Joe Frazier vs. Superheavyweights

[rm36]

Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko

:think

[haglerforever]

Ali ,I think would be a candidate for super heavy, therfore..

Frazier KO Bowe

Frazier KO vitali Klitcho

Frazier KO Vlad klitchco

Frazier KO Lenox Lewis (only tough call)

[Boxed Ears]

Ali ,I think would be a candidate for super heavy, therfore..

Frazier KO Bowe

Frazier KO vitali Klitcho

Frazier KO Vlad klitchco

Frazier KO Lenox Lewis (only tough call)

You can't even spell Klitschko when it's right in front of you for crying out loud.

[Boxed Ears]

Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko

:think

Say what you will about the old guys are always greater or the new guys are too big. Forget that. Frazier is a type of animal that none of these guys have been in the ring with and maybe they wouldn't know how to deal. It's possible Frazier was built for Vitali the way he was built for Foreman and I'd have to favor him but a guy with that ability to get in and crack even the best with that relentless left hook to the body and head, again, none of these guys faced a Frazier. None. But Frazier may have the best shot against Wlad. That bobbing might offset the admittedly outstanding jab Wlad has and he might get knocked out. I don't see that happening with Lewis or Vitali though.

[Boxed Ears]

Say what you will about the old guys are always greater or the new guys are too big. Forget that. Frazier is a type of animal that none of these guys have been in the ring with and maybe they wouldn't know how to deal. It's possible Frazier was built for Vitali the way he was built for Foreman and I'd have to favor him but a guy with that ability to get in and crack even the best with that relentless left hook to the body and head, again, none of these guys faced a Frazier. None. But Frazier may have the best shot against Wlad. That bobbing might offset the admittedly outstanding jab Wlad has and he might get knocked out. I don't see that happening with Lewis or Vitali though.

I left out Bowe. I think prime Bowe would've been tempted to inside fight Frazer, who was squirrelier than Holy and Bowe had a lot of trouble with Holy. Bowe was a great inside fighter, especially considering being a man his size. I really don't know about that one. I'd really favor Frazier only over Wlad but say he had a good enough chance over them all and they over him.

[Mendoza]

Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko

:think

Instead of picking winners, I'll pick an overall record. 1-3 is most likely For Frazier.

[McGrain]

Probably 1-3 is about right.

[Joe]

You can't even spell Klitschko when it's right in front of you for crying out loud.

Or Lennox...

[Joe]

Probably 1-3 is about right.

Agreed.

[janitor]

I would go with 2-2 or even 3-1.

[McGrain]

Shit, yeah, I meant 3-1 not 1-3. Doh. I would expect Frazier to win more than lose.

[ricardoparker93]

3 - 1 for me. Foremans uppercuts were what destroyed Frazier so maybe a prime Bowe is the worst match up for him. But Wlads and Lewis's suspect whiskers and Vitali's lack of offensive variation see those three losing i believe.

[Vantage_West]

Instead of picking winners, I'll pick an overall record. 1-3 is most likely For Frazier.
i wonder which 3 you think will win against frazier:think:think:thinkhmn i dunno

[teeto]

i've always felt so strong that he beats wladimir brutally, he'd lose to lennox though imo,

[Vantage_West]

wlad is the most well composed of all the fighters mentioned but his chin plus with his good but limited array of punches and kinda static porous defence i dont think it could keep frazier off him and i would find it hard for wlad to land a 1-2 to stop it.
late round stoppage.


vitali i think is a tougher test. not only is he the biggest one in the group but also the only one not to get stopped, i know the cut agasint lennox and bowe technically was a dq winner but he hasnt been truely rocked yah semme. the best ko ratio (even if that is due to competition or just luck). this is the one im unsure about. is vitalis much longer range and wieght advantages going to keep frazier not only off him but also away from him and would impose himself in the clinch and land the uppercut on the way in. or will it be polar opposite vitali's hieght and robotic punches would be toopredictable and too ungainly for fraizer who would walk right through the jab, being small and mobile enough not to be bogged down on the outside and get striaght into the pocket where vitalis hieght and reach not only make him more of a target but also lack of inside work that has been a drag on klitschko's career.
i would think a ud for frazier with vitali winning the odd round for landing a few good shots and staying out of trouble.


bowe. the best inside fighter of the superheavyweights. was able to impose himself on every fighter he faced even if that didnt always lead to a great win. his combinations are much better and his body work is great for a man of his size. but his knockoutpower was mostly due to him just out-tanking you. holy gave him plenty of trouble a former cruiser who isnt much bigger than a frazier. holy was more of a boxer than joe, who would go to war if the other guy wanted to. in that, holy dropped him and hurt him numerous times in the trilogy....and also had hepatitus to top it off. going to war with frazier is never a plan that was succesful. foreman didnt get bogged down in the type of fight he kept him at bay and teed off. bowe isnt doing this. he is prolly going to get beat down horrificly. prolonged beating with some good give and take from both men but fraziers workrate and faster hands would just overwhelm him. tko mid/late


lennox....even though len is pretty ungainly his uppercut is the hardest of the group. his style is closest to foremans (who i am guessing is fraziers wolfbane) he can do it outside and inside VERY well. was very physical and barged people across the ring.

1st scenario: that lennox starts early booms the right uppercut and rigth hands while clinching and wrestling frazier to a standstill which he either drops him early and tko's him (unlikely) or he repeats and leads frazier unable to get into position which leads to an uninspiring card win for lennox. with frazier having some good spurts and winning th elater rounds.

2nd scenario: frazier is outpointed early due to lennox moving and landing lead rights and keeping the jab going...then frazier coming on strong to keep lewis covered up and in trouble like mercer did then frazier dropping the left hook just as lennox pulls out of a clinch either stopping it clean or stops lennox from winning on the cards..

to make an assumption. lennox should win. but frazier is a big puncher hard to catch real clean and lennox chin has been clipped and he has been dropped and stopped hard.





2-2 or maybe 3-1 for frazier


people are forgetting that joe was a pretty lean solid heavywieght was frazier. he may be 6ft and 200lbs but he was still pretty big in terms of physique and his style wasnt about being cute but being raw and hitting the guy as many times as possible. if he had been bigger in hieght and weight or even smaller he would be a similar fighter

hieght and wieght would be a factor, i hope i stressed that enough. but even ali arguably the most mobile heavyweight of all time was getting rope burn on his back throughout the trilogy. only punchers who have the defence and the accuracy to keep him on the backfoot. have the chance

[The Morlocks]

Ali ,I think would be a candidate for super heavy, therfore..

Frazier KO Bowe

Frazier KO vitali Klitcho

Frazier KO Vlad klitchco

Frazier KO Lenox Lewis (only tough call)
Agree wholeheartedly. Frazier was an alltime great and was only overpowered by young Foreman. Against these guys or even an 1987-2000 Foreman, he wins by ko. :hat

[PetethePrince]

3-1

Surprisingly, I favor Bowe to beat him the most due to his strong durability and great in-fighting. Lewis might win a boring hold jab affair but could get starked or lose in fight that turns into a scuffle. So if it isn't 3-1 it's 2-2. Both Klits lose.

If it's a 15 round fight, then Frazier's chances go up and he has the decent shot at going 4-0 although I wouldn't bet on it.

[ChrisPontius]

Shit, yeah, I meant 3-1 not 1-3. Doh. I would expect Frazier to win more than lose.

I was scratching my head already when i read 1-3.


Still, as much as i like Frazier, i think 1-3 sounds about right. And that's no shame, because there are few heavyweights who would have a winning record after facing those terrible 4.

[Godfather]

3-1 or 4-0

Out points Bowe
KO's Wlad
Stops Vitali on cuts

Not sure about Lennox

[TommyV]

He'd beat Vitali. Doesn't have the type of power anymore to really hurt Frazier, doesn't have the timing to catch him cleanly that often, and doesn't have the movement of a prime Ali. When he throws punches, he's hittable. He's attack or defense, one or the other, he doesn't do both at once.

He'd probably get to Wlad too. Wlad might have some success with his jab and straight right, his footwork has improved recently aswell. But I still don't feel he'd be able to get a prime Joe out of there. Wlad can hit hard but I'm not sure how often he'll throw power punches in the risk of getting caught. I think Frazier's activity and pressure will wear him down and his feet will start to become more and more routed to the canvas. When that happens, I think Joe peppers him at will with left-hooks and gets the KO.

The other's are tough calls. Bowe was durable with excellent inside skills, but hittable and I'm not sure - despite his very good uppercuts - he could deliver the type of power Foreman did from low and blow Frazier out. Therefore I'd pick Joe on points. Lewis is probably the toughest match up. Better jab and outside fighting skills, size, power, strength and more difficult to hit than Bowe. Difficult to call though I'd probably edge towards Lewis.

[Minotauro]

I favour him over both Klitschko bros and Bowe but feel Lennox would beat him

[McGrain]

Bowe could beat him. Lewis would be favourite over him. But Frazier could absolutley beat Lewis. I favour him over both Klits.

[TommyV]

Bowe could beat him. Lewis would be favourite over him. But Frazier could absolutley beat Lewis. I favour him over both Klits.

What d'you reckon Bowe's chances are of beating him? Also, who do you see having the greater success out of Wlad & Vitali?

[McGrain]

What d'you reckon Bowe's chances are of beating him? Also, who do you see having the greater success out of Wlad & Vitali?


Vitali could probably make the final bell, if Wlad doesn't KO Frazier you probably have to see him getting stopped.

Bowe took a couple of serious beatings. His heart and fortitude is proven. Marry that to his in-fighting skills and you have a horrible nights work for Joe. I think that maybe Frazier is better at making room for his Thermonuclear punches and that Bowe might lose a bit getting forced back, but I see it as nip and tuck.


In a way though, that's unfair. Bowe's prime lasted basically one night, Frazier was white hot for about 3 years.

[Duodenum]

When Joe took up boxing, he weighed over 240 pounds, and he was physically a powerhouse from years of back breaking labor. (He needed to lose weight because he was having trouble fitting his legs in his pants.) He was built differently from Tyson, but both had a compact powerhouse physique. (Even today, Joe's a thick, solid, compact block.)

The version of Frazier to consider is the 1969 to 1971 FOTC edition which came out of the Bonavena rematch. (It was only after he had those 15 grueling rounds of experience under his belt that he truly elevated himself to ATG caliber. As a result of that, Ziggy, Quarry, Ellis and Foster faced a monster in 1969 and 1970.)

Foreman was a freak, taking apart a diminished Smoke. The Klitschkos, Lennox and Bowe are huge, but they didn't have that kind of physical strength, or at least opted not to use it as freely.

Bowe would have met him on the inside. Riddick would go the distance, but nobody outhustled Joe on the inside for 12 or 15 rounds. I don't think Lennox or the Klitschkos had the aggression to win a decision over a peak Frazier, but would likely try to put some space between them. Joe would be after them, under them, and using their huge bodies as can't miss targets. Unless your name was Ali, you didn't win decisions over Smoke, and I like Joe over the distance against all of them.

[Arka]

I see Vitali as a taller version of Bonavena.This could get messy and a long night for Joe.

[OBCboxer]

Frazier UD Bowe

Frazier TKO Vitali

Frazier KO Wlad

Lewis wins a Decision over Frazier

[janitor]

3-1

Surprisingly, I favor Bowe to beat him the most due to his strong durability and great in-fighting.

Bowes habit of fighting on the inside could work one of two ways here. It is worth noting that Eddie Futch picked Frazier to beat Bowe.

I think Lewis is going to be the big problem here.

[Bokaj]

Bowes habit of fighting on the inside could work one of two ways here. It is worth noting that Eddie Futch picked Frazier to beat Bowe.

Yeah? That was interesting.

[Seamus]

If we are taking an absolutely prime Frazier and not the one that fought Ali II, III or Foreman I and II, then I must take an absolutely prime Bowe, Lewis, VK & WK.

i think all of them beat him.

[rm36]

Foreman was a freak, taking apart a diminished Smoke. The Klitschkos, Lennox and Bowe are huge, but they didn't have that kind of physical strength, or at least opted not to use it as freely.

What makes you think 250 lb. Lennox Lewis or 250 lb. Vitali wouldn't be as strong as Foreman when both are bigger and very physical fighters ?

[TommyV]

What makes you think 250 lb. Lennox Lewis or 250 lb. Vitali wouldn't be as strong as Foreman when both are bigger and very physical fighters ?

I don't think they were. They were/are both very strong, don't get me wrong, but I think Foreman the strongest fighter of all-time at HW.

But that's not really the point. The point is that isn't there game. I don't see both of them walking towards Frazier and delivering the sort of power he did with those low uppercuts, going that sort of gung-ho.

I think they both give Frazier more time and space to work by attempting to settle back on the back-foot and nab the early rounds behind there reach and the jab.

[Arka]

What makes you think 250 lb. Lennox Lewis or 250 lb. Vitali wouldn't be as strong as Foreman when both are bigger and very physical fighters ?

Lewis and Klitschko would be more difficult to move around,because of the increase in weight.

On the other hand,Foreman had probably the upper limit in the heaviness of genetic bone structure for a man of his athleticism.

I think it's conceivable he could deliver equal energy with the impact on his best shots-the uppercut and right hook- as Lewis.

[PetethePrince]

Bowes habit of fighting on the inside could work one of two ways here. It is worth noting that Eddie Futch picked Frazier to beat Bowe.

I think Lewis is going to be the big problem here.

Perhaps. Lewis has to make it boring. But Frazier can hurt him and can bother him on the inside. Lewis is very uncomfortable on the inside, more so than even Ali was and that's his major weakness. Honestly, though, Lewis through 1-2 a lot and does vary his punches. He has a dynamite uppercut and if it connects he may TKO Frazier, but if he holds back he may loss. Bowe on the other hand will come to fight and has a very game chance to outpoint Frazier. He has varied combination, a nice uppercut, great in-fighting. I'd pick the one that beat Holy to beat Frazier over 12 rounds. 15 could get interesting, but a peak prime and 232 pound Bowe has a better chance than most are giving him. I think he might be more of a threat than Lewis.

[dezbeast]

I'm sorry, I don't see even the best version of Frazier with the style he had and his size to boot coming close to beating any of those guys. I'd only favor him over someone like Byrd or maybe even Haye.

[DDA365]

Frazier would kick wlads ass. This is the same Wlad who struggled with Sam Peter launching the occasional assault right? What is he going to do with a pumped up frazier all over him from the opening bell to the bitter end?

[janitor]

Bowe on the other hand will come to fight and has a very game chance to outpoint Frazier. He has varied combination, a nice uppercut, great in-fighting. I'd pick the one that beat Holy to beat Frazier over 12 rounds.

A interesting analogy.

I think that Frazier would put a lot more pressure on Bowe than Holyfield did and if he started to tire against Frazier like he did against Holyfield I suspect the concequences would be more serious.

The big question is whether Frazier has the chin to mix it up with him like Holyfield did.

Lewis liked to fight safety first but he could go to war if he had to or if it suited his purpouses.

[rm36]

Lewis and Klitschko would be more difficult to move around,because of the increase in weight.

On the other hand,Foreman had probably the upper limit in the heaviness of genetic bone structure for a man of his athleticism.

I think it's conceivable he could deliver equal energy with the impact on his best shots-the uppercut and right hook- as Lewis.

I agree that Foreman had punching power at, or likely above the level of Lewis. But I don't think he would be much stronger than fighters today like Sam Peter.

[PetethePrince]

A interesting analogy.

I think that Frazier would put a lot more pressure on Bowe than Holyfield did and if he started to tire against Frazier like he did against Holyfield I suspect the concequences would be more serious.

The big question is whether Frazier has the chin to mix it up with him like Holyfield did.

Lewis liked to fight safety first but he could go to war if he had to or if it suited his purpouses.

Exactly, that's the intrigue of it. Bowe has the tools and skills and guns to unload, and he's weirdly comfortable on the onside.

If Lewis goes to war, I think that's a very good thing for Frazier. If Bowe goes to war, I think it's hell for both but honestly Bowe fairs better in this type of dog fight. If we're talking absolute peak Bowe. For me at least...

[Seamus]

Where is the contemporary equivalent of Joe Frazier, a 205 lb. bob & weave guy? Or are you saying he was a once in a 40 year talent? Please enlighten me.

[Arka]

I agree that Foreman had punching power at, or likely above the level of Lewis. But I don't think he would be much stronger than fighters today like Sam Peter.

Strength from increased muscle mass is good,so long as you can apply it in the ring and minimise any loss in speed and endurace .

Concerning my previous post.It requires a combination of technique and bodily strength to move and turn your opponent. But if you're bigger you'll harder to push round-just like a sumo wrestler.
An additional point- Ali was certainly stronger in the clinches than Foreman.

[Hydraulix]

I see Frazier beating all of these guys. The only one who could possibly beat him is Lennox. But there's no way Lennox could survive Joe's constant body punching and left hook power shots. Of these four, Lewis is the only one with a slight chance, but he'd have to hurt Joe early with an uppercut and then finish him from there. That's the only way.

[junior-soprano]

i see lewis winning this one. the rest looses from smokin joe, imo they don't have enough quality to beat a prime frazier

[DDA365]

Where is the contemporary equivalent of Joe Frazier, a 205 lb. bob & weave guy? Or are you saying he was a once in a 40 year talent? Please enlighten me.
There isnt one?

Such a silly argument

whos the contempary ray robinson?

oooh he obviously wasnt very good then and would lose to amir khan

[Legend X]

are you saying he was a once in a 40 year talent?

No, he was definitely a one-off.
Just once, for eternity.

[Seamus]

No, he was definitely a one-off.
Just once, for eternity.

I don't buy this argument. I think his style worked for his era and worked a short time. Maybe the closest match would be Tua when he used to have a high work rate, except Tua had more pop in punches. And we can see how Tua fared against Lewis or even closer to his prime, Ike. I just don't see a guy of Frazier's size/strength/style doing well against the superheavies.

[Bokaj]

Where is the contemporary equivalent of Joe Frazier, a 205 lb. bob & weave guy? Or are you saying he was a once in a 40 year talent? Please enlighten me.

I think you make a pretty good point actually. Frazier of course isn't a kind of fighter that comes along every now and then, though. Even in the 70 years of gloved boxing (or the 45 years of the 15 rds limit) before him there never had been a 200+ lbs guy with his work-rate and pressure. Actually, 20 lbs lighter Marciano is the only that can compete. Seen from that perspective it's less odd.

Also, with today's 12 round distance and weight-lifting Frazier would look a bit more like Cooper or Tua. He would probably be a trim 220 lbs and have the same pace over 12 as the real version had over 15.

[Bummy Davis]

Well, the Joe Frazier of Ali 1, Quarry 1, and Ellis, certainly is getting underated on this site. I dont see Bowe's workrate being able to withstand Fraziers body work and Hook.Bowe had enough power to hurt Joe but Frazier could also bang much Harder than Holyfield and Joe had great recup and stamina. I like Joe over Bowe

As far as Lewis, I would go with Lennox in this matchup but Frazier IMO hit harder with the Hook then McCall and Rahman and they both KO'd Lennox with one punch so we should not discount Joes chances and landing an incredible hook. I think Lennox would fight Joe the way he did Tua but Joe was a far greater pressure fighter than Tua and faster.

I think Vladmir at this point in time is tough to get to with his jab, movement and right hand but 10 fights or so ago I remember the hook Brewster hit him with and Brewster could not punch like Joe. The trouble with this fight is that Vlad has a very precise jab and right hand but even on his worst night Joe got up 6 times vs Foreman a prime Joe had recup...I give Vlad the edge here but do not count out Joes chances

Vitali because of his size would be hard for Joe as well but the Pressure Joe put on a fighter and stamina and work rate makes me believe this would be a battle of attrition and Vitali could also get cut. Chris Byrd was not Big but held on and survived Vits power, Joe took more punches YES but does Vitali have the power to KO Joe. I see this as a 12 rder and a close decision, could go either way.

[round15]

Prime Frazier, 1967- 1969/70, beats them all inside the 15 round distance if any of Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko's make it that far. I say Frazier's body attack, pace and work-rate would be the difference. None of these three fighters face the type of fighter Frazier was in his prime. Only Lennox Lewis faced and KO'd a very faded Tyson, who despite being in decent shape, didn't have much left.

Lewis and Bowe prime for prime against Frazier I see being the toughest challenges for him. Lewis because his outside boxing skills are underrated, his reach advantage and that he was perhaps the most athletic of the biggest heavyweights in the history of the sport. Bowe, would make the fight very interesting and could hurt Joe in his element because he had arguably the best in-fighting skills of all the big heavyweights.

Now, facing the 1973 version that Foreman Ko'ed insided two rounds. Frazier likely gets knocked out by all of the above with the quickesst KO coming from Lewis before round 5.
Bowe and the Klitschko's probably KO this version of Frazier inside 10 rounds. None of them are destroying Frazier, a depleted Frazier that was, like Foreman did in 1973.

[Legend X]

I don't buy this argument. I think his style worked for his era and worked a short time. Maybe the closest match would be Tua when he used to have a high work rate, except Tua had more pop in punches. And we can see how Tua fared against Lewis or even closer to his prime, Ike. I just don't see a guy of Frazier's size/strength/style doing well against the superheavies.

Ok, if Joe Frazier-clone fighters naturally come around more often, where are all the Joe Fraziers at cruiserweight even ?

[Seamus]

Prime Frazier, 1967- 1969/70, beats them all inside the 15 round distance if any of Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko's make it that far.

The average size of his opponents during this stretch was right about 200 pounds. Only butterball Mathis was much above. That is the crux of the issue here. Could even the best version of Frazier, who only proved himself against what would be today very undersized heavies, be enough for the best giants of the 90's and 00's. Color me sacrilegious but I think not.

[McGrain]

The average size of his opponents during this stretch was right about 200 pounds. Only butterball Mathis was much above. That is the crux of the issue here. Could even the best version of Frazier, who only proved himself against what would be today very undersized heavies, be enough for the best giants of the 90's and 00's. Color me sacrilegious but I think not.


There's nothing sacrilegious about your opinion, there are varied opinions throughout the thread, but the "problem" you think you've put your finger on is the entire point of the entire thread.

[Flea Man]

Lennox beats him-No doubt in my mind.
Vitali beats him-Just can't be bothered to think of a way that Frazier could win and debate it for 70-odd pages
He beats Wlad-easy enough.
Bowe beats him-Bowe had enough of a chin to hang with Frazier long enough to get his bombs off, as we all know Bowe was a damn good inside fighter for a man of his size. Bowe can negate getting hit too much by his jab, size and strength, as I think Frazier has the power to put Bowes lights out. Whilst strong and very tough, lets not forget that Bowe was very hurt by Holyfield throughout their series, and whilst I feel Holyfield is not as some say a 'feather fist' (I'd say he's a spiteful puncher with good form and variety) I'd definitely say Frazier has the much harder single punch of the two.

