Donovan "Razor" Ruddock vs. Ken Norton

[KOTF]

The Razor of the Dokes bout vs. the Norton of the Ali I fight

[Addie]

Norton was terrible against punchers, and for single one punch power, Razor was right up there. Norton would have been devastated by the same punch that stopped Dokes, and by a lot of the uppercuts landed on Tyson in both of their fights.

I go with Ruddock by KO5, Norton is winning leading up to the knockout.

[natonic]

Yeah, not saying Ruddock is better, but H2H I don't see this as a good matchup for Norton. Ruddock was actually a decent boxer before he got all power crazy. KO for Ruddock.

[PowerPuncher]

Tough call, I don't buy the theory that Norton gets blasted by every big puncher out there. No he didnt beat a massive puncher but he could do. Ali and Holmes are underrated punchers although not massive bangers and he did very well against both. He was past prime against Shavers/Cooney.

Where do we draw the line with Norton and punchers? Does Danny Williams knock him out too as Williams hits like a truck. What about Bob Foster? What about Michael Spinks? What about Herbie Hide?

[Addie]

Donovan Ruddock was infinitely better than both Hide and Williams. Donovan could dish it out as well as take it, and he could box very well for a big guy. Bad comparisons.

Bob Foster and Michael Spinks never displayed the kind of one punch knockout power that Donovan did at Heavyweight either.

Kenny was an awkward customer, and I see him getting the best of Donovan who'd have probably just been looking for the left uppercut all night long. However, once it lands, and it will eventually, I don't think Norton had the chin to stand up to it. It had Tyson on wobbly legs, and Dokes did well to get out of the ring alive.

[PowerPuncher]

Donovan Ruddock was infinitely better than both Hide and Williams. Donovan could dish it out as well as take it, and he could box very well for a big guy. Bad comparisons.

Bob Foster and Michael Spinks never displayed the kind of one punch knockout power that Donovan did at Heavyweight either.

Kenny was an awkward customer, and I see him getting the best of Donovan who'd have probably just been looking for the left uppercut all night long. However, once it lands, and it will eventually, I don't think Norton had the chin to stand up to it. It had Tyson on wobbly legs, and Dokes did well to get out of the ring alive.

Yes he was better than both, but he wasnt better than Foreman, he might have been better than Shavers but Rudducks left hook is very predictable and Kenny might well have successfully avoided it, Norton also would get better as the fight went on while Rudduck is likely to slow/tire somewhat

I was asking where we draw the line though, Foreman is arguably the best destructive offensive force in HW history and because Norton gets blasted by him and gets blasted way past his prime (after 35) he gets blasted by any puncher. Rudduck himself got blasted out by Lennox and Morrison

[Addie]

Yes he was better than both, but he wasnt better than Foreman, he might have been better than Shavers but Rudducks left hook is very predictable and Kenny might well have successfully avoided it, Norton also would get better as the fight went on while Rudduck is likely to slow/tire somewhat

I was asking where we draw the line though, Foreman is arguably the best destructive offensive force in HW history and because Norton gets blasted by him and gets blasted way past his prime (after 35) he gets blasted by any puncher. Rudduck himself got blasted out by Lennox and Morrison

Past prime got blasted out by Morrison? Watch the fight again. Donovan knocked Morrison down early, and had him badly hurt prior to hetting caught by a left hook from hell. Most Heavyweights wouldn't have even gotten up from that shot. He was past his best anyway, prime Razor kills Tommy.

Prior to getting blasted out by Lewis, a fighter who'd have done something similar to Norton, Razor has fought Tyson twice. Razor took Tyson's best shots unbelievably well, and when he got hit flush and went down, he got back up. He could take a hell of a shot prior to those two wars, and had Tyson hurt multiple times himself.

I didn't see any evidence of Razor getting weaker down the stretch in Tyson II either. in fact, most of his best work got done in the latter rounds.

