Now Taylor has been beaten...will Americans accept Hopkins is nothing special now?

[China_hand_Joe]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.

[DanePugilist]

They will either ignore your thread or continue deluding themselves(the ones that hadn't called this.

This is a great day... Good thread, CHJ - and cheers, mate.

[Lacyace]

Who's your top 10 P4P right now?

[nervousxtian]

Because Pavlik beat Taylor does not mean Pavlik beats Hopkins.

[China_hand_Joe]

Elite class - Calzaghe, Kessler
B+ class - Pavlik
B class - Taylor
B- class - Hopkins, Mundine

[PrideOfWales]

Kessler would have an absolute field day with Pavlik.

What Taylor couldn't do was stay calm, settle down and pick his punches after the knock down, something that's second nature to Kessler.

[China_hand_Joe]

Because Pavlik beat Taylor does not mean Pavlik beats Hopkins.

Hopkins is like a slower Taylor, with a more solid chin. Of course he loses to Pavlik.

[DanePugilist]

Because Pavlik beat Taylor does not mean Pavlik beats Hopkins.The circle jerking appraisal certificate has been exposed... and proven invalid.

[Alo2006]

Elite class - Calzaghe, Kessler
B+ class - Pavlik
B class - Taylor
B- class - Hopkins, Mundine

U need to be smacked if u really believe B-Hop is a B- fighter:-(

[Tko4]

Elite class - Calzaghe, Kessler
B+ class - Pavlik
B class - Taylor
B- class - Hopkins, Mundine
Either you're an idiot or you're just trying to stir crap up. Tonight's fight doesn't somehow prove non-American fighters rule, or whatever your amazing boxing math just tried to prove. The only thing it proves is that we witnessed a hell of a fight. It doesn't diminish the accomplishments of Bernard Hopkins in any way, shape or form. Now be gone.

[China_hand_Joe]

Who's your top 10 P4P right now?You have to put fighters like Guzman in over the likes of Hopkins and Taylor, after what he did to Barrios.

[Kamil]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.

Hey if your boy JC losing to Kessler i gonna start a nice thread about ur boy too, overrated, overhyped, FRAUD...

Taylor did well, give the man some respect and if pavlik beat tay dont mean he can beat hopkins:deal

[digiram]

What if Pavlik didn't get up in the 2nd round??? What would you thought of Taylor, then???

Stop being a dick and hating just b/c the biggest names through out boxing history are from America jackass.

Anyhow, Pavlik is American as well and Calzahge has his day coming. Mark it bitch....Nov. 3rd!!!!

[China_hand_Joe]

U need to be smacked if u really believe B-Hop is a B- fighter:-(
He is an old man. He was once elite, but be realistic for your own sake. Now he is Mundine level.

[nervousxtian]

Mundine and Hopkins on the same level.

You are funny.

[Toopretty]

man fuck you euro trash bumbs that cant even put half the fight as these two guys put on..Fuck Calfaggy and the danish overrated bitch..both get destroyed by Pavlik. Both.

[Shev]

As long as Pavlik stays at 160lbs he will dominate, if he moves up to 168lbs he will meet the power punchers worst nightmare.

[China_hand_Joe]

What if Pavlik didn't get up in the 2nd round??? What would you thought of Taylor, then???

Stop being a dick and hating just b/c the biggest names through out boxing history are from America jackass.

Anyhow, Pavlik is American as well and Calzahge has his day coming. Mark it bitch....Nov. 3rd!!!!

Don't you see?

It was like Vivian Harris - Carlos Maussa all over again.

The second round just showed us how flawed Pavlik also is.

[KhanB]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.

Why cant Calfage and Hopkins fans be in peace? Actually Calzag is cool with me but fans like you almost make me wish Kessler knocks him out just to shut you up. Hopkins for basically 94 - 03 knocks Taylor out just like Pavlik did. Youre just jealous Hopkins will go down in P4P history ahead of your tea sippin slapper.

[nervousxtian]

pavlik would absolutely murder hopkins, so would calzaghe and kessler and any other fighter who pressures even the slightest bit.

Yeah, that makes sense, since nobody has EVER KO or TKO'd Hopkins.

So you're basing that on? Oh that's right. Nothing.

[Dekkers]

U need to be smacked if u really believe B-Hop is a B- fighter:-(

I think he's talking about the current version of Hopkins, who I think would be beaten by Kessler, Calzaghe, Dawson, and have very difficult fights with some other top super middles and light heavies.

[Alo2006]

He is an old man. He was once elite, but be realistic for your own sake. Now he is Mundine level.

He's still beaten top opponents, u need to be real :yep

[DanePugilist]

man fuck you euro trash bumbs that cant even put half the fight as these two guys put on..Fuck Calfaggy and the danish overrated bitch..both get destroyed by Pavlik. Both.Are you a racist - I believe you usually call others for racists?

[sandwichsurgeon]

The "names" are now officially on par with Pavlik, in fact below that to be honest, below that and ranked highly, they are shit.

[China_hand_Joe]

Why cant Calfage and Hopkins fans be in peace? Actually Calzag is cool with me but fans like you almost make me wish Kessler knocks him out just to shut you up. Hopkins for basically 94 - 03 knocks Taylor out just like Pavlik did. Youre just jealous Hopkins will go down in P4P history ahead of your tea sippin slapper.

Hopkins is one of the 30 best fighters ever P4P. At 43 he is nothing. I am a huge fan of Hopkins, not the deluded fans who think he is still amongst the elite at 40+. He is visably slower, less stamina...etc

[Toopretty]

Are you a racist - I believe you usually call others for racists?

Bitch this is an anti american fighter thread and I called your strictly fighting bum over the pond ass euro trash fighters...are bums. That is not racist. That is fact...Is Kessler not a overrated Danish fighter......oh he is...yeah..then Im fucking right ..eat a dick bitch.

[DanePugilist]

He's still beaten top opponents, u need to be real :yepWho? Sloppy Milk Dud, and small featherfisted Winky? He can't live on past glories forever...

[KhanB]

The Hopkins of 1994 - 2003 knocks Taylor out and even Hops now at 170 gives everybody problems. Its not Hopkins fault that he couldnt stay at 160 and wait for Pavlik to come around.

[Carlos Primera]

definitely. there has to be a re arrangement of the p4p rankings. the circle jerking appraisal circuit has been descredited.

[China_hand_Joe]

He's still beaten top opponents, u need to be real :yep

Are you insane?

When was the last time he beat a top opponent, of a reasonable age at a reasonable weight?

Glen Johnson perhaps?

[lillarry]

pavlik would absolutely murder hopkins, so would calzaghe and kessler and any other fighter who pressures even the slightest bit.


Shut up idiot. Go play in traffic. See this is the problem with some of you so called boxing fans. You go into hysteria over a victory and start talking out your ass. Both fighters fought a great fight showed grit and determination but Kelly was the better man. To now say that he will murder a atg shows that you dont know shit about boxing and matchups styles. Go watch the UFC or WWE and leave boxing to grown folks little boy

[luckiestman]

i only read this forum right around fight time, so my question to the guys here: is the guy who wrote the first post serious or kidding. because i think it must be meant as a joke, but some are responding like he is serious

[RightCross]

I don't normally post on hate threads from Euros that have penis envy with American fighters.

Taylor fought the best Middleweight and at the time p4p top 5 guy Bhop. Then he fought another p4p figther in winky. The he fought one c+ fighter in ouma and one b+ fighter in spinks. The he fought a guy that is obviously one of the hardest hitting fighters currently in the game, Pavlik.


These fights alone are better than anything that either Kessler or Calzaghe have ever done, period.


The fact that Hopkins still beat Tarver shows that he still has some skill left and ability. I think he is past his retirement age, but even a past it hop is better than most fighters.

[Lacyace]

You have to put fighters like Guzman in over the likes of Hopkins and Taylor, after what he did to Barrios.
You aren't serious. :lol:

is the guy who wrote the first post serious or kidding. because i think it must be meant as a joke

He's trolling hard.

[Motor City Sam]

I don't normally post on hate threads from Euros that have penis envy with American fighters.

Taylor fought the best Middleweight and at the time p4p top 5 guy Bhop. Then he fought another p4p figther in winky. The he fought one c+ fighter in ouma and one b+ fighter in spinks. The he fought a guy that is obviously one of the hardest hitting fighters currently in the game, Pavlik.


These fights alone are better than anything that either Kessler or Calzaghe have ever done, period.


The fact that Hopkins still beat Tarver shows that he still has some skill left and ability. I think he is past his retirement age, but even a past it hop is better than most fighters.

Well said, Right Cross. :good

[El Presidente]

second round was just amazing and then BOOOM

[China_hand_Joe]

What a surprise.

Taylor loses, but instead of accepting he is a bit rubbish, they (Americanised persons) make excuses.

Instead of admitting Taylor (and hence Hopkins and Wright) is not that good you are all going elevate Pavlik to god-like status, so you can keep your P4P list full of yanks.

[Marnoff]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.

No. Taylor beat an over-40-year-old version of Hopkins by two disputed decisions. Why does that reflect poorly on Hopkins?

[digiram]

Don't you see?

It was like Vivian Harris - Carlos Maussa all over again.

The second round just showed us how flawed Pavlik also is.

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

What you're saying is that if you're fighting a good opponent and get caught, you're flawed???

Calzahge had never been in a tough fight before eh???

[Toopretty]

I don't normally post on hate threads from Euros that have penis envy with American fighters.

Taylor fought the best Middleweight and at the time p4p top 5 guy Bhop. Then he fought another p4p figther in winky. The he fought one c+ fighter in ouma and one b+ fighter in spinks. The he fought a guy that is obviously one of the hardest hitting fighters currently in the game, Pavlik.


These fights alone are better than anything that either Kessler or Calzaghe have ever done, period.


The fact that Hopkins still beat Tarver shows that he still has some skill left and ability. I think he is past his retirement age, but even a past it hop is better than most fighters.

Good post...Like I said they overhype the Euro fighters which are trash in resume and accomplishments...hence euro trash fighters.

