Best fouler of all time

[janitor]

Note I do not mean the most prolific fouler but the one that made the most inteligent and efective use of illegal tactics.

[Jack Dempsey]

Fritzie Zivic

[Drew101]

Eusebio Pedroza
Fritzie Zivic
Sandy Saddler
Joel Casamayor

[UpWithEvil]

Fritzie Zivic

That was the first name that came to my mind. There wasn't a trick in the book that he couldn't exploit, or even improve on.

[janitor]

Fritzie Zivic

Good choice.

In some ways Zivic get's a bad rap for being a dirty fighter. He didn't break the rules any more than most of his peers he just did it better.

It was a bad idea to foul the Croat Comet because he would respond in kind and make a much better job of it than you.

[Jack Dempsey]

Good choice.

In some ways Zivic get's a bad rap for being a dirty fighter. He didn't break the rules any more than most of his peers he just did it better.

It was a bad idea to foul the Croat Comet because he would respond in kind and make a much better job of it than you.

I'd love to have seen the Zivic v Davis bout:yep

[Sonny's jab]

Maxie Rosenbloom made a career out of slapping with an open glove, and his record speaks for itself. He could outpoint virtually everyone.

[Bigcat]

The obvious choice would be Golota..

The Classic choice would be George Foreman ..

The one to look out for is Henry Akinwande.. His early career fights and Amateur bouts are full of sly elbows and headbuts.

One i think you may all agree with is Lennox Lewis..

remember his knockout of Mike simuwelu , look at the finishing two shots , now rewind it and watch it slowed down.. the second to last shot to the face was actually a smashing elbow to the nose..

The elbow to the top of Levi Billups head in Las Vegas in 1991..

The Open palm of the glove in Frank Bruno's face near the end of thier Cardiff fight in 1993.

His slamming shots in the clinch to the back of Jorge Dacolas head at the Royal Albert Hall in his first headlining fight around 1990..

Lennox i loved you to bits but you could be a cold callous bastard when you had to be.. Gary Mason found that out big time......

God bless y'all.....

[Drew101]

Holy Crap, I forgot to mention Bernard Hopkins!

[heerko koois]

Evander Holyfield.............

[janitor]

The obvious choice would be Golota..


I have to say that he is not the first person who comes to mind if we are talking about inteligent fouling. More an example of ill advised use of ilegal tactics.

[Duodenum]

Zivic is the obvious universal choice. He never lost a match by DQ. (Was Ali ever even docked a point for his head pulling?)

Sammy Serrano was no choir boy. The Black Mamba only dethroned Serrano after El Torbellino nearly took Mayweather out with a well placed elbow. (Roger's lucky he didn't get his skull fractured.) Anybody remember how Sleazy Sam would begin a match by heading out to ring center, as if to touch gloves, only to belt his suckered opponent when he lowered his gloves in kind? (Hey Buddy, WBA rules. Come out fighting!)

Marciano had an outstanding follow though on his rights, with his elbow! (It would have been poetic irony if Charles had won their rematch, by splitting Marciano's nose with Rocky's own favorite foul tactic.)

Carnera used a superb backhand against Loughran, and took away Tommy's legs by stepping on his feet. Primo survived 11 rounds against Max Baer, in large part by pulling Baer down with him whenever Baer landed another KD punch. (Primo wasn't stupid. When Sharkey dropped him with a FOTC Frazier type hook in their first meeting, Carnera immediately got back up, then back down to one knee to take the benefit of a full count. The referee, losing his head, resumed the count all over at one, causing Sharkey to go ballistic at the referee, and buying Primo even more time.) Da Preem also won two decisions against Uzcudun, himself a HW contender so filthy that Dempsey gave him a 20 round verdict over Baer, on account of Paulino's superior fouling!

Chuck Wepner. Legendary long-time New Jersey HW Champion inspired Stallone, in outfouling Ali without losing points. Took out contender Randy Neumann with a head butt in their rubber match, en route to his date with Ali. Like Zivic, never lost a bout by DQ. Finally retired by the combination of referee/Marciano elbow victim Jersey Joe Walcott, and filthy brawling Wepner idolizer, and heir to the NJ Throne, future Holmes challenger Scott Frank. Unlike Wepner with Ali, Frank failed to outfoul Larry. For that matter, neither did former Norton victimizer Scott LeDoux. (That would make Larry's record at least, :good:good - 0, and LeDoux's record only :good - :good.)

