Top five of the last forty years ?

[cuchulain]

Name your top five fighters of the last forty years in terms of natural boxing ability.

CONSIDER

speed
reflexes
style
movement
ring generalship
offence
defence
timing
counterpunching

Just to get the old ball rolling, in chronological order:

Ali
Leonard
Sweetpea
Jones
Mayweather

[Luigi1985]

Hm, you mentioned my choices already but i think Tyson and Duran are up there with these guys.


Don´t forget John Ruiz!

[Luigi1985]

Well, i don´t think he has to be mentioned, it is common knowledge that nobody ever came close to the natural boxing ability of the bearded warrior.


Agreed, his skills are just in another league, that wouldn´t be fair for the likes of Duran, SRL, etc... :good

[Street Lethal]

1967-2007

Duran

Hagler

Chavez

Whitaker

Ali

Loosely in that order.
If it were the past 50 years and thus included the 1960s, then Ali is on top.

[Blacc Jesus]

Ali
RJJ
Tyson
Sweet Pea
Toney

[Holmes' Jab]

Ali
Sweet Pea
Leonard
Tyson
Duran

[rendog67]

Name your top five fighters of the last forty years in terms of natural boxing ability.

CONSIDER

speed
reflexes
style
movement
ring generalship
offence
defence
timing
counterpunching

Just to get the old ball rolling, in chronological order:

Ali
Leonard
Sweetpea
Jones
Mayweather

those would also be my choices :good

[brooklyn1550]

Muhammad Ali
Pernell Whitaker
Roberto Duran
Sugar Ray Leonard
Roy Jones, Jr.

[Ironside]

RJJ
Hagler


doesn't matter who the other ones are.

[Robbi]

I will only include a fighter who's career started from 1967 onwards, or at least won their first world title 1967 onwards. Muhammad Ali's prime can't be counted, so he's not in my top five.

Roberto Duran
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Marvin Hagler
Roy Jones Jr

[Luigi1985]

Ali
RJJ
Tyson
Sweet Pea
Toney


:think Toney? C´mon...

[mcvey]

Name your top five fighters of the last forty years in terms of natural boxing ability.

CONSIDER

speed
reflexes
style
movement
ring generalship
offence
defence
timing
counterpunching

Just to get the old ball rolling, in chronological order:

Ali
Leonard
Sweetpea
Jones
Mayweather
Ali
Leonard
Duran
JonesJnr
Hagler/Whitaker
On the bench Holmes,Napoles,Foster.

[TIGEREDGE]

Duran
leonard
Ali
Jones
tyson

Even though i don't think jones was as great as people say, he did have some great ability. for me though, he never proved that he had the killer instinct, heart and chin required to be a great fighter

[Bill Butcher]

Ali
Leonard
Sweetpea
Jones
Mayweather

If you are talking pure boxers who use reflexes, speed & rarely allow themselves to get dragged into a brawl then, my friend, I agree 100% with your top 5.

If your talking just plain greatest fighters p4p then my list is
ali
leonard
duran
whitaker
chavez

3 stay the same but I rate duran & chavez a notch higher than jones & floyd.

Good stuff nonetheless.

[redrooster]

Jones and Hagler stand out as the most complete fighters. I consider Jones to fit the definition of a true sugar Ray.

Ali wasn't a complete fighter and his defense really suffered. you can't say Muhammud was a great defensive fighter although, he had to be the showman of the century-the most influencial athlete I've ever seen.

Other fighters to consider as top flight boxers-the slickest of the slick are Camacho and Thomas Hearns who was very hard to outbox. You could throw in Pernell. He had top flight skills who learned everything he knew from his idol, Camacho.

[redrooster]

You're a troll, I will now stop taking you seriously for good. Pernell was 10X the fighter Camacho could ever have hoped to have been. Camacho was maybe top 100. Pernell was maybe top 10.

no one came close to beating Hector in his prime. all my top fighters-Hagler, Jones, Camacho, were never beat during their primes. They could only lose when they were on their way out.

