Ali-Liston I, II - fixed?

[Trixie]

I was having a discussion last night with a friend who is a casual boxing fan (loves Floyd Mayweather, thinks Haye is the next Ali, so, you know, very casual). Anyway, he had read a book and was arguing with me to the death, that Ali-Liston I and II were both confirmed to have been fixed.

I admittedly do not know the intricacies of these bouts but am comfortable in saying that I believe 99.9% that Ali-Liston I was not fixed. I could however be talked into believing that the second fight was. Although I still do not believe that it was.

What do the old and wise classic forum say on the matter? Thanks:happy

[ripcity]

neither were fixed

[Boxed Ears]

Liston was a bully who exposed himself as nothing more, mentally. Great fighter but that was his mentality and his strength and Ali ripped it away. I'm not saying it couldn't have been fixed, because the elements surrounding both parties were there but I think that's what happened. Liston was exposed psychologically.

[Longhhorn71]

Liston was a bully who exposed himself as nothing more, mentally. Great fighter but that was his mentality and his strength and Ali ripped it away. I'm not saying it couldn't have been fixed, because the elements surrounding both parties were there but I think that's what happened. Liston was exposed psychologically.


I think I remember that the Liston Group got a piece of Clay's earnings over some future fights if Clay won in fight #1.

(contracts were written like that back then.....Braddock got a bunch of money off Joe Louis' fights)

[McGrain]

I'm satisfied II was fixed.

One is far more debatable. The purses were with-held whilst an investigation was ongoing and there was a lot of circumstantial evidence, though nothing you could convict upon. I'd put it this way - if the fight had happened in 1900 and no film of the first fight existed most people today would be satisfied that it was fixed.

[JohnThomas1]

IMO I was fine and 2 crooked.

[KTFO]

neither were fixed



......and then a gorgeous elb came and took you away to Oz.

[MrSmall]

no

[KTFO]

'Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to this Show. Let's get ready to rumblllllleeeee!'

[flamengo]

Only one possible aspect of the second fight may have been crooked.. Liston.
He turned it up in the first fight, refusing to get of his stool and looked ridiculous flailing around the canvas in the second bout. Perhaps he turned it up more-so, refusing to recieve the horrible beating that was to follow.

Fixed???? Neither.

[KTFO]

Wow, what a show. Brilliant performance.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[young griffo]

Liston came to win the first fight but got beaten fair and square.Fair enough.

But Liston dogged it in the rematch and looked for the easiest way out possible.

And to think some people rate Liston above the likes of Frazier and Marciano.They'd rather die than go out like that hence I'd favour both to beat Sonny on heart alone.

[RockyJim]

If you like Ali...then chances are...you'll say no to the fix question....both fights
look to have a touch of Vince McMahon to them...

[boxerca]

I think the second fight might have been fixed but it doesn't matter. Ali would've most likely beat him, like he did in their first fight.

[Duodenum]

The first fight certainly wasn't fixed. When his upstart challenger was blinded, Liston went right after him. Reportedly, he threw his shoulder out when reaching for his elusive target, and X-rays confirmed the injury.

I believe the knockdown in the rematch was on the level. Larry Merchant saw it, and the back of Liston's head jerks back sharply on impact. At the outset of round three in Miami Beach, Sonny was nearly dropped to a knee by a similar blow before getting driven back to the ropes. If Ali had immediately gone to a neutral corner, Liston would have likely beaten the count. (He told his wife that the knockdown was legitimate, but that it wasn't a knockout punch.)

Personally, I don't think the outcome in either bout was prearranged on Liston's part, but there's plenty of room for dissent from that view, and I have no great quarrel with arguments to the contrary.

[Longhhorn71]

Pre-Fight #2 was shakey....originally scheduled for big city Boston, then ending up in Lewiston Maine when the "word" got out on the street.

The Black Muslims were hanging around Ali.....Malcom X was killed on 2/21/65, & Fight #2 was May 25, 1965. Some say Liston was afraid he might get shot in the ring.

I don't think this was a closed circuit fight..I think I saw it live on ABC home TV on Wide World of Sports.

[Bill Butcher]

I was having a discussion last night with a friend who is a casual boxing fan (loves Floyd Mayweather, thinks Haye is the next Ali, so, you know, very casual). Anyway, he had read a book and was arguing with me to the death, that Ali-Liston I and II were both confirmed to have been fixed.

I admittedly do not know the intricacies of these bouts but am comfortable in saying that I believe 99.9% that Ali-Liston I was not fixed. I could however be talked into believing that the second fight was. Although I still do not believe that it was.

What do the old and wise classic forum say on the matter? Thanks:happy

The 1st fight clearly was legit, havent made my mind up about the 2nd one, we`ll never know.

[BUDW]

Something is fishy

[round15]

First fight was legit.

Second fight was fixed because Sonny had debts to the mob at that time, and the evidence is right there when he decided to get up after the phantom punch, and then simply keeled over perhaps saying "screw this" in his mind. Sonny had more than enough strength to get up, and wasn't really hurt by that punch. It was a good acting job though.

[turpinr]

First fight was legit.

Second fight was fixed because Sonny had debts to the mob at that time, and the evidence is right there when he decided to get up after the phantom punch, and then simply keeled over perhaps saying "screw this" in his mind. Sonny had more than enough strength to get up, and wasn't really hurt by that punch. It was a good acting job though.:goodand:good

[Stonehands89]

The first fight was on the level. Liston either threatened or open-hand slapped Clay at the Thunderbird and Clay was visibly frightened. Liston, by one account, said "Now I own that punk." He trained casually and assumed that he'd get the fleet-footed, chinny (at the time, Clay was considered by no one to have a great chin) kid out of there.

The second fight. A great regret for me is that Ali had to undergo an emergency hernia operation three days before the fight in November, 1964. Liston was in optimum shape for a man his age and was highly-motivated to take "his" title back.

The Lewiston, ME match has the following shadows over it:

1. Liston had dissipated almost immediately after the November match was called off. He ended up in the clink on Christmas. He also aged 6 months.

2. There is no doubt whatsoever about his being connected to underworld figures. Eddie Futch tells the story of his being told that his fighter, Don Jordan, needed to throw a fight or else. On the eve of the fight, Jordan and Futch switched hotel rooms. There was an ominous knock on the door and Futch opened it to see ...Sonny Liston. Liston seemed confused. Futch wasn't. He believed that Liston was sent to persuade Jordan to do as he had been told. Don't call me on the details, that's the best I can remember on the fly.

As to what happened in Maine, it wasn't a "fix" in the strict sense. Ali was not complicit in the least. By the way, the idea that Liston feared the Black Muslims is just plain silly. They were a little mysterious cult. A little infighting cult who couldn't even control its own members. Liston had ties to something far older, far more serious, and far more dangerous -La Cosa Nostra.

That famous picture that everyone loves with Liston at Ali's feet is funny. Do you know what Ali is screaming at him? "Get up you yellow dog! You weren't hit!" I have no doubt that Liston took a dive. The guy had a granite chin and it is simply unlikely that Ali could summon the force to drop Liston in the first round. The idea that Ali would knock out Liston in round one is laughable. Ali has exactly 2 first round KOs in his career.... Liston and Jimmy Robertson, a last-minute sub who was 1-2.

The trajectory of the remainder of Sonny's career could confirm that no one believed that Liston was legit, but it could also confirm that the wiseguys cashed in on him and abandoned him. He ended up overseas for a while and never got another shot, though he bopped his way back into contention despite his alcoholism and scant training. That last win over Wepner turned heads.

[darling dame]

Watch the strange case of Sonny Liston, also watch LISTON Fights vs.WILLIAMS then watch Ali fights ,punches arent thrown same way????

[Napoleon]

Second fight definatly looks fixed.