The left hook, which Bowe, who was hittable and would come to fight, was open for.

50-50, just go for Bowe's size advantages to hold out.

[Duodenum]

What makes you think 250 lb. Lennox Lewis or 250 lb. Vitali wouldn't be as strong as Foreman when both are bigger and very physical fighters ?The way George casually shoved back and pushed around steroid pumped block of granite Tommy Morrison absolutely convinces me of this. (Neither did Foreman take a backwards step against Holyfield.)

George never put any great effort into manhandling opponents like Morrison and Frazier, he did it almost as an afterthought.

In a sumo wrestling match between Foreman and Lewis or either of the Klitschkos, I would absolutely have bet the mortgage on Big George.

[TommyV]

I've decided Frazier is 4-0 in this. :smile

*Maybe some bias included.

[Bokaj]

...

[Seamus]

There's nothing sacrilegious about your opinion, there are varied opinions throughout the thread, but the "problem" you think you've put your finger on is the entire point of the entire thread.


The problem is that once he met a decent super-heavy he was bounced all over the ring. And that particular fighter wasn't even that big by recent standards, but was strong as an ox. Vit, Wlad and Lewis are all immensely strong, a common comment of opponents and sparring partners. They are also huge and skilled in using their size and strength as an advantage.

[janitor]

The problem is that once he met a decent super-heavy he was bounced all over the ring.

That "decent super heavy" was able to win the lineal title in his late 40s in this era of geneticaly enhanced superheavyweight monsters, and they couldn't den't his chin as badly as feather fisted Jimmy Young did.

[Mendoza]

Those picking Frazier to win more often then not aren't factoring in the following.

Frazier struggled vs bigger fighters, and had a suspect chin vs punchers. Style wise, when a swarmer faces a bigger puncher...the puncher is going to win more often than not. Above and beyond that, all of the above fighters are better boxers than Frazier is, which pretty much eliminates a decision win for Smokin' Joe, who was more of a grind it out type, than pure bomber.

[DDA365]

Ali was quite a decent boxer too tbf to him

[Russell]

Those picking Frazier to win more often then not aren't factoring in the following.

Frazier struggled vs bigger fighters, and had a suspect chin vs punchers. Style wise, when a swarmer faces a bigger puncher...the puncher is going to win more often than not. Above and beyond that, all of the above fighters are better boxers than Frazier is, which pretty much eliminates a decision win for Smokin' Joe, who was more of a grind it out type, than pure bomber.

There's no basis for pressure fighters being consistently at a disadvantage against bigger punchers them themselves.

Also, Vitali is also a grind you out style of fighter who often took far too long to get his guy out of their, stopping opponents with all the effectivness of a man clubbing and failing to kill a rabbit.

Vitali also didn't affect a ancient Lennox Lewis as much as the following fighters whom, by your own standards, must of been harder punchers.

Shannon Briggs
Gary Mason
Frank Bruno
Hasim Rahman and Oliver McCall (sparked him the fuck out and one shotted him)

Now I'm focusing on Vitali because you seem sold on him beating Frazier, beyond that 9/10ths of your posts are about the man regardless so... :lol:

[round15]

Those picking Frazier to win more often then not aren't factoring in the following.

Frazier struggled vs bigger fighters, and had a suspect chin vs punchers. Style wise, when a swarmer faces a bigger puncher...the puncher is going to win more often than not. Above and beyond that, all of the above fighters are better boxers than Frazier is, which pretty much eliminates a decision win for Smokin' Joe, who was more of a grind it out type, than pure bomber.

I Understand your point Mendoza, nice post. I think you're underrating Frazier's skills as a boxer though. Eddie Futch to the day he died said Frazier would be too much for Bowe to handle and would beat him convincingly.

Mike Tyson is the last heavyweight that moved his head and rotated his shoulders in the manner of attacking style that Frazier did. Tua stood up a lot more and didn't move his head as much. Part of Joe's game was to make people miss with his head movement. You contradict yourself suggesting that Frazier, not as a pure bomber but grind-it-out type fighter wouldn't win a decision? If Bowe, Lewis, or either Klitschko makes it past the middle rounds against a prime Frazier, do you honestly think their work-rates would be greater than Fraziers? I highly doubt that. I favour Joe winning decisions against all of these superheavies, prime for prime, based on the fact that stamina would be an issue. Joe is one of the top all time heavies for pure stamina, with Marciano arguably ahead of him or behind him.

Speed would also be a factor because none of these superheavies were as quick on foot as Ali, and Frazier caught Ali repeatedly in the FOTC. Sure, Ali wasn't the fleet footed boxer he was in 1967, but he was still the fastest heavyweight on foot at the time, and compared to today, he still is. Only featherdusting Chris Byrd or Roy Jones, albeit never a true heavyweight can compare footspeed to Ali. Again, the only Frazier that these superheavies beat convincingly is the one who showed up in 1973 that got whupped by Foreman.

[round15]

If we are taking an absolutely prime Frazier and not the one that fought Ali II, III or Foreman I and II, then I must take an absolutely prime Bowe, Lewis, VK & WK.

i think all of them beat him.

I think Frazier beats all of them prime for prime.

[Seamus]

That "decent super heavy" was able to win the lineal title in his late 40s in this era of geneticaly enhanced superheavyweight monsters, and they couldn't den't his chin as badly as feather fisted Jimmy Young did.

Lineal title in the 90's means shit to me. Frans Botha had Moorer reeling, too. And Axel Schulz, Alex Stewart and Lou Savarese beat that version of Foreman in my book. The discussion regarding Big George is immaterial. We are talking about Frazier's response to the truly big men of recent heavyweights.

[round15]

I'm sorry, I don't see even the best version of Frazier with the style he had and his size to boot coming close to beating any of those guys. I'd only favor him over someone like Byrd or maybe even Haye.


I'm sorry, but I don't see Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko's being difficult targets for Frazier to hit. These four big heavyweight bodies would get ripped on the inside from Frazier's body shots and constant pressure.
Only Bowe makes it interesting, prime for prime, because he had considerable inside skills as a big man.

Chris Byrd? David Haye? You serious?

[dezbeast]

You'll get no argument from me. The 70's heavyweights are by far my favorite of all the boxers. That being said, I just can't visualize Frazier beating any of those guys no matter how much a benefit of a doubt I give him. Note I'm pretty scientific with my approach. I factor things that the general diehard boxing fan wouldn't. Plus I am a diehard 70's fan myself and I have quite an abudance of knowledge about Frazier in case you think I'm speaking out of bias toward the modern heavyweights.

[McGrain]

The problem is that once he met a decent super-heavy he was bounced all over the ring.

Foreman wasn't "decent", he was a little better than that. ATG.

And that particular fighter wasn't even that big by recent standards, but was strong as an ox. Vit, Wlad and Lewis are all immensely strong, a common comment of opponents and sparring partners. They are also huge and skilled in using their size and strength as an advantage.


Bowe doesn't hit anything like as hard.

Wlad and Vitali aren't anything like as aggressive.

You've basically compared these four very different fighters to the one man to ever dominate Frazier and drawn as broad a conclusion as possible. No analysis here.

[Mendoza]

There's no basis for pressure fighters being consistently at a disadvantage against bigger punchers them themselves.


Russell,

Since your poking fun at me, here's your touché. What you don't know about boxing can fill an ocean. Punchers usually beat swarmers, especially if they are better boxers and have the better chin.

In this match up, Frazier gives up size, durability in 3 of 4 cases, and power in at least 3 of 4 cases. Since Frazier has to pay the price to get inside, and can be handled in a clinch by a bigger man, and only has one punch to worry about.....use your imagination

[DDA365]

Wlads a class boxer but he cant fight. As soon as hes in a fight he panics, usually gets hurt, and then starts trying to run away looking to make it out the round.

Sam Peter was fast enough to catch him and scare the shit out of him on a few occasions, and frazier wouldnt be able to?

The other fights are interesting ones but dismissing Frazier against somebody as vulnerable as wlad is just ludicrous. As is claiming they were all too good boxers for Frazier to win a decision against whne he decisioned THE greatest heavyweight boxer.

[round15]

Russell,

Since your poking fun at me, here's your touché. What you don't know about boxing can fill an ocean. Punchers usually beat swarmers, especially if they are better boxers and have the better chin.

In this match up, Frazier gives up size, durability in 3 of 4 cases, and power in at least 3 of 4 cases. Since Frazier has to pay the price to get inside, and can be handled in a clinch by a bigger man, and only has one punch to worry about.....use your imagination

Agree with you Mendoza.

Frazier does have a significant size disadvantage to all of these superheavyweight fighters, there's no denying that. Durability though, prime for prime? That one is debatable.

George Chuvalo personally told me Frazier's left hook was a deadly shot and his right hand was an underrated hard punch too, considering that Frazier is celebrated most for his left hook. He also said Foreman had tremendous power in both hands but still feels cheated to this day by the refs who stopped that fight early contending that he wasn't hurt even though Foreman had him backing him up. Chuvalo said 1960's Ali would have beaten everyone today, because Ali's power before his exile was underrated and his hand and footspeed were arguably the fastest of all time at heavyweight.

Frazier paid the price getting inside against Ali in three fights, Manilla being the most damaging IMO. Still in the other two, Frazier landed big shots against Ali who was backpedalling for the majority of the first and second. None of these four superheavyweights mentioned above would catch prime Frazier as cleanly as Ali did because they don't have the handspeed or footspeed to set up and land the same amout of punches. Again, I'm not talking about the depleted Joe Frazier who showed up to defend his title against Foreman, because that version of Frazier likely gets KO'ed by all of the above big men inside 8 rounds.

I don't think Bowe, Lewis, Vitali or Wlad make it the championship rounds against pre FOTC - FOTC Joe Frazier. Lennox Lewis, if he brings the temperment and self fear that Foreman brought to his fight against Frazier with the thinking that he'd better finish Joe early or get knocked out himself, could definitely make this fight interesting with Frazier visiting the canvas once or twice. The same thing for Riddick Bowe, because he does have power, and solid inside skills but none of them are the animal that Foreman was when he fought Frazier in 1973.

I'd bet on these four guys trying to set up jabs and right hands early against Frazier, trying to keep a safe distance, only to have the gap closed by the middle rounds, and all being on the receiving end of some wicked body shots from Frazier.

[frankenfrank]

Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko

:think
all would have abused him foreman style.
but maybe somehow against wlad he could repeat brewster scenario but much better chance for a wlad stoppage.
if tyson and tua could not beat lewis , frazier who did not carry the power of either one of them and also did not posses tua's chin , and also smaller even than mccall and rahman and holyfield and mercer will probably have no realistic chance against him.
bowe and vitali feasted on the likes of frazier . easy meal for both.

[round15]

all would have abused him foreman style.
but maybe somehow against wlad he could repeat brewster scenario but much better chance for a wlad stoppage.
if tyson and tua could not beat lewis , frazier who did not carry the power of either one of them and also did not posses tua's chin , and also smaller even than mccall and rahman and holyfield and mercer will probably have no realistic chance against him.
bowe and vitali feasted on the likes of frazier . easy meal for both.

The Mike Tyson that fought Lennox Lewis had no business fighting Lennox Lewis at that stage of his career, especially weighing in excess of 230 lbs. I believe Mike's weight at fight time was 240 lbs. Lewis was still scared of this depleted version of Tyson and probably could have finished him earlier than the 8th round. This is a fight that probably has drastically different results if Lewis faced a Tyson near his prime weight and prime shape, 215 - 220 lbs.

Tua and Tyson stood in front of Lewis trying to get inside his reach with very little head movement. Pre-FOTC Joe Frazier would be much more difficult for any of the above mentioned to hit cleanly, and all them being superheavyweights provide Frazier with a sizeable target for his body shots.

I don't believe Lennox beat Holyfield the second time around as convincingly as some say on this forum, and in fact there are more than a few people who believe Lennox was handed the rematch victory based on the controversial decision from the first fight.

I will agree with you that Bowe, Lewis and the Klitschkos could beat the lazy, out of shape 1973 version of Frazier like Foreman did but not as severe a beating. Perhaps Lewis KOs this version of Frazier in less than 5 rounds, and Bowe probably 7 or 8.

None of the above would last 12 rounds against prime Frazier, pre-FOTC and I'd favour Joe stopping all of them before the 15 round distance.

[PetethePrince]

Russell,

Since your poking fun at me, here's your touché. What you don't know about boxing can fill an ocean. Punchers usually beat swarmers, especially if they are better boxers and have the better chin.

In this match up, Frazier gives up size, durability in 3 of 4 cases, and power in at least 3 of 4 cases. Since Frazier has to pay the price to get inside, and can be handled in a clinch by a bigger man, and only has one punch to worry about.....use your imagination

Lewis more durable than Frazier? Man the Foreman fight really haunts him.

[PetethePrince]

Agree with you Mendoza.

Frazier does have a significant size disadvantage to all of these superheavyweight fighters, there's no denying that. Durability though, prime for prime? That one is debatable.

George Chuvalo personally told me Frazier's left hook was a deadly shot and his right hand was an underrated hard punch too, considering that Frazier is celebrated most for his left hook. He also said Foreman had tremendous power in both hands but still feels cheated to this day by the refs who stopped that fight early contending that he wasn't hurt even though Foreman had him backing him up. Chuvalo said 1960's Ali would have beaten everyone today, because Ali's power before his exile was underrated and his hand and footspeed were arguably the fastest of all time at heavyweight.

Chuvalo said a lot of things. Some in his own interest to boost the fighters around him, thereby enhancing his legacy. Although, I think he's right about a lot of the stuff he says about the 70's fighters. Still... he thinks he out-jabbed and beat Ali in their rematch. Just to put things in perspective as Chuvalo credibility can be less than stellar at times.

[PetethePrince]

I dare say Lennox Lewis is beating overrating on these quarters, on the grounds against Joe Frazier. For some reason, I have trouble giving him the kind of faith others seem to do in this mythical fight. Anybody agree with this suspicion?

[Mendoza]

Agree with you Mendoza.

Frazier does have a significant size disadvantage to all of these superheavyweight fighters, there's no denying that. Durability though, prime for prime? That one is debatable.

George Chuvalo personally told me Frazier's left hook was a deadly shot and his right hand was an underrated hard punch too, considering that Frazier is celebrated most for his left hook. He also said Foreman had tremendous power in both hands but still feels cheated to this day by the refs who stopped that fight early contending that he wasn't hurt even though Foreman had him backing him up. Chuvalo said 1960's Ali would have beaten everyone today, because Ali's power before his exile was underrated and his hand and footspeed were arguably the fastest of all time at heavyweight.

Frazier paid the price getting inside against Ali in three fights, Manilla being the most damaging IMO. Still in the other two, Frazier landed big shots against Ali who was backpedalling for the majority of the first and second. None of these four superheavyweights mentioned above would catch prime Frazier as cleanly as Ali did because they don't have the handspeed or footspeed to set up and land the same amout of punches. Again, I'm not talking about the depleted Joe Frazier who showed up to defend his title against Foreman, because that version of Frazier likely gets KO'ed by all of the above big men inside 8 rounds.

I don't think Bowe, Lewis, Vitali or Wlad make it the championship rounds against pre FOTC - FOTC Joe Frazier. Lennox Lewis, if he brings the temperment and self fear that Foreman brought to his fight against Frazier with the thinking that he'd better finish Joe early or get knocked out himself, could definitely make this fight interesting with Frazier visiting the canvas once or twice. The same thing for Riddick Bowe, because he does have power, and solid inside skills but none of them are the animal that Foreman was when he fought Frazier in 1973.

I'd bet on these four guys trying to set up jabs and right hands early against Frazier, trying to keep a safe distance, only to have the gap closed by the middle rounds, and all being on the receiving end of some wicked body shots from Frazier.

Ali wasn't a good in-fighter at all. Lewis, and Bowe were. Frazier is in trouble here. While Wlad is not a good in-fighter, he clinches even better than Ali did, and is so tall it would really limit Frazier's range.

Ali tended to take breaks on the ropes, this is where Frazier went to work on him. Wlad, Bowe, and Lewis know better than to spend time on the ropes, and although I do think Ali had solid power, Ali is not in Bowe's, Lewis, Wlad's class as a puncher.

Sorry, Frazier was rocked and stunned too often on film by journeyman, nearly KO'd by Bonevenna, and easily floored and hurt by Foreman. Foreman was not as fast or as accurate as Lewis, Bowe, and Wlad were. As the film shows, Foreman had no trouble at all landing on Frazier. I'm not buying Frazier's defense will help him here.

I don't think Frazier is equipped to take out super heavies. He just does not have a solid enough chin, size, or versatility.

[McGrain]

While Wlad is not a good in-fighter, he clinches even better than Ali did, and is so tall it would really limit Frazier's range.

I don't think that's acceptable. Given the amount of control (arguably illegaly, but still) Ali achieves over Frazier in II with the clinches, I certainly don't think you can say that it is proven that Wlad is a "better" clincher than Ali, and given Ali's control over Frazier in NY and Foreman in Zaire with wrestling/clinching manueveres he's certainly much more proven at a higher class and against a vastly superior class of infighter (arguably the best in HW history)

Ali tended to take breaks on the ropes, this is where Frazier went to work on him. Wlad, Bowe, and Lewis know better than to spend time on the ropes,

Wlad, Bowe and Lewis know better, but Ali was a dumb fighter? Ali wanted no part of the ropes verus Frazier. But he knew he was headed there from the first bell. This is not a matter of smarts, ring generalship or "knowing better" it's a matter of fast pressure.

Sorry, Frazier was rocked and stunned too often on film by journeyman, nearly KO'd by Bonevenna, and easily floored and hurt by Foreman.

This is illustrative of a newish epidemic on the forum for rating fighters chins based upon who hurt them. ALL fighters get hurt. Come forward swarmers/brawlers get hurt most of all. Frazier was stopped 3 times. Once on accumilation in one of the most heroic filmed efforts in fight history, twice by one of the most feared punchers in history, all past prime. That is how we judge his chin, not his "nearly getting KO'd".

Foreman was not as fast or as accurate as Lewis, Bowe, and Wlad were.

But he was more aggressive than all of them and has a better chin than two of them (also the two that happen to hit the hardest). In short, you're focusing on the one area of interest to your desired outocome.

As the film shows, Foreman had no trouble at all landing on Frazier. I'm not buying Frazier's defense will help him here.

Film also shows that Frazier's defence had deteriorated by the time of these fights.

[Jaws]

I don't think either Klit has the skillset to beat him.

Bowe is 50/50. Bowe's lack of defense and willingness to trade could get him into trouble, or could get him the win. Very hard to see. This would be an absolute war.

Lewis beats him.

So, 3-1, or 2-2.

[lolb]

I think he definitely beats Wlad by ko. He would get inside that jab and land something big (probably a left hook) and Wlad would never recover.

Bowe if he imposed his size could be a tricky fight. But I think he may get drawn into a war which would suit Frazier. Bowe doesn't have the power of a Foreman so I see Frazier out hussling him for a decision.

Vitali to me is still a fairly unknown quantity as he hasn't faced anyone on the level of Frazier apart from a well out of condition and past prime Lennox Lewis. He obviously seems to have a granite chin and good power. This is tough to call because Frazier constantly walks forward and this could play into Vitali's hands. But we haven't seen Klit under the kind of pressure Smokin' Joe would put him under. I would say Frazier by decision.

Lewis would be a very good fight but I just feel Lennoxs ability to box on the outside using his physical advantages would see him get the decision. His wins against a past prime Tyson and a poor Tua can by no means compare to a prime Frazier but I think are a guage as to how he would approach the fight.

So yeah I agree Frazier 3 - 1.

[Flea Man]

I don't think that's acceptable. Given the amount of control (arguably illegaly, but still) Ali achieves over Frazier in II with the clinches, I certainly don't think you can say that it is proven that Wlad is a "better" clincher than Ali, and given Ali's control over Frazier in NY and Foreman in Zaire with wrestling/clinching manueveres he's certainly much more proven at a higher class and against a vastly superior class of infighter (arguably the best in HW history)



Wlad, Bowe and Lewis know better, but Ali was a dumb fighter? Ali wanted no part of the ropes verus Frazier. But he knew he was headed there from the first bell. This is not a matter of smarts, ring generalship or "knowing better" it's a matter of fast pressure.



This is illustrative of a newish epidemic on the forum for rating fighters chins based upon who hurt them. ALL fighters get hurt. Come forward swarmers/brawlers get hurt most of all. Frazier was stopped 3 times. Once on accumilation in one of the most heroic filmed efforts in fight history, twice by one of the most feared punchers in history, all past prime. That is how we judge his chin, not his "nearly getting KO'd".



But he was more aggressive than all of them and has a better chin than two of them (also the two that happen to hit the hardest). In short, you're focusing on the one area of interest to your desired outocome.



Film also shows that Frazier's defence had deteriorated by the time of these fights.

Lovely dissection:good

I would say though, that Frazier was pretty near to his prime when the 1st Foreman fight came aroundl; unless you think that first Ali fight ruined him? I personally don't feel so, just feel Foreman had Fraziers number and was, at that point (and possibly now) the most demonic force in Heavyweight history.

[PetethePrince]

Ali wasn't a good in-fighter at all. Lewis, and Bowe were. Frazier is in trouble here. While Wlad is not a good in-fighter, he clinches even better than Ali did, and is so tall it would really limit Frazier's range.

:lol:

And... Lewis was in no way a good in-fighter. In fact, Ali was superior in this department.

Ali tended to take breaks on the ropes, this is where Frazier went to work on him.

Yes for FOTC over 15 rounds right after exile. Not the Ali of fight 2, and Manilla fight isn't worth mentioning consider both fighters decline.

Wlad, Bowe, and Lewis know better than to spend time on the ropes, and although I do think Ali had solid power, Ali is not in Bowe's, Lewis, Wlad's class as a puncher.

Good thing they would spend no time throwing half as many punches.

Advantage Frazier.

