Because honestly, I would stay the HELL AWAY from that man more than ANY OTHER if I wanted to keep my record intact, if I was Floyd.
To be honest with you Williams is a nightmare for PBF. His lenght southpaw stance, workrate and stamina would give PBF hell. I really don't see anyone fighting Williams at 147 other than Margo for revenge. He's just too risky and will have to move up to get big fights.

[sues2nd]

I don't know, would Hearns have knocked Zertuche out standing up?

And is your arrogant statement really that reasonable when you consider that Zertuche has NEVER ONCE been knocked down in his career?

And BTW, Pavlik did knock Zertuche the fuck out, so uh.....maybe you oughta explain yourself a little better.

Thank you and Goodnight.

Well, Zertuche, NEVER fought a fighter like Hearns. Hearns was a tremendous boxer, who just HAPPENED to have one of the hardest punches P4P in boxing. With his jab, accuracy and power, he would have put Zertuche to sleep.

Pavlik doesnt have anywhere NEAR the fundamentals that Tommy had. footwork, movement, accuracy....THAT JAB! He is lightyears ahead of Pavlik in this right.

I know it probably gets lost in the fact that I think Taylor will win on points...but I do think Pavlik is a good fighter. He has VERY good power in both hands, a good chin, tremendous output and stamina...but that is about it (tho that is ALOT and will take him far...dont take me too literally with the "thats about it" thing.).

But to compare him to a fighter who proved his mettle vs other ATGs (Hagler, SRL, Benitez, Duran....I could keep going) is getting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY ahead of yourself.

As good as Pavlik is in the strengths that he has, he is just as bad in his weaknesses.

[BITCH ASS]

To be honest with you Williams is a nightmare for PBF. His lenght southpaw stance, workrate and stamina would give PBF hell. I really don't see anyone fighting Williams at 147 other than Margo for revenge. He's just too risky and will have to move up to get big fights.

:good

You really think Pavlik is a hype job though?

You know, even if Taylor beats him, you have to respect the fact that Taylor is a very good fighter.

I'd still pick Pavlik to beat all the other middleweight and then put a massacre on the supermiddleweight division, save a few fighters.

[Executioner]

Well, Zertuche, NEVER fought a fighter like Hearns. Hearns was a tremendous boxer, who just HAPPENED to have one of the hardest punches P4P in boxing. With his jab, accuracy and power, he would have put Zertuche to sleep.

Pavlik doesnt have anywhere NEAR the fundamentals that Tommy had. footwork, movement, accuracy....THAT JAB! He is lightyears ahead of Pavlik in this right.

I know it probably gets lost in the fact that I think Taylor will win on points...but I do think Pavlik is a good fighter. He has VERY good power in both hands, a good chin, tremendous output and stamina...but that is about it (tho that is ALOT and will take him far...dont take me too literally with the "thats about it" thing.).

But to compare him to a fighter who proved his mettle vs other ATGs (Hagler, SRL, Benitez, Duran....I could keep going) is getting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY ahead of yourself.

As good as Pavlik is in the strengths that he has, he is just as bad in his weaknesses.

That is a good, modest assessement. Well said

[BITCH ASS]

Well, Zertuche, NEVER fought a fighter like Hearns. Hearns was a tremendous boxer, who just HAPPENED to have one of the hardest punches P4P in boxing. With his jab, accuracy and power, he would have put Zertuche to sleep.

Pavlik doesnt have anywhere NEAR the fundamentals that Tommy had. footwork, movement, accuracy....THAT JAB! He is lightyears ahead of Pavlik in this right.

I know it probably gets lost in the fact that I think Taylor will win on points...but I do think Pavlik is a good fighter. He has VERY good power in both hands, a good chin, tremendous output and stamina...but that is about it (tho that is ALOT and will take him far...dont take me too literally with the "thats about it" thing.).

But to compare him to a fighter who proved his mettle vs other ATGs (Hagler, SRL, Benitez, Duran....I could keep going) is getting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY ahead of yourself.

As good as Pavlik is in the strengths that he has, he is just as bad in his weaknesses.

IF Pavlik does beat Taylor and shows good boxing ability, will your opinion of him change?

BTW, against Zertuche, I too felt like Pavlik brawled too much and could have kept a flatfooted guy like that on the outside, took less punishment, and possibly won earlier.

It's hard to say though because Zertuche was determined as hell and took some monster punches to get inside.

[sues2nd]

:good

You really think Pavlik is a hype job though?