[turpinr]

The first fight was on the level. Liston either threatened or open-hand slapped Clay at the Thunderbird and Clay was visibly frightened. Liston, by one account, said "Now I own that punk." He trained casually and assumed that he'd get the fleet-footed, chinny (at the time, Clay was considered by no one to have a great chin) kid out of there.

The second fight. A great regret for me is that Ali had to undergo an emergency hernia operation three days before the fight in November, 1964. Liston was in optimum shape for a man his age and was highly-motivated to take "his" title back.

The Lewiston, ME match has the following shadows over it:

1. Liston had dissipated almost immediately after the November match was called off. He ended up in the clink on Christmas. He also aged 6 months.

2. There is no doubt whatsoever about his being connected to underworld figures. Eddie Futch tells the story of his being told that his fighter, Don Jordan, needed to throw a fight or else. On the eve of the fight, Jordan and Futch switched hotel rooms. There was an ominous knock on the door and Futch opened it to see ...Sonny Liston. Liston seemed confused. Futch wasn't. He believed that Liston was sent to persuade Jordan to do as he had been told. Don't call me on the details, that's the best I can remember on the fly.

As to what happened in Maine, it wasn't a "fix" in the strict sense. Ali was not complicit in the least. By the way, the idea that Liston feared the Black Muslims is just plain silly. They were a little mysterious cult. A little infighting cult who couldn't even control its own members. Liston had ties to something far older, far more serious, and far more dangerous -La Cosa Nostra.

That famous picture that everyone loves with Liston at Ali's feet is funny. Do you know what Ali is screaming at him? "Get up you yellow dog! You weren't hit!" I have no doubt that Liston took a dive. The guy had a granite chin and it is simply unlikely that Ali could summon the force to drop Liston in the first round. The idea that Ali would knock out Liston in round one is laughable. Ali has exactly 2 first round KOs in his career.... Liston and Jimmy Robertson, a last-minute sub who was 1-2.

The trajectory of the remainder of Sonny's career could confirm that no one believed that Liston was legit, but it could also confirm that the wiseguys cashed in on him and abandoned him. He ended up overseas for a while and never got another shot, though he bopped his way back into contention despite his alcoholism and scant training. That last win over Wepner turned heads.:goodthats a realy great post

[johnmaff36]

The first fight was on the level. Liston either threatened or open-hand slapped Clay at the Thunderbird and Clay was visibly frightened. Liston, by one account, said "Now I own that punk." He trained casually and assumed that he'd get the fleet-footed, chinny (at the time, Clay was considered by no one to have a great chin) kid out of there.

The second fight. A great regret for me is that Ali had to undergo an emergency hernia operation three days before the fight in November, 1964. Liston was in optimum shape for a man his age and was highly-motivated to take "his" title back.

The Lewiston, ME match has the following shadows over it:

1. Liston had dissipated almost immediately after the November match was called off. He ended up in the clink on Christmas. He also aged 6 months.

2. There is no doubt whatsoever about his being connected to underworld figures. Eddie Futch tells the story of his being told that his fighter, Don Jordan, needed to throw a fight or else. On the eve of the fight, Jordan and Futch switched hotel rooms. There was an ominous knock on the door and Futch opened it to see ...Sonny Liston. Liston seemed confused. Futch wasn't. He believed that Liston was sent to persuade Jordan to do as he had been told. Don't call me on the details, that's the best I can remember on the fly.

As to what happened in Maine, it wasn't a "fix" in the strict sense. Ali was not complicit in the least. By the way, the idea that Liston feared the Black Muslims is just plain silly. They were a little mysterious cult. A little infighting cult who couldn't even control its own members. Liston had ties to something far older, far more serious, and far more dangerous -La Cosa Nostra.

That famous picture that everyone loves with Liston at Ali's feet is funny. Do you know what Ali is screaming at him? "Get up you yellow dog! You weren't hit!" I have no doubt that Liston took a dive. The guy had a granite chin and it is simply unlikely that Ali could summon the force to drop Liston in the first round. The idea that Ali would knock out Liston in round one is laughable. Ali has exactly 2 first round KOs in his career.... Liston and Jimmy Robertson, a last-minute sub who was 1-2.

The trajectory of the remainder of Sonny's career could confirm that no one believed that Liston was legit, but it could also confirm that the wiseguys cashed in on him and abandoned him. He ended up overseas for a while and never got another shot, though he bopped his way back into contention despite his alcoholism and scant training. That last win over Wepner turned heads.
S69, that was a really good post. Pretty much sums it up IMO. IF the 2nd fight was fixed then id bet my last penny Ali knew nothing of it. He was definitely hit, but he 'swallowed' it when he fell down again after 'trying ' to get up. Mind you, he was on his feet gettin the head punched off him when the fight was eventually stopped

[prime]

Beyond a reasonable doubt, neither fight was fixed.

Watching the first fight is enough to see a very dangerous champion throwing and landing murderous punches on his ultimately superior challenger. The evidence of the fight itself should outweigh what in the end is nothing but mere rumor, however titillating and endless.

Mort Sharnik: "After the fight, I went with Sonny to St. Francis Hospital, where they stitched him up. Jack Nilon [Liston's manager] and I were the only ones with him. Nobody else was there. Sonny looked like the loneliest person in the world. They X-rayed him and put in sutures. And let me tell you, if anyone thought the fight was fixed, this guy was beaten up. His face was all swollen, chopped, and chewed up. In a way, he'd quit, but only after the fight was lost. He quit because he knew he was going to get knocked out, probably in the next round, which was what Cassius had predicted.

Nilon and I were standing, talking over Sonny, while he was lying on one of those metal tables. All Sonny said was, 'That's not the guy I was supposed to fight. That guy could punch!' Then Nilon looked at me and asked, 'What in the world will we do with Sonny?'"

The second bout is messier, but the charge of “Fix!” doesn't fit.

First, and for all time, there was a punch. And it was vintage Ali at his best. A corkscrew right square on the jaw of his extended foe. It stunned Liston and floored him. Watch the slo-mo.

What transpired next is subject to everlasting interpretation, but, again, beyond a reasonable doubt, Liston could have easily beat the count. For whatever reason, then and there he quit, resorting to somersaulting around on the canvas and going out with a whimper.

A “fix” would include Ali, a religious zealot who puntiliously disclosed the secrets of his magic tricks and refused to fix as much as a meeting with a wrestler late in his career.

So, did La Cosa Nostra make Liston take a dive? Did Liston bet against himself? This makes no sense. Sonny Liston had been the Mob’s business in boxing under majority contract for four years, and a favorite to focus and dethrone the brash, underrated Ali in a rematch. The smart money was on the Bear, nine-to-five, at Lewiston. After all, there is no better business than winning.

As for the pro-Elijah Muhammad faction’s threatening Liston, there is no evidence of it and, in any case, Liston had his own underworld ties to fall back on. The Nation was marching on well before the heavyweight champion fell in their lap; Ali’s staying champion was not vital to their interests to the point of killing off his conqueror.

Sports Illustrated certainly saw, and dismissed, the hoopla as early as its subsequent story on the fight itself. [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Liston, two years after the fight: “I can tell you what happened there. Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I was down but not hurt, but I looked up and saw Ali standing over me. Now there is no way to get up from the canvas that you are not exposed to a great shot. Ali is waiting to hit me, the ref can’t control him. I have to put one knee and one glove on the canvas to get up. You know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do, but you can’t tell what a nut is going to do, and Ali is a nut.”

Beyond a reasonable doubt, neither fight was fixed.

[Bummy Davis]

Even Floyd Patterson took Ali's best...Sonny was the only 1 punch Ko Ali ever had and in Rd 1....The first fight looked legit and Sonny could have pulled a shoulder from reaching but far from a couragious effort on Sonnys part...These 2 fights define how Sonny reacted when opposed...of yea and a kid named Leotis Martin..now that was No fix

[Bummy Davis]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Now this is a KO

[Bummy Davis]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Stonehands89]

....