Norton may end up getting the better of Razor, but I don't think he'd be able to take a clean shot and still be standing. Do I think Norton goes 12 rounds with Razor without taking a solid shot? No...I don't. You may a valid argument regarding Norton's chances against punchers, but Donovan was a beat physically, should have gone to be a titlist..and probably would have done if he didn't fight Tyson twice in 2 absolute wars.

[Bummy Davis]

Rudduck could hit but was also there to be hit and had his share of flaws..Norton could not fight a puncher that backed him up but pressure was not really Rudducks style. Rudduck was also stopped by Tyson,Morrison,Lewis and Jaco...I would lean towards Rudduck because he had that upperhookcut but Norton could get to him 1st in a shootout, both men were KOable

[Beau Geste]

The Razor of the Dokes bout vs. the Norton of the Ali I fight

Norton by UD or TKO. The skill gap between these two was huge. Ruddock was very raw and wide open. No way I see Ruddock winning.

[Russell]

Ruddock stops him.

If a fighter had Ruddock's power but terrible delivery, Norton could get them out of there or go the distance. See the Bobick fight for an example of that.

Ruddock however had a great ability to land his shots from awkward angles, catching his opponents off guard frequently.

Norton isn't going to survive too many of those from nowhere bombs.

[Boxed Ears]

My knee jerk reaction was Norton, but I feel very timid about sticking with either man now that I've taken the comments under consideration. It's true, Ruddock was the real deal. Used to be earmarked for a title-too bad he didn't get it. It'd be a good match. With Norton's strange style it makes it further more complicated to call. Some great fighters had terrible trouble with him and some not so great fighters didn't.

[mr. magoo]

Norton was terrible against punchers, and for single one punch power, Razor was right up there. Norton would have been devastated by the same punch that stopped Dokes, and by a lot of the uppercuts landed on Tyson in both of their fights.

I go with Ruddock by KO5, Norton is winning leading up to the knockout.


I agree with this,


Norton was the better fighter when sized up to the rest of the field... He can't however take too many good shots directly to the chin, and Ruddock's left uppercut would have created a lot of opportunities to catch Ken in his crouching stance.... The styles are all wrong, as are the physical attributes. I can't see Ruddock ever beating Muhammad Ali or Jimmy Young the way that Ken did, but then neither would Foreman or Shavers.... Razor may not be in the same class as George Foreman, but he had all the right tools and stylistic attributes to make life misserable for Norton.. Ken simply did not have the ability to get Ruddock out of there early the way that Lewis did, and he sure as hell can't battle Donoven the distance in the same fashion as Tyson once did, considering the numerous amounts of punishment he'd have to take along the way.

[Mendoza]

Tough call, I don't buy the theory that Norton gets blasted by every big puncher out there. No he didnt beat a massive puncher but he could do. Ali and Holmes are underrated punchers although not massive bangers and he did very well against both. He was past prime against Shavers/Cooney.

Where do we draw the line with Norton and punchers? Does Danny Williams knock him out too as Williams hits like a truck. What about Bob Foster? What about Michael Spinks? What about Herbie Hide?

Norton's chin was certainly vulnerable to big punchers. To make matters worse, he tended to freeze vs. big punchers. Vs Holmes, Ali, Quarry and others, Norton's chin held up well.

I think the fight is Norton's to lose. As long as he sticks to a game plan which doesn't involve unnecessary slugging, he'll win on points.

[Hookie]

Norton was terrible against punchers, and for single one punch power, Razor was right up there. Norton would have been devastated by the same punch that stopped Dokes, and by a lot of the uppercuts landed on Tyson in both of their fights.

I go with Ruddock by KO5, Norton is winning leading up to the knockout.


People say this all the time but let's look at his KO losses.

LKOby8 Jose Luis Garcia- it wasn't really his chin that let him down in this fight. He was 16-0 and fighting in his home state of California. He was cocky and took Garcia lightly. They fought again 5 years later and Norton stopped him in 5.

LKOby2 George Foreman- Foreman had recently done the same to Joe Frazier. No one ever says Frazier had a weak chin.

