does marvin hagler defeat sugar ray leonard if fights i5 rounds..

[haglerforever]

had bad feeling about this for years,I think Yes,hagler was not on his game that night but leonard would only fight in short bursts & then run.leonard was slowing down and hagler would haved KO`d sugar if there had not been unfortunate deaths and 15 shortened to 12 .any thoughts gents...??

[Addie]

I have no idea, but I know what happened over the 12 round distance.

[PowerPuncher]

Hagler probably wins over 15 but doesnt stop Leonard, then again maybe Ray would have got a second wind and edged a couple more rounds after the 12th, maybe Hagler starts even later in a 15 round fight

[Dempsey1238]

Its will always be one of thsos what if's. Like Dempsey vs Wills or the VK Lewis eye cut thing.

[Stevie G]

On that particular night,I doubt whether the distance would have made any difference.

[Bill Butcher]

I have no idea, but I know what happened over the 12 round distance.

This ^

& prime for prime, Leonard outboxes him over 12 or 15.

[Addie]

Its will always be one of thsos what if's. Like Dempsey vs Wills or the VK Lewis eye cut thing.

I just don't understand why we get all the moaning about Ray's demands now? Marvin had no problems with any of it. He was confident he'd knock Ray out inside 12, regardless of the gloves, regardless of the size of the ring, and so did the fans and critics. Now, we talk more about "what if" and the decision than we comment on the actual achievement of a former Welterweight moving up and beating a Middleweight who hadn't lost in 11 years despite a lay off. Madness.

[redrooster]

prime for prime Hagler wouldnt need the 15 round limit anyways. based on what I seen in his short career against Geraldo, lalonde, Duran, Howard, Norris, Camacho, leonard's chin always been somewhat of a problem. I feel Hagler would take him out early

[Addie]

prime for prime Hagler wouldnt need the 15 round limit anyways. based on what I seen in his short career against Geraldo, lalonde, Duran, Howard, Norris, Camacho, leonard's chin always been somewhat of a problem. I feel Hagler would take him out early

:lol::lol::lol: ...We want MORE!!

[Bill Butcher]

I just don't understand why we get all the moaning about Ray's demands now? Marvin had no problems with any of it. He was confident he'd knock Ray out inside 12, regardless of the gloves, regardless of the size of the ring, and so did the fans and critics. Now, we talk more about "what if" and the decision than we comment on the actual achievement of a former Welterweight moving up and beating a Middleweight who hadn't lost in 11 years despite a lay off. Madness.

Leonard isnt a well liked fighter by the majority but he was the best fighter of the 80s & the haters just have to accept that shit.

He beat all the best fighters at one point & showed the heart of a champion in his rare losses.

[Addie]

Leonard isnt a well liked fighter by the majority but he was the best fighter of the 80s & the haters just have to accept that shit.

He beat all the best fighters at one point & showed the heart of a champion in his rare losses.

Bullshit. Leonard showed his weaknesses against Norris and Camacho, just ask Rooster. :lol::lol: It's fucking awesome that he gives Hagler a free pass for supposedly being shot against Leonard, but then when Leonard fights Camacho in 1997 after being inactive for 6 years...it's a talking point. Comedy at its best!

[redrooster]

Bullshit. Leonard showed his weaknesses against Norris and Camacho, just ask Rooster. :lol::lol: It's fucking awesome that he gives Hagler a free pass for supposedly being shot against Leonard, but then when Leonard fights Camacho in 1997 after being inactive for 6 years...it's a talking point. Comedy at its best!

Sorry but it's true. leonard had no trouble boxing and making a fool out of someone as long as they were slow of foot and hand but against my man Norris? Well, that's a whole other story.

back to back Duran and Norris. Look what what Ray does with Duran. Now look what Terry does to Ray. Terry even come up and beat Ray at his best weight

Sleek, fast, dangerous, atheletic types - Ray can't compete

With Camacho I'll cut him some slack. He was washed up but so was Camacho. Prime for prime, Camacho still too fast for him. Before ten is over, Hector will open that ass wide open and make Ray his for life

[Addie]

Sorry but it's true. leonard had no trouble boxing and making a fool out of someone as long as they were slow of foot and hand but against my man Norris? Well, that's a whole other story.


