Why did The Greatest lose to basically a one-armed fighter?

[ChrisPontius]

I know this sounds a bit bold, but really, pretty much all Frazier landed in FOTC is left hooks, left hooks, left hooks.....

Sure, he mixed in some other punches, a few uppercuts, some right hands, but it was always the left hook that was thrown with power, dedication and precision and it was always the left hook that did the damage.

Considering how great a boxer Ali was, fast hands, incredible fast feet, ring smarts, long punches, great jab, uppercuts, who could imagine him losing to basically a one-armed fighter??

[janitor]

Considering how great a boxer Ali was, fast hands, incredible fast feet, ring smarts, long punches, great jab, uppercuts, who could imagine him losing to basically a one-armed fighter??

Simple really.

The one arm was the right arm to get the job done

Ali's main technical vulnerability was to a left hook which was Fraziers forte.

The other greatest (Louis) lost to a fighter who relied heavily on his overhand right because that was the punch that he was most vulnerable to.

[McGrain]

Well punching is only a part of the problem. Delivery is also an issue.

Frazier is able to deliver these punches relentlessly due to an extraordinary workrate and an enormouse heart. He is there to be hit but in hitting him you risk being hit - and Frazier can get busy.

As you've observed, Frazier did mix it and was far from "one-armed".

But the basic answer to your question as far as I can see are the physical attributes that he owned allowed him to pressure pressure pressure a fighter that didn't particularly enjoy pressure.

No-one would.

[Shake]

If the one-armed fighter has nearly unlimited stamina and a willingness to take any punch in order to land, he'll probably land it with regularity unless you have the power to stop him in his tracks.

You're talking about Joe Frazier here. Give the man his respect.

I personally also think Ali took that fight too soon. He took too big fights too soon without sufficient recovery time. His coordination and ring-comfort were not optimal, and it had to be to beat Joe Frazier.

[My dinner with Conteh]

It was the greatest performance by a one-armed man since Spencer Tracy beat up Lee Marvin AND Ernest Borgnine in Bad Day At Black Rock. :good

[cross_trainer]

It was the greatest performance by a one-armed man since Spencer Tracy beat up Lee Marvin AND Ernest Borgnine in Bad Day At Black Rock. :good

That's nothing compared to this gentleman:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Mendoza]

I know this sounds a bit bold, but really, pretty much all Frazier landed in FOTC is left hooks, left hooks, left hooks.....

Sure, he mixed in some other punches, a few uppercuts, some right hands, but it was always the left hook that was thrown with power, dedication and precision and it was always the left hook that did the damage.

Considering how great a boxer Ali was, fast hands, incredible fast feet, ring smarts, long punches, great jab, uppercuts, who could imagine him losing to basically a one-armed fighter??

Swarmers usually have the advantage over pure boxing types....especially if the boxer has less stamina than the swarmer. Frazier simply wore a brash Ali out. When Ali took breaks in the corners and the ropes, Frazier went to work with those hooks. Ali also had a low guard, and had a tendency to be “ nailed " by hooks. Frazier simply matched up well with Ali.

If Ali had learned how to clinch prior to the 1971 fight, the result could have been different. After the first fight, Ali learned how to tie Frazier up, mostly with illegal clinching behind the head.

[mcvey]

Simple really.

The one arm was the right arm to get the job done

Ali's main technical vulnerability was to a left hook which was Fraziers forte.

The other greatest (Louis) lost to a fighter who relied heavily on his overhand right because that was the punch that he was most vulnerable to.
Not that simple why didnt Baer ko Louis ,he had a far harder overhand right than Schmeling,Frazier beat Ali with constant pressure,he was willing as Ali said to"pay any price", both of them left a bit of themselves i n that ring,but Fraziers "bit" was bigger. Jose Torres said in his book Sting Like a Bee,Ali in his comeback had been sparring ,lying constantly on the ropes,it had become a habit,it was the wrong place to be against Frazier
,,Ali was really rocked in the 11th I thought he might go down,and how did he get up from that hook in the 15th? Fraziers shining hour,he was never the same again.Ali said "if he beats me Ill crawl across the ring and kiss his feet ,at the fights close Frazier remembered it and paying respect to Ali said unprompted"aint nobody got to do no crawlin tonight".

[PowerPuncher]

1 Amazing Arm is better than 2 Average Arms

[Stonehands89]

It was the greatest performance by a one-armed man since Spencer Tracy beat up Lee Marvin AND Ernest Borgnine in Bad Day At Black Rock. :good

Conteh bringing back memories! Great movie. Robert Ryan plays the best racist bastard in the history of cinema. Have you seen Crossfire? Odds Against Tomorrow? Clash By Night? I know you've seen the Set-Up.