The other KO losses-

LKOby1 Ernie Shavers in 1979

LKOby1 Gerrie Cooney in 1981

The losses to Shavers and Cooney were when Norton was washed up. Yes, I know that Norton gave Holmes hell in 1978 but this was Norton's last great performance... plus Holmes had an injured arm in this fight.

Between his fights with Shavers and Cooney he struggled with not so great HWs Scott LeDoux (D10) and Randall "Tex" Cobb (WSD12).

Norton also fought-

Muhammad Ali- WSD12, LSD12, and L15

Boone Kirkman- KO7

Jerry Quarry- KO5

Duane Bobick- KO1

and Jimmy Young- WSD15, among others.

[Hookie]

So Ruddock vs. Norton?

Good fight.

Ruddock stands 6'3" with an 82" reach and was solid around 230Lbs.

A prime Norton stands 6'3" with an 80" reach and is ripped under 220Lbs.

I mentioned the highlights on Norton's resume above.

Ruddock was stopped early in his career by David Jaco (LKOby8) and struggled to win a 10 round SD vs. a past prime Mike Weaver. He gained a lot of attention with his brutal KOs over slightly faded versions of Bonecrusher Smith (KO7) and Michael Dokes (KO4).

He had his moments in 2 fights vs. Mike Tyson in '91 (LKOby7 and L12). The first fight was stopped a bit prematurely so they fought a rematch. Overall, Ruddock was down 3 times and suffered a broken jaw vs. Tyson.

Ruddock stopped Phil Jackson and a past prime Greg Page before taking on Lennox Lewis in '92. Ruddock was the favorite and was considered by many the "uncrowned champ" in Tyson's absence. Lewis crushed him inside 2 rounds.

Ruddock didn't do much after this. He was stopped in 6 by Tommy Morrison in '95.

To be fair... you can also say that Ruddock lost to the big punchers (who weren't washed up) he faced as well.

[Hookie]

Who wins and why?

It's a tough pick but I'm going with Norton by decision. Norton was the better boxer overall. Norton had a good jab and bob and weave/cross arm defense/peek-a-boo type style. He had a good jab, hook, and overhand right. He was the more athletic of the two. Norton also had good stamina and was used to going 15 hard rounds.

Chin? I'd lean toward Ruddock but not by a mile like many of you think.

Power? Again it's Ruddock but not by a mile. Norton had good power and a steady pace. Norton had the misfortune of fighting guys with great chins like Ali x3, Young, and Holmes. Foreman had a great chin and awesome power!

I think Ruddock would drop Norton at least once but I think Norton would outbox Ruddock for the most part and win about 7 or 8 rounds. Factor in 1 or 2 KDs for Ruddock and it is a very close fight on the cards. I think Norton would have most of his success in the late rounds.

Maybe the scores would read 114-112 ,114-112, and 113-113 for a MD win for Ken Norton.

[Hookie]

Norton was a good fighter but he is an interesting case. He is a Hall of Famer but some people don't think he deserves to be. He was the WBC HW champ but he went 0-3 in HW World Title fights.

Look closer though...

He went 1-2 vs. Ali but he could just as easily be 3-0 vs. him. Only the 3rd fight was for the HW World Title (1976, most felt Norton won the fight).

He was Leon Spinks mandatory in '78 but Spinks fought a rematch with Ali instead... this resulted in Norton being proclaimed WBC Champ. He lost the title in his first defense (LSD15 Holmes).

He lost a SD to Holmes that could have went either way.

1-3 vs. Ali (x3) and Holmes but just imagine if he had went 4-0 vs. them!!! It could have happened. Like it or not this is part of the reason Norton gets the respect that he gets from many people.

[Sister Sledge]

Norton is pretty underrated. People disregard him because he failed against the bigger punchers. But sdo has Ruddock. I think Norton has better skills and works harder than Ruddock, getting a UD.

[MRBILL]

The Razor of the Dokes bout vs. the Norton of the Ali I fight

Both were flawed, but a prime Ruddock was bigger and tougher than Norton......... Ruddock KO8 Norton........ BUT! This match proves nothing......