:lol::lol::lol: More MORE!!!


back to back Duran and Norris. Look what what Ray does with Duran. Now look what Terry does to Ray. Terry even come up and beat Ray at his best weight

:lol::lol::lol:

He was washed up but so was Camacho. Prime for prime, Camacho still too fast for him. Before ten is over, Hector will open that ass wide open and make Ray his for life

:admin:admin:admin Camacho beats Ray.

..I'll give you some credit Rooster, your absolutely hilarious.

[redrooster]

:lol::lol::lol: More MORE!!!



:lol::lol::lol:



:admin:admin:admin Camacho beats Ray.

..I'll give you some credit Rooster, your absolutely hilarious.

no fan of his wants to admit their man's shortcomings

[Bill Butcher]

no fan of his wants to admit their man's shortcomings

You`d be as well staying out of threads involving Leonard, Hagler or Norris (in fact make that most threads, period).... not ONE poster respects your views, you are a complete laughing stock.

I for one will not respond to anymore of your delusional posts with anything other than this > :nut

Class dismissed, now fuck off :good

[haglerforever]

rooster you got to be kidding me.I am no leonard fan ,but prime vs prime camocho & norris were not in his class not even close....

[Mr Butt]

hagler may of won if the fight had gone fifteen but the odds in one way were against hagler to get a decision. as long as leonard kept it close i believe leonard was always going to get the decision he was to much of a media idol/darling not to

[Bill Butcher]

rooster you got to be kidding me.I am no leonard fan ,but prime vs prime camocho & norris were not in his class not even close....

Ignore him, you will learn that his views on SRL are the most delusional of anyone that ever lived.

He ranked SRL about no49 on his fkd up list.... that alone tells you the boy is not at all well.

[Boxing Girl]

had bad feeling about this for years,I think Yes,hagler was not on his game that night but leonard would only fight in short bursts & then run.leonard was slowing down and hagler would haved KO`d sugar if there had not been unfortunate deaths and 15 shortened to 12 .any thoughts gents...??

I asked Hagler how he thought the rounds played a difference in the fight...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Robbi]

Addie. Don't even respond to Rooster. He gets more attention than anyone else on here due to his crazy remarks that are so wide of the mark that he must be biased or winding people up. Just ignore him. :good

[redrooster]

rooster you got to be kidding me.I am no leonard fan ,but prime vs prime camocho & norris were not in his class not even close....

That's what I thought at first but reviewing some of his fights I reconsidered.

Nobody expects struggles from the likes of Howard or lalonde either but they did happen. I didnt expect a slapper like Geraldo to do what he did to leonard, sending him careening backwards towards. If not for the ropes he would have flown out of the ring

Ray's chin was, how shall we say, not the best you could ask for. A jolting shot from pretty much anyone would cause him major problems. ESBers have a problem understanding this.

speed seemed to be a real problem for Sugar so he rarely ever took a fight against an opponent that had any. he shined against the likes of Green and Finch but seemed to founder when it came to Norris and frankly, I felt embarassed for him.

How would they ever explain this in the upcoming Sport's Illustrated? They didnt

Anyways, if you have to pursue a career in remedial boxing, there's probably something wrong with you

[Titan1]

had bad feeling about this for years,I think Yes,hagler was not on his game that night but leonard would only fight in short bursts & then run.leonard was slowing down and hagler would haved KO`d sugar if there had not been unfortunate deaths and 15 shortened to 12 .any thoughts gents...??

There is a possibility that Marvin would've kayoed Ray in a fifteen rounder, but knowing Ray, he definitely would be prepared for that distance.

[Boxed Ears]

That's what I thought at first but reviewing some of his fights I reconsidered.