Ryan boxed in college and had a 5-0 record with 3 KOs...

[Bummy Davis]

Ali had a problem with the left hook, he was dumped by Cooper and Frazier, probery the 2 best lefthookers he fought,Patterson and Moore caught him a few times and Doug Jones also. If you feinted a left vs Ali he leaned his head back and then fired a hook you would catch him, Howard Davis jr got caught the same way

[MagnificentMatt]

I know this sounds a bit bold, but really, pretty much all Frazier landed in FOTC is left hooks, left hooks, left hooks.....

Sure, he mixed in some other punches, a few uppercuts, some right hands, but it was always the left hook that was thrown with power, dedication and precision and it was always the left hook that did the damage.

Considering how great a boxer Ali was, fast hands, incredible fast feet, ring smarts, long punches, great jab, uppercuts, who could imagine him losing to basically a one-armed fighter??
One-eyed as well...

That one armed fighter was aslo extremely slick, which Ali didnt seem to like, he didnt like Left hooks either, so mix em up and look what you got.

[JimboDs]

When fighting punchers, boxers tend to favor moving away from the strong hand. A great left hook is a puncher's best friend against a boxer. You get quicker delivery and it's generally easier to land. It makes it difficult for the boxer to move laterally if you can keep the pressure up the way Frazier did because Ali was not as comfortable moving to his left as he was to his right.

Frazier also correctly took advantage of the height disparity between him and by staying low and springing up with left hooks to counter when Ali punched down with his right.

Finally, it was not just Frazier's left hook, but his elusiveness and athleticism that helped him beat Ali. He also had sick conditioning to keep the pressure on for 15 rounds.

[Marciano Frazier]

I know this sounds a bit bold, but really, pretty much all Frazier landed in FOTC is left hooks, left hooks, left hooks.....

Sure, he mixed in some other punches, a few uppercuts, some right hands, but it was always the left hook that was thrown with power, dedication and precision and it was always the left hook that did the damage.

Considering how great a boxer Ali was, fast hands, incredible fast feet, ring smarts, long punches, great jab, uppercuts, who could imagine him losing to basically a one-armed fighter?? A somewhat one-armed fighter who had seemingly almost-limitless stamina, an impressive workrate, a non-stop pressure style, fast hands, good head movement, and a thunderously powerful hook? Yes, I can see a guy like that beating a lot of people, particularly ones whose greatest stylistic difficulties are with small, aggressive guys and whose biggest defensive vulnerabilities are to left hooks.

[achillesthegreat]

Calling Frazier a one armed fight is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

Frazier could throw every text book punch with his right hand and did so.

Frazier neglected the jab BUT he still had a jab.

[JohnThomas1]

It was the greatest performance by a one-armed man since Spencer Tracy beat up Lee Marvin AND Ernest Borgnine in Bad Day At Black Rock. :good


:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

[ChrisPontius]

Calling Frazier a one armed fight is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

Frazier could throw every text book punch with his right hand and did so.

Frazier neglected the jab BUT he still had a jab.

Yes but let's be honest, Frazier rarely did significant damage with a punch other than the left hook. No doubt Johansson could throw a mean uppercut but it was always his right hand that did the damage.


Obviously i was exaggarating a bit, but the reason i posted this is because at my gym, a trainer was telling someone: "all you do is throw right hands, you may beat a few people in sparring here with it, but a good skilled boxer is going to take you apart if you're so limited". Frazier proved that was pretty much untrue as he took one of the best boxers ever apart over 15 rounds using the same tactic over and over.

[NickHudson]

Further to what the other posters have said about Frazier's endurance and other physical qualities, I would also add another stylistic one.

As well as being a fast and powerful left hook, it was also a punch that was deceptive. Frazier was very good at throwing the hook tight as well as wide, but he never telegraphed his punches.

[Strangely Brown]

It was more to do with Frazier's constant pressuring. Post '67 Ali's legs didn't keep him out of trouble as easy and basically he allowed Frazier to pummel away at him, winning rounds and wearing him down further.

A pre-exile Ali may well have been able to keep out of the way of Frazier and expose Joe's own faults a lot easier ( I suspect a mid-fight stoppage in Ali's favour if a prime Frazier fought a prime Ali).

