Rank These 6 Fighters In Order Of Greatness!

[Frazier Hook]

.Salvador Sanchez
.Kid Chocolate
.Thomas Hearns
.Carlos Ortiz
.Miguel Canto
.Tiger Flowers

This should be very interesting debate. Rank there 6 fighters in order of greatness.......

[anarci]

Sanchez
Hearns
Flowers almost put him tied with Hearns
Ortiz
Canto
Chocolate

I see you pretty much put guys that on par with each other. I think Sanchez is definitley 1 here (although he wasnt around as long as the others) I had a hard time seperating Canto and Chocolate but i gave it to Canto since he was king of his weight class longer.

[Frazier Hook]

Sanchez
Hearns
Flowers almost put him tied with Hearns
Ortiz
Canto
Chocolate

I see you pretty much put guys that on par with each other. I think Sanchez is definitley 1 here (although he wasnt around as long as the others) I had a hard time seperating Canto and Chocolate but i gave it to Canto since he was king of his weight class longer.

:good Yep.

[TommyV]

Why Ortiz so low?

[anarci]

Why Ortiz so low? Considering the company there i dont think thats low.

[My2Sense]

.Salvador Sanchez
.Kid Chocolate
.Thomas Hearns
.Carlos Ortiz
.Miguel Canto
.Tiger Flowers


Ortiz
Hearns
Sanchez
Flowers
Canto
Chocolate

[Rise Above]

Ortiz
Hearns
Sanchez
Flowers
Chocolate
Canto
I was unsure about where to put Canto as I know stuff all about the guy. I ranked him last due to my own lack of knowledge.

[Sweet Pea]

Ortiz
Chocolate
Hearns
Canto
Sanchez
Flowers

[sweet_scientist]

37. Carlos Ortiz

54. Miguel Canto

59. Thomas Hearns

66. Salvador Sanchez

103. Kid Chocolate

117. Tiger Flowers

[anarci]

Hey Fraizer hook why dont you do a point system at the end of this thread 6pts for #1,5 for 2nd, etc etc. thought id help you out so far it looks like this

Ortiz 27 points
Hearns 23
Sanchez 19
Canto 13
Flowers 12
Chocolate 11

[TommyV]

Ortiz
Sanchez
Hearns
Chocolate
Canto
Flowers

[Flea Man]

Ortiz
Hearns
Sanchez
Chocolate
Canto
Flowers

EDIT: Ohhh, it's CARLOS Ortiz. I shoulda read.

[ricardoparker93]

37. Carlos Ortiz

54. Miguel Canto

59. Thomas Hearns

66. Salvador Sanchez

103. Kid Chocolate

117. Tiger Flowers

There are 58 fighters with a better resume/ accomplishments than Thomas Hearns? You dont seem to rate these fighters :lol:

[ricardoparker93]

1. Sanchez
2. Hearns
3. Ortiz
4. Canto
5. Flowers
6. Chocolate

[Flea Man]

There are 58 fighters with a better resume/ accomplishments than Thomas Hearns? You dont seem to rate these fighters :lol:

He has himself vowed to go over his list again.

However, the man has his reasons, and it would be wise for you not to engage him on the matter friend.

[Frazier Hook]

Pretty shocked Ortiz is mostly everyone's number 1.......Interesting.

[TommyV]

Pretty shocked Ortiz is mostly everyone's number 1.......Interesting.

Why? He's a talented fighter, the unified lineal champion at 135 with a fair few defences, lineal title-holder at 140, he beat guys like Laguna, Loi, Elorde, Brown etc. He's very tough, can bang with either hand, decent speed and technical skills and he can pick you apart with either hand. I think he's got a very good case to be #1 on this list of fighters.

[sweet_scientist]

There are 58 fighters with a better resume/ accomplishments than Thomas Hearns? You dont seem to rate these fighters :lol:

Not sure, I've never evaluated fighters simply in terms of resume/accomplishments. But I believe there are 58 fighters better in terms of a combination of their resumes, level of dominance, longevity and their character. I could see Hearns having a better ranking, but in my opinion 59 is fair.

He has himself vowed to go over his list again.

However, the man has his reasons, and it would be wise for you not to engage him on the matter friend.

Cheers for making me sound like a badass flea!

[Frazier Hook]

Why? He's a talented fighter, the unified lineal champion at 135 with a fair few defences, lineal title-holder at 140, he beat guys like Laguna, Loi, Elorde, Brown etc. He's very tough, can bang with either hand, decent speed and technical skills and he can pick you apart with either hand. I think he's got a very good case to be #1 on this list of fighters.

Am not begrudging him being number #1. But I dont know about him being great than Sanchez, Hearns, or Kid Chocolate to be honest.

[natonic]

Ortiz
Sanchez
Hearns
Canto
Chocolate
Flowers

[asero]

hearns
sanchez
ortiz
flowers
chocolate
canto

[TommyV]

I'm a bit of a fan of Miguel Canto and would of liked to of ranked him higher, but he's in amongst great opposition here.