First, and for all time, there was a punch. And it was vintage Ali at his best. A corkscrew right square on the jaw of his extended foe. It stunned Liston and floored him. Watch the slo-mo.
...
Beyond a reasonable doubt, neither fight was fixed.
Beyond a reasonable doubt, Liston took a dive.

The corkscrew right square on the jaw was what Ali and Dundee later termed the "anchor punch." And the anchor punch is a figment of their combined, posterity-focused imaginations. Dundee made a career out of this stuff. He's a legend-builder, or a story-teller, depending on where you stand.

Ali's legs were out of position. They were crossed. You don't generate much leverage when your legs are crossed. It's as easy as that. The shot was an arm punch. Sure, it landed. Sure he turned it around, but it was a nothing punch. When Ali was set to punch, in position, he still couldn't be counted on to drop Sonny, despite that speed. Liston could take a big shot, Cleveland Williams proved that forever and for all time.

[PetethePrince]

What do people think the second fight was fixed? How so? Liston got hit and went down. To me, it's obvious that he was stunned but could've gotten up. But him rolling around the floor was a way for him to beg to get the fight over. He just didn't want more. That this guy was crazy, and just stopped. How was it fixed? Did Liston get threatened by the NIA? Mob? Who knows... people couldn't accept the first result but were people worried enough to have to have it fixed? Maybe some corruption, but Liston just gave in. The Nate Fleisher issue was just him interjecting with an inexperienced ref. Walcott just got manipulated and didn't have the knowledge that he was the authority. At least or thought that Nate had a good point.

The second fight was weird. But where was the fix? Is fix the right word?

[PetethePrince]

Liston came to win the first fight but got beaten fair and square.Fair enough.

But Liston dogged it in the rematch and looked for the easiest way out possible.

And to think some people rate Liston above the likes of Frazier and Marciano.They'd rather die than go out like that hence I'd favour both to beat Sonny on heart alone .

:happy

Especially the end part. I don't understand how some of our best posters rate Liston anywhere from 3-6. Above some of the greats like Frazier and Marciano. Just feels wrong...

[Stonehands89]

Liston was indeed a 9-5 favorite at Lewiston. He lost in a way that would be about as likely then as Manny Pacquiao getting blown out in one minute by Floyd Mayweather in March. NO ONE would have conceived of Liston losing by a first round knockout even after Miami. Look at it from the eyes of Carbo and co. Liston was getting older and slower. He showed that he had a dog in him. He was a friggin alcoholic -at least, by then.

So they cashed him out. It's the smart thing to do. They told him to fall down ...in round one no less, and then placed big money bets on Ali.

That is anything but inconceivable.

[groove]

the punches you don't see sometimes are the ones that knock u down even tho they look a lot weaker than other shots fighters can take. surprise, quick shock factor. liston was unbalanced over-reaching coming in when the punch landed and he went down. after that god knows what happened but he went down cuz of ali's punch. walcott shoulda let the fight continue cuz he wouldn't start the count until ali went to a neutral corner and this didn't happen. both liston and ali were fighting again after this so the fight shoulda continued but it was stopped.

[techks]

Ali was just too fast for Liston. He knew that so he looked for a way out in both fights. The only one that was possibly fixed was the second one but as stated above the punch you don't see usually drops you.

[PetethePrince]

That famous picture that everyone loves with Liston at Ali's feet is funny. Do you know what Ali is screaming at him? "Get up you yellow dog! You weren't hit!" I have no doubt that Liston took a dive.

Nobody, nobody has accounted for Ali saying this. Everyone believes he says "Get up you bum." Watch the video of the punch. Liston head definitely snaps back. There's no way that Liston didn't get hit and I believe he did. Was he hurt? A little... did he get shook up that bad to be Koed? Hell no. Liston after the fight looks like a man that knows he has shamed himself. He looks like a man of guilt, a man with regret. Liston went down, but then rolled around. Maybe Liston could've took the punch without going down if his head was more focused... who knows. However, the punch did connect. That is for sure.

[PetethePrince]

Beyond a reasonable doubt, neither fight was fixed.

Watching the first fight is enough to see a very dangerous champion throwing and landing murderous punches on his ultimately superior challenger. The evidence of the fight itself should outweigh what in the end is nothing but mere rumor, however titillating and endless.

Mort Sharnik: "After the fight, I went with Sonny to St. Francis Hospital, where they stitched him up. Jack Nilon
[Liston's manager] and I were the only ones with him. Nobody else was there. Sonny looked like the loneliest person in the world. They X-rayed him and put in sutures. And let me tell you, if anyone thought the fight was fixed, this guy was beaten up. His face was all swollen, chopped, and chewed up. In a way, he'd quit, but only after the fight was lost. He quit because he knew he was going to get knocked out, probably in the next round, which was what Cassius had predicted.

Nilon and I were standing, talking over Sonny, while he was lying on one of those metal tables. All Sonny said was, 'That's not the guy I was supposed to fight. That guy could punch!' Then Nilon looked at me and asked, 'What in the world will we do with Sonny?'"

The second bout is messier, but the charge of “Fix!” doesn't fit.

First, and for all time, there was a punch. And it was vintage Ali at his best. A corkscrew right square on the jaw of his extended foe. It stunned Liston and floored him. Watch the slo-mo.

What transpired next is subject to everlasting interpretation, but, again, beyond a reasonable doubt, Liston could have easily beat the count. For whatever reason, then and there he quit, resorting to somersaulting around on the canvas and going out with a whimper.

A “fix” would include Ali, a religious zealot who puntiliously disclosed the secrets of his magic tricks and refused to fix as much as a meeting with a wrestler late in his career.

So, did La Cosa Nostra make Liston take a dive? Did Liston bet against himself? This makes no sense. Sonny Liston had been the Mob’s business in boxing under majority contract for four years, and a favorite to focus and dethrone the brash, underrated Ali in a rematch. The smart money was on the Bear, nine-to-five, at Lewiston. After all, there is no better business than winning.

As for the pro-Elijah Muhammad faction’s threatening Liston, there is no evidence of it and, in any case, Liston had his own underworld ties to fall back on. The Nation was marching on well before the heavyweight champion fell in their lap; Ali’s staying champion was not vital to their interests to the point of killing off his conqueror.

Sports Illustrated certainly saw, and dismissed, the hoopla as early as its subsequent story on the fight itself. [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Liston, two years after the fight: “I can tell you what happened there. Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I was down but not hurt, but I looked up and saw Ali standing over me. Now there is no way to get up from the canvas that you are not exposed to a great shot. Ali is waiting to hit me, the ref can’t control him. I have to put one knee and one glove on the canvas to get up. You know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do, but you can’t tell what a nut is going to do, and Ali is a nut.”

Beyond a reasonable doubt, neither fight was fixed.

This is what I believe.

[PetethePrince]

Beyond a reasonable doubt, Liston took a dive.

The corkscrew right square on the jaw was what Ali and Dundee later termed the "anchor punch." And the anchor punch is a figment of their combined, posterity-focused imaginations. Dundee made a career out of this stuff. He's a legend-builder, or a story-teller, depending on where you stand.

Ali's legs were out of position. They were crossed. You don't generate much leverage when your legs are crossed. It's as easy as that. The shot was an arm punch. Sure, it landed. Sure he turned it around, but it was a nothing punch. When Ali was set to punch, in position, he still couldn't be counted on to drop Sonny, despite that speed. Liston could take a big shot, Cleveland Williams proved that forever and for all time.

He didn't see it and Liston was coming in a little careless with his head down and got caught. He went down. Maybe from embarrassment and complete discouragement he rolled around and quit. He had quit in him so why not. Do I smell fix? Is overtly a fix? No... not to me at least.

He showed that he had a dog in him. He was a friggin alcoholic -at least, by then.

So they cashed him out. It's the smart thing to do. They told him to fall down ...in round one no less, and then placed big money bets on Ali.

That is anything but inconceivable.

