Wladimir Klitschko DESTROYS Ali

[cross_trainer]

Discuss.

[doomeddisciple]

Like he destroyed Sultan Ibragimov?

[mr. magoo]

Knowing something about Cross Trainer, this is likely an attempt to get a heated debate going, even though he really doesn't believe in the gist of his own thread title.....

I have been a member of this forum since early 2007, and frankly, although the intent is harmless and humerous in nature, I think we have had enough of these threads.

The Klitschko brothers are very good fighters who are worthy of a reasonable amount of respect, but they are not by any means all time greats, and nor should they be mocked by their detractors.

Let's leave a dead horse lie........

[Thread Stealer]

Late 1970s Ali?
Early 1980s Ali?
Laila Ali?

I agree.

Wlad wouldn't be a real easy fight for a prime Ali, but I don't think he wins, either.

[Slothrop]

Destroyed may be a bit too strong of a word.

[DudeGuyMan]

This belongs in General, where it would somehow degenerate into a Pac/Floyd slapfight.

[cross_trainer]

All right, confession time:

I'm generally a pro-old timer guy. Or maybe just inclined to root for the underdog (I've argued once that Fitzsimmons would beat Liston. Oh for shame...)

Regardless, old-versus-new debates have been in the back of my mind for a while. The idealistic part of me--not to mention the boxing analyst--would like to believe that prime-for-prime fantasy matchups between 1970s fighters and modern fighters would be equal affairs.

The cynic in me disagrees.

Boxing is VERY different today than it was during Ali's time. Not style-wise, but the other stuff. Modern training methods are definitely better for preparing fighters physically. The world population is larger by a country mile. The demographics have shifted. Even amateur boxing has changed.

If Ali and Klitschko fought, I'm tempted to expect one of two outcomes. Either:

1) The version of the sport in the 1960s and 70s produced superior talent, and Ali trounces Klitschko. This is supported in part by Foreman's and Holmes' successful comebacks.

2) The version of the sport in the 2000's has produced a better brand of athlete. Wlad annihilates Ali. This is the version that modern sports science would argue for.




Personally, I prefer middle-of-the-road stuff...but this thread is about CONTROVERSY! CONFLICT! RADICAL DISAGREEMENT! All the nifty stuff that we could use more of (as long as it's reasonably polite). After all, this is a boxing forum.



Have at it, gentlemen! :fire

[cross_trainer]

Like he destroyed Sultan Ibragimov?

A near-perfect shutout of "The Greatest of All Time" would definitely qualify as "destruction". Arguably more than a knockout. :think

[TheBradyHawkes]

Destroyed may be a bit too strong of a word.

Indeed. I think we replace that with "loses to" and we're all set.

[cross_trainer]

This belongs in General, where it would somehow degenerate into a Pac/Floyd slapfight.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

[KOTF]

What does it matter, they both get taken to school by Jimmy Young

[cross_trainer]

What does it matter, they both get taken to school by Jimmy Young


And Tua. Can't forget Tua.

[LeonMcS]

You forget Bergeron.

[Boxed Ears]

Eliminate weight classes, Koki Kameda disposes of them both in the same night, both first-round knockouts-no, not TECHNICAL knockouts, but straight knockouts. Flat on the canvas, asleep, at least 20 minutes of coma.

[KTFO]

Word. Bigtime.

[China_hand_Joe]

Discuss.


Although overall the top HWs have become worse overall, Wlad bucks that trend.

Ali has no way whatsoever to beat a prime Wlad.

Jab, jab, jab, right from a safe distance, with no knockout power to worry about.

[Shake]

Ali has footspeed, an iron will and is his own ring general. I don't think Wlad has the reflexes to react to Ali's punches at all, he would not be able to see them, for all intents and purposes, by virtue of being such a large man. (though incredibly athletic for his size)

Ali can step in with jabs and occasionally follow up with right crosses. Ali can only do this if Wlad's most impressive weapon, his own jab, does not pose the threat it normal does and I think it doesn't. Ali could stay out of range, pop in with footspeed, coming in punching straight, and tie his man up. For once his opponent would not be looking to break free, as Wlad is happy to clinch.

