Drew101's All-Time 140lb Tournament Thread.

[Drew101]

It's just about that time again...:D

This time, we'll be focusing upon the jr. welterweights, and determining who, among them, is the very best at the weight. All fights will be fifteen rounds; if there are any contingencies, they'll be mentioned when the match-ups are made.

For the sake of my own sanity, only 16 fighters will be included in the tournament. A few ground rules for choosing the participants- choices will be limited to those fighters who fought at 140lb when it was an established division; and, really, the fighters picked should have established a reasonable body of work while fighting at the weight. DLH looked about as good as he ever did at 140lbs...but, that doesn't necessarily mean that he should be picked over fighters who stayed in that division for a much longer period.

Also, no fighters who are active at, or around the weight, will be selected (apologies in advance to all the PBH and Hitman Hatton fans.)

So, as I see it, the following fighters are pretty much locks to be included...

Julio Cesar Chavez
Aaron Pryor
Barney Ross
Kostya Tszyu
Nicolino Locce
Antonio Cervantes
Dulio Loi
Jose Napoles
Wilfred Benitez
Tony Canzoneri
Carlos Ortiz

So...that leaves us with six to choose.

The following certainly could be considered for inclusion:

Bruno Arcari
Juan Martin Coggi
Frankie Randall
Meldrick Taylor
Eddie Perkins
Saensak Maungsaurin
Saoul Mamby
Jackie "Kid" Berg

And, I'm certain that cases could be made for others, as well.

So, shall we begin this discussion?

[Dempsey1238]

Barney Ross Wins.

Would also add Callahan.

[Luigi1985]

Great idea. But you have 11, and now we vote another 5 fighters for the tournament out of the group you wrote, right?

[Drew101]

Great idea. But you have 11, and now we vote another 5 fighters for the tournament out of the group you wrote, right?

Indeed. One of these days, I'll learn how to count. :lol:

[Drew101]

Great idea. But you have 11, and now we vote another 5 fighters for the tournament out of the group you wrote, right?

And, if you can think of other fighters who could, or should, be included on the list, then by all means feel free to mention them.

[Luigi1985]

Indeed. One of these days, I'll learn how to count. :lol:


No problem! :lol:

[Luigi1985]

And, if you can think of other fighters who could, or should, be included on the list, then by all means feel free to mention them.



Julio Cesar Chavez
Aaron Pryor
Barney Ross
Kostya Tszyu
Nicolino Locce
Antonio Cervantes
Dulio Loi
Jose Napoles
Wilfred Benitez
Tony Canzoneri
Carlos Ortiz


^
I

these fighters are sure, I would also nominate these fighters:

Bruno Arcari
John Henry Lewis
Eddie Perkins
Tippy Larkin
Willie Joyce

[scartissue]

Drew, Perkins, Taylor, Berg and Mamby are all excellent choices to fill out the 16. I would also mention the very underrated Carlos Hernandez who could knock you dead with one shot. Also, some top contenders to consider are Esteban DeJesus, Hector Thompson, Alfredo Urbina, Kenny Lane and Bunny Grant.

Scartissue

[Nemesis]

Ricky Hatton?

[rydersonthestorm]

I would consider hatton a top 16 light welter weight for sure, i don't get why everyone is so up on tzysu sure he was a great champ but his big wins didin't exactly come against the very best and losing to hatton and phillips puts him lower than alot of you in my book.

[JohnThomas1]

I would consider hatton a top 16 light welter weight for sure, i don't get why everyone is so up on tzysu sure he was a great champ but his big wins didin't exactly come against the very best and losing to hatton and phillips puts him lower than alot of you in my book.

KT's record was impeccable for it's time. It's funny how plenty told us this one would beat him or that one but now he seems to get little credit for beating them.

[PowerPuncher]

And, if you can think of other fighters who could, or should, be included on the list, then by all means feel free to mention them.

