Put these little guys in order of greatness.

[Addie]

Myung Woo-Yuh
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Jung-Koo Chang
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Sung-Kil Moon
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Hilario Zapata
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Gilberto Roman
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Michael Carbajal
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Humberto Gonzalez
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Ricardo Lopez
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Yoko Gushiken
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[lolb]

Just recently started to get into all these fighters apart from Gilberto Roman (I'll have to look him up). I havn't see enough of all of them to make a final judgement but I think at this stage I would take Chang over all of them. I'm waiting to watch Chang v Zapata 1 in which case my opinion may change slightly.

[Mantequilla]

Jung-Koo Chang

Sung-Kil Moon, Hilario Zapata, Gilberto Roman, Ricardo Lopez(these four in no particular order)

Yoko Gushiken

Myung Woo-Yuh, Humberto Gonzalez(no particular order)

Michael Carbajal

I find myself incapable of doing straight numbered lists, so i came up with a tiered structure instead.


Chang at the top, because i think he has the best mix of ability, dominance and opposition fought, coupled with a long number of title defences (even though he was a Benitez'esque undedicated phenom that burned out before he should have).The most accomplished fighter at or below Flyweight of the eighties imo, which was a strong generation and the last decade of a 30 year golden period for the lighterweights.

The next tier, other than Lopez, had excellent ability, a good amount of dominance and fought other very highly rated fighters in prime for prime bouts, added in with each displaying a shortcoming or two that was apparent because of the level of opp taken on in those fights.Lopez isn't as proven and falls behind on the defining fight stakes, but i thought his ability, consistent dominance and longevity was strong enough to warrant a place on this tier.

Gushiken just below, even though head to head i feel he belongs in that tier.He fought better comp than Lopez, but i thought the way his career finished with losses to a mediocrity and his decision to retire rather than move up(he cited weight making and disinterest as the main reasons for losing and retiring)hurts him.Also didn't really h have enough big prime for prime fights, the closest he came being against a past prime Alfonso Lopez and Martin Vargas.

Yuh often struggling with the better fighters he fought and imo not having as much ability as Gushiken put him a notch below for me.I wouldn't argue much if anyone wanted to put him higher however.He at least retired as champion and avenged his past prime loss.

Gonzalez on the same level, as he had similar ability imo and a few real upset losses gainst guys he really should have beaten hurt him.Dodgy chin.

Carbajal at the bottom, though i wouldn't argue against anyone putting him slightly higher.The least formidable head to head to me.

Gushiken, YUh, Carbajal and Gonzalez could have made up a second no particular order tier, but i feel more confident on how matches between them would go than i do with the higher tier.

[Flea Man]

Just recently started to get into all these fighters apart from Gilberto Roman (I'll have to look him up). I havn't see enough of all of them to make a final judgement but I think at this stage I would take Chang over all of them. I'm waiting to watch Chang v Zapata 1 in which case my opinion may change slightly.

Yep. You'll be even more certain that Chang is no.1, I'll lend it ya:good

[anarci]

Well i see that most of you still underrate Lopez. Addie I think you have him on the opposite side of the ratings,Lopez is the only one in my opinion that clearly seperates himself from the rest
Ok as for the rest wow,these guys are pretty much on par with eachother. i have Chang 2nd put only a hair above the rest I think everyone else is pretty much on par with eachother but here i go
1. Lopez


2. Chang
3.Chiquita-Carbajal
5.Yuh
6.Roman- Moon
8. Zapata
9.Gushiken
Ok this is probably the tightest list ive made in a while although Moon stopped Roman. Roman was at the end. I guess between 5 and 9 I wouldnt argue no matter what order you put this.

[lolb]

Yep. You'll be even more certain that Chang is no.1, I'll lend it ya:good


:good Yeah sound, I'll have a look at those Yuh fights as well mate. :D

[Addie]

Jung-Koo Chang

Sung-Kil Moon, Hilario Zapata, Gilberto Roman, Ricardo Lopez(these four in no particular order)

Yoko Gushiken

Myung Woo-Yuh, Humberto Gonzalez(no particular order)

Michael Carbajal

I find myself incapable of doing straight numbered lists, so i came up with a tiered structure instead.


Chang at the top, because i think he has the best mix of ability, dominance and opposition fought, coupled with a long number of title defences (even though he was a Benitez'esque undedicated phenom that burned out before he should have).The most accomplished fighter at or below Flyweight of the eighties imo, which was a strong generation and the last decade of a 30 year golden period for the lighterweights.

The next tier, other than Lopez, had excellent ability, a good amount of dominance and fought other very highly rated fighters in prime for prime bouts, added in with each displaying a shortcoming or two that was apparent because of the level of opp taken on in those fights.Lopez isn't as proven and falls behind on the defining fight stakes, but i thought his ability, consistent dominance and longevity was strong enough to warrant a place on this tier.

Gushiken just below, even though head to head i feel he belongs in that tier.He fought better comp than Lopez, but i thought the way his career finished with losses to a mediocrity and his decision to retire rather than move up(he cited weight making and disinterest as the main reasons for losing and retiring)hurts him.Also didn't really h have enough big prime for prime fights, the closest he came being against a past prime Alfonso Lopez and Martin Vargas.

Yuh often struggling with the better fighters he fought and imo not having as much ability as Gushiken put him a notch below for me.I wouldn't argue much if anyone wanted to put him higher however.He at least retired as champion and avenged his past prime loss.

Gonzalez on the same level, as he had similar ability imo and a few real upset losses gainst guys he really should have beaten hurt him.Dodgy chin.

Carbajal at the bottom, though i wouldn't argue against anyone putting him slightly higher.The least formidable head to head to me.

Gushiken, YUh, Carbajal and Gonzalez could have made up a second no particular order tier, but i feel more confident on how matches between them would go than i do with the higher tier.

Brilliant post :good

So Gilberto Roman did beat good fighters in their prime? He's currently the fighter I'm interested in, but there's only one of his prime performances on youtube at the minute. He seemed to have wonderful jab, and his movement must have been a nightmare to deal with. Can you tell me a little more about how his career?

[Addie]

Well i see that most of you still underrate Lopez. Addie I think you have him on the opposite side of the ratings,Lopez is the only one in my opinion that clearly seperates himself from the rest
Ok as for the rest wow,these guys are pretty much on par with eachother. i have Chang 2nd put only a hair above the rest I think everyone else is pretty much on par with eachother but here i go
1. Lopez


2. Chang
3.Chiquita-Carbajal
5.Yuh
6.Roman- Moon
8. Zapata
9.Gushiken
Ok this is probably the tightest list ive made in a while although Moon stopped Roman. Roman was at the end. I guess between 5 and 9 I wouldnt argue no matter what order you put this.

I rank fighters on resume first, ability second and that's why Lopez will never be held in as regard as you. Not to say I don't appreciate his skills, he was wonderful. I like seeing your posts because you do have a unique opinion, and it's always interesting. I've got a lot of Gonzalez, Myung-Yuh, and some Moon on the way. I can hardly wait to get my hands on it so I can answer my own thread question.

[Bill Butcher]

Myung Woo-Yuh
Jung-Koo Chang
Sung-Kil Moon
Hilario Zapata
Gilberto Roman
Michael Carbajal
Humberto Gonzalez
Ricardo Lopez
Yoko Gushiken

Sorry mate, Ive only seen enough of Lopez.

[Flea Man]

I need to have a think.

I'm thinking Chang at one, Moon at two but haven't thought about the rest yet. How I rank-

who did they beat, when did they beat them, how did they beat them.