Liston was in optimum shape for a man his age and was highly-motivated to take "his" title back.

Your story is getting a little inconsistent now Stonehands.

I like your story, it's really interesting. Especially the "Just go down in 1 round and we'll collect." Don't you think there would be some way to see or know about the bets made by his team or the people around him? Okay, maybe not. But there is a little thing we need called evidence before something becomes beyond a reasonable. If this were done in a court room there is no way this could be found guilty (On behalf of throwing the fight). It's basically a conspiracy theory at this point. Fishy stuff, no doubt but that doesn't change alleged from alleged and speculation from speculation.

The first fight was so harshly reacted upon that they had an investigation. People think the shoulder injury was non-legit. But this is bullshit. It was legit. Liston did injure his shoulder which can be seen from a Cat-Scan in the FBI report. That's how serious this got. To that level. So when Liston II happened... obviously it was forgone and they wanted nothing to due with Liston. It could be easier to accept, but there was no motivate to investigate that fight. I suppose.

[Stonehands89]

Nobody, nobody has accounted for Ali saying this. Everyone believes he says "Get up you bum." Watch the video of the punch. Liston head definitely snaps back. There's no way that Liston didn't get hit and I believe he did. Was he hurt? A little... did he get shook up that bad to be Koed? Hell no. Liston after the fight looks like a man that knows he has shamed himself. He looks like a man of guilt, a man with regret. Liston went down, but then rolled around. Maybe Liston could've took the punch without going down if his head was more focused... who knows. However, the punch did connect. That is for sure.
I didn't make up the statement. Whether or not it is verbatim is besides the point. It is pretty clear to me that Ali was angry because it looked like Liston was taking a dive and he didn't want to be tainted.

I've seen the video of the punch and discussed it above. No one is arguing that Liston wasn't hit. Was the shot enough to drop him -considering that Ali was out of position, that the punch was an arm punch, that Ali was not a power-puncher? I'd say no.

I recognize that reasonable minds may see things differently, but the fight was clearly, clearly suspicious. Liston's behavior... not Ali's.

[Stonehands89]

He didn't see it and Liston was coming in a little careless with his head down and got caught. He went down. Maybe from embarrassment and complete discouragement he rolled around and quit. He had quit in him so why not. Do I smell fix? Is overtly a fix? No... not to me at least.
A "fix" isn't necessarily a "dive."

Your story is getting a little inconsistent now Stonehands.
Not in the least.

Did you know that the rematch was originally scheduled for November, '64? Liston was in optimum fight -in November 1964. Read the post again because I think you misunderstood it.

I like your story, it's really interesting. Especially the "Just go down in 1 round and we'll collect." Don't you think there would be some way to see or know about the bets made by his team or the people around him? Okay, maybe not. But there is a little thing we need called evidence before something becomes beyond a reasonable. If this were done in a court room there is no way this could be found guilty (On behalf of throwing the fight). It's basically a conspiracy theory at this point. Fishy stuff, no doubt but that doesn't change alleged from alleged and speculation from speculation.

The first fight was so harshly reacted upon that they had an investigation. People think the shoulder injury was non-legit. But this is bullshit. It was legit. Liston did injure his shoulder which can be seen from a Cat-Scan in the FBI report. That's how serious this got. To that level. So when Liston II happened... obviously it was forgone and they wanted nothing to due with Liston. It could be easier to accept, but there was no motivate to investigate that fight. I suppose.
I would never assert my suspicions as factual. Neither should you.

[itrymariti]

If Liston threw the second fight, why did he do it in the first round? Surely, that would suspicion. If I was going to take a dive, I'd at least go a few rounds first to make it look convincing. Maybe Liston was genuinely put down by that right, and just decided that that was a good opportunity to lay down and call it quits. But if that shot was powerful enough to floor him, why is it treated with such contempt: "That was a nothing punch, it couldn't have legitimately stopped Liston!" If Liston was hurt enough to go down by a seemingly nothing shot off the back foot, it's not too big a leap to think that he might have been counted out.

Also, bear in mind that Liston did beat the ref's count. If he was quitting, why would he get up like that rather than lay down?

What about Ali on Cleveland Williams? That first right hand was little more than a flick of the hand, and it had Williams on the floor for real. Stranger things have happened in boxing.

Maybe Liston was throwing it, but in such a blatant way as to make it clear that he "was" throwing it. Like when you let somebody win with such a piss-poor acting job that everybody realises you're just toying. Maybe he couldn't bear to actually have people think Ali had genuinely beaten him, and wanted to make it look like a blatant fix.

It's a complicated affair.

[PetethePrince]

I didn't make up the statement. Whether or not it is verbatim is besides the point. It is pretty clear to me that Ali was angry because it looked like Liston was taking a dive and he didn't want to be tainted.

That's completely different then calling him "Yellow" and saying "I didn't hit you." Of course he was worried it would look like a dive. Liston dived on himself, that taints either way. Doesn't imply a fix.

I've seen the video of the punch and discussed it above. No one is arguing that Liston wasn't hit. Was the shot enough to drop him -considering that Ali was out of position, that the punch was an arm punch, that Ali was not a power-puncher? I'd say no.To be KOed is one thing. Dropped is another. Ali got some hip leverage, too.

I recognize that reasonable minds may see things differently, but the fight was clearly, clearly suspicious. Liston's behavior... not Ali's.I can agree absolutely with this. I don't see how Liston couldn't have very easily quit on himself. Maybe someone cashed in on it, but the truth is he DID get up. That's a point not often discussed. He was down, discouraged and embarrassed and rolled around but finally DID get up. The whole Nat Fliesher interjection stopped the fight.

Not in the least.

Did you know that the rematch was originally scheduled for November, '64? Liston was in optimum fight -in November 1964. Read the post again because I think you misunderstood it.

Ah, my bad. Apologize for that.

I would never assert my suspicions as factual. Neither should you.

No, but you said it was beyond a reasonable doubt that Liston took a dive. I just don't agree with this. Unless "dive" is quitting on yourself. Which I don't think you meant. I think there is too much speculation rather than concrete evidence for it to be beyond a reasonable doubt. That is all...

[Bokaj]

I didn't make up the statement. Whether or not it is verbatim is besides the point. It is pretty clear to me that Ali was angry because it looked like Liston was taking a dive and he didn't want to be tainted.

I've seen the video of the punch and discussed it above. No one is arguing that Liston wasn't hit. Was the shot enough to drop him -considering that Ali was out of position, that the punch was an arm punch, that Ali was not a power-puncher? I'd say no.

I recognize that reasonable minds may see things differently, but the fight was clearly, clearly suspicious. Liston's behavior... not Ali's.

I agree.

But - when one looks closely on Liston going down it looks quite legit. When he pitches forward, he puts his hands on the canvas much in the way one does when instinctevely trying to regain one's balance.

Once he's on the canvas it looks a lot less authentic, though.

[McGrain]

The fight was basically acknowledged as being fixed. Blinky and Carbo were on their way out of the boxing business for good. Liston was their last serious asset. The men were either in the clink or on the run.

Liston was banned from fighting in the US behind this fight.

The Ring perpetually assaulted Liston after this, openly calling for his not to be included in title/contender style fights. What happened to Sonny was totally unparalleled. It's a matter for debate only away from the ringside.

[Stonehands89]

That's completely different then calling him "Yellow" and saying "I didn't hit you." Of course he was worried it would look like a dive. Liston dived on himself, that taints either way. Doesn't imply a fix.
Ali was reponding with anger to Liston's tank job. Yelling that he is yellow, that he wasn't hit, is all the same to me as "Hey, don't you take a dive!"

Again, I never asserted that it was a fix.

To be KOed is one thing. Dropped is another. Ali got some hip leverage, too.
The shot was a nothing shot. We can go around all day and I will remain unconvinced that the knockdown was legit.