As anybody who's ever attended the IBHOF induction ceremonies already knows, Gene Fullmer and Joey Giardello have been the very best of friends ever since their Dancing with the Stars ballroom performance draw in 1960. (Being fully mature adults, they've long since buried the hatchet over that fiasco......in each others heads!)

[bladerunner]

Harry Greb.

[Luigi1985]

Tony Galento

[JimmyShimmy]

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of Greb's style relied on bending the rules of his day in order to get the upper hand.

[buzzsaw]

Eusebio Pedroza
Fritzie Zivic
Sandy Saddler
Joel Casamayor


And the Winners are....

[mcvey]

Note I do not mean the most prolific fouler but the one that made the most inteligent and efective use of illegal tactics.
Gotta go with old Fritzie on this one,he must have been crafty as he was never DSQd!

[Bummy Davis]

Fritzie Zivic


:good :good :good Fritzie did the laces, thumbs,knees and elbows, he was the master fouler, got Bummy so mad that he kicked him in the balls

[JohnThomas1]

Michael Spinks at 175 is definitely the most underrated for mine. Sensational elbows behind errant left hooks and overhand rights at times.

[jyuza]

Evander "HeadButt" Holyfield.

[Raggamuffin]

Maxie Rosenbloom made a career out of slapping with an open glove, and his record speaks for itself. He could outpoint virtually everyone.

So does his nickname "Slapsie" Maxie

[young griffo]

Fenech was a decent fouler in his day.He mixed his punches with some subtle headbutts,shoulder charges,and forearm jolts.
I recall even when getting pounded in the Nelson rematch he still attempted to turn it around by trying to knee Azumah in the knackers.

[JohnThomas1]

Fenech was a decent fouler in his day.He mixed his punches with some subtle headbutts,shoulder charges,and forearm jolts.
I recall even when getting pounded in the Nelson rematch he still attempted to turn it around by trying to knee Azumah in the knackers.

Shit, how did i forget Fenech.

[Duodenum]

I can't believe you've all overlooked the fabled George "Elbows" McFadden! Kayoed Joe Gans in 23 rounds, and like Zivic, never lost a match by DQ.

[janitor]

I can't believe you've all overlooked the fabled George "Elbows" McFadden! Kayoed Joe Gans in 23 rounds, and like Zivic, never lost a match by DQ.

Acording to some reports Gans eye was dislodged from its socket.

[McGrain]

Acording to some reports Gans eye was dislodged from its socket.


Fuck.

[hdog]

Zivic is the obvious universal choice. He never lost a match by DQ. (Was Ali ever even docked a point for his head pulling?)

Sammy Serrano was no choir boy. The Black Mamba only dethroned Serrano after El Torbellino nearly took Mayweather out with a well placed elbow. (Roger's lucky he didn't get his skull fractured.) Anybody remember how Sleazy Sam would begin a match by heading out to ring center, as if to touch gloves, only to belt his suckered opponent when he lowered his gloves in kind? (Hey Buddy, WBA rules. Come out fighting!)



I was young but I remember the Serrano- Juan Valdez match as an extremelyy dirty fight.

[Minotauro]

Fritzie Zivic his repuatation for fouling speaks for itself.
Holyfield the guy put headbutts on the map ask Tyson and Rahman.
Henry Armstrong used to throw a lot of low blows and elbows and look how much he achieved.

[Dempsey1238]

It just said best fouler of all time. It didn't say in the ring.

Panama Lewis

Well he was pretty poor since he got caught. Sure it ruin a fighter for good, but being caught takes him off the list.

[Duodenum]

Acording to some reports Gans eye was dislodged from its socket.Janitor, didn't that happen in Gans's loss to Frank Earne?

[Duodenum]

I was young but I remember the Serrano- Juan Valdez match as an extremelyy dirty fight.Yeah, Sam attacked Valdez from behind after a round ended, swinging a forearm at the back of Juan's neck, in response to something Valdez had said. Serrano scored a flash KD early. Through the first half of the match especially, the referee had to keep them from continuing after each other when the rounds were over. A lot of heat between them, for some reason. (It looked to me as though Valdez wasn't willing to put up with any of Sammy's usual $h!t.) Too bad Sammy didn't move up to try Duran. (Wouldn't that have been a filthy exchange?)