[frankenfrank]

I don't buy this argument. I think his style worked for his era and worked a short time. Maybe the closest match would be Tua when he used to have a high work rate, except Tua had more pop in punches. And we can see how Tua fared against Lewis or even closer to his prime, Ike. I just don't see a guy of Frazier's size/strength/style doing well against the superheavies.
when i first read your question about the 205lbs bob and weave guy toney came to mind , then tyson. tua did not for some reason.
he is the least elusive of these 4 and neither one of tyson , tua , frazier , toney would have a win against neither of the terrrible 4 : wlad , lewis , vitali , bowe. maybe the primest tyson would have had a chance against anyone excpet vitali. but just a chance. and tyson was more than 205lbs.
frazier would have lost to them all. but maybe could repeat what brewster did against wlad , but only maybe.
if i was frazier's manager and forced to pick one of those 4 it would have been wlad. but i still consider wlad the favorite to even stop frazier or at least decision him wildly. but wlad TKO frazier is the most realistic option.

[janitor]

I don't think that there has been anything comparable to Frazier within the careers of the four superheavyweights listed.

Tua?

Don't make me laugh.

The guy was in slow motion compared to Frazier in full cry, even at the stage of his career when his workrate was right up there.

That is before we even get into his lack of training ethic, willingnes to take punishment to land his punches and everything else crucial to a pressure fighter.

Comparisons between Frazier and fighters like Brewstewr or Peter are even more far fetched.

It can somtimes be informative to watch compilations of footage that show various great heavyweights consecutively. You can be surprized by what pops out of the screen at you. In Fraziers case I honestly thought that he was faster on the offense than Tyson.

[Jaws]

I don't think that there has been anything comparable to Frazier within the careers of the four superheavyweights listed.

Tua?

Don't make me laugh.

The guy was in slow motion compared to Frazier in full cry, even at the stage of his career when his workrate was right up there.

That is before we even get into his lack of training ethic, willingnes to take punishment to land his punches and everything else crucial to a pressure fighter.

Comparisons between Frazier and fighters like Brewstewr or Peter are even more far fetched.

It can somtimes be informative to watch compilations of footage that show various great heavyweights consecutively. You can be surprized by what pops out of the screen at you. In Fraziers case I honestly thought that he was faster on the offense than Tyson.

+1

I have similar observations when I watch Frazier. He really blows me away sometimes. I think he is underrated because of his relatively light weight, which I think is partially a result of his era.

Look at how thick and big he looks in the ring next to his son and Tyson in their stare down at 1:06:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[janitor]

Look at how thick and big he looks in the ring next to his son and Tyson in their stare down at 1:06:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

You can quote two fighters heights and weights but untill you see them together you never quite know what you are comparing.

[Seamus]

I don't think that there has been anything comparable to Frazier within the careers of the four superheavyweights listed.

Tua?

Don't make me laugh.

The guy was in slow motion compared to Frazier in full cry, even at the stage of his career when his workrate was right up there.

That is before we even get into his lack of training ethic, willingnes to take punishment to land his punches and everything else crucial to a pressure fighter.

Comparisons between Frazier and fighters like Brewstewr or Peter are even more far fetched.

It can somtimes be informative to watch compilations of footage that show various great heavyweights consecutively. You can be surprized by what pops out of the screen at you. In Fraziers case I honestly thought that he was faster on the offense than Tyson.

If Frazier was so damned hard to hit why was his head the size of a pumpkin after every time he fought a decent fighter? He made his mark on b-level small heavyweights and a great, small heavyweight who was on the comeback trail. That is it. He gets obliterated by modern-sized heavies as was proven by the skillfully challenged though strong Foreman.

[Mendoza]

McGrain I don't think that's acceptable. Given the amount of control (arguably illegaly, but still) Ali achieves over Frazier in II with the clinches, I certainly don't think you can say that it is proven that Wlad is a "better" clincher than Ali, and given Ali's control over Frazier in NY and Foreman in Zaire with wrestling/clinching manueveres he's certainly much more proven at a higher class and against a vastly superior class of infighter (arguably the best in HW history)

Clinching is more than just grabbing the other guy illegal in the back of the head, which is what Ali got away with. Wlad has a skillful method of clinching that is executed with technique, speed and power...and he's stronger than Ali was, and has a good 25-30 pounds on Ali. Yes, Wlad is a better clincher than Ali is/was.


Wlad, Bowe and Lewis know better, but Ali was a dumb fighter? Ali wanted no part of the ropes verus Frazier. But he knew he was headed there from the first bell. This is not a matter of smarts, ring generalship or "knowing better" it's a matter of fast pressure.


I never said Ali was a dumb fighter, but he took many breaks on the ropes, including fights that had nothing to do with Frazier. Ali was not always in tip top shape. The films show this, and excess flesh around Ali's mid section can been see in a few of his fights pre Spinks. While Ali took breaks on the ropes, Lewis, Bowe, and Wlad never did. Because Ali wasn't a huge puncher, people could rush him without having to worry about a fight changing power shot. Sometimes I get the feeling most here are well read, but really have not been in a boxing ring, or talked to fighters. The bottom line is if your in there with a big puncher, he gets RESPECT. If he's skilled, even more so. Ali was not a big puncher, hence people did not fear his power.


This is illustrative of a newish epidemic on the forum for rating fighters chins based upon who hurt them. ALL fighters get hurt. Come forward swarmers/brawlers get hurt most of all. Frazier was stopped 3 times. Once on accumilation in one of the most heroic filmed efforts in fight history, twice by one of the most feared punchers in history, all past prime. That is how we judge his chin, not his "nearly getting KO'd".

Allow me to fill in the blanks of Frazier's career. As an amateur he was down plenty. Frazier was floored in his 2nd pro fight vs a poor fighter, stunned by the likes of that Mexican heavy, Stander ( who buckled Frazier's knees ), and Bugner. The thing to focus on is these guys hardly landed clean shot, yet when the did, Frazier did not take them well. Frazier could go many rounds with Ali. Again, Wlad, Bowe, and Lewis hit much harder. In addition, Frazier management did not match him with big punchers such as Shavers, Lyle or Norton, or vs. Sonny Liston or Mac Foster. Let's be reasonable here Cloverlay and Yank Durham knew Frazier was best suited to chew up smaller boxers without a lot of power. If a mid level puncher like Bonevena could nearly TKO Frazier, then a big puncher could do a lot more.

Film also shows that Frazier's defence had deteriorated by the time of these fights.

Which fights? Frazier was behind on points until about round 8 vs a fat Buster Mathis ( who was a lighter punching near super heavy ), got caught clean vs Bonevena, and was easily targeted by Foreman. I think people confuse an occasional slip or duck with good defense. Good defense means the other guy misses you a lot.

[Mendoza]

PetethePrince;5678263]:lol:

And... Lewis was in no way a good in-fighter. In fact, Ali was superior in this department.

Ali was superior to Lewis as an in-fighter??? You do not know what you are talking about, and no serious boxing historian or analysts would agree with you. But hey, laugh on...

[PetethePrince]

+1

I have similar observations when I watch Frazier. He really blows me away sometimes. I think he is underrated because of his relatively light weight, which I think is partially a result of his era.

Look at how thick and big he looks in the ring next to his son and Tyson in their stare down at 1:06:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Such a badass stare from Frazier. The trainer/dad of the fighter and he's still got that intense stare down to the future of the HW division and perceived new "HW intimidator."

[PetethePrince]

If Frazier was so damned hard to hit why was his head the size of a pumpkin after every time he fought a decent fighter? He made his mark on b-level small heavyweights and a great, small heavyweight who was on the comeback trail. That is it. He gets obliterated by modern-sized heavies as was proven by the skillfully challenged though strong Foreman.

LoL, yes 1 man and 1 overweight, poorly disciplined/trained Frazier ruins his chances against super-heavyweights. Eddie Futch said he had a "Tendency to swell up pretty bad during fights, but he didn't cut much."

[PetethePrince]

Ali was superior to Lewis as an in-fighter??? You do not know what you are talking about, and no serious boxing historian or analysts would agree with you. But hey, laugh on...

He was certainly more comfortable, more often which I think is the only thing that really matters. It was a weakness of both and Lewis just seemed passive enough to engage in a jab clinch affair if he could. Ali tussled in the war grounds with Frazier. I think that speaks for it self.

You say Wlad is a better clincher because of some technique and power. GTFO. No historian or serious boxing poster would agree with that. What groundbreaking technique do you speak of? Ali was a master clincher in his post exile career. Wlads gets KTFO by Frazier anyway so who cares.

[Pusnuts]

Frazier was 1-handed and quite small and weak, Foreman sucked, Frazier gets destroyed by Tyson or a number of modern heavyweights.
Reasonably quick, great stamina, power overrated and repetoire extremely overrated.

[McGrain]

Clinching is more than just grabbing the other guy illegal in the back of the head, which is what Ali got away with. Wlad has a skillful method of clinching that is executed with technique, speed and power...and he's stronger than Ali was, and has a good 25-30 pounds on Ali. Yes, Wlad is a better clincher than Ali is/was.

Your surity astounds me given Ali's greater success agaisnt top line opponents and his experience controlling these superior men inside. Wlad as a clincher is in no way more advanced than Ali. Both are rudamentary, Ali has shown himself able to control one of the greatest in-fighters ever in boxing with his rudementary skill, Wlad has controlled the likes of Chagaev in this way. I can't see where the leeway is to label Klitschko "better" at all.



I never said Ali was a dumb fighter, but he took many breaks on the ropes, including fights that had nothing to do with Frazier. Ali was not always in tip top shape.

Ali was always in top shape for Frazier, whom he regarded as the #2 HW in history by the end of their series. He did take breaks against other fighters for this reason, but not against Frazier in I and not against Frazier in II. He's on the ropes because he's trapped there. Of course, this doesn't mean that Frazier can force all opponents to the ropes. It's a matter of styles. But it's certainly not a matter of smarts, as you've implied.

Sometimes I get the feeling most here are well read, but really have not been in a boxing ring, or talked to fighters. The bottom line is if your in there with a big puncher, he gets RESPECT. If he's skilled, even more so. Ali was not a big puncher, hence people did not fear his power.

I've boxed, i've talked to fighters, unless you mean proffessional champions?

Regardless of this total irrelevance, in what ways do you think Frazier will box Wlad differently than he boxed Young? How will this respect manifest itself?




Allow me to fill in the blanks of Frazier's career. As an amateur he was down plenty. Frazier was floored in his 2nd pro fight vs a poor fighter, stunned by the likes of that Mexican heavy, Stander ( who buckled Frazier's knees ), and Bugner. The thing to focus on is these guys hardly landed clean shot, yet when the did, Frazier did not take them well. Frazier could go many rounds with Ali. Again, Wlad, Bowe, and Lewis hit much harder. In addition, Frazier management did not match him with big punchers such as Shavers, Lyle or Norton, or vs. Sonny Liston or Mac Foster. Let's be reasonable here Cloverlay and Yank Durham knew Frazier was best suited to chew up smaller boxers without a lot of power. If a mid level puncher like Bonevena could nearly TKO Frazier, then a big puncher could do a lot more.

Frazier was HW champion of the world. He fought 37 fights and was stopped 3 times, once in one of the most herioc filmed efforts in boxing history, twice by one of the most feared punchers in history. These statistics here are far, far more important than someone who once "buckled his knees" or what happened to him as an amature. Frazier is vulnerable to aggressive massive punchers - that's proven. Trying to line him up for a KO versus EVERY puncher he faces because of that is nonsense, not to say lazy. Frazier showed astonishing resiliance in Foreman I. The type of resiliance that NONE of these four are able to claim and that Lewis and Wlad cannot dream of approaching.

Lyle - the only time Frazier could really have matched Lyle was in a high-risk low-reward fight post-Ali II, pre Ali III. He decided to match TOP CONTENDERS on his comeback trail, but should be forgiven for taking men he knew he had previously met - the best measure of a fighters relative ability. He then fought Ali, he then fought maybe the biggest HW puncher in history for a SECOND time, then he packed it in. No window for Lyle, really.

Liston - ??????? Liston beat ONE ranked contender post Ali and was the most widely avoided fighter, probably since Burley/Williams/Booker, possibly more so. You want Frazier to fight Liston? Based upon what?

Norton - the men were friends. The fight may have happened were Frazier a long reigning champion.

Shavers - at the time of Frazier's retirement, Shavers hadn't even fought over the title distance. Of course the two never met. Are you just picking names out of a hat?

Foreman - huge puncher, met by Frazier twice.

I suspect that you're just repeating "Frazier avoided punchers" because you read it on the forum. A closer look reveals the truth, as is often the case.



Which fights? Frazier was behind on points until about round 8 vs a fat Buster Mathis ( who was a lighter punching near super heavy ), got caught clean vs Bonevena, and was easily targeted by Foreman. I think people confuse an occasional slip or duck with good defense. Good defense means the other guy misses you a lot.

Any fight between 68 and 71. I think YOU confuse getting hit with having a bad defence. A short, swarming fighter is going to get hit and going to get hurt Mendoza. It was true of Demspey, Tyson, Patterson. All have excellent defence. I think that Frazier had a better defence than Patterson although a worse defence than Demspey. Probably something equivilant to Tyson's. All were excellent. It is, of course, possible to list the men who buckled their knees, knocked them out, hurt them, put them down. Trying to draw, from that, the conclusion that they are chinless or have a bad defence is just bizarre.

Probably FOTC I is your best bet where we see Frazier repeatedly slip one of the best jab in history, including with his hands down by his sides for kicks. You can also see him out-jab the taller, rangier Foster based mainly upon defence in the first round of their fight.

[China_hand_Joe]

Liston - ??????? Liston beat ONE ranked contender post Ali and was the most widely avoided fighter


Liston probably did the avoiding to be fair.

[Mendoza]

McGrain Your surity astounds me given Ali's greater success agaisnt top line opponents and his experience controlling these superior men inside. Wlad as a clincher is in no way more advanced than Ali. Both are rudamentary, Ali has shown himself able to control one of the greatest in-fighters ever in boxing with his rudementary skill, Wlad has controlled the likes of Chagaev in this way. I can't see where the leeway is to label Klitschko "better" at all.

Most of Ali clinching is on the ropes, and like i said his technique was illegal with the numerous grabbing behind the heads. Check the films. Did Ali clinch much in the center of the ring? Not much. Wlad can excuse a clinch faster and better legally, on the ropes or in the center of the ring where it is harder to clinch. Also, Wlad hardly clinched Chagaev at all.



Ali was always in top shape for Frazier, whom he regarded as the #2 HW in history by the end of their series. He did take breaks against other fighters for this reason, but not against Frazier in I and not against Frazier in II.

The 2nd Ali vs. Frazier fight stunk, and Ali clinched often.


Regardless of this total irrelevance, in what ways do you think Frazier will box Wlad differently than he boxed Young? How will this respect manifest itself?

Frazier would not have to respect Young power. As I said twice before, when you in with a puncher you have to respect his power. The reckless abandon that Frazier used vs weaker punching boxers would be replaced by a more measured approach vs a puncher. There's your differnce. If you say you have boxed before, then you should graps this concept.



Frazier was HW champion of the world. He fought 37 fights and was stopped 3 times, once in one of the most herioc filmed efforts in boxing history, twice by one of the most feared punchers in history. These statistics here are far, far more important than someone who once "buckled his knees" or what happened to him as an amature. Frazier is vulnerable to aggressive massive punchers - that's proven.

Trying to line him up for a KO versus EVERY puncher he faces because of that is nonsense, not to say lazy. Frazier showed astonishing resiliance in Foreman I. The type of resiliance that NONE of these four are able to claim and that Lewis and Wlad cannot dream of approaching.


Yes, Frazier was Ko'd three times in 37 fights. OK, Wlad was Ko'd three times in 50+ fights, yet the critics say his chin is suspect. Let's get real, Foreman easily hurt and floored Frazier. While Joe had plenty of heart, Foreman floored Frazier with shocking ease. This is the only big puncher Frazier fought...and Wlad, Bowe, and Lewis are also big punchers. Those who know boxing will tell you Wlad, Bowe, and Lewis hit very hard, and had more skill, speed, and accuracy than Foreman did. Plus a heck of a lot more stamina. How is Frazier going to take their punches? The elementary deduction is he won't take them for long. Furthermore, a mere solid hitter in Bonevena proved its not only the big punchers that could hurt Frazier, and as I pointed out guys who barley connected had some visible results. Smoking' Joe did not have a good chin at all.



Lyle - the only time Frazier could really have matched Lyle was in a high-risk low-reward fight post-Ali II, pre Ali III. He decided to match TOP CONTENDERS on his comeback trail, but should be forgiven for taking men he knew he had previously met - the best measure of a fighters relative ability. He then fought Ali, he then fought maybe the biggest HW puncher in history for a SECOND time, then he packed it in. No window for Lyle, really.

Only time? Why re-match a shopworn Ellis? Why fight a soft hearted and defensive Bugner?

Liston - ??????? Liston beat ONE ranked contender post Ali and was the most widely avoided fighter, probably since Burley/Williams/Booker, possibly more so. You want Frazier to fight Liston? Based upon what?

Liston vs. Frazier would have been a good match. Frazier own people admit they did not think he would win.

Norton - the men were friends. The fight may have happened were Frazier a long reigning champion.

Frazier, had two crappy title fights after he beat Ali. And he did not look good in the second one at all. Why not fight Norton then??

Shavers - at the time of Frazier's retirement, Shavers hadn't even fought over the title distance. Of course the two never met. Are you just picking names out of a hat?

Shavers, like Frazier is liked with Norton, Ali, Ellis, and others. I do not think Frazier wanted this fight. Like I said, outside of Foreman, his managmeent conveniently scheduled him to face non punchers.

Foreman - huge puncher, met by Frazier twice.

Yes, and floored him how many times? See how easy a puncher got to Frazier? Also Frazier defense was nothing here.

I suspect that you're just repeating "Frazier avoided punchers" because you read it on the forum. A closer look reveals the truth, as is often the case.

A look at his resume show outside of Foreman shows I am correct.



Any fight between 68 and 71. I think YOU confuse getting hit withhaving a bad defence. A short, swarming fighter is going to get hit and going to get hurt Mendoza.


It depends on the fighter. Tyson at his best had a top defense, and did not get hit much. Paqciao is short and a swarming fighter, he does not get hit much either. Of Course these two were two handed punchers, and had more variety than Frazier did. As for the dates, Bonevena had no trouble landing. Neither did Mathis. The Ramos fight only lasted two rounds, but Ramos who landed hardly anything shook Frazier up a bit. I do not see good defense in these dates. What I do see if Frazier imposing his will on weaker puncher or less skilled guys.

Probably FOTC I is your best bet where we see Frazier repeatedly slip one of the best jab in history, including with his hands down by his sides for kicks. You can also see him out-jab the taller, rangier Foster based mainly upon defence in the first round of their fight.

Ali might have misses some but I think it was due to fatigue, and Frazier being the better conditioned of the two. When Ali had stamina, at times he made Frazier's head look like a bobble head doll. The Foster fight was over in less than one round. While I think it was Frazier most impressive performance ( Not to be confused with most impressive victory ), it was over too quick to use this fight as a judge of defense.

[ramalinga]

3 - 1 for me. Foremans uppercuts were what destroyed Frazier so maybe a prime Bowe is the worst match up for him. But Wlads and Lewis's suspect whiskers and Vitali's lack of offensive variation see those three losing i believe.

Both Klitschkos are absolute masters at controling range and Frazier would be the shortest opponent for either brother. Lennox took hard shots from Mercer, Briggs, Vitali, his chin was not immortal but certainly not bad. Wlad beat the count after every KD in his career, so it's not like one punch knocks him out.

Frazier was great but hittable. A very sloppy Foreman could hit him at will, the far more accurate and harder to hit superheavies like Lennox or the Klitschkos would beat him.

[McGrain]

Most of Ali clinching is on the ropes, and like i said his technique was illegal with the numerous grabbing behind the heads. Check the films. Did Ali clinch much in the center of the ring? Not much. Wlad can excuse a clinch faster and better legally, on the ropes or in the center of the ring where it is harder to clinch. Also, Wlad hardly clinched Chagaev at all.

Ali chinches more than Wlad. Ali has controlled better fighters than Wlad with the clinch. I see no room for calling Wlad the better clincher, at all.



Frazier would not have to respect Young power. As I said twice before, when you in with a puncher you have to respect his power. The reckless abandon that Frazier used vs weaker punching boxers would be replaced by a more measured approach vs a puncher. There's your differnce. If you say you have boxed before, then you should graps this concept.


Show me:

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This is the only big puncher Frazier fought...and Wlad, Bowe, and Lewis are also big punchers. Those who know boxing will tell you Wlad, Bowe, and Lewis hit very hard, and had more skill, speed, and accuracy than Foreman did. Plus a heck of a lot more stamina. How is Frazier going to take their punches? The elementary deduction is he won't take them for long.

The problem with making "elementary deductions" in the face of vast complexities is they are often wrong. Frazier is literally the perfect foil for Foreman; Cus D'Amato labelled him "unbeatable" against swarmers. That does not mean that Frazier cannot beat any puncher, and it does not mean that any puncher is invincible against swarmers.

You've been keen to look exclusively at the difficulties of the match up for Frazier. Let's look at the difficulties for another protagonist, Wlad.

He's never been in the ring with a fighter of Frazier's class.

He's never been in the ring with a fighter who can sustain pressure like Frazier.

To beat Wlad at his best(and arguably Vitalli) you need to take away his control of tempo/and or range. Here is a fighter that is built to do specifically those things throughout any given fight.

Furthermore, a mere solid hitter in Bonevena proved its not only the big punchers that could hurt Frazier

You're going to say this over and over again, I can see; i'm going to leave it alone after this. My final word is to repeat, again, that all fighters can be hurt and that aggressive swarmers are the easist fighters of all to hurt. You're prepared to write off Joe's chin based upon who "hurt" him rather than on the two out and out KO's he's suffered. I find that odd. I think the increasing desire of posters on the board to point to any examples of a fighter being hurt as evidence to be hurled against that fighter's chin as increasingly bizarre. Throughout this discussion with me you've been keen to stress that I need boxing experience to hav this discussion with you, but you can't seem to grasp the basic concepts of ring action.



Only time? Why re-match a shopworn Ellis? Why fight a soft hearted and defensive Bugner?

Lyle was absolutley nowhere at the time Frazier matched Bugner. Why would he fight a guy who had fought 12 rounds only once, losing? What possibly reasoning has Frazier matching Lyle at this time?





Liston vs. Frazier would have been a good match. Frazier own people admit they did not think he would win.


Source?

And whilst I agree that it would have been a good fight, I have the same question again; why on earth would Frazier fight Liston when Liston had beaten one ranked contender in 5 years?



Frazier, had two crappy title fights after he beat Ali. And he did not look good in the second one at all. Why not fight Norton then??