Nobody expects struggles from the likes of Howard or lalonde either but they did happen. I didnt expect a slapper like Geraldo to do what he did to leonard, sending him careening backwards towards. If not for the ropes he would have flown out of the ring

Ray's chin was, how shall we say, not the best you could ask for. A jolting shot from pretty much anyone would cause him major problems. ESBers have a problem understanding this.

speed seemed to be a real problem for Sugar so he rarely ever took a fight against an opponent that had any. he shined against the likes of Green and Finch but seemed to founder when it came to Norris and frankly, I felt embarassed for him.

How would they ever explain this in the upcoming Sport's Illustrated? They didnt

Anyways, if you have to pursue a career in remedial boxing, there's probably something wrong with you

With Norris, he was eleven pounds under what he weighed against Lalonde and Norris was about ten years younger. Prior to Norris in 91, Leonard hadn't fought that low in 6-7 years. Come on now, be fair.

[duranimal]

hagler may of won if the fight had gone fifteen but the odds in one way were against hagler to get a decision. as long as leonard kept it close i believe leonard was always going to get the decision he was to much of a media idol/darling not to

Correct:good bizzness is bizzness a las vegas decision was always on the cards here, i recall a vegas cabbie telling me that, who's best for vegas win's in vegas & we've had all we can get out of hagler!! who'd he fight next!!! he's done with here!!! SRL is the draw & he'll get the bums on seats er present company accepted sir & that'll be $22.00 but you can make it a round $40.00 if you wish:mad:

[Stevie G]

That's what I thought at first but reviewing some of his fights I reconsidered.

Nobody expects struggles from the likes of Howard or lalonde either but they did happen. I didnt expect a slapper like Geraldo to do what he did to leonard, sending him careening backwards towards. If not for the ropes he would have flown out of the ring

Ray's chin was, how shall we say, not the best you could ask for. A jolting shot from pretty much anyone would cause him major problems. ESBers have a problem understanding this.

speed seemed to be a real problem for Sugar so he rarely ever took a fight against an opponent that had any. he shined against the likes of Green and Finch but seemed to founder when it came to Norris and frankly, I felt embarassed for him.

How would they ever explain this in the upcoming Sport's Illustrated? They didnt

Anyways, if you have to pursue a career in remedial boxing, there's probably something wrong with you
Let's be fair. I'm no fan of Leonard,but I did appreciate his boxing skills. He was shot by the time he got to Terry Norris.

[redrooster]

Correct:good bizzness is bizzness a las vegas decision was always on the cards here, i recall a vegas cabbie telling me that, who's best for vegas win's in vegas & we've had all we can get out of hagler!! who'd he fight next!!! he's done with here!!! SRL is the draw & he'll get the bums on seats er present company accepted sir & that'll be $22.00 but you can make it a round $40.00 if you wish:mad:

it was for the good of the sport. Nobody really wanted Hagler around to begin with

[Addie]

it was for the good of the sport. Nobody really wanted Hagler around to begin with

Leonard won the fight...inside the ring. :good

[redrooster]

Let's be fair. I'm no fan of Leonard,but I did appreciate his boxing skills. He was shot by the time he got to Terry Norris.

SG, my take on it was different. Put the pieces of the picture together-his problems against TH in his role as a boxer, the suspicious layoffs and comebacks, the selection of opponents for his comeback including Lalonde, the avoidance of quality name fighters, namely Nunn, and it all becomes clear: he couldnt handle an opponent whom he would have been forced to take the fight to.

34 or not, he was far from shot. You dont become shot by dominating Duran the way he did

I'm not knocking him, it just happened to be a stylistic weakness of his which I spoke of after his fight with Hagler.

The perfect example of this is his back to back fights with Duran & Norris. Look what happens when presented with different styles of opponent, one man a plodder the other, a speedster-fast and athletic.

Contrast how he fares against the two styles: In the first he shined, toying with another frustrated opponent, winning every round and in the second he gets shown up by another speedster. I strongly suspected he'd have problems and most likely wind up hurt.

It all boils down to styles. Ray had just never fought anyone with his particular style and in the end couldnt handle it as I had been saying.

I certainly can't award him something he doesnt deserve like fighter of the 80s if he cant handle a stern test :nono

I really can't respect a man that comes out of retirement just for scraps (Hagler)

A win over Micheal Nunn would have made a believer out of me, then he would actually deserve his title of fighter of the decade. People like Bill Butcher are way too anxious to push his name through.

