Liston vs. Charles. 15rds.

[Joe E]

My daughter, who is a Liston fan, would like to know what u guys think. Please discuss. Just for the record, I told her Liston.

[MRBILL]

Liston by KO................. Charles is no Clay / Ali........... Liston falls behind early, but catches Buzzard Charles late.......... Liston by KO 12 over Charles......... Cheerio....

MR.BILL

[Joe E]

Liston by KO................. Charles is no Clay / Ali........... Liston falls behind early, but catches Buzzard Charles late.......... Liston by KO 12 over Charles......... Cheerio....

MR.BILLThats what I told my daughter, Bill. Charles was tough, but not tough enough.

[MRBILL]

Charles LOST 2 X to Marciano...................... Styles make fights................. Liston was a MONSTER for his era............ His jab was awesome......... Pre '63 Liston was a killer in the ring.......... The '60 Liston kayo's the '50 Charles......... It goes a while, but Liston catches him and stops Charles in wicked fashion.......... Peace........

MR.BILL

[JohnThomas1]

Liston would stop him.

[MRBILL]

Liston would stop him.

:good:good:hey:p

We Agree........... FINALLY!!!:thumbsup

MR.BILL:deal:bbb:hi:

[MRBILL]

Mr. Thomas,

I'd like and appreciate your view on my 'Sherlock Holmes' Thread in the lounge.......
:hat:deal

MR.BILL

[Joe E]

yes i agree.:D

[PetethePrince]

Liston by mid TKO or decision.

[JohnThomas1]

:good:good:hey:p

We Agree........... FINALLY!!!:thumbsup

MR.BILL:deal:bbb:hi:

Maybe not in two other threads :lol:

[Longhhorn71]

Charles pulls a Marty Marshall and breaks Liston's jaw while clowning around.

Charles by SD.

[Joe E]

Charles pulls a Marty Marshall and breaks Liston's jaw while clowning around.

Charles by SD.There is a case to be made for that Horn, as strange as that may sound to some. Charles had the stones. Both Men were strong with a good inside game. Charles the better boxer and quicker then Liston could very well punch and get out of the way of the slower Liston. Past prime Charles stood up to Marciano in a 15rd. War and wasn't so much as knocked down or ever really in trouble. And who's to say who hit harder, Liston or Marciano. I'd still shade toward Sonny but could be surprised at an SD for a prime Charles.

[turpinr]

much as i think ezzard is the best light heavy of all time i believe charles sonny would bust him up.

[Joe E]

much as i think ezzard is the best light heavy of all time i believe charles sonny would bust him up.I tend to agree T, however, I don't believe Liston would have it all his way. This isn't Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, or Albert Westphal. I think a prime Charles give Sonny some trouble. It would be an interesting bout to say the least.

[turpinr]

I tend to agree T, however, I don't believe Liston would have it all his way. This isn't Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, or Albert Westphal. I think a prime Charles give Sonny some trouble. It would be an interesting bout to say the least.i don't think ez would dent sonny at all.i've been wrong before though.:D

[OBCboxer]

Liston by late TKO/KO

[Joe E]

i don't think ez would dent sonny at all.i've been wrong before though.:DIt isn't a question of right or wrong, T. Our disscussion is simply a pleasant diversion. :good

[KTFO]

Charles by late round stoppage. Liston's chin was horrible.

[Hookie]

Both were great fighters. Charles abilities at HW are underrated IMO. He was often outweighed but it didn't matter.

Charles had better footwork, much faster hands, better defense, and he was more accurate.

Liston was heavier by about 20-25Lbs and the harder puncher. Liston had a much longer reach. They were both almost 6'1".

Liston had a good jab but Charles was quick and elusive and would be able to slip many of them and fire back counter punches. Liston would land some hard shots and he would rock Charles, maybe even drop him once or twice. He'd have trouble landing 2 or 3 hard shots in a row though.

Charles had decent power at HW, enough to keep Liston off of him when he had to... for the most part. Charles also had a good chin. Charles was down a few times but he recovered from punishment very well. He was a well conditioned fighter with great stamina.