I don't think he looked particularly good between Ali I and Manilla. Frazier could have matched any number of fighters instead of Daniels and Stander; they were shitty title defences. He then matched the greatest HW in history for the second time. As to Norton, again, you're repeating yourself, i'll repeat myself. The two men were friends. Perhaps they would have been matched had Frazier reigned for longer.



Shavers, like Frazier is liked with Norton, Ali, Ellis, and others.

So? How does this in any way answer my question? Why are you insisting upon accusing Frazier of ducking Shavers "conviniently" given their career paths? All these guys - the same question.


A look at his resume show outside of Foreman shows I am correct.

"Outside of Foreman"? Why sould it be "oustisde of Formena" though? How is that in any way justifiable? Did you know that, outside of Ali, Frazier fought none of the three greatest HW's in history?




It depends on the fighter. Tyson at his best had a top defense, and did not get hit much. Paqciao is short and a swarming fighter, he does not get hit much either. Of Course these two were two handed punchers, and had more variety than Frazier did. As for the dates, Bonevena had no trouble landing. Neither did Mathis. The Ramos fight only lasted two rounds, but Ramos who landed hardly anything shook Frazier up a bit. I do not see good defense in these dates. What I do see if Frazier imposing his will on weaker puncher or less skilled guys.

I'm going to get to a proper skills breakdown later, but I don't have time right now. What I want to say right now is this - you have Frazier painted as a fighter with a poor defence and a bad chin.

Who was stopped only thrice against ATG's.

Have a think about it.



Ali might have misses some but I think it was due to fatigue.

:roll:

Yeah. About what i'd expect. Impossible for you to provide credit for even the things he is filmed doing.

[Bokaj]

Ali was superior to Lewis as an in-fighter??? You do not know what you are talking about, and no serious boxing historian or analysts would agree with you. But hey, laugh on...

When did Lewis ever show the kind of in-fighting that Ali showed in Manilla?

[he grant]

Lewis had the best shot of beating Joe on size however Ray Mercer was not much taller, just thicker, and gave Lewis hell. Mercer could not hit or fight like Joe but had that chin ...

Vitali lacks the punch to keep Joe off and Wlad has no chin. Joe beats both. Too many here are forgetting Joe's own excellent speed, the fact that he was harder to hit than advertised and his exceptional stamina and workrate. In addition,both Klits are bleeders ... over 15 Joe would prove too much.

Joe would wear Bowe out by the middle rounds ...

[round15]

Both Klitschkos are absolute masters at controling range and Frazier would be the shortest opponent for either brother. Lennox took hard shots from Mercer, Briggs, Vitali, his chin was not immortal but certainly not bad. Wlad beat the count after every KD in his career, so it's not like one punch knocks him out.

Frazier was great but hittable. A very sloppy Foreman could hit him at will, the far more accurate and harder to hit superheavies like Lennox or the Klitschkos would beat him.

The slow jabbing Klitschko's are absolute masters at controlling range?
Uhh, no.

I think people tend to overuse the Joe Frazier that got destroyed by Foreman as the basis for arguing that he gets easily beaten by other big punchers.

If either Vitaly or Wlad faced the conditioned Frazier of 1967 - 1970, I'd wouldn't bet on either man making it past 10 rounds against that version of Joe. Prime Frazier would have too much head movement and pressure for the Klitschko's to handle. More evident is the the easier access to the body shots that they'd absorb as bigger punching targets for Frazier.
Lewis probably makes it to the championship rounds before getting stopped. Same with Bowe.

[PetethePrince]

Your surity astounds me given Ali's greater success agaisnt top line opponents and his experience controlling these superior men inside. Wlad as a clincher is in no way more advanced than Ali. Both are rudamentary, Ali has shown himself able to control one of the greatest in-fighters ever in boxing with his rudementary skill, Wlad has controlled the likes of Chagaev in this way. I can't see where the leeway is to label Klitschko "better" at all.





Ali was always in top shape for Frazier, whom he regarded as the #2 HW in history by the end of their series. He did take breaks against other fighters for this reason, but not against Frazier in I and not against Frazier in II. He's on the ropes because he's trapped there. Of course, this doesn't mean that Frazier can force all opponents to the ropes. It's a matter of styles. But it's certainly not a matter of smarts, as you've implied.



I've boxed, i've talked to fighters, unless you mean proffessional champions?

Regardless of this total irrelevance, in what ways do you think Frazier will box Wlad differently than he boxed Young? How will this respect manifest itself?






Frazier was HW champion of the world. He fought 37 fights and was stopped 3 times, once in one of the most herioc filmed efforts in boxing history, twice by one of the most feared punchers in history. These statistics here are far, far more important than someone who once "buckled his knees" or what happened to him as an amature. Frazier is vulnerable to aggressive massive punchers - that's proven. Trying to line him up for a KO versus EVERY puncher he faces because of that is nonsense, not to say lazy. Frazier showed astonishing resiliance in Foreman I. The type of resiliance that NONE of these four are able to claim and that Lewis and Wlad cannot dream of approaching.

Lyle - the only time Frazier could really have matched Lyle was in a high-risk low-reward fight post-Ali II, pre Ali III. He decided to match TOP CONTENDERS on his comeback trail, but should be forgiven for taking men he knew he had previously met - the best measure of a fighters relative ability. He then fought Ali, he then fought maybe the biggest HW puncher in history for a SECOND time, then he packed it in. No window for Lyle, really.

Liston - ??????? Liston beat ONE ranked contender post Ali and was the most widely avoided fighter, probably since Burley/Williams/Booker, possibly more so. You want Frazier to fight Liston? Based upon what?

Norton - the men were friends. The fight may have happened were Frazier a long reigning champion.

Shavers - at the time of Frazier's retirement, Shavers hadn't even fought over the title distance. Of course the two never met. Are you just picking names out of a hat?

Foreman - huge puncher, met by Frazier twice.

I suspect that you're just repeating "Frazier avoided punchers" because you read it on the forum. A closer look reveals the truth, as is often the case.





Any fight between 68 and 71. I think YOU confuse getting hit with having a bad defence. A short, swarming fighter is going to get hit and going to get hurt Mendoza. It was true of Demspey, Tyson, Patterson. All have excellent defence. I think that Frazier had a better defence than Patterson although a worse defence than Demspey. Probably something equivilant to Tyson's. All were excellent. It is, of course, possible to list the men who buckled their knees, knocked them out, hurt them, put them down. Trying to draw, from that, the conclusion that they are chinless or have a bad defence is just bizarre.

Probably FOTC I is your best bet where we see Frazier repeatedly slip one of the best jab in history, including with his hands down by his sides for kicks. You can also see him out-jab the taller, rangier Foster based mainly upon defence in the first round of their fight.

:happy

The extreme position Mendoza takes, especially in regards to Frazier's post title comp is not only silly but clearly for his own bias. He fought Foreman twice... so much for really avoiding big punchers.

[PetethePrince]

when did lewis ever show the kind of in-fighting that ali showed in manilla?

Thank You!

[Jaws]

The Frazier haters are getting their asses handed to them in this thread.

[PetethePrince]

The Frazier haters are getting their asses handed to them in this thread.

:good

[RobMan]

I'm sorry for bringing this to a different point but what about Ali, generally the no. 1 rated heavyweight of all time.

Its one of the great debates. Ali never fought someone like the Klitscho's or Lewis. Its tough to know what would happen. Have to favour Ali cause he lasted and won with Foreman who inarguably hits harder overall than the brothers. Though what about Lewis? He's bigger and stronger than anyone Ali ever faced. Its a great intangible really.

For arguements sake what if Lewis is the biggest hitter Ali ever faced and he's hurt by Lewis' punches?? What happens then??

P.S. not suggesting Ali would lose. Just curious

[janitor]

[quote=Seamus;5681633]If Frazier was so damned hard to hit why was his head the size of a pumpkin after every time he fought a decent fighter?

In part because he was prepared to fight opponents who werre a risk.

He made his mark on b-level small heavyweights and a great, small heavyweight who was on the comeback trail. That is it. He gets obliterated by modern-sized heavies as was proven by the skillfully challenged though strong Foreman.

It is up to the modern-sized heavies to prove themselves.

[dezbeast]

RobMan, now those are more fair stylistic matchups. I think Ali goes 3-1 against those 4, losing only to Wlad.

[Seamus]

[QUOTE]

In part because he was prefared to fight opponents who werre a risk.



It is up to the modern-sized heavies to prove themselves.


Re-examine these comments when you are not drunk and see if they still make sense.

[Farmboxer]

Frazier was made to order for Vitali or Vlad.

[Buddy87]

unless Vitali learned the super uppercut George Foreman knew..I would say that the Klitschko's chances of beating either of these two or Lennox would look dim. I say this because all three of them with there european upright style gives them a slow foot pace, Ali stood up straight like a european and had a bounce with it as well as lateral movement when it was needed ( lewis had lateral movement to, Klitschko's not so much mos likely cause they never needed to use forward lateral movement to dip down )

[PetethePrince]

Honestly, I feel Frazier's a mess for the Klits upward, mechnical, especially telegraphic (Well when regarding Vitali) European style. He just swarms them with a pace/pressure they can't deal with. Vitali isn't going to KO nor be able to finish nor outpoint Frazier for 15 rounds once he starts getting on the inside. Vitali doesn't have the arsenal, speed, nor defense to avoid getting pummeled by Frazier. Wlad's explosive offensive is his only bet. Most likely, though, he just gets KTFO by a left hook from hell. Vitali is going to find an awfully tough time hitting Joe. Wlad will find his mark, but his chin/stamina, and panic episodes trouble him. The mentally stronger but inferior brother will get exposed/beaten due to other viable reasons.

Lewis has the best chance and is much more proven over superior comp and a more consistent comp. He has the attributes, and smart safe style to beat him. Joe could crack him though, if McCall and Rahman did Joe can hurt Lennox.

Bowe is being undersold the most in these matchups. Honestly, for some reason I feel comfortable enough giving him a very very good chance. For the others, there is a clouding discern and suspicion. Frankly, they all had their spills but Bowe at his best was a terrific fighter. His durability, and toughness and offensive skills are important in this style fight. Vitali doesn't fit the mold to have a scuffle on the inside - he may have the durability but doesn't posses Bowe's skills. He won't show the dog in the fight... he will lose.

[Mendoza]

:happy

The extreme position Mendoza takes, especially in regards to Frazier's post title comp is not only silly but clearly for his own bias. He fought Foreman twice... so much for really avoiding big punchers.

Keep high fiving each other. Those who watch the films know Frazier was essentially a great one armed fighter, small, physically weak in terms of brute strength, swelled easy, and had a suspect chin vs punchers. If your rolling eyes at the physically weak comment, Futch said Frazier had the worst body of any heavyweight champion, meaning it as a true complement to what Frazier could accomplish. In a sports network event, Frazier was horrible. He didn't even make the cut in the strength competition, and was out lifted by cyclists types.

Frazier is 1-4 vs Foreman and Ali with 3 KO losses. Sorry-- I think a lot of fighters can equal this mark. And the 1 win was over a rusty Ali, who had not learned how to clich.

Regradless of how you spin it, Frazier resume outside of Foreman who bounced him around the ring like a basketball is void of big punchers, so we must look at the mere solid hitters he face, and we see in fact these types also had him down, stunned, him, or buckled his knees too.

Many think Norton had a suspect chin vs. Punhers. I'm a Norton fan. Yes--he did. Now can Frazier fans be honest? Ali's punchers hurt Frazier much worse than Norton.

I listed several good punchers in Foster, Liston, Norton, Lyle, R. Williams, and Shavers...is it a fluke Frazier never fought, them but gave title shots to fringe contender types, and seeked out smaller men or softer punchers? Hmmm.......

Since Frazier was essentially a grind it out type of fighter, had issues with punchers, and won't win any boxing matches vs skilled super heavies, he's going to need to land the bomb early. The Klitschko's, Leiws and Bowe have over 150 fights betwen them, and just one razor thin decsion loss! With his 73" reach diminished by having to reach way up there to score, and the intelligent super heavies knowing full well how easy Frazier was to lock down if the got in trouble and had to get pas their jab and right hand to socre, I think he's going to lose more often than not.

Furthermore, Frazier title opponents were horrible, far worse than today, and he declined the WBA tournament, opting to fight for the NY state championship instead.

So Pete, if you want to argue any of the above facts or observations, go for it. The truth is on my side.

[Boxed Ears]

Keep high fiving each other. Those who watch the films know Frazier was essentially a great one armed fighter, small, physically weak in terms of brute strength, swelled easy, and had a suspect chin vs punchers. If your rolling eyes at the physically weak comment, Futch said Frazier had the worst body of any heavyweight champion, meaning it as a true complement to what Frazier could accomplish. In a sports network event, Frazier was horrible. He didn't even make the cut in the strength competition, and was out lifted by cyclists types.

Frazier is 1-4 vs Foreman and Ali with 3 KO losses. Sorry-- I think a lot of fighters can equal this mark. And the 1 win was over a rusty Ali, who had not learned how to clich.

Regradless of how you spin it, Frazier resume outside of Foreman who bounced him around the ring like a basketball is void of big punchers, so we must look at the mere solid hitters he face, and we see in fact these types also had him down, stunned, him, or buckled his knees too.

Many think Norton had a suspect chin vs. Punhers. I'm a Norton fan. Yes--he did. Now can Frazier fans be honest? Ali's punchers hurt Frazier much worse than Norton.

I listed several good punchers in Foster, Liston, Norton, Lyle, R. Williams, and Shavers...is it a fluke Frazier never fought, them but gave title shots to fringe contender types, and seeked out smaller men or softer punchers? Hmmm.......

Since Frazier was essentially a grind it out type of fighter, had issues with punchers, and won't win any boxing matches vs skilled super heavies, he's going to need to land the bomb early. The Klitschko's, Leiws and Bowe have over 150 fights betwen them, and just one razor thin decsion loss! With his 73" reach diminished by having to reach way up there to score, and the intelligent super heavies knowing full well how easy Frazier was to lock down if the got in trouble and had to get pas their jab and right hand to socre, I think he's going to lose more often than not.

Furthermore, Frazier title opponents were horrible, far worse than today, and he declined the WBA tournament, opting to fight for the NY state championship instead.

So Pete, if you want to argue any of the above facts or observations, go for it. The truth is on my side.

Frazier fought Foster, was friend with Norton-they didn't want to fight each other, and who was Liston in Frazier's prime years?

[OBCboxer]

Frazier was made to order for Vitali or Vlad.

Actually it is quite the opposite. You know who Frazier was made to order for? George Foreman. Are the Klits anything like Foreman? No.

[OBCboxer]

Keep high fiving each other. Those who watch the films know Frazier was essentially a great one armed fighter, small, physically weak in terms of brute strength, swelled easy, and had a suspect chin vs punchers. If your rolling eyes at the physically weak comment, Futch said Frazier had the worst body of any heavyweight champion, meaning it as a true complement to what Frazier could accomplish. In a sports network event, Frazier was horrible. He didn't even make the cut in the strength competition, and was out lifted by cyclists types.

Where do strength comeptitions have to do with Boxing? Just because he wasn't physically appealing in the physique department doesn't mean he isn't great. Besides, he looks like a greek god compared to most Heavyweights today.

Frazier is 1-4 vs Foreman and Ali with 3 KO losses. Sorry-- I think a lot of fighters can equal this mark. And the 1 win was over a rusty Ali, who had not learned how to clich.

Sorry his style was made for Foreman and that Geroge was arguably the hardest puncher ever. For what it's worth, the Klits would be 0-5 against Foreman and Ali.

Regradless of how you spin it, Frazier resume outside of Foreman who bounced him around the ring like a basketball is void of big punchers, so we must look at the mere solid hitters he face, and we see in fact these types also had him down, stunned, him, or buckled his knees too.

Enlighten me... on this subject. I'd love to hear it.

Many think Norton had a suspect chin vs. Punhers. I'm a Norton fan. Yes--he did. Now can Frazier fans be honest? Ali's punchers hurt Frazier much worse than Norton.

Look at the type of fight Frazier and Norton. Frazier was in wars with Ali. Norton fought three boring fights with Ali.

I listed several good punchers in Foster, Liston, Norton, Lyle, R. Williams, and Shavers...is it a fluke Frazier never fought, them but gave title shots to fringe contender types, and seeked out smaller men or softer punchers? Hmmm.......

He fought Foster, Liston was old and lost to Leotis Martin. Norton and Frazier were friends and had the same manager. Where was Lyle at the time? Shavers was KO'd in one round against Quarry.

Since Frazier was essentially a grind it out type of fighter, had issues with punchers, and won't win any boxing matches vs skilled super heavies, he's going to need to land the bomb early. The Klitschko's, Leiws and Bowe have over 150 fights betwen them, and just one razor thin decsion loss! With his 73" reach diminished by having to reach way up there to score, and the intelligent super heavies knowing full well how easy Frazier was to lock down if the got in trouble and had to get pas their jab and right hand to socre, I think he's going to lose more often than not.

The Klits are made for Frazier. I would pick Lewis over Frazier and Bowe is too easily hit to beat Frazier.

Furthermore, Frazier title opponents were horrible, far worse than today, and he declined the WBA tournament, opting to fight for the NY state championship instead.

No they aren't. Vitali's resume is terrible. Who did he beat? Wlad's is decent but nothing to write home about. You can't just take Ali and Foreman away from Frazier like that.

[McGrain]

I listed several good punchers in Foster, Liston, Norton, Lyle, R. Williams, and Shavers...is it a fluke Frazier never fought, them but gave title shots to fringe contender types, and seeked out smaller men or softer punchers? Hmmm.......


He fought Foster.

As for Shavers, Lyle and Liston you've been offered direct explanationa and challanges to your position by myself and no answer is forthcoming.

Maybe a little less about other men and their ducking? Hmmmm.

[McGrain]

Furthermore, Frazier title opponents were horrible, far worse than today.


That's embarrassing

. Frazier's resume includes ATG top 1 HW Ali x2, Foreman x1 not to mention guys like Foster (p4p top 10 moving up one weight division) plus guys like Bonovena, Ellis and Quarry. And you want to try to say that that compares negatively with the champions of "today"? Wlad, whose best opponent may be a past-prime Chagaev and Vitali?

:-(

[McGrain]

Keep high fiving each other. Those who watch the films know Frazier was essentially a great one armed fighter, small, physically weak in terms of brute strength, swelled easy, and had a suspect chin vs punchers. If your rolling eyes at the physically weak comment, Futch said Frazier had the worst body of any heavyweight champion, meaning it as a true complement to what Frazier could accomplish. In a sports network event, Frazier was horrible. He didn't even make the cut in the strength competition, and was out lifted by cyclists types.


"Worst body of any heavyweight champion"?? So? So what? He also said he was "prenaturally strong" and "hard, if you walked into him it hurt you". Who gives a shit about his body? Who gives a shit about what he lifted out of training on a "sports network event"? How about the fact that he was seen to manhandle Muhammad Ali who was phenomenally strong? How about functional strength born of balance demonstrated in the ring? How about his hauling Ali off the ropes with his gloved hands and tossing him into a position he prefers to have him in?

Sports network events?

The appearance of his less-than-Klitschko-hot body?

Who gives a shit? These are the "facts on your side"?

[Jaws]

Furthermore, Frazier title opponents were horrible, far worse than today

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

WOW!

It's after points like this that you realize a discussion is over.

[Doppleganger]

2-2.

Frazier beats both Klits but loses to Bowe and Lewis.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor;5688550]


Re-examine these comments when you are not drunk and see if they still make sense.

O.K in the cold light of sobriety:

Joe Frazier was matched verry hard from verry early in his career, and lets face it, your, durability and deffense fall away verry rapidly when you start to fight opponents ranked in the top ten. It is in this thin somtimes thin slice of a fighters career that chins get checked. Add to this the fact that offensive fighters inherantly have to take punches to pursue a fight and it should come as no surprize that Frazier took a few.

Proving yourself cuts both ways. Ther can be issues with the quality of the oponents that you prove yourself against as well as theiras their size. all of the superheavyweights listed except Lewis have some issues in this respect.

[CF Gauss]

Just because these guys were big and strong like Foreman doesn't mean they would KO Frazier.


Foreman was reckless and happy to get into a brawl. Lewis, and the Klits were very cautious.

I think Frazier beats Vitali and Wlad. He has about a 50/50 shot against Lewis and Bowe, IMO.

Bowe could fight inside, and he had more stamina than many are giving him credit for (see Bowe-Holyfield I).

[itrymariti]

Smoking' Joe did not have a good chin at all.


This is almost signature-worthy.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Mendoza [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Furthermore, Frazier title opponents were horrible, far worse than today.

That's embarrassing

. Frazier's resume includes ATG top 1 HW Ali x2, Foreman x1 not to mention guys like Foster (p4p top 10 moving up one weight division) plus guys like Bonovena, Ellis and Quarry. And you want to try to say that that compares negatively with the champions of "today"? Wlad, whose best opponent may be a past-prime Chagaev and Vitali?

:-(


Title opponents, as in when Frazier was the champion.

After beating Ali, Frazier fought a 28-4-1 Terry Daniles who never beat anyone top rated prior to getting the title shot and lost 2 of his last 5 bouts coming into the match:lol::lol::lol:. Daniels career was awful, as he ended up 35-30-1:patsch What's worse is Frazier did not look good vs. Daniels. Did you ever see the fight?


Then after Daniels, Frazier next title opponent was Ron Stander. Stander was 23-1-1, not too far removed from a loss to a 7-11-1 fighter. E[Only registered and activated users can see links] Still the game but over matched Stander manged to buckle Frazier knees.:patsch Stander would end his career at 37-21-3/


These title defenses were a joke. Kevin Johnson, Arreola, or Gomez were far better.

[Mendoza]

He fought Foster.

As for Shavers, Lyle and Liston you've been offered direct explanationa and challanges to your position by myself and no answer is forthcoming.

Maybe a little less about other men and their ducking? Hmmmm.

Mac Foster, not Bob. Mac was a heavyweight puncher. And no, Frazier did not fight him.

[Mendoza]

This is almost signature-worthy.

Let's see, Frazier was down 11 times in 37 fights. Would you call that a good heavyweight chin?

By contrast, Vitali was down 0 times, Lewis was down 2 times.

[PetethePrince]

Keep high fiving each other. Those who watch the films know Frazier was essentially a great one armed fighter, small, physically weak in terms of brute strength, swelled easy, and had a suspect chin vs punchers.

Honestly, should stop reading here. Big Frazier fan. Get no where suggesting any opposite opinion to yours is wrong or uninformed because the film simply says this and nothing else. Honestly, your assessment is Lewis is a better inside fighter than Ali. I think Ali proved more on the inside and so does Bojak. And Wlad's a superior clincher than Ali, really?

