Are these the top 5 fighters since Ray Leonard ?

[Bill Butcher]

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.
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In order of age.....

Julio Cesar Chavez
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones jr
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquiao

:think

[Flea Man]

Since Leonard beat Hagler?

No. Hopkins over Floyd.

[Sweet Pea]

Yeah, I'd probably take Hopkins over Floyd as well.

[Bill Butcher]

^
What if Floyd beats Pacquiao decisively ?

Will he need a Shane Mosely to top B-Hop or is Pac enough ?

[Flea Man]

^
What if Floyd beats Pacquiao decisively ?

Will he need a Shane Mosely to top B-Hop or is Pac enough ?

If he beats Pac.....it depends what Hop does with the rest of his career. Though yes, I'd think that would be enough.

[Abdullah]

Hopkins over Chavez. Chavez was great but also greatly overrated. He was beaten clearly by Whitaker. He would've lost to Taylor had Richard ''I stopped the fight'' Steele not stopped it with 2 seconds remaining. Randall beat him and probably should've gotten the victory in the rematch.

[Addie]

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Julio Cesar Chavez
4. Roy Jones Jr
5. Bernard Hopkins

[Duodenum]

^
What if Floyd beats Pacquiao decisively ?

Will he need a Shane Mosely to top B-Hop or is Pac enough ?Hopkins is clearly top four. I think Floyd does need both Pac and a Mosely to have a chance at locking up a top five berth. Being smaller, Pac could probably clinch one with PBF alone. As things stand now, I'd probably leave that fifth spot blank with the designation, "To be determined."

[Tin_Ribs]

Hopkins over Chavez. Chavez was great but also greatly overrated. He was beaten clearly by Whitaker. He would've lost to Taylor had Richard ''I stopped the fight'' Steele not stopped it with 2 seconds remaining. Randall beat him and probably should've gotten the victory in the rematch.


He also beat LaPorte, Lockridge, Rosario, Camacho, Haugen, Martinez, Ramirez, Limon, Castillo and Mayweather.

It's not really up for discussion.

[Flea Man]

Hopkins over Chavez. Chavez was great but also greatly overrated. He was beaten clearly by Whitaker. He would've lost to Taylor had Richard ''I stopped the fight'' Steele not stopped it with 2 seconds remaining. Randall beat him and probably should've gotten the victory in the rematch.
Your reasoning reeks of 'boxrec warrior'

regardless, Chavez is still more accomplished than Floyd. Compare the two, if purely for my amusement.

[Del Boy]

Oscar De La Hoya or Bernard Hopkins over Floyd

[PunchOut]

the list is fine for me

Chavez
Pea
Pacquiao

RJJ
Money

[Minotauro]

As others have said I would put Hopkins over Floyd otherwise I'd agree with the list.

[la-califa]

Others for consideration: Evander Holyfield, Joe Calzaghe, Marco A. Barrera, Ricardo Lopez.Shane Mosley.

[GDG]

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.
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In order of age.....

Julio Cesar Chavez
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones jr
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquiao

:think


Personally I'd agree, but wouldn't be unhappy seeing Hopkins, Holyfield or even Lewis on someones list.

[Bill Butcher]

Oscar De La Hoya or Bernard Hopkins over Floyd

Mayweather ranks higher than both but at least Hopkins is close, DLH is not on Mayweather`s level.

[Bill Butcher]

Others for consideration: Evander Holyfield, Joe Calzaghe, Marco A. Barrera, Ricardo Lopez.Shane Mosley.

Morales is every bit as deserving as any of those guys, more so IMO but for the sake of a never ending debate.... I`ll say, AS deserving.

[Mantequilla]

mayweather making it before Hagler or Hearns?.I don't agree with that at all.

[PowerPuncher]

P4p

jones
whitaker
tyson
mayweather
bhops

[Bill Butcher]

mayweather making it before Hagler or Hearns?.I don't agree with that at all.

Marv & Tommy were FROM the Leonard era, I just named Leonard in the thread title since he ranks higher than those 2 on most lists :good

[Mantequilla]

When does the Leonard era stop for you?.Are we basically just excluding the eighties here?.that would make sense, though not sure i would have Chavez so high anymore if so.

[redrooster]

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.
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In order of age.....

Julio Cesar Chavez
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones jr
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquiao

:think


You mean since Hagler retired

Roy Jones
Julian Jackson
Norris
Camacho
Pernell

[redrooster]

Chavez is a good fighter but too many fill ins on his reocrd. I go for quality over quantity but dont approve when there is too little quantity as in the case of Sugar Ray Leonard

The butt in the second Randall fight was unfortunate. i was anxious to see whether Julio could pull it out on his own.

Hopkins might make a top eight if not for the loss to Jones

Pac another good fighter,, fast hands. But I'll wait until he retires before making judgement

[Addie]

You mean since Hagler retired

Roy Jones
Julian Jackson
Norris
Camacho
Pernell

:lol:

[MrMarvel]

Hopkins over Chavez. Chavez was great but also greatly overrated. He was beaten clearly by Whitaker. He would've lost to Taylor had Richard ''I stopped the fight'' Steele not stopped it with 2 seconds remaining. Randall beat him and probably should've gotten the victory in the rematch.

Chavez overrated?

Chavez beat the shit out of Taylor and stopped him. He ruined Taylor he beat him so badly. Chavez lost a close fight to an all-time great Whitaker (they called it a draw, but he really lost) and he lost to a peaking and very talented Franklie Randall. But these fights were late in Chavez's
career. He was bound slow down sometime. All fighters do.

Hopkins is a great fighter, too.

[MrMarvel]

Marv & Tommy were FROM the Leonard era, I just named Leonard in the thread title since he ranks higher than those 2 on most lists :good

If this is true it is for no good reason. Hagler's accomplishments are much more impressive and Hagler was actually a dominant champion, whereas Leonard wasn't. Hagler beat Leonard. Hearns outboxed Leonard cleaning before tiring and he whipped Leonard in the rematch, but was robbed (like Hagler).

[redrooster]

:lol:

It's the SPEED that makes 4 of the top five. Of course Jackson is there because of his win over TNT Norris

Norris of course defeated Sugar Ray Leonard in a landlisde and none but he could have even attempted it. To outspeed, to take away his heart early in the fight are proofs of his superiority. And it is because he was superior that TNT Norris is in the Hall of fame

While Camacho went unbeaten for the ENTIRE decade, winning three championships in that time.

There men were superior fighters and it is because they are superior that they like Norris are in my top five

Whitaker, another stellar southpaw second only to Camacho in skill and speed

[Robbi]

You mean since Hagler retired

Roy Jones
Julian Jackson
Norris
Camacho
Pernell

:blood

[Addie]

It's the SPEED that makes 4 of the top five. Of course Jackson is there because of his win over TNT Norris

Norris of course defeated Sugar Ray Leonard in a landlisde and none but he could have even attempted it. To outspeed, to take away his heart early in the fight are proofs of his superiority. And it is because he was superior that TNT Norris is in the Hall of fame

While Camacho went unbeaten for the ENTIRE decade, winning three championships in that time.

There men were superior fighters and it is because they are superior

Whitaker, another stellar southpaw second only to Camacho in skill and speed

:lol: More...more.

[Robbi]

It's the SPEED that makes 4 of the top five. Of course Jackson is there because of his win over TNT Norris

Norris of course defeated Sugar Ray Leonard in a landlisde and none but he could have even attempted it. To outspeed, to take away his heart early in the fight are proofs of his superiority. And it is because he was superior that TNT Norris is in the Hall of fame

While Camacho went unbeaten for the ENTIRE decade, winning three championships in that time.

There men were superior fighters and it is because they are superior that they like Norris are in my top five

Whitaker, another stellar southpaw second only to Camacho in skill and speed

Comedian. :nut

[redrooster]

:lol: More...more.


Why settle for inferiority when you can have superior quality?

Whitaker over Chavez
Norris over Leonard
Jones over Hopkins
Jackson over Norris

with the top fighter being the fighter of the 80s, Hagler, winner of KO magazine's p4p #1 award 4 straight years.

Follow that up with Roy Jones' p4p award 6 times. Or is it 7? Maybe Powerpuncher knows

[Robbi]

with the top fighter being the fighter of the 80s, Hagler, winner of KO magazine's p4p #1 award 4 straight years.