I can agree absolutely with this. I don't see how Liston couldn't have very easily quit on himself. Maybe someone cashed in on it, but the truth is he DID get up. That's a point not often discussed. He was down, discouraged and embarrassed and rolled around but finally DID get up. The whole Nat Fliesher interjection stopped the fight.
He got up when it would have been absolutely ridiculous to continue the charade. The guy ran out of material. Liston was clearly stalling on the floor to get counted out.

No, but you said it was beyond a reasonable doubt that Liston took a dive. I just don't agree with this. Unless "dive" is quitting on yourself. Which I don't think you meant. I think there is too much speculation rather than concrete evidence for it to be beyond a reasonable doubt. That is all...
That was a poetic response to prime's assertion that "beyond a reasonable doubt, neither fight was fixed. Hey, if I were on the jury and was presented with all the circumstances, the poor performance by Liston on the canvas, etc., I'd probably vote "dive."

A man who takes a "dive" isn't always quitting on himself. A dive is done for self-serving reasons (ex. to get a title shot next time) or out of fear of the guys who drive black sedans and chew on toothpicks. Seldon is an example of a fighter who may have quit on himself against Tyson.

[Stonehands89]

The fight was basically acknowledged as being fixed. Blinky and Carbo were on their way out of the boxing business for good. Liston was their last serious asset. The men were either in the clink or on the run.

Liston was banned from fighting in the US behind this fight.

The Ring perpetually assaulted Liston after this, openly calling for his not to be included in title/contender style fights. What happened to Sonny was totally unparalleled. It's a matter for debate only away from the ringside.
Well said.

[PetethePrince]

Ali was reponding with anger to Liston's tank job. Yelling that he is yellow, that he wasn't hit, is all the same to me as "Hey, don't you take a dive!"

Again, I never asserted that it was a fix.


The shot was a nothing shot. We can go around all day and I will remain unconvinced that the knockdown was legit.


He got up when it would have been absolutely ridiculous to continue the charade. The guy ran out of material. Liston was clearly stalling on the floor to get counted out.


That was a poetic response to prime's assertion that "beyond a reasonable doubt, neither fight was fixed. Hey, if I were on the jury and was presented with all the circumstances, the poor performance by Liston on the canvas, etc., I'd probably vote "dive."

A man who takes a "dive" isn't always quitting on himself. A dive is done for self-serving reasons (ex. to get a title shot next time) or out of fear of the guys who drive black sedans and chew on toothpicks. Seldon is an example of a fighter who may have quit on himself against Tyson.

Fair enough. It's one of those things in boxing we may never really know for sure I guess.

[McGrain]

Well said.

It's also worth noting that there was now no paper trail from Liston to Carbo at the time. Any money working as a % (and Liston had supposedly sold anything between 50 and 150% of himself at this time) that they were due would have to be "collected". He was an asset approaching valueless given their respective situations.

[prime]

Beyond a reasonable doubt, Liston took a dive.

The corkscrew right square on the jaw was what Ali and Dundee later termed the "anchor punch." And the anchor punch is a figment of their combined, posterity-focused imaginations. Dundee made a career out of this stuff. He's a legend-builder, or a story-teller, depending on where you stand.

Ali's legs were out of position. They were crossed. You don't generate much leverage when your legs are crossed. It's as easy as that. The shot was an arm punch. Sure, it landed. Sure he turned it around, but it was a nothing punch. When Ali was set to punch, in position, he still couldn't be counted on to drop Sonny, despite that speed. Liston could take a big shot, Cleveland Williams proved that forever and for all time.

I sum up Lewiston as: legit knockdown; quit job by Sonny.

Poor Dundee! But you are wrong. He made a career out of training the greatest heavyweight of all time, from second fight to finish.

And poor Ali! But he himself already addressed your doubts at the press conference where he calmly explains the physics of Sonny's demolition: two clashing forces = knockdown capability. Ali made a career out of it.

As you very well know, Ali was not an in-your-face madman, wide-stanced, banging away with both hands at close range. He would get you from the outside, from where he could tag you but you couldn't reach him. And here he did it effectively and artistically.

[Stonehands89]

I sum up Lewiston as: legit knockdown; quit job by Sonny.
This stance has always baffled me. I think MY position is bad enough in terms of conspiracy. But worse still is the idea that Liston was "legitimately knocked down" by a nothing punch and then decided, "ah, well, I can't beat this kid, so I'll pretend I can't get up. Maybe this audition will get me on Dick Van Dyke."

I'm not so sure that those who hold this position know how this stuff worked when the wiseguys were in the shadows. I can tell you this much -it didn't work like you propose.

My position is that Liston took a dive in the first round because he was told to. And you don't say "no" to those guys.

So, what is your position....? That Liston was being honest? That he went down from a good, clipping shot and that "Ali is crazy and I'm afraid to get up with him standing over me"...? It just doesn't work.

Dundee spread the myth that Liston was an ex-con and the only fellas that cons in the clink fear are the nut-jobs. And almost everyone still holds this nonsense up as if it's part of the historic record.

Poor Dundee! But you are wrong. He made a career out of training the greatest heavyweight of all time, from second fight to finish.
You forget his very similar script during the Leonard-Duran bouts. And even Classic posters are still propagating those myths too.

And poor Ali! But he himself already addressed your doubts at the press conference where he calmly explains the physics of Sonny's demolition: two clashing forces = knockdown capability. Ali made a career out of it.
Ali was very astute about legacy. I have to keep from giggling like a little girl when I see him on film carrying on about that "Anchor Punch." He would have history believe that he laid a trap for that bear and intended to knock him down. Talk about magic. The thing is, though, history believed him. Ali is the greatest heavyweight of all times, in my estimation, but he was honestly full of it.

As you very well know, Ali was not an in-your-face madman, wide-stanced, banging away with both hands at close range. He would get you from the outside, from where he could tag you but you couldn't reach him. And here he did it effectively and artistically.
He did nothing there but provide an opening for Liston to show the world that he's no Laurence Olivier.

Ali's unorthodox offense that does nothing to prove, confirm, or strengthen the prima facie tank job that Liston pulled after a nothing shot.

[Stonehands89]

Fair enough. It's one of those things in boxing we may never really know for sure I guess.
Absolutely. However, there are things that we know, and then there are things that we know.

Of course, "know" remains speculation, objectively speaking.

[Muchmoore]

Dundee spread the myth that Liston was an ex-con and the only fellas that cons in the clink fear are the nut-jobs. And almost everyone still holds this nonsense up as if it's part of the historic record.



:lol::good

[Casey91]

I don't believe either fight was fixed,I mean come on liston tried to cheat to win by K.O. in the 1st fight if you watch the round you can see liston actually caught ali with a left hook that stunned him,ali said himself later he thinks liston didn't notice he was hurt.In the second fight he clearly caught liston with a right hand that snaped his head but liston was definitely not seriously hurt he just didn't want to get up and take the same beating he took in the 1st fight and as walcott walks away and liston gets up he is cowering down while ali hits him as if he was scared,so IMO I do not believe either was fixed at all.

[PetethePrince]

Absolutely. However, there are things that we know, and then there are things that we know.

Of course, "know" remains speculation, objectively speaking.

Now you're just confusing me. :lol:

[essexboy]

Number two will always be a fix in my eyes. Liston flopping around on the deck like a fish was just embarassing, you could see the ref was like, 'What the fuck is he doing?' Liston was a tough guy, no way was he getting brutally KO'd like that, no offense to Ali, he did what he had to do but I think Liston threw it for sure, for what reason, one can only spectulate.

[groove]

well liston was at the Clay-Jones fight only one year before they fought so i don't think Liston was in anyway scared of ali after watching that fight. i actually watched all 10 rounds last nite and scored it 6-3-1 but 6-4 is a possible score. Clay seemed to slug it out a lot in this fight and not as much movement and yes it was a close fight. i gave him the last 2 rounds. but he relied on that movement v liston.