You know, even if Taylor beats him, you have to respect the fact that Taylor is a very good fighter.

I'd still pick Pavlik to beat all the other middleweight and then put a massacre on the supermiddleweight division, save a few fighters.

Again....this I agree with.

Pavlik is a good fighter...with some very good strengths...as well as some very big weaknesses. I think he is leaps and bounds above the other MWs not named Taylor. He IS the number 1 contender and deserves to be.

SMW, Calzaghe would point him by a wide margin...as would Kessler. I think he may have a good chance against many of the others.

But as much of a hype job he is not....he IS getting severly OVERRATED by many leading up to Sat.

[BITCH ASS]

Again....this I agree with.

Pavlik is a good fighter...with some very good strengths...as well as some very big weaknesses. I think he is leaps and bounds above the other MWs not named Taylor. He IS the number 1 contender and deserves to be.

SMW, Calzaghe would point him by a wide margin...as would Kessler. I think he may have a good chance against many of the others.

But as much of a hype job he is not....he IS getting severly OVERRATED by many leading up to Sat.

BTW, I don't say this to many people, but I do respect you as a poster.

[TBooze]

Fact is though, that nobody points out, Hearns lost every time he stepped up.

SRL, HAGLER, BARKLEY

So if you wanna play that game, let's play it.

OK then: Cuevas, Hill, Andries, Duran, Roldan, Schuler, Olijade, Benitez, Miller and Colbert...

All fighters who Tommy beat, who are on par or better than (as we speak) Pavlik.

[Boinko]

If this is an argument only about punching power, then the argument might hold more weight. It seems this has turned into an argument over whether Hearns was a better fighter than Pavlik, particularly at middleweight.
Even if Pavlik is a better puncher at middleweight (a questionable claim), he certainly isn't Tommy Hearns. As time goes by, we'll see how good he ends up being, but I'm not going to start mentioning those two in the same sentence yet. Kelly has a long of work to do.

And as far as the original point regarding punching power, I'd rate Julian Jackson as a better puncher than both guys at middleweight.

[Pimp C]

:good

You really think Pavlik is a hype job though?

You know, even if Taylor beats him, you have to respect the fact that Taylor is a very good fighter.

I'd still pick Pavlik to beat all the other middleweight and then put a massacre on the supermiddleweight division, save a few fighters. I think Pavlik is far more skilled than Margo a good fighter not really a hype job but receiving way too much credit for beating a overrated crude slugger in Miranda. Most people in general fall for this, not really the case for you since you have talked up Pavlik for sometime now but a lot here right now have bought into it and jumped on the bandwagon. With Taylor even though I don't agree with all the decisions he has proven he can atleast compete with the elite.
I respect Kelly and think he will become a great fighter but I just don't see him beating Taylor right now.

[sues2nd]

IF Pavlik does beat Taylor and shows good boxing ability, will your opinion of him change?

BTW, against Zertuche, I too felt like Pavlik brawled too much and could have kept a flatfooted guy like that on the outside, took less punishment, and possibly won earlier.

It's hard to say though because Zertuche was determined as hell and took some monster punches to get inside.

Depends on how he does it.

If he avoids Taylor's jab well, dictates the pace...as well as where the fight is taking place (and Im not talking bull rushing Taylor and brawlinghim into a corner...Im talking using his jab, his movement and such to keep him where he wants to be...)...as well as shows he CAN box with Jermaine, not just overpower him....then yes.

If he just overpowers him, wears him down and eventually stops him. NO.

If either happens I will be thoroughly impressed.

But a fighter as fundamentally sound as Taylor (who has some of the best footwork in boxing...and YES I CAN back that statement up :lol: ), if he tries the first one...he will lose easily...and if he does the second, Taylor's strength's should negate that (jab, footwork, movement, etc.).

Hense why Im picking Taylor on points.

[BITCH ASS]

I think Pavlik is far more skilled than Margo a good fighter not really a hype job but receiving way too much credit for beating a overrated crude slugger in Miranda. Most people in general fall for this, not really the case for you since you have talked up Pavlik for sometime now but a lot here right now have bought into it and jumped on the bandwagon. With Taylor even though I don't agree with all the decisions he has proven he can atleast compete with the elite.
I respect Kelly and think he will become a great fighter but I just don't see him beating Taylor right now.

:good

[BITCH ASS]

Depends on how he does it.