KO voted Leonard as their fighter of the 80's. Funny that, huh. :lol:

[redrooster]

KO voted Leonard as their fighter of the 80's. Funny that, huh. :lol:

The problem though is he dont win the award of excellence like Hagler or Jones. Ray COULD have been fighter of the 80s with an impressive win over young Micheal Nunn following the kalambay fight. Apparantly, Ray wasnt very eager to put the young upstart in his place, so he doesnt get the award.

[bodhi]

Whitaker
Pacquiao
Chavez
Hopkins
Jones

[IntentionalButt]

^
What if Floyd beats Pacquiao decisively ?

Will he need a Shane Mosely to top B-Hop or is Pac enough ?

To put himself ahead with enough distance to make the debate academic, yes he would need Mosley.

[Robbi]

The problem though is he dont win the award of excellence like Hagler or Jones. Ray COULD have been fighter of the 80s with an impressive win over young Micheal Nunn following the kalambay fight. Apparantly, Ray wasnt very eager to put the young upstart in his place, so he doesnt get the award.

Sugar Ray Leonard would win the majority of votes on the fighter of the 80's from a group of knowledgeable boxing fans. No dispute there.

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by Robbi
Sugar Ray Leonard would win the majority of votes on the fighter of the 80's from a group of knowledgeable boxing fans. No dispute there.
If you believe Leonard defeated Hagler. If you are one of the people that feel Hagler really won that fight, it may be hard for you feel that Leonard is the best from the 80's.

I haven't watched Leonard/Hagler in well over a decade, I'd bet. The last time I scored it 7-5 for Leonard. It is almost a rule in my head that Leonard is the 80's best. I've begun to 2nd guess that pick in the last several years. Michael Spinks is a top 10 all time great at light heavyweight, and his first performance against Holmes was truly special. It is a far bigger deal than Jones defeating Ruiz.

[rekcutnevets]

I would say Whitaker, Chavez, Jones, Holyfield, and Hopkins if asked today. Pac and Floyd still have a shot, with a slim chance going to the still active Mosley.

[anarci]

Hopkins over Chavez. Chavez was great but also greatly overrated. He was beaten clearly by Whitaker. He would've lost to Taylor had Richard ''I stopped the fight'' Steele not stopped it with 2 seconds remaining. Randall beat him and probably should've gotten the victory in the rematch. GTFOH! How you gonna bring Randall into this Chavez was already clearly on the down side.
He wasnt overrated hes become Underrated. Bottom Line Taylor wouldnt have been stopped if he could have held up under Chavez punishing shots, People act like Chavez wasnt doing any thing during the fight,like if he just landed some Lucky punch.
IN my opinion Whittaker did deserve the fight but Chavez was moving up and only came in at 142 against a Welter. Chavez was also fading already, I would have loved to see that fight at 135 or even a couple years before at 140. Maybe Whittaker would have outpointed him again,but im not positive on that one either. I think at 135 that could have gone either way.

Anyways I agree with Bill Butcher the fighters you mentioned Were right on but i agree you can make an argument for Hopkins over Mayweather. If Mayweather beats Pac though(i think he will) Mayweathers stock rises even higher.

[ripcity]

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.
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In order of age.....

Julio Cesar Chavez
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones jr
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquiao

:think

Ray Leonard fought from 1977-1997. However he retired and made a few combacks. his first career was 1977-1982. He made a one fight comeback in 1984. After that he fought from 1987-1989 he did not fight in 1990 but did fight in 1991. He would have a last fight in 1997. My question is when you say since Ray Leonard from which point in his career do you mean? His debut in 1977? His final fight in 1997? After 1989 when he was still compitive against his opostion after 1991 when it was clear he was no longer world class?

[Addie]

Ray Leonard fought from 1977-1997. However he retired and made a few combacks. his first career was 1977-1982. He made a one fight comeback in 1984. After that he fought from 1987-1989 he did not fight in 1990 but did fight in 1991. He would have a last fight in 1997. My question is when you say since Ray Leonard from which point in his career do you mean? His debut in 1977? His final fight in 1997? After 1989 when he was still compitive against his opostion after 1991 when it was clear he was no longer world class?


...Are you for real? You know exactly what he means. :-((

[ripcity]

...Are you for real? You know exactly what he means. :-((
I'm sorry I don't have your skills when it comes to mind-reading. I will try to to hone my skills in this matter.

[anarci]

Hey I must be a mind reader too cause i know what hes talking about.

My telepathy tells me that the threadmaker means since Leonards prime which is roughly around 25 years.

[redrooster]

Sugar Ray Leonard would win the majority of votes on the fighter of the 80's from a group of knowledgeable boxing fans. No dispute there.

Really?

Like the Exorcist once said, "there are no experts"

How you become an expert?

anyone can call themselves an expert or a knowledgable fan but can they prove they are?

years ago I ran into a man who didnt take kindly to my point of view and argued vehemently over something I said about Leonard. he got steamed as tho I said something wrong - as tho HE were an expert. But I quickly showed him the error os his ways and he soon learned his rightful place.

After putting him on the spot, he said less and less. When further pressed, the truth finally came to the survace and in a last ditch effor to save face in front of the others, fianally admitted "Well I dont really follow boxing" :oops:

people like that frequently pop up

I dont even watch boxing anymore. The sport now bores me but still I'll always have a high boxing IQ as Ali had. There are a lot of people who follow the sport, watching hours and hours but they always have a low boxing IQ.

What can I say, it's something you're born with. :smoke

You can follow boxing all your life watching endless footage and never get it right like I have

[ripcity]

Hey I must be a mind reader too cause i know what hes talking about.

My telepathy tells me that the threadmaker means since Leonards prime which is roughly around 25 years.
Apearently.

[EleventhHour]

Lose PBF for Hopkins, and maaaaaaybe lose Chavez for Marco Antonio Barrera. Maybe.

[Bill Butcher]

Whitaker, another stellar southpaw second only to Camacho in skill and speed

:nut

[Bill Butcher]

Ray Leonard fought from 1977-1997. However he retired and made a few combacks. his first career was 1977-1982. He made a one fight comeback in 1984. After that he fought from 1987-1989 he did not fight in 1990 but did fight in 1991. He would have a last fight in 1997. My question is when you say since Ray Leonard from which point in his career do you mean? His debut in 1977? His final fight in 1997? After 1989 when he was still compitive against his opostion after 1991 when it was clear he was no longer world class?

From the last time he looked great vs a credible opponent which was vs Hagler in 87 probably.

[Bill Butcher]

Lose PBF for Hopkins, and maaaaaaybe lose Chavez for Marco Antonio Barrera. Maybe.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks for that, cheers mate, comedy gold :good

That maaaaaaaybe the best thing Ive heard this week.

[lolb]

Whitaker, another stellar southpaw second only to Camacho in skill and speed


:yikes :patsch

[ripcity]

From the last time he looked great vs a credible opponent which was vs Hagler in 87 probably.
Thank you Bill.
Whitaker, Mayweather and Jones and are solidly on the list. That leaves 2 open spots.
([Only registered and activated users can see links])

([Only registered and activated users can see links])

([Only registered and activated users can see links]) ,

[Popkins]

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.
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In order of age.....

Julio Cesar Chavez
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones jr
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquiao

:think


Are you seriously telling me you rank Mayweather higher than Holyfield pound-for-pound? Come on Bill, that can't be justified and you know it.

My top 5 would be:

Whitaker
Pacquiao
Jones
Holyfield
Chavez

(6.Hopkins, 7.Mayweeather)

PS: what is the point of putting them in order of age? If that is your ranking of them then just say so, you are the man who detests anonymous polls because it allows people to disown their opinions!

[Bill Butcher]

Are you seriously telling me you rank Mayweather higher than Holyfield pound-for-pound? Come on Bill, that can't be justified and you know it.

My top 5 would be:

Whitaker
Pacquiao
Jones
Holyfield
Chavez

(6.Hopkins, 7.Mayweeather)

PS: what is the point of putting them in order of age? If that is your ranking of them then just say so, you are the man who detests anonymous polls because it allows people to disown their opinions!