I put forth the argument that Ali's jab troubles Wlad more than vice-verse purely going on respective handspeed and reflexes. I say that compared to the advantage Ali holds in these two attributes Wlad's reach advantage is not such a big deal even though historically taller boxers outbox smaller boxers.

Ali by close UD over 12, and wider UD over 15.

[Genesis]

Like he destroyed Purrity and Sanders and never rematched them.

[Bill Butcher]

Discuss.

No.

Attention seeking dumbass.

[Stevie G]

This theory is interesting,to say the least. I'm not saying that Ali would find Wladimir or his brother easy opponents,but he beats them both without any real hardship.

[PowerPuncher]

Ali was faster than Sanders and Sanders speed was the only time either Klit has been landed on. However I think both Klits left jabs causes Ali problems too. 60s Ali wins UDs over both, early 70s Ali fights very close fights with both going either way, post 74 Ali loses to both imo

[China_hand_Joe]

Prime Wlad can be beaten by strength and aggression, Ali never had those.

George Foreman can beat Wlad though as he is a far more balanced all round fighter.

Watch Wlad vs Byrd (similar fighter to Ali), Sanders, Peters to see the ease with which Wlad deals with speed and struggled with brute force.

Wlad UD 12, 15 over Ali by about a 2:1 round ratio.

Foreman KO Wlad within 3 or 4 rounds.

[lolb]

Ali would toy with Wlad for as long as he wanted and then take him out. The hand and foot speed of Ali would be a nightmare for the plodding Klit.

[Rubber Warrior]

Like he destroyed Sultan Ibragimov?

:good

[rm36]

I don't think Wlad has the skills to trouble Ali. He's taller and he weighs more, but their reach is fairly close. Ali's chin, speed, and footwork are superior, and he has the best competition of any heavyweight. Wlad has better power than Ali, but I don't think he's stronger than Ali. Ali also faced punchers who hit harder than Wlad, so I don't see what would trouble Ali about him.

Ali wins a clear decision.

[djanders]

This would be an easy win for Muhammad Ali...in my opinion.

[Stevie G]

Prime Wlad can be beaten by strength and aggression, Ali never had those.

George Foreman can beat Wlad though as he is a far more balanced all round fighter.

Watch Wlad vs Byrd (similar fighter to Ali), Sanders, Peters to see the ease with which Wlad deals with speed and struggled with brute force.

Wlad UD 12, 15 over Ali by about a 2:1 round ratio.

Foreman KO Wlad within 3 or 4 rounds.
Ali never had strength ???? Numerous fighters,Ken Norton among them,testified that Muhammad was the strongest fighter they'd ever faced.

[red cobra]

Well...NO..Wlad WOULD NOT have destroyed Ali...there..we've discussed it.

[JimmyShimmy]

Ali hasn't got a damn chance.

[PetethePrince]

2) The version of the sport in the 2000's has produced a better brand of athlete.

How could you even justify this in boxing? Look at Wlad losses. Compare the comp besides the Klits. I don't understand this conclusion. Who on Wlad's comp beats Ali. Nobody stands even a chance against even a non-prime post exile Ali of 71-74. Where do I go wrong?

[McGrain]

Ali by shutout.

[Bokaj]

I think Ali would have some trouble early on. But Wlad is a bit mechanic and predictable and even 60's Ali was perhaps the best fighter of all time when it came to adapt to the opponent. Sooner or later he would find Wlad's vulnerability and start exploiting it to the fullest. Wlad is a tough match-up, but Ali feasted on orthodox and predictable fighters.

Over 12 Ali races clear in the last third, perhaps winning 8-4, 9-3 or something like that. Over 15 this could be a TKO. Ali was no huge puncher, but he could smell wounded prey from a mile off, and if a tiring Wlad gets hurt he has virtually no chance of staying alive against a finisher like Ali.

I think Vitaly, with his unorthodoxy, would be a more difficult opponent to be honest.

[kingofcali]

Yeah on Fight Night Round 4 if you leave the fuckin analogue stick unattended!

Other than that you need shot with puffy balls of your own shit!:patsch

[frankenfrank]

Like he destroyed Sultan Ibragimov?
a good point. should have thought about it.
but what about chagaev ? byrd ? tony thompson ? jameel mccline ?
i know thompson is no ali but ali will face a bigger height disadvantage that thompson did.
ali should be given his puncher's chance , but i think wlad either stops him late or , more realistically decisions him. after all norton and spinks did , and holmes stopped him. so , i know ali was not prime against either holmes nor spinks , but , wlad is either one of them in h2h ability also.