Sugar Ray Robinson (GOAT, fought at 140 & sub 140 early in his career. Would have been a complete monster at the weight, would a green SRR clean up this tournament? I think so)

Floyd Mayweather (ATG in our time, maybe his best at 140)

Pernell Whitaker (Top 10 ATG, maybe at his best at this weight)

Henry Armstrong (Wasnt Ross 140lb champ? Armstrong beat him weighing 135ish)

Roberto Duran (skipper the division but he probably could have made 140 for his Leonard fight and was drained at 135 for years. Its beyond debate that Duran would have chewed up pretty much any 140lber on your list)

Wilfred Benitez - 1 of the best 140lbers ever

[JohnThomas1]

Roberto Duran (skipper the division but he probably could have made 140 for his Leonard fight and was drained at 135 for years. Its beyond debate that Duran would have chewed up pretty much any 140lber on your list)


Benitez, Ortiz and Napoles would make fair debate. Not on the list but we could add Armstrong and Williams at a pinch. Duran would certainly be a frightening nut to crack at 140 tho. He'd barely lose a shred of effectiveness, maybe none.

[JohnThomas1]

Benitez is on the list BTW.

[Bill Butcher]

It's just about that time again...:D

This time, we'll be focusing upon the jr. welterweights, and determining who, among them, is the very best at the weight. All fights will be fifteen rounds; if there are any contingencies, they'll be mentioned when the match-ups are made.

For the sake of my own sanity, only 16 fighters will be included in the tournament. A few ground rules for choosing the participants- choices will be limited to those fighters who fought at 140lb when it was an established division; and, really, the fighters picked should have established a reasonable body of work while fighting at the weight. DLH looked about as good as he ever did at 140lbs...but, that doesn't necessarily mean that he should be picked over fighters who stayed in that division for a much longer period.

Also, no fighters who are active at, or around the weight, will be selected (apologies in advance to all the PBH and Hitman Hatton fans.)

So, as I see it, the following fighters are pretty much locks to be included...

Julio Cesar Chavez
Aaron Pryor
Barney Ross
Kostya Tszyu
Nicolino Locce
Antonio Cervantes
Dulio Loi
Jose Napoles
Wilfred Benitez
Tony Canzoneri
Carlos Ortiz


Of this list Id defo go for chavez, hes the only 1 on the list who makes my all time top 10 p4p & I believe he was the goat at this weight aswell.

[Drew101]

OK...the reason why hatton is DQ'd isn't because of his accomplishments, but, rather because he's still active at the weight.

Floyd and Sweet Pea may not receive consideration because, while they were superlative at 140;bs, their body of work at the weight just isn't sufficient for inclusion. The same, to an extant, could also be said for DLH, and maybe even Duran and Robinson.

Still...we've got a while to discuss this, for the tournament won't start to later on this week. :good

[PowerPuncher]

Benitez is on the list BTW.

Yep I missed him

[PowerPuncher]

Benitez, Ortiz and Napoles would make fair debate. Not on the list but we could add Armstrong and Williams at a pinch. Duran would certainly be a frightening nut to crack at 140 tho. He'd barely lose a shred of effectiveness, maybe none.

The only thing that annoys me about 130/140/154 debates, is the fighter that would have fought there not being included.

[JohnThomas1]

The only thing that annoys me about 130/140/154 debates, is the fighter that would have fought there not being included.

Yeah it's a fine line isn't it. Do you include glaringly obvious guys like Duran at 140, Robinson at 154 and the like. Blind Freddy knows they could have fought there, but....lol

I think it's one in all in, or none.

[PowerPuncher]

Floyd and Sweet Pea may not receive consideration because, while they were superlative at 140;bs, their body of work at the weight just isn't sufficient for inclusion. The same, to an extant, could also be said for DLH, and maybe even Duran and Robinson.


The thing they showed PEAK form at the weight so PBF, Pea, Delahoya should be included.

The funny thing is Chavez could win your comp YET Whitaker would blatantly school him at 140

[PowerPuncher]

Yeah it's a fine line isn't it. Do you include glaringly obvious guys like Duran at 140, Robinson at 154 and the like. Blind Freddy knows they could have fought there, but....lol

I think it's one in all in, or none.

I say all in it makes it a more exciting comp. By all means take the actual version that competed there

[TBooze]

Hardly ever mentioned, but Buddy McGirt peaked at 140 IMO and would easily get in my top 16 at 140lbs. Zack Padilla never got the chance to show how goods he was, but on what he did, he too would be top 16 in my book.