I did the age thing because I find it too difficult to put them in any order (tho JCC & Pea would at this point be 1 & 2) + 2 of those names, FMJ & Pac still have time to sway me one way or another.... Roy might be last on my list, might be, hard call.
Ask me again on march 14th & my list might have a more solid look but those are my top 5 for sure (just be thankful I dont have Calzaghe in there ;))

Ps. Ive only ever seen one CW Holyfield fight vs Qawi (1st fight, very good fight actually) & he was a very good HW at his best but not great.
I wouldnt argue with his inclusion, he is a true legend & ATG.

[Bill Butcher]

Popkins, is it seriously gonna take til march 13th for you to realise that you underrate the excellent ability of Floyd Mayweather ? :think

[Flea Man]

Are you seriously telling me you rank Mayweather higher than Holyfield pound-for-pound? Come on Bill, that can't be justified and you know it.

My top 5 would be:

Whitaker
Pacquiao
Jones
Holyfield
Chavez

(6.Hopkins, 7.Mayweeather)

PS: what is the point of putting them in order of age? If that is your ranking of them then just say so, you are the man who detests anonymous polls because it allows people to disown their opinions!

Whitaker
Pacquiao
Jones
Holyfield
Chavez

(6.Hopkins, 7.Mayweeather)

agree with this:good

[Flea Man]

Popkins, is it seriously gonna take til march 13th for you to realise that you underrate the excellent ability of Floyd Mayweather ? :think

You can only go by what you've seen; I've seen Floyd look impressive and consistent against a range of opponents, but he has done NOTHING to prove he should be above either Hopkins or Holy (who incredibly I forgot to mention so fair play to Popkins:good)

Even a win against Pac will not make it clear cut IMO; I think both Pac and Floyd are fighters that are best left alone (in terms of evaluating their 'ATG' status) until they are retired:good

[Ezzard]

I'd go for (in no order)...

Chavez
Whittaker
Pacquaio
Barrera
Hopkins

[China_hand_Joe]

.
.
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In order of age.....

Julio Cesar Chavez
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones jr
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquiao

:think


Swap Calzaghe for Chavez and it is a very solid top 5.

I don't thing Chavez has anything over him.

[Popkins]

Popkins, is it seriously gonna take til march 13th for you to realise that you underrate the excellent ability of Floyd Mayweather ? :think

Bill, is it seriously gonna take you till Doomsday to realize that ability comes way behind resume when making lists of greatness? It matters not a jot that Floyd has niftier skills than many other fighters, you can't just place him above other fighters who went to the well again and again and again because you like the look of Floyd more. His resume is garbage when placed against other all-time greats, and his resume is rather feeble when placed against other fighters from the last quarter-century. This should not and simply cannot be ignored by any serious boxing fan because he has a neat shoulder roll, a big mouth and a zero.

A comprehensive win over the merely good Chico Corrales, a loss and a dull/unimpressive points win in 2 fights with the good-to-very-good Castillo, a dull and unconvincing SD over a years past-prime Oscar, a 10-round stoppage of Ricky Hatton at a weight Hatton was not at his best at, a points win over Zab Judah, and a pointless points win over an overweight JM Marquez.

I don't know how anyone can rate this rap sheet any higher than I do. It just isn't very good no matter how you look at it. I'll rank Floyd higher once he fights and beats Pacquiao and Mosley. Till then, he doesn't deserve to be in the top 5 for this thread. The other guys mentioned in this thread have just done more with their ability.

[Popkins]

I did the age thing because I find it too difficult to put them in any order (tho JCC & Pea would at this point be 1 & 2) + 2 of those names, FMJ & Pac still have time to sway me one way or another.... Roy might be last on my list, might be, hard call.
Ask me again on march 14th & my list might have a more solid look but those are my top 5 for sure (just be thankful I dont have Calzaghe in there ;))

Ps. Ive only ever seen one CW Holyfield fight vs Qawi (1st fight, very good fight actually) & he was a very good HW at his best but not great.
I wouldnt argue with his inclusion, he is a true legend & ATG.

:lol: Joe C.

I'm not even going to touch your placing of Chavez at #1 and Pea at #2 because I have engaged you on this matter before, and you don't even try to justify it, you know there's no argument for having Chavez higher, it's purely because you like him more.

Holyfield: Beat the number 1 cruiserweight in the world in only his 13th pro contest (that number might be a little out, but it is definitely round about that), cleaned up the division to become the greatest cruiser ever (still is to this day), despite his size he managed to have a long and successful heavyweight career, posting wins over Bowe (a stunning achievement for a former cruiser), Tyson (twice mastered a resurgent beast), Moorer, Mercer, Rahman, and competed well while past-prime against a prime and dominant Lennox Lewis (Holy's performance in their 2nd fight is often unfairly overlooked and forgotten).

If that doesn't put Mayweather's achievements in the shade to any sane boxing fan, I don't know what does.

[Bill Butcher]

:lol: Joe C.

I'm not even going to touch your placing of Chavez at #1 and Pea at #2 because I have engaged you on this matter before, and you don't even try to justify it, you know there's no argument for having Chavez higher, it's purely because you like him more.

Holyfield: Beat the number 1 cruiserweight in the world in only his 13th pro contest (that number might be a little out, but it is definitely round about that), cleaned up the division to become the greatest cruiser ever (still is to this day), despite his size he managed to have a long and successful heavyweight career, posting wins over Bowe (a stunning achievement for a former cruiser), Tyson (twice mastered a resurgent beast), Moorer, Mercer, Rahman, and competed well while past-prime against a prime and dominant Lennox Lewis (Holy's performance in their 2nd fight is often unfairly overlooked and forgotten).

If that doesn't put Mayweather's achievements in the shade to any sane boxing fan, I don't know what does.

I never put Chavez at 1 & Pea at 2 (someone`s name had to go 1st since I couldnt decide), I struggle between the 2 - actually leaning towards Whitaker more than JCC recently on the strength of their H2H & showings vs DLH + I have been on a Sweet Pea thing lately, watching all his fights, didnt want to put a definite place in case I changed my mind tho but those 2 are the best right now.... yes... better than Pac.

Ps. Im fine with Holyfield on any list, I said that before :good

[Popkins]

I never put Chavez at 1 & Pea at 2 (someone`s name had to go 1st since I couldnt decide), I struggle between the 2 - actually leaning towards Whitaker more than JCC recently on the strength of their H2H & showings vs DLH + I have been on a Sweet Pea thing lately, watching all his fights, didnt want to put a definite place in case I changed my mind tho but those 2 are the best right now.... yes... better than Pac.

Ps. Im fine with Holyfield on any list, I said that before :good

Whitaker is streets ahead of both Chavez and Pac.

The gap between Chavez and Pac can no longer be a big one. Flyweight to welterweight, knocking out the #1 lww and the #1 or #2 ww in his last 2 fights, those are solid gold achievements and timelessly brilliant performances no matter your personal taste for Pacquiao. Achievement wise, he already has the better of Chavez, as he is one of the greatest weight-jumpers ever. The only reason for still having JCC higher is his superior ability - but even that gap is closing over time.

You may be fine with having Holy in there, but what is your view of this statement:

Having Mayweather over Holyfield is unjustifiable.

[Bill Butcher]

Whitaker is streets ahead of both Chavez and Pac.

The gap between Chavez and Pac can no longer be a big one. Flyweight to welterweight, knocking out the #1 lww and the #1 or #2 ww in his last 2 fights, those are solid gold achievements and timelessly brilliant performances no matter your personal taste for Pacquiao. Achievement wise, he already has the better of Chavez, as he is one of the greatest weight-jumpers ever. The only reason for still having JCC higher is his superior ability - but even that gap is closing over time.

You may be fine with having Holy in there, but what is your view of this statement:

Having Mayweather over Holyfield is unjustifiable .

My statement to that is.... please stop talking wet.... the word unjustifiable is unjustifiable in this case.

Also, FMJ is also a great `weight jumper,` the very thing that has enabled Pacquiao in your mind to be the best fighter since Whitaker (at least Floyd established ATGness at 130, Pac`s name will never be mentioned at ANY weight he has fought at, this MUST be taken into account), Mayweather is a 5 weight legit world champion, has beaten very good fighters & has only been pushed hard twice in 40 fights (of which the DLH fight was a clear win but still difficult for 8 rds)... his skills are superior to Holyfield`s, please dont dispute this.... he is one of the best defensive boxers ever, one of the most accurate & % boxers ever too.