Charles beat a past prime Louis but it was still a good Louis. Louis was the harder puncher, he outweighed Charles by over 30Lbs, had a longer reach, and was an inch taller.

Jersey Joe Walcott was similar in size to Louis (just a tiny bit smaller). Charles fought Walcott 4 times. Charles won the first two fights and many felt the 4th fight as well. Walcott stopped Charles in 7 rounds in their 3rd fight (Charles had won his last 24 fights including 2 over Walcott prior to this fight). Charles was able to drop Walcott once in 4 fights.

Charles beat the hard punching Archie Moore 3 times at LHW, once by KO (KO8).

In Charles' 98th and 99th pro fights he fought Marciano and gave him hell. He took Marciano's shots well in both fights despite being past prime (L15 and LKOby8).

Don't look at how Liston did vs. Patterson when thinking about how this fight would go. Patterson and Charles may have had a few similarities but they were completely different fighters. Patterson liked to brawl. Charles was more technically sound.

Liston was troubled by a few smaller HWs in his career-

Johnny Summerlin (aprox. 195Lbs.) lost two 8 round decisions to Liston but had his moments in both fights.

He lost to Marty Marshall who was about 180Lbs. Marshall dropped Liston twice and broke his jaw in their 3 fights.

Eddie Machen (aprox. 195Lbs) had his moments vs. Liston but clealry lost by decision.

Liston couldn't put the 195Lb Bert Whitehurst away on 2 occasions even though Archie Moore had already done it twice.

[Hookie]

Charles by close decision

[junior-soprano]

Charles by late round stoppage. Liston's chin was horrible.

i think that is not true. i am not saying he has one of the best chin's but it was decent enough

[Joe E]

Both were great fighters. Charles abilities at HW are underrated IMO. He was often outweighed but it didn't matter.

Charles had better footwork, much faster hands, better defense, and he was more accurate.

Liston was heavier by about 20-25Lbs and the harder puncher. Liston had a much longer reach. They were both almost 6'1".

Liston had a good jab but Charles was quick and elusive and would be able to slip many of them and fire back counter punches. Liston would land some hard shots and he would rock Charles, maybe even drop him once or twice. He'd have trouble landing 2 or 3 hard shots in a row though.

Charles had decent power at HW, enough to keep Liston off of him when he had to... for the most part. Charles also had a good chin. Charles was down a few times but he recovered from punishment very well. He was a well conditioned fighter with great stamina.

Charles beat a past prime Louis but it was still a good Louis. Louis was the harder puncher, he outweighed Charles by over 30Lbs, had a longer reach, and was an inch taller.

Jersey Joe Walcott was similar in size to Louis (just a tiny bit smaller). Charles fought Walcott 4 times. Charles won the first two fights and many felt the 4th fight as well. Walcott stopped Charles in 7 rounds in their 3rd fight (Charles had won his last 24 fights including 2 over Walcott prior to this fight). Charles was able to drop Walcott once in 4 fights.

Charles beat the hard punching Archie Moore 3 times at LHW, once by KO (KO8).

In Charles' 98th and 99th pro fights he fought Marciano and gave him hell. He took Marciano's shots well in both fights despite being past prime (L15 and LKOby8).

Don't look at how Liston did vs. Patterson when thinking about how this fight would go. Patterson and Charles may have had a few similarities but they were completely different fighters. Patterson liked to brawl. Charles was more technically sound.

Liston was troubled by a few smaller HWs in his career-

Johnny Summerlin (aprox. 195Lbs.) lost two 8 round decisions to Liston but had his moments in both fights.

He lost to Marty Marshall who was about 180Lbs. Marshall dropped Liston twice and broke his jaw in their 3 fights.

Eddie Machen (aprox. 195Lbs) had his moments vs. Liston but clealry lost by decision.

Liston couldn't put the 195Lb Bert Whitehurst away on 2 occasions even though Archie Moore had already done it twice.This is actually a very good analysis of this dream fight. This would not be a walk over by any means for Liston.

[Hookie]

This is actually a very good analysis of this dream fight. This would not be a walk over by any means for Liston.

thank you sir

[Duodenum]

Both were great fighters. Charles abilities at HW are underrated IMO. He was often outweighed but it didn't matter.