[Addie]

I need to have a think.

I'm thinking Chang at one, Moon at two but haven't thought about the rest yet. How I rank-

who did they beat, when did they beat them, how did they beat them.

You don't take dominance and ability into consideration, Fleaman?

[bladerunner]

Im no expert on the little guys but ive recently been watching some Gushiken fights and boy could this guy fight,i specially liked his combinations and his poise under fire.

[Addie]

Im no expert on the little guys but ive recently been watching some Gushiken fights and boy could this guy fight,i specially liked his combinations and his poise under fire.

Link me mate. :good

[bladerunner]

Link me mate. :good
Check PM.

[Flea Man]

Well, if my subject is a 'dominant' and 'consistent' fighter I assume he will have several opponents that meet this bill. That's how I seperate the good, talent-proving, top 150-odd fighters away from the Sven Ottkes in my 'best fighters' discussions. You wouldn't take a fight against a no-hoper as a plus on a fighters resume, 'how did they do it' well that's just an example of how how I take 'dominanting performances' into account. This doesn't mean just 118-110 it means good wins in close fights against other good fighters in or around their primes, I mean we all know how to dissect a fight fuck knows why I'm waffling on about the mechanics of our debate :rasta

I'm surprised my comment elicted a response to be honest :lol:

[Addie]

Well, if my subject is a 'dominant' and 'consistent' fighter

I think Myung-Yuh was dominant and consistent, and although he beat several world champions, he didn't beat "great" fighters.

[Flea Man]

Sorry it wasn't consistency but 'ability' :lol:

'how did they do it?' again, showcasing their abilities is right in this, regardless of the fighter or the manner of the contest.

A fighter who executes what he attempts in impressive fashion, against an opponent that could show top levels of resistance (again in any form, again it's hard to debate a resume without knowledge of the opponents on it) is showing his 'ability', be it to take shots from an iron-chinned puncher before eventually sparking him or outboxing the tough champion, different wins score different types of kudos with me and it's this that brings me to my conclusions of who was the 'better fighter?'

EDIT!!!! I coulda saved all the Kerouac-inspired stream of consciousness bullshit above by saying simply: 'Put it this way, in my current P4P list I have Darchinyan above Donaire without Donaire appearing in the top ten'

and one other thing you say on another thread you say Marquez never had a 'defining wi. Can't remember the thread so I'll resonded here Addie, Pac@130 I scored it 115-112 Marquez and he showed hoe good he was in that fight. No one has been as competitive since.

[Flea Man]

I think Myung-Yuh was dominant and consistent, and although he beat several world champions, he didn't beat "great" fighters.

No doubt and that's why I consider him a very good fighter, my admiration for Yuh has been expressed many times.

But ahead of someone like Moon or Chang, no way. He has the talent, just like they do, but lacks the resume. A good consistent resume yes, and with a lovely style, but when I'm seerating the 'best of the best' it's talent and defining wins that get a fighter into the top echelon.

[anarci]

I think Myung-Yuh was dominant and consistent, and although he beat several world champions, he didn't beat "great" fighters.
But Lopez was more dominant,a little more consistant and in my opinion had greater ability, He also beat several world champions,he didnt beat great fighters.
So based on your criteria Lopez is slightly better than Yuh but yet you have him higher than Lopez.

[Addie]

But Lopez was more dominant,a little more consistant and in my opinion had greater ability, He also beat several world champions,he didnt beat great fighters.
So based on your criteria Lopez is slightly better than Yuh but yet you have him higher than Lopez.

I don't have a definitive list, Anarci.

This thread was simply a list, in absolutely no order, of the little men that I've become interested in over the past month or so. I'm shying off listing them until I see more Hilario Zapata, Humberto Gonzalez, Jung Koo Chang, and Gilberto Roman. That said, I think with the soul exception of maybe Myung-Yuh, Lopez has the least impressive resume among them all, and considering none of these fighters would make a top 70 let alone a top 50, I have to wonder how you could rate Lopez so highly. I would certainly rank Lopez higher than Yuh, but that doesn't mean I think Lopez is in the same league as Barrera or Morales.

[Flea Man]

I have Lopez above Yuh for the reason that while both were consistent and effective whilst not having many/any eye catching wins I preferred Lopez's punching form and all-round boxing approach, although Yuh was better suited to warring it up in close, which lends him props in return, as McGrain once said 'Boxings not Maths it's Music' and When it's hard to seperate two fighters you must go with 'what you like' in terms of te manner of their performances.

[Addie]

and one other thing you say on another thread you say Marquez never had a 'defining wi. Can't remember the thread so I'll resonded here Addie, Pac@130 I scored it 115-112 Marquez and he showed hoe good he was in that fight. No one has been as competitive since.

That's how you scored it, but by all accounts, the fight could have gone either way and therefore I'll go by the official verdict. Marquez has been unlucky in his career, but the fact still remains, he does not have a career defining win. Look at his peers. Morales was unlucky in the second Barrera fight, but it didn't stop him going on to get signature wins. Likewise, Barrera was arguably unlucky against Jones in the rematch, and certainly in the first Morales fight, but it didn't stop him going on to get signature wins.

[Addie]

I have Lopez above Yuh for the reason that while both were consistent and effective whilst not having many/any eye catching wins I preferred Lopez's punching form and all-round boxing approach, although Yuh was better suited to warring it up in close, which lends him props in return, as McGrain once said 'Boxings not Maths it's Music' and When it's hard to seperate two fighters you must go with 'what you like' in terms of te manner of their performances.

I like Myung-Yuh's punch form too though. I think he could deliver every shot with nice technique, and there was pretty much nothing he couldn't do with the left. He often tripled it up, and of course, his left to the body was subject to many knockdowns and stoppages in his dominant career at Light Flyweight. That said, I do rate Lopez higher because I think he closed the show on his opponents more consistently, and was more aesthetically pleasing on the eye.

Lopez is among this pack, and yet people still put him in the top 40-50 region of a top 100 list. It boggles the mind as far as I'm concerned.

[Mantequilla]

I don't have much time to elaborate right now, but Roman fought a lot of the top super flyweights of his era....Watanabe, Laciar 3 times, Sugar Baby Rojas, Konadu, Moon and most of his other more nondescript challengers were solid enough as far as second and third tier fighters go.He didn't fight many bums.

the first two Laciar fights and the Rojas ones are probably his main fightds with top prime opposition.Watanabe was a past prime when Roman beat him, mostly due to a late pro start and poor training habits/lack of motivation.

Roman himself was faded when Konadu and Moon defeated him.

[anarci]

I don't have a definitive list, Anarci.

This thread was simply a list, in absolutely no order, of the little men that I've become interested in over the past month or so. I'm shying off listing them until I see more Hilario Zapata, Humberto Gonzalez, Jung Koo Chang, and Gilberto Roman. That said, I think with the soul exception of maybe Myung-Yuh, Lopez has the least impressive resume among them all, and considering none of these fighters would make a top 70 let alone a top 50, I have to wonder how you could rate Lopez so highly. I would certainly rank Lopez higher than Yuh, but that doesn't mean I think Lopez is in the same league as Barrera or Morales.
Actually his resume isnt close to Barrera or Morales,but I still think the amount of title defenses and undeafeated record counts for something. In a hth matchup i think he beats Barrera or Morales and all those other guys you mentioned. Yes i know you are gonna bring up how his resume is similar to Calzaghes(and if I think hes awesome too) well to before u ask me that i just think hes a better fighter than Calzaghe. Kind of plain and simple as it sounds. One other thing I think Rosendo Alvarez is was a helluva a fighter himself and he deserves mention along with many of the other little guys. I dont think he was as good as Lopez(he was like Alis Norton or Barreras Junior Jones) diffrence is he Lopez never lost,but i also believe that some of the other great little men wouldnt have gave Lopez as much trouble as Alvarez did.