You might not like him & you will no doubt hate him even more after he beats Pacquiao but give credit where credit is due, he has achieved a lot in boxing & is the best pure boxer since Whitaker, you surely must know this shit without me telling you.

:good

[Addie]

My statement to that is.... please stop talking wet.

Also, FMJ is also a great `weight jumper,` the very thing that has enabled Pacquiao in your mind to be the best figter since Whitaker (at least Floyd established ATGness at 130, Pac`s name will never be mentioned at ANY weight he has fought at, this MUST be taken into account), Mayweather is a 5 weight legit world champion, has beaten very good fighters & has only been pushed hard twice in 40 fights... his skills are superior to Holyfield`s, please dont dispute this.... he is one of the best defensive boxers ever, one of the most accurate & % boxers ever too.

You might not like him & you will no doubt hate him even more after he beats Pacquiao but give credit where credit is due, he has achieved a lot in boxing & is the best pure boxer since Whitaker, you surely must know this shit without me telling you.

:good

Holyfield fought better fighters and beat better fighters. End of story matey. :good

[Popkins]

Holyfield fought better fighters and beat better fighters. End of story matey. :good

I was going to launch into a lengthy retort, but thanks mate, you have saved me the bother!

[Bill Butcher]

Holyfield fought better fighters and beat better fighters. End of story matey. :good

He also lost to fighters he shouldnt have..... listen, I have 0 probs with anyone having Holy in a list that doesnt include FMJ but its not `unjustifiable` to have Floyd there & not have Holyfield, most people will have Mayweather there or thereabouts, THAT is my point.

I dont understand how Pac can be a few places over Holyfield but its blasphemy to have Mayweather over Holyfield.... most agree that its between Floyd & Pac for the fighter of the era so thats not even a closed book yet, thats what the fight on march is for, to see who is the best, a bit like it was when JCC fought Pea, the winner will be viewed by the majority as the best of an era..... then will Floyd pop up into no2 on Popkins list where Pac is now ?.... I wont hold my breath.

[Popkins]

My statement to that is.... please stop talking wet.... the word unjustifiable is unjustifiable in this case.

Also, FMJ is also a great `weight jumper,` the very thing that has enabled Pacquiao in your mind to be the best fighter since Whitaker (at least Floyd established ATGness at 130, Pac`s name will never be mentioned at ANY weight he has fought at, this MUST be taken into account), Mayweather is a 5 weight legit world champion, has beaten very good fighters & has only been pushed hard twice in 40 fights (of which the DLH fight was a clear win but still difficult for 8 rds)... his skills are superior to Holyfield`s, please dont dispute this.... he is one of the best defensive boxers ever, one of the most accurate & % boxers ever too.

You might not like him & you will no doubt hate him even more after he beats Pacquiao but give credit where credit is due, he has achieved a lot in boxing & is the best pure boxer since Whitaker, you surely must know this shit without me telling you.

:good

PS: The cruiserweight Holyfield was ever bit as effective a fighter as any version of Mayweather was, and the fact he could compete as a heavyweight for so long and with such success means he has proved his ability far more than Floyd ever has.

"You will hate him more" - grow the fuck up William. Take that shit to the General.

And the very best version of Mayweather was an inferior fighter to the very best version of Roy Jones, absolutely not a doubt in my mind. Peak Jones would never have lost to a Castillo-level fighter, then failed to emphatically put him to the sword in a grudge rematch.

[Popkins]

He also lost to fighters he shouldnt have..... listen, I have 0 probs with anyone having Holy in a list that doesnt include FMJ but its not `unjustifiable` to have Floyd there & not have Holyfield, most people will have Mayweather there or thereabouts, THAT is my point.

I dont understand how Pac can be a few places over Holyfield but its blasphemy to have Mayweather over Holyfield.... most agree that its between Floyd & Pac for the fighter of the era so thats not even a closed book yet, thats what the fight on march is for, to see who is the best, a bit like it was when JCC fought Pea, the winner will be viewed by the majority as the best of an era..... then will Floyd pop up into no2 on Popkins list where Pac is now ?.... I wont hold my breath.

You seriously think that is all that is between Pac and Floyd? One fight?? Even though Pac has a clearly stronger resume, and far better weight-jumping achievements? If Floyd beats Pacquiao at welterweight, it does not automatically move him above guys like Chavez, Holyfield and Jones. Floyd's house is built on sand at the moment, his resume is comparatively weak. It will take more than one fight to earn him the status you already bestow on him. One single win over one single top quality welterweight would be nice before he retires, for instance. So would a great performance against a great opponent, considering how unimpressive he has been in his 3 fights against his 2 best opponents to date (Castillo & Oscar).

[Addie]

He also lost to fighters he shouldnt have..... listen, I have 0 probs with anyone having Holy in a list that doesnt include FMJ but its not `unjustifiable` to have Floyd there & not have Holyfield, most people will have Mayweather there or thereabouts, THAT is my point.

I dont understand how Pac can be a few places over Holyfield but its blasphemy to have Mayweather over Holyfield.... most agree that its between Floyd & Pac for the fighter of the era so thats not even a closed book yet, thats what the fight on march is for, to see who is the best, a bit like it was when JCC fought Pea, the winner will be viewed by the majority as the best of an era..... then will Floyd pop up into no2 on Popkins list where Pac is now ?.... I wont hold my breath.

1. Manny Pacquiao
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. Floyd Mayweather Jr

I'm of the opinion that resume should come first when ranking fighters. Pacquiao fought and beat better fighters than Hopkins did, and Hopkins has fought and beat better fighters than Floyd has. I don't care how great Floyd looked when he beat on a human punching bag Aturo Gatti, he just doesn't have the names on his resume to be at number 1. He still won't be even if he blows Pacquiao away but that's my personal opinion.

Pacquiao's resume is so much better than Floyd's it's not even funny Bill.

[Bill Butcher]

PS: The cruiserweight Holyfield was ever bit as effective a fighter as any version of Mayweather was, and the fact he could compete as a heavyweight for so long and with such success means he has proved his ability far more than Floyd ever has.

"You will hate him more" - grow the fuck up William. Take that shit to the General.

And the very best version of Mayweather was an inferior fighter to the very best version of Roy Jones, absolutely not a doubt in my mind. Peak Jones would never have lost to a Castillo-level fighter, then failed to emphatically put him to the sword in a grudge rematch.

Its obvious that you dont like Mayweather but that shit is just gonna distract from what we`re discussing so fuck that.

WTF has Roy Jones got to do with anything ?
Is it because I said FMJ is the best pure boxer since Pea ?
Roy had great skills but it was his athletic ability & reflexes that enabled him to pull that shit off in his prime, once he lost those attributes, his technical skills didnt serve him too well did they ?

Mayweather is a more technically skilled boxer than Jones ever was, no doubt in my mind there either.

Ps. as Ive said more than once, Holy on your list & FMJ not is fine with me, just dont talk pish by saying its unjustifiable to have Mayweather there & not Holyfield.... I certainly didnt see a whole lot of Holyfield`s on the lists in the thread so far to make him a lock like you seem to think he is.

Thats all.

[Bill Butcher]

1. Manny Pacquiao
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. Floyd Mayweather Jr

I'm of the opinion that resume should come first when ranking fighters. Pacquiao fought and beat better fighters than Hopkins did, and Hopkins has fought and beat better fighters than Floyd has. I don't care how great Floyd looked when he beat on a human punching bag Aturo Gatti, he just doesn't have the names on his resume to be at number 1. He still won't be even if he blows Pacquiao away but that's my personal opinion.

Pacquiao's resume is so much better than Floyd's it's not even funny Bill.

So you agree then that Mayweather is above Holyfield, cheers mate :good

[Addie]

So you agree then that Mayweather is above Holyfield, cheers mate :good

No. That's of the decade. :verysad

You've been brainwashed by Mayweather's propaganda Bill. He's pissing on you and you think it's raining.

[Popkins]

Its obvious that you dont like Mayweather but that shit is just gonna distract from what we`re discussing so fuck that.

This is childish. Do you have a deep burning hatred for Lennox Lewis? Or do you just view his career with a scpeticism that not many people share? Because you are critical of a fighter does not mean you "hate" him. I have seen you writing rather vehemently about Lewis, but that doesn't mean I cry hate. Disappointing.