[frankenfrank]

Ali by shutout.
over wlad ? :lol:
wlad won't land on him . not even once.
maybe if toney was ali's coach.

[Mr Butt]

ali wide ud

[cross_trainer]

How could you even justify this in boxing? Look at Wlad losses. Compare the comp besides the Klits. I don't understand this conclusion. Who on Wlad's comp beats Ali. Nobody stands even a chance against even a non-prime post exile Ali of 71-74. Where do I go wrong?

Because you're comparing records from two different time periods. It's not like they fought the same guys. You're implicitly assuming that the two eras are equal, and that a Lamon Brewster-ish ranked fighter from 2007 is the same as a Lamon Brewster-ish ranked fighter from 1972.

If--and note that I say IF--modern training and the larger talent pool are big advantages, then the Lamon Brewsters and Corrie Sanders(es) of today might hand a time-machine 1971 version of Ali the same losses that Klitschko had...or worse.

[cross_trainer]

Other than that you need shot with puffy balls of your own shit!:patsch

That sounds rather unpleasant.

[McGrain]

If--and note that I say IF--modern training and the larger talent pool are big advantages, then the Lamon Brewsters and Corrie Sanders(es) of today might hand a time-machine 1971 version of Ali the same losses that Klitschko had...or worse.

Why do you keep saying the talent pool is larger? The talent pool is smaller unless you are interested in # of human beings on the planet earth rather than the # of boxers on the planet earth.

[BITCH ASS]

Ali would certainly have to adapt his style and gameplan for this fight, but given his intellect which was incredibly high, his athletic attributes, his chin, and his heart, I believe that he would find a way to win.

We're talking about arguably the greatest heavyweight of all times here.

[BITCH ASS]

And the reason why Wlad lost to Corrie Sanders is because Wlad only knows how to fight tall. Against Sanders who was practically the same size and who had superior handspeed, Wlad looked hapless and hopeless.

Even Tony Thompson gave him trouble, and Thompson has terrible boxing skills.

[DudeGuyMan]

I'm generally a proponent of "modern training > old timers" but when you've got Lamon Brewster beating Ali you've gone way the hell too far. And really, the Ali era isn't THAT far in the past. It was only fifteen years ago that a guy from that era got his fat middle-aged ass up off the couch and knocked out the reigning champ.

[Sardu]

Although Wlad is a tremendous physical specimen and undoubtly a well schooled fighter he does not possess the rawboned toughness of hard men like Ali, Foreman, Holmes, his brother Vitaly. Once the going got tough and the bee starts to sting - then what? Will Wlad go into a panic mode or fight back harder? Ali had to dig down deep countless times and came through with flying colors. Wlad is an excellent fighter - the best HW around right now. But he is the best of mediocre bunch. After Ali starts to slip Wlad's jab and consistently land his own jab then I believe this starts to spell the end.

Ali TKO 12 Wladimir Klitschko

[China_hand_Joe]

Corrie Sanders is arguably the most naturally gifted heavyweight to take up the sport there has ever been.

[janitor]

Wladamir would do better against Ali than many all time greats for stylistic reasons.

The fact that Ali is not an uber puncher reduces the pressure on his single outstanding weakness and gives him a lot more leeway.

I would probably give him more chance against Ali than against sombody like Sonny Liston.

That aside he is going to loose.

[Bill Butcher]

Yeah on Fight Night Round 4 if you leave the fuckin analogue stick unattended!

Other than that you need shot with puffy balls of your own shit!:patsch
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bill Butcher]

Corrie Sanders is arguably the most naturally gifted heavyweight to take up the sport there has ever been.

I know you are trying your best to force out dempsey1238 & get your name on my signature (for whatever reason) but please, its not gonna work, just give it up :-(

[cross_trainer]

Why do you keep saying the talent pool is larger? The talent pool is smaller unless you are interested in # of human beings on the planet earth rather than the # of boxers on the planet earth.
Total population is an important factor. Obviously, I have no firm stats (though I've often recommended that Classic compile them). However...