[China_hand_Joe]

Europe are currently hyping two fighters. Calzaghe and Kessler around 160-175. Only two, because we have two. We don't overhype Carl Froch for example, because he isn't as good.

America try and claim they have a dozen elite fighters. Old men like Hopkins and Wright, it is embarrassing for them.

[DanePugilist]

Bitch this is an anti american fighter thread and I called your strictly fighting bum over the pond ass euro trash fighters...are bums. That is not racist. That is fact...Is Kessler not a overrated Danish fighter......oh he is...yeah..then Im fucking right ..eat a dick bitch.No, its not fact - you can't call a fight even if you know the results... Go back to the corn field, dumbass.

[Amsterdam]

man fuck you euro trash bumbs that cant even put half the fight as these two guys put on..Fuck Calfaggy and the danish overrated bitch..both get destroyed by Pavlik. Both.

Both would have finished him in the 2nd. You assume that Taylor hits as hard as both and with both being on another level in terms of poise and skill, what do you think would happen?

If not for the broken nose and KD, Pavlik was on his way to finishing off Taylor early like I said he would.

This bout puts a lot of things into perspective.

[RightCross]

Europe are currently hyping two fighters. Calzaghe and Kessler around 160-175. Only two, because we have two. We don't overhype Carl Froch for example, because he isn't as good.

America try and claim they have a dozen elite fighters. Old men like Hopkins and Wright, it is embarrassing for them.

I agree JC is a great fighter and IMO he would currently beat pavlik on points, but it is possible that pavlik could land soemthing big.

I also think kessler is a very good fighter, but I feel JC beats him on decision.

But there are many more people hyping Hatton than either of these guys IMO. We will see how he does vs PBF, so I disagree with you on the euro hype scene.

I hope Hatton makes a good showing against floyd. However, I think floyd is just too good.

[RightCross]

Both would have finished him in the 2nd. You assume that Taylor hits as hard as both and with both being on another level in terms of poise and skill, what do you think would happen?

If not for the broken nose and KD, Pavlik was on his way to finishing off Taylor early like I said he would.

This bout puts a lot of things into perspective.

Sorry but NO way in hell would Calzage had Pavlik hurt that early, he does not punch like JT. He is feather fisted

[Marnoff]

Hopkins is like a slower Taylor, with a more solid chin. Of course he loses to Pavlik.

Hmm... Hopkins and Taylor don't have similar styles at all.

[Marciano Frazier]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.
Regardless of how he looked last time out when coming off a lay-off of over a year preceded by a crushing defeat, Tarver was the legitimate reigning light heavyweight champion of the world coming off wins over Jones and Johnson when Hopkins beat him, and Hopkins- at 42 years old and coming straight up from middleweight, no less- not only beat him, but smeared him. This is a HUGE accomplishment.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.
It seems your method of assessing fighters(at least American fighters, anyway) is to choose whichever outing of theirs reflects on them the worst and ignore anything and everything else about them and their careers.
Fact is, Taylor was an Olympic medalist and was undefeated in 24 pro fights when he fought Hopkins. Hopkins was the reigning middleweight champion, hadn't been beaten in over a decade, and had beaten multiple future Hall-of-Famers. He was a near universally top five pound-for-pound ranked fighter, and in fact was #1 on most people's lists. Taylor twice went more or less even with him and was awarded the decision.
He then proceeded to take on Wright, who hadn't been beaten in nearly seven years, had beaten multiple future Hall-of-Famers and was a near universally top five pound-for-pound ranked fighter, top three on most people's lists at the time. Taylor also went more or less even with him, and the fight was ruled a draw.
After this, Taylor took on a man who, although he was not on the level of the aforementioned previous two opponents, was still arguably the best junior middleweight in the world in Ouma, and although the fight was awkward and lackluster, Taylor got the job done and soundly outpointed Ouma. Next up was Spinks, who was one of the best welterweights/junior middleweights of the last five years, and who Taylor also outpointed in lackluster-but-workmanlike fashion.

Fact is, although Taylor never looked dominant, he was taking on about the highest caliber of opposition you could possibly ask for and was going even or better against it in those first three fights, and then was going a little better than even against a notch or two lower level of opposition in the last two. Anyone who does what Taylor did in those five straight fights is absolutely a legitimate top-tier world-class fighter.

Moreover, even this loss is not any shame at all on Taylor. Pavlik, in case you haven't noticed, was 31-0 with 28 knockouts, coming off a dominant knockout win over one of the most feared and dangerous contenders around, and Taylor had him down and hurt and was ahead on the scorecards before Pavlik caught him with some monstrous punches and stopped him. Fact is, Pavlik is one of the best in the business right now and is possibly the hardest hitting middleweight alive. He would have a puncher's chance against most anyone, and it came into play against Taylor. Taylor was not blown out or disgraced, and as I say, actually had Pavlik down and was leading before the knockout. It certainly wouldn't be any great surprise if Taylor won in a rematch between the two. Your entire "everyone-is-bad-because-one-guy-lost-one-fight" deck of cards is not only flimsy on every story, but fails to hold up on its very foundation as well.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.
Let's see... Wright has a career record of 51-4-1, has soundly defeated two of the pound-for-pound greatest fighters of the last decade who will be absolute locks for the Hall of Fame(Mosley and Trinidad), and has lost only one fight in nigh eight years. But wait! He had a draw against the undefeated middleweight champion of the world who was coming off back-to-back wins over one of the greatest fighters alive and would later go on to- egad!- lose a fight!!!:scaredas: Clearly a bum.

Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?
Let's see, here: 12 years of domination over the middleweight division with wins over two legendary future Hall-of-Famers... two extremely narrow and debatable losses to an undefeated Olympic Medalist who does the same thing against another pound-for-pound elite immediately afterwards... extremely dominant win over the world light heavyweight champion... and still another win over a pound-for-pound elite and future Hall-of-Famer, pulled off at 42 years old! Yes, clearly Hopkins is nothing but an overrated hype-job whose paltry accomplishments pale in comparison with those of legends like Mikkel Kessler. *(that last sentence was dripping with intense sarcasm, by the way)

Hopkins is an absolute legend and possibly the greatest fighter of the last 15 years.

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.
This is even more comical, since you're now arguing that American boxing is bad because one American fighter beat another American fighter for the world championship!:lol:

[sues2nd]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.

Seriously.....STFU. Fighter A beating Fighter B bullshit. Your better than that.

[brooklyn1550]

Seriously.....STFU. Fighter A beating Fighter B bullshit. Your better than that.

:good Hopkins is an ATG and a boxing legend...end of this fucking discussion.

[KhanB]

Hopkins is somehow a fraud when Pavlik came close to getting TKO'd by a milk dud who hadnt dropped anybody in about 3 years?? I like Pavlik and even admit he's a Fighter of the Year so far but he's not the new Jake Lamotta just yet.

[dumdane]

What a surprise.

Taylor loses, but instead of accepting he is a bit rubbish, they (Americanised persons) make excuses.

Instead of admitting Taylor (and hence Hopkins and Wright) is not that good you are all going elevate Pavlik to god-like status, so you can keep your P4P list full of yanks.

Bit harsh - and not gonna win you many american friends.
But nevertheless what happens.

From now on most americans will simply assume that Hopkins, Winky, Taylor AND Pavlik would easily beat the likes of Calzaghe and Kessler.

As long as none of these "names" fuck up by actually making a fight with the likes of Calzaghe, the americans can all remain happy in this fantasy world where they rule the totally rule the P4P-lists.

The same ppl will continue to state (and possibly believe) that SMW on a whole is utter crap - simply bc there are no americans at the top of it. (Except Lacy - who's status is a bit undecided).

The "names" will then avoid it like the plague, jump over it like hopkins or only stop there to fight an american who's not even top-10 and then quickly move on, claiming they've done all there is to do there.

...oh wait - did i also anger the yanks now? Was i a little harsh too? Even blasphemous?

Damn - they comming for me now....they look angry...:hi:

[PATSYS]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.

It does put Hopkins' accomplishments into a new perspective.

I always maintain that Hopkins' stint at MW was never top 5 MW ATG material. However his losses to Taylor were all close and disputed. By the way I never bought the excuse that Hopkins was past his best when he fought Taylor.

Tonight's result definitely does not help the cause of those who claimed Hops is within top 3 greatest MW atg.

[DanePugilist]

Good post, Dumdane - I always enjoy your posts, but you should post more:cool:

[brooklyn1550]

Hopkins is OVERRATED and was exposed tonite as a big fraud parading around with a WORTHLESS Ring belt.

The only way Hopkins was exposed tonight was by learning he didn't have the tenacity or power of Pavlik when he fought Taylor - as if that comes as a surprise:roll:

[DanePugilist]

thats what I'm saying, he wanted this to be a race war, he tried to call pavlik cheerers racist for celebrating his victory becauses hes white, when it was about the hbo propaganda machine being bullshit, now he throws racial slurs because he can't deal with it:good - someone should give Toopretty a big ass mirror.

[nezy37]

no, will Europeans acknowledge that Calzaghe hasn't fought enough competition yet

[sues2nd]

Hey, CHJ, is there any good US fighters. All I ever hear from you lately is "US BIAS", "OVERRATED US BUM", "BS US HYPE"....

Your becoming exactly what you hate and talk shit about. All the talk of a US bias and your fast becoming one of the other end of the spectrum....the EPIDOMY of ANTI-US BIAS.

Its getting old and tiresome. And this is coming from one of your biggest supporters on here.

Give it a fuckin rest dude.

[Amsterdam]

CHJ has a cemented opinion that Dawson is currently one of the best fighters in the world, a US fighter no less. He's very hard to impress.

[sues2nd]

CHJ has a cemented opinion that Dawson is currently one of the best fighters in the world, a US fighter no less. He's very hard to impress.

Wow...amazing.

It took him beating Adamek (a non US fighter) to prove it tho.

Am, you know CHJ is normally my boy. He is hilarious, and knows his shit (most of the time). But he is getting [Only registered and activated users can see links] too out of hand with this US/ANTI US shit.

[Amsterdam]

Wow...amazing.

It took him beating Adamek (a non US fighter) to prove it tho.