If he avoids Taylor's jab well, dictates the pace...as well as where the fight is taking place (and Im not talking bull rushing Taylor and brawlinghim into a corner...Im talking using his jab, his movement and such to keep him where he wants to be...)...as well as shows he CAN box with Jermaine, not just overpower him....then yes.

If he just overpowers him, wears him down and eventually stops him. NO.

If either happens I will be thoroughly impressed.

But a fighter as fundamentally sound as Taylor (who has some of the best footwork in boxing...and YES I CAN back that statement up :lol: ), if he tries the first one...he will lose easily...and if he does the second, Taylor's strength's should negate that (jab, footwork, movement, etc.).

Hense why Im picking Taylor on points.

:good

[sues2nd]

BTW, I don't say this to many people, but I do respect you as a poster.

Thanks bro....that means alot to hear.

:good

[SteveO]

It's got the potential to be a war. No draw. The 0 must go.

[bachatu]

I don't know, would Hearns have knocked Zertuche out standing up?
And is your arrogant statement really that reasonable when you consider that Zertuche has NEVER ONCE been knocked down in his career?
And BTW, Pavlik did knock Zertuche the fuck out, so uh.....maybe you oughta explain yourself a little better.
Thank you and Goodnight.

I think Hearns had enough gunpowder in that right hand of his to KO someone like Zertuche. Just think... Hearns knocked Roberto Duran the F out while he was standing up and fell like a brick face first in the second round.



To be honest with you Williams is a nightmare for PBF. His lenght southpaw stance, workrate and stamina would give PBF hell.

Ive said it since I first saw Paul fight..he would be one of the few to bet on against Floyd. He would have such a height advantage plus his punch output is higher than any top contender in the division... Floyd's only chance would be win by KO and I don't think he possesses the physical ability, offense, or style to be able to get to Paul--Look at the reach difference advantage for Paul! It's like 10" reach advantage.

[jsimps]

I am a huge Pavlik supporter for his abilities and due to him being a local guy, but with all due respect, it is way too early in Kelly's career to even mention his name in the same breath as Hearns.

[Jorodz]

hmmm, not to be a dick but are we assuming Hearns is the hardest hitting middleweight of all time? He's probably in my top 3 (probably) and though he's the hardest hitting welter of all time (ahead of robinson) I think Julian Jackson and McClellan both hit harder at that weight. A better boxer? Certainly, Hearns is very underrated with an all time great jab. But once he moved up, he didn't have it as much. Just ask Barkely (yes, Barkely's a freak but if Benn can KO him, so should Hearns). I'm just saying, I don't think he's the pinancle and other middleweights (robinson, graziano, etc.) could hit harder

[kg0208]

I don't think Pavlik is similar to Hearns even slightly....as I stated before, Nunn was closer in skill level and ability to Hearns than any MW in recent memory IMO, just without the power.

Pavlik may very well hit harder than Hearns, who while still being a powerful puncher, he was not the strongest MW puncher ever. There are a # of guys who hit harder at that weight than Hearns, some of which may surprise you.

But I don't think Pavlik is the hardest punching MW ever either as both Nigel Benn and Gerald McClellan probably hit harder at MW.

[sues2nd]

hmmm, not to be a dick but are we assuming Hearns is the hardest hitting middleweight of all time? He's probably in my top 3 (probably) and though he's the hardest hitting welter of all time (ahead of robinson) I think Julian Jackson and McClellan both hit harder at that weight. A better boxer? Certainly, Hearns is very underrated with an all time great jab. But once he moved up, he didn't have it as much. Just ask Barkely (yes, Barkely's a freak but if Benn can KO him, so should Hearns). I'm just saying, I don't think he's the pinancle and other middleweights (robinson, graziano, etc.) could hit harder

Oh of course.

Jackson is one of the hardest P4P punchers ever....let alone MW.

[Shake]

I can detect one similarity in Hearns and Pavlik -- they've both got a great right straight.

Hearns also had a great jab, left hook up- and downstairs, movement and ring generalship.

Comparing Pavlik to Hearns is unfair to Pavlik and unwarranted, although he does have a better chin.

Pavlik is Pavlik, a promising challenger that will test the current champion of the world to his limits, and perhaps, beyond.

[KhanB]

Pavlik is the greatest middleweight puncher Arum has ever seen.

After Pavlik takes out Taylor who is a VERY GOOD fighter, the statement I made when I called Pavlik the closest thing to Tommy Hearns since Tommy Hearns, will look pretty fuckin brilliant.