WTF has Roy Jones got to do with anything ?
Is it because I said FMJ is the best pure boxer since Pea ?
Roy had great skills but it was his athletic ability & reflexes that enabled him to pull that shit off in his prime, once he lost those attributes, his technical skills didnt serve him too well did they ?
Mayweather is a more technically skilled boxer than Jones ever was, no doubt in my mind there either.

Better 'pure boxer', better 'brawler', better 'slugger' - Yawn.

Jones was a better fighter than Mayweather. Thats what counts on this thread.

Ps. as Ive said more than once, Holy on your list & FMJ not is fine with me, just dont talk pish by saying its unjustifiable to have Mayweather there & not Holyfield.... I certainly didnt see a whole lot of Holyfield`s on the lists in the thread so far to make him a lock like you seem to think he is.

That all.

Holyfield should be higher than Mayweather on any serious list. As Addie agrees, the man proved more, and no matter how good Mayweather looks when he grins and slaps the piss out of Phillip N'Dou, it's not enough.

[Bill Butcher]

You seriously think that is all that is between Pac and Floyd? One fight?? Even though Pac has a clearly stronger resume, and far better weight-jumping achievements? If Floyd beats Pacquiao at welterweight, it does not automatically move him above guys like Chavez, Holyfield and Jones. Floyd's house is built on sand at the moment, his resume is comparatively weak. It will take more than one fight to earn him the status you already bestow on him. One single win over one single top quality welterweight would be nice before he retires, for instance. So would a great performance against a great opponent, considering how unimpressive he has been in his 3 fights against his 2 best opponents to date (Castillo & Oscar).

He beat a healthy, focused & determined DLH at his best weight in a fight were DLH gave it one last great effort but was outboxed, good performance since 154 obviously hindered him quite a bit.

The 1st Castillo fight could have gone either way but as you say, zero`s dont mean shit anyway so even if he lost (when injured ?), he won the rematch handilly, 8 rds to 4 & not taking many clean shots is NOT struggling IMO.

In short, every opponent that Mayweather has fought has ultimately proved his inferior.

Your reaching for shit that aint there now with this Castillo/DLH thing... credit were credit is due please, at least Pac makes my list, I dont deny the obvious.

[Bill Butcher]

No. That's of the decade. :verysad

You've been brainwashed by Mayweather's propaganda Bill. He's pissing on you and you think it's raining.

Your in the wrong thread then mate, check the thread title.

[Popkins]

He beat a healthy, focused & determined DLH at his best weight in a fight were DLH gave it one last great effort but was outboxed, good performance since 154 obviously hindered him quite a bit.

The 1st Castillo fight could have gone either way but as you say, zero`s dont mean shit anyway so even if he lost (when injured ?), he won the rematch handilly, 8 rds to 4 & not taking many clean shots is NOT struggling IMO.

In short, every opponent that Mayweather has fought has ultimately proved his inferior.

Your reaching for shit that aint there now with this Castillo/DLH thing... credit were credit is due please, at least Pac makes my list, I dont deny the obvious.

I'm sorry, but I can't say I was remotely impressed by Floyd's performance in either Castillo fight or the Oscar fight. If that is hate, then I must be guilty, because that is my genuine opinion from having seen all three fights numerous times.

[Addie]

In short, every opponent that Mayweather has fought has ultimately proved his inferior.

Fuck it then, I rate Lopez higher than Mayweather. And Joe Calzaghe. Add Marciano to the list also. An undefeated records means one of two things. You either campaigned in a weak division for the majority of your career, or you damn right refused to fight the best in your weight division. Nobody is about to tell me Floyd tried to get a fight with the best Welterweights in the world for the last 4-5 years but was unsuccessful. No way. He struggled with Oscar, I felt he lost to Castillo.

Give me a straight answer to this question Bill. What is your criteria for ranking fighters, I'm befuddled. You even think Whitaker and Chavez are interchangeable?

[Addie]

Your in the wrong thread then mate, check the thread title.

most agree that its between Floyd & Pac for the fighter of the era

It was in response to that. :good

[Bill Butcher]

Jones was a better fighter than Mayweather. Thats what counts on this thread.



Holyfield should be higher than Mayweather on any serious list. As Addie agrees

Top line.... not in my book, its close tho.

Next line.... Doesnt mean shit to me if Addie or any other poster agrees, this is personal opinion, someone is bound to agree with everyone at one point, doesnt make it gospel.

[Popkins]

Fuck it then, I rate Lopez higher than Mayweather. And Joe Calzaghe. Add Marciano to the list also. An undefeated records means one of two things. You either campaigned in a weak division for the majority of your career, or you damn right refused to fight the best in your weight division. Nobody is about to tell me Floyd tried to get a fight with the best Welterweights in the world for the last 4-5 years but was unsuccessful. No way. He struggled with Oscar, I felt he lost to Castillo.

Give me a straight answer to this question Bill. What is your criteria for ranking fighters, I'm befuddled. You even think Whitaker and Chavez are interchangeable?

I honestly think Bill's ranking system is done in terms of how much he likes each fighter, that would explain why he thinks it is hatred to view any fighter critically, he is involving likes and dislikes in it.

[Bill Butcher]

Fuck it then, I rate Lopez higher than Mayweather. And Joe Calzaghe. Add Marciano to the list also. An undefeated records means one of two things. You either campaigned in a weak division for the majority of your career, or you damn right refused to fight the best in your weight division. Nobody is about to tell me Floyd tried to get a fight with the best Welterweights in the world for the last 4-5 years but was unsuccessful. No way. He struggled with Oscar, I felt he lost to Castillo.

Give me a straight answer to this question Bill. What is your criteria for ranking fighters, I'm befuddled. You even think Whitaker and Chavez are interchangeable?

Achievements, skillset & record.

[Popkins]

Top line.... not in my book, its close tho.

Next line.... Doesnt mean shit to me if Addie or any other poster agrees, this is personal opinion, someone is bound to agree with everyone at one point, doesnt make it gospel.

Jones would never have lost to (or nearly lost to, whatever) a Castillo-standard fighter, then took a dull and unimpressive decision in a rematch where he refused to engage. If you look at both fighters' peaks objectively, Jones was the more effective fighter.

What exactly is your argument for ranking Mayweather higher than Holyfield? Is there one?

[Addie]

Achievements, skillset & record.

And Pacquiao outdoes Mayweather in career Achievements and record, and that wouldn't have changed regardless of the outcome of their upcoming fight?

[Bill Butcher]

I honestly think Bill's ranking system is done in terms of how much he likes each fighter, that would explain why he thinks it is hatred to view any fighter critically, he is involving likes and dislikes in it.

Why isnt Morales on my list ?
Why is Pacquiao, Jones & Mayweather ON my list ?

I call it how I see it.

[Popkins]

Achievements, skillset & record.

You have for a long time said that you struggle to choose between Chavez and Whitaker for who should be higher. Well, you used to say Chavez should be higher, but you have revised that recently to saying it is a difficult choice that could go either way. How exactly have you been coming to that conclusion, considering your three criteria? It's honestly not even close.

[Popkins]

Why isnt Morales on my list ?
Why is Pacquiao, Jones & Mayweather ON my list ?

I call it how I see it.

You are a Mayweather fan Bill, that much is crystal clear. There's no shame in that, I'm confused as to why you would imply otherwise here.

I also call it how I see it, there is zero difference in the way I view Mayweather to the way you view Lennox Lewis. The only difference is the way in which I view your opinion of Lewis and you view my opinion of Mayweather, ie you cry hate and I don't.

[Bill Butcher]

Jones would never have lost to (or nearly lost to, whatever) a Castillo-standard fighter, then took a dull and unimpressive decision in a rematch where he refused to engage. If you look at both fighters' peaks objectively, Jones was the more effective fighter.

What exactly is your argument for ranking Mayweather higher than Holyfield? Is there one?

Jones is ON my list so Im not gonna argue about him, he was faster & more powerful than Mayweather but Mayweather is a more skilled fighter... end of.

My argument for the May-Holy thing is in this thread, check back, it could be fun.

[Bill Butcher]

And Pacquiao outdoes Mayweather in career Achievements and record, and that wouldn't have changed regardless of the outcome of their upcoming fight?