If your rolling eyes at the physically weak comment, Futch said Frazier had the worst body of any heavyweight champion, meaning it as a true complement to what Frazier could accomplish.Body and muscles don't neccessarily mean great physical strength. If you were into weightlifting, bodybuilding, etc you would know that this is an ignorant correlation, and to assume this is what Futch is saying is irresponsible. Important to note that Futch got the hypertension Frazier that weighed 210+ in most of his context. His lowest weight was 208 versus Bugner. If Futch got the 60's Frazier I doubt he would say that.

In a sports network event, Frazier was horrible. He didn't even make the cut in the strength competition, and was out lifted by cyclists types.Can you please elaborate, I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to.

Frazier is 1-4 vs Foreman and Ali with 3 KO losses. Sorry-- I think a lot of fighters can equal this mark. And the 1 win was over a rusty Ali, who had not learned how to clich.Ali always knew how to clinch - us viewers just didn't see him implement this more until even later in his career when he needed to. What showed Ali didn't know how to clinch? Because he played on the ropes? Ali admitted this was silly. Frazier was really done at 225 pounds against Foreman in 76. He came up with a new strategy and lasted longer, but does this fight tells us anything really? He would've finished on his feet in Manilla if it was up to him (With perhaps dire consequences though). Comparing his chin to Wlad, which you did earlier is unbelievable laughable. Brewster commened on how he was surprised when he tapped Wlad's chin and he just wobbled. Wlad has been dropped, downed, hurt more often against lesser opponents, too. Foreman would have him down for 10 count, something he couldn't do to Frazier.

Regradless of how you spin it, Frazier resume outside of Foreman who bounced him around the ring like a basketball is void of big punchers, so we must look at the mere solid hitters he face, and we see in fact these types also had him down, stunned, him, or buckled his knees too.But you take the extreme. Bonavena had power, he just was a tad wild and not the most accurate puncher. You act like he fought creampuffs and feather-fisted opponents. Is that really the case when you're outweighed by 50 pounds against Mathis or fighter near super-heavyweights in Bugner. Then there's the GOAT in Ali, and the fact he sparred with Norton and was quite effective against a solid puncher like Norton.

Many think Norton had a suspect chin vs. Punhers. I'm a Norton fan. Yes--he did. Now can Frazier fans be honest? Ali's punchers hurt Frazier much worse than Norton. More data to analyze. Shavers, Cooney, Foreman. And the way he got blasted out. Frazier a little ill prepared and past his best gets blasted. Then a shot one gets beat by Foreman in 76. Before that, we saw he could take a great accumulation of shots. Didn't have the best ability to take a big power puncher, but he had only been down twice previous to Foreman, and never knocked out. Did you see some of the shots he took from Ali? Yes, Ali could hit more than we would like to think. His speed, and accuracy. He stopped Bonavena basically with one big left hook, a rare feat.

I listed several good punchers in Foster, Liston, Norton, Lyle, R. Williams, and Shavers...is it a fluke Frazier never fought, them but gave title shots to fringe contender types, and seeked out smaller men or softer punchers? Hmmm.......Nobody fought Liston. And why take that chance. That's just stupid match-making. The rest of those fighters come from the tail end of Frazier's career, where he just tried getting his shot at Ali which he did by rematching Ellis and Quarry. It's not like he fought them and avoided better, higher ranked fighters.

Since Frazier was essentially a grind it out type of fighter, had issues with punchers, and won't win any boxing matches vs skilled super heavies, he's going to need to land the bomb early. The Klitschko's, Leiws and Bowe have over 150 fights betwen them, and just one razor thin decsion loss! With his 73" reach diminished by having to reach way up there to score, and the intelligent super heavies knowing full well how easy Frazier was to lock down if the got in trouble and had to get pas their jab and right hand to socre, I think he's going to lose more often than not.You do realize that Frazier's bob & weave was perfectly designed for the jab and straight. A fast jabber like Ali missed frequently in FOTC due to Frazier's movement. Imagine the slow ponderous super heavies like Vitali trying to jab at that. He's hitting air. Combine that with the fact that Klits turn around and run away from guys like Arreola - just imagine what Frazier would make Vitali do. Humorous just imagining. I predict 3 turn around and run away per round he lasts by Vitali. Wlad just panicks and gets KTFO. Picking Wlad who lost and gets knocked down and KOed by some less than stellar figthers and non monstrous punchers. And the panick attacks he has... it's just mystifying that anyone picks him against Frazier.

Furthermore, Frazier title opponents were horrible, far worse than today, and he declined the WBA tournament, opting to fight for the NY state championship instead.You know why, don't you?

So Pete, if you want to argue any of the above facts or observations, go for it. The truth is on my side.:lol:

Wlad better clincher than Ali.

Lewis more proven in-fighter than Ali.

Frazier chin about as bad as Wlad's.

Okay :good

[Seamus]

These title defenses were a joke. Kevin Johnson, Arreola, or Gomez were far better.

Agreed.

And don't forget such luminaries as Ramos and Zyglwicz when he held the New York title.

[janitor]

Let's see, Frazier was down 11 times in 37 fights. Would you call that a good heavyweight chin?


I am not a big fan of grading a fighters chin by how many times he was down.

If Lewis had got up several times against Ramhan and McCall and won, would we then dowengrade his chin?

[PetethePrince]

Mac Foster, not Bob. Mac was a heavyweight puncher. And no, Frazier did not fight him.

Mac lost to guys Joe beat. Honestly, he isn't even worth mentioning as a duck job. He didn't beat anyone of real note except an old Folley.

[Seamus]

Can you please elaborate, I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to.



It was on a Superstars competition around the time of Foreman I. Joe didn't display much "athleticism" in the event. He was slow, weak and uncoordinated. In particular he could not military press what appeared to be about 90 pounds. But that's why we judge boxing ability in the ring, not on the b-ball court or football field like Bert Sugar.

[PetethePrince]

It was on a Superstars competition around the time of Foreman I. Joe didn't display much "athleticism" in the event. He was slow, weak and uncoordinated. In particular he could not military press what appeared to be about 90 pounds. But that's why we judge boxing ability in the ring, not on the b-ball court or football field like Bert Sugar.

Does anybody have a video of this. Is this related to Joe Frazier swimming with the Olympians, and just looking embarrassingly awful. I think it was shown on John Stewart's show a few years back. It was awfully funny. Does anyone have a copy of this or a youtube link to refer me to. Would be interested in seeing this.

Joe did a lot of labor work when he was younger so he had physical strength. I suppose albeit not natural strength.

[janitor]

Mac Foster, not Bob. Mac was a heavyweight puncher. And no, Frazier did not fight him.

I know that you are getting it from all sides here for your position, and I don't want to be ganging up on you.

I respect you as a poster.

What I will say is that you somtimes make a mess of the timelines when acusing one fighter of ducking another e.g. Jack Johnson. You tend to say "fighter A was active during fighter B's prime so why did they not meet?".

[itrymariti]

Let's see, Frazier was down 11 times in 37 fights. Would you call that a good heavyweight chin?

By contrast, Vitali was down 0 times, Lewis was down 2 times.

8 of those were against Foreman, and 2 when he was caught cold against Bonavena. And consider this: Frazier got up immediately after all of those knockdowns, having taken flush shots from one of the bulkiest punchers ever. Yet, some of those uppercuts virtually lifted Joe up in the air! If that doesn't demonstrate quality punch resistance, I don't know what does.

People get knocked down in boxing. Foreman was virtually finished on numerous occasions - even by a non-puncher in Holyfield. Ali was laid out by a virtual Light Heavyweight in Cooper. Glass jaws there as well?

Vitali hasn't been KD'd 11 times. But, then, that's not surprising considering he's been fighting the likes of Kevin "ten punches a round" Johnson - hardly a test for the beard. (The only sizeable Heavy Vitali has faced was Lewis, and Lewis collapsed his face with a glancing right hand.) Ask yourself this: would either of the Klitschkos finished on their feet against Foreman? Are we sure they'd necessarily even beat guys like Quarry and Bonavena?

[latineg]

i think lennox batterz him, vitali prime is too big 4 frazier, same with vlad, riddick might be stupid enought to lose to frazier but i wouldnt be surprised if he won also

yes frazier waz great

no it dont change my pickz

[McGrain]

These title defenses were a joke. Kevin Johnson, Arreola, or Gomez were far better.

What's absolutley astonishing about this post is you seem happy to leave aside the fact that Frazier met Ali and Foreman as champion. You seem quite happy to focus upon the worst fighters that Frazier met and compare them favourably to the fighters Frazier met...what about the best fighters he met? Yes, Gomez is better than Daniels. But hardly better than Ali. Or the other top men Frazier met.

[McGrain]

I know that you are getting it from all sides here for your position, and I don't want to be ganging up on you.


When a poster "gets it" on this forum, he generally deserves it.

[Fighting Weight]

Let's see, Frazier was down 11 times in 37 fights. Would you call that a good heavyweight chin?

By contrast, Vitali was down 0 times, Lewis was down 2 times.

Vitali has been down once, when he got clocked by a fat golfer - same thing happened to his lover/brother in case you missed it.

He's fought a collection of bums and lost the only 2 meaningful fights he's been involved in, that's the facts. Of course you'll come back with spin about rounds won, KO percentages, how tall he is etc but the cold hard truth is he's fought 2 good fighters and lost both times - and that's how he'll be remembered. Comparisons with Joe Frazier are ridiculous because Frazier fought the greatest HW that ever lived, and beat him.

[Fighting Weight]

Originally Posted by Mendoza [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Furthermore, Frazier title opponents were horrible, far worse than today.




Title opponents, as in when Frazier was the champion.

After beating Ali, Frazier fought a 28-4-1 Terry Daniles who never beat anyone top rated prior to getting the title shot and lost 2 of his last 5 bouts coming into the match:lol::lol::lol:. Daniels career was awful, as he ended up 35-30-1:patsch What's worse is Frazier did not look good vs. Daniels. Did you ever see the fight?


Then after Daniels, Frazier next title opponent was Ron Stander. Stander was 23-1-1, not too far removed from a loss to a 7-11-1 fighter. E[Only registered and activated users can see links] Still the game but over matched Stander manged to buckle Frazier knees.:patsch Stander would end his career at 37-21-3/


These title defenses were a joke. Kevin Johnson, Arreola, or Gomez were far better.

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

I notice you pick up on Fraziers bad defences and ignore the fact that he defended against 2 all time top 5 heavies in between those fights. Now lets compare fat-ass Danny Williams to those guys Frazier defended against......doesn't look so bad now does it?

You really do talk utter bollocks at times my friend, and your pathetic Klit love knows no bounds, obviously.

[Seamus]

When a poster "gets it" on this forum, he generally deserves it.

What absolute anti-intellectual bullshit. There is a prevailing orthodoxy present here which entirely over-praises certain eras and undervalues the present, over-praises the unseen, the un-cataloged and under-reported over the well-documented and invasively analyzed.. So, we are all supposed to be simpletons and follow along like sheep?

I don't know. I have 30 or so years experience in this sport and think a lot of people here are just repeating stupid shit they have heard biased, misinformed commentators foment in the past. Fuck this nonsense. You can have it.

[PetethePrince]

What absolute anti-intellectual bullshit. There is a prevailing orthodoxy present here which entirely over-praises certain eras and undervalues the present, over-praises the unseen, the un-cataloged and under-reported over the well-documented and invasively analyzed.. So, we are all supposed to be simpletons and follow along like sheep?

I don't know. I have 30 or so years experience in this sport and think a lot of people here are just repeating stupid shit they have heard biased, misinformed commentators foment in the past. Fuck this nonsense. You can have it.

All hail the mighty Seamus!

[PetethePrince]

What's absolutley astonishing about this post is you seem happy to leave aside the fact that Frazier met Ali and Foreman as champion. You seem quite happy to focus upon the worst fighters that Frazier met and compare them favourably to the fighters Frazier met...what about the best fighters he met? Yes, Gomez is better than Daniels. But hardly better than Ali. Or the other top men Frazier met.

Yes, the man has the greatest defense in HW history and he has the nerve to compare his title defenses to Vitali. The win against Ali is tenfolds to everything Vitali has done, including "Winning the event" against an overweight, old, past-prime Lennox Lewis.

[Bummy Davis]

I am not a big fan of grading a fighters chin by how many times he was down.

If Lewis had got up several times against Ramhan and McCall and won, would we then dowengrade his chin?


Good point..make you wonder "the bigger they are the harder it is to get the Fork up"

[Bummy Davis]

Mac Foster, not Bob. Mac was a heavyweight puncher. And no, Frazier did not fight him.


Thats because Jerry Quarry owned Mac, I was in the garden that night and Quarry owned Mac and Frazier beat Quarry 2 times...If Frazier avoided fighters like Larry Holmes did during his rein and gave guys like Foreman enough time to get picked off instead of fighting anyone worthy he may have been Champ longer but his style mandates a short prime

[Mendoza]

8 of those were against Foreman, and 2 when he was caught cold against Bonavena. And consider this: Frazier got up immediately after all of those knockdowns, having taken flush shots from one of the bulkiest punchers ever. Yet, some of those uppercuts virtually lifted Joe up in the air! If that doesn't demonstrate quality punch resistance, I don't know what does.

People get knocked down in boxing. Foreman was virtually finished on numerous occasions - even by a non-puncher in Holyfield. Ali was laid out by a virtual Light Heavyweight in Cooper. Glass jaws there as well?

Vitali hasn't been KD'd 11 times. But, then, that's not surprising considering he's been fighting the likes of Kevin "ten punches a round" Johnson - hardly a test for the beard. (The only sizeable Heavy Vitali has faced was Lewis, and Lewis collapsed his face with a glancing right hand.) Ask yourself this: would either of the Klitschkos finished on their feet against Foreman? Are we sure they'd necessarily even beat guys like Quarry and Bonavena?


Excuses! Frazier was down a few times in a short amateur career, including once in the Olympics, and 11 times as a pro. Spin away, he never had a great chin. Vitali only faced one sizable heavyweight? Pffft! I suppose Peter, Arreola, or Johnson don't count.

[Mendoza]

What's absolutley astonishing about this post is you seem happy to leave aside the fact that Frazier met Ali and Foreman as champion. You seem quite happy to focus upon the worst fighters that Frazier met and compare them favourably to the fighters Frazier met...what about the best fighters he met? Yes, Gomez is better than Daniels. But hardly better than Ali. Or the other top men Frazier met.

Frazer only meet Foreman as champion, and he got canned worse than any ATG I can think of. Unless you consider the NY state championship a champion something, Frazier was not the champion in his other matches vs Foreman or Ali.

You don't seriously consider Frazier a champion before he meet Ali do you?

Again, Frazier had three title defenses as champion. Two were vs journeyman at best ( and he did not look good in one, and got his knees buckled in the other ), and one he got creamed.

Frazier was 1-4 vs Ali and Foreman, and down a few times vs. lesser talents in a relatively short career, which as I pointed out was a career where he meet 1 dangerous heavyweight puncher in Foreman.

Again, I think most top 25 heavies can go 1-4 vs Ali and Foreman, particularly when Foreman and Ali were well past their best in their last fights with Frazier.

Oh--And though I have not seen the film ( And I doubt most have here ), Frazier might have been given a gift decision over Scrap Iron Johnson. Not sure, but I hear it was a close one in the ring, but not on the judges score card.

Since some here are very reluctant to agree with facts, it makes me question their intellectual honesty, which is something that greatly differs from an opinion.

[Mendoza]

It was on a Superstars competition around the time of Foreman I. Joe didn't display much "athleticism" in the event. He was slow, weak and uncoordinated. In particular he could not military press what appeared to be about 90 pounds. But that's why we judge boxing ability in the ring, not on the b-ball court or football field like Bert Sugar.


Correct. The performance was an absolute embarrassment to the most prize possession in sports. Frazier was a horrible athlete. As I said before, Futch said Frazier had the worst body of any heavyweight champion.

I also agree with Bert Sugar comment that boxing is best judged in the ring, not on other courts. Still, not being able to press 90 pounds once when the others in the competition did underscores a lack of physical strength.

You won't find crotch jockeys like Pete agreeing to known facts, Seamus.

[McGrain]

What absolute anti-intellectual bullshit. There is a prevailing orthodoxy present here which entirely over-praises certain eras and undervalues the present, over-praises the unseen, the un-cataloged and under-reported over the well-documented and invasively analyzed.. So, we are all supposed to be simpletons and follow along like sheep?


Nah, this is something you've made up in your head. Era-bias exists for all eras depending entirely upon which poster you are talking to. You've consistantly claimed this and consistantly failed to back it.

What I said: "When a poster "gets it" on this forum he generally deserves it". Mendoza isn't "getting it" for prefering Vitali to Frazier (perfectly reasonable), he's getting it for claiming that Frazier ducked Liston and then ignoring the rebuttle, for analyzing Frazier's title competition whilst ignoring the best fighters he fought.

[he grant]

What an absurb series series of comments v.s. Frazier ... the b.s. about his chin is pathetic. 11 knockdowns suffered but eight were in two fights to Foreman who had the power to crush anyone.

The Superstars as a barameter of Joe's strength ? What crap. Joe was a boxer who never trained with weights in his life. The event, in which he competed against trained professional athletes from many sports, almost all of which have strength trainers and exposure to weights. Frazier walked in with no experience and zero form and blotched it. Now some here are saying he was weak? If so, you know nothing. Frazier's exceptional strength was in his legs and trunk. Prior to Foreman it was more than enough to dominate a division.

Seamus: Valid point but there is also another position. Some think the world has peaked with the mechanical and highly flawed Klitkchko Brothers, as if their size makes up for their glaring weaknesses as fighters. Believe it or not men existed from fifty and eighty years ago that could have exposed both as not invincible.

As always, so much would depend on the particular match up and the conditions like ring size and referee ..

[McGrain]

Frazer only meet Foreman as champion, and he got canned worse than any ATG I can think of.

Worse than Jones against Green? Worse than Patterson against Liston? Worse than Schmeling against Louis?


You don't seriously consider Frazier a champion before he meet Ali do you?

Yes. If you prefer, no. I don't have a problem with that point of view. You certainly can't paint Vitali and Wlad as champions if you're not going to acknowledge Frazier's claim.

Again, Frazier had three title defenses as champion. Two were vs journeyman at best ( and he did not look good in one, and got his knees buckled in the other ), and one he got creamed.

Again, this is a fair perspective. If you don't want to acknowledge Frazier's NYSAC, WBC, WBA, title defences before he met Ali (who held no title) you don't have to. I do acknowledge them, which i'm sure you will agree is also reasonable.

What I will look for from you now is total consistancy. If Frazier made no title defences, nor has Vitali.

Again, I think most top 25 heavies can go 1-4 vs Ali and Foreman, particularly when Foreman and Ali were well past their best in their last fights with Frazier.

This works both ways.

Oh--And though I have not seen the film ( And I doubt most have here ), Frazier might have been given a gift decision over Scrap Iron Johnson.

Source?

Since some here are very reluctant to agree with facts, it makes me question their intellectual honesty, which is something that greatly differs from an opinion.

Intellectual dishonesty like claiming Joe Louis "did a summersault" out of the ring against Buddy Bear and "only a miracle saved him"? Or a different kind of intellectual dishonesty?

[McGrain]

What an absurb series series of comments v.s. Frazier ... the b.s. about his chin is pathetic. 11 knockdowns suffered but eight were in two fights to Foreman who had the power to crush anyone...


Apparently "being hurt" is the new "being knocked the fuck out".

[Briscoe]

Frazer only meet Foreman as champion, and he got canned worse than any ATG I can think of. Unless you consider the NY state championship a champion something, Frazier was not the champion in his other matches vs Foreman or Ali.

You don't seriously consider Frazier a champion before he meet Ali do you?

Again, Frazier had three title defenses as champion. Two were vs journeyman at best ( and he did not look good in one, and got his knees buckled in the other ), and one he got creamed.

Frazier was 1-4 vs Ali and Foreman, and down a few times vs. lesser talents in a relatively short career, which as I pointed out was a career where he meet 1 dangerous heavyweight puncher in Foreman.

Again, I think most top 25 heavies can go 1-4 vs Ali and Foreman, particularly when Foreman and Ali were well past their best in their last fights with Frazier.

Oh--And though I have not seen the film ( And I doubt most have here ), Frazier might have been given a gift decision over Scrap Iron Johnson. Not sure, but I hear it was a close one in the ring, but not on the judges score card.

Since some here are very reluctant to agree with facts, it makes me question their intellectual honesty, which is something that greatly differs from an opinion.

I've been reading what you have to say, but all your facts are wrong or twisted to your advantage. You don't know any of the absolute truth regarding any of the situations you are talking about.

Example #1: "Frazier had three title defenses as a champion."
Don't know where you got that number. At that time (during Frazier's era) there was a serious cluster@*#& to who was considered the champion. To many people Frazier became champ after beating Ali (in 1971), and had two title defenses after that. Some people consider when he beat Jimmy Ellis (in 1970) and unified the WBC, WBA, and NYSAC parts of the title and defended those belts four times (the 5th being the loss to Foreman). Some will go as far to say he won it in 1968 against Buster Mathis while the WBC and WBA were figuring out how to fill Ali's absence and that was defended that five times and stopped recognizing it when he fought Bob Foster. However, if you count that entire period he was considered some form of champion you could take it from 1968 to 1973 with a total of nine defenses. You've got two, four, or nine defenses to choose from here to make your argument and you choose three which isnt even an option.

Example #2 "Frazier was 1-4 vs Ali and Foreman"
Really? You're going to go this route? What a horrible construct of an argument. Ken Norton went 1-3 against Ali and Foreman. Tyson went 0-2 against Lewis and Douglas. Larry Holmes went 0-3 against Michael Spinks and Mike Tyson. George Foreman went 0-5 against Tommy Morrison, Jimmy Young, Ali, Holyfield, and Shannon Briggs. Frazier did do better second time around against Foreman when he tightened up his boxing skills however he was absolutly shot by that time and partially blind in one eye. Honestly, I don't think you know anything about how tough it was for Smokin' Joe or how his career went.

Example #3 "...And though I have not seen the film..."
Haven't seen the film? Then why in the hell are you talking about it? If you can't have any real proof to backup your argument, it's an even dumber idea to try to bring in obscure & unchecked information to save your position.