Am, you know CHJ is normally my boy. He is hilarious, and knows his shit (most of the time). But he is getting [Only registered and activated users can see links] too out of hand with this US/ANTI US shit.

It's just because of the current situation mate. My prediction came true and was on target, except for the 2nd round, that was a shocker and nobody gave me an ounce of credit for putting a ton of things on the line and VOCALLY taking one side cemented and never once letting up on it, instead, several have even tried to 'pick' at my pre-fight analysis as a whole and act like Pavlik just got lucky and therefore I just got lucky. The point of this is simple, this is the kind of credit non-americans get for brilliant performances at times and then an American fighter wins a close as hell decision against a similiar opponent and is heralded.

Pavlik is being heavily overrated now, but he does put the 'current' state of Wright and Hopkins into perspective, because he himself is just 'good', not what I'd call 'elite' by any means. The MW division is shallow, nothing like the SMW division and most people are NOW agreeing.

But this is shit that CHJ and myself have spun for a long time, instead of merely accepting that they were all wrong, they still come up with an exusive/apologising mentality.

I am not even going to rub anything in hard, this was an easy fight to predict, the only surprise was that Pavlik's chin is now on the suspect list, as Taylor is not much of a puncher and this was universally considered pre-fight. But we have stated that Pavlik and Taylor are two steps below the precision of Calzaghe and Kessler and have stood by it, the current state of Hopkins, which doesn't reflect on his prime ability, is also at this level, it's very evident.

And Dawson didn't just 'beat' Adamek, he DOMINATED Adamek, this is where he showed immense class and poise, something Taylor has never shown and why Dawson deserved to be acclaimed more after the Adamek performance. Adamek is a better fucking fighter overall in comparison to Kelly Pavlik, that's for damn sure.

[brooklyn1550]

I think Pavlik is elite...but it all depends on each individual's criteria of elite. Of course he is not as good as Calzaghe or Kessler, but he is the recognized middleweight champion who has knocked out Miranda and Taylor in back to back fights. I look at him as the best at 160. But he should stay away from 168 for sure unless it is a rematch with Taylor.

[Amsterdam]

I think Pavlik is elite...but it all depends on each individual's criteria of elite. Of course he is not as good as Calzaghe or Kessler, but he is the recognized middleweight champion who has knocked out Miranda and Taylor in back to back fights. I look at him as the best at 160. But he should stay away from 168 for sure unless it is a rematch with Taylor.

He's elite at 160, of course, just not elite in the grand scheme, nowhere near it.

I hope he's rated adequatley also. He's huge at MW, essentially a SMW and if you think he'd do little at SMW, then the SMW guys who would rip him to pieces ought to get a little press for what they are able to do also.

[brooklyn1550]

He's elite at 160, of course, just not elite in the grand scheme, nowhere near it.

Well said

[sues2nd]

It's just because of the current situation mate. My prediction came true and was on target, except for the 2nd round, that was a shocker and nobody gave me an ounce of credit for putting a ton of things on the line and VOCALLY taking one side cemented and never once letting up on it, instead, several have even tried to 'pick' at my pre-fight analysis as a whole and act like Pavlik just got lucky and therefore I just got lucky. The point of this is simple, this is the kind of credit non-americans get for brilliant performances at times and then an American fighter wins a close as hell decision against a similiar opponent and is heralded.

Pavlik is being heavily overrated now, but he does put the 'current' state of Wright and Hopkins into perspective, because he himself is just 'good', not what I'd call 'elite' by any means. The MW division is shallow, nothing like the SMW division and most people are NOW agreeing.

But this is shit that CHJ and myself have spun for a long time, instead of merely accepting that they were all wrong, they still come up with an exusive/apologising mentality.

I am not even going to rub anything in hard, this was an easy fight to predict, the only surprise was that Pavlik's chin is now on the suspect list, as Taylor is not much of a puncher and this was universally considered pre-fight. But we have stated that Pavlik and Taylor are two steps below the precision of Calzaghe and Kessler and have stood by it, the current state of Hopkins, which doesn't reflect on his prime ability, is also at this level, it's very evident.

And Dawson didn't just 'beat' Adamek, he DOMINATED Adamek, this is where he showed immense class and poise, something Taylor has never shown and why Dawson deserved to be acclaimed more after the Adamek performance. Adamek is a better fucking fighter overall in comparison to Kelly Pavlik, that's for damn sure.

You did call it. You get all the credit for that.

I myself dont feel Pavlik got lucky at all. He showed he has great stamina (actually got stronger as the fight progressed, where as Taylor faded), a better than average jab (something I didnt think he had), good power in both hands (we all knew that) and ability to bounce back after being floored (not an easy thing to do).

I do feel he was losing, as I explained in the other post.

As for the Adamek/Pavlik comparison. I do favor Adamek, but he does tend to take too many rights...something Dawson and Briggs were able to pick away at him with. And even as not being a big Pavlik guy, I have to admit, he has a HELL of a right hand.

Would I favor him to beat Adamek? No. Would it be totally out of the question? No.

BUT!!!!

Hopkins is a PROVEN legend. He has a fantastic resume. Great skills (even at this advanced age). You know I could keep going.

So now that someone that arguably beat him (you know where I stand on this issue), lost.....Americans (not boxing fans....just the US), need to realize he is nothing special.

GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE.....you know that is some ANTI US BULLSHIT. Like I said...Im a big CHJ fan normally....but as of late....he is getting out of hand with this hating most (Dawson excluded) US.

[youthmann]

Europe are currently hyping two fighters. Calzaghe and Kessler around 160-175. Only two, because we have two. We don't overhype Carl Froch for example, because he isn't as good.

America try and claim they have a dozen elite fighters. Old men like Hopkins and Wright, it is embarrassing for them.

Or Bute which is a pretty cool fighter too...

Good point China....:thumbsup

[youthmann]

Serious writting mate.. Good post.

[unclepaulie]

It is really pointless to argue with stubborn, blatently biased fans, but here it goes. To point out one loss in a fighters career and say that proves him inferior to another fighter (which just so COINCIDENTALLY happens to be you're favorite fighter) is silly and childish. Most every alltime great has lost. When you fight top competition it is bound to happen eventually. Roberto Duran lost. Muhammad Ali lost. Julio Caesar Chavez lost. They all lost, but at least they can say they fought the best, and if that's not what truly defines a great fighter I don't know what does. At the end of the day I will give my respect to those who fight the best, regardless of thier nationality. I will also not point out that a win or loss of of one fighter completely undermines the accomplishments of any other fighter. It is for this reason that I do not give Joe Calzaghe credit. Not one time did he fight a p4p fighter. NOT ONCE!! Take a look at the list of p4p's that Bernard Hopkins, or for that matter any other "overly hyped Ameerican fighters" have fought and you tell me who has beat the better fighters. But you can always still claim that the rankings of an independent newssource are biased against (coincidentally) you're favorite fighter. Grow up and give credit where credit is due.

[Dekkers]

I don't think anybody is diminishing Hopkins' all time standing, but people are (imo rightfully) saying the Hopkins of today is beatable, there's this peception that the Hopkins of today can't be beaten by fighters like Dawson, Calzaghe and Kessler... the reality is he'd be in underdog in any of those matchups, he's far past his prime.

[TomaTos]

Elite class - Calzaghe, Kessler
B+ class - Pavlik
B class - Taylor
B- class - Hopkins, Mundine

How can you put Hopkins and Taylor in two different class ?

Btw, Hopkins in 2001 vs Taylor 2007 = Hopkins by KO :D !

So De la hoya is C class, Cotto D class and Judah class E, come on !

[El Bombasto]

Because Pavlik beat Taylor does not mean Pavlik beats Hopkins.

I agree, Pavlik is too inexperienced to deal with a slick/dirty fighter like Hopkins.

[mattress]

Great fight last night. Taylor really should have finished it in the second round tho'. Anyway, the king is dead, long live the king.........but he really needs to stay away from SMW for a while. Calzaghe would dismantle him.

[pioterbezkitu]

It's just because of the current situation mate. My prediction came true and was on target, except for the 2nd round, that was a shocker and nobody gave me an ounce of credit for putting a ton of things on the line and VOCALLY taking one side cemented and never once letting up on it, instead, several have even tried to 'pick' at my pre-fight analysis as a whole and act like Pavlik just got lucky and therefore I just got lucky. The point of this is simple, this is the kind of credit non-americans get for brilliant performances at times and then an American fighter wins a close as hell decision against a similiar opponent and is heralded.

Pavlik is being heavily overrated now, but he does put the 'current' state of Wright and Hopkins into perspective, because he himself is just 'good', not what I'd call 'elite' by any means. The MW division is shallow, nothing like the SMW division and most people are NOW agreeing.

But this is shit that CHJ and myself have spun for a long time, instead of merely accepting that they were all wrong, they still come up with an exusive/apologising mentality.

I am not even going to rub anything in hard, this was an easy fight to predict, the only surprise was that Pavlik's chin is now on the suspect list, as Taylor is not much of a puncher and this was universally considered pre-fight. But we have stated that Pavlik and Taylor are two steps below the precision of Calzaghe and Kessler and have stood by it, the current state of Hopkins, which doesn't reflect on his prime ability, is also at this level, it's very evident.

And Dawson didn't just 'beat' Adamek, he DOMINATED Adamek, this is where he showed immense class and poise, something Taylor has never shown and why Dawson deserved to be acclaimed more after the Adamek performance. Adamek is a better fucking fighter overall in comparison to Kelly Pavlik, that's for damn sure.

WTF?! :-(

His chin would be suspect if he went down after a single punch or a one two, but maaaan, he went down after taking 15 (yeah I've counted them!) power punches! And half of them were flush on the chin! Get real!

[somerset]

I just think the last generation of US-based middleweight champions were way better than their current counterparts. As a result the older generation have been able to keep winning inspite of their deterioration.

Jones Jr, Hopkins, Wright and Toney at their prime were way better than Pavlik, Dawson, Taylor... at the moment

As a result the P4P is a bit skewed.