I DO have Pac a little ahead of Mayweather right now but its close enough that a decisive victory by Mayweather puts him above Pacquiao... it will show us who is the standout boxer of the era is. Why the fuck are they fighting if people are still gonna rank Pac higher even if he loses ? :lol:... thats a fkn joke, thats plain bias in Pacmans favour IMO.

[Popkins]

I DO have Pac a little ahead of Mayweather right now but its close enough that a decisive victory by Mayweather puts him above Pacquiao... it will show us who is the standout boxer of the era is. Why the fuck are they fighting if people are still gonna rank Pac higher even if he loses ? :lol:... thats a fkn joke, thats plain bias in Pacmans favour IMO.

Is this a serious post?

[Popkins]

Jones is ON my list so Im not gonna argue about him, he was faster & more powerful than Mayweather but Mayweather is a more skilled fighter... end of.

My argument for the May-Holy thing is in this thread, check back, it could be fun.

Mayweather may have better 'skills' (I say may have), but Jones was the more effective fighter, and that's what counts ultimately. Barrera had better skills than Pacquiao, and Pacquiao crushed him. Better 'skills' in this day and age simply means slicker, that's why you get inbreds in the General saying Joan Guzman is the second coming of Christ and that Roberto Duran was an uncultured savage who flailed around like an angry drunk in a pub carpark. Jones was a more effective fighter in his prime, because he schooled the best fighters he fought and was virtually untouchable for an entire decade, whereas Mayweather struggled with fighters of a standard Jones would not have, and failed to impress or convince against his best opponents.

Holyfield must rank higher than Floyd... 'end of'. No-one has made a decent argument to the contrary on this thread, and I doubt there even is one.

[Bill Butcher]

You are a Mayweather fan Bill, that much is crystal clear. There's no shame in that, I'm confused as to why you would imply otherwise here.

I also call it how I see it, there is zero difference in the way I view Mayweather to the way you view Lennox Lewis. The only difference is the way in which I view your opinion of Lewis and you view my opinion of Mayweather, ie you cry hate and I don't.

OK, I wont use the word hate again, he isnt one of your favourites much like Lewis isnt one of mine, fair enough ? We dont know the men personally so hate is too strong, point taken.

Ps. I regard Mayweather as the most talented fighter of his generation & admit to that, it doesnt mean Im a fan so to speak, the only time Ive not rooted against the guy was vs Marquez because I want the mega-fight between Floyd & Pac, the truth is I dont dislike Mayweather the way I used to but I still have issues with certain things about him, always will, he aint never gonna replace Morales as my fav fighter, that much is certain :lol: but I try to just judge him in the ring now, its not worth the grief & frustration focusing on all the other shit.... after all, we dont know them personally.

:good

[Bill Butcher]

Is this a serious post?

What will your top 5 be if Mayweather beats Pacquiao clearly ?
&
Who will Mayweather need to beat to top Whitaker ? :think

[Popkins]

OK, I wont use the word hate again, he isnt one of your favourites much like Lewis isnt one of mine, fair enough ? We dont know the men personally so hate is too strong, point taken.

Ps. I regard Mayweather as the most talented fighter of his generation & admit to that, it doesnt mean Im a fan so to speak, the only time Ive not rooted against the guy was vs Marquez because I want the mega-fight between Floyd & Pac, the truth is I dont dislike Mayweather the way I used to but I still have issues with certain things about him, always will, he aint never gonna replace Morales as my fav fighter, that much is certain :lol: but I try to just judge him in the ring now, its not worth the grief & frustration focusing on all the other shit.... after all, we dont know them personally.

:good

Point on Lewis/Mayweather: Agreed, fair enough.

I think Mayweather comes across as a titanic arsehole on interviews, but that isn't the basis for my criticisms of him. I think he is a highly skilled fighter, but I do think he has flaws and faults which his zero, his image, and his self-propaganda obscure. He was not impressive in his 3 fights against his 2 best opponents, he has not fought the best fighters available to him in his era, he was not as good a fighter as Roy Jones was, he did lose the first fight with Castillo, and to be honest I don't even like his style anymore. At superfeatherweight he was great to watch and appreciate, but this over-cautious one-punch-at-a-time welterweight version just doesn't float my boat at all. His performances at welterweight haven't been great IMO, I don't think he is a great welter at all. A great welter would have smoked Hatton, Judah and Marquez earlier and more impressively than Mayweather did. JMHO.

[Popkins]

What will your top 5 be if Mayweather beats Pacquiao clearly ?
&
Who will Mayweather need to beat to top Whitaker ? :think

I can't answer the first question, because when it comes to Floyd I believe we have a different definition of the word 'clearly'. Most people here seem to be highly impressed with the languid performance which led to a close win over a past-prime Oscar, most people on here seem to be highly impressed with a points win over a fat impostor of Marquez who was just begging to be knocked out, and most people on here seem to be highly impressed when Floyd refused to engage JL Castillo in their rematch and stunk the place out on his bike to take a decision.

Floyd jogging round the ring apron flicking out jabs and running the clock down to get a UD against a smaller man with a shorter reach may be an emphatic win to some, but it isn't to me. If Floyd engages Pacquiao, uses all his skills to outbox and punish Pacquiao, and in the later rounds steps forward and tries to assert his superiority beyond all reasonable doubt... well, that would be a different story. But it's not going to happen. Floyd's mentality will not allow it.

What would Mayweather need to do to top Whitaker? Hmmm. Build a time machine, go back to the start of his career, and be a far better boxer than he actually was. Or a real solid gold achievement where he was not odds-on favourite to win, maybe beating Pacquiao then Mosley then a Williams or a Martinez or someone good at 154. He is just too far behind just now to gain parity with one fight.

[Bill Butcher]

Point on Lewis/Mayweather: Agreed, fair enough.

I think Mayweather comes across as a titanic arsehole on interviews, but that isn't the basis for my criticisms of him. I think he is a highly skilled fighter, but I do think he has flaws and faults which his zero, his image, and his self-propaganda obscure. He was not impressive in his 3 fights against his 2 best opponents, he has not fought the best fighters available to him in his era, he was not as good a fighter as Roy Jones was, he did lose the first fight with Castillo, and to be honest I don't even like his style anymore. At superfeatherweight he was great to watch and appreciate, but this over-cautious one-punch-at-a-time welterweight version just doesn't float my boat at all. His performances at welterweight haven't been great IMO, I don't think he is a great welter at all. A great welter would have smoked Hatton, Judah and Marquez earlier and more impressively than Mayweather did. JMHO.

Fair enough on all those points but his style isnt really a `smoking` kinda style to be fair, he DID prove a class above all those guys in his OWN STYLE tho but as you say, its preference.

:good

[Bill Butcher]

I can't answer the first question, because when it comes to Floyd I believe we have a different definition of the word 'clearly'. Most people here seem to be highly impressed with the languid performance which led to a close win over a past-prime Oscar, most people on here seem to be highly impressed with a points win over a fat impostor of Marquez who was just begging to be knocked out, and most people on here seem to be highly impressed when Floyd refused to engage JL Castillo in their rematch and stunk the place out on his bike to take a decision.

Floyd jogging round the ring apron flicking out jabs and running the clock down to get a UD against a smaller man with a shorter reach may be an emphatic win to some, but it isn't to me. If Floyd engages Pacquiao, uses all his skills to outbox and punish Pacquiao, and in the later rounds steps forward and tries to assert his superiority beyond all reasonable doubt... well, that would be a different story. But it's not going to happen. Floyd's mentality will not allow it.

What would Mayweather need to do to top Whitaker? Hmmm. Build a time machine, go back to the start of his career, and be a far better boxer than he actually was. Or a real solid gold achievement where he was not odds-on favourite to win, maybe beating Pacquiao then Mosley then a Williams or a Martinez or someone good at 154. He is just too far behind just now to gain parity with one fight.

No, I didnt mean who does FMJ have to beat to surpass Pea as in just ONE fighter, I know thats almost impossible, I meant what fighters would he have to beat to overtake Pea but you answered that anyway :good

[Flea Man]

I can't answer the first question, because when it comes to Floyd I believe we have a different definition of the word 'clearly'. Most people here seem to be highly impressed with the languid performance which led to a close win over a past-prime Oscar, most people on here seem to be highly impressed with a points win over a fat impostor of Marquez who was just begging to be knocked out, and most people on here seem to be highly impressed when Floyd refused to engage JL Castillo in their rematch and stunk the place out on his bike to take a decision.