Example #4 "Since some here are very reluctant to agree with facts, it makes me question their intellectual honesty, which is something that greatly differs from an opinion."
You are in the exact same boat sir. You've been spitting out misinformation*. If I were a mod and this part of the forum required actual cited information, I would ban you for life. You're not the only offender, but I see in this debate you're falling apart trying to cover your ass. Sometimes I find it important to step down and be humble about my actions. If I'm wrong, I must accept it, see where I went wrong, and learn from it. So I'm guessing you're just too damn stubborn to admit anything other then to you assume you're right. Stop trying to assume any of this silly bullshit and accept some humility in your life. Hell, go research some facts and come back blazing in this argument. You know, try to win this one "out of the fridge" since you're obviously "on the ropes".

*misinformation - Incorrect information that uninformed people use to sound like they know something. They use this incorrect info in arguments and they make "waves" of people who might take this info as their own and create an entire discourse of wrong information. The best answer to misinformation is to educate yourself and use correct properly cited info.

[Mendoza]

What an absurb series series of comments v.s. Frazier ... the b.s. about his chin is pathetic. 11 knockdowns suffered but eight were in two fights to Foreman who had the power to crush anyone.


HE Chins are best tested when they are hit. Take Foreman out of the equation if you must. Frazier by his own admission was close to t TKO loss to Bonevenna, who really is not a big hitter. Other guys who hardly landed anything serious such as Roams, and Stander buckles his knees, and a passive Bugner stunned Frazier too. By no means did Frazier have a good chin. If he did, the occasional shots that landed clean on him would not have a pronounced effect.

[Mendoza]

McGrain;5698618]Worse than Jones against Green? Worse than Patterson against Liston? Worse than Schmeling against Louis?


If you have to use an ancient Roy Jones to make points, you are really grasping for straws. Yes, I think Foreman walk though of Frazier in less than two full rounds is far Worse then Louis lasting many with Schmeling.
I really do not consider Schmeling an ATG. To re-phrase, Frazier was blown out in his prime or near prime worse than any other ATG heavy has been before or since.

Yes. If you prefer, no. I don't have a problem with that point of view. You certainly can't paint Vitali and Wlad as champions if you're not going to acknowledge Frazier's claim.

Frazier ducked out of the invitation to crown a champion via tournament with the WBA. Instead he fought for the " New York State " title, which is not even a world title belt. I acknowledge Frazier as world champion after he beat Ali in 1971, not before. I also think his two title defenses as champion were absolute rips offs. The Foreman fight was not, but to see guys saying the competition in title fights stink today, and completing ingoing the fact that popular champs like Frazier fought even worse boggles the mind.

Intellectual dishonesty like claiming Joe Louis "did a summersault" out of the ring against Buddy Bear and "only a miracle saved him"? Or a different kind of intellectual dishonesty?

Do you even know what intellectual dishonesty means? I said form memory Bear floored Lewis and knocked him out of the ring when his back was to the ropes. Yes, Louis did flip over the ropes. Was it a pure somersault? Maybe not, but much of what I am saying here is fact, not from memory.

[Bokaj]

Don't often agree with you Mendoza, but still must give you props for taking it from every angle and still not going down.

Personally, I think both sides have good arguments. The truth is that it's very hard to say for sure. The fact that Futch picked Frazier over Bowe makes a strong impresssion on me, though. And I have earlier picked Bowe in this match-up.

[Briscoe]

Frazier ducked out of the invitation to crown a champion via tournament with the WBA. Instead he fought for the " New York State " title, which is not even a world title belt. I acknowledge Frazier as world champion after he beat Ali in 1971, not before. I also think his two title defenses as champion were absolute rips offs. The Foreman fight was not, but to see guys saying the competition in title fights stink today, and completing ingoing the fact that popular champs like Frazier fought even worse boggles the mind.

I'd say Joe Frazier became champ when he beat Jimmy Ellis for the WBC [vacant], WBA[Ellis defending], and New York[Frazier defending] straps in February, 16th 1970.

From that run you can say he KO'ed Ali's sparring partner, KO'ed the best light heavyweight at the time, defeated one of the very best heavyweights of all time in one of the very best heavyweight fights of all time, then filled it with two crappy defenses before getting shut down by Foreman.

To have beaten Ellis, Foster, and Ali in a row is impressive. Not to mention the fact he fought Quarry and Bonavena (twice!) before the WBA/WBC/NY title run and holds a TKO over George Chuvalo.

[McGrain]

I acknowledge Frazier as world champion after he beat Ali in 1971, not before.

Despite his having fought defeces for the NYSAC (organised world title fights for the best part of 40 years), WBC and WBA titles? How many title defences do you think Vitali Klitschko has had?

Do you even know what intellectual dishonesty means?.

Yes. But I fear you do not. It's been Seamus's go-to phrase for as long as I can remember. Now, apparently, because Seamus has backed you in this thread (i think) it seems to be yours.

For my own part, I don't put a lot of stock in the phrase. Intellectual dishonesty is a nice turn of phrase, but it is percieved. It is also a given. The ancient Greeks made peace with it centuries ago, and they were probably the first society to really recognise the advancement of philosophy and science as connected with language. What Seamus, and now yourself, have labelled "intellectual dishonesty", they labelled "rhetoric". Intellectual dishonesty appears in the eye of the beholder - which is what makes it a handy phrase for someone who is struggling a bit - and it is the job of the beholder, very specifically, to prove it such. Labelling it without demonstrating is useless. Certainly it becomes a struggle to take seriously when the accuser is ignoring counter-points and twisting "facts" to fit their own pattern of argument.

[Mendoza]

I'd say Joe Frazier became champ when he beat Jimmy Ellis for the WBC [vacant], WBA[Ellis defending], and New York[Frazier defending] straps in February, 16th 1970.

From that run you can say he KO'ed Ali's sparring partner, KO'ed the best light heavyweight at the time, defeated one of the very best heavyweights of all time in one of the very best heavyweight fights of all time, then filled it with two crappy defenses before getting shut down by Foreman.

To have beaten Ellis, Foster, and Ali in a row is impressive. Not to mention the fact he fought Quarry and Bonavena (twice!) before the WBA/WBC/NY title run and holds a TKO over George Chuvalo.

I'm not buying it. Maybe your are putting more stock into alphabet or USA state titles than I am.

Ali was the un-defeated and lineal champion, and active in 1970. By that definition, Ali was the champion. While beating Ellis who won the WBA tourney means something, it was not enough.

And speaking of the WBA, why did Frazier opt out of this tournament?

As for Frazier not fighting punchers, he never meet Liston, Mac Foster, Leotis Martin, Ernie Shavers, Kenny Norton, or Ron Lyle.

The path his management took was to fight guys where he had a stylistic advantage over smaller men who were not big punchers. Or in Bugner's case a big man who was afraid to commit to throwing punches. The one exception was Foreman of course.

[Bummy Davis]

HE Chins are best tested when they are hit. Take Foreman out of the equation if you must. Frazier by his own admission was close to t TKO loss to Bonevenna, who really is not a big hitter. Other guys who hardly landed anything serious such as Roams, and Stander buckles his knees, and a passive Bugner stunned Frazier too. By no means did Frazier have a good chin. If he did, the occasional shots that landed clean on him would not have a pronounced effect.


I see you always rate Ken Norton highly, at least a less than Prime Frazier got up 6 times and if the Ref did not stop the fight he would have walked into George again. Lets not forget Joe got up 6 times from some of the hardest and accurate punches Foreman ever threw. Foreman Destroyed Norton but so did Garcia, Shavers and later Cooney but Norton was also put down by journeyman Scott Ledoux 2 times in there draw.

As far as when Frazier became Champ...there was a legitamate unification fight between Frazier and Ellis and a lot of people favored Ellis...well I think everyone believed Frazier made it clear with his dominant and decisive victory over Ellis and Frazier took Ali's best punches in fight 1 and hurt Ali very badly in the 11th and 15th rds...Foreman,Lyle,Bonavena,Liston and Cleveland Williams could not claim the same durability that Frazier showed against the acurate punching Ali

You are judging Frazier by one fight Foreman and lets not Forget Frazier got up battered and bruised for the 6th time ready for more....Was it Foremans power that was suspect or did Frazier have a good chin and recup...It only took Rahman and McCall one punch to Flatten Big man Lewis for the 10 count did they hit harder than Foreman in your opinion ? or did Frazier have a better chin than Lewis?

[McGrain]

And speaking of the WBA, why did Frazier opt out of this tournament?

From around 1.25-2:10
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

As for Frazier not fighting punchers, he never meet Liston, Mac Foster, Leotis Martin, Ernie Shavers, Kenny Norton, or Ron Lyle.

Why on earth do you keep repeating these names without answering the very specific challenges regarding the fighters your listing? You can't just repeatedly name these names as fighters Frazier ducked when specific objections have been raised and you have ignored them. Put up or shut up.

[Mendoza]

I see you always rate Ken Norton highly, at least a less than Prime Frazier got up 6 times and if the Ref did not stop the fight he would have walked into George again. Lets not forget Joe got up 6 times from some of the hardest and accurate punches Foreman ever threw. Foreman Destroyed Norton but so did Garcia, Shavers and later Cooney but Norton was also put down by journeyman Scott Ledoux 2 times in there draw.

As far as when Frazier became Champ...there was a legitamate unification fight between Frazier and Ellis and a lot of people favored Ellis...well I think everyone believed Frazier made it clear with his dominant and decisive victory over Ellis and Frazier took Ali's best punches in fight 1 and hurt Ali very badly in the 11th and 15th rds...Foreman,Lyle,Bonavena,Liston and Cleveland Williams could not claim the same durability that Frazier showed against the acurate punching Ali

You are judging Frazier by one fight Foreman and lets not Forget Frazier got up battered and bruised for the 6th time ready for more....Was it Foremans power that was suspect or did Frazier have a good chin and recup...It only took Rahman and McCall one punch to Flatten Big man Lewis for the 10 count did they hit harder than Foreman in your opinion ?

I think Lewis took some good punches in his career without showing a bad effect. He was also caught. I think both of Lewis' KO losses were due to his own ego, and shock more than him not beating the count.

Ref's stop fights much faster these days. Lewis did beat the count vs. McCall. He did not vs. Rhaman, but perhaps age, Lewis own arrogance, and Rhaman landing a clean right hand had a lot to do with it.

I don't see a huge difference in durability between Lewis and Frazier. Neither had good chins vs big punchers. You could argue Lewis' was better because he took some pretty good shots without being as shaken up.

I do see a difference in willingness for Lewis to meet big punchers. Lewis face a boat load of bombers, Morrison, Tua, Vitali, and Tyson.

I think Frazier had a lot of heart, but in the 3rd match with Ali, its not like he pushed Futch out of the way to answer the bell for the 15th. If Frazier did some acting to show Futch he was ok, he might have seen the final bell.

[itrymariti]

Excuses! Frazier was down a few times in a short amateur career, including once in the Olympics, and 11 times as a pro. Spin away, he never had a great chin. Vitali only faced one sizable heavyweight? Pffft! I suppose Peter, Arreola, or Johnson don't count.

The key point is this: What kind of standards are you using to appraise Frazier's chin as being weak? That he got KD'd by Foreman? Well, I guess Lyle, Chuvalo and Norton have glass jaws, too. That he was caught cold by Bonavena? Well, fuck, even Pacquiao took a few drubbings when he was a kid; Duran was downed by De Jesus on more than one occasion. And it's all irrelevant, anyway. Ultimately, neither of the Klitschkos have the style or the ability to put Frazier down, and neither of them will have any reply when he gets inside and starts uncorking.

[Briscoe]

Ali was the un-defeated and lineal champion, and active in 1970. By that definition, Ali was the champion. While beating Ellis who won the WBA tourney means something, it was not enough.I'd hate to break it to you, but there's one glaring piece of info you're missing. Muhammad Ali officially retired to allow the winner of the Joe Frazier vs. Jimmy Ellis bout the rite to be considered the undisputed heavyweight champion. He did this on February 1st, 1970. Following into Septemeber 11, 1970 when he announced his fight with Quarry in Georgia.

Mendoza, as much as "you're not buying it" other documents and history state otherwise. Revisionist only works if there's actual proof. Your rules for judging fighters seem strictly arbitrary. As a man [I'm talking about myself here] attempting to become a boxing historian who is an accomplished and graduated English major I see you ignoring many traditional rules in which you hold an argument. Case in point, you're refusing actual history. Ali officially retired to allow this giant build up to a fight with him and Frazier. This way Ali could say he not only came back, he built up his comeback to eventually fight against the very best fighter that held the official title at this time. Officially Frazier was champ when he unified all the straps against Ellis. Officially Ali retired to allow the winner of the aforementioned fight to become the official world heavyweight champion. At the same time, Ali still remained to be the only other former champ[in good health] that hadn't lost his title before he retired.

[Briscoe]

I'm bumping this to make it clear to Mendoza, but not without some extra information to make it worthwhile.

Even the Ring acknowledged the Frazier vs. Ellis winner to be the new official heavyweight boxing champ. In your argument you literally have no official ground to stand on. Only the grounds you created. Which are misinformed.

[OBCboxer]

HE Chins are best tested when they are hit. Take Foreman out of the equation if you must. Frazier by his own admission was close to t TKO loss to Bonevenna, who really is not a big hitter. Other guys who hardly landed anything serious such as Roams, and Stander buckles his knees, and a passive Bugner stunned Frazier too. By no means did Frazier have a good chin. If he did, the occasional shots that landed clean on him would not have a pronounced effect.

Your an idiot. Frazier was green in that fight against Bonavena. We saw what happend to Bonavena in their second fight, Frazier disposed of him rather easily. Fighters get stunned, it happens. I guess Vitali has a glass jaw for being hurt against the mighty Corrie Sanders.

[OBCboxer]

I think Frazier had a lot of heart, but in the 3rd match with Ali, its not like he pushed Futch out of the way to answer the bell for the 15th. If Frazier did some acting to show Futch he was ok, he might have seen the final bell.

This whole post is excuse-laden and moronic but this one really got me. Would you have the energy to get up and start pushing Futch out of the way after fighting in an arena well over 100 degrees? Plus, before Ibeabuchi-Tua, that set the record for most punches thrown in a Heavyweight bout. Ali was ready to quit as well, I guess he doesn't have the heart of a warrior either.

[itrymariti]

For my own part, I don't put a lot of stock in the phrase. Intellectual dishonesty is a nice turn of phrase, but it is percieved. It is also a given. The ancient Greeks made peace with it centuries ago, and they were probably the first society to really recognise the advancement of philosophy and science as connected with language. What Seamus, and now yourself, have labelled "intellectual dishonesty", they labelled "rhetoric". Intellectual dishonesty appears in the eye of the beholder - which is what makes it a handy phrase for someone who is struggling a bit - and it is the job of the beholder, very specifically, to prove it such. Labelling it without demonstrating is useless. Certainly it becomes a struggle to take seriously when the accuser is ignoring counter-points and twisting "facts" to fit their own pattern of argument.

Surely, there's a fact-of-the-matter about whether or not someone is deliberately lying?

[McGrain]

Surely, there's a fact-of-the-matter about whether or not someone is deliberately lying?


Well I would call that "lying"!

[itrymariti]

Well I would call that "lying"!

Yeah, but the point is that there's no subjectivity about that (unless you think that there's subjectivity about everything). Mendoza is scraping the bottom of the barrell for contrived excuses about everything. Fact!

[McGrain]

Yeah, but the point is that there's no subjectivity about that (unless you think that there's subjectivity about everything). Mendoza is scraping the bottom of the barrell for contrived excuses about everything. Fact!


Well I wasn't talking about Mendoza, rather this intellectual dishonesty idea.

[Seamus]

Surely, there's a fact-of-the-matter about whether or not someone is deliberately lying?


Sometimes people become more concerned with winning an argument (even when it is entirely supposition as this case) than in shedding new light on an issue.

[McGrain]

Sometimes people become more concerned with winning an argument (even when it is entirely supposition as this case) than in shedding new light on an issue.



That's a good post.

[PetethePrince]

Frazier ducked out of the invitation to crown a champion via tournament with the WBA. Instead he fought for the " New York State " title, which is not even a world title belt. I acknowledge Frazier as world champion after he beat Ali in 1971, not before.

And yet, you still don't know why he didn't enter the tournament. Love your wording of "ducked".

[boxerca]

I see him beating both Klitschko's. Lewis and Bowe might have been a problem for him, though. Those two fights could go either way.

[Bokaj]

Well I would call that "lying"!

You're not going post-modern on me now are you, old sport?:smoke

[McGrain]

You're not going post-modern on me now are you, old sport?:smoke


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Bokaj]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Didn't I fucking know it!

[he grant]

Wow Mendoza, you are the only one I have ever heard of in thirty years of studying this sport that plays down Frazier's heart and will... I wont go beyond saying here I think you are way off on this one ...

Pete: Frazier not entering the tournment was a strategic move plain and simply. Who in the tournment do you feel would have defeated him ?

[PetethePrince]

Wow Mendoza, you are the only one I have ever heard of in thirty years of studying this sport that plays down Frazier's heart and will... I wont go beyond saying here I think you are way off on this one ...

Pete: Frazier not entering the tournment was a strategic move plain and simply. Who in the tournment do you feel would have defeated him ?

Nobody, that's my point. Yank said repeatedly that not only it wasn't right that Frazier fight against guys ranked above him. It wasn't really in their best interest, and Frazier and the team was fine with the keeping respect to the NY title. Also, I think deep down Frazier considered not entering out of respect for Ali who he thought was still the champ. Think you misconstrued what I said if you think I agreed with Frazier entering to avoid any fighter.

[Brit Sillynanny]

The Mike Tyson that fought Lennox Lewis had no business fighting Lennox Lewis at that stage of his career, especially weighing in excess of 230 lbs. I believe Mike's weight at fight time was 240 lbs. Lewis was still scared of this depleted version of Tyson and probably could have finished him earlier than the 8th round. This is a fight that probably has drastically different results if Lewis faced a Tyson near his prime weight and prime shape, 215 - 220 lbs.

Tua and Tyson stood in front of Lewis trying to get inside his reach with very little head movement. Pre-FOTC Joe Frazier would be much more difficult for any of the above mentioned to hit cleanly, and all them being superheavyweights provide Frazier with a sizeable target for his body shots.

I don't believe Lennox beat Holyfield the second time around as convincly as some say on this forum, and in fact there are more than a few people who believe Lennox was handed the rematch victory based on the controversial decision from the first fight.

I will agree with you that Bowe, Lewis and the Klitschkos could beat the lazy, out of shape 1973 version of Frazier like Foreman did but not as severe a beating. Perhaps Lewis KOs this version of Frazier in less than 5 rounds, and Bowe probably 7 or 8.

None of the above would last 12 rounds against prime Frazier, pre-FOTC and I'd favour Joe stopping all of them before the 15 round distance.

good post

[Brit Sillynanny]

Lewis more durable than Frazier? Man the Foreman fight really haunts him.


If it comes from someone under about 47 then it don't mean shit. Seems like if you weren't there then dudes can't properly assess prime Clay/Ali and Frazier.

:D

[CF Gauss]

It's amazing that supposedly glass-jawed Frazier went three brutal fights with Muhammad Ali without getting knocked down.


I also wonder how many fighters would have been able to beat the count six times after getting decked by George Foreman.

[Mendoza]

And yet, you still don't know why he didn't enter the tournament. Love your wording of "ducked".

He was invited but declined to fight. The WBA tournament was the best conversation around back then. Call that what you will .

I suppose the equivalent today is being invited to participate in the super six, and saying, no thanks, then fighting for the WBU belt.

[Mendoza]

Wow Mendoza, you are the only one I have ever heard of in thirty years of studying this sport that plays down Frazier's heart and will... I wont go beyond saying here I think you are way off on this one ...

Pete: Frazier not entering the tournment was a strategic move plain and simply. Who in the tournment do you feel would have defeated him ?

Its the last jab in my discussion. In a time when there is no clear champ, and your invited to a tournament to crown one, you should go. I do think Frazier would have been the favorite in the tournament. Does he win it? Depends on his draw.

The equivalent of Frazier declining this today would be Kessler or Abraham declining an invitation to the super six.

Ali vs Frazier was III was a hotly contested rubber match. One guy let his corner shut down the show without giving much fuss on his stool. We will never know how badly Frazier really wanted to come out for the 15th round. The fight looked to be close. There was only one round to go. One this is for sure, Frazier didn't protest much on his stool. There are multiple degrees of surrenderer in boxing.

[Mendoza]

It's amazing that supposedly glass-jawed Frazier went three brutal fights with Muhammad Ali without getting knocked down.

I also wonder how many fighters would have been able to beat the count six times after getting decked by George Foreman.

Huh? The 2nd Ali fight was a bore, hardly brutal. Ali landed a big right that sent Frazier reeling in round 2, and after that the fight was a clinch fest.

[McGrain]

He was invited but declined to fight. The WBA tournament was the best conversation around back then. Call that what you will .

I've posted video footage where Frazier explains why he isn't keen on taking part in the tournamnet. You've ignored it, as well as my explanations for why he never met Shavers and Liston, although you continue to claim that he ducked them.

I suppose the equivalent today is being invited to participate in the super six, and saying, no thanks, then fighting for the WBU belt.

The WBU belt? You're now comparing the NYSAC recognition with the WBU recognition? Kidding?

The NYSAC HW title was and is amongst the most prestigious titles in the history of the sport. NYSAC HW champions according to Boxrec:

Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Max Schmeling
Jack Sharkey
Primo Carnera
Max Baer
Jim Braddock
Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Ingemar Johansson
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier

The inaugral title fight was fought by Jack Dempsey. The last, by Joe Frazier. This is perhaps the neatest lineage of the HW title in existance. The NYSAC then backed the WBC and faded. The WBC was for a time the most widely recognised of the world titles. Joe Frazier also held and defended this belt. You also refuse to acknowledge those defences.

Perhaps i'm being hard on you, but it just seems to me that talking about the Kliltschkos makes you gaga in the head. Whether it's Joe Louis doing backflips or the WBU equal to the NYSAC, or Chageav in his fighting prime, it seems you're incapable of objectivity in a thread where their names are maentioned. Tell you what, why don't you proivde a list of the WBU super-middleweight champions to justify your claim.

[he grant]

Honestly Mendoza, that statement is beneath you regarding Frazier in Superfight 3 ...

[JIm Broughton]

I think you have to take into account that these super heavies didn't actually fight like Foreman of 73 fought. George came right at Frazier and opened up the heavy artillery early not letting Joe get warmed up. Joe would actually have a better chance against the above mentioned big boys because they would be a lilltle more tentative in thier approach. If Joe can take these men into the later rounds then his chances dramatically increase as his conditioning(at his best)was second to none. If the big boys decide to open up early and let the fur fly then it's a different story of course but I don't see that happening especially after tasting a couple of Joe's hooks to the body and head. Frazier was one of those fighers that you either had to knockout or outbox in order to win and you had better be very good at either method ala Ali or Foreman. Anything short of that and you were in for a long (or more appropriately) short night.