Talking about the Liston KO. Seems not many here have heard the saying of the punches that you don't see knock you down. I'm not going over that point again - it's in the thread. there's no proof of any big betting pay-outs for this fight so why the fix? liston gave up is more likely. the mob would've been desparate for liston to re-claim the crown - that's where the money is.

[McGrain]

The mob was out of boxing and as i've already pointed out, collecting any % of that money from Liston was now a matter of collecting as no paper trail existed to connect Liston to The Gray (who was locked up anyway). In short, the mob had no interest in Liston as a going concern, either for that fight or after it. All the signs are that all ties were severed before Ali II, likely well before.

[Unforgiven]

The second fight, DEFINITELY fixed.
The first fight, maybe fixed, but probably not.

[Jaws]

My thought on this whole thing is, if the second fight was fixed, why wouldn't they try to make it more realistic? Why such a strange scenario that causes people to raise their eyebrows?

That just doesn't add up to me.

[groove]

i don't know how anyone can think the first fight was fixed unless they were trying to blind Clay to make him win lol and let the black muslims take control of the world title. Folley & Machen had also claimed about having burning eyes in their fights v liston. all this talk is just trying to downplay ali's achievement. liston couldn't handle his speed & movement. he kept hitting thin air - no wonder his shoulder got injured. keep throwing big shots and hitting thin air is not good for you. yeah agree above - that must be the worst fix fight of all-time (u usually try and hide it) - KO1 by ali who was not known as a big puncher. i think the Knockdown punch was legit - what liston did after is open to speculation.

[McGrain]

i don't know how anyone can think the first fight was fixed unless they were trying to blind Clay to make him win lol and let the black muslims take control of the world title. Folley & Machen had also claimed about having burning eyes in their fights v liston.


It would work like this:

1- It was an accident

2- The corner doctored Liston's glove without his say-so

[groove]

BS. liston coulda went down in round 3 easy as ali had hammered him with many combos of punches up to the ropes but he fought back great after that beating. he goes down to a fix from a so-called nothing punch. none of it makes any sense at all.

[McGrain]

BS. liston coulda went down in round 3 easy as ali had hammered him with many combos of punches up to the ropes but he fought back great after that beating. he goes down to a fix from a so-called nothing punch. none of it makes any sense at all.

A fix doesn't allow him to go down in round three. It calls for him to do something specific to match lain bets.

[groove]

well believe whatever you want cuz that is not the truth. ali was a great fighter and he proved it. the bigger the fight the better he was. he was smart & tough. beating liston or foreman was no fluke unless you believe the conspiraters. most picture ali as a runner and a light puncher. how could he beat those monsters. well easy as it happened if you know anything about fighting. liston ploddered until he found the oppening which never happened and foreman gave all until he had nothing left.

[McGrain]

well believe whatever you want cuz that is not the truth. .

Well done for keeping such an open mind.

[groove]

haha good one. ok will give you benefit of doubt. any proof of big money being won on liston retiring after 6th or being ko'd in 1?

[McGrain]

There were no betting irregularities.

Lots of short money on the days running up to the fights on Ali.

Which is exactly what a fix would look like and exactly what Tyson-Holyfield looked like.

[apollack]

From the footage alone, I would say the first fight was not fixed. Ali's style was just the perfect foil to an attacking puncher like Liston. Watch Liston against Whitehurst and Machen, then imagine a guy with much faster feet, much faster hands, head movement, lean backs and clinches, and woila, you have Liston in a world of trouble, as anyone would be with a guy of that speed and talent level. Ali was the Corbett to Sullivan and the Tunney to Dempsey - just had that style that gives the attackers fits.

Second fight - maybe, maybe not. What is clear is that Ali landed really nice rights on Liston in both fights that seemed to stun him, and if I'm not mistaken, Leotis Martin took Liston out with a right, and maybe Marty Marshall dropped him with the same, though I'm not sure. Ali had blazing hand speed and awesome timing. Watch his counter right over the jab of Wililams and Foley - similar shots that dropped Liston. Liston lunges forward with his jab, exposing his jaw with forward momentum (which increases the power of impact if you understand physics), and Ali brings his right up and down over the top of Liston's arm directly onto his chin. Sonny's head buckles from the blow. From the frontal view it doesn't look like much, but there is a side angle view that I have seen that really does show that Ali indeed got his shoulder and body into the punch at the moment of impact. Also, the blazing speed of it caused more of a shock - the old adage that the punch you don't see doing the most damage. Liston did not lay on the canvas out cold, nor did he take the count. He got up and was willing to continue. So, he could simply have been momentarily shocked and dazed and could possibly have recovered. Unfortunately, referee Walcott deprived us of that because he stopped the fight without ever giving Liston a count.

The flip side of this is Ali never had another 1st round KO, and I"m not recalling another fight where he dropped a guy in the 1st round. Also, the way LIston tried to get up and then fell back down did have a bit of a funny appearance about it. Was it an act? Can't know for certain.

Other question is whether he really was dropped, but momentarily decided to quit - not as a pre-fight fix, but rather in the sense that he said to himself 'Oh shit, here we go again,' and decided that he really didn't care anymore. I kind of think this is exactly what happened to Walcott when Marciano dropped him in their rematch. He could have got up, but realized he was in for a tough night, didn't want to go through the long grueling war of the first fight, and decided to get up right when the ref got to ten so he could try to act like he beat the count and stir up some controversy. I also think Carl Williams did the same with Tyson - not immediately responding when the ref asked him if he was okay, closing his eyes and giving that subtle nod 'no' (watch it in slo mo) and then immediately going berserk saying he was okay only after the ref stopped it.

[sweetsci]

Thing is, Liston did get up and he and Ali began fighting again while Fleisher was telling ref Walcott that Liston had been KO'd. That tells me that in Sonny's mind at that moment the fight was still on. If there was indeed a fix, would Liston simply have gone down again at the first opportunity? Of course we'll never know...

Walcott should have let the fight go on, ruling that even though Liston had been down for more than 10 seconds, he (Walcott) chose not to begin the count because Ali hadn't gone to a neutral corner. As it happened, Liston did not get the benefit of an audible count.

[Bioyhh]

Everything about the second fight seems fishy. Sonny sure looked like he was tanking when he was rolling around on the canvas. Given the confusion after the knockdown Liston had to get up: it was obvious that he wasn't knocked cold, so what was he going to do? Had he stayed down, the dive would have been even more obvious. Just as damning is Liston's reaction to the stoppage: he should have been going nuts. He hadn't been counted out, and he looked fully "recovered"; yet when Walcott stopped the fight Sonny just walked away. For whatever reason, Liston did not come to fight that night, and he tanked at the first opportunity. Well, the second, actually: Clay hit him with an overhand right earlier in the round that looked much harder than the "Anchor Punch."

The first fight was legitimate. Clay beat Sonny up, pure and simple.

[prime]

This stance has always baffled me. I think MY position is bad enough in terms of conspiracy. But worse still is the idea that Liston was "legitimately knocked down" by a nothing punch and then decided, "ah, well, I can't beat this kid, so I'll pretend I can't get up. Maybe this audition will get me on Dick Van Dyke."

Sincerely, I marvel at your appraisal of the Phantom Punch as the "Nothing Punch". You have already confessed that nothing under the heavens will dislodge you from this belief. But please indulge me a bit.

Power is the rate at which work is done. At 6'3", 206 lbs., Ali had the fastest hands of any fighter of such heavyweight dimensions. Thus, he was powerful; plus, young, practiced, and blessed with pinpoint timing. And he caught Liston at the fullest extension of his left, thus like a veritable sitting duck. An onrushing Big Cat fell just as Liston did from another "nothing" "tap" from a backpedaling Ali: forward on all fours like an armadillo. In any example in the physical world, two clashing forces will create a proportional impact.

And from my own humble experience with the gloves on, watching Ali's body behind the fist and its visible impact on Sonny's head, I know the punch was a good one.