Others that deserve mention include Pinky Mitchell; Mushy Callahan; Duilio Loi; Bruno Arcari; Roger Mayweather and Frankie Randall

[bumdujour]

It's just about that time again...:D

This time, we'll be focusing upon the jr. welterweights, and determining who, among them, is the very best at the weight. All fights will be fifteen rounds; if there are any contingencies, they'll be mentioned when the match-ups are made.

For the sake of my own sanity, only 16 fighters will be included in the tournament. A few ground rules for choosing the participants- choices will be limited to those fighters who fought at 140lb when it was an established division; and, really, the fighters picked should have established a reasonable body of work while fighting at the weight. DLH looked about as good as he ever did at 140lbs...but, that doesn't necessarily mean that he should be picked over fighters who stayed in that division for a much longer period.

Also, no fighters who are active at, or around the weight, will be selected (apologies in advance to all the PBH and Hitman Hatton fans.)

So, as I see it, the following fighters are pretty much locks to be included...

Julio Cesar Chavez
Aaron Pryor
Barney Ross
Kostya Tszyu
Nicolino Locce
Antonio Cervantes
Dulio Loi
Jose Napoles
Wilfred Benitez
Tony Canzoneri
Carlos Ortiz

So...that leaves us with six to choose.

The following certainly could be considered for inclusion:

Bruno Arcari
Juan Martin Coggi
Frankie Randall
Meldrick Taylor
Eddie Perkins
Saensak Maungsaurin
Saoul Mamby
Jackie "Kid" Berg

And, I'm certain that cases could be made for others, as well.

So, shall we begin this discussion?

juan martin coggi???

always liked him, but he wasnt special IMO.

[Drew101]

juan martin coggi???

always liked him, but he wasnt special IMO.

He did have a couple of extended reigns...figured I could throw his name out there into the mix to round out the bottom part of the draw.

[bumdujour]

He did have a couple of extended reigns...figured I could throw his name out there into the mix to round out the bottom part of the draw.

most of his opposition sucked IMO. he usually beat second tier guys. when up against a top level guy, he lost.

[My dinner with Conteh]

About time this one was done, it's the most evenly contested of them all.


ps. Including the likes of Ray Robinson will make it shit...so don't. :good

pps. Include Terry Marsh instead. :happy

[Quick Cash]

I don't have him in my top 16 of all time, but Camacho might be an element you want to consider putting in there. He was unique.

[JohnThomas1]

Well, i think people should only rank in the divisions the fighters fought in, if they didn´t fight their because they skipped or the division was not existent than they shouldn´t rank there. In a tournament only the fighters should compete who fought there as often that we can judge their abilities at that weight.

What would you say if i said Duran had about 20 fights at Junior Welterweight including a win over future champion Saoul Mamby? 20 fights at 140 isn't something to scoff at, even without a title.

20 fights is half a career by many modern standards. I didn't realise he'd had so many there.

[TBooze]

What would you say if i said Duran had about 20 fights at Junior Welterweight including a win over future champion Saoul Mamby? 20 fights at 140 isn't something to scoff at, even without a title.

20 fights is half a career by many modern standards. I didn't realise he'd had so many there.

I would say Duran had no fights as a Junior Welter. He pretty much moved straight up to 147 after DeJesusIII. And I would not include his non title fights while at 135lbs as Junior Welter fights.

Mind you I did read ring atricle from 78ish hyping Duran's move to 140lbs and potential match-ups.

Sure there is a technical argument to say they were 140lbs fights, and Duran fought legitmate 140lbers of the time; but in reality those matches were catchweight (as in no contracted weight obligation) or over weight Lightweight clashes.

[JohnThomas1]

I would say Duran had no fights as a Junior Welter. He pretty much moved straight up to 147 after DeJesusIII. And I would not include his non title fights while at 135lbs as Junior Welter fights.

Mind you I did read ring atricle from 78ish hyping Duran's move to 140lbs and potential match-ups.

Sure there is a technical argument to say they were 140lbs fights, and Duran fought legitmate 140lbers of the time; but in reality those matches were catchweight (as in no contracted weight obligation) or over weight Lightweight clashes.

Well if Duran and his opponent were both weighing between 135 and 140 wouldn't you be able to use those bouts as a barometer of how he'd go, at, erm, junior welterweight? It is Junior Welterweight. Granted his actual achievements there are not significant but we sure know he fought there plenty of times.

Having said all this i can understand him being excluded, just pointing out he is very traveled at junior welter.