MR.BILL:bart

[Hookie]

Both were flawed, but a prime Ruddock was bigger and tougher than Norton......... Ruddock KO8 Norton........ BUT! This match proves nothing......

MR.BILL:bart


What is it supposed to prove except who would win between the two (prime vs. prime)?

[Hookie]

Bigger? not by much

Tougher? based off of what? Sure... Ruddock took some good shots from Tyson (in 2 fights vs. Tyson he was stopped once, went down 3 times (almost 4) and got his jaw broke) but what other big puncher did he stand up to?

The only other people who tested his chin were Lewis (LKOby2) and Morrison (LKOby6).

I think Norton is being grossly underrated these days. Ruddock never lived up to the hype following the Tyson fights.

[Addie]

Tougher? based off of what? Sure... Ruddock took some good shots from Tyson (in 2 fights vs. Tyson he was stopped once, went down 3 times (almost 4) and got his jaw broke) but what other big puncher did he stand up to?

The only other people who tested his chin were Lewis (LKOby2) and Morrison (LKOby6).
Mike Weaver, Bonecrusher Smith, Mike Tyson x2

It's no coincidence his jaw failed him post-Tyson II.

[Hookie]

Mike Weaver, Bonecrusher Smith, Mike Tyson x2

It's no coincidence his jaw failed him post-Tyson II.


Weaver was washed up. Bonecrusher was just about washed up. Dokes was never known as a huge puncher but rocked Ruddock a few times prior to being stopped (despite being past prime).

[Addie]

Weaver was washed up. Bonecrusher was just about washed up. Dokes was never known as a huge puncher but rocked Ruddock a few times prior to being stopped (despite being past prime).

So when a fighter loses a few steps they lose their power too? ...That's a new one.

[Hookie]

Sure, even at that point Weaver and Smith had decent power but they were never able to test Ruddock's chin.

[Addie]

Sure, even at that point Weaver and Smith had decent power but they were never able to test Ruddock's chin.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
4.47min

[Hookie]

Shavers had awesome power but if he couldn't hit a guy enough times cleanly he was pretty ineffective. Just ask Bob Stallings.

[Addie]

Shavers had awesome power but if he couldn't hit a guy enough times cleanly he was pretty ineffective. Just ask Bob Stallings.

So how was Ruddock able to stand up to Tyson's best shots in two fights? You envision Norton seeing 12?

[Hookie]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
4.47min

It wasn't a shot to the chin that put Ruddock down BTW. The video proved my point, Ruddock wasn't hit on the chin very often in this fight but when he was he held on for dear life. It's not like he was walking thru bombs.

Smith was far from prime in this fight. Like I said, Smith still had power but he wasn't able to land as often or as cleanly as he had in the past. Smith wasn't the finisher he once was... had he been Ruddock may not have seen the 3rd round.

So, how on earth did Ruddock last vs. Tyson? Maybe a 1991 Tyson is a little overrated? Also, it's not like Ruddock didn't get stopped in teh first fight. It's not like Ruddock didn't go down or get hurt. Tyson put some hurting on Ruddock but Tyson was a head hunter by this time.

Had Tyson mixed in more body punching in the rematch and used his bob and weave defense a little more... I doubt Ruddock would have went the distance.

[Hookie]

So how was Ruddock able to stand up to Tyson's best shots in two fights? You envision Norton seeing 12?

I don't see Norton lasting the distance vs. Tyson... I just see Norton beating Ruddock by the skin of his teeth

[Hookie]

also... even though the first fight with Tyson was stopped a bit early... I have no doubts Tyson was on his way to stopping Ruddock. Ruddock gets credit for going the distance once vs. Tyson, not twice.

[Hookie]

Ruddock was a good fighter but not a great one. He was limited but vs. non-great fighters he looked good. The wins over Smith and Dokes were impressive but it's not like either man was at his best. The rest of Ruddocks career is not very impressive.