[Addie]

Actually his resume isnt close to Barrera or Morales,but I still think the amount of title defenses and undeafeated record counts for something. In a hth matchup i think he beats Barrera or Morales and all those other guys you mentioned. Yes i know you are gonna bring up how his resume is similar to Calzaghes(and if I think hes awesome too) well to before u ask me that i just think hes a better fighter than Calzaghe. Kind of plain and simple as it sounds. One other thing I think Rosendo Alvarez is was a helluva a fighter himself and he deserves mention along with many of the other little guys. I dont think he was as good as Lopez(he was like Alis Norton or Barreras Junior Jones) diffrence is he Lopez never lost,but i also believe that some of the other great little men wouldnt have gave Lopez as much trouble as Alvarez did.

:bart Overrated. If you rate Lopez above all the guys here...I'm sorry, it's true.

[Flea Man]

I don't have much time to elaborate right now, but Roman fought a lot of the top super flyweights of his era....Watanabe, Laciar 3 times, Sugar Baby Rojas, Konadu, Moon and most of his other more nondescript challengers were solid enough as far as second and third tier fighters go.He didn't fight many bums.

the first two Laciar fights and the Rojas ones are probably his main fightds with top prime opposition.Watanabe was a past prime when Roman beat him, mostly due to a late pro start and poor training habits/lack of motivation.

Roman himself was faded when Konadu and Moon defeated him.

good point, roman has been forgotten here. i'm gonna watch roman-laciar, have been meaning to

[Addie]

good point, roman has been forgotten here. i'm gonna watch roman-laciar, have been meaning to

I'd honestly never ever heard of the guy until I saw the top 10 Super Flyweight list on a website. It had Roman at 3, with Galaxy at 2 and credited Johnny Tapia as being the greatest ever at that weight.

[Flea Man]

I like Myung-Yuh's punch form too though. I think he could deliver every shot with nice technique, and there was pretty much nothing he couldn't do with the left. He often tripled it up, and of course, his left to the body was subject to many knockdowns and stoppages in his dominant career at Light Flyweight. That said, I do rate Lopez higher because I think he closed the show on his opponents more consistently, and was more aesthetically pleasing on the eye.

Lopez is among this pack, and yet people still put him in the top 40-50 region of a top 100 list. It boggles the mind as far as I'm concerned.

yeah, i like yuh's punching too, just prefer lopez's: if yuh can make lopez fight as well as box he can win a decision. a solid if unspectacular puncher, i bet money he'd have lopez at mid-range and then some, the beautiful jab not able to set up the hooks as well as usual due to yuh's good defence. i say lopez wins the first few rounds, yuh makes 5-8 really competitive by breaking up lopez's rhythm and batters him towards the end.ricardos great ring awareness and jab,plus his resilience , see him go the 12.against chang he wouldn't be as lucky.

[Addie]

yeah, i like yuh's punching too, just prefer lopez's: if yuh can make lopez fight as well as box he can win a decision. a solid if unspectacular puncher, i bet money he'd have lopez at mid-range and then some, the beautiful jab not able to set up the hooks as well as usual due to yuh's good defence. i say lopez wins the first few rounds, yuh makes 5-8 really competitive by breaking up lopez's rhythm and batters him towards the end.ricardos great ring awareness and jab,plus his resilience , see him go the 12.against chang he wouldn't be as lucky.

Don't let Anarci read this. He thinks Lopez was the Minimumweight Juilio Cesar Chavez. :D

Against Alvarez, Lopez was getting caught by shots that weren't all that hard to see coming. Myung-Yuh could fight from anywhere, but I think he'd want to mix it with mid-range and up close against the slightly taller, up right Lopez. He could catch him with the leaping left, just as Alvarez would find success, and Lopez's frame would be ripe for a few body shots...especially with his high guard. I just see Yuh's resistance being too great for Lopez, who isn't used to getting hit for 12 rounds. Don't think Lopez has the urgency to take Yuh's out of his comfort zone.

[anarci]

good point, roman has been forgotten here. i'm gonna watch roman-laciar, have been meaning to
Laciar was also very good and a long reigning champ.

[anarci]

hey addie you act like these guys could just come inside at will without getting any heat in return. Sounds like you talk about Lopez as if he was some average puncher. Lopez was a very sharp puncher, he knocked out a lot of guys.

[Addie]

hey addie you act like these guys could just come inside at will without getting any heat in return. Sounds like you talk about Lopez as if he was some average puncher. Lopez was a very sharp puncher, he knocked out a lot of guys.

He isn't moving up to Light Flyweight and knocking out a guy like Yuh, who had insane stamina and toughness on his side. I concede that Yuh would have to take shots too, but he didn't give anyone any reason to suggest he'd have a lot of trouble taking the shots from a hard hitting Minimumweight.

[Sweet Pea]

Well i see that most of you still underrate Lopez. Addie I think you have him on the opposite side of the ratings,Lopez is the only one in my opinion that clearly seperates himself from the rest
Ok as for the rest wow,these guys are pretty much on par with eachother. i have Chang 2nd put only a hair above the rest I think everyone else is pretty much on par with eachother but here i go
1. Lopez


2. Chang
3.Chiquita-Carbajal
5.Yuh
6.Roman- Moon
8. Zapata
9.Gushiken
Ok this is probably the tightest list ive made in a while although Moon stopped Roman. Roman was at the end. I guess between 5 and 9 I wouldnt argue no matter what order you put this.Why do you rank Yuh above those guys? Outside of the fact that he's had a lot of attention on these forums recently, of course.

[Addie]

Why do you rank Yuh above those guys? Outside of the fact that he's had a lot of attention on these forums recently, of course.

My list would be.

1. Chang
2. Zapata
3. Roman
4. Gushiken
5. Lopez
6. Myung-Yuh
7. Moon
8. Gonzalez
9. Carbajal

I think some of Moon's best wins were circumstantial, and I'm more impressed with Yuh on film and that coupled with his dominance and intangibles is why I rank him above Moon. I also rank him above Gonzalez and Carbajal because I think he has less weaknesses and would have beaten both of them. I'd have no arguments with anyone putting Yuh at the bottom.

[Sweet Pea]

Here would be my list.

Jung-Koo Chang
Ricardo Lopez
Hilario Zapata
Yoko Gushiken
Sung-Kil Moon
Gilberto Roman
Myung-Woo Yuh
Humberto Gonzalez
Michael Carbajal

[cotto20]

Here would be my list.

Jung-Koo Chang
Ricardo Lopez
Hilario Zapata
Yoko Gushiken
Sung-Kil Moon
Gilberto Roman
Myung-Woo Yuh
Humberto Gonzalez
Michael Carbajal

Chang over Lopez? Reasons? I just don't see it......

[Sweet Pea]

I think some of Moon's best wins were circumstantial, and I'm more impressed with Yuh on film and that coupled with his dominance and intangibles is why I rank him above Moon.The wins over Roman and Zapata were circumstantial because they were done by that point, but the two knockout wins over Konadu certainly weren't. The only fighter he lost to anywhere near his prime was Khaokor, who he'd previously beaten by technical decision due to a headbutt from Khaokor that stopped the fight (Moon was up on the cards at the time). The two wins over Konadu and his KO streak against the top contenders of the era hold him in high esteem for me, as ugly as he may have been to watch.