[he grant]

Wlad would never dare because he'd have that china chin caved in ... Vitali is simply not the big puncher to do the job ...

[Mendoza]

The NYSAC HW title was and is amongst the most prestigious titles in the history of the sport. NYSAC HW champions according to Boxrec:

Mcgrain,

A few questions for you.

When was the last NY State title defense before Frazier vs Mathis?

And when was the next NY State title fight post Mathis vs. Frazier?

Here's my chance to learn something. I tend to think the WBA tournament event was much bigger than the NY State ( Not to be confused with World title ) at that period of time.

[Bummy Davis]

Its the last jab in my discussion. In a time when there is no clear champ, and your invited to a tournament to crown one, you should go. I do think Frazier would have been the favorite in the tournament. Does he win it? Depends on his draw.

The equivalent of Frazier declining this today would be Kessler or Abraham declining an invitation to the super six.

Ali vs Frazier was III was a hotly contested rubber match. One guy let his corner shut down the show without giving much fuss on his stool. We will never know how badly Frazier really wanted to come out for the 15th round. The fight looked to be close. There was only one round to go. One this is for sure, Frazier didn't protest much on his stool. There are multiple degrees of surrenderer in boxing.


Frazier was tired and swolen, he was still going to go out in that last rd and fight his heart out...Frazier looked worse but Ali was also in bad shape also. There was no quit in Joe...he could have said his shoulder hurt like Liston or stayed on his stool like Sam Peter..He argued with Futch but respected the man as a team player with the same goal to win. If you call that a surrender you are reaching Mendoza...the man got up 6 times vs Foreman and was ready to go down again..Fraziers Heart was one of the best..it ranks up there with Marciano,Holyfield,Gatti,Sad Muhamad,Barney Ross,Armstrong,Ali,etc.

[Fighting Weight]

I think Frazier had a lot of heart, but in the 3rd match with Ali, its not like he pushed Futch out of the way to answer the bell for the 15th. If Frazier did some acting to show Futch he was ok, he might have seen the final bell.

This is the same clown that defends VITLAY for quitting against feather fist Byrd, and bangs on about how VITLAY would have KO'd Lewis had it not been stopped due to the energetic hissy fit VITLAY had AFTER HE KNEW THE FIGHT WAS OVER :rofl:rofl:rofl

Your double standards know no bounds, seriously. Start watching netball or baseball or something. I didn't notice VITLAY fighting off the doc or the ref until after the fight was stopped with Lewis either, and all that bullshit you spout about him not knowing the fight was going to be stopped doesn't cut the mustard. He knew the fight was going to be stopped and he only chose to argue about it when he knew the nasty man couldn't hit him any more :yep

How you've got the nerve to take one stance with the VITLAY V Lewis fight and then spout that shit about Frazier after one of the most punishing HW fights ever is absolutely beyond my comprehension, it really is.

[Briscoe]

Mendoza is full of crap. He's ignored all of my posts except for the one that he could answer and appear like he's talking about something. Except even in that post he's wrong. It's time to give it up.

I can only harbor respect for people that admit humility. Mendoza, you're obviously so full of yourself you can't even help carry an intelligent discussion without having to "win a few" along the way. It isn't in how many arguments you win, it's how you learn from it. It's embarrassing to even read your posts when you're getting desperate.

[Mendoza]

Frazier was tired and swolen, he was still going to go out in that last rd and fight his heart out...Frazier looked worse but Ali was also in bad shape also. There was no quit in Joe...he could have said his shoulder hurt like Liston or stayed on his stool like Sam Peter..He argued with Futch but respected the man as a team player with the same goal to win. If you call that a surrender you are reaching Mendoza...the man got up 6 times vs Foreman and was ready to go down again..Fraziers Heart was one of the best..it ranks up there with Marciano,Holyfield,Gatti,Sad Muhamad,Barney Ross,Armstrong,Ali,etc.

Well its a good thing we all can see the video. Frazier's eyes were swollen, but it was not as they were so bad he could not see. The 3rd Ali fight looked to be close. When Futch shut down the show, Fraizer did not argue much or protest with body language. Sometimes a fighters body language and reaction tells a trainer what he needs to know.

I do think Frazier had great heart, but my point here is he truly wanted to be out there for the 15th round, he could have acted much better.

[McGrain]

When was the last NY State title defense before Frazier vs Mathis?

And when was the next NY State title fight post Mathis vs. Frazier?

Here's my chance to learn something. I tend to think the WBA tournament event was much bigger than the NY State ( Not to be confused with World title ) at that period of time.


It's NOT the New York state title. It's the NYSAC World Heavyweight title. Previous to Frazier-Mathis we had Ali-Foley. After Mathis-Frazier was Frazier-Ramos.

None of these fights were for a state title. They were for the WORLD title, the same one that Louis, Ali and Demspey held.

[Mendoza]

Mendoza is full of crap. He's ignored all of my posts except for the one that he could answer and appear like he's talking about something. Except even in that post he's wrong. It's time to give it up.

I can only harbor respect for people that admit humility. Mendoza, you're obviously so full of yourself you can't even help carry an intelligent discussion without having to "win a few" along the way. It isn't in how many arguments you win, it's how you learn from it. It's embarrassing to even read your posts when you're getting desperate.

What have we here, a philly based fighter in Briscoe sticking up for Smokine Joe? As we know, local based favorites seldom admit the downside of their stable mates career. Hint of sarcasm!

Here are my points. You are free to agree or disagree with them.

1 ) Frazier never beat a good puncher. Quarry is likely the best puncher he defeated. Frazier's resume aside from Foreman who smashed him with ease, is void of punchers.

2 ) Frazier chin vs big puncher is suspect, and should be taken into consideration in fantasy match ups vs big punchers. Furthermore his attacking oriented style plays right into the hands of good punchers, Evidence is he was down 11 times in a 37 pro fight career, and down and stunned by lesser punchers.

3 ) Frazier opted out of an invitation to the WBA tournament, and fought for a lesser NY state title.

4 ) Frazier is 1-4 vs the best fighters he faced, with 3 KO defeats.

5 ) Two of Frazier title fights as lineal champion vs Stander and Daniels were very poor selections....in fact neither man would be in the top ten today in what some here consider a weak era of heavyweight boxing.

I'll bet you a chesestake and pretzel with mustard that ALL of the above points by me are valid. You can attempt to diffuse the the points and spin off into tangents, but that is not what I am here to say. Accept the truth, or don't. I am sorry if you are upset.

I am willing learn from any conversation, but when my points are obviously skipped for agenda ridden reasons on the internet, I have a small character fault of sharpening my language to the independent minded readers to get that point across.

[itrymariti]

1 ) Frazier never beat a good puncher. Quarry is likely the best puncher he defeated. Frazier's resume aside from Foreman who smashed him with ease, is void of punchers.

By your definition of "good", neither of the Klitschkos have ever beaten a good fighter, let alone a good puncher.
2 ) Frazier chin vs big puncher is suspect, and should be taken into consideration in fantasy match ups vs big punchers. Furthermore his attacking oriented style plays right into the hands of good punchers, Evidence is he was down 11 times in a 37 pro fight career, and down and stunned by lesser punchers.

Neither of the Klitschkos bear any stylistic resemblance to the fighters that hurt Frazier. It's not as if they both have unassailable chins themselves.

4 ) Frazier is 1-4 vs the best fighters he faced, with 3 KO defeats.

How would VK and WK have gone against the fighters on Frazier's record? Worse than he did.

I'll bet you a chesestake and pretzel with mustard that ALL of the above points by me are valid. You can attempt to diffuse the the points and spin off into tangents, but that is not what I am here to say. Accept the truth, or don't. I am sorry if you are upset.

I am willing learn from any conversation, but when my points are obviously skipped for agenda ridden reasons on the internet, I have a small character fault of sharpening my language to the independent minded readers to get that point across.

But your points are irrelevant. It's one thing dubiously nit-picking on some infinitesimal weaknesses in Frazier's style or record; it's entirely another that he might lose to either or both of the Klitschkos.

[McGrain]

It's one thing dubiously nit-picking on some infinitesimal weaknesses in Frazier's style or record; it's entirely another that he might lose to either or both of the Klitschkos.

I find the later unoffensive, but the former has been very depressing.

[itrymariti]

I find the later unoffensive, but the former has been very depressing.

Depressing since his points are so trivial, contrived and unimportant. It's just like he has to hate on anybody who threatens to slight his boys.

[he grant]

Chuvalo, Bonavena, Bob Foster, Manuel Ramos and Jerry Quarry all had ko power ... Ali, who was not a huge puncher but who could hit when he planted his feet, blasted Frazier dozens of times flush ... the argument against Joe's chin is simply wrong.

The issue about the WBA tournment is pointless. To keep bring it up shows a weak foundation in an anti-Frazier bias ...

[McGrain]

3 ) Frazier opted out of an invitation to the WBA tournament, and fought for a lesser NY state title.


As i've told you twice, the NY state title is not what Joe Frazier fought for. The NYSAC HW title is a WORLD title. The NBA is basically the WBA. NYSAC is slightly older than the NBA, in fact there are those that think that NBA was created in response to the power the NYSAC weilded.

The idea that the WBA title was more prestigious than the NYSAC title is something you have made up in your head. It has basically no basis in fact. In spite of the fact that you've had details pointed out to you concerning the proud history of this title you've continued to deliberately confuse it with the NY State HW title. And you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty.

Why oh why do you refer to the NYSAC title as a state title? Don't yous ee every valid source listing it as a WORLD title fight? Do you think Dempsey-Tunney was for the state title also? New York is just the location of the comition that had sanctioned more heavyweigh title fights than any other organisation in history.

[he grant]

Debating the tournment is silly .. Frazier was already number 2 and said it would be dumb for him to have to fight lower ranked fighters ... again I ask, who here feels anyone he did not fight would have beaten him ?

[Mendoza]

As i've told you twice, the NY state title is not what Joe Frazier fought for. The NYSAC HW title is a WORLD title. The NBA is basically the WBA. NYSAC is slightly older than the NBA, in fact there are those that think that NBA was created in response to the power the NYSAC weilded.

The idea that the WBA title was more prestigious than the NYSAC title is something you have made up in your head. It has basically no basis in fact. In spite of the fact that you've had details pointed out to you concerning the proud history of this title you've continued to deliberately confuse it with the NY State HW title. And you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty.

Why oh why do you refer to the NYSAC title as a state title? Don't yous ee every valid source listing it as a WORLD title fight? Do you think Dempsey-Tunney was for the state title also? New York is just the location of the comition that had sanctioned more heavyweigh title fights than any other organisation in history.

Mcgrain,

I have a few civil minded questions. Can you answer them?

1. What was Mathis ranked by ring magazine going into the NY State title match with Frazier?

2. What do you consider more impressive? Beating a overweight Mathis for a vacant NY State title belt or winning the WBA tournament which had several ring magazine ranked opponents in it?

3 ) Dempsey and Tunney fought for the National Boxing Association World heavyweight title, which seems to differ from the vacant NYSAC World heavyweight title that Frazier won by beating Mathis. Are you sure they are exactly the same?

[Mendoza]

he grant: Chuvalo, Bonavena, Bob Foster, Manuel Ramos and Jerry Quarry all had ko power ... Ali, who was not a huge puncher but who could hit when he planted his feet, blasted Frazier dozens of times flush ... the argument against Joe's chin is simply wrong.

Who did Foster ever KO at heavy? What ranked guy did Chavalo ever stop at heavy, besides Quarry who seemed to blow the count?

Ramos a big puncher at heavy? With a 33% Ko ratio for his career? Odd statement, yet when Ramos actually landed something he clearly shook up Frazier.

I would call Quarry a sharp hitter, not a big puncher,

Sorry none of these guys are big punchers in my book.

I would guess if you came up with a list of top ten heavies, Frazier's chin is among the three worst on the list. If you don't mind, I'd like to see your top ten list, then see your own comparison on where he'd rate in terms of chin.

[McGrain]

Who did Foster ever KO at heavy?.

Foster has something like 20 ko's at HW.

[McGrain]

Mcgrain,

I have a few civil minded questions. Can you answer them?

How about you answer some questions? Every new post from you has seven new questions, but you continue to duck the ones you've been asked repeatedly in this thread.

[Mendoza]

How about you answer some questions? Every new post from you has seven new questions, but you continue to duck the ones you've been asked repeatedly in this thread.

I think have replied to quite a few questions and statments in this thread. Perhaps more replies than anyone else. If I missed a few, I can address them later here or via PM.

My quesitons for you are:

1. What was Mathis ranked by ring magazine going into the NY State title match with Frazier?

2. What do you consider more impressive? Beating a overweight Mathis for a vacant NYSAC title belt or winning the WBA tournament which had several ring magazine ranked opponents in it?

3 ) Dempsey and Tunney fought for the National Boxing Association World heavyweight title, which seems to differ from the vacant NYSAC World heavyweight title that Frazier won by beating Mathis. Are you sure they are exactly the same?

I'll have to read the replies later as I have family coming over for the holidays. Maybe Sunday or Monday,

[he grant]

Mendoza, over the past year I've seen you here go around endlessly on points and I'm not into it. You are simply wrong about Frazier and the vast majority of knowledgable boxing historians agree with me.

Since Foreman was the only man to ever TKO Joe, not a cornerman when he was blind, and since you love to write, why don't you tell me what heavyweights did Foreman did not hit hard enough to stop ?

[Mendoza]

Mendoza, over the past year I've seen you here go around endlessly on points and I'm not into it. You are simply wrong about Frazier and the vast majority of knowledgable boxing historians agree with me.

Since Foreman was the only man to ever TKO Joe, not a cornerman when he was blind, and since you love to write, why don't you tell me what heavyweights did Foreman did not hit hard enough to stop ?

As I said take Foreman of the equation. to answer you question Foreman in his prime went the distance with Jimmy Young, and and Peralta. If truth is told. Foreman looked gassed in the 10th vs., Peralta, and if the fight was 12 or 15 rounds Foreman might have been in trouble. As we know Foreman collapsed in his dressing room after the Young fight.

Frazier was down by others and shaken up rather quickly on some solid punchers that landed. This to me says he never had a good chin vs punchers. Most heavyweight don't.

In the context of durability among champions, Frazier is not first or second tier in my opinion.

I asked you to come up with a list of your ten best champions and honestly tell me where you'd rate Frazier's chin on that list. I'd still like to read that one day. I predict it will not be high on the list. If this is the case you and I are mostly disagreeing on shades of gray on this topic.

[OBCboxer]

This is the same clown that defends VITLAY for quitting against feather fist Byrd, and bangs on about how VITLAY would have KO'd Lewis had it not been stopped due to the energetic hissy fit VITLAY had AFTER HE KNEW THE FIGHT WAS OVER :rofl:rofl:rofl

Your double standards know no bounds, seriously. Start watching netball or baseball or something. I didn't notice VITLAY fighting off the doc or the ref until after the fight was stopped with Lewis either, and all that bullshit you spout about him not knowing the fight was going to be stopped doesn't cut the mustard. He knew the fight was going to be stopped and he only chose to argue about it when he knew the nasty man couldn't hit him any more :yep

How you've got the nerve to take one stance with the VITLAY V Lewis fight and then spout that shit about Frazier after one of the most punishing HW fights ever is absolutely beyond my comprehension, it really is.

:happy. I applaude you with that post.

[OBCboxer]

Mendoza has been brutal in this thread btw.

[PetethePrince]

If truth is told. Foreman looked gassed in the 10th vs., Peralta, and if the fight was 12 or 15 rounds Foreman might have been in trouble.

:patsch Because Foreman's team told him in the 9th round that it was the last round and Foreman gave everything he had to knock him out. His team didn't want him to lose that image of invincibility, and they were going to try testing him and giving him a challenge anyway. Foreman was furious!

[Seamus]

Mendoza has been brutal in this thread btw.

He's made some good points, at least tempering the drooling adoration of Frazier that occurs here. The guy was obviously vulnerable, obviously avoided a couple fighters (and should have avoided others) and got chin checked and failed against some underwhelming opposition. This is total devil's advocate approach but there basis is there for an argument.

[PetethePrince]

He's made some good points, at least tempering the drooling adoration of Frazier that occurs here. The guy was obviously vulnerable, obviously avoided a couple fighters (and should have avoided others) and got chin checked and failed against some underwhelming opposition. This is total devil's advocate approach but there basis is there for an argument.

Failed against underwhelming opposition? Ali and Foreman?

Avoided a couple fighters? In that case, every fighter basically avoids certain fighters.

[CF Gauss]

3 ) Frazier opted out of an invitation to the WBA tournament, and fought for a lesser NY state title.




Why is this relevant? Frazier ended up beating the guys who performed best in that tournament.

[McGrain]

I think have replied to quite a few questions and statments in this thread. Perhaps more replies than anyone else,

That might even be true. But your response to this post:

I've posted video footage where Frazier explains why he isn't keen on taking part in the tournamnet. You've ignored it, as well as my explanations for why he never met Shavers and Liston, although you continue to claim that he ducked them.



The WBU belt? You're now comparing the NYSAC recognition with the WBU recognition? Kidding?

The NYSAC HW title was and is amongst the most prestigious titles in the history of the sport. NYSAC HW champions according to Boxrec:

Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Max Schmeling
Jack Sharkey
Primo Carnera
Max Baer
Jim Braddock
Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Ingemar Johansson
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier

The inaugral title fight was fought by Jack Dempsey. The last, by Joe Frazier. This is perhaps the neatest lineage of the HW title in existance. The NYSAC then backed the WBC and faded. The WBC was for a time the most widely recognised of the world titles. Joe Frazier also held and defended this belt. You also refuse to acknowledge those defences.

Perhaps i'm being hard on you, but it just seems to me that talking about the Kliltschkos makes you gaga in the head. Whether it's Joe Louis doing backflips or the WBU equal to the NYSAC, or Chageav in his fighting prime, it seems you're incapable of objectivity in a thread where their names are maentioned. Tell you what, why don't you proivde a list of the WBU super-middleweight champions to justify your claim.

Which includes challanges to your earlier skipping of my posts as well as a detailed breakedown of why your comparing the WBU and NYSAC titles is pitiful contianed no rebuttles at all:

Mcgrain,

A few questions for you.


You recieved another full response:

It's NOT the New York state title. It's the NYSAC World Heavyweight title. Previous to Frazier-Mathis we had Ali-Foley. After Mathis-Frazier was Frazier-Ramos.

None of these fights were for a state title. They were for the WORLD title, the same one that Louis, Ali and Demspey held.

Were challanged again:

As i've told you twice, the NY state title is not what Joe Frazier fought for. The NYSAC HW title is a WORLD title. The NBA is basically the WBA. NYSAC is slightly older than the NBA, in fact there are those that think that NBA was created in response to the power the NYSAC weilded.

The idea that the WBA title was more prestigious than the NYSAC title is something you have made up in your head. It has basically no basis in fact. In spite of the fact that you've had details pointed out to you concerning the proud history of this title you've continued to deliberately confuse it with the NY State HW title. And you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty.

Why oh why do you refer to the NYSAC title as a state title? Don't yous ee every valid source listing it as a WORLD title fight? Do you think Dempsey-Tunney was for the state title also? New York is just the location of the comition that had sanctioned more heavyweigh title fights than any other organisation in history.

And responded with this, again, ignoring all challanges to your position:

Mcgrain,

I have a few civil minded questions. Can you answer them?

It is pointed out to you that you have stopped answering my questions/dealing with my counterpoints entirely and have resorted to ignoring them and asking more questions and you ignore me and ask the questions again. The 4-8th question you've asked of me without answering any counter-points and I think the 3rd post of mine you have skipped enitrely in terms of actually interacting with it.

You're not interviewing me.

[McGrain]

He's made some good points, at least tempering the drooling adoration of Frazier that occurs here.


For some reason you struggle to accept that the greatest fighters are the most loved.

You now think that mis-truths are reasonable tools for tempering this admiration?

[Flea Man]

Mendoza's responses have been pitiful.

[he grant]

Why take Foreman out of it ? He was the only fighter to stop Frazier. Eight of Frazier's knockdowns were suffered against him. Your point is that he is an overated fighter with a shaky chin and I ask you to tell me who Foreman could not have stopped if styles meshed and George landed on him. If anything Frazier should be praised for having the tremendous heart to keep getting up asking for some more ...

Seamus, who did he avoid that he should have fought ? What underwhelming opposition did he fail against ?

This is not devil's advocate arguing, this is throw any sh-t against a wall, however how unsubstanciated.

[Seamus]

Failed against underwhelming opposition? Ali and Foreman?

Avoided a couple fighters? In that case, every fighter basically avoids certain fighters.

Getting twice floored by a 5-10 caveman style fighter who wouldn't be allowed in a major HW ring today and wobbled by the likes of Ramos among others are reasons enough question the chin. Am I saying my answer is that he had a bad chin? No, not in his case but he obviously could be reached and is no Oliver McCall in that department.

My post was merely stating that Mendoza asked questions in the fashion of critical analysis rather than jock sniffed his way through the topic at hand. Regardless of what answers or conclusions you draw from said inquiry, in these parts his approach is refreshing.

[Seamus]

Seamus, who did he avoid that he should have fought ?

One helpful poster who can come forward if he choses, and who was around and in the know at the time, claims the Frazier camp repeatedly turned down the opportunity at Liston, wanting nothing to do with even an aged version of Sonny. If this claim is true it proves Frazier's people knew early on his vulnerabilities.

Now, all fighters have vulnerabilities. They succeed on their ability to limit these as a factor in the outcomes of their contests. However, I think we can agree or at least agree to suspect Frazier's vulnerability was with bigger, stronger fighters.

[McGrain]

One helpful poster who can come forward if he choses, and who was around and in the know at the time, claims the Frazier camp repeatedly turned down the opportunity at Liston, wanting nothing to do with even an aged version of Sonny. If this claim is true it proves Frazier's people knew early on his vulnerabilities.


This thing about Liston absolutley baffles me. As Mendoza has repeatedly refused to answer me, can you tell me when would have been a good time for them to fight?

[Bokaj]

One helpful poster who can come forward if he choses, and who was around and in the know at the time, claims the Frazier camp repeatedly turned down the opportunity at Liston, wanting nothing to do with even an aged version of Sonny. If this claim is true it proves Frazier's people knew early on his vulnerabilities.