I'm not so sure that those who hold this position know how this stuff worked when the wiseguys were in the shadows. I can tell you this much -it didn't work like you propose.

My position is that Liston took a dive in the first round because he was told to. And you don't say "no" to those guys.

So, what is your position....? That Liston was being honest? That he went down from a good, clipping shot and that "Ali is crazy and I'm afraid to get up with him standing over me"...? It just doesn't work.

Truth is, no one really knows what, if anything, went on in backrooms prior to the first bell. Without evidence, speculation is all that can be offered, and here one fantasy is as good as another. I personally don't care very much but for the athletic aspect of the matter, on film. My position is Ali was good enough to legitimately floor Liston and give him the chance to do what he had to do.

Dundee spread the myth that Liston was an ex-con and the only fellas that cons in the clink fear are the nut-jobs. And almost everyone still holds this nonsense up as if it's part of the historic record.

You forget his very similar script during the Leonard-Duran bouts. And even Classic posters are still propagating those myths too.

Whoa. As I have quoted above, Liston himself is on record, not poor Dundee, saying exactly that he didn't want to rise because Walcott couldn't control Ali and he was afraid Ali the nut would sucker-punch him on the way up. Watching the film, this is feasible, as Liston never ceases to peek around for Ali when he should have been trying to get up.
Again, without evidence, theories are a dime a dozen. To me the film matches pretty well with the historical record.

No less a sane source than José Torres is on record as follows: "The room was empty. Liston was embarrassed and very depressed. My first question was, 'Did you see the punch?' And he told me, 'Yes, but I saw it too late.' That was it. In boxing, the punch that knocks you out is not the hard punch. It's the punch you don't see coming. And Ali was a master at that. He punched so fast, he didn't give you a chance to prepare for the blow. If Ali had gone to a neutral corner, I don't know if Sonny could have gotten up by ten or not. He never got a proper count, but he was hurt, and I'm not sure he wanted to face Ali. Sonny was afraid of crazy people, and he thought Ali was crazy. Before the fight, he'd told me about his experiences in jail. I'd heard about what happens to prisoners with rape and sodomya, so I'd asked Liston if he'd had problems like that. And he told me no one had done anything like that to him because everyone in prison was afraid of him, but he had been afraid of the crazy prisoners."


Ali was very astute about legacy. I have to keep from giggling like a little girl when I see him on film carrying on about that "Anchor Punch." He would have history believe that he laid a trap for that bear and intended to knock him down. Talk about magic. The thing is, though, history believed him. Ali is the greatest heavyweight of all times, in my estimation, but he was honestly full of it.

He did nothing there but provide an opening for Liston to show the world that he's no Laurence Olivier.

Ali's unorthodox offense that does nothing to prove, confirm, or strengthen the prima facie tank job that Liston pulled after a nothing shot.

The trap is on film, friend, for all to see. Ali threw no jabs and was clearly deploying the tactic of the right hand, nine years before Zaire. And Sonny fell for it.

Without evidence, your dismissal of Ali's serious assertion that he learned a punch used by Jack Johnson cannot carry weight. You say Ali was full of it, but you are saying this about a fighter famous for backing up his words. And here he even only spoke after having definitively declawed the Bear.

[groove]

prxnGjKjxoo

[groove]

323wsdRa7Og

[McGrain]

I don't think anyone would dispute that he was hit with a hard punch. But i'm unsure as to what people think the film proves?

[groove]

tell that to stonehands :)

[Stonehands89]

Sincerely, I marvel at your appraisal of the Phantom Punch as the "Nothing Punch". You have already confessed that nothing under the heavens will dislodge you from this belief. But please indulge me a bit.
Absolutely. You're good and you argue well. I'm not quite as hard-headed as I may appear though. Almost, but not quite!

Power is the rate at which work is done. At 6'3", 206 lbs., Ali had the fastest hands of any fighter of such heavyweight dimensions. Thus, he was powerful; plus, young, practiced, and blessed with pinpoint timing. And he caught Liston at the fullest extension of his left, thus like a veritable sitting duck. An onrushing Big Cat fell just as Liston did from another "nothing" "tap" from a backpedaling Ali: forward on all fours like an armadillo. In any example in the physical world, two clashing forces will create a proportional impact.

And from my own humble experience with the gloves on, watching Ali's body behind the fist and its visible impact on Sonny's head, I know the punch was a good one.
You "know" that the punch was a good one about as much as I "know" that it wasn't. This is about weight of argument, not fact. All of it.

Cleveland Williams? He wasn't nearly as durable as Liston. He had been down at least 8 times by the time he fought Ali and was about half what he used to be. The man got shot by the cops before this bout!

The fact that he went down similarily to Liston is unconvincing as evidence. How else shall a man fall forward? Asking Liston to bounce on his nose like Duran in the Hearns fight is a little much...for example.

Truth is, no one really knows what, if anything, went on in backrooms prior to the first bell. Without evidence, speculation is all that can be offered, and here one fantasy is as good as another. I personally don't care very much but for the athletic aspect of the matter, on film. My position is Ali was good enough to legitimately floor Liston and give him the chance to do what he had to do.
Speculation is all we have. That has been acknowledged. Your position is that "Ali was good enough to legitimately floor Liston Ali and give him the chance to do what he had to do." My position is just as speculative, though I believe more sensible: Liston had to go down and take the count in round 1, he found the opportunity and proceeded to act badly, as if he were too hurt to get up before 10.

You believe that Ali provided the chance to make the dive more believable (if I understand you right), I think that would be one helluva stroke of luck for Liston, and Liston was one unlucky man!

Whoa. As I have quoted above, Liston himself is on record, not poor Dundee, saying exactly that he didn't want to rise because Walcott couldn't control Ali and he was afraid Ali the nut would sucker-punch him on the way up. Watching the film, this is feasible, as Liston never ceases to peek around for Ali when he should have been trying to get up.
Liston had a motive to concoct a story even more than the forward-thinking Dundee and Ali. Liston's 'provided the plot' if you will, and all three had reason to cooperate to make the fight seem on the level.

Just for the record... I'm not one who appreciated Oliver Stone's JFK or any conspiracy theory out there. I don't believe in UFOs, Nessie, Bigfoot, or the Abominable Snowman. That fiasco in Maine, though, struck me and almost everyone else as exactly that... a fiasco. Knowing Liston's well-known connections and problems and history and the reality of the boxing scene around this time, it seems pretty clear to me what seems to have happened.

Again, without evidence, theories are a dime a dozen. To me the film matches pretty well with the historical record.
Okay, but remember that all parties are not going to attach a story that doesn't coincide with the film...

Liston said that he wouldn't get up with Ali standing over him. That doesn't match the film. I don't see a man peeking, I see a man acting.

No less a sane source than José Torres is on record as follows: "The room was empty. Liston was embarrassed and very depressed. My first question was, 'Did you see the punch?' And he told me, 'Yes, but I saw it too late.' That was it. In boxing, the punch that knocks you out is not the hard punch. It's the punch you don't see coming. And Ali was a master at that. He punched so fast, he didn't give you a chance to prepare for the blow. If Ali had gone to a neutral corner, I don't know if Sonny could have gotten up by ten or not. He never got a proper count, but he was hurt, and I'm not sure he wanted to face Ali. Sonny was afraid of crazy people, and he thought Ali was crazy. Before the fight, he'd told me about his experiences in jail. I'd heard about what happens to prisoners with rape and sodomya, so I'd asked Liston if he'd had problems like that. And he told me no one had done anything like that to him because everyone in prison was afraid of him, but he had been afraid of the crazy prisoners."
Liston is not going to tell Torres that he was told to lay down, so it makes perfect sense that he'd say he "never saw" the punch.