Floyd jogging round the ring apron flicking out jabs and running the clock down to get a UD against a smaller man with a shorter reach may be an emphatic win to some, but it isn't to me. If Floyd engages Pacquiao, uses all his skills to outbox and punish Pacquiao, and in the later rounds steps forward and tries to assert his superiority beyond all reasonable doubt... well, that would be a different story. But it's not going to happen. Floyd's mentality will not allow it.

What would Mayweather need to do to top Whitaker? Hmmm. Build a time machine, go back to the start of his career, and be a far better boxer than he actually was. Or a real solid gold achievement where he was not odds-on favourite to win, maybe beating Pacquiao then Mosley then a Williams or a Martinez or someone good at 154. He is just too far behind just now to gain parity with one fight.


Marry me:lol:

[Popkins]

Marry me:lol:

:lol:

[Popkins]

Fair enough on all those points but his style isnt really a `smoking` kinda style to be fair, he DID prove a class above all those guys in his OWN STYLE tho but as you say, its preference.

:good

When I say "smoking" I don't necessarily mean in the Joe Frazier, chew them up and spit them out kind of way, I am well aware that isn't Floyd's style. But there is a difference between a fighter of Floyd's style winning comfortably and winning emphatically. He beat Corrales and Gatti emphatically, put them to the sword. I don't think he did so to either Judah or Marquez, despite winning both fights clearly. You could argue that he did so with Hatton, but considering the frailty Hatton had already exhibited against Collazo at welter, and how terribly easily Pacquiao dispatched him, I think if Floyd was less cautious he could have "Gatti'd" Hatton earlier and with less close rounds.

[Bill Butcher]

When I say "smoking" I don't necessarily mean in the Joe Frazier, chew them up and spit them out kind of way, I am well aware that isn't Floyd's style. But there is a difference between a fighter of Floyd's style winning comfortably and winning emphatically. He beat Corrales and Gatti emphatically, put them to the sword. I don't think he did so to either Judah or Marquez, despite winning both fights clearly. You could argue that he did so with Hatton, but considering the frailty Hatton had already exhibited against Collazo at welter, and how terribly easily Pacquiao dispatched him, I think if Floyd was less cautious he could have "Gatti'd" Hatton earlier and with less close rounds.

Possibly, but he is a defence 1st boxer, always has been even at 130, he cruises when he can & some people dont like that shit, I think he will show all his stuff vs Pacman because he is faced with danger, the Pac fight will tell us if Mayweather really does belong with the Whitaker`s of the world, it will be interesting for us fans & a massive test for Mayweather considering Pac`s form & how comfortable he seems at these higher weights.

[Popkins]

Possibly, but he is a defence 1st boxer, always has been even at 130, he cruises when he can & some people dont like that shit, I think he will show all his stuff vs Pacman because he is faced with danger, the Pac fight will tell us if Mayweather really does belong with the Whitaker`s of the world, it will be interesting for us fans & a massive test for Mayweather considering Pac`s form & how comfortable he seems at these higher weights.

He has always been defensively minded, but as I said, there is a difference between a comfortable win and an emphatic win for a fighter of Floyd's style. When a classy defensive fighter mixes his slick defence with a sporadically aggressive strategy and tries to put his opponent to the sword (a la Whitaker-Haugen, Mayweather-Corrales etc), there are few finer sights in boxing. But Floyd has either been unable or unwilling to do this against his best opponents, either way he doesn't get the credit now that he would be due if he had "Gatti'd" Castillo in the rematch and Oscar in their fight.

There is more chance of Floyd Sr winning Miss Las Vegas than there is of Floyd Jr throwing caution to the wind against a fighter with Pac's power. Brace yourself for the most negative Pretty Boy you have ever seen.

[Bill Butcher]

Floyd or any other fighter would be a complete lunatic to attack Pacquiao in that manner.... beating Pacquiao PERIOD these days looks like mission impossible, if Mayweather beats Pac, no matter how he does it, backfoot, frontfoot, bit of both, it doesnt matter, he should get full credit for having the skills & mental ability to do what nobody seems to be able to do right now... beat Pacman.

[Mantequilla]

Chang

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by Popkins
I don't think he did so to either Judah or Marquez, despite winning both fights clearly.Mayweather lost 4 out of the first 5 rounds to Judah, made a mid-fight adjustment to take the fight over, and looked to be on his way to stopping Judah before the chaos broke out. That was one of Floyd's best performances.
but considering the frailty Hatton had already exhibited against Collazo at welterHow fragile is Berto in your eyes since his performance against Collazo? Hatton was giving Mayweather a fight, it is not as though he could simply choose when he was going to break him. Mayweahther does not hit as hard as Pacquiao.

Mayweahther would be a lot closer to my top 5 if I thought he was good enough to be sandbagging in those fights with Judah or Hatton.

[Popkins]

Floyd or any other fighter would be a complete lunatic to attack Pacquiao in that manner.... beating Pacquiao PERIOD these days looks like mission impossible, if Mayweather beats Pac, no matter how he does it, backfoot, frontfoot, bit of both, it doesnt matter, he should get full credit for having the skills & mental ability to do what nobody seems to be able to do right now... beat Pacman.

I disagree. The manner of victory is always important. Whenever you are deciding on the quality of a win, you always consider both the quality of the losing opponent and the quality of the winning performance. That's why some wins are rated highly when they were achieved against opponents not quite from the top bracket (like Calzaghe-Lacy) because of the quality of performance was so high, and why some wins are not rated particularly highly despite coming against very good fighters (like Hopkins-Winky IMO) because it was an ugly, unimpressive, unconvincing fight where neither man emerged with much credit.

If Floyd fights Pac like he did Castillo in their second fight, and has people booing throughout, and takes a dull UD after running for the duration, he will get nowhere near the same amount of credit as if he emphatically put Pacquiao to the sword, outboxing and punishing him.

[Popkins]

Mayweather lost 4 out of the first 5 rounds to Judah, made a mid-fight adjustment to take the fight over, and looked to be on his way to stopping Judah before the chaos broke out. That was one of Floyd's best performances.

A great welterweight would have disposed of Judah with ease IMO. He was always there for the taking. He'd just lost to Baldomir FFS!

How fragile is Berto in your eyes since his performance against Collazo? Hatton was giving Mayweather a fight, it is not as though he could simply choose when he was going to break him. Mayweahther does not hit as hard as Pacquiao.

Mayweahther would be a lot closer to my top 5 if I thought he was good enough to be sandbagging in those fights with Judah or Hatton.

Berto? Eminently beatable by a top welter, as will shortly be proven by SSM.

Again, I do believe (and did believe after Hatton-Collazo) that a great welter blows Hatton away.

[UT78]

Lennox Lewis has to be on the list.

He's widely considered on these boards to be amongst the top five greatest heavyweights of all time, he retired as the undisputed champion of the world in the most prestigious division, he has beaten every man he has gotten into the ring with and throughout his career, he pretty much took on all comers during one of the most stacked heavyweight divisions of any era. It is this competition that makes me put him above Larry Holmes.

What more can you want? IMO, top 5 fighters since Ray Leonard. :good

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by Popkins
A great welterweight would have disposed of Judah with ease IMO. He was always there for the taking. He'd just lost to Baldomir FFS!

Judah succumbs to pressure. Judah is very difficult to outbox. Cory Spinks found that out. Mayweather discovered this too, and is not a pressure fighter. Mayweather put the pressure on around the 5th round on, and looked to be on his way to forcing a stoppage. I thought it was one of his most champion like performances.
Berto? Eminently beatable by a top welter, as will shortly be proven by SSM.
I was questioning your use of the world frail more than anything. I expect Mosley to stop Berto, but I wouldn't call him fragile. You called Hatton frail based upon his performance to Collazo, whom I thought performed just as well against Berto.
Posted by Popkins
Again, I do believe (and did believe after Hatton-Collazo) that a great welter blows Hatton away.
I can't really argue with this. I bet against Hatton going into the Collazo fight based solely on the footage HBO provided in their pre-fight commercials. I scored the fight 6-4 in Collazo's favor, with the fight being even because of Hatton knocking Collazo down. That, or I had it 5-5 for Hatton, and gave the fight to Hatton with the knock down factored in. I don't remember exactly. I just know I lost a couple dollars.