[Sweet Pea]

Chang over Lopez? Reasons? I just don't see it......I just thought he was a more impressive fighter, and he proved it against better competition, even when past his prime. I'd favor him in a bout between the two, in fact I'd bet money on it.

[cotto20]

I just thought he was a more impressive fighter, and he proved it against better competition, even when past his prime. I'd favor him heavily over Lopez in a bout between the two, in fact I'd bet money on it.

Interesting.....I feel Lopez was the more impressive and skilled fighter aswell as being the greater and more consistet fighter. I would of bet heavy money on Lopez beating Chang......

[Addie]

The wins over Roman and Zapata were circumstantial because they were done by that point, but the two knockout wins over Konadu certainly weren't. The only fighter he lost to anywhere near his prime was Khaokor, who he'd previously beaten by technical decision due to a headbutt from Khaokor that stopped the fight (Moon was up on the cards at the time). The two wins over Konadu and his KO streak against the top contenders of the era hold him in high esteem for me, as ugly as he may have been to watch.

It all comes back to the point you made yesterday Pea about distinguishing effective styles and aesthetically pleasing styles. It has to be said that Galaxy beat the shit into him in the rematch, and Khaokor had never looked worse than when they first met. Full credit for the wins over Konadu. Despite your own rankings, do you feel Yuh has a case to be ranked above Moon?

[Sweet Pea]

Interesting.....I feel Lopez was the more impressive and skilled fighter aswell as being the greater and more consistet fighter. I would of bet heavy money on Lopez beating Chang......He was obviously going to be more consistent against the hapless opposition he routinely faced. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think Chang would've swarmed all over the very textbook correct Lopez in a similar manner to how Harada did Jofre.

[Addie]

Interesting.....I feel Lopez was the more impressive and skilled fighter aswell as being the greater and more consistet fighter. I would of bet heavy money on Lopez beating Chang......

Do you not feel Chang's style was the perfect foil for a stand up boxer like Lopez?

[Sweet Pea]

It all comes back to the point you made yesterday Pea about distinguishing effective styles and aesthetically pleasing styles. It has to be said that Galaxy beat the shit into him in the rematch, and Khaokor had never looked worse than when they first met. Full credit for the wins over Konadu. Despite your own rankings, do you feel Yuh has a case to be ranked above Moon?Not a strong one, but you could make the case depending on your criteria, such as if you simply favor consistency and title defenses over dominance and quality of opposition.

[Addie]

Not a strong one, but you could make the case depending on your criteria, such as if you simply favor consistency and title defenses over dominance and quality of opposition.

I think Yuh was a better fighter. He was more complete. If you gave Yuh Moon's power, he would have been pretty darn close to unbeatable in his division in my judgment. He needed to be "on" for 12 rounds nearly every time out because he didn't have the kind of power to knock someone out with a single shot, whereas Moon could have been getting his ears boxed off, and then lands something from left field and it's goodnight.

Myung-Woo Yuh vs Sung-Kil Moon at 115lbs? Who takes it and why?

[cotto20]

He was obviously going to be more consistent against the hapless opposition he routinely faced. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think Chang would've swarmed all over the very textbook correct Lopez in a similar manner to how Harada did Jofre.

Yeah......Opinions vary. But I see Lopez just being to techincaly sound for Chang and has the power and accuracy to make Chang respect him and possibly even deck him, throughout the fight.

But agree to disagree....:good

[anarci]

Why do you rank Yuh above those guys? Outside of the fact that he's had a lot of attention on these forums recently, of course.
Check this out bro! I didnt have to watch him on you tube to know about Yuh ok. I knew of Yuh long before ESB or even the internet existed. He dominated his division for a long time I remember in the 80s when he won the title on a controversial decision from Joey Olivo a fighter from the same gym that i trained at as a teen. So dont assume im some newbie boxing fan that got my ideas from some KID historian like you

[anarci]

He isn't moving up to Light Flyweight and knocking out a guy like Yuh, who had insane stamina and toughness on his side. I concede that Yuh would have to take shots too, but he didn't give anyone any reason to suggest he'd have a lot of trouble taking the shots from a hard hitting Minimumweight. Addie the weight difference is 3 lbs.
Also Lopez brought his power up he knocked out 2 jr fly champs Potlelo,and Vorapin. Im not saying he would have knocked Yuh out but he would have got his respect and hurt Yuh if he continued toswarm him relentlessly for 12 or 15 rounds.

[Addie]

Addie the weight difference is 3 lbs.
Also Lopez brought his power up he knocked out 2 jr fly champs Potlelo,and Vorapin. Im not saying he would have knocked Yuh out but he would have got his respect and hurt Yuh if he continued toswarm him relentlessly for 12 or 15 rounds.

Myung-Woo Yuh wasn't a relentless swarmer, and he wasn't accustomed to getting hit cleanly on a consistent basis throughout a fight either. He had great movement, and his fleet of foot allowed him to literally leap in and out of distance giving him room to counter any lazy reaching shots from the opposition. Lopez will be missing even more than he was against Alvarez. We can disagree on who would win a fight, but I think it's pretty certain that Yuh isn't getting stopped here. Not by a single shot or accumulation.

Just so you know it's nothing personal against your boy, Lopez, I don't think anyone that ever campaigned at 108lbs would have stopped Myung-Woo Yuh. He was just too tough, and at times, too elusive to sustain the amount of punishment required.

[anarci]

Myung-Woo Yuh wasn't a relentless swarmer, and he wasn't accustomed to getting hit cleanly on a consistent basis throughout a fight either. He had great movement, and his fleet of foot allowed him to literally leap in and out of distance giving him room to counter any lazy reaching shots from the opposition. Lopez will be missing even more than he was against Alvarez. We can disagree on who would win a fight, but I think it's pretty certain that Yuh isn't getting stopped here. Not by a single shot or accumulation.

Just so you know it's nothing personal against your boy, Lopez, I don't think anyone that ever campaigned at 108lbs would have stopped Myung-Woo Yuh. He was just too tough, and at times, too elusive to sustain the amount of punishment required. Well when he fought Olivo he was coming forward,but i was exaggerating a little bit by calling him a swarmer,guess i thought i was talking about Chang for a second.
I did catch his fight that was posted so i could refresh my memory on him and he did move more than i remember but he still threw alot of punches my opinion still hasnt changed. Lopez was just on another leverl. I know that yuh was never stopped what i was trying to say was that Lopez would get tohim and his power would be effective.

[Addie]

Well when he fought Olivo he was coming forward,but i was exaggerating a little bit by calling him a swarmer,guess i thought i was talking about Chang for a second.
I did catch his fight that was posted so i could refresh my memory on him and he did move more than i remember but he still threw alot of punches my opinion still hasnt changed. Lopez was just on another leverl. I know that yuh was never stopped what i was trying to say was that Lopez would get tohim and his power would be effective.

Fair enough. We established long ago that you overrate Lopez.

[Mantequilla]

It all comes back to the point you made yesterday Pea about distinguishing effective styles and aesthetically pleasing styles. It has to be said that Galaxy beat the shit into him in the rematch, and Khaokor had never looked worse than when they first met. Full credit for the wins over Konadu. Despite your own rankings, do you feel Yuh has a case to be ranked above Moon?