[pioterbezkitu]

What do you think real punchers would do to Pavlik if they would land 15 power punches?

We're talking about his chin or his defence? Couse he's defence is leaky - that's obvious. But Amsterdam got Pavlik on his "Suspect chin" list :huh

About that 15 punches - there is probably none other fighter in the division who is throwing combos so fluently, so don't be nervous. And count out Abraham :smooch

[pioterbezkitu]

Well, i agree with Amsterdam actually. Pavlik´s chin is a bit questonable. I took Pavlik to beat Abraham before the Taylor fight but right now i think he would lose.

Well, you should use your own brain from time to time :good

[Hrak]

The reason Hopkins lost to Taylor was because he went into a shell as soon as he got hit by a few hard punches, Pavlik however kept comming even though he got floored, now thats what you call hunger and determination.

[pioterbezkitu]

So, only because i came to the same conclusion as Amsterdam i don´t use my own brain? My little friend you should think before you post. And you still haven´t answered my question yet.


Not because the same conclusion, but because you can't see the obvios. I've just watche th 2nd round and punches landed by Taylor were murdorous. FUCK! You have to have a chin to get up from blows like that!

What question? :huh

[sandwichsurgeon]

definitely. there has to be a re arrangement of the p4p rankings. the circle jerking appraisal circuit has been descredited.

Exactly, the guys thinking differently sound like they are making excuses at this point.

[joe33]

Elite class - Calzaghe, Kessler
B+ class - Pavlik
B class - Taylor
B- class - Hopkins, Mundine


Yah pity JC aint till now had the bottle to fight any of them,that proves to me hes not really 100% he could have beat them,hes only fighting kessler now,becasue he aint got any other options,he cant keep fighting complete jokes like manfredo jnr for ever,his fans aint that fucking dumb are thet?,oh yeah your one,so sadly they must be:lol:

[Smazz20]

Yah pity JC aint till now had the bottle to fight any of them,that proves to me hes not really 100% he could have beat them,hes only fighting kessler now,becasue he aint got any other options,he cant keep fighting complete jokes like manfredo jnr for ever,his fans aint that fucking dumb are thet?,oh yeah your one,so sadly they must be:lol:

You probably said the exact same thing about him when he signed to fight Lacy, "duh, well, err, I mean he's only ever fought bums and he's only fighting Lacy coz he's got no other options, he can't fight bums all his career"

[Rollo]

Next to racism, this european(british)/american dispute is the one that sucks the most!

[Smazz20]

Next to racism, this european(british)/american dispute is the one that sucks the most!

Isn't it!! Pathetic really. But then again, when your told that all European fighters haven't done anything until they've fought in America, it gets a little annoying. Why should it matter where they've fought? Do these people not have T.V's? The internet?

Yet they will rate fighters that fought in the early 1900's, because of herasay.

[bigeddie27]

Elite class - Calzaghe, Kessler
B+ class - Pavlik
B class - Taylor
B- class - Hopkins, Mundine
are you talking about hopkins now, or a prime hopkins? Because a prime hopkins is as elite as they come. watch his fight against glenn johnson and tell me that hopkins doenst give everyone problems.

[pioterbezkitu]

Most punches weren´t landing flush and Taylor isn´t exactly known for his power.

I asked you what would happen to Pavlik if a real puncher like Abraham would hit him like light-punching Taylor did.

He's power always was solid, if you bought that shit "Taylor is feather fisted" than you have to reeducate yoursef. :-(

Abraham would never theow such combos, Abraham is far more stiff than Taylor. And he really didn't look that good in his last fight. What if Pavlik would land his shots on Abraham like that Gevor dude?

[bigeddie27]

He's power always was solid, if you bought that shit "Taylor is feather fisted" than you have to reeducate yoursef. :-(

Abraham would never theow such combos, Abraham is far more stiff than Taylor. And he really didn't look that good in his last fight. What if Pavlik would land his shots on Abraham like that Gevor dude?

I really doubt abraham wants anything to do with pavlik. expect abraham to avoid him like the plauge.

[Marnoff]

What an idiotic thread. Claiming that this proves Hopkins was always overrated is a joke.

[Boro chris]

Are you a racist - I believe you usually call others for racists?

Just put this cunt on ignore like I did. Life's too short to listen the crap he spews out.
To be fair I'd be pretty annoyed if I were american and listening to CHJ bash my fighters all the time.:lol:

[sandwichsurgeon]

Last night Hopkins was also exposed as a fraud and a handpicker.

In which case Tito looks really bad.

[EspadaYdaga]

This fighter A did this to fighter B, and fighter B lost to Fighter C type logic is all a bit strange.

What is obvious is that some of these MW's just aren't that good. Hopkins is well past his best as you'd expect (what is he - about 58?). He still put in creditable performances against a decent if not outstanding boxer in Taylor.

I'm a massive Wright fan, but he looked like he'd lost his sharpness against Taylor. He looks flat footed. He's on the slippery slope.

Pavlik is a good puncher, he's far from a great boxer. He does reflect pretty poorly on the division.

What is pretty clear is that these guys wouldn't have a cat in hells chance against Kessler or Calzaghe.

[elTerrible]

As long as Pavlik stays at 160lbs he will dominate, if he moves up to 168lbs he will meet the power punchers worst nightmare.

Nah, Winky can still make 160

[jecxbox]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.


wtf is so hard to understand that a devastating puncher is a devastating puncher? A skilled fighter when fighting someone with the power of Pavlik can go to sleep at any time of the fight, it doesn't matter who you are, Obviously a defensive fighter is always going to give KO machines like Pavlik hell. Who gives a shit? It is almost like you are discrediting Pavlik's win. Pavlik has Julian Jackson type power, its absurd and off the charts.

[jecxbox]

Nah, Winky can still make 160

Winky is a sitting duck and will be turned into a human punching bag against Pavlik. Pavlik will run all over him and eventually knock him the f out. Winky's earmuffs won't do shit against the kind of output and power that Pavlik possesses. Obviously Pavlik has defensive problems and hes not incredibly fast but he is BIG..and punches like a monster.

[cross_trainer]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.
Wow, you mean the two best middleweights in the world fought each other and ONE LOST?! :yikes

That proves Calzaghe is better! What bums.

[EspadaYdaga]

Wow, you mean the two best middleweights in the world fought each other and ONE LOST?! :yikes

That proves Calzaghe is better! What bums.
The point is the two best middleweights aren't much good. They better stay at 160.

[cross_trainer]

The point is the two best middleweights aren't much good.
Based on what?

[EspadaYdaga]

Based on my eyes. These guys havn't got the ability to step up for different reasons. Stick to defences at 160.

[cross_trainer]

Based on my eyes. These guys havn't got the ability to step up for different reasons. Stick to defences at 160.

That's very different from CHJ's "he was beaten, so he's not good" reasoning.

[EspadaYdaga]

CHJ looks like a prat, I wouldn't pay much attention.

Pavlik is just too crude, too open, not enough boxing skills to live with the best at SMW. He would be taken apart.

Taylor is a decent boxer, but doesn't have the X factor. He doesn't have better skills, enough power or enough heart to compete at 168.

Wright has lost that sharpness that allowed him to pick guys off. He hasn't got the work rate to win on points, or the power to knock these guys back.

I actually think Hopkins has the best chance against JC or Kessler. He has that nous and boxing sense to always remain competetive when the odds are stacked against him. Still won't win mind..

[Toopretty]

CHJ looks like a prat, I wouldn't pay much attention.

Pavlik is just too crude, too open, not enough boxing skills to live with the best at SMW. He would be taken apart.

Taylor is a decent boxer, but doesn't have the X factor. He doesn't have better skills, enough power or enough heart to compete at 168.

Wright has lost that sharpness that allowed him to pick guys off. He hasn't got the work rate to win on points, or the power to knock these guys back.

I actually think Hopkins has the best chance against JC or Kessler. He has that nous and boxing sense to always remain competetive when the odds are stacked against him. Still won't win mind..

man stfu...kessler or fucking calzaghe...beat nobody...they both would get there ass exposed mixing it up with real fighters...Kesslers 1,2 scooby doo same ass combination and Calslappy with no defensey....would get his head tooken off by Pavlik who would not be phased one bit by his powerless slaps.

[maracho]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.

Well they certainly were brought down a notch but no much more than Calzaghe was after Bute dominated Bika or when Mock KO'd Brewer. On the other hand I am sure that Pavlik would KO Bute and Mock on the same night.

Thus, according to your own phylosophy the cardiff hype should also be brought down a notch.:think

[bigeddie27]

man stfu...kessler or fucking calzaghe...beat nobody...they both would get there ass exposed mixing it up with real fighters...Kesslers 1,2 scooby doo same ass combination and Calslappy with no defensey....would get his head tooken off by Pavlik who would not be phased one bit by his powerless slaps.
well that is what happends when you have 2 euro-trash protected fighters in a weak division. You get these crazy fans who think they are god, but takes them like 10 years to fight one another. I wuold like to see calzaghe go through what pavlik , or miranda, or JT went through and stay unbeaten. Fucking protcted ass fighters. And I think Calzaghe would fight all of them (he is a competitve fuck) if that bitch ass ****** wasnt such a hinderance to the sport. I hate this unbeaten 'stigma' that goes around. I wish every fighter had a loss on their record.

[EspadaYdaga]

man stfu...kessler or fucking calzaghe...beat nobody...they both would get there ass exposed mixing it up with real fighters...Kesslers 1,2 scooby doo same ass combination and Calslappy with no defensey....would get his head tooken off by Pavlik who would not be phased one bit by his powerless slaps. Hehe, I bet you were saying the same about Lacy..

You don't need to have massive power if you are smashing a guy in the face time and time again. If you think Calzaghe or Kessler would have their "head taken off" by Kelly fucking Pavlik you are deluded beyond belief. Let's be honest, the main thing Pavlik has going for him is he's American rather than any boxing sense that says hes going to beat these guys.

[hooligan]

surely hopkins aint special NOW...hes a freakin grandpa for crying out loud

[Mrvooh]

Because Pavlik beat Taylor does not mean Pavlik beats Hopkins. That's a good pernt = Lewis always accurately says " Styles make fights "
Like " foreman beat Frazier, so he should beat Ali, cause Frazier
beat Ali " OOOOPPPSSS!!