[ricardoparker93]

Not sure, I've never evaluated fighters simply in terms of resume/accomplishments. But I believe there are 58 fighters better in terms of a combination of their resumes, level of dominance, longevity and their character. I could see Hearns having a better ranking, but in my opinion 59 is fair.



Cheers for making me sound like a badass flea!

Hearns was obviously a weight jumper and not a dominant champion. But would he have gotten a higher ranking if he has stayed at light middle reigning as undisputed champ before moving up to fight Hagler and losing?

His losses to Barkley may well affect his ranking and i'm sure your far more knowledgable about Cantos career than i am but could you post your list. I dont want to draw you into an arguement about it but i just want to see where you have certain guys depending on your criteria.

[sweet_scientist]

Hearns was obviously a weight jumper and not a dominant champion. But would he have gotten a higher ranking if he has stayed at light middle reigning as undisputed champ before moving up to fight Hagler and losing?

His losses to Barkley may well affect his ranking and i'm sure your far more knowledgable about Cantos career than i am but could you post your list. I dont want to draw you into an arguement about it but i just want to see where you have certain guys depending on your criteria.

Assuming Hearns faced guys of a similar calibre (they'd have to be of a higher quality p4p for a weight class more to Hearns liking to be adjudged of a same calibre) then yes, he would rank higher IF he didn't have the losses.

I've changed my list a bit snce the last time I posted it, but here it is the last time I posted it (can't be bothered upping a totally up to date one, but this is close enough) :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Flea Man]

Oh, well, not as demeaning as pulling you up on a scorecard :lol:

[ricardoparker93]

Flea have you had a bad experience with the sweet scientist? :lol:

Anyways after looking into your rankings i see you have tried to simplify the often mind numbingly complicated task of ranking these fighters but perhaps that is an impossible task. They rely completely on the designated figures of course and minor adjustments such as moving Hearns' resume from a 34 to a 36; as i would do, means that he would leap upwards 25 places, and is only four criteria complex enough for such a debate?

Is that list like the IBO's ranking system, well intentioned but ultimately impossible to get correct?

P.s Fleaman after your words i feel a pending humiliation.

[Flea Man]

Nah, but I've seen people question S_S before not realising he has heaps of stats ready to throw onto the table.

He's a guy who does his research. Although it was clear you were just curious other than being rude, I was only kiddin obviously :good

[The Funny Man 7]

1.) Ortiz
2.) Sanchez
3.) Canto
4.) Hearns
5.) Flowers
6.) Chocolate

[GPater11093]

I'm a bit of a fan of Miguel Canto and would of liked to of ranked him higher, but he's in amongst great opposition here.

I love Canto but i feel he was the best of his era he was very inconsistant and picked up afew bizarre losses like a complete shut out to Park then a draw and a UD. But it was a very weird era in all.

Also actual H2H match ups at Flyweight Canto dosent fare too well.

Oh, well, not as demeaning as pulling you up on a scorecard :lol:

:lol::lol:

Me and SS disagree abit on scorecards namely Laguna vs Buchanan 1

[asero]

i pick donaire over canto h2h

[Clinton]

Why? He's a talented fighter, the unified lineal champion at 135 with a fair few defences, lineal title-holder at 140, he beat guys like Laguna, Loi, Elorde, Brown etc. He's very tough, can bang with either hand, decent speed and technical skills and he can pick you apart with either hand. I think he's got a very good case to be #1 on this list of fighters.
True,but higher than Sanchez?

[Mantequilla]

Fuck Donaire.He couldn't hang with guys like Park, Oguma, Espadas or Betulio Gonzalez.

I don't think Canto was inconsistent, he made so many full distance defenses one after the other without any controversy.

No shame in losing to Park when you are slowing down.Park was a huge talent and is a nightmare for any pure boxer.

[GPater11093]

Fuck Donaire.He couldn't hang with guys like Park, Oguma, Espadas or Betulio Gonzalez.

I don't think Canto was inconsistent, he made so many full distance defenses one after the other without any controversy.

No shame in losing to Park when you are slowing down.Park was a huge talent and is a nightmare for any pure boxer.

He was consistent when he got the title, but overrall he was pretty inconsistent.

What happened in the Park rematches?

Also while were on the subject Mante. Ive watched soem Betulio Gonzalez (Canto 2 and 3; Oguma 2) and he gets shut out or nearenough in all of them, how did he beat so many greats and even beat Canto and Oguma?

[sweet_scientist]

Flea have you had a bad experience with the sweet scientist? :lol:

Anyways after looking into your rankings i see you have tried to simplify the often mind numbingly complicated task of ranking these fighters but perhaps that is an impossible task. They rely completely on the designated figures of course and minor adjustments such as moving Hearns' resume from a 34 to a 36; as i would do, means that he would leap upwards 25 places, and is only four criteria complex enough for such a debate?