To be fair to Moon, his long time trainer and friend died right before the Galaxy rematch and he was unable to call the fight off.He'd apparently been in hospital the whole night before the fight and had no sleep/little food etc before going into the fight.Whatever the extent of it was, he certainly didn't look himself in the fight.I don't think we quite got to see what a full 12 round fight both at their best would look like.

[Sweet Pea]

I think Yuh was a better fighter. He was more complete. If you gave Yuh Moon's power, he would have been pretty darn close to unbeatable in his division in my judgment. He needed to be "on" for 12 rounds nearly every time out because he didn't have the kind of power to knock someone out with a single shot, whereas Moon could have been getting his ears boxed off, and then lands something from left field and it's goodnight.

Myung-Woo Yuh vs Sung-Kil Moon at 115lbs? Who takes it and why?Moon would've blasted him out early. Total mismatch due to Moon's far superior physicality.

[Sweet Pea]

Check this out bro! I didnt have to watch him on you tube to know about Yuh ok. I knew of Yuh long before ESB or even the internet existed. He dominated his division for a long time I remember in the 80s when he won the title on a controversial decision from Joey Olivo a fighter from the same gym that i trained at as a teen. So dont assume im some newbie boxing fan that got my ideas from some KID historian like youDon't lie. I taught you everything you know.

[Flea Man]

Moon would walk through Yuh IMO.

Love the fact 'Iran Barkley' has already reverted bck to Cotto20 and sent me an abusive email :lol:

[Flea Man]

I'm back on the classic but there's still loads of cunts on here :lol:

[Addie]

I'm back on the classic but there's still loads of cunts on here :lol:

Thought we were cool mate. :bart Fuck yourself then.

Am I alone when I say Yuh was more talented and a better fighter than Moon, who just had the physical attributes and power that Yuh lacked.

[WhataRock]

Depends on your criteria for "talent".

I think Yuh was better schooled and technically sound fighter...but as for raw physical talent you would have to go with Moon.

Who had a great chin, ungodly power and underrated ring awareness all of which for most part came naturally to him.

Yuh might be more aesthetically pleasing from technical standpoint but you cant deny how effective Moon's approach was.

Moon would ice him if they fought...I have little doubt about that. A match if both were the same size would be very interesting however.

[Addie]

Depends on your criteria for "talent".

I think Yuh was better schooled and technically sound fighter...but as for raw physical talent you would have to go with Moon.

Who had a great chin, ungodly power and underrated ring awareness all of which for most part came naturally to him.

Yuh might be more aesthetically pleasing from technical standpoint but you cant deny how effective Moon's approach was.

Moon would ice him if they fought...I have little doubt about that. A match if both were the same size would be very interesting however.

What I meant was, Yuh wasn't just more pleasing aesthetically, but he was better technically and a more effective "boxer". I tend to agree that Moon would win based on his size and power, but I still think Yuh was more talented.

[WhataRock]

But there are different ways to skin a cat.

Moon beat better fighters with his approach and so I dont you could definitively say that Yuh was more effective when he actually had a pretty hard time against the best fighters he fought.

I think had Moon had Yuh's opposition he would have done just aswell..likely better given his power.

Whereas Im not so sure you would see Yuh come out unscathed against Konadu, Galaxy, Zapata, Roman et al.

Hence I dont think he is anymore talented or effective just because he had a longer reign against lesser opposition...But each to their own Adds.

[Addie]

But there are different ways to skin a cat.

Moon beat better fighters with his approach and so I dont you could definitively say that Yuh was more effective when he actually had a pretty hard time against the best fighters he fought.

I think had Moon had Yuh's opposition he would have done just aswell..likely better given his power.

Whereas Im not so sure you would see Yuh come out unscathed against Konadu, Galaxy, Zapata, Roman et al.

Hence I dont think he is anymore talented or effective just because he had a longer reign against lesser opposition...But each to their own Adds.

I don't think Moon had much outside of his power. Would I be misinformed?

[WhataRock]

I don't think Moon had much outside of his power. Would I be misinformed?

He had a great chin, great stamina, impressive physical strength and I feel underrated ringcraft..Certainly more then just power but that was his main asset without a doubt.

He often looked crude in his delivery but there was some method to his madness. He took something out of a fighter every time he threw, whether it landed clean, or the fighter overworked themselves trying to avoid it or even it it landed on an arm or shoulder it still took had an effect.

Both guys really just used different tools to get the same outcome..Both were about imposing themselves and grinding the other guy down.
Yuh used his workrate and solid skillset...Moon was about using his power more.

It comes down to what you like better I guess..I enjoy watching Yuh more at the moment and in general Im not a big fan of sluggers like Moon. But I think Moon proved he was certainly very effective given the calibre of fighters he beat and how he beat them.

[sweet_scientist]

In terms of ability, taking each man at their best, I would rate them like this:


1. Jung-Koo Chang
2. Ricardo Lopez, Yoko Gushiken
3. Hilario Zapata
4. Gilberto Roman, Sung-Kil Moon
5. Myung Woo Yuh
6. Humberto Gonzalez
7. Michael Carbajal

But if we are measuring greatness, that list would look like this:

1. Jung Koo Chang
2. Ricardo Lopez, Gilberto Roman, Sung Kil Moon
3. Myung Woo Yuh, Hilario Zapata
4. Yoko Gushiken, Humberto Gonzalez
5. Michael Carbajal

I would just like to say that I quite rate Myung Woo Yuh. He wasn't the prettiest of fighters (I'm not just talking about the huge size of his head which would make a midget proud) and he could have some trouble against guys that were cute and elusive, but he was an excellent mid range and inside fighter imo (more so through toughness and energy than technique) and would give hell to anyone that attempted to walk through him. Moreover, he always turned up to fight in 100% tip top condition, which is more than can be said about many of the guys being discussed in this thread, and it's probably one of the reasons he ended his career well and not with an embarrassing fadeout. He did have quite a few close fights, but I always thought he got the decision (had him taking the Olivo, Gamez, DeJesus fights - haven't seen the Ioka fights though).

[Addie]

I would just like to say that I quite rate Myung Woo Yuh. He wasn't the prettiest of fighters (and I'm not just talking about the huge size of his head which would make a midget proud) and he could have some trouble against guys that were cute and elusive, but he was an excellent mid range and inside fighter imo (more so through toughness and energy than technique) and would give hell to anyone that attempted to walk through him. Moreover, he always turned up to fight in 100% tip top condition, which is more than can be said about many of the guys being discussed in this thread, and it's probably one of the reasons he ended his career well and not with an embarrassing fadeout. He did have quite a few close fights, but I always thought he got the decision (had him taking the Olivo, Gamez, DeJesus fights - haven't seen the Ioka fights though).

Great post, Scientist.

I did think he was quite good to watch. He often looked quite cute and technical in there, working behind an educated jab, and bringing combinations to body and head behind it. He seemed to have good balance, and very rarely got sloppy. Underrated defense, good head movement, used his feet to dart in and out of range, and bringing counters behind it. I love to watch Yuh, his style is about as pretty as it gets for me. A bit unorthodox at times, but I believe everything he did in the ring was with smarts, and nearly everything he threw was placed purposefully as opposed to just winging. The fact he had a great chin, and seemingly never-ending stamina just made him even more a formidable opponent as opposed to defining him.

[sweet_scientist]

Great post, Scientist.