1) Greater average height in the industrialized and industrializing world thanks to improved nutrition

2) Better communications and transportation technology gives promoters, gyms, and boxing fans better access to local talent, and local talent better access to top-flight trainers. Talent development, marketing, and the general organization of the industry (aside from its disunited belts, obviously) have improved. Top fighters simply have more resources at their disposal, recruiters have more resources to locate those fighters early, and they come from across a globalized world.

3) The former Soviet Union is now open for business. Large, formerly untapped chunk of the 1960s-80s world talent pool.

4) Are there any gym statistics that show that boxing's talent pool is significantly smaller in the US than it once was, other than the general idea that all of the talented Americans are in the NBA?

[China_hand_Joe]

Total population is an important factor. Obviously, I have no firm stats (though I've often recommended that Classic compile them). However...

1) Greater average height in the industrialized and industrializing world thanks to improved nutrition

2) Better communications and transportation technology gives promoters, gyms, and boxing fans better access to local talent, and local talent better access to top-flight trainers. Talent development, marketing, and the general organization of the industry (aside from its disunited belts, obviously) have improved. Top fighters simply have more resources at their disposal, recruiters have more resources to locate those fighters early, and they come from across a globalized world.

3) The former Soviet Union is now open for business. Large, formerly untapped chunk of the 1960s-80s world talent pool.

4) Are there any gym statistics that show that boxing's talent pool is significantly smaller in the US than it once was, other than the general idea that all of the talented Americans are in the NBA?

The talent pool in America is smaller, we have less good heavyweights from America.

The talent pool in the East is now larger, as a result we have 2 Ukrainians now who could beat any pre-1980s HW.



Why have there never been any worthwhile Western European HWs?

[China_hand_Joe]

I know you are trying your best to force out dempsey1238 & get your name on my signature (for whatever reason) but please, its not gonna work, just give it up :-(

Are you seriously going to claim that fat bastard wasn't a supremely talented guy?

If Henry Cooper could knock Ali down once in 2 fights, then Sanders with a bit of luck could take him early. Sure he loses 4 out of 5 fights to Ali (only due to conditioning and lack of schooling, but there danger is there and the talent is there.

[McGrain]

1) Greater average height in the industrialized and industrializing world thanks to improved nutrition

And stuffing that greater height into a smaller weight classes due to improvements in weight making technology/changes in weight-making rules. But so what? Rules are rules. If Sugar Ray Robinson is "matched" with Antonio Margarito (seen as an tall modern ww...listed by boxrec as being the same height as Sugar), surely they don't get to weigh in under their own rules? Either both will be drained and weighing around 149 or both will be given 24hrs and weighing around 153 and 158?

Fighters in all weight classes have gotten taller, but I think weight-making is the single most signicant factor here, unless you're interested only in HW's. A 147lb man in the ring will be on average only a tiny bit taller than his 1940's counterpart. Modern HW's are taller.

2) Better communications and transportation technology gives promoters, gyms, and boxing fans better access to local talent, and local talent better access to top-flight trainers. Talent development, marketing, and the general organization of the industry (aside from its disunited belts, obviously) have improved. Top fighters simply have more resources at their disposal, recruiters have more resources to locate those fighters early, and they come from across a globalized world.

There needs to be. The number of boxing clubs is dwindling, and fast. The number of gyms is dwindling, and fast. The number of promoters is dwindling, and fast. The number of trainers are dwindling, and fast.

Ken Buchanan could get top drawer training in his neighbourhood as a boy. Now? I don't know.

3) The former Soviet Union is now open for business. Large, formerly untapped chunk of the 1960s-80s world talent pool.

There were less active boxing liscenses in the world in 2002 than there were in Britain at the end of the second world war. I understand things have picked up since then, but bottom line speaks loudest, USSR doesn't matter.

4) Are there any gym statistics that show that boxing's talent pool is significantly smaller in the US than it once was, other than the general idea that all of the talented Americans are in the NBA?

Other than the above, I don't have any firm statistics. Nor do I have statistics for # of boxing gyms, # of boxing specific venues, just over and again anecdotal evidence that they are being shut down. Even Joe Frazier's gym was shut down.

[johnmaff36]

Although overall the top HWs have become worse overall, Wlad bucks that trend.

Ali has no way whatsoever to beat a prime Wlad.