I have to go. someone's sending me a private message.

[Robbi]

no one came close to beating Hector in his prime. all my top fighters-Hagler, Jones, Camacho, were ever beat during their primes. They could only lose when they were on their way out.

I have to go. someone's sending me a private message.

All those guys were past their primes, but a 34 year old Leonard wasn't against Norris?

[Asterion]

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Whitaker
Jones

After that: Ali, Mayweather, Hopkins, Chavez

[brownpimp88]

no one came close to beating Hector in his prime. all my top fighters-Hagler, Jones, Camacho, were ever beat during their primes. They could only lose when they were on their way out.

I have to go. someone's sending me a private message.
Exactly, hector schooled everyone from 83-90 and the sad thing is that his first loss came cuz he didnt touch his opponent's gloves, how fuckin sad is that.

[redrooster]

All those guys were past their primes, but a 34 year old Leonard wasn't against Norris?

age 34 doesn't mean a decline unless you show it in previous fights and i've seen leonard struggle long before going back to montreal. uno mas is one of leonard's crowning achievements. it was the perfect exhibition of how to stick for the length of an entire bout without slowing. it was up there with Norris-leonard.

[Robbi]

age 34 doesn't mean a decline unless you show it in previous fights and i've seen leonard struggle long before going back to montreal. uno mas is one of leonard's crowning achievements. it was the perfect exhibition of how to stick for the length of an entire bout without slowing. it was up there with Norris-leonard.

Leonard wasn't defeated between Montreal and the Norris fight, but by no means did his prime suddenly end because Norris defeated him. Leonard wasn't very busy during the late 80's, and he was certainly past it for the Hearns rematch and the Duran rubber-match. Still a damn good fighter with good ring generalship, but I'm sure everyone with a knowledgeable boxing brain could see he wasn't the fighter of the early 80's. Leonard simply grinded out wins and wasn't defeated again until 1991 because he knew how to win, simple. However, I thought he lost the Hearns rematch in my own opinion.

So Leonard had the same reflxes and handspeed during the early 80's as he did during the late 80's?. You said "age 34 doesn't mean a decline unless you show it".

Leonard's superb efforts throughout the late 80's caught up with him against Norris. And as I have said twice already, he hadn't made 154lbs since for 7 years.

[redrooster]

Leonard wasn't defeated between Montreal and the Norris fight, but by no means did his prime suddenly end because Norris defeated him. Leonard wasn't very busy during the late 80's, and he was certainly past it for the Hearns rematch and the Duran rubber-match. Still a damn good fighter with good ring generalship, but I'm sure everyone with a knowledgeable boxing brain could see he wasn't the fighter of the early 80's. Leonard simply grinded out wins and wasn't defeated again until 1991 because he knew how to win, simple. However, I thought he lost the Hearns rematch in my own opinion.

So Leonard had the same reflxes and handspeed during the early 80's as he did during the late 80's?. You said "age 34 doesn't mean a decline unless you show it".

Leonard's superb efforts throughout the late 80's caught up with him against Norris. And as I have said twice already, he hadn't made 154lbs since for 7 years.

Look at Bernard Hopkins. people are telling me his loss to Jones was meaningless-that he didn't hit his peak until the fight with Tito. Bernard was 36 at the time. I don't know exactly when it was but it shows proof that Hopkins hadn't slowed and may have been better at age 36 than he was at 28

you have to have something to base it on and the performances tell the story if you're declining.

with leonard it's hard to say. he's had so few fights in the years 1980, 1981 and beyond it's hard to tell what he may or may have not achieved. The best i can do is point at his most previous contest and note that all his reflexes were in top working order. the combinations as effortless as usual, the bolo, the shuffle, the jab-nothing was missing Robbi.

it didn't work with Norris because he didn't fit the profile of the style leonard likes to face-slow, plodding, hittable. only twice in that fight did i notice ray connect with combinations-late in the 11th when Terry relxed (knowing he had the fight in the bag) and early (1st round) when Norris came at him on the ropes, making it easy for Ray to counter.

but when Terry was on the move it was no contest and Ray didn't know what to do. this was the same problem he faced in the Hearns fight in 81. Leonard had major problems getting to tommy and only when he slowed down to a walk in the late rounds was he able to land one of his haymakers aimed at tommy's chin.