[mcvey]

Great analysis!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[ChrisPontius]

A pre-exile Ali may well have been able to keep out of the way of Frazier and expose Joe's own faults a lot easier ( I suspect a mid-fight stoppage in Ali's favour if a prime Frazier fought a prime Ali).

I have to disagree. Ali was pinned on the ropes by Chuvalo. He fought a lot of stiff competition in his first career, guys that were nowhere near the class of Frazier or past it, or couldn't pressure him. Folley has a ridiculously bad chin and was old, Terrel didn't do much at all (eye problem) except surviving the distance, Floyd had a bad back, and Cooper, Mildenberger, Chuvalo....

Frazier would've forced Ali to do things he'd never done before. And i think Ali is never gonna stop a prime Frazier.

Why i believe that is because the '71 Ali was a bit bigger, seemed to punch a bit harder, threw his hardest shots and sat down on all of them for 5 rounds when Frazier was slow, and couldn't even hurt him or keep him off him. If he's gonna beat a prime Frazier it's gonna be on points, but running from Frazier is simply not gonna work. In my opinion. Frazier is not a Folley, a shot Williams or a Terrel who follows you around like a zombie.

[Luigi1985]

It was more to do with Frazier's constant pressuring. Post '67 Ali's legs didn't keep him out of trouble as easy and basically he allowed Frazier to pummel away at him, winning rounds and wearing him down further.

A pre-exile Ali may well have been able to keep out of the way of Frazier and expose Joe's own faults a lot easier ( I suspect a mid-fight stoppage in Ali's favour if a prime Frazier fought a prime Ali).





:tired

[mcvey]

Ali had a problem with the left hook, he was dumped by Cooper and Frazier, probery the 2 best lefthookers he fought,Patterson and Moore caught him a few times and Doug Jones also. If you feinted a left vs Ali he leaned his head back and then fired a hook you would catch him, Howard Davis jr got caught the same way
Liston had a great left hook ,so did Patterson,,they didnt do so well.

[mcvey]

When fighting punchers, boxers tend to favor moving away from the strong hand. A great left hook is a puncher's best friend against a boxer. You get quicker delivery and it's generally easier to land. It makes it difficult for the boxer to move laterally if you can keep the pressure up the way Frazier did because Ali was not as comfortable moving to his left as he was to his right.

Frazier also correctly took advantage of the height disparity between him and by staying low and springing up with left hooks to counter when Ali punched down with his right.

Finally, it was not just Frazier's left hook, but his elusiveness and athleticism that helped him beat Ali. He also had sick conditioning to keep the pressure on for 15 rounds.
When you are fighting a guy nearly 4 inches smaller who fight s out of a crouch ,a lot of your punches are going over his head,and,if he is a good hooker ,when you uppercut him ,or try to,you are very vulnerable to the hook.Not only Alis jaw took punishment ,he had contusions on his hips from Fraziers incessant hooks.

[JohnThomas1]

Liston had a great left hook ,so did Patterson,,they didnt do so well.

The fact of the matter is that post exile Ali lost a lot of mobility and some speed, reflex and stamina among other things. I reckon you'd agree that the earlier version of Ali wouldn't have been in the pocket anywhere near as often. Personally, like you i am not convinced of this weakness.

[mcvey]

The fact of the matter is that post exile Ali lost a lot of mobility and some speed, reflex and stamina among other things. I reckon you'd agree that the earlier version of Ali wouldn't have been in the pocket anywhere near as often. Personally, like you i am not convinced of this weakness.
Fraziers biggest weapon was his left hook Alis was his legs,against Frazier he didnt have them,imo if Ali had fought Joe in his prime ,and I mean during those 3 years he was banned he would have been 3 - 0 against him.Still not at his best ,against a man in his prime,who fought the fight of his life ,he gave Frazier hell and hospitalized him,wonderful performances by both men.

[Luigi1985]

It´s really no criticism or so, but IMO the 60s-version of Ali was really quicker on his feet, but his chin/ physical wasn´t the same like later when he got stronger and more muscular. IMO this version of Ali would get KO´d against Frazier...

[JohnThomas1]

Fraziers biggest weapon was his left hook Alis was his legs,against Frazier he didnt have them,imo if Ali had fought Joe in his prime ,and I mean during those 3 years he was banned he would have been 3 - 0 against him.Still not at his best ,against a man in his prime,who fought the fight of his life ,he gave Frazier hell and hospitalized him,wonderful performances by both men.

Agreed.

[JohnThomas1]

I like how there are only excuses for Ali not being in his prime and how he would've been 3-0 against Frazier.:tired

Frazier himself had eye problems, high blood pressure, arthritis, etc. If we're going to make excuses, let's be fair about it.