[Vantage_West]

Ricky Hatton?i have always felt you shouldnt put a fighter in a all time great tourny when he hasnt retired yet...he could beat mayweather out box pavlik and knock out maskaev and still not be in the tourny because the dust has to settle first.

[JohnThomas1]

You can judge his abilities by this many fights on that weightclass so he could be included into a tournament. If the opposition and his performances were good enough to earn him a ranking there he should be ranked there - i personally don´t rank p4p fighters in divisions at all, although i have problems with that the more i think about.

Yeah, whatever Drew decides i'll be happy with.

[TBooze]

Yeah, whatever Drew decides i'll be happy with.

Yeah as long as Zack Padilla is there;)

[JohnThomas1]

Yeah as long as Zack Padilla is there;)

:lol:

:good

[Drew101]

Bump...yeah, of the big names that I excluded, Duran would be the only one who I might consider for inclusion, since he did fight there quite regularly, and beat Mamby. Hell, his first fight with Dejesus was at junior welterweight. Robinson fought at 140lbs quite a bit, but I really don't want to include him, because that would skew the tournament.

Whitaker and PBF didn't really stay there long enough to be included, and, fights against Pineda and Brazier (in the case of Whitaker), and Bruseles, Gatti, and Corley (in the case of PBF) just aren't enough of a guage to determine, for certain, how they'd fare against the very top tier at 140lbs. Plus, it would also skew the tourney, to some extant.

Whitaker's already been in two tournaments, and Mayweather's going to be in the 130lb tourney. So, they're out.

I'm on the fence about DLH. He beat Gonzalez and Chavez at the weight, but he didn't really stay there enough for me to include him.

[TBooze]

I'm on the fence about DLH. He beat Gonzalez and Chavez at the weight, but he didn't really stay there enough for me to include him.

Well he was there longer Duran, indeed Duran never fought in the Junior Welterweight division...

[dmille]

Julio Cesar Chavez
Aaron Pryor
Barney Ross
Kostya Tszyu
Nicolino Locce
Antonio Cervantes
Dulio Loi
Jose Napoles
Wilfred Benitez
Tony Canzoneri
Carlos Ortiz


^
I

these fighters are sure, I would also nominate these fighters:

Bruno Arcari
John Henry Lewis
Eddie Perkins
Tippy Larkin
Willie Joyce


John Henry Lewis? WTF?

[Dempsey1238]

Lewis was a light heavyweight.

[PowerPuncher]

I would say Duran had no fights as a Junior Welter. He pretty much moved straight up to 147 after DeJesusIII. And I would not include his non title fights while at 135lbs as Junior Welter fights.

Mind you I did read ring atricle from 78ish hyping Duran's move to 140lbs and potential match-ups.

Sure there is a technical argument to say they were 140lbs fights, and Duran fought legitmate 140lbers of the time; but in reality those matches were catchweight (as in no contracted weight obligation) or over weight Lightweight clashes.

Most of Henry Armstrongs Featherweight fights were at 130+, he only competed at 126 and below on 16 occasions. I have never seen a poll on Top featherweights excluding Henry Armstrong

Sugar Ray Robinson fought around 26 times at 140lbs and below and was beating lightweight and former welterweight champions at a weight of 140lbs. Also do we seriously believe that when he was 144lbs he couldnt have made 140lbs when today 140lbers weigh 155 in the ring?

Duran made 140 for 10 years, if he didnt have to strip an extra 5lbs he would be even better than his 135 days.

[Drew101]

Well he was there longer Duran, indeed Duran never fought in the Junior Welterweight division...

If you fight from 136-140, then you're fighting as a junior welterweight.

[PowerPuncher]

Whitaker and PBF didn't really stay there long enough to be included, and, fights against Pineda and Brazier (in the case of Whitaker), and Bruseles, Gatti, and Corley (in the case of PBF) just aren't enough of a guage to determine, for certain, how they'd fare against the very top tier at 140lbs. Plus, it would also skew the tourney, to some extant.

Whitaker's already been in two tournaments, and Mayweather's going to be in the 130lb tourney. So, they're out.
.

Whitaker and Mayweather did fight at 140lbs and could have made 140 at their 147 fights. Mayweather could make 140lbs in his next fight if he wanted too, thats his natural weight

Not to mention Mayweather fought Corrales who weighed 147lbs while fighting at 130 and Castillo who weighed around 150lbs while fighting at 135.