I don't believe Ray had enough contests for his efforts to have caught up with him the way it did with Marvin Hagler. Hagler was the one who was always taking on the top fighters and when he started slwoing, he took punishment en route to victory as you can see in the Roldan fights. he took Leonard's toughest foe in Hearns and spit him out in three but it was arduous to say the least and stripped him of most of his remaining skills. he wasn't sharp at all against the beast and Mugabi pretty much finished what was left of him.

getting back to leonard's weight, let's put this in proper perspective-Ray Leonard challenged Norris at that weight, not the other way around. why should I believe Ray can't make the weight??

[Street Lethal]

Leonard's superb efforts throughout the late 80's caught up with him against Norris.
Are you describing his efforts against Hearns in II as superb? Duran III? Those weren't superb performances. I don't think you can call the LaLonde gig suprerb. It was a sloppy fight. The only fight in which he looked good was his losing effort against Marvin Hagler, and this was only because Hagler had slowed down considerably.
I don't know what Leonard did to deserve to be in the top five of the last forty years. Lose to a lightweight? Did Ali lose to a light heavyweight? Did Duran lose to a featherweight? Leonard was in his prime when he lost to Duran. Did Hagler lose to a welterweight in his prime? Did Chavez lose to a featherweight? How about Whitaker?

[redrooster]

he doesn't deserve to be among the top five, Lethal. He had the beginning of what looked like a pretty good career when he pulled out of the sport knowing he couldn't really cut it and the Hearns fight made him realize his luck was going to run out in the near future.

I really can't understand how someone like Kevin Howard gave him such a tough fight when hewas only 27.

Those people blaming it on the two year layoff are the same ones boasting how he beat Marvin after a three year layoff and three years later!

I had Ray at number 41 over the past 30 years that may have been way off but no way is he close to being number 1. I would even place that panty hose freak DLH higher (who would look better if he had as many gift decisions go his way)

[Robbi]

Are you describing his efforts against Hearns in II as superb? Duran III? Those weren't superb performances. I don't think you can call the LaLonde gig suprerb. It was a sloppy fight. The only fight in which he looked good was his losing effort against Marvin Hagler, and this was only because Hagler had slowed down considerably.
I don't know what Leonard did to deserve to be in the top five of the last forty years. Lose to a lightweight? Did Ali lose to a light heavyweight? Did Duran lose to a featherweight? Leonard was in his prime when he lost to Duran. Did Hagler lose to a welterweight in his prime? Did Chavez lose to a featherweight? How about Whitaker?

I'm describing his efforts against Hagler and Lalonde as superb. Saying "his superb efforts of the late 80's" doesn't mean every single fight he looked brilliant. I do concede he lost the rematch against Hearns. Leonard won handily against Duran in the rubber-match, and it was Duran's performance that should be questioned that night.

Leonard lost to a lightweight?. I'm pretty sure Leonard v Duran I was at welterweight the last time I knew. Duran was a natural lightweight who struggled with the scales late in his lightweight reign. He even had around seven fights at welterweight before facing Leonard. And your not going to tell me Leonard dwarfed Duran the night they shared a ring in Montreal. Duran was a welterweight when he squared off against Leonard.

Leonard wasn't given a prayer against Hagler, slowed down or not. The man had one fight in five years, and was expected to get KTFO. You have problems with the decision, but your man lost fair and square.

[Robbi]

Look at Bernard Hopkins. people are telling me his loss to Jones was meaningless-that he didn't hit his peak until the fight with Tito. Bernard was 36 at the time. I don't know exactly when it was but it shows proof that Hopkins hadn't slowed and may have been better at age 36 than he was at 28

Your contradicting yourself. As the above is your point in the arguement to counter me saying Leonard had slowed down against Norris. Would you say Hagler had slowed when he fought Leonard?.