I did think he was quite good to watch. He often looked quite cute and technical in there, working behind an educated jab, and bringing combinations to body and head behind it. He seemed to have good balance, and very rarely got sloppy. Underrated defense, good head movement, used his feet to dart in and out of range, and bringing counters behind it. I love to watch Yuh, his style is about as pretty as it gets for me. A bit unorthodox at times, but I believe everything he did in the ring was with smarts, and nearly everything he threw was placed purposefully as opposed to just winging. The fact he had a great chin, and seemingly never-ending stamina just made him even more a formidable opponent as opposed to defining him.

I pretty much agree Addie. He did have a tendency to look somewhat mechanical or uncoordinated at times, and didn't have that great body rhythm that natural fighters like Chang, Watanabe and co. had, but he was an intelligent fighter, and he did have a technique that worked well for him.

Probably the biggest thing holding him back from being even more highly regarded for me is that he never faced a truly exceptional fighter to clearly determine where he actually belongs.

[Addie]

I pretty much agree Addie. He did have a tendency to look somewhat mechanical or uncoordinated at times, and didn't have that great body rhythm than natural fighters like Chang, Watanabe and co. had, but he was an intelligent fighter, and he did have a technique that worked well for him.

Probably the biggest thing holding him back from being even more highly regarded for me is that he never faced a truly exceptional fighter to graft where he actually belongs.

:good Nobody at 108lbs has an easy time with Myung-Woo Yuh. How did you rate him defensively? By my own admission, I've only seen 6 of his fights, but not really in any of them was he accustomed to taking solid shots. He was always moving his head, and like I said, often darting just out of range of shots. He was no Pernell Whitaker, but he wasn't defensively inept either.

[Addie]

He had a great chin, great stamina, impressive physical strength and I feel underrated ringcraft..Certainly more then just power but that was his main asset without a doubt.

He often looked crude in his delivery but there was some method to his madness. He took something out of a fighter every time he threw, whether it landed clean, or the fighter overworked themselves trying to avoid it or even it it landed on an arm or shoulder it still took had an effect.

Both guys really just used different tools to get the same outcome..Both were about imposing themselves and grinding the other guy down.
Yuh used his workrate and solid skillset...Moon was about using his power more.

It comes down to what you like better I guess..I enjoy watching Yuh more at the moment and in general Im not a big fan of sluggers like Moon. But I think Moon proved he was certainly very effective given the calibre of fighters he beat and how he beat them.

:good Thanks Rock. I should watch more Moon to get a good grasp of his greatness, however, I don't think I'll be able to appreciate his fighting style as much as I probably should. I like the more technical, precise punchers...and I think Myung-Woo Yuh was both.

[sweet_scientist]

:good Nobody at 108lbs has an easy time with Myung-Woo Yuh. How did you rate him defensively? By my own admission, I've only seen 6 of his fights, but not really in any of them was he accustomed to taking solid shots. He was always moving his head, and like I said, often darting just out of range of shots. He was no Pernell Whitaker, but he wasn't defensively inept either.

An underrated side of his game. Because he often invited a brawl and had an excellent chin people tend to overlook the fact that he could slip punches quite well. As far as offensive minded fighters go, his defense was pretty good actually. I wouldn't say it's up there with the best defense amongst offensive fighters (e.g. Duran, Chang, Armstrong etc.), but nevertheless it was pretty decent.

[Addie]

An underrated side of his game. Because he often invited a brawl and had an excellent chin people tend to overlook the fact that he could slip punches quite well. As far as offensive minded fighters go, his defense was pretty good actually. I wouldn't say it's up there with the best defense amongst offensive fighters (e.g. Duran, Chang, Armstrong etc.), but nevertheless it was pretty decent.

I'll be honest, the fights I've seen of Yuh are quite contrary to what other people say about him. I have four of his fights on DVD (with 17 in the post), and although he certainly has a great punch output, and stepped the pace up as the rounds went by...during long periods he'd be on the back-foot counterpunching. it seemed as though he would often start off doing that, and then when he sensed he had the momentum he'd push the pace much harder.

[sweet_scientist]

I'll be honest, the fights I've seen of Yuh are quite contrary to what other people say about him. I have four of his fights on DVD (with 17 in the post), and although he certainly has a great punch output, and stepped the pace up as the rounds went by...during long periods he'd be on the back-foot counterpunching. it seemed as though he would often start off doing that, and then when he sensed he had the momentum he'd push the pace much harder.

He could box a little too, but I'd say he liked to engage moreso. From what I've seen anyway, which isn't the whole career of the man.

Which fights have you seen may I ask Addie?

[Addie]

He could box a little too, but I'd say he liked to engage moreso. From what I've seen anyway, which isn't the whole career of the man.

Which fights have you seen may I ask Addie?

Tokushima, Danphuthai, Komiyama, Salazar, Blanco, Baharudin.

[Flea Man]

Thought we were cool mate. :bart Fuck yourself then.

Am I alone when I say Yuh was more talented and a better fighter than Moon, who just had the physical attributes and power that Yuh lacked.

CLEARLY wasn't referring to you Addie:good

[Mantequilla]

I think Yuh was one of those fighters who's technique defensively exceeded his physical ability and reflexes.Above average and couls slip/block shos very prettily, but would struggle to get out of the way as consistently against the top fighters with A class speed and timing.

To a lesser extent Kalule and Gushiken would be in that category too just for quick comparison.Or MCGuigan for an outright pressure fighter.

[Flea Man]

I really like Yuhs attempts to block shots with quick head movement to the appropriate place on his head. He had good rhythm there, hittable, but clearly tough to hit enough to really hurt him, especially given his toughness. Sure Chang could hit him a lot, but Gushiken was strong enough in close to dissuade Chang from constantly laying it on thick (IMO)

[Mantequilla]

I think Gushiken could perhapos do really well against Chang.Not sure about that one.It's a tough fight to envision off some reason.

I don't think Chang would be able to hurt Yuh much at all,not many would. it's getting consistently beat to the punch in exchanges, potshots etc that would be the issue.

[Sweet Pea]

What I meant was, Yuh wasn't just more pleasing aesthetically, but he was better technically and a more effective "boxer". I tend to agree that Moon would win based on his size and power, but I still think Yuh was more talented.I wouldn't say so. I figure outside of Carbajal and possibly Gonzalez that Yuh loses to the top 108 pounders, whereas Moon had the ability to beat any of the top 115 pounders.

[Addie]

I wouldn't say so. I figure outside of Carbajal and possibly Gonzalez that Yuh loses to the top 108 pounders, whereas Moon had the ability to beat any of the top 115 pounders.

...Based on his size and power, absolutely. Take away his god-given power and I don't think he would have been half the fighter he was. Yuh, in contrast, was so good because of all the things he learned in the gym. Power isn't something you truly develop through hard work and determination, you either hit hard or you don't. I guess I admire Yuh more because I figure he made more sacrifices during his development stages as a fighter. If I'm selling Moon short here, feel free to put me in my place. Myung had to be more consistent throughout a fight because he wasn't going to score a sudden knockout.

I hate to make the comparison, but I liken these two fighters...very broadly...to a George Foreman and Chris Byrd. One fighter is great because of god-given things such as power, punch resistance, and physical stature. The other was effective because of things he learned in the gym, and had to be focused and consistent at all times because he knew most if not all of his fights would be determined on amount of punches landed rather than any one punch. It doesn't make Yuh a better and more effective fighter, but I think it rightly qualifies him as better technically at least.