Charles had better footwork, much faster hands, better defense, and he was more accurate.

Liston was heavier by about 20-25Lbs and the harder puncher. Liston had a much longer reach. They were both almost 6'1".

Liston had a good jab but Charles was quick and elusive and would be able to slip many of them and fire back counter punches. Liston would land some hard shots and he would rock Charles, maybe even drop him once or twice. He'd have trouble landing 2 or 3 hard shots in a row though.

Charles had decent power at HW, enough to keep Liston off of him when he had to... for the most part. Charles also had a good chin. Charles was down a few times but he recovered from punishment very well. He was a well conditioned fighter with great stamina.

Charles beat a past prime Louis but it was still a good Louis. Louis was the harder puncher, he outweighed Charles by over 30Lbs, had a longer reach, and was an inch taller.

Jersey Joe Walcott was similar in size to Louis (just a tiny bit smaller). Charles fought Walcott 4 times. Charles won the first two fights and many felt the 4th fight as well. Walcott stopped Charles in 7 rounds in their 3rd fight (Charles had won his last 24 fights including 2 over Walcott prior to this fight). Charles was able to drop Walcott once in 4 fights.

Charles beat the hard punching Archie Moore 3 times at LHW, once by KO (KO8).

In Charles' 98th and 99th pro fights he fought Marciano and gave him hell. He took Marciano's shots well in both fights despite being past prime (L15 and LKO by 8).

Don't look at how Liston did vs. Patterson when thinking about how this fight would go. Patterson and Charles may have had a few similarities but they were completely different fighters. Patterson liked to brawl. Charles was more technically sound.

Liston was troubled by a few smaller HWs in his career-

Johnny Summerlin (aprox. 195Lbs.) lost two 8 round decisions to Liston but had his moments in both fights.

He lost to Marty Marshall who was about 180Lbs. Marshall dropped Liston twice and broke his jaw in their 3 fights.

Eddie Machen (aprox. 195Lbs) had his moments vs. Liston but clealry lost by decision.

Liston couldn't put the 195Lb Bert Whitehurst away on 2 occasions even though Archie Moore had already done it twice.Superb post. I'll also add that Leotis Martin was under 200 pounds when he knocked Liston out.

When Walcott did knock Ezz out, he did it to an uninspired champion who complained before that match that he couldn't get himself worked up properly to face Jersey Joe a third time. Still, it took a punch with impeccable timing and delivery to get the job done. Charles would certainly be fully worked up to take on Sonny.

Liston's relative lack of speed could cost him dearly here. Ezz arguably had more skills and smarts than Machen, Whitehurst, Martin, Summerlin and Marshall put together. Watch Satterfield try to tear Ezzard's head off in the opening round. Charles is not Patterson as a deer in the headlights with Liston. If Sonny did manage to drop him or otherwise get Ezz in trouble, he was hardly an infallible finisher, as Whitehurst and Martin demonstrated. He wasn't the master of cutting off the ring that Foreman was.

I do think Charles would neutralize Sonny's jab with his speed, mobility and defensive skills.

[KTFO]

i think that is not true. i am not saying he has one of the best chin's but it was decent enough


Ali wasn't a heavy puncher. Nevertheless a phantom punch got the job done. Liston's decent chin was a myth.

[Bokaj]

Machen was probably the closest to Charles that Liston met, but Charles was better. Liston close UD or perhaps even SD.

[groove]

stay off the pills if u don't think liston would win big. i've seen charles slugging it out with light heavies (actually that was the actual heavyweight division in his era believe it or not - only small guys back then were any good) and i would love to see him do that against liston :lol:

[The Mongoose]

Interesting...

Shame so many are overlooking Charles when he has the composure, tools, and proven ability to pull off the upset. In terms of size and intimidating power, the much avoided Elmer Ray was very comparable to Liston when Charles stopped him in their rematch.