No doubt you'll try and talk yourself out of this one with a couple of paragraphs containing nonsense.

[Robbi]

I had Ray at number 41 over the past 30 years that may have been way off but no way is he close to being number 1.

I'm no massive Leonard fan, but to rate him outside the top 10 is absturd. 41, is a joke beyond belief.

Lets look at some hard facts. Leonard beat Benitez, Hearns, Duran, and Hagler. To rate him at 41 must be a joke. Im sure your not serious.

[redrooster]

Your contradicting yourself. As the above is your point in the arguement to counter me saying Leonard had slowed down against Norris. Would you say Hagler had slowed when he fought Leonard?.

No doubt you'll try and talk yourself out of this one with a couple of paragraphs containing nonsense.

i'm not contradicting myself at all. age by itself is not enough to conclude a fighter is ready to be taken. Bernard Hopkins is the perfect proof of that.

Hagler had so many fights compared with the paltry number leonard had, is it any wonder Hagler was headed for a loss? hagler's opposition wore him down much faster than his age. leonard saw it and decided it was the right time to come out of his phony retirement.

[redrooster]

I'm no massive Leonard fan, but to rate him outside the top 10 is absturd. 41, is a joke beyond belief.

Lets look at some hard facts. Leonard beat Benitez, Hearns, Duran, and Hagler. To rate him at 41 must be a joke. Im sure your not serious.

I ranked him 41 but found that was being hasty. Outside the top ten is justified however. we're talking about 30 years here and I can find so many fighters who were better than Ray leonard-five of them in the lightheavyweight division alone (Jones, Spinks, Galindez, Saad Muhammud, Braxton).

throw in names of contemporaries like Arguello, Mayweather, Jeff Chandler, Sanchez, Whitaker, Chavez, Norris, and he easily gets pushed out of the top ten.

What's helping ray is his talent which is great when he's facing limited club fighters like Dave Green at a controlled pace but when put in with a hustler like Duran, or Norris, he gets forced out of his rhythm and loses his composure.


In the 80's he could make top ten. his win over Hagler helps him with the recognition part but then the gaps which are questionable bring him down lower and the Norris fight really puts it all in perspective.

[Street Lethal]

Lets look at some hard facts. Leonard beat Benitez, Hearns, Duran, and Hagler. To rate him at 41 must be a joke. Im sure your not serious.
No offense, Robbi, but those aren't hard facts. You just throwing out names. Yes, Leonard beat Benitez. We will give him that one. But he lost to Duran big time. The rematch was a bust. The rubbermatch was shit. He was getting completely outboxed by Hearns. Leonard lucked out when Hearns ran out of gas. The rematch? Hearns was robbed. He lost to Hagler, even though Hagler was used up by that point. Hagler was robbed. In between, he had trouble with fighters he shouldn't have. Then there's Norris. So when you look at the actual circumstances, the hard facts tell us something quite different from what you want to believe.

There are easily 10 boxers who can be ranked ahead of Leonard when evaluating the past 40 years: Ali, Duran, Hagler, Chavez, Whitaker, Jones, Spinks, Arguello, Monzon, Napoles, Foster - there's eleven right there. Nothing Leonard did justifies placing him ahead of these boxers. Nothing he showed us in the ring justifies placing him ahead of these boxers.

[Robbi]

No offense, Robbi, but those aren't hard facts. You just throwing out names. Yes, Leonard beat Benitez. We will give him that one. But he lost to Duran big time. The rematch was a bust. The rubbermatch was shit. He was getting completely outboxed by Hearns. Leonard lucked out when Hearns ran out of gas. The rematch? Hearns was robbed. He lost to Hagler, even though Hagler was used up by that point. Hagler was robbed. In between, he had trouble with fighters he shouldn't have. Then there's Norris. So when you look at the actual circumstances, the hard facts tell us something quite different from what you want to believe.