[Sweet Pea]

...Based on his size and power, absolutely. Take away his god-given power and I don't think he would have been half the fighter he was. Yuh, in contrast, was so good because of all the things he learned in the gym. Power isn't something you truly develop through hard work and determination, you either hit hard or you don't. I guess I admire Yuh more because I figure he made more sacrifices during his development stages as a fighter. If I'm selling Moon short here, feel free to put me in my place. Myung had to be more consistent throughout a fight because he wasn't going to score a sudden knockout.

I hate to make the comparison, but I liken these two fighters...very broadly...to a George Foreman and Chris Byrd. One fighter is great because of god-given things such as power, punch resistance, and physical stature. The other was effective because of things he learned in the gym, and had to be focused and consistent at all times because he knew most if not all of his fights would be determined on amount of punches landed rather than any one punch.I'm pretty comfortable in ranking Foreman ahead of Byrd.;)

I think Moon was just a physical monster. Not only crushing power, but undeniable will, stamina, and durability. A very hard mixture to beat when you take into account his extremely unorthodox punching style and relentless offense. Whether or not you respect those attributes in comparison to learned technical acumen is irrelevant to whether or not they were as effective in the ring, which they clearly were at least in his case and the case of quite a few others.

[Mantequilla]

I doubt anyone would argue against Yuh being better technically than Moon.

Moon was the worst of all the high profile Korean fighters,-possibly even the worst of all the top asian fighters -from a technical perspective.He's a bit like the Marciano of asian boxing.

[Addie]

I'm pretty comfortable in ranking Foreman ahead of Byrd.;)

I think Moon was just a physical monster. Not only crushing power, but undeniable will, stamina, and durability. A very hard mixture to beat when you take into account his extremely unorthodox punching style and relentless offense. Whether or not you respect those attributes in comparison to learned technical acumen is irrelevant to whether or not they were as effective in the ring, which they clearly were at least in his case and the case of quite a few others.

Absolutely. :good

I usually base my rankings on resume and longevity mainly, but I do have to make an exception here. It don't feel right ranking Moon over Yuh. I view one fighter as being a talentless brawler who just happens to have iron fists, and the other a very smart, intelligent technical boxer, who could fight effectively inside and outside.

This conversation may go on, but before it does, recommend a fight of Moon's. Preferably his greatest ever showing that's available on the Internet? I've seen his first fight with Galaxy.

[Addie]

I doubt anyone would argue against Yuh being better technically than Moon.

Moon was the worst of all the high profile Korean fighters,-possibly even the worst of all the top asian fighters -from a technical perspective.He's a bit like the Marciano of asian boxing.

And Rocky Marciano will never ever be on my radar. :bart No disrespect to all you fans of The Rock, I'm just partial to the more talented fighters...who I think represent the sport the way it was supposed to be represented.

[Mantequilla]

I can sympathise there.Not a huge fan of unskilled toilers myself, even the huge punching or otherwise truly elite ones.

But you have to seperate that from their inherent effectriveness as fighters.

[Addie]

I can sympathise there.Not a huge fan of unskilled toilers myself, even the huge punching or otherwise truly elite ones.

But you have to seperate that from their inherent effectriveness as fighters.

:? Do I really have too?

[GPater11093]

good point, roman has been forgotten here. i'm gonna watch roman-laciar, have been meaning to

tell me what you think about it

Here would be my list.

Jung-Koo Chang
Ricardo Lopez
Hilario Zapata
Yoko Gushiken
Sung-Kil Moon
Gilberto Roman
Myung-Woo Yuh
Humberto Gonzalez
Michael Carbajal

Similar to mine

Chang
Lopez
Gushiken
Zapata
Roman
Moon
Yuh
Gonzalez
Carbajal

Do you not feel Chang's style was the perfect foil for a stand up boxer like Lopez?

Actually i think Lopez had a good punching style to trouble Chang as long, hard, straight, textbook shots did trouble Chang at times. But i also think Chang has a good style to beat Lopez's overrall style.

Also, Chang dosent worry about styles he is a style breaker.

I think Gushiken could perhapos do really well against Chang.Not sure about that one.It's a tough fight to envision off some reason.


Interesting one but i have always seen Chang just being too relelntless and can take the iniative from Gushiken and not give him a chance to get set and allow Chang to swarm all over him as i think Gushiken needs to be in controll of a fight.

...Based on his size and power, absolutely. Take away his god-given power and I don't think he would have been half the fighter he was. Yuh, in contrast, was so good because of all the things he learned in the gym. Power isn't something you truly develop through hard work and determination, you either hit hard or you don't. I guess I admire Yuh more because I figure he made more sacrifices during his development stages as a fighter. If I'm selling Moon short here, feel free to put me in my place. Myung had to be more consistent throughout a fight because he wasn't going to score a sudden knockout.

I hate to make the comparison, but I liken these two fighters...very broadly...to a George Foreman and Chris Byrd. One fighter is great because of god-given things such as power, punch resistance, and physical stature. The other was effective because of things he learned in the gym, and had to be focused and consistent at all times because he knew most if not all of his fights would be determined on amount of punches landed rather than any one punch. It doesn't make Yuh a better and more effective fighter, but I think it rightly qualifies him as better technically at least.

Well if you take it away its not really Moon then is it. That is part of him like it or lump it it makes him good fighter but he knows how to use it so surely thats a skill.

[Addie]

Well if you take it away its not really Moon then is it. That is part of him like it or lump it it makes him good fighter but he knows how to use it so surely thats a skill.

I'm not aware of whether or not you read all the posts in the discussion, but the point I was making is that Moon is effective based mainly on god-given traits. Your an amateur Greg, and maybe one day you'll get in the ring with someone who couldn't hold your jockstrap in all of the departments you worked on in the gym. Then you get in the ring with him and he knocks you out with a wild clubbing shot, despite you being more talented at Boxing. I liken that scenario to this one. I concede that Moon's power made him very effective, and that he'd probably beat Yuh based on his size and power...but I appreciate Yuh's skills more.

[Sweet Pea]

Moon's destruction of a faded Roman is up on Youtube, though it doesn't really give too much sense of what a prime for prime bout between the two would've been like. I'd probably have favored Moon there as well, though. Roman was always just a bit too small I think to handle Moon's power and aggression. I could be wrong, though.

Both of his fights with Konadu used to be up. Now only the first bout is, albeit in pretty poor quality. Great fight though. The rematch was just a blow-out for Moon.

His blitzing of Ernesto Ford is another good one to watch that's available (again though, the quality is pretty damn poor). Noone is going to claim Moon was any kind of technical savant, or a particularly pleasing fighter to the eye. But the guy was undeniably very effective with the tools he brought to the table. An iron fist, a granite chin, relentless aggression, unbreakable will, and a high workrate of unorthodox punching is always going ot be tough to beat regardless of the opponent's technical prowess.

[GPater11093]

I'm not aware of whether or not you read all the posts in the discussion, but the point I was making is that Moon is effective based mainly on god-given traits. Your an amateur Greg, and maybe one day you'll get in the ring with someone who couldn't hold your jockstrap in all of the departments you worked on in the gym. Then you get in the ring with him and he knocks you out with a wild clubbing shot, despite you being more talented at Boxing. I liken that scenario to this one. I concede that Moon's power made him very effective, and that he'd probably beat Yuh based on his size and power...but I appreciate Yuh's skills more.

i understand its annoying when theres fighters like that but they need to learn how to use that talent they have been given to make it effective. Your not telling me really Moon had no skill of course he did his skill was being able to maximise his god given talent.

[Addie]

i understand its annoying when theres fighters like that but they need to learn how to use that talent they have been given to make it effective. Your not telling me really Moon had no skill of course he did his skill was being able to maximise his god given talent.