[Gunnar]

Why are people talking as if Taylor is a fraud? He lost to the ATM best middleweight, and he put on a damn good show. There is no shame in that. Jermain performed much better than i thought he would, I was shocked when he put Pavlik down to the canvas.

Both fighters earned my respect, that was one helluva fight.

[Boinko]

Why are people talking as if Taylor is a fraud? He lost to the ATM best middleweight, and he put on a damn good show. There is no shame in that. Jermain performed much better than i thought he would, I was shocked when he put Pavlik down to the canvas.

Both fighters earned my respect, that was one helluva fight.

You make a good point, as very, very few people thought Taylor could hurt Pavlik like that.
After his fight with Miranda, Pavlik was being hailed as having a steel chin. I was certainly surprised when it happend.

Give Taylor his due. He showed some real toughness in there. He got beaten by the better fighter, but he shouldn't be ashamed.

[Jose FM]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.
I didnt know how much of an idiot you are until now.

[Dorfmeister]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.

You are making too many assumptions to get anything out of your calculations.

Tarver was performing less than well in his last fight yes, the man is 38 years old of age for Crissake!

Taylor is at the same level he has always been, right there at the top of the 160-pounders, otherwise he wouldn't have hurt and decked Kelly Pavlik, the new Champion.

Nothing on the Taylor vs Pavlik fight reflects on Winky whose last fight was at 170 pounds, neither affects his very good performance at 160 against the same Taylor.

You don't know if Calzaghe and Kessler would make Pavlik foolish, how the hell do you get to that?

Hopkins current level as P4P Top fighter is not affected at all based on the level of his opposition such as Tarver of 2006 or Winky of 2007. Nobody is ignoring the fact that he lost twice to Taylor but he doesn't go down with the so-called "American Foundation" and Taylor's collapse.

I would say that this makes no sense and is another fire starter to the rivalry between the best Euro Super-Middles and the best USA Middles and Light-Heavies, nothing more... Nobody can predict exactly how Kessler and Calzaghe would match with Taylor, Bernard, Pavlik if they don't get to a simple fight agreement.

[David UK]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.

Couldn't have put it better myself!!:happy :happy :happy

[David UK]

Elite class - Calzaghe, Kessler
B+ class - Pavlik
B class - Taylor
B- class - Hopkins, Mundine

I'd have Taylor in the B- category, otherwise that's just about correct:good

[sues2nd]

Next to racism, this european(british)/american dispute is the one that sucks the most!

:deal

[David UK]

Why cant Calfage and Hopkins fans be in peace? Actually Calzag is cool with me but fans like you almost make me wish Kessler knocks him out just to shut you up. Hopkins for basically 94 - 03 knocks Taylor out just like Pavlik did. Youre just jealous Hopkins will go down in P4P history ahead of your tea sippin slapper.

Probably all stems from Hopkins blatent ducking out of a verbally agreed fight with Calzaghe

[sues2nd]

Probably all stems from Hopkins blatent ducking out of a verbally agreed fight with Calzaghe

:patsch

My god this post gets dumber and dumber...

[David UK]

Yah pity JC aint till now had the bottle to fight any of them,that proves to me hes not really 100% he could have beat them,hes only fighting kessler now,becasue he aint got any other options,he cant keep fighting complete jokes like manfredo jnr for ever,his fans aint that fucking dumb are thet?,oh yeah your one,so sadly they must be:lol:

Erm..........:huh ...........he's fighting Kessler because Taylor turned him down just like Hopkins did when he asked for his money to be doubled following a verbal agreement. As Calzaghe can't really fight himself that only leaves Pavlik and Mundine from the original list!!:lol:

[nervousxtian]

Calling Taylor, Hopkins, and Winky all frauds because of Pavlik beating Taylor is about as stupid and ignorant as overrating Joe Calzaghe as an ATG for beating a young and overhyped Jeff Lacy.

[box03]

Taylor made alot of mistakes in his fight with Pavlik but he definitely is a good boxer, he has great hand speed with a good punch that floored Pavlik. I think its kind of funny people compare elite fighter like Wright and Hopkins to Calzaghe and Kessler, Calzaghes resume is a joke for being a champion first of all and Kessler I barely even heard of him. Calzaghe would of got schooled and probably knocked out if he fought Hopkins anywhere from 97-02, I love when people compare an ATG to someone who is a maybe hall of fame fighter imo.

[cardstars]

We have seen how bad Tarver is from his last fight.

Tonight we saw what level Taylor really is.

Which also reflects badly on Wright.

Kessler and Calzaghe would both make Pavlik look foolish.



Can America now accept Hopkins' current level? Or are you all going to ignore hindsight again?

The entire foundations of American boxing biggest names collapsed tonight with Taylor's loss.

You have serious hate issues towards america. Settle down freak nasty. It was an amazing fight; you don't need to dig into everything. I would love to see Kessler/Calzaghe vs Pavlik. I think it would be a much closer fight than you give Pavlik credit for.

[David UK]

You have serious hate issues towards america. Settle down freak nasty. It was an amazing fight; you don't need to dig into everything. I would love to see Kessler/Calzaghe vs Pavlik. I think it would be a much closer fight than you give Pavlik credit for.

The original post didn't call Hopkins, Wright etc frauds, just pointed out, quite correctly that the Pavlik/Taylor result doesn't reflect well on them.

As for your last point, whilst I'd be rooting for Calzaghe, I think a Pavlik v Calzaghe/Kessler would be a very tough fight and difficult to call

[Fighting Weight]

Lol Calzaghe....one day he might just pluck up the courage to fight Glen Johnson. When that day comes then comparisons between him and Hopkins can start.

[China_hand_Joe]

China_hand_Joe has no grudge against Americans. I want Mayweather to destroy Ricky Hatton (one of my favorite fighters) simply because Mayweather is the better boxer and fighter.

I have a load of Americans ranked amongst my all time P4P lists.

However I do begrudge the current levels of respect, Hopkins' current level of ability recieves. Prime Bernard, amazing. Current Bernard is a B level fighter. I also disapprove of the manner in which, instead of revaluating the 'hype circle' of Hopkins, Taylor, Wright a load of people simply bump Pavlik up even higher than they are.

Pavlike should be placed above them, yes. But when you still have Hopkins ranked top 5 P4P, you cannot do that. The ranking of Hopkins needs to be revaluated right now.

[mattress]

I want Mayweather to destroy Ricky Hatton (one of my favorite fighters) simply because Mayweather is the better boxer and fighter.


I think PBF is better than Hatton but that doesn't mean that I want the prick to win.

[DanePugilist]

China_hand_Joe has no grudge against Americans. I want Mayweather to destroy Ricky Hatton (one of my favorite fighters) simply because Mayweather is the better boxer and fighter.

I have a load of Americans ranked amongst my all time P4P lists.

However I do begrudge the current levels of respect, Hopkins' current level of ability recieves. Prime Bernard, amazing. Current Bernard is a B level fighter. I also disapprove of the manner in which, instead of revaluating the 'hype circle' of Hopkins, Taylor, Wright a load of people simply bump Pavlik up even higher than they are.

Pavlike should be placed above them, yes. But when you still have Hopkins ranked top 5 P4P, you cannot do that. The ranking of Hopkins needs to be revaluated right now.I endorse this post... except I want Floyd to dance on the floor.

[China_hand_Joe]

I think PBF is better than Hatton but that doesn't mean that I want the prick to win.

Yes I support whoever is the more talented fighter, almost without exception.

[C Money]

Racism, SCHMASEISM!!!!


Rematch Pavlik vs Taylor vs winner of Calzaghe vs Kessler= The best available:yep

[cross_trainer]

Yes I support whoever is the more talented fighter, almost without exception.

The more talented fighter is generally the one who wins. There are stylistic exceptions.

Perhaps this is at the root of your Calzaghe impersonation?

[mattress]

Yes I support whoever is the more talented fighter, almost without exception.
Wow, always back the favourite.....I call that playing safe.That must be boring as hell. Most of us have favourite boxers. Sometime it's down to skill, sometimes it's down to personality, sometime it down to the way they fight.

You are the kind of guy who supports the team thats currently top of the league?

[China_hand_Joe]

Wow, always back the favourite.....I call that playing safe.That must be boring as hell. Most of us have favourite boxers. Sometime it's down to skill, sometimes it's down to personality, sometime it down to the way they fight.

You are the kind of guy who supports the team thats currently top of the league?

I'll occasionally root for an old talented fighter who is the underdog, against a less talented fighter who will simply win because they are younger. The same can apply with people moving up in weight.

This myth that I dislike American fighter for being American is incorrect. There happen to be a lot of overhyped Americans, so I try to bring them down. People remember these instances, not less controversial ones where I praise deserving Americans like all time P4P number 2 Roy Jones. Selective memory.


I do not approve of supporting your local football team.

[mattress]

I'll occasionally root for an old talented fighter who is the underdog, against a less talented fighter who will simply win because they are younger. The same can apply with people moving up in weight.


hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[China_hand_Joe]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Oh course if it is someone fighting way, way past their prime I'll root against them, for being stupid enough to put themselves at risk.

35 year old Calzaghe vs the younger Kessler is an instance where I'll root for the old underdog. I promise you I don't just mould my rules to suit supporting Calzaghe.

[mattress]

Me neither....I hope Calzaghe knocks Kessler out cold!

[China_hand_Joe]

He doesn't want to do Kessler in too badly, or Kesslers name losses meaning. I don't believe he will anyway.

[mattress]

He doesn't want to do Kessler in too badly, or Kesslers name losses meaning.

That's always been Calzaghes problem though. He makes decent fighters look bad and suddenly the deposed challenger is being made out as useless (Lacy). People just don't like giving some people credit when it's overdue.