Those are hard facts, but facts you don't like. You then give your OPINION on the outcome of those fights.

What I mean by facts, he TKO'd Benitez and Hearns late, won a rematch against Duran, and was awarded a close decision against Hagler. Those are FACTS.

[MJRJJ23]

Muhammad Ali
Pernell Whitaker
Roberto Duran
Sugar Ray Leonard
Roy Jones, Jr.

Great list :thumbsup

[Duodenum]

Don´t forget John Ruiz!I beg to differ Luigi. Have you checked out Chuck Wepner on youtube?

[JohnThomas1]

Muhammad Ali
Pernell Whitaker
Roberto Duran
Sugar Ray Leonard
Roy Jones, Jr.

That's near as good as it gets.

I want to add Salvador Sanchez and peak Wilfredo Gomez to the fore. Unfortunately many have not witnessed Gomez in the days when he could box as pure as crystal. Unbelievable boxer/puncher who had one big prob, he had Sanchez to go thru when rising in weight. He was actually declining when the great Azumah Nelson stopped him.

[redrooster]

:lol: "Box as pure as crystal"

you're gay

[JohnThomas1]

:lol: "Box as pure as crystal"

you're gay

You were the faggot complaining and whining about my sexy avatar pics mate :lol:

You were also the one who needed a SRL loss to get enough blood to the organ to celebrate with some post Casino sax. Nothing gets more gay than that

:gayfight

[redrooster]

You were the faggot complaining and whining about my sexy avatar pics mate :lol:

You were also the one who needed a SRL loss to get enough blood to the organ to celebrate with some post Casino sax. Nothing gets more gay than that

:gayfight

that chic looks okay but it still doesn't mean you're not gay. i've seen your photo John, and you look like you fit in with the crowd from west hollywood. all that's missing is your leather vest. and don't knock post leonard-norris casino sex. i think it's great.

[JohnThomas1]

i've seen your photo John, and you look like you fit in with the crowd from west hollywood. all that's missing is your leather vest.
What happened to the Rooster i used to know way back when i posted that pic? You told me i looked fantastic! :|

:lol:

and don't knock post leonard-norris casino sex. i think it's great.
Hey, if you could handle the pain and he the smell, who am i to criticise?

:hi:

[redrooster]

That's crazy unless you're actually john thomas because only john thomas says things like that because he's a big loser.

Lethal favors Chavez and I favor Camacho, which I've been doing since I got here. If we're the same person that means one of us is lying to put up a front.

[la-califa]

If the five top fighters have all the skills plus were so huge that thier fights were more of "events" than fights. The list would have to be: 1. Muhammed Ali, 2. Roberto Duran 3. Sugar Ray Leonard. 4. Marvin hagler 5. Julio Cesar Chavez. Although there are fighters more skilled, these fighters transcended the sport & elevated boxing to another level with the huge stage inwhich they put boxing in. Fighter like Jones, Whitaker & Hearns all had tremendous talent but these five put on bouts that put boxing on the world stage.

[brownpimp88]

If the five top fighters have all the skills plus were so huge that thier fights were more of "events" than fights. The list would have to be: 1. Muhammed Ali, 2. Roberto Duran 3. Sugar Ray Leonard. 4. Marvin hagler 5. Julio Cesar Chavez. Although there are fighters more skilled, these fighters transcended the sport & elevated boxing to another level with the huge stage inwhich they put boxing in. Fighter like Jones, Whitaker & Hearns all had tremendous talent but these five put on bouts that put boxing on the world stage.
Roberto Duran really wasn't this big draw in boxing, its the truth. During the 1970's, he was just a normal champ defending his belt and getting average paychecks for a world champ. It was his fights with the fab 4 that made him 'popular' and he lost almost all of those fights.

[Luigi1985]

Roberto Duran really wasn't this big draw in boxing, its the truth. During the 1970's, he was just a normal champ defending his belt and getting average paychecks for a world champ. It was his fights with the fab 4 that made him 'popular' and he lost almost all of those fights.