A much better choice would be Hagler who was the much more proven fighter.

[redrooster]

Leonard won the fight...inside the ring. :good

I'm glad you feel that way. Now all you have to do is convince the rest of us.

Close but no cigar

[red cobra]

I have always thought he would have. (Hagler would have defeated Leonard over 15, that is)

[GladiatoR]

Hagler never lost.

:think

[redrooster]

With Norris, he was eleven pounds under what he weighed against Lalonde and Norris was about ten years younger. Prior to Norris in 91, Leonard hadn't fought that low in 6-7 years. Come on now, be fair.

I am being fair. Leonard was well above his best weight for lalonde. This was not his normal weight and far from his best and had come down to 160 for his next two fights. Even that was too high as the extra speed just slowed him down. 154 was more like it

Also remember Leonard had not lost a fight in 11 years and for people to complain there was something wrong with the man is madness

None of the fans or the crtics gave Terry a chance at winning but TNT Norris did one better than Leonard the night he upset Hagler by DOMINATING

It's true that Leonard was washed up in the Camacho fight but then so was Camacho so it all evens out. p4p, Hector was just better and he knocked him out because he wasnt playing games in there. Give the man his due, he was a great champion

[Addie]

I am being fair. Leonard was well above his best weight for lalonde. This was not his normal weight and far from his best and had come down to 160 for his next two fights. Even that was too high as the extra speed just slowed him down. 154 was more like it

Also remember Leonard had not lost a fight in 11 years and for people to complain there was something wrong with the man is madness

None of the fans or the crtics gave Terry a chance at winning but TNT Norris did one better than Leonard the night he upset Hagler by DOMINATING

It's true that Leonard was washed up in the Camacho fight but then so was Camacho so it all evens out. p4p, Hector was just better and he knocked him out because he wasnt playing games in there. Give the man his due, he was a great champion

...Clown.

[Danny]

Its well known Hagler wanted 15 rounds but Leonard would not committ to that. Therefore, that would suggest Ray was concerned about those three championship rounds.

We cannot say for sure, but I'd be inclined to believe Hagler would have got the stoppage or he would have done enough to get the decision!

[redrooster]

...Clown.

Don't be a bad sport; they're your words when applied to Hagler in his fight with Sugar Ray. Take a look, it's on the first page of this thread. I was just pointing out the smilarities: unbeaten in 11 years, and none of the press gave him a chance.

I think it's a little harder to justify Leonard's loss tho than Hagler's since with Hagler the loss can rightfully be disputed. Norris just plain kicked his ass! :lol:

I'll tell you what it was: it was the speed that did him in!!! :yep

[redrooster]

it looks like Leonard isnt the only fighter that can claim a miraculous, historic upset

[mcvey]

Don't be a bad sport; they're your words when applied to Hagler in his fight with Sugar Ray. Take a look, it's on the first page of this thread. I was just pointing out the smilarities: unbeaten in 11 years, and none of the press gave him a chance.

I think it's a little harder to justify Leonard's loss tho than Hagler's since with Hagler the loss can rightfully be disputed. Norris just plain kicked his ass! :lol:

I'll tell you what it was: it was the speed that did him in!!! :yep
Leonard was washed up when he met china chin Norris.

[redrooster]

Leonard was washed up when he met china chin Norris.

Leonard hadnt lost a fight in 11 years. The press and fans gave Norris no chance and for anyone to say otherwise is madness

[Robbi]

Leonard hadnt lost a fight in 11 years. The press and fans gave Norris no chance and for anyone to say otherwise is madness

Hadn't lost a fight in 11 years? Hagler hadn't lost a fight for 11 years either prior to facing Leonard. What are you trying to say? Because Leonard hadn't lost in 11 years it means he was still in his prime? The press and fans gave Leonard no chance against Hagler too......that isn't debatable.