Taylor is hard as fuck and I see him controlling the first portion of the fight with his jab, keeping the fight in the center of the ring.

The thing that people don't seem to realize though is that Pavlik is multi-dimensional, and while I don't think he could beat Taylor by merely staying in the center of the ring, he could definitely hang with him and win some rounds.

What seperates him though from just an ordinary boxer or even a slugger that likes to keep volume punchers from pinning him against the ropes is that Pavlik can bang, box, and throw.

The guy is a multi-dimensional fighter. He's a boxer/slugger/volume puncher hybrid.

He averages about 80 punches a round, ranks as one of the hardest hitting middleweights in history in my opinion, and has the height and reach to keep his opponents on the outside.

Along with all that, at least based on his interviews and how he performs in the ring, he is a very smart fighter, with an incredibly underrated body attack, (which is actually what I think wore down Miranda, WEIGHT DRAIN EXCUSES aside).

So yeah, like I was saying, Taylor will be successful in the beggining of the fight by keeping the fight in the center of the ring, but eventually he's going to get hit.

And when he does the question is, how will Taylor react?

Personally I think Taylor is hard as fuck, so I think he'll go right at Pavlik. While Taylor could beat almost every other middleweight out there in a brawl, he can't beat Pavlik, no matter how hard he is.

Pavlik hits too hard, has a solid chin, and is just as determined as Taylor.

Pavlik by late rounds KO over a VERY GOOD, UNDERRATED, Jermaine Taylor.

With respect to Pavlik, who cares what Arum says? This is the same promoter who realized Mexican and White fighters bring more loyal fans than Black fighters. Sad but true. Maybe Arum has a business interest in being nice to Pavlik. I dont like Taylor but if were going to say that Pavlik hits harder than Hearns what does that say about McClellan and Jackson? Pavlik hasnt proven he hits harder than any of these guys yet and he damn sure cant box better than Hearns and doesnt have his speed so Hearns has the better punch IMO cuz you probably wont see it coming.

[JohnThomas1]

hmmm, not to be a dick but are we assuming Hearns is the hardest hitting middleweight of all time? He's probably in my top 3 (probably) and though he's the hardest hitting welter of all time (ahead of robinson) I think Julian Jackson and McClellan both hit harder at that weight. A better boxer? Certainly, Hearns is very underrated with an all time great jab. But once he moved up, he didn't have it as much. Just ask Barkely (yes, Barkely's a freak but if Benn can KO him, so should Hearns). I'm just saying, I don't think he's the pinancle and other middleweights (robinson, graziano, etc.) could hit harder

I can't understand how you have Hearns punching bigger than Robinson at 147 but not 160. Hearns may not have retained durability at 160 but he still had some serious power. I myself would also rate Graziano under him in power at middle. You mention Benn which is fair, he's one big hitter but i wouldn't hold his hammering of Barkley against Tommy. Benn is a top puncher, great power.

[enquirer]

To be honest i think hearns is the hardest 147 and 154 one punch hitter in history,the knockouts of cuevas and duran illustrate this clearly...How many DURABLE greats do you see taken out with one punch?
Even at middle i think tommy was at least equal with any other middle in history,his one punch clean ten count ko over the very durable roldan and his hurting the titanium chinned hagler more than anybody else illustrate this...
Jackson and benn were both devastating middleweight hitters,but no bigger than hearns and neither knocked out a great durable fighter with one shot...
Mclleland was a big hitter,but remember he was basically a super middle/lt heavy when in the ring (thank the day before weigh ins to make historical comparisons difficult.) and again he never beat a great durable fighter with one punch....
I just had to respond as the guys who saw hearns at the tail end of his career,or at supermiddle and above may not appreciate the kind of awesome firepower the hitman possessed at 147,154 and 160,and i feel this thread is very disrespectful to hearns' power at middle...Go youtube some of hearns prime years fights to see for yourself....

[pit]

I think Pavlik is far more skilled than Margo a good fighter not really a hype job but receiving way too much credit for beating a overrated crude slugger in Miranda. Most people in general fall for this, not really the case for you since you have talked up Pavlik for sometime now but a lot here right now have bought into it and jumped on the bandwagon. With Taylor even though I don't agree with all the decisions he has proven he can atleast compete with the elite.
I respect Kelly and think he will become a great fighter but I just don't see him beating Taylor right now.

:think :good

not only that Arum has proven that he will say anything that put money in his pockets.