Statements about crazy prisoners could have been the source for Dundee's story. The problem with using this to argue that Liston was afraid of Ali is basic. Ali was a civilian, he was not a convicted felon who would eat your liver with fava beans. Dundee remembered Liston yelling "you crazy bastard" when Ali drove up on his lawn. Liston also had a poker in his hand and was walking towards Ali. That's not enough to provide any kind of case that Liston was afraid of Muhammad Ali. no one was afraid of muhammad ali! He never tried to be feared.

Liston's admitting that he was afraid of crazy prisoners has nothing to do with Liston being afraid of a "big-mouthed kid." Ali was not intimidating, and he was not trying to be intimidating -he was trying to psych out Liston by acting like a clown. Liston wrote Clay off as someone "masquerading as a fighter" who he would finish off in 2 rounds.

The trap is on film, friend, for all to see. Ali threw no jabs and was clearly deploying the tactic of the right hand, nine years before Zaire. And Sonny fell for it.
Ali seemed more shocked than anyone that Liston went down. Liston was known to have a granite chin. Ali was circling and moving and countering, laying traps sure, but laying a trap with the expressed purpose to drop him? Nah. I don't buy it. Ali then reacted like a kid on Christmas morning who got a new pony.

Without evidence, your dismissal of Ali's serious assertion that he learned a punch used by Jack Johnson cannot carry weight. You say Ali was full of it, but you are saying this about a fighter famous for backing up his words. And here he even only spoke after having definitively declawed the Bear.
We don't need evidence to dismiss anyone's assertions. And Ali's well-earned status as the greatest of the heavyweights doesn't preclude calling him on his nonsense as much as we rightfully credit him for his prophecies and courage.

...........Jose Torres: "Ali was good for bullshitting himself."

[Stonehands89]

I don't think anyone would dispute that he was hit with a hard punch. But i'm unsure as to what people think the film proves?

tell that to stonehands :smile:
Perhaps I'm all alone in the ESB world, but I would dispute that the shot was hard enough to drop Sonny Liston.

[McGrain]

Perhaps I'm all alone in the ESB world, but I would dispute that the shot was hard enough to drop Sonny Liston.


No no, I don't think it was hard enough to drop Sonny neccessarily. My point was, showing the film just shows Liston getting hit with a hard punch. What would his remit be if he was told to go down in round one? Fall to the first hard punch that connects.

[Mr Butt]

first fight no i dont think so

second fight maybe not sure

[Stonehands89]

No no, I don't think it was hard enough to drop Sonny neccessarily. My point was, showing the film just shows Liston getting hit with a hard punch. What would his remit be if he was told to go down in round one? Fall to the first hard punch that connects.
Got it. And that seems plain to no one but us.

Theoretical, yes, but it seems to be the soundest theory around.

[groove]

u know it's so very easy to be a critic. so easy u wouldn't believe.

[Addie]

It's not even a talking point to me. There's simply no way in hell the first fight was a fix, Ali outclassed him. The phantom punch was a shot that Liston did not see, and it knocked him down. Liston could have gotten up, and the fight could have continued, but if he did, it would have just been a one sided drubbing until he was legitimately knocked out. Liston knew it.

...Ali was on a different plane.

[prime]

Absolutely. You're good and you argue well.

Great compliment from a guy good enough to get paid for what he writes!

I'm not quite as hard-headed as I may appear though. Almost, but not quite!... You believe that Ali provided the chance to make the dive more believable (if I understand you right), I think that would be one helluva stroke of luck for Liston, and Liston was one unlucky man!...eat your liver with fava beans...Ali then reacted like a kid on Christmas morning who got a new pony.

Chuckle, chuckle!

Statements about crazy prisoners could have been the source for Dundee's story. The problem with using this to argue that Liston was afraid of Ali is basic. Ali was a civilian, he was not a convicted felon who would eat your liver with fava beans. Dundee remembered Liston yelling "you crazy bastard" when Ali drove up on his lawn. Liston also had a poker in his hand and was walking towards Ali. That's not enough to provide any kind of case that Liston was afraid of Muhammad Ali. no one was afraid of muhammad ali! He never tried to be feared.

Liston's admitting that he was afraid of crazy prisoners has nothing to do with Liston being afraid of a "big-mouthed kid." Ali was not intimidating, and he was not trying to be intimidating -he was trying to psych out Liston by acting like a clown. Liston wrote Clay off as someone "masquerading as a fighter" who he would finish off in 2 rounds.

You're right about Ali not inspiring fear. Most counterintuitive for the king and thus supposedly baddest of all heavyweights! I believe it was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar who said Ali could knock at anyone's front door at 3 a.m. and people would say, "Hey, look, it's Muhammad Ali!", and come right out. But you wouldn't want Mike Tyson coming to your front porch at three o'clock in the morning.

Of course Liston the champion sniffed at Clay as an opponent! 'Enry's Hammer had just dropped the nut, not to mention the casino incident. But, after six rounds-plus with the guy, Ali had by then grown into Liston's unquestioned superior inside the ring. And, based on Liston's own words I have previously quoted, I consider it perfectly believable that Sonny was wary of the flighty Ali's running over on those wickedly fast long legs and clobbering him while on one glove and knee before the feckless Walcott could do a thing.

- - -

I put forward this tentative consensus: first fight on level; second, an Ali prepared to make a legitimate defense of his crown hits Liston and the latter either decides to quit then and there, or uses the moment to execute a self-prescribed, or otherwise-prescribed, dive.

[Stonehands89]

Great compliment from a guy good enough to get paid for what he writes!
Humbug. For all we know, you're Barney Nagler re-animated. And that goes for another half-dozen or so posters on ESB.

You're right about Ali not inspiring fear. Most counterintuitive for the king and thus supposedly baddest of all heavyweights! I believe it was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar who said Ali could knock at anyone's front door at 3 a.m. and people would say, "Hey, look, it's Muhammad Ali!", and come right out. But you wouldn't want Mike Tyson coming to your front porch at three o'clock in the morning.

Of course Liston the champion sniffed at Clay as an opponent! 'Enry's Hammer had just dropped the nut, not to mention the casino incident. But, after six rounds-plus with the guy, Ali had by then grown into Liston's unquestioned superior inside the ring. And, based on Liston's own words I have previously quoted, I consider it perfectly believable that Sonny was wary of the flighty Ali's running over on those wickedly fast long legs and clobbering him while on one glove and knee before the feckless Walcott could do a thing.

- - -

I put forward this tentative consensus: first fight on level; second, an Ali prepared to make a legitimate defense of his crown hits Liston and the latter either decides to quit then and there, or uses the moment to execute a self-prescribed, or otherwise-prescribed, dive.

I can live with that.

Another illumination not often remembered is how hard Liston trained for the Boston Garden rematch in November, 1964. Ali had a medical emergency three days -THREE DAYS before the fight and the fight was called off. I can't imagine how disappointed Liston was at that news. He's on record as being enormously let down. And Liston wasn't exactly a man of character, a man of great resilience. Tough, strong, powerful, but he suffers in the intangibles category... In the fall of '64, the man was holed up down in South Plymouth at the White Cliffs resort, was pummeling sparring partners and was extra-mean. And then, poof, all that training goes down the drain. Ali himself was sorry for it, but especially sorry for Liston. He (respectfully) brought up his age and ability to get so motivated and inspired again.

Liston absolutely dissipated after that --he was in jail in Denver on Christmas, and just drank like a fish. I think that the weakening tentacles who had him in their grip just cashed in on him and told him to take a dive and washed their hands of him. You're alternative is not implausable though.

And this is all speculative... though interesting.

[Hookie]

no and no

As for the rematch... The ref (Jersey Joe Walcott) should have never listened to Nat Fleischer (who was ringside and pointed out that Liston had been down for more than 10 seconds). It doesn't matter is a fighter is down for 3 days... if the ref is only on 7, than the count is 7.

Liston had gotten up and the fight had continued (Liston didn't throw anymore punches though), Nat started shouting and the fight was stopped.