Jab, jab, jab, right from a safe distance, with no knockout power to worry about.
ha ha ha. are you serious? wlad isnt even the best fighter in his family. I do agree that he just about beats ali in a close points decision- but then again, ali is 67yrs old

[cross_trainer]

There were less active boxing liscenses in the world in 2002 than there were in Britain at the end of the second world war. I understand things have picked up since then, but bottom line speaks loudest, USSR doesn't matter.

This is exactly the kind of stat I'm looking for. Do you have a source you could give me?

(Cox's Corner once mentioned comparative numbers of boxing clubs in the US now and in the past, but I don't think he listed a source).

[cross_trainer]

Why have there never been any worthwhile Western European HWs?

Aside from Schmeling and Ingo? My guesses would be:

1) Not as popular there until recently

2) WWII left them devastated while the US boxing industry was able to recover quickly due to the large captive market and number of people who boxed in the army

3) By the time it became popular, Europe's greater income equality prevented the rise of the comparatively poor, marginalized areas that generally produce boxers. Most of them come from Eastern Europe, where the situation's still pretty tough.

[McGrain]

This is exactly the kind of stat I'm looking for. Do you have a source you could give me?

(Cox's Corner once mentioned comparative numbers of boxing clubs in the US now and in the past, but I don't think he listed a source).


I originally read that in a newspaper article, but I do actually have a hard copy at the house. It's in War Baby.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[cross_trainer]

I originally read that in a newspaper article, but I do actually have a hard copy at the house. It's in War Baby.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Excellent. Thanks, McGrain. :good

[McGrain]

No bother.

[IntentionalButt]

Wladimir Klitschko beta, or Wladimir Klitschko 2.0, stable release version (® 2003 Kronk Inc.)??

Ali circa Liston? RITJ? FOTC? Spinks?

Details, CT!

[cross_trainer]

Wladimir Klitschko beta, or Wladimir Klitschko 2.0, stable release version (® 2003 Kronk Inc.)??

Ali circa Liston? RITJ? FOTC? Spinks?

Details, CT!

Ali versus the versions of Klitschko from the second round of each of his last fifteen fights. That way, we keep swapping Klitschkos until Ali gets tired.

On a more serious note, Ali from the Cleveland Williams fight vs. Klitschko from the Chagaev fight.

[dezbeast]

As much as I love Ali, I believe the most likely outcome is that Wlad decisions him. I don't think he dominates him though. I see the bout being fairly competitive.

[PetethePrince]

Wlad can't go 15 rounds with Ali's output, speed, mobility. Ali's unbelievable reflexes. Even watch the Bugner fight when he's past his prime to see how he deals with speed himself. Ali will outbox the shit out of him. Sure Wlad jab might cause some trouble but Ali gets around it. Ali is superior in virtually every department except a jab and some power. Wlad is mechnical, robotic, and not aggressive enough. He needs to be aggressive, and if he tries to he will get countered. Ali probably TKO's him toward the later stages of the fight. Wlad stamina and ability to take punches whether in accumulation or one punch power has never been impressive. In a 12 round fight, Ali wins at least 8-4.

Ali vs Vitali is even worse for than Wlad. Wlad stylistically should trouble Ali more (Although I see an Ernie Terrel type situation occurring. Except, Ali takes his opponent and his abilities even more seriously). Vitali can't and won't get off on 60's Ali. Not happening. He loses an embarrassingly one sided decision. In a 12 round fight it might go 10-2. In a 15 round fight maybe 12/13-2/3. So much for Vitali's win/loss round ratio.

[Brit Sillynanny]

Ali never had strength ???? Numerous fighters,Ken Norton among them,testified that Muhammad was the strongest fighter they'd ever faced.


The idiot you are responding to doesn't know shit about boxing or anything else.