[janitor]

Janitor, didn't that happen in Gans's loss to Frank Earne?

It did.

I stand corected.

[Duodenum]

It did.

I stand corected.That's okay. Just be sure to set me straight the next 50 times I screw up! (It'll take me at least that many errors before I find you making another, considering the rate I'm going at!)

[Bill1234]

Zivic for me.

[cuchulain]

BHop. Best of the last 30 years.

[jyuza]

BHop. Best of the last 30 years.

Hopkins ? Can't see why.

[Duodenum]

It did.

I stand corected.Well, guess what? In my very next post, I made a much worse mistake. I referred to Duran recovering his reputation from the damage he did to himself in Montreal! So you see, now I've been infected with the same virus. (Is the the beginning of something contagious?)

[Holmes' Jab]

Golota or Ruiz?

[brownpimp88]

cheato triniwrap

[Calroid]

Holmes was supposed to be quite handy with the thumb....Or so I've heard.

[barneyrub]

wlad klitschko and his clamping onto the opponent as seen in the Peter fight where 10 minutes of the fight was taken up by Wlad hugging him.

[JohnThomas1]

I still like Spinks, hell barely anyone even knows he was dirty.

[OLD FOGEY]

Good choice.

In some ways Zivic get's a bad rap for being a dirty fighter. He didn't break the rules any more than most of his peers he just did it better.

It was a bad idea to foul the Croat Comet because he would respond in kind and make a much better job of it than you.

Oh, come on. Zivic wrote articles in his later years for magazines such as the Police Gazette and True Magazine bragging about how good he was at fouling, with such nuggets as how to use low blows to throw an opponent off his game, how not only to open eye cuts with butts but how to get away with it by following with quick flurries to cover the butt damage with punches, to always know exactly where the referee is to make certain his view is obscured by your opponent's body when butting, how Zivic used the laces to widen a cut once he'd opened one with a butt, etc. Zivic knew the rules down to the last crossed t and dotted i, which he used to his advantage. He was proud of a sneak punching an opponent who offered to touch gloves after a slip. Zivic pointed out that the rules stipulated touching gloves only at the bell for the last round. As he put it, why give a sucker an even break.

If Zivic has a bad rap, he certainly has no one but himself to blame. His image as a foul fighter was an image he sought and cultivated.

[janitor]

Oh, come on. Zivic wrote articles in his later years for magazines such as the Police Gazette and True Magazine bragging about how good he was at fouling, with such nuggets as how to use low blows to throw an opponent off his game, how not only to open eye cuts with butts but how to get away with it by following with quick flurries to cover the butt damage with punches, to always know exactly where the referee is to make certain his view is obscured by your opponent's body when butting, how Zivic used the laces to widen a cut once he'd opened one with a butt, etc. Zivic knew the rules down to the last crossed t and dotted i, which he used to his advantage. He was proud of a sneak punching an opponent who offered to touch gloves after a slip. Zivic pointed out that the rules stipulated touching gloves only at the bell for the last round. As he put it, why give a sucker an even break.

If Zivic has a bad rap, he certainly has no one but himself to blame. His image as a foul fighter was an image he sought and cultivated.

All that shows is that he was more methodical about it than anybody else.

Zivic had to defend himself against other fighters of the period who used ilegal tactics and he was just a bit better at it than them.

[round15]

Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Andrew Golota, George Foreman and John Ruiz.

Holyfield developed a reputation for headbutting during his cruiserweight years. Qawi and DeLeon were victims of the Holyheadbutt before Tyson, Foreman and Riddick Bowe.

Lennox Lewis is notorious for leaning on his opponent's back with his entire body and left hand, while throwing illegal uppercuts underneath. The job he did on Michael Grant should have gotten him a point deduction, and he did the same thing vs Holyfield and Tyson. Lewis is also a dirty fighter for using his dreadlocks as a weapon in the clinches, trying his best to open up and make his opponents cuts' larger.

Andrew Golota is self-explanatory. I think his is more a case of concentration and frustration. Besides the low blows to Riddick Bowe in both of their fights, I saw Golota try to take a chunk of shoulder out of an opponent with his teeth.

George Foreman was a master at pushing and shoving off opponents which is an illegal tactic. A fighter can't push his opponent off within a clinch. Unless the referee allows both fighters to punch out of the clinch, shoving an opponent is illegal and George got away with it many times in his career because of his strength.