[box03]

That's always been Calzaghes problem though. He makes decent fighters look bad and suddenly the deposed challenger is being made out as useless (Lacy). People just don't like giving some people credit when it's overdue. The problem with Calzaghe is alot of americans never seen him on hbo or showtime before so like they really only heard about him, wether its true or not he before the Lacy fight he was looked at as a fighter that was well protected and never fought the big name fighters. After I seen him destroy Lacy I gave him the props he deserved, its just too bad he didnt fight too many big name fighters in america cause that could of helped his career.

[mattress]

its just too bad he didnt fight too many big name fighters in america cause that could of helped his career.

It's not his fault that most wouldn't fight him (I ain't gonna argue over that one!) but Lacy was the clear favourite with most boxing writers, fans and the bookies. What more can you do but school him?

[China_hand_Joe]

People seem adverse to giving him credit based on what they cans see in front of them with their eyes. They demand big names on a fighters record. However when you see someone as good as Calzaghe, you don't need massive victories as reference to make some huge claims.

[DanePugilist]

The problem with Calzaghe was that Kessler had to call that motherfucker out for 3 years, before JC stepped up to the plate - and now he will get KTFO in an embarrassing way.

Almost not even closely remotely kidding you not.

[mattress]

The problem with Calzaghe was that Kessler had to call that motherfucker out for 3 years, before JC stepped up to the plate - and now he will get KTFO in an embarrassing way.

Almost not even closely remotingly kidding you not.

These are the embarassing, cringeworthy and pathetic posts that I was talking about. Some people really have no class...or clue.

[Dekkers]

People seem adverse to giving him credit based on what they cans see in front of them with their eyes. They demand big names on a fighters record. However when you see someone as good as Calzaghe, you don't need massive victories as reference to make some huge claims.

I understand where you're comming from, I'm the same way with Tszyu :smoke

[box03]

It's not his fault that most wouldn't fight him (I ain't gonna argue over that one!) but Lacy was the clear favourite with most boxing writers, fans and the bookies. What more can you do but school him? I think Hopkins would fight him if he got 60-40 and fought him in the america, I think its a fair offer since Hopkins is a known name and generates more ppv sales. Calzaghe cant even get people to watch him on ppv, half my friends never even heard of him.

[China_hand_Joe]

I understand where you're comming from, I'm the same way with Tszyu :smoke

I consider you to underrate Tszyu.

[DanePugilist]

These are the embarassing, cringeworthy and pathetic posts that I was talking about. Some people really have no class...or clue.These are the stupid posters whom are blind to sarcasm I have been avoiding till now...

[China_hand_Joe]

The problem with Calzaghe was that Kessler had to call that motherfucker out for 3 years, before JC stepped up to the plate - and now he will get KTFO in an embarrassing way.

Almost not even closely remotely kidding you not.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Kessler has always been a little reluctant. Read this article for example, Kessler has just been bribed into it really.

[mattress]

These are the stupid posters whom are blind to sarcasm I have been avoiding till now...

That'll be me :nut. Apologies are in order methinks! Sorry?

[djrock247]

GREAT POST!!!

Boy, I sure am glad that there's somebody out there with "Flawless Boxing Logic".

China Hand Joe,

Your post backs up what I've been saying for years. The GREATEST Pound for Pound fighter of all time is....

GERRY COONEY!!!

Anybody DARE to dispute this undeniable fact???

Gerry Cooney defeated Charlie Polite who defeated Eddie Owens who defeated Rafael Guitierrez who defeated Memo Ayon who dismantled the commonly annointed G.O.A.T., none other than Sugar Ray Robinson,

And so, it is only logical to assume that the greatest pound for pound fighter of all time is NOT SRR but in fact, Gerry Cooney.

Don't you agree, China Hand Joe???

[China_hand_Joe]

GREAT POST!!!

Boy, I sure am glad that there's somebody out there with "Flawless Boxing Logic".

China Hand Joe,

Your post backs up what I've been saying for years. The GREATEST Pound for Pound fighter of all time is....

GERRY COONEY!!!

Anybody DARE to dispute this undeniable fact???

Gerry Cooney defeated Charlie Polite who defeated Eddie Owens who defeated Rafael Guitierrez who defeated Memo Ayon who dismantled the commonly annointed G.O.A.T., none other than Sugar Ray Robinson,

And so, it is only logical to assume that the greatest pound for pound fighter of all time is NOT SRR but in fact, Gerry Cooney.

Don't you agree, China Hand Joe???

I don't quite agree mate.

You said the greatest P4P fighter. Greatness is dependant on names. So Robinson is higher than Calzaghe.

Best P4P is different. This is where Calzaghe places highly, it has nothing to do with resumes.

[DanePugilist]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Kessler has always been a little reluctant. Read this article for example, Kessler has just been bribed into it really.He simply knew that there aren't many fighters like JC to fight, so why not get paid doing it.

[DanePugilist]

That'll be me :nut. Apologies are in order methinks! Sorry?:lol: - apologies accepted:cool:

[China_hand_Joe]

He simply knew that there aren't many fighters like JC to fight, so why not get paid doing it.

There is also a 2005 article in existance. Kessler knew he wasn't ready back then.

[stillafan]

every knowlegable fans knows that styles make fights...I give all credit to Pavlik, but because Taylor loss does not discresit Hopkins....Taylor has the style to beat Bernard, bernard mighty have the style to beat Pavlik...that is how boxing works...

[mattress]

I have seen Kessler fight but ain't convinced he'd the real deal. I just hope he puts in a good show against JC....and loses of course!

[Dekkers]

I consider you to underrate Tszyu.

Thank you :yep

A little off topic but I think the biggest problem for Kessler against Calzaghe is that Kessler fights well off the back foot, but he's only really a monstrous puncher when he's either given or can create some room to plant his feet and/or move forward with his punches.

Kesslers power would be a much bigger factor against somebody with a counterpunching style or an outboxer. Calzaghe is a fantastic swarming, pressure fighter though, Kessler I think will have great difficulty getting any sort of decision, he's got to get a stoppage, and he's got few opportunities to play for a stoppage, short of Joe stepping back hands down and Kessler finding a counter right hand lead. Kessler will likely be fighting backwards... done it against all the quality pressure fighters i've seen him face. Andrade's not a good contradicting example, since Kessler won't be able to plant himself as easily due to Joes much better footwork... uphill battle all the way imo.

[mattress]

He'll have no time or room to plant his feet. Calzaghe has a habit of making decent fighters look bad.

[China_hand_Joe]

Thank you :yep

A little off topic but I think the biggest problem for Kessler against Calzaghe is that Kessler fights well off the back foot, but he's only really a monstrous puncher when he's either given or can create some room to plant his feet and/or move forward with his punches.

Kesslers power would be a much bigger factor against somebody with a counterpunching style or an outboxer. Calzaghe is a fantastic swarming, pressure fighter though, Kessler I think will have great difficulty getting any sort of decision, he's got to get a stoppage, and he's got few opportunities to play for a stoppage, short of Joe stepping back hands down and Kessler finding a counter right hand lead. Kessler will likely be fighting backwards... done it against all the quality pressure fighters i've seen him face. Andrade's not a good contradicting example, since Kessler won't be able to plant himself as easily due to Joes much better footwork... uphill battle all the way imo.
Top 10 or 20 of all time Tszyu.

This fight will either be a tense fight. Calzaghe might have to engage him at range, opposed to swarming.

Or it will be a high octane Calzaghe classic. Nothing inbetween.

I honestly cannot picture how the fight will go. Kessler's power won't be a massive factor I agree though.

[box03]

Top 10 or 20 of all time Tszyu.

This fight will either be a tense fight. Calzaghe might have to engage him at range, opposed to swarming.

Or it will be a high octane Calzaghe classic. Nothing inbetween.

I honestly cannot picture how the fight will go. Kessler's power won't be a massive factor I agree though. If Calzaghe gets knocked out like Taylor should he retire?

[mattress]

If Calzaghe gets knocked out like Taylor should he retire?

Of course not. Calzaghe will move up to LH whatever happens, win, lose or draw.

[box03]

Of course not. Calzaghe will move up to LH whatever happens, win, lose or draw. You honestly think he could bang with guys like Tarver and Hopkins, if he loses to Kessler I cant see him doing any better at LH.

[Dekkers]

Top 10 or 20 of all time Tszyu.

This fight will either be a tense fight. Calzaghe might have to engage him at range, opposed to swarming.

Or it will be a high octane Calzaghe classic. Nothing inbetween.

I honestly cannot picture how the fight will go. Kessler's power won't be a massive factor I agree though.

There's certainly hope If Calzaghe starts showing his age. a few months ago I said, "Joe is ready for the taking" but I hate making any assessment on that sort of unknown variable, that's why I didn't bet on Taylor showing improvement (though he showed some and almost came out on top as a result), when he hadn't shown it in previous fights.

[China_hand_Joe]

There's certainly hope If Calzaghe starts showing his age. This has been giving me sleepless nights.

[mattress]

You honestly think he could bang with guys like Tarver and Hopkins, if he loses to Kessler I cant see him doing any better at LH.

I don't think he'll have any problem with them two at all. Do you think they are bigger punchers than Kessler? As for getting knocked out, it can happen to any boxer. All it takes is one lapse and it's goodnight. It doesn't mean you gotta start flipping burgers.

[China_hand_Joe]

If Calzaghe gets knocked out like Taylor should he retire?

Win or lose against Kessler he should take an easy fight against Hopkins or Pavlik then retire. If a dodgy loss, rematch and defeat Kessler.

If he was brutalised by Kessler, stay away from him and only fight Hopkins.

[mattress]

There's certainly hope If Calzaghe starts showing his age.

Personally I can't see this happening to Calzaghe. He keeps himself in great shape between fights and has never really been in any wars. Can't see him ageing during or before the fight.

[box03]

I don't think he'll have any problem with them two at all. Do you think they are bigger punchers than Kessler? As for getting knocked out, it can happen to any boxer. All it takes is one lapse and it's goodnight. It doesn't mean you gotta start flipping burgers. I think Tarvers power is close to Kesslers, I just dont see Calzaghe doing well at LH I think he would fare better at middle where he can fight guys lighter who dont pack as much punch. You know if Kessler does lay Calzaghe out people will just say Joe never really fought anybody and now that he has look what happend, I think thats the prblem with alot of the Euros they our too protected then when they do have to fight it seems like they get blown out. Im not trying to beignorant or anything, that just seems what happends to alot of them.