The fool wears Joe Calzaghe jock straps and sees some comparative between Chris Byrd and Ali. Yeah, they are VERY SIMILAR punchers. :lol:

[RobMan]

I can't see Wladimir catching him. Ali is too smooth in his prime. He'd dodge Klitschko and out point him comfortably. Maybe even hurt him and stop him. He had underrated power. Without a doubt he can hurt Wlad with a shot he didn't see coming. Ali all the way

[djanders]

I can see Ali now...showing up at the televised signing with a rock'em sock'em robot in hand...calling Wlad the mechanical man. :yep

[Bummy Davis]

It boils down to mindset...Vlad would be one of the hardest opponents for Ali to beat. He had more overall experience,ability, joined with power and Jab combined than any of Alis opponents...Still I see a prime Ali prevailing but lets face it Vlad was more of the overall package jab,speed,power,movement than Liston,Foreman,Lyle,Norton,Quarry,Bonevena,Frazier but Vlad would not put the pressure on like Frazier and Norton....still what big man of Vlad's skill did Ali fight

[KO byBRIGGS]

Even though this thread is worthless I have to say Sultan Ibragimov's style could make anyone look bad he is just ackward in the ring.

[lefthook89]

It boils down to mindset...Vlad would be one of the hardest opponents for Ali to beat. He had more overall experience,ability, joined with power and Jab combined than any of Alis opponents...Still I see a prime Ali prevailing but lets face it Vlad was more of the overall package jab,speed,power,movement than Liston,Foreman,Lyle,Norton,Quarry,Bonevena,Frazier but Vlad would not put the pressure on like Frazier and Norton....still what big man of Vlad's skill did Ali fight

this is worthy of fighting weights klitschko quote of the week, dude are you serious??? foreman, liston, lyle would absolutely massacre wlad!! they hit five times harder and are 100 times tougher. get out of here klit hugger, this is why klit huggers should stay in the general forum.

[EleventhHour]

Ali is top 3 heavyweights of all time, Wlad will be lucky to make top 15 or 20. How is this even a question.

[Farmboxer]

Vlad would have knocked Ali out. Angelo Dundee had to cut Ali's glove to give him time to recoup from a punch by Henry Cooper!

[Buddy87]

It doesn't matter who's greater than who in these what if scenerio's it depends on there styles and styles make fights. Muhammad Ali fought guys that weren't really boxers but were punchers and sluggers, we seen what happened to Ali against the first time he faced Leon Spinks and came back from learning.

The Klitschko's and Ali have one thing in common and that's to fight in an upright position, what Ali brings to the table is his light feet, he dances while maintaining upright and will be bouncing throughout the fight until he gets tired or snapped in the head to cause his equilibrium to fade in the later rounds from getting hit.

I can say one thing, if Muhammad Ali does the rope a dope with Wladamir Klitschko, it's tea off time and it will get through, look up the Ruslan Chagaev fight at the end of the 8th round for reference.

[johnmaff36]

This has to be a piss-take! I respect everyones opinion as thats what this site is all about, but to even mention them in the same ring is either delusional or shows a huge void in their boxing judgement

[ChrisPontius]

this is worthy of fighting weights klitschko quote of the week, dude are you serious??? foreman, liston, lyle would absolutely massacre wlad!! they hit five times harder and are 100 times tougher. get out of here klit hugger, this is why klit huggers should stay in the general forum.

Yes, Lyle hit five times harder than Wlad, but only once in his entire career managed to stop a ranked opponent. (:lol:)

Foreman and Liston hit hard as hell, but so does Wlad and he's very good at landing his best punch consistently. For instance, Machen and Young pretty much got away from Liston/Foreman shots all night, while every single Wlad opponent has been stunned, hurt, knocked down or out - with the exception being Sanders, whom he never landed on.

[RonnieHornschuh]

If Norton can outbox Ali, then Wlad can do it as well. For me it's a pick 'em fight.

[Bummy Davis]

this is worthy of fighting weights klitschko quote of the week, dude are you serious??? foreman, liston, lyle would absolutely massacre wlad!! they hit five times harder and are 100 times tougher. get out of here klit hugger, this is why klit huggers should stay in the general forum.

I am far from a klit hugger but I am not a new born like you seem to be.. I have seen all of the heavyweights fight in the Ali era and beyond. Vlad Klitschko would be one of the most complete fighters that Ali fought.
I seen Quarry own Lyle in the Garden. Foreman may be a harder fight for Vlad or Vlad may be his hardest fight but Ali was a different story. Do you think Terrell was better than Vlad or Carl Mildenburger or Oscar Bonavena or Doug Jones. There is one thing to be a Klit hugger and another to be a hater or a child and I think you are both. Now, go wipe the snot off your nose