Charles slipping and bombing on the bigger Wallace in route to a vicious knockout.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Liston frustrated but in control against the smaller slicker Machen.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[turpinr]

Charles by late round stoppage. Liston's chin was horrible.
there weren't too many heavies with a better chin than liston

[ChrisPontius]

stay off the pills if u don't think liston would win big. i've seen charles slugging it out with light heavies (actually that was the actual heavyweight division in his era believe it or not - only small guys back then were any good) and i would love to see him do that against liston :lol:

Liston was knocked down and beaten by a lightheavy, so you might want to be careful in your choice of words.

[Stonehands89]

1959 Liston. 1949 Charles.

Charles has a chance to take a decision due to his superb boxing skills. Oddly enough, his dulled killer instinct after the Baroudi fight would help him. Although, there was no trace of that against Marciano. Put it this way, if Ezzard fights like he "has something to prove" like he did against the Rock then he won't finish. He would get stopped mid-way through.

If he stands off and plays matador, he would go the distance. I'd say the chances are about 65-70% that he would go down at least once and that would cost him the decision. If he didn't go down, it would be a close verdict and he may even win...

[red cobra]

Maybe Ezz would pull an Eddie Machen and evade Liston and survive 15 rounds.

[he grant]

Yes Chris, even though he was close to forty five and on drugs. I guess these small facts should have no influence on your point.

Liston had a terrific chin, period.

[TheGreatA]

I don't think Charles was one to pull an "Eddie Machen", atleast I've never seen him do it. He didn't really try to avoid any punching exchanges.

[ChrisPontius]

Yes Chris, even though he was close to forty five and on drugs. I guess these small facts should have no influence on your point.

Liston had a terrific chin, period.

Actually he was about 23 years old when that happened.

[Bummy Davis]

Charles was no Floyd Patterson in the chin?head department(even though Floyd improved when he learned to relax in the ring) and he was not one to be intimindated. The fighters that gave Liston and Ali trouble throughout his career was the faster, smaller guys, Marshall,Machen and Leotis Martin and Ali...I like Charles to overcome any rough patches and hit Sonny harder than Ali could...I like Charles by UD but He could make Sonny quit...Sonny never fought someone of Charles quality and when h did he lost

[TheGreatA]

Charles was more like Zora Folley if anything.

[natonic]

Both were great fighters. Charles abilities at HW are underrated IMO. He was often outweighed but it didn't matter.

Charles had better footwork, much faster hands, better defense, and he was more accurate.

Liston was heavier by about 20-25Lbs and the harder puncher. Liston had a much longer reach. They were both almost 6'1".

Liston had a good jab but Charles was quick and elusive and would be able to slip many of them and fire back counter punches. Liston would land some hard shots and he would rock Charles, maybe even drop him once or twice. He'd have trouble landing 2 or 3 hard shots in a row though.

Charles had decent power at HW, enough to keep Liston off of him when he had to... for the most part. Charles also had a good chin. Charles was down a few times but he recovered from punishment very well. He was a well conditioned fighter with great stamina.

Charles beat a past prime Louis but it was still a good Louis. Louis was the harder puncher, he outweighed Charles by over 30Lbs, had a longer reach, and was an inch taller.

Jersey Joe Walcott was similar in size to Louis (just a tiny bit smaller). Charles fought Walcott 4 times. Charles won the first two fights and many felt the 4th fight as well. Walcott stopped Charles in 7 rounds in their 3rd fight (Charles had won his last 24 fights including 2 over Walcott prior to this fight). Charles was able to drop Walcott once in 4 fights.

Charles beat the hard punching Archie Moore 3 times at LHW, once by KO (KO8).

In Charles' 98th and 99th pro fights he fought Marciano and gave him hell. He took Marciano's shots well in both fights despite being past prime (L15 and LKOby8).

Don't look at how Liston did vs. Patterson when thinking about how this fight would go. Patterson and Charles may have had a few similarities but they were completely different fighters. Patterson liked to brawl. Charles was more technically sound.

Liston was troubled by a few smaller HWs in his career-

Johnny Summerlin (aprox. 195Lbs.) lost two 8 round decisions to Liston but had his moments in both fights.