I don't argue Floyd as one of the top 5 fighters since Ray Leonard, and am even further away from arguing his all time worth at welterweight. I just thought the Judah and Hatton fights were bad examples of fights to hold against him.

[PowerPuncher]

What would Mayweather need to do to top Whitaker? Hmmm. Build a time machine, go back to the start of his career, and be a far better boxer than he actually was. Or a real solid gold achievement where he was not odds-on favourite to win, maybe beating Pacquiao then Mosley then a Williams or a Martinez or someone good at 154. He is just too far behind just now to gain parity with one fight.

Mayweather will never be as good as Whitaker but resume wise its close imo:

135-130/135

Castillo x2 - Rameriez x2
Corrales-Nelson
Manfredy - Mayweather
Genaro Hernandez -Haugen
Chavez-Paez
Augustus-Pendleton

140

Gatti-Pineda
Corley

147

Pacquaio-Chavez
Judah-McGirt x2
Hatton-Delahoya

154

Delahoya-Vasquez

I'm not sure if there's a world of difference in terms of opposition, some of Whitakers are certainly better but some of Floyds are too

[Bill Butcher]

I disagree. The manner of victory is always important. Whenever you are deciding on the quality of a win, you always consider both the quality of the losing opponent and the quality of the winning performance. That's why some wins are rated highly when they were achieved against opponents not quite from the top bracket (like Calzaghe-Lacy) because of the quality of performance was so high, and why some wins are not rated particularly highly despite coming against very good fighters (like Hopkins-Winky IMO) because it was an ugly, unimpressive, unconvincing fight where neither man emerged with much credit.

If Floyd fights Pac like he did Castillo in their second fight, and has people booing throughout, and takes a dull UD after running for the duration, he will get nowhere near the same amount of credit as if he emphatically put Pacquiao to the sword, outboxing and punishing him.

If Floyd does to Pac what he did to Castillo in the rematch... that IS outboxing him, maybe not punishing him physically but certainly mentally, frustration is a bad thing for a fighter to feel, especially in the richest fight in history where millions of people are watching & worship you like they do Pacman.

If Mayweather beats Pacquiao PERIOD as long as its not a poor judges decision he should get 100% credit because no other fighter from 147 downwards will be favoured to beat Pac regardless of how boring they try & fight... if Floyd can manage to win this fight, all the bullshit about him never having beat an ATG in their prime goes down the toilet. He will have proved himself in any reasonable persons eyes.

[Bill Butcher]

Lennox Lewis has to be on the list.

He's widely considered on these boards to be amongst the top five greatest heavyweights of all time, he retired as the undisputed champion of the world in the most prestigious division, he has beaten every man he has gotten into the ring with and throughout his career, he pretty much took on all comers during one of the most stacked heavyweight divisions of any era. It is this competition that makes me put him above Larry Holmes.

What more can you want? IMO, top 5 fighters since Ray Leonard. :good

Bad post in my view, Holmes was better & greater than Lewis, no doubt.

Lewis wasnt as good as Morales or Barrera & they dont make my list & he isnt WIDELY considered top 5 on ESB, some posters have him there but my guess would be most dont.... he should make most top 10s tho.

:good

[Bill Butcher]

Judah succumbs to pressure. Judah is very difficult to outbox. Cory Spinks found that out. Mayweather discovered this too, and is not a pressure fighter. Mayweather put the pressure on around the 5th round on, and looked to be on his way to forcing a stoppage. I thought it was one of his most champion like performances.

I was questioning your use of the world frail more than anything. I expect Mosley to stop Berto, but I wouldn't call him fragile. You called Hatton frail based upon his performance to Collazo, whom I thought performed just as well against Berto.

I can't really argue with this. I bet against Hatton going into the Collazo fight based solely on the footage HBO provided in their pre-fight commercials. I scored the fight 6-4 in Collazo's favor, with the fight being even because of Hatton knocking Collazo down. That, or I had it 5-5 for Hatton, and gave the fight to Hatton with the knock down factored in. I don't remember exactly. I just know I lost a couple dollars.

I don't argue Floyd as one of the top 5 fighters since Ray Leonard, and am even further away from arguing his all time worth at welterweight. I just thought the Judah and Hatton fights were bad examples of fights to hold against him.

My thoughts exactly, Mayweather was masterful in both fights, showed what a multi-skilled fighter he was in both of those fights, 2 very good performances.

Sure, any great welter like a Leonard or Hearns might have put them to the sword quicker but those guys started at WW, FMJ started at fkn 130, that was his peak class, everything else should be viewed as adding to his legacy.

[UT78]

Bad post in my view, Holmes was better & greater than Lewis, no doubt.

Lewis wasnt as good as Morales or Barrera & they dont make my list & he isnt WIDELY considered top 5 on ESB, some posters have him there but my guess would be most dont.... he should make most top 10s tho.

:good

Disagreed. I think Holmes Lewis would be near pick 'em fight, although I might be leaning towards Lewis. The reason I picked Lewis over Holmes is his resume, the division was far deeper in Lewis' era and to have defeated each and every pretender to his throne is something else.

Morales and Barrera are absolute legends but when people in 20-30 years look back at this era, Lewis' name will crop up as one of the definitive fighters of these years.

It might not be fair, pound for pound others might be better, but (1) he's a heavyweight (2) who cleaned out a stacked division with fighters like Tyson, Holyfield, Tua etc, (3) retired undisputed heavyweight champion of the world and (4) with his retirement, the division went through one of its most turbulent times ever where his absence was deeply felt. These achievement and circumstances makes him one of the top fighters since Ray Leonard.

[Bill Butcher]

Disagreed. I think Holmes Lewis would be near pick 'em fight, although I might be leaning towards Lewis. The reason I picked Lewis over Holmes is his resume, the division was far deeper in Lewis' era and to have defeated each and every pretender to his throne is something else.

Morales and Barrera are absolute legends but when people in 20-30 years look back at this era, Lewis' name will crop up as one of the definitive fighters of these years.

It might not be fair, pound for pound others might be better, but (1) he's a heavyweight (2) who cleaned out a stacked division with fighters like Tyson, Holyfield, Tua etc, (3) retired undisputed heavyweight champion of the world and (4) with his retirement, the division went through one of its most turbulent times ever where his absence was deeply felt. These achievement and circumstances makes him one of the top fighters since Ray Leonard.

Just not one of the top 5 tho, not even close.

[Popkins]

If Floyd does to Pac what he did to Castillo in the rematch... that IS outboxing him, maybe not punishing him physically but certainly mentally, frustration is a bad thing for a fighter to feel, especially in the richest fight in history where millions of people are watching & worship you like they do Pacman.

If Mayweather beats Pacquiao PERIOD as long as its not a poor judges decision he should get 100% credit because no other fighter from 147 downwards will be favoured to beat Pac regardless of how boring they try & fight... if Floyd can manage to win this fight, all the bullshit about him never having beat an ATG in their prime goes down the toilet. He will have proved himself in any reasonable persons eyes.

I disagree. As I said, the manner of victory is always important in deciding on the value of a win, in my mind it is always always a case of:

Quality of Opponent + Quality of Performance = Quality of Win

I won't be changing my criteria because it's Floyd or because it's Pac or because it's anyone, that is always the way. That's why I don't rate wins like Leonard-Hagler or Calzaghe-Hopkins as highly as the quality of opposition suggests, because if it's not a great performance then it has to detract from the quality of the win. It's just my own criteria/opinion, and I see no reason to change it for any specific fight.

[Popkins]

My thoughts exactly, Mayweather was masterful in both fights, showed what a multi-skilled fighter he was in both of those fights, 2 very good performances.

Two comfortable wins, sure. But two opponents whose inherent frailties could have seen them taken apart more emphatically if Floyd was not so cautious.

Sure, any great welter like a Leonard or Hearns might have put them to the sword quicker but those guys started at WW, FMJ started at fkn 130, that was his peak class, everything else should be viewed as adding to his legacy.

You can't use the starting weight excuse when we are talking about fights at welterweight with Judah, Hatton and Marquez. Hatton and Judah were two very small welters, and Marquez was a fat lightweight. Floyd was the same size as Judah, and was bigger than Hatton and Marquez.