[box03]

Win or lose against Kessler he should take an easy fight against Hopkins or Pavlik then retire. If a dodgy loss, rematch and defeat Kessler.

If he was brutalised by Kessler, stay away from him and only fight Hopkins. While I do feel Pavlik would be pretty easy for Calzaghe, I cant say the same about Hopkins. Anybody Hopkins fought in the last 5 years win or lose he always is a tough customer, hes veteran that does know how to win fights against good fighters. I see that being a close fight for sure, I cant see that one being easy at all.

[Dekkers]

Personally I can't see this happening to Calzaghe. He keeps himself in great shape between fights and has never really been in any wars. Can't see him ageing during or before the fight.

Doesn't need to be a huge amount, I think his speed has already started to diminish very slightly, just a little extra edge off his speed and reflexes while Kessler comes in a little improved, a little sharper and it could be enough. Especially if Joe injures his hands in the fight, or comes in a little off his game.

[China_hand_Joe]

Hopkins has a bad style for Calzaghe to face. I realise this.

However Calzaghe sheer workrate and volume would see him through no matter what. Hopkins hasn't an equalizer.

[Dekkers]

While I do feel Pavlik would be pretty easy for Calzaghe, I cant say the same about Hopkins. Anybody Hopkins fought in the last 5 years win or lose he always is a tough customer, hes veteran that does know how to win fights against good fighters. I see that being a close fight for sure, I cant see that one being easy at all.

I think the difference in speed, reflexes and workrate would be a bridge to far for Hopkins these days.

[box03]

I think the difference in speed, reflexes and workrate would be a bridge to far for Hopkins these days. I think Hopkins/Calzaghe would be made into a sloppy fight by Hopkins, I think Hopkins would use rough house tactics to take Calzaghe out of his comfort zone and make him fight his fight. I do think Calzaghe is a better boxer but not a better fighter, Hopkins will use his naturally stronger frame to have his way with Calzaghe in the trenches. I see Hopkins knocking him out late in the fight or winning by decision, I learned to never bet against Hopkins.

[Amsterdam]

Hopkins can't KO Taylor or Wright late, but he's going to do it to Calzaghe?

Christ.

[China_hand_Joe]

One think for sure is Hopkins won't knock Calzaghe out. Even if Calzaghe has one hand.

He couldn't KO the smaller Wright nor Taylor...Eastman...etc...etc, nor anyone of note since Johnson. That was a long time ago and before Johnson was Johnson. Calzaghe is durable. It is almost impossible for Hopkins to KO him. Hopkins is not a stoppage specialist.

All he can do is spoil Cazaghe, ruin the fight for the fans and still lose a UD.

[Dekkers]

I think Hopkins/Calzaghe would be made into a sloppy fight by Hopkins, I think Hopkins would use rough house tactics to take Calzaghe out of his comfort zone and make him fight his fight. I do think Calzaghe is a better boxer but not a better fighter, Hopkins will use his naturally stronger frame to have his way with Calzaghe in the trenches. I see Hopkins knocking him out late in the fight or winning by decision, I learned to never bet against Hopkins.
I don't think Hopkins is all that powerful at this stage, Calzaghe was able to push Jeff Lacy around the ring so it's unlikely he'd be overpowered by Hopkins at this stage of his career.

The speed of Calzaghes' combination punching would be a massive problem for the older Hopkins as well, I don't think he's busy or powerful enough to knockout Calzaghe either, Joe has a very solid chin. Hops is experienced, but the fact Joe is a southpaw with a very unique style, and fight inside or out negates that to an extent.

Calzaghes stamina is also excellent, if anyone is likely to tire down the stretch a this point it's Hopkins. He finishes the twelve rounds but nobody has really forced him to raise his workrate in recent fights (well except the Taylor fights, Hops only really came back as Taylor tired). Calzaghes' workrate is massive and he finishes strong, if Hops wants to win rounds he has to work, he's far stronger than Winky (who's leagues above his best weight, Joe will have the legs Winky didn't as a result) and will be far more active than Tarver (who i'm betting against in his next fight).

[KhanB]

One think for sure is Hopkins won't knock Calzaghe out. Even if Calzaghe has one hand.

He couldn't KO the smaller Wright nor Taylor...Eastman...etc...etc, nor anyone of note since Johnson. That was a long time ago and before Johnson was Johnson. Calzaghe is durable. It is almost impossible for Hopkins to KO him. Hopkins is not a stoppage specialist.

All he can do is spoil Cazaghe, ruin the fight for the fans and still lose a UD.

All you do is think of Hopkins. You think of him more than me and im his fan. Face it, Hops victories over Tarver and Wright have more of a lasting impact with historians.

[China_hand_Joe]

Face it, Hops victories over Tarver and Wright have more of a lasting impact with historians.

As a fair and just human being does that not enrage you?

[Dekkers]

All you do is think of Hopkins. You think of him more than me and im his fan. Face it, Hops victories over Tarver and Wright have more of a lasting impact with historians.

We're not discussing legacy, we're discussing head to head, here and now.

[DanePugilist]

There is also a 2005 article in existance. Kessler knew he wasn't ready back then.That must have been while he was uncertain if the back injuries had destroyed his career. He had called out JC since Siaca, but FW declined - and rightfully so - Kessler was not on the map.

[KhanB]

Ive got a friend who says that if Calzaghe fights Hops at 170, the extra weight would hurt Joe. I didnt agree. Calzaghe could possibly get a UD over Hops at this point due to his high punch rate. Hops would need to take it back 2 years for me to guarantee a victory.

[DanePugilist]

All you do is think of Hopkins. You think of him more than me and im his fan. Face it, Hops victories over Tarver and Wright have more of a lasting impact with historians.Historians with no insight to boxing? Yeah, the world is full of those - sadly.

[BoxingGuru]

Joe Calzaghe is a fucking joke. So is his #1 fanboy and boyfriend. Enjoy it while you can, because the minute he actually fights someone good he's losing, probably by knockout, and we're not talking about Jeff Lacy who almost lost to Tsypko. A real fighter. And maybe the referee won't step in when Calzaghe starts to tickle the other fighter like he did in the last fight.

Keep acting like Hopkins and Pavlik are easy fights for Joe, because you know he'll never fight them. He's avoided Roy Jones, Hopkins, and everyone else good his entire career, and it will never change.

[bigtime9]

hopkins based off his last performance should retire, along with winky. neither one can beat a young pavlik (25). b-hops might eke out a decision against joe since joe is pushing 36 and has no punch.

[China_hand_Joe]

Joe Calzaghe is a fucking joke. So is his #1 fanboy and boyfriend. Enjoy it while you can, because the minute he actually fights someone good he's losing, probably by knockout, and we're not talking about Jeff Lacy who almost lost to Tsypko. A real fighter. And maybe the referee won't step in when Calzaghe starts to tickle the other fighter like he did in the last fight.Kessler is a real fighter.

[DanePugilist]

Ive got a friend who says that if Calzaghe fights Hops at 170, the extra weight would hurt Joe. I didnt agree. Calzaghe could possibly get a UD over Hops at this point due to his high punch rate. Hops would need to take it back 2 years for me to guarantee a victory.It wouldn't hurt him at all - what would 2 lbs do? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Hopkins would be outpointed throughout the fight, and when he gets tired he will look worse, but I think he will survive...

[China_hand_Joe]

Ive got a friend who says that if Calzaghe fights Hops at 170, the extra weight would hurt Joe. I didnt agree. Calzaghe could possibly get a UD over Hops at this point due to his high punch rate. Hops would need to take it back 2 years for me to guarantee a victory.

All two pound of extra weight?

Though Hopkins would obviously want it at 175.

[DanePugilist]

Joe Calzaghe is a fucking joke. So is his #1 fanboy and boyfriend. Enjoy it while you can, because the minute he actually fights someone good he's losing, probably by knockout, and we're not talking about Jeff Lacy who almost lost to Tsypko. A real fighter. And maybe the referee won't step in when Calzaghe starts to tickle the other fighter like he did in the last fight.

Keep acting like Hopkins and Pavlik are easy fights for Joe, because you know he'll never fight them. He's avoided Roy Jones, Hopkins, and everyone else good his entire career, and it will never change.Well he has already called out Pavlik... I think Pavlik will take the bait, unlike the other jokes.

[KhanB]

It wouldn't hurt him at all - what would 2 lbs do? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Hopkins would be outpointed throughout the fight, and when he gets tired he will look worse, but I think he will survive...

Hopkins always survives. I would still probably favor him at fight time. No matter, Hops didnt have to come back from retirement to beat Winky, that was a bonus. If Calzaghe decisioned it wouldnt hurt Hopkins all time standing. Maybe if Calzaghe fought in United States a few times he would get more exposure.

[box03]

I don't think Hopkins is all that powerful at this stage, Calzaghe was able to push Jeff Lacy around the ring so it's unlikely he'd be overpowered by Hopkins at this stage of his career.

The speed of Calzaghes' combination punching would be a massive problem for the older Hopkins as well, I don't think he's busy or powerful enough to knockout Calzaghe either, Joe has a very solid chin. Hops is experienced, but the fact Joe is a southpaw with a very unique style, and fight inside or out negates that to an extent.

Calzaghes stamina is also excellent, if anyone is likely to tire down the stretch a this point it's Hopkins. He finishes the twelve rounds but nobody has really forced him to raise his workrate in recent fights (well except the Taylor fights, Hops only really came back as Taylor tired). Calzaghes' workrate is massive and he finishes strong, if Hops wants to win rounds he has to work, he's far stronger than Winky (who's leagues above his best weight, Joe will have the legs Winky didn't as a result) and will be far more active than Tarver (who i'm betting against in his next fight). Good breakdown, I just feel B-hop finds ways to beat good fighters. I honestly gave B-hop like 20% chance of beating Tarver because you got to remeber Tarver just got done kicking Jones ass again and beat a tough and game Glen Johnson, but Hopkins came through and got the job done in stunning fashion. I feel Hopkins would make Calzaghe fight his fight and really rough him up, I think its pretty clear that Hopkins is the stronger of the 2 physically and I feel that Hopkins would back Calzaghe up landed his right hand often. I dont know I just see it being a different type fight that Calzaghe never seen before, and Calzaghe would have a hard time dealing with him in the trenches because Calzaghe really wouldnt have the pop to back Hopkins up. I still see it being a UD for Hopkins but I could see it going either way.