Because he was by far the smallest out of the 4. He wasn´t a pussy like Hearns, who fought at 147 lbs with the height of 6´2. Can you immagine PBF having the balls and move up to 160 lbs for example and fight Pavlik? I can´t...

[Pat_Lowe]

Because he was by far the smallest out of the 4. He wasn´t a pussy like Hearns, who fought at 147 lbs with the height of 6´2. Can you immagine PBF having the balls and move up to 160 lbs for example and fight Pavlik? I can´t...

Being able to make welterweight makes Hearns a pussy? Wake up to yourself! Oh and Mayweather has moved from 130 to 154, thats alot of weight especially when you consider he wasn't drained at 130 and that it was his best weight.

[Luigi1985]

Being able to make welterweight makes Hearns a pussy? Wake up to yourself! Oh and Mayweather has moved from 130 to 154, thats alot of weight especially when you consider he wasn't drained at 130 and that it was his best weight.


You know, when someone posts so stupid, I can answer also silly. He sounded like Duran was naturally in the same weight class than the other 3´s, what like we all know wasn´t so...

[Pat_Lowe]

You know, when someone posts so stupid, I can answer also silly. He sounded like Duran was naturally in the same weight class than the other 3´s, what like we all know wasn´t so...

Well if thats the case then my bad, I didn't detect the sarcasm. Sorry.

[Luigi1985]

Well if thats the case then my bad, I didn't detect the sarcasm. Sorry.


No problem! :thumbsup

[brownpimp88]

Because he was by far the smallest out of the 4. He wasn´t a pussy like Hearns, who fought at 147 lbs with the height of 6´2. Can you immagine PBF having the balls and move up to 160 lbs for example and fight Pavlik? I can´t...
I'm just saying roberto duran wasn't a big money draw, cuz the truth is julio cesar chavez, ray leonard and mike tyson were far more popular than him.

[Luigi1985]

I'm just saying roberto duran wasn't a big money draw, cuz the truth is julio cesar chavez, ray leonard and mike tyson were far more popular than him.


But it sounded a bit disrespectful, I mean, he was by far the smallest and he was the one who went up in weight, no shame to lose there against Hagler in a close fight at 160 lbs, and against a puncher like Hearns...

[brownpimp88]

But it sounded a bit disrespectful, I mean, he was by far the smallest and he was the one who went up in weight, no shame to lose there against Hagler in a close fight at 160 lbs, and against a puncher like Hearns...
Well Benitez was only 1 weight class above him and he beat duran fairly easily. It was after this fight that duran would go on to beat moore and cuevas, so you can make excuses but, duran was still a worldclass fighter when benitez outboxed him. It is this fight that usually tells me that whitaker would beat duran head to head at welterweight or 154. Duran never did so good against the 'movers'. He was always looked great against the brawlers.

[Luigi1985]

Well Benitez was only 1 weight class above him and he beat duran fairly easily. It was after this fight that duran would go on to beat moore and cuevas, so you can make excuses but, duran was still a worldclass fighter when benitez outboxed him. It is this fight that usually tells me that whitaker would beat duran head to head at welterweight or 154. Duran never did so good against the 'movers'. He was always looked great against the brawlers.


Yeah, but what´s your point now with this post? That Duran is overrated? Yeah, for me, he´s also a bit overrated. But the last thing you can criticize him for, is for losing against Hagler, SRL and Hearns, that was just my point...

[la-califa]

Yeah, but what´s your point now with this post? That Duran is overrated? Yeah, for me, he´s also a bit overrated. But the last thing you can criticize him for, is for losing against Hagler, SRL and Hearns, that was just my point... Duran overrated?! Yes at Welterwieght he was beatable at times, But at Lightweight he was practically industructable! & the Welterweight performance in Montreal will forever cement Duran's position among the elite. As far a popularity goes, after some victories, it was almost a national holiday when Duran returned to Panama!