Sorry, yer own medicine returned. :good

[MrMarvel]

Hagler beat Leonard convincingly over 12 rounds. I don't expect Leonard do get it together any better over the last three. If anything, he was wilting.

[Robbi]

Hagler beat Leonard convincingly over 12 rounds. I don't expect Leonard do get it together any better over the last three. If anything, he was wilting.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::good

[redrooster]

Hadn't lost a fight in 11 years? Hagler hadn't lost a fight for 11 years either prior to facing Leonard. What are you trying to say? Because Leonard hadn't lost in 11 years it means he was still in his prime? The press and fans gave Leonard no chance against Hagler too......that isn't debatable.

Sorry, yer own medicine returned. :good

My own medicine? Who do you think I stole that sorry line from? Your friend who you told me to ignore

[redrooster]

Hagler beat Leonard convincingly over 12 rounds. I don't expect Leonard do get it together any better over the last three. If anything, he was wilting.

I had it close with leonard winning the last round but losing the fight (close)since round 7 which I scored even, Hagler took the last four straight-rounds 8-11

[Robbi]

I had it close with leonard winning the last round but losing the fight (close)since round 7 which I scored even, Hagler took the last four straight-rounds 8-11

Hagler, the shell, won the fight? :lol:

[redrooster]

Hagler, the shell, won the fight? :lol:

Hagler the lifeless shell with non existent reflexes whom Leonard waited 5 years for to dry up, won the fight close but it was because RL didnt quite do enough.

there were three rounds up for grabs neither man won clearly: rounds 1, 3, & 7.

I can't give Leonard rounds on the basis that he made Hagler look inept or made him miss by feet. The Weaver triplets did that too.

He didnt score enough to win. Scoring is what it's all about. Ray probably outpunched Hagler altogether but look how many were taken on the gloves.

I refused to give RL the 7th because he punched late after the bell. Hitting after the bell is too late to be considered scoring and considered a foul for which points should be taken. let's face it, it was that close only because Hagler slowed the pace so much and did so little.

Deep down you know I'm right. I've always been right.

Fighter of the decade based on that? You must be joking. an impressive performance, just not a winning one.

[laxpdx]

At that point, the number of rounds was irrelevant. Hagler was finished.

[haglerforever]

NO doubt ,hagler was not the fighter he was ,the hard fights with the undefeated beast mugabi, roldan,hearns, all while leonard was waiting for haglers age to slow him down to the point that he could outrun him and steal his belt.Leonard negotiated larger ring ,bigger gloves,and most importantly the 12 rounds.You could see leonard~s eyes at the bell rd 12 .Hagler would have dropped him.........

[Ezzard]

I watched the fight wanting Leonard to win. Ray was the story and it was an amazing comeback to take on Hagler. I saw the fight live on CCTV. Everyone wanted Ray to win. After 10 rounds he'd made it competitive and proved his point BUT he was gone. I mean fighting on fumes. He ran and then opened up once cornered. I don't think he could have gone 15. I expected him to fall apart at any moment and so did everyone else.

Hagler would have got him over 15. Let's be fair though. I believe both Hearns and Mugabi fights were scheduled for 12 rounds also.

[Imira]

I've always wondered what possessed Hagler to come out in the first few rounds trying to box orthodox. What was his gameplan there? At best he let too many early rounds slip away. At worst, the first 4 rounds went straight to Leonard.

If it had been 15 rounds, I think Hagler would have been able to rally late and close the gap to win a decision. Maybe Leonard felt the same way, hence, the request for the 12 round distance.

I think Leonard won the fight, by the way...barely.

[MAG1965]

had bad feeling about this for years,I think Yes,hagler was not on his game that night but leonard would only fight in short bursts & then run.leonard was slowing down and hagler would haved KO`d sugar if there had not been unfortunate deaths and 15 shortened to 12 .any thoughts gents...??Ray was tired in the 12th, but Ray was brilliant at pacing himself. If the fight was 15 originally, Ray would have fought differently to pace himself during the fight, but had you added 3 rounds at the end of the Hagler/Leonard fight the way they looked after that fight with Ray on the ropes, I think Hagler would have stopped Ray in round 14 or so.