John Ruiz is the poorest excuse for a heavyweight fighter that I've ever seen. This guy hits well after the bell, throws low blows, elbows and he headbutts as well. The worse thing about Ruiz IMO is that he always seems to be looking for the ref to defend him and give him a cheap victory, hoping for a disqualification of the opponent. I've seen Ruiz throw low blows on the ref's blind side only to see his opponent retaliate with the same body shot. The result, the opponent gets a point taken away and Ruiz gets by this cheezy tactic. Only Ruiz puts on his best academy award performance and acts like he's been fouled. He's definitely a better actor than boxer, as far as I'm concerned.

Others worthy of mention, Ali for holding and hitting behind the head. Sonny Liston for the repeated use of illegal substances and eye complaints from opponents.

[Minotauro]

Fritzie Zivic was a great fouler although he was also a very good fighter which is sometimes shadowed by the fact he fouled so much. Holyfield was great at headbutting and Marciano was also a dirty fighter.

[red cobra]

Right there at the top is Fritzie Zivic. His thumbs alone should have been encased in tiny boxing gloves.

[red cobra]

Zivic's standing in boxing history is also helped out by the fact that he was an excellent and smart fighter as well. His strategy against Henry Armstrong was brilliant in itself. He fought on the retreat only to stop suddenly and lash out in short bursts of offense. He was a smart, smart fighter whose use of dirty tactics was something of an equalizer against those whose physical gifts may have been greater, much like, in a very different way, how Joey Maxim's defensive skills and brains helped him out likewise.

[ironchamp]

Bernard Hopkins. He fouled casually and intermittingly almost as though it was part of a combination. He wasnt excessive but he was a very wiley character.

[Luigi1985]

Battling Nelson

[TIGEREDGE]

bernard hopkins is a master at winning dirty

[AREA 53]

Whilst i certainly think he was a fabulous fighter at his peak, and certainly not the worst Fouler of All Time, John Conteh was habitually "careless" with his head, and it won fights for him, certainly he would top Holyfield in this regard

Also Tony Gelento could i understand be something of a rulebender on occassion, Lou Nova would i understand second this !

[SgrRyLeonard]

Fritzie Zivic is the first fighter I thought of when reading the title of this thread. As far as active fighters go, Bernard Hopkins gets my vote.

[Thread Stealer]

The obvious choice would be Golota..

The Classic choice would be George Foreman ..

The one to look out for is Henry Akinwande.. His early career fights and Amateur bouts are full of sly elbows and headbuts.

One i think you may all agree with is Lennox Lewis..

remember his knockout of Mike simuwelu , look at the finishing two shots , now rewind it and watch it slowed down.. the second to last shot to the face was actually a smashing elbow to the nose..

The elbow to the top of Levi Billups head in Las Vegas in 1991..

The Open palm of the glove in Frank Bruno's face near the end of thier Cardiff fight in 1993.

His slamming shots in the clinch to the back of Jorge Dacolas head at the Royal Albert Hall in his first headlining fight around 1990..

Lennox i loved you to bits but you could be a cold callous bastard when you had to be.. Gary Mason found that out big time......

God bless y'all.....

I've never seen the Simuwelu fight, but it's a good think for Lewis that Mike Acey had honor and didn't try to pull an acting job, otherwise Lewis might've had an early DQ loss when he hit Acey 3 times when Acey was down.

Oh, and Michael Grant found out how dirty Lewis could be too.

During the Calzaghe-Bika fight:

Lennox: That was a dirty move, I wouldn't have done that.

Kellerman: Michael Grant might disagree that you wouldn't have done that.

(Long pause)

Lennox: No comment.

[Bigcat]

The best one from Lennox that is underrated was probably that elbow to the dome of Levi Billups.. It was a really tough one.. Nasty bastard..

End of the first round i think....

[rodney]

Fritzie Zivic

Fritzie the best by far.

[good right hand]

what about,

mysterious billy smith

and

al bummy davis


i thought those where the greatest dirty fighters of all time?

[RoccoMarciano]

Ezzard Charles and those elbows he liked to land :)

[hitman_hatton1]

Sandy Saddler

yeah he's my choice.

[Russell]

Ezzard Charles and those elbows he liked to land :)

Marciano was a far dirtier fighter than Charles.

Live with it.