He lost to Marty Marshall who was about 180Lbs. Marshall dropped Liston twice and broke his jaw in their 3 fights.

Eddie Machen (aprox. 195Lbs) had his moments vs. Liston but clealry lost by decision.

Liston couldn't put the 195Lb Bert Whitehurst away on 2 occasions even though Archie Moore had already done it twice.

Really good post. I'm not totally on board with your outcome but think Charles is being sold a little short. I'll say Charles troubles Sonny greatly for much of the fight but Sonny catches him at some point. We've seen Charles stopped before and ultimately I think Sonny catches him. No way an easy fight and unlikely that Sonny "Pattersons" Ezzard.

[robert ungurean]

I'll take Charles UD.

[Jersey Joe]

Liston would stop him.

If Bert Whitehurst can go the distance twice with Liston, then Charles has a fair shot, and he is clearly skilled enough that he might do a Spinks and edge out a decision.

I would favour Liston but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion.

[Bummy Davis]

Both were great fighters. Charles abilities at HW are underrated IMO. He was often outweighed but it didn't matter.

Charles had better footwork, much faster hands, better defense, and he was more accurate.

Liston was heavier by about 20-25Lbs and the harder puncher. Liston had a much longer reach. They were both almost 6'1".

Liston had a good jab but Charles was quick and elusive and would be able to slip many of them and fire back counter punches. Liston would land some hard shots and he would rock Charles, maybe even drop him once or twice. He'd have trouble landing 2 or 3 hard shots in a row though.

Charles had decent power at HW, enough to keep Liston off of him when he had to... for the most part. Charles also had a good chin. Charles was down a few times but he recovered from punishment very well. He was a well conditioned fighter with great stamina.

Charles beat a past prime Louis but it was still a good Louis. Louis was the harder puncher, he outweighed Charles by over 30Lbs, had a longer reach, and was an inch taller.

Jersey Joe Walcott was similar in size to Louis (just a tiny bit smaller). Charles fought Walcott 4 times. Charles won the first two fights and many felt the 4th fight as well. Walcott stopped Charles in 7 rounds in their 3rd fight (Charles had won his last 24 fights including 2 over Walcott prior to this fight). Charles was able to drop Walcott once in 4 fights.

Charles beat the hard punching Archie Moore 3 times at LHW, once by KO (KO8).

In Charles' 98th and 99th pro fights he fought Marciano and gave him hell. He took Marciano's shots well in both fights despite being past prime (L15 and LKOby8).

Don't look at how Liston did vs. Patterson when thinking about how this fight would go. Patterson and Charles may have had a few similarities but they were completely different fighters. Patterson liked to brawl. Charles was more technically sound.

Liston was troubled by a few smaller HWs in his career-

Johnny Summerlin (aprox. 195Lbs.) lost two 8 round decisions to Liston but had his moments in both fights.

He lost to Marty Marshall who was about 180Lbs. Marshall dropped Liston twice and broke his jaw in their 3 fights.

Eddie Machen (aprox. 195Lbs) had his moments vs. Liston but clealry lost by decision.

Liston couldn't put the 195Lb Bert Whitehurst away on 2 occasions even though Archie Moore had already done it twice.

some very good points

[red cobra]

Charles was more like Zora Folley if anything.
It would be better if Ezz was more like Eddie Machen, but just a bit less negative.

[red cobra]

Charles was beautiful..controlled and beautiful against Louis..and I don't care if it was an over the hill Louis..like an earlier poster said..he was still dangerous. The Charles of the Louis fight had a good chance against Liston.

[choklab]

a peak charles from 47-53 was a real force. he iced some big tough guys like joe baksi and coley walace that were as big as liston. liston had a mighty reach though but marty marsahal beat him and always gave him a tough fight and he was no bigger than charles. bert whithurst made liston do a funny dance in the first round and he was charles size also, in fact moore kod whithurst two times and liston could not in 20rounds, even if he had burt down in the final moments. zora foley was a poormans charles a great fighter but no charles. liston kod him but zora did get kod a few times before that and he claimed liston had the burning stuff on his gloves that night. i pick a peak charles over sonny to win on late stoppage.