No manager in his right mind would match an up-and-coming HW against Liston during that time. And that was why none of them was matched against him. Frazier's manager only came to same conclusion a the managers of Quarry, Ellis, Mathis, Bonavena etc. Facing Liston was a lose-lose situation.

[he grant]

Seamus, if the caveman you are refering to was Bonavena, then you must know he is the only man who floored Chuvalo as well ... now George is known to have a fairly decent chin. Again, I'm not sure since Bonavena, who also gave Ali hell as well, was 6' ..

Ramos was a murderous puncher , who caught Frazier flush, fresh in round one, practically lifting Frazier off his feet with the shot. Joe rolled with it and came right back firing ... again, why bother with the facts when fabrication is so much easier ...

Who do you feel had a great chin ?

I think Ali did. However, if I used your logic I can say he was dropped by Banks ( a small heavyweight) , badly wobbled by Jones (a light heavyweight) , basically knocked out by 188 pound Henry Cooper, dropped badly by the 204 pound Frazier ( another 5' 10" midget , I guess) , badly hurt by a 208 pound Norton and severly staggered by a 211 pound Shavers ... and this is Ali ...

How's Dempsey ? Suffered many knockdowns on his way to the title by his own admitance against men forgotten by most historians, few being heavyweights, staggered by light heavyweight Carpienter, badly hurt by 200 pound Brennan, knocked silly three times by rank amateur Firpo, decked by the blown up light heavy Tunney and oh, almost forgot, KO'ed in one and left unconcious for minutes by 5' 9", old journeyman Fireman Flynn ... imagine if he fought black fighters like Jeannette, Langford or Wills ?

Let's look at Rocky ... staggered three times and almost stopped by ring immortal Lowery. Staggered by Carmine Vingo. Dropped by 37 year old 196 pound Walcott. Dropped and basically retired by 42 year old, light heavyweight Moore ...

Even a universially acknowledged iron chin like Holyfield was staggered by Qwai in their first fight, out on his feet v.s. Bowe, knocked out by Bowe, rocked to his heels v.s. Cooper and KO'ed by former midleweight Toney ...

I'll put Frazier , who kept getting up v.s. a prime Foreman, up against that list.

[Bokaj]

Seamus, if the caveman you are refering to was Bonavena, then you must know he is the only man who floored Chuvalo as well ... now George is known to have a fairly decent chin. Again, I'm not sure since Bonavena, who also gave Ali hell as well, was 6' ..

Ramos was a murderous puncher , who caught Frazier flush, fresh in round one, practically lifting Frazier off his feet with the shot. Joe rolled with it and came right back firing ... again, why bother with the facts when fabrication is so much easier ...

Who do you feel had a great chin ?

I think Ali did. However, if I used your logic I can say he was dropped by Banks ( a small heavyweight) , badly wobbled by Jones (a light heavyweight) , basically knocked out by 188 pound Henry Cooper, dropped badly by the 204 pound Frazier ( another 5' 10" midget , I guess) , badly hurt by a 208 pound Norton and severly staggered by a 211 pound Shavers ... and this is Ali ...

How's Dempsey ? Suffered many knockdowns on his way to the title by his own admitance against men forgotten by most historians, few being heavyweights, staggered by light heavyweight Carpienter, badly hurt by 200 pound Brennan, knocked silly three times by rank amateur Firpo, decked by the blown up light heavy Tunney and oh, almost forgot, KO'ed in one and left unconcious for minutes by 5' 9", old journeyman Fireman Flynn ... imagine if he fought black fighters like Jeannette, Langford or Wills ?

Let's look at Rocky ... staggered three times and almost stopped by ring immortal Lowery. Staggered by Carmine Vingo. Dropped by 37 year old 196 pound Walcott. Dropped and basically retired by 42 year old, light heavyweight Moore ...

Even a universially acknowledged iron chin like Holyfield was staggered by Qwai in their first fight, out on his feet v.s. Bowe, knocked out by Bowe, rocked to his heels v.s. Cooper and KO'ed by former midleweight Toney ...

I'll put Frazier , who kept getting up v.s. a prime Foreman, up against that list.

Good post.

[he grant]

Bokaj, thank you. For the record, youhave made many posts as of late that I have admired.

[McGrain]

Seamus, if the caveman you are refering to was Bonavena, then you must know he is the only man who floored Chuvalo as well ... now George is known to have a fairly decent chin. Again, I'm not sure since Bonavena, who also gave Ali hell as well, was 6' ..

Ramos was a murderous puncher , who caught Frazier flush, fresh in round one, practically lifting Frazier off his feet with the shot. Joe rolled with it and came right back firing ... again, why bother with the facts when fabrication is so much easier ...

Who do you feel had a great chin ?

I think Ali did. However, if I used your logic I can say he was dropped by Banks ( a small heavyweight) , badly wobbled by Jones (a light heavyweight) , basically knocked out by 188 pound Henry Cooper, dropped badly by the 204 pound Frazier ( another 5' 10" midget , I guess) , badly hurt by a 208 pound Norton and severly staggered by a 211 pound Shavers ... and this is Ali ...

How's Dempsey ? Suffered many knockdowns on his way to the title by his own admitance against men forgotten by most historians, few being heavyweights, staggered by light heavyweight Carpienter, badly hurt by 200 pound Brennan, knocked silly three times by rank amateur Firpo, decked by the blown up light heavy Tunney and oh, almost forgot, KO'ed in one and left unconcious for minutes by 5' 9", old journeyman Fireman Flynn ... imagine if he fought black fighters like Jeannette, Langford or Wills ?

Let's look at Rocky ... staggered three times and almost stopped by ring immortal Lowery. Staggered by Carmine Vingo. Dropped by 37 year old 196 pound Walcott. Dropped and basically retired by 42 year old, light heavyweight Moore ...

Even a universially acknowledged iron chin like Holyfield was staggered by Qwai in their first fight, out on his feet v.s. Bowe, knocked out by Bowe, rocked to his heels v.s. Cooper and KO'ed by former midleweight Toney ...

I'll put Frazier , who kept getting up v.s. a prime Foreman, up against that list.

This thread needed this post.

[PetethePrince]

Getting twice floored by a 5-10 caveman style fighter who wouldn't be allowed in a major HW ring today and wobbled by the likes of Ramos among others are reasons enough question the chin. Am I saying my answer is that he had a bad chin? No, not in his case but he obviously could be reached and is no Oliver McCall in that department.

My post was merely stating that Mendoza asked questions in the fashion of critical analysis rather than jock sniffed his way through the topic at hand. Regardless of what answers or conclusions you draw from said inquiry, in these parts his approach is refreshing.

His jack sniffing is just selective, just like his bias is.

[Bokaj]

Bokaj, thank you. For the record, youhave made many posts as of late that I have admired.

Thank you! Nice Christmas Present :good

[Bokaj]

This thread needed this post.

On a different subject: How about a list of the best ginger fighters?


1. Buchanan











2. Paul Scholes?

[Seamus]

Seamus, if the caveman you are refering to was Bonavena, then you must know he is the only man who floored Chuvalo as well ... now George is known to have a fairly decent chin. Again, I'm not sure since Bonavena, who also gave Ali hell as well, was 6' ..

On video, Bingo looks every bit the 5-10 he's listed on boxrec. I am well aware of his power. I am only stating that it is worth noting when Ellis or an ancient Folley go the distance unscathed and Frazier goes life and death with such a crude fighter. The question is absolutely legitimate; the answer remains up for debate. I myself think Frazier had a decent to good chin that could be dented by larger, powerful foes.

Ramos was purely a ham and egger. I will not take seriously any attempt to make him more than that.

[he grant]

Your point was regarding Joe's chin and mine was that Bonavena had serious power. He may have lost to a prime Ellis, who by the way was a terrific cruiserweight and an old Folley as a young pro but so what? He gave Ali, Frazier and Patterson, three heavyweight champions, all they could handle. That qualifies him to me ..

Ramos was no great fighter but he was a hard punchinh dangerous one. Again we are talking about ability to take punishment ...

Back to Fraziers chin, you are entitled to your opinion but keep in mind he fought half his career with severe vision issues compounded by the fact that he fought the toughest style to survive, never ending aggression, being willing to take to give .. factoring these items in I feel his ability to absorb punishment was quite exceptional but obviously made for a short career.

[Mendoza]

:patsch Because Foreman's team told him in the 9th round that it was the last round and Foreman gave everything he had to knock him out. His team didn't want him to lose that image of invincibility, and they were going to try testing him and giving him a challenge anyway. Foreman was furious!

Foreman was tired going into the 9th. The way the fight was going, he wasn't going to get the KO.

[Mendoza]

Getting twice floored by a 5-10 caveman style fighter who wouldn't be allowed in a major HW ring today and wobbled by the likes of Ramos among others are reasons enough question the chin. Am I saying my answer is that he had a bad chin? No, not in his case but he obviously could be reached and is no Oliver McCall in that department.

My post was merely stating that Mendoza asked questions in the fashion of critical analysis rather than jock sniffed his way through the topic at hand. Regardless of what answers or conclusions you draw from said inquiry, in these parts his approach is refreshing.

Exactly. Like I said it wasn't just Foreman who made Frazier knees do funny things.

[PetethePrince]

Foreman was tired going into the 9th. The way the fight was going, he wasn't going to get the KO.

Yet, he unloaded a lot on Perralta in the 9th. By the 10th round he was clearly more exhausted. This is well documented and comes straight from the horse's mouth. Nobody is saying he was going to KO him but he tried in the 9th round. That was the round he thought was last due to his corner telling him that. Why are you willfully arguing against something that's well documented?

[Bokaj]

Your point was regarding Joe's chin and mine was that Bonavena had serious power.

Yeah. He actually hurt Ali worse than Foreman managed to do. Ali was close to going down in the 9th.

[Mendoza]

Yet, he unloaded a lot on Perralta in the 9th. By the 10th round he was clearly more exhausted. This is well documented and comes straight from the horse's mouth. Nobody is saying he was going to KO him but he tried in the 9th round. That was the round he thought was last due to his corner telling him that. Why are you willfully arguing against something that's well documented?

The reply of Young and Perralta was given to HE grant who asked who didn't Foreman KO. This was my initial reply,. rewind the tape and you'll see it.

I agree that Foreman was tired. The real history of it was cornerman Sandy Saddler suggested Foreman step on the gas pedal. If this was a 12 or 15 round fight, Foreman could have been in trouble.

Foreman had trouble vs good boxer types who had some defense and good durability. He smashed forward moving types, or those with slow feet. Frazier was the former. It did not take Foreman lokf to find and hurt Frazier. Those with top chins would not have gone down so quickly vs. Foreman.

[Mendoza]

Your point was regarding Joe's chin and mine was that Bonavena had serious power. He may have lost to a prime Ellis, who by the way was a terrific cruiserweight and an old Folley as a young pro but so what? He gave Ali, Frazier and Patterson, three heavyweight champions, all they could handle. That qualifies him to me ..

Ramos was no great fighter but he was a hard punchinh dangerous one. Again we are talking about ability to take punishment ...

Back to Fraziers chin, you are entitled to your opinion but keep in mind he fought half his career with severe vision issues compounded by the fact that he fought the toughest style to survive, never ending aggression, being willing to take to give .. factoring these items in I feel his ability to absorb punishment was quite exceptional but obviously made for a short career.

This is where we differ. You think Bonevena had serious power? Did he ever KO a ranked contender?

Bonevena fought the following ranked guys:

Lyle, Patterson, Ali, Frazier, Martin, Folley, Ellis, and Mildenberger. The only one he was close to stopping was Frazier. By Frazier's own admission he was close to losing.

I'd say Bonevena's power on a 1-10 scale was about a 6.5. Ocsar is what I'd call a solid hitter. As Seamus mentioned, Bonevenna wasn't piratically skilled or fast. Yet he's likely the best puncher Frazier beat. And we saw than Bonevenna hit hard enough to stop Frazier. What if Oscar hit a little harder, was faster, or had more skill?

Sometimes in threads I think we tend to lose focus of the topic. In this case its Frazier vs Super heavyweights like Lewis, Klitschko, and Bowe, all of which hit harder than Bonevena, have better skills, much better size and better hand speed.

Another point I like to present is Frazier was often known as a slow starter, and that not going to help him in a fantasy sense vs skilled super heavies, who will welcome the slow start as they win the early rounds and start doing damage.

I'm not saying Frazier can't win here. My thinking is he is not likely, and many here are over rating his chin which is something a smaller guy needs to take out a bigger, more versatile opponent. Frazier had limited versatility. He won't win with a jab, and his right cross and uppercut were under developed. Frazier also was not a cover up and counter guy. Frazier could fight a decent boxer one way, and thats moving forward. Essentialy Frazier was a dynamic oriented left hook specialist who is going to be at a severe height, reach, brute strength, and power in these fantasy match ups.

[he grant]

No, mine was was not who Foreman did not ko. My question was who Foreman lacked the power to KO, big difference. The one time he hit Young all night, in round 7, exhaustd by heat again, Foreman almost took him out with one shot. Again we are talking about ability to take punishment.

You can choose to rank Oscar's power where you find convinient but the facts are he dropped Frazier, badly rocked Ali and dropped Chuvalo with a clean , solid shot. In additon, Joe came back to cleanly defeat him, taking his best shots without ever again buckling over the following 23 rounds the men fought.

I think you are co-mingling positions regarding a a fighter's power with their ability to connect in attempts to make a point. In additon, I again disagree with you about Bonavena. I think he would have been a nightmare for Wlad and he hit just as hard as Vitali or Bowe.

I agree this is all about Joe as a superheavyweight but the point made as to why he could not compete by some here is his inability to take punishment which is so off it is absurd. Frazier was one of the toughest men to ever lace on the gloves.

Head to head I say he destroys Wlad who had zero chin and lacks stamina if forced to fight which he would have to do v.s. Frazier. We are clearly seeing Vitali is both innacurate with his right and also can barely crack an egg. The fact that he has all those KO's tells me more about his opponents that his power. While Vitali has a good chin his own stamina is so-so and his skin tissue paper. He puffs up and bleeds quite easily . Joe would beat both Klit Brothers.

Bowe was another that lacked stamina and a great chin. While a prime Bowe might be a far more dangerous challange early than the Klits, I still favor Joe .

The only superheavy I would favor was Lennox simply because his overall skill set was superior to either Klitschko and his discipline and dedication surpassed that of Bowe. That being said he was no lock either.

I find the the superheavyweights as a whole and the Klitscho's in gereral as vastly overated by some. I say this respecting the good both brothers do bring to the game. However, I do not view them as some new level. They have skill sets that would allow them to defeat many but far from all. As always, styles would dictate.

[ironchamp]

I would go with 2-2 or even 3-1.

Same here.

I think he definitely loses to Lennox Lewis.

But his athleticism, speed and talent may see him to victory against Vitali, Wlad and Bowe.

[Briscoe]

What have we here, a philly based fighter in Briscoe sticking up for Smokine Joe? As we know, local based favorites seldom admit the downside of their stable mates career. Hint of sarcasm!

Here are my points. You are free to agree or disagree with them.

1 ) Frazier never beat a good puncher. Quarry is likely the best puncher he defeated. Frazier's resume aside from Foreman who smashed him with ease, is void of punchers.

2 ) Frazier chin vs big puncher is suspect, and should be taken into consideration in fantasy match ups vs big punchers. Furthermore his attacking oriented style plays right into the hands of good punchers, Evidence is he was down 11 times in a 37 pro fight career, and down and stunned by lesser punchers.

3 ) Frazier opted out of an invitation to the WBA tournament, and fought for a lesser NY state title.

4 ) Frazier is 1-4 vs the best fighters he faced, with 3 KO defeats.

5 ) Two of Frazier title fights as lineal champion vs Stander and Daniels were very poor selections....in fact neither man would be in the top ten today in what some here consider a weak era of heavyweight boxing.

I'll bet you a chesestake and pretzel with mustard that ALL of the above points by me are valid. You can attempt to diffuse the the points and spin off into tangents, but that is not what I am here to say. Accept the truth, or don't. I am sorry if you are upset.

I am willing learn from any conversation, but when my points are obviously skipped for agenda ridden reasons on the internet, I have a small character fault of sharpening my language to the independent minded readers to get that point across.

I'm not upset, I'm annoyed with how you decided to literally ignore everything I've already said. I'm not a Philly based fan, I'm not even from Philadelphia. Briscoe was a great fighter, just like Frazier was. Pure coincidence I like two fighters from the same town. I will never pledge any sort of local or nationalist sentiment towards a fighter. It doesn't matter where you come from when you get in the ring.

I've already went over almost all the points you have restated in the above quotes. So I'll only go over one, I'm sick of wasting my time with you if you're not going to read what I type in response to what you say. If you're ever curious just look earlier in this thread.

However, this is your worst point. The part where you say how you think the titles Frazier held should be considered. You are not an overriding authority in this situation here. The NY title was recognized in the past to denote champions like Jack Dempsey. Joe just turned out to be the last man to hold it because of the rise of the alpha organizations in the WBC and the WBA. Ali had officially retired February 1, 1970 to allow Joe Frazier to become the recognized undisputed world heavyweight champion after he had defeated Jimmy Ellis. When Frazier beat Ellis he unified the vacant WBC, Ellis' WBA title, and his own NY title on Feb 16, 1970. The Ring even awarded Frazier their Ring belt after he unified that. What belt did Ali have? NONE! HE WAS RETIRED! So as much as you say Frazier didn't become official recognized heavyweight until he beat Ali, you're wrong. He became official after beating Jimmy Ellis. Here it annoys me how you say that it's not official till after Ali, says you? There's no official source, just you saying it. Produce some sort of information that Frazier became official heavyweight champ after beating Ali instead of Ellis and I'll back off. When Joe beat Ali he only proved that he was capable of defeating the last heavyweight champion before him. Even better Ali was in reasonable age to fight Joe and allow this sort of superfight to happen. It's silly that I even have to explain something like this.

[PetethePrince]

The reply of Young and Perralta was given to HE grant who asked who didn't Foreman KO. This was my initial reply,. rewind the tape and you'll see it.

I agree that Foreman was tired. The real history of it was cornerman Sandy Saddler suggested Foreman step on the gas pedal. If this was a 12 or 15 round fight, Foreman could have been in trouble.

Foreman had trouble vs good boxer types who had some defense and good durability. He smashed forward moving types, or those with slow feet. Frazier was the former. It did not take Foreman lokf to find and hurt Frazier. Those with top chins would not have gone down so quickly vs. Foreman.

Peralta was slipper. Everyone has trouble with someone, stylistically. I can give you dozens of examples with every other fighter but this would be a waste of time. Your comment on Foreman being exhausted in the 10th round as a criticism toward his stamina is a big manipulation of the facts to prove your point. That is why I responded to that. And here you agree Saddler told him to step on the gas because it was the "Last round" but it wasn't. Hence the exhausted 10th round Foreman.

[Fighting Weight]

Exactly. Like I said it wasn't just Foreman who made Frazier knees do funny things.

And it wasn't just Sanders that made VITLAYS knees do funny things either, Lewis achieved that mighty feat too, as did feather fist Byrd, but you carry on clinging to your one humble point about how great VITLAY is, despite the fact he's fought 2 decent fighters and lost twice :good

I just love the fact that you're disrespecting Frazier of all people when it comes to heart, and in the same breath bigging up the Robobum brothers, as per fucking usual. Keep it up champ, and I'll keep mocking you.

[Fighting Weight]

:happy. I applaude you with that post.

Thanks, it's always nice to know that rational people post here too. :good

[he grant]

Vitali has an iron chin. The rocked to his knees stuff is crap.

Sanders hit him with his best shot flush, coming in , in round one when he was at his strongest and Vitali took it well. It was the sort of shot that would have either serious dropped and hurt or flattened most great fighters, no doubt. Vitali also took bombs from Lewis and never wobbled, even when he was blinded and did not see them coming. As far as Byrd , please stop.

[dezbeast]

Vitali has an iron chin. The rocked to his knees stuff is crap.

Sanders hit him with his best shot flush, coming in , in round one when he was at his strongest and Vitali took it well. It was the sort of shot that would have either serious dropped and hurt or flattened most great fighters, no doubt. Vitali also took bombs from Lewis and never wobbled, even when he was blinded and did not see them coming. As far as Byrd , please stop.

My thoughts exactly.

[PetethePrince]

Vitali has an iron chin. The rocked to his knees stuff is crap.

Sanders hit him with his best shot flush, coming in , in round one when he was at his strongest and Vitali took it well. It was the sort of shot that would have either serious dropped and hurt or flattened most great fighters, no doubt. Vitali also took bombs from Lewis and never wobbled, even when he was blinded and did not see them coming. As far as Byrd , please stop.

Vitali only really fought two punchers in Sanders and Lewis. I don't really think Sanders is as highly regarded as a puncher as others do (Particularly Vitali fans). Each time he faced them he was never downed but was seriously hurt. Actually, Sanders did drop him but that's another thing. Too much emphasis on determining the quality of someone's chin is based on dropping or downing someone. When a fighter is clearly hurt, they are clearly vulnerable and clearly dentable. Vitali is all of these things. Flash Knock-downing something or dropping them doesn't mean half as much, unless of course they are vividly hurt. When Vitali holds for life for the rest of a round after a Lewis uppercut and walks Lewis down to the other side. Or gets hit flushed and tries running to the other side of the ring. He is hurt. He has a good chin, but it's definitely overrated. His chin isn't iron, and his brother doesn't have the worst chin ever. His brother chin is very bad, and his chin happens to be pretty good. It hasn't been tested enough for me to think it's iron either.

Yes, Peter is a puncher too. But he's really far too limited to get at Vitali anyway.

[Seamus]

Vitali only really fought two punchers in Sanders and Lewis.

Peters, Arreola, Hide... even Mahone and Williams were all punchers.

And if we are going to be truthful, every top-30 heavyweight punches hard enough to take out any man.

[he grant]

Look Sanders was a pretty decent puncher as long as his stamina lasted ... Lewis goes without saying , a huge puncher.

[PetethePrince]

Peters, Arreola, Hide... even Mahone and Williams were all punchers.

And if we are going to be truthful, every top-30 heavyweight punches hard enough to take out any man.

Mentioned Peters - Arreola is not a big power puncher. In fact, Arreola doesn't even refer to himself as a power puncher. He was a former Light Heavyweight that just got fat. He says he's a "combination puncher, but not a power puncher guy." Okay, I missed Hide and Mahone. I won't even go into them as fighters. I don't really consider Williams to be that big of a puncher. Let's just say he's not the calibre of power of a guy like Bonavena that Mendoza doesn't even acknowledge as a good power guy.