I also would mention Gatti is an underrated win on Mayweathers record and not quite the C Class bum hes got labelled as today. Gattis beat ranked fighters like Dorin, Leija, Ward, Patterson, Rodriguez, Ruelas, Millet. Thats some decent contenders, Dorin was an unbeaten top3 in the lightweight division and got robbed against Spadafora during a unification title fight

[TBooze]

If you fight from 136-140, then you're fighting as a junior welterweight.

Not true, you get catchweight matches which Duran fought in when having non title fights as the Lightweight World Champion...

Between 1971 and 1979 Duran and the boxing world considered Duran a Lightweight; January 1979 until LeonardII Duran was considered a Welterweight, at no time was he ever considered a Junior Welterweight...


Although I would concede he was a Super Lightweight;)

[JohnThomas1]

Not true, you get catchweight matches which Duran fought in when having non title fights as the Lightweight World Champion...

Between 1971 and 1979 Duran and the boxing world considered Duran a Lightweight; January 1979 until LeonardII Duran was considered a Welterweight, at no time was he ever considered a Junior Welterweight...


Although I would concede he was a Super Lightweight;)


I'll give you one thing, you're one of a kind.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I'll give you one thing, you're one of a kind.


A pain in the arse you mean.

[Drew101]

I also would mention Gatti is an underrated win on Mayweathers record and not quite the C Class bum hes got labelled as today. Gattis beat ranked fighters like Dorin, Leija, Ward, Patterson, Rodriguez, Ruelas, Millet. Thats some decent contenders, Dorin was an unbeaten top3 in the lightweight division and got robbed against Spadafora during a unification title fight

Agreed about Gatti. His run at 140lbs was pretty impressive..especially given the fact that he'd been written off before moving down to that weight. It's one of Mayweather's better wins; especially given how impressive he was in that fight.

But are the Corley and Gatti fights, on their own, impressive enough to warrant inclusion into an all-time tournament at 140lbs, where the main criteria for entry is accomplishments at the weight? The same question has to be asked of Whitaker, too..since his body of work at the weight consisted of Brazier and Pineda.

For that matter, the same question has to be asked of DLH, since Chavez was on the slide, and so, to a lesser extant, was Gonzalez.

I don't know. But, again, the main criteria is accomplishment, not necessarily talent, or head-to-head ability. If I were basing it on the latter two categories, they'd be in for certain.

[JohnThomas1]

A pain in the arse you mean.

:lol:

And just think, you used to call me Mr Pedant lol. Fighting between 135 and 140 doesn't constitute fighting at Junior Welter because you hold the 135 title and the world says you are a lightweight :lol:

[PowerPuncher]

Agreed about Gatti. His run at 140lbs was pretty impressive..especially given the fact that he'd been written off before moving down to that weight. It's one of Mayweather's better wins; especially given how impressive he was in that fight.

But are the Corley and Gatti fights, on their own, impressive enough to warrant inclusion into an all-time tournament at 140lbs, where the main criteria for entry is accomplishments at the weight? The same question has to be asked of Whitaker, too..since his body of work at the weight consisted of Brazier and Pineda.

For that matter, the same question has to be asked of DLH, since Chavez was on the slide, and so, to a lesser extant, was Gonzalez.

I don't know. But, again, the main criteria is accomplishment, not necessarily talent, or head-to-head ability. If I were basing it on the latter two categories, they'd be in for certain.

The fact is come Decemember Mayweather will have fought 5 of the best 140lbers in the last 10 years - Delahoya, Hatton, Judah, Gatti, Mitchell. Those fights would have happened at 140lbs if not for politics (Hatton&Cotto wouldnt fight at 140 in 1995 so he had to go after Judah via Mitchell) and chasing Delahoya.

[TBooze]

:lol:

And just think, you used to call me Mr Pedant lol. Fighting between 135 and 140 doesn't constitute fighting at Junior Welter because you hold the 135 title and the world says you are a lightweight :lol:

You may laugh, but you know it is true.;)

[JohnThomas1]

You may laugh, but you know it is true.;)

Laff, i'm in stitches

:lol:

[TBooze]

Laff, i'm in stitches

:lol:

:good