Or, you know, we could make no excuses at all.:good

Frazier was as good as he ever got, Ali wasn't.

:good

[mcvey]

Ali had a problem with the left hook, he was dumped by Cooper and Frazier, probery the 2 best lefthookers he fought,Patterson and Moore caught him a few times and Doug Jones also. If you feinted a left vs Ali he leaned his head back and then fired a hook you would catch him, Howard Davis jr got caught the same way
Cooper caught Ali by throwing 3 jabs ,which Ali backed away from rather than slipping the problem was that the ropes were behind him ,so there was nowhere to go the ropes contributed to his kd ,but they may also have helped him as he had a gentle drop rather than a concussive thud onto the canvas,I dont but it that if the kd had happenend earlier he would have been kod,he was up quick a bit groggy but not out of it.Howard Davis seemmed to me to have a morbid fear of being tagged ,and was allways going in reverse as he delivered a punch ,even a jab,he had talent but lacked abit of ticker,imo,skill wise he should have beaten Watt,but he didnt have the grit for it.

[Sonny's jab]

Frazier actually had a very decent right hand. His left hook was his best shot but he was not "one-armed" in any way. His right hand did a lot of hurt and damage, it wasn't something that could be ignored or dsmissed at all. I'm sure a right to the ribs from Frazier would make you DREAD the next one.

The question should be about why Ali was so easy for Frazier to nail over and over with the left to a point where Frazier looked like a guy who didn't throw rights !

When you let a guy land his BEST SHOT over and over, he'd be foolish to spend much time landing his secondary shot.

[mr. magoo]

Frazier actually had a very decent right hand. His left hook was his best shot but he was not "one-armed" in any way. His right hand did a lot of hurt and damage, it wasn't something that could be ignored or dsmissed at all. I'm sure a right to the ribs from Frazier would make you DREAD the next one.

The question should be about why Ali was so easy for Frazier to nail over and over with the left to a point where Frazier looked like a guy who didn't throw rights !

When you let a guy land his BEST SHOT over and over, he'd be foolish to spend much time landing his secondary shot.

Holy sheep shit!!!!!! It's Sonny!!!!

Where've ya been old pal???

I'm gonna party now that you're back :mj

[Bo Bo Olson]

Mainly because Joe was half blind in his right eye, and therefore stopped using his very good right as much as he had...and he was pressure, hereky jerky, and had an extream work rate.
Have you noticed tht there is no body that fights that hard, sicne, and before perhaps only the Rock....that hook was always comming....and he did have a jab too...but was sort of short armed vs the very long armed Ali...
Tyson was pressure, but Joe never seemed to stop when he was in the mood....
He wasn't there to be cute, he had a cold beer waiting.

[mcvey]

I like how there are only excuses for Ali not being in his prime and how he would've been 3-0 against Frazier.:tired

Frazier himself had eye problems, high blood pressure, arthritis, etc. If we're going to make excuses, let's be fair about it.

Or, you know, we could make no excuses at all.:good
Ali ,going into the Frazier fight had 18 rounds of boxing in 4 years,that isnt an excuse,its a fact! The man considered the best fighter in the world ,fights the fight of his life and has to take incredible punishment to do it,and winds up hospitalized,those arent excuses they are facts!

[cross_trainer]

Yes but let's be honest, Frazier rarely did significant damage with a punch other than the left hook. No doubt Johansson could throw a mean uppercut but it was always his right hand that did the damage.


Obviously i was exaggarating a bit, but the reason i posted this is because at my gym, a trainer was telling someone: "all you do is throw right hands, you may beat a few people in sparring here with it, but a good skilled boxer is going to take you apart if you're so limited". Frazier proved that was pretty much untrue as he took one of the best boxers ever apart over 15 rounds using the same tactic over and over.

My best answer/guess would be this:

Frazier was able to use the left hook so much because Ali was so open to it. If Ali hadn't had the specific weakness for the left hook, then Frazier would have been in trouble (just as Louis had a weakness for right hands against Schmeling). When your trainer wants you to avoid throwing one punch over and over again, he's assuming you'll be up against a well-rounded opponent without a glaring weakness for a single type of punch. Against another type of fighter, Frazier would have thrown the left hook less and other punches more. It's just that, against Ali, it was the left that got through more often.

Also, Frazier may have relied on the left hook, but he used his right to keep Ali guessing. He wasn't a true one-handed fighter since he used his other punches to set up his left. It's a bit like the jab. You can't win a fight with JUST a jab, but it's used to set up the powerpunches that WILL win the fight.