If Moon really wanted to maximize his god given talent, I'd have expected him to throw with sharper technique and have a wider array of shots at his disposable. I think he had it easy in comparison to Yuh.

[Flea Man]

If Moon really wanted to maximize his god given talent, I'd have expected him to throw with sharper technique and have a wider array of shots at his disposable. I think he had it easy in comparison to Yuh.


Don't understand this to be honest.

Moon faced a higher calibre of opponent.

Also, just because he didn't focus so much on technique, doesn't mean it's 'easy' to swing like he did for as long as he could, take the punches he could and most importantly BEAT some very good fighters using the same style. Also, the fact he didn't have a massive amount of technical skill made it harder for him surely, because he could only do one thing but had to do it well, and ship punishment doing it.

In short, as he was very one dimensional you think people could have figured out a gameplan to beat him? Not really, he would just walk through everything.

Kaokor beat him really well, but as has already been noted Moons trainer died the night before the fight. He was not as there as me might've been, although Kaokor to his credit put on a masterful display against a stubborn opponent.

I think Moon is quality, regardless of him not having many nuances and streamlined technical aspects, he cut off the ring well, was resiliant, hard to beat and ferocious.

I hold all effective fighters in high regard regardless of style.

[GPater11093]

If Moon really wanted to maximize his god given talent, I'd have expected him to throw with sharper technique and have a wider array of shots at his disposable. I think he had it easy in comparison to Yuh.

But he did his job effectivly though didnt he?

his skills is landing on his opponent, getting your feet planted correctly, getting power in his shots.

He was a good fighter due to his talent but for talent to be effective it has to be used well and he used it well he was aggresive and kept a high pace.

[Addie]

Don't understand this to be honest.

Moon faced a higher calibre of opponent.

Also, just because he didn't focus so much on technique, doesn't mean it's 'easy' to swing like he did for as long as he could, take the punches he could and most importantly BEAT some very good fighters using the same style. Also, the fact he didn't have a massive amount of technical skill made it harder for him surely, because he could only do one thing but had to do it well, and ship punishment doing it.

In short, as he was very one dimensional you think people could have figured out a gameplan to beat him? Not really, he would just walk through everything.

Kaokor beat him really well, but as has already been noted Moons trainer died the night before the fight. He was not as there as me might've been, although Kaokor to his credit put on a masterful display against a stubborn opponent.

I think Moon is quality, regardless of him not having many nuances and streamlined technical aspects, he cut off the ring well, was resiliant, hard to beat and ferocious.

I hold all effective fighters in high regard regardless of style.

I have no desire to dispute any of your points. Well said. But I'd have rather been Moon, who did face better opposition, but didn't go into every fight knowing despite being about 4-5 levels above his opponent, he's going to have to work for 12 rounds regardless. In that respect, Moon had it easy in comparison.

[Flea Man]

I have no desire to dispute any of your points. Well said. But I'd have rather been Moon, who did face better opposition, but didn't go into every fight knowing despite being about 4-5 levels above his opponent, he's going to have to work for 12 rounds regardless. In that respect, Moon had it easy in comparison.

Well, surely thats down to Yuh not maximising his chosen style, and making things harder for himself (which I personally don't think is true) and Moon definitely had to work hard in all his fights.

[Addie]

But he did his job effectivly though didnt he?

his skills is landing on his opponent, getting your feet planted correctly, getting power in his shots.

He was a good fighter due to his talent but for talent to be effective it has to be used well and he used it well he was aggresive and kept a high pace.

I've never denied that Moon was effective with the style he had, but I don't think he maximized it. Nor do I think it took a genius to work out that throwing a lot of punches and keeping a high pace would be a benefit for someone who hit hard.

What's your favorite Moon display, Greg?

[Addie]

Well, surely thats down to Yuh not maximising his chosen style, and making things harder for himself (which I personally don't think is true) and Moon definitely had to work hard in all his fights.

It had to do with Myung-Woo Yuh not having the firepower, despite all of his efforts with a high work rate, to get his man out of there. Like I said earlier, power is god-given and as hard as Yuh worked in the gym, and as much as he sacrificed, he was never going to be a heavy hitter. Yuh couldn't go into the gym and learn how to hit like George Foreman, but Moon could have worked more on fundamentals and his punching technique.

[Mantequilla]

As an aside Moon was speculated to have been showing signs of brain damage as early as the second half of his reign, hence the brief career most likely.He regularly sparred with lightweights and welterweights, which was thought to be a big contributor to the vegetable like state he is in now.

[Flea Man]

It had to do with Myung-Woo Yuh not having the firepower, despite all of his efforts with a high work rate, to get his man out of there. Like I said earlier, power is god-given and as hard as Yuh worked in the gym, and as much as he sacrificed, he was never going to be a heavy hitter. Yuh couldn't go into the gym and learn how to hit like George Foreman, but Moon could have worked more on fundamentals and his punching technique.


Would've made him less effective IMO. I understand you prefer more 'aesthetically pleasing' styles, and I can totally see where you're coming from. But someones style cannot be criticised when it is proven as effective. It's a tough one, because Moon has such an 'anti-style'. With certain fighters you could say 'needs to prove less susceptible to right hands' or 'would've been more effective if he turned over his left hook better' but Moon is so one track mind and an utter destroyer but in such a horrible way it's hard to change anything without giving him a complete overhaul, and then we'd be talking about another fighter.

[Flea Man]

As an aside Moon was speculated to have been showing signs of brain damage as early as the second half of his reign, hence the brief career most likely.He regularly sparred with lightweights and welterweights, which was thought to be a big contributor to the vegetable like state he is in now.

Didn't know that. What a shame.

[GPater11093]

I've never denied that Moon was effective with the style he had, but I don't think he maximized it. Nor do I think it took a genius to work out that throwing a lot of punches and keeping a high pace would be a benefit for someone who hit hard.

What's your favorite Moon display, Greg?

I like the Ford fight personally pretty destructive also the 2nd Konadu fight is a good display

As an aside Moon was speculated to have been showing signs of brain damage as early as the second half of his reign, hence the brief career most likely.He regularly sparred with lightweights and welterweights, which was thought to be a big contributor to the vegetable like state he is in now.

Fuck, didnt know he had brain damage not great to here

[Addie]

Would've made him less effective IMO. I understand you prefer more 'aesthetically pleasing' styles, and I can totally see where you're coming from. But someones style cannot be criticised when it is proven as effective. It's a tough one, because Moon has such an 'anti-style'. With certain fighters you could say 'needs to prove less susceptible to right hands' or 'would've been more effective if he turned over his left hook better' but Moon is so one track mind and an utter destroyer but in such a horrible way it's hard to change anything without giving him a complete overhaul, and then we'd be talking about another fighter.

I don't think I'm criticizing his style, I'm just saying that I think Yuh was a better when we consider all factors. Power, technique, defensive ability, foot work, all of these things...I think Yuh comes out on top on most of them. But he never had the equalizer Moon possessed nor the physical strength.

Yup. I didn't know Moon had brain damage either. Not a fan of him, but that's a damn shame.

[Mantequilla]

Some fighters just can't seem to do things, that in theory they should be doing given their style or talent level.calzaghe's appalling punching form being a great recent example.

Despite obviously doing a lot of work on his fundamentals and being able to deliver punches properly at last half the time, Yuh was obviously never really a great natural puncher.

Yet Moon couldn't throw a nice straight punch or textbook hook if his life depended on it.However the leverage thing was a natural talent he had anyway.