[DanePugilist]

Hopkins always survives. I would still probably favor him at fight time. No matter, Hops didnt have to come back from retirement to beat Winky, that was a bonus. If Calzaghe decisioned it wouldnt hurt Hopkins all time standing. Maybe if Calzaghe fought in United States a few times he would get more exposure.So a fighter is only good enough, if he gets US exposure?

[box03]

So a fighter is only good enough, if he gets US exposure? No offense, but if you want to fight a good fighter you have to come here to improve your resume and get more exposure by fighting good oppenents.

[Dekkers]

Good breakdown, I just feel B-hop finds ways to beat good fighters. I honestly gave B-hop like 20% chance of beating Tarver because you got to remeber Tarver just got done kicking Jones ass again and beat a tough and game Glen Johnson, but Hopkins came through and got the job done in stunning fashion. I feel Hopkins would make Calzaghe fight his fight and really rough him up, I think its pretty clear that Hopkins is the stronger of the 2 physically and I feel that Hopkins would back Calzaghe up landed his right hand often. I dont know I just see it being a different type fight that Calzaghe never seen before, and Calzaghe would have a hard time dealing with him in the trenches because Calzaghe really wouldnt have the pop to back Hopkins up. I still see it being a UD for Hopkins but I could see it going either way.
Calzaghe gets decent pop off his punches imo, since his quick hands tend to catch opponents at awkards angles they don't see comming and he follows it up, the sheer volume tends to force stoppages. Also I think that even if this scenario is true and he can't back Hopkins up, his footwork is good enough to get the movement happenning to negate that (he can fight going backwards).

There's only one point I disagree with strongly though and that's the idea of Hopkins overpowering Calzaghe, he may be strong enough to tie him up, but certainly not stong enough to rough him up/bully him around (I also think he'd tire out more quickly if he tried). Lacy was extremely strong, and i'm not saying that because he was ripped :lol:, I also say it because he often pushed fighters around and roughed them up on the way to his stoppage wins, and he was the strongest puncher on his U.S olympic team (from memory, correct me if i'm wrong)... that's a lot of raw physical power for a man who's not a heavyweight.

[DanePugilist]

No offense, but if you want to fight a good fighter you have to come here to improve your resume and get more exposure by fighting good oppenents.And that would mean US boxers? Or at least getting them to the shores of USA, so they are transformed into better boxers, hence better resume?

And no offence, your trivial circle jerking cycle has been broken, maybe you should reconsider all you have believed in for quite some time; Winky is fading, Tarver is shot, RJJ is shot, Hopkin handspicks fights to hide his low workrate and the fact that he is way past prime, Taylor is - yeah well you saw it I reckon.

[DanePugilist]

Hopkins fought the best and beat the best.Lets face it Taylor won all rounds with Pavlick and even though he lost he fought really well,Falzaghe would never have recovered from that second round.
You cant put Falzaghe as an A class fighter,the guy hasnt fought anyone yet,he is one hell lot of a man,managed by Fraud ******,whom we all know protects his fighters,for some reason the British buy into itI think you need the hubble scope for glasses, because your own eyes dont work too well for you.

Hopkins never beat RJJ - he was good once, but no more, and thus he loses his elite status. Taylor did not win all rounds, please adjust the hubble scope or stop smear butter on them.

Calzaghe would have recovered from the beating - compare with Mitchell fight, secondly he wouldnt have been KD'd by Taylor.

[Still~style]

Elite class - Calzaghe, Kessler
B+ class - Pavlik
B class - Taylor
B- class - Hopkins, Mundine


nobody can take what you say seriously because you have such an anti-american bias, and the list above proves you know absolutely nothing about boxing styles, skills, and scenarios.

[Luigi1985]

Hopkins fought the best and beat the best.Lets face it Taylor won all rounds with Pavlick and even though he lost he fought really well,Falzaghe would never have recovered from that second round.
You cant put Falzaghe as an A class fighter,the guy hasnt fought anyone yet,he is one hell lot of a man,managed by Fraud ******,whom we all know protects his fighters,for some reason the British buy into it




:lol:

[Luigi1985]

Unless you are Stevie Wonder or something,you should really have seen who was ahead in that match



Look, I´m not the type of jackass-poster, who says now things like "I told ya Taylor was a fraud, etc...", I respect Jermain like every fighter, IMO he´s clearly one of the best fighters at 160 lbs., he also showed a good performance, his downfall was to brawl later too much with the harder-punching Pavlik. I know that it sucks that a lot of people here diss him and all that, but don´t make the same mistake and say things like that Taylor won all rounds until the 7th round, because it´s just not true and you also know it...

[Skital]

Hopkins is like a slower Taylor, with a more solid chin. Of course he loses to Pavlik.

No way. Hopkins beats Pavlik. Hopkins is nothing like Taylor. How can you say that? :huh They are nothing alike whatsoever.

[Lupe]

I'm glad that finally real fans are starting to see thru the Hopkins bullshit.
I have bee saying it all along: Hopkins is way overrated. Why?

Let me tell you:
1.The Milkman has milked the MW division for over a decade, calling out former lightweights, former jnr lightweights and former welterweights.

2.His biggest wins come over a guy who started at 140, and a guy who started at 130.

3.Hopkins is a natural light heavy weight. LIGHTHEAVYWEIGHT!!!! For goodness sake.

4.He avoided amongst other things, a rematch with Jones, a fight with Toney & Calzhage when these were logical fights that fans wanted.

5.Lost to a very green J Taylor – not once – but twice. Can you imagine a real ATG (like Hagler) losing to such a fighter?

Now you want me to believe that the Milkman is one of the top 10 best MW of all time?

Putting the Pavlik-Taylor fight into perspective: It’s not that people feel that Pavlik would beat Hopkins (that's another debate). It’s that people feel that Taylor was finally exposed. If Hopkins was such a special fighter then he would have taken advantage of Taylor’s weaknesses.

So, that is why Hopkins is overrated.

[Carlos Primera]

And that would mean US boxers? Or at least getting them to the shores of USA, so they are transformed into better boxers, hence better resume?

And no offence, your trivial circle jerking cycle has been broken, maybe you should reconsider all you have believed in for quite some time; Winky is fading, Tarver is shot, RJJ is shot, Hopkin handspicks fights to hide his low workrate and the fact that he is way past prime, Taylor is - yeah well you saw it I reckon.
i kind of agree with you dane, but it actually depends. take for example pacquiao, if he had'nt went to the states to get all the big fights, no one would be giving him any credit if stayed in the thailand-japan-korea-australia-philippines circuit over in asia. in pacs case going over to the US to fight the best competition for the best money he would'nt find anywhere else this justifes the "america allows you to fight the best, for the most money" line of thinking.

JC on the other hand is a totally different case. since RJJ vacated SMW, SMW has been looked over by american fighters who fought at MW and lt.hvy for the best money against known american names. so JCC staying in europe to fight most of the top 10 SMW fighters(who were euros) is entirely justified. people should'nt piss on calzaghes resume for the lack of american names, because most of those european guys he fought were top 10 contenders. it's just now that people are starting to come around that it's a deep division full of talent.

[DanePugilist]

i kind of agree with you dane, but it actually depends. take for example pacquiao, if he had'nt went to the states to get all the big fights, no one would be giving him any credit if stayed in the thailand-japan-korea-australia-philippines circuit over in asia. in pacs case going over to the US to fight the best competition for the best money he would'nt find anywhere else this justifes the "america allows you to fight the best, for the most money" line of thinking.

JC on the other hand is a totally different case. since RJJ vacated SMW, SMW has been looked over by american fighters who fought at MW and lt.hvy for the best money against known american names. so JCC staying in europe to fight most of the top 10 SMW fighters(who were euros) is entirely justified. people should'nt piss on calzaghes resume for the lack of american names, because most of those european guys he fought were top 10 contenders. it's just now that people are starting to come around that it's a deep division full of talent.Pac would have been just as skilled a boxer, if he had fought the same guys in Phillipines. Or even some less known, but still skilled boxers.

I agree that the situations are different - and personally I wouldn't rate Calzaghe meeting Hopkins of today very highly. The wide world will give him tons of credit for removing Hopkins, but I wouldn't. Bernard is great for his age, but thats as far as it goes.

Overall, I totally agree with your post - wish more thought of it like that.

[marting]

What a surprise.

Taylor loses, but instead of accepting he is a bit rubbish, they (Americanised persons) make excuses.

Instead of admitting Taylor (and hence Hopkins and Wright) is not that good you are all going elevate Pavlik to god-like status, so you can keep your P4P list full of yanks.


So Taylor is rubbish? I guess you believe that because he gotten beaten another American fighter.

It all fits nicely with your pathetic, single minded agenda of Calzaghe drivel. No balanced assessment, over-the-top, ananlysis that always ends with positioning Calzaghe as the greatest fighter that has ever lived.

[China_hand_Joe]

A bit rubbish mate. Not total garbage, a B level fighter, which is respectable.

[Dorfmeister]

A bit rubbish mate. Not total garbage, a B level fighter, which is respectable.

I tell you what, China_hand_Joe, if Joe comes to perform against Taylor or Pavlik like Herbie Hide did with Riddick Bowe and that's not entirely out of the possibilities, you gonna have to do a lot of homework so that you can come to face all the members you are assaulting with this thread now, I feel you are not too sure about Joe Calzaghe's so called-many advantages over the american brothers or else you wouldn't underrate the best fighters on Uncle Sam's Territory to promote a classy but still somehow untested Welsh fighter at the highest level...

[BITCH ASS]

Pavlik would beat the fuck out of Kessler.