[janitor]

[quote=mcvey]Not that simple why didnt Baer ko Louis ,he had a far harder overhand right than Schmeling,

Because he did not have the technique to utilize it. Still he did tag Louis with a few flush shots.

Frazier beat Ali with constant pressure,he was willing as Ali said to"pay any price",

Sure but the left hook was an issue.

"The left hook is the hardest punch to avoid by pulling back. That is why I hit the butterfly with so many"

Joe Frazier

[mcvey]

[QUOTE]

Because he did not have the technique to utilize it. Still he did tag Louis with a few flush shots.



Sure but the left hook was an issue.

"The left hook is the hardest punch to avoid by pulling back. That is why I hit the butterfly with so many"

Joe Frazier
No problem with that ,actually I think the left hook is the hardest punch to avoid period!

[The Whaler]

That's nothing compared to this gentleman:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And in the same vein:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

China must be littered with talented one-armed people.

[Manassa]

That's nothing compared to this gentleman:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

My nan actually bought that for me because she thought it was to do with boxing boxing.

[cross_trainer]

And in the same vein:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

China must be littered with talented one-armed people.

They seem to encounter a lot of handicapped opponents too...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[cross_trainer]

My nan actually bought that for me because she thought it was to do with boxing boxing.

:lol:

She should get you the sequel too. It's even worse.

[Sonny's jab]

Holy sheep shit!!!!!! It's Sonny!!!!

Where've ya been old pal???

I'm gonna party now that you're back :mj
Thanks, man. :lol:
It's good to be here. :good

I've been busy as hell with work/money issues. Long long work days and on my few days off I enjoy my sleep. :zzz

[Blacc Jesus]

When you are fighting a guy nearly 4 inches smaller who fight s out of a crouch ,a lot of your punches are going over his head,and,if he is a good hooker ,when you uppercut him ,or try to,you are very vulnerable to the hook.Not only Alis jaw took punishment ,he had contusions on his hips from Fraziers incessant hooks.
Ali was probably pissing blood for weeks from those body shots. :oops:

[mcvey]

My nan actually bought that for me because she thought it was to do with boxing boxing.
AH Bless!

[mcvey]

Ali was probably pissing blood for weeks from those body shots. :oops:
I would be surprised if he wasnt!

[Longhhorn71]

As stated above, a super motivated Frazier who had been taunted by Ali for a year or so, was the greatest fighter in the world on that particular night.

Ali had slowed down since his prime in 1966 and when a tank is coming at you that is trying to take your head off with each punch it makes you pretty wary. Frazier had a "Ali warm-up fight" with Jimmy Ellis and blasted him out with fast left hooks too....you think Angelo Dundee would have learned then what was in store for Ali since Ellis was a low grade Ali copy.

Big George said what he looked for was for Frazier to "dip" his shoulder ....which meant the hook was on the way. Foreman would then quickly raise his own right arm to block Frazier's hook while George moved inside to smash home a left uppercut to Frazier's chin.

After the Foreman-Frazier fight was over, George responded to a sportwriter's question by saying: "That thing was Joe's left hook?"..(indicating it didn't bother him what-so-ever)

It is all about styles...what was poison to Ali.....was a mosquito bite to Foreman.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=dave krieg]This is simple.Basically if you think Ali was the greatest then maybe you suffered some type of brain damage and should seek help.Ali was easy to hit with any short punch.Unlike people claim Ali couldn't take a punch well.

I certainly hope that this post was intended as a joke, because if you're serious, then you really need to take a break from chat forums while you touch up on your knowledge.

[Blacc Jesus]

[quote]

I certainly hope that this post was intended as a joke, because if you're serious, then you really need to take a break from chat forums while you touch up on your knowledge.
:lol: I second that.

[JIm Broughton]

Fights are all about styles and Frazier had the style to give Ali fits, period. That fight showcased the best each man had to offer. I don't think either man looked better in any any fight before or after that one.

[ChrisPontius]

Fights are all about styles and Frazier had the style to give Ali fits, period. That fight showcased the best each man had to offer. I don't think either man looked better in any any fight before or after that one.

Agreed. I mean, Ali looked more spectacular before, but he never really had to dig deep deep like he did. Frazier asked him questions that he'd never been asked before. Ali went the distance which i think is a great accomplishment considering the beating he was taking. He had to run a lot from Liston which must have been scary, but this was a whole different story. Frazier didn't allow him to run and took it right to him.
That's why it's my favorite fight of all time.