Is that list like the IBO's ranking system, well intentioned but ultimately impossible to get correct?

P.s Fleaman after your words i feel a pending humiliation.

No need to worry of humiliation.

Lists are subjective, that's the bottom line and if you'd like to give Hearns a better score for his resume, then that's your prerogative.

However, I'd like to think that my criteria are pretty good. The only things I can see that are missing are a category for ability (which was left out not to bias guys we can't see on film) and a category for achievements (winning belts or title defenses and other stats like that are irrelevant to my placings). Otherwise I think it's pretty thorough.

Do you see any gaps in the criteria you'd like to point out? Feedback is appreciated - though only after you've read what my criteria are based on, which is listed there at the top of the page in the link.

[anarci]

I think ability should be a big part of your rankings, in mine they are a big part, but then again that is probably why i get so much flack for rating certain guys real high. That is why i have SRL so much higher than most do and also Sanchez,Ricardo Lopez and many others too. However there is a time to draw the line thats why Jones can only go so high in my ratings.
Its really a difficult thing to do,no matter how you rank your guys your always gonna have even the most knowledgable fans thinking your list is off.
I just find it hard to rate certain fighters with higher resumes but not that great in the overall skills department,above Super skilled fighters with good but not great resumes.

[sweet_scientist]

He was consistent when he got the title, but overrall he was pretty inconsistent.

What happened in the Park rematches?

Also while were on the subject Mante. Ive watched soem Betulio Gonzalez (Canto 2 and 3; Oguma 2) and he gets shut out or nearenough in all of them, how did he beat so many greats and even beat Canto and Oguma?

I'm a big fan of Gonzalez. Whilst I'm quite sceptical of his win over Canto (you have to kill someone to get a split dec in Venezuela against a Venezuelan) he did fair ok in some fights against elite comp. He was actually quite a decent boxer early on in his career, but became more plodding and relied on his strength more when he lost the speed and spring of youth.

This is how I've scored some of his fights:

Betulio Gonzalez vs. Masao Ohba: 145-144 Gonzalez
Ohba: 2,5,6,7 and 13.
Gonzalez: 3,4,9,10,12 and 15.
Rounds 1,8,11 and 14 even.

Guty Espadas vs. Betulio Gonzalez: 143-142 Espadas
Gonzalez: 7,8,9,11,12,13 and 14.
Espadas: 1,2,3,4,5,6,10 and 15.

Luis Ibarra vs. Betulio Gonzalez: 144-143 Ibarra
Gonzalez: 2,4,8,12,13 and 14.
Ibarra: 1,3,7,,9,10,11 and 15.
Rounds 5 and 6 even.

Miguel Canto vs. Betulio Gonzalez II: 147-140 Canto
Gonzalez: 9,10 and 12. I
Canto: 1,2,3,4,5,7,8,11,13 and 15.
Rounds 6 and 14 even.

Miguel Canto vs. Betulio Gonzalez III: 146-142 Canto
Gonzalez: 3,6,9 and 11.
Canto: 1,4,5,10,12,13,14 and 15.
Rounds 2,7 and 8 even.

Shoji Oguma vs. Betulio Gonzalez II: 144-143 Gonzalez
Oguma: 3,4,5,9,11 and 15.
Gonzalez: 1,7,8,10,12,13 and 14.
Rounds 2 and 6 even

Shoji Oguma vs. Betulio Gonzalez III: 146-141 Oguma
Gonzalez: 5,8,11 and 15.
Oguma: 1,2,3,4,6,7,9,10,13 and 14.
Round 12 even.

[My2Sense]

True,but higher than Sanchez?

Why not? He's more proven and accomplished than Sanchez.

[sweet_scientist]

I think ability should be a big part of your rankings, in mine they are a big part, but then again that is probably why i get so much flack for rating certain guys real high. That is why i have SRL so much higher than most do and also Sanchez,Ricardo Lopez and many others too. However there is a time to draw the line thats why Jones can only go so high in my ratings.
Its really a difficult thing to do,no matter how you rank your guys your always gonna have even the most knowledgable fans thinking your list is off.
I just find it hard to rate certain fighters with higher resumes but not that great in the overall skills department,above Super skilled fighters with good but not great resumes.

At the end of the day I don't have a problem with someone ranking someone based on their ability, I just think it's inconsistent to do so across the board when you are ranking them next to fighters that we can't see.

I'm all for and will probably make a list myself ranking fighters where I take ability into consideration, but I'll simply leave the likes of Greb out of it.

[GPater11093]

I'm a big fan of Gonzalez. Whilst I'm quite sceptical of his win over Canto (you have to kill someone to get a split dec in Venezuela against a Venezuelan) he did fair ok in some fights against elite comp. He was actually quite a decent boxer early on in his career, but became more plodding and relied on his strength more when he lost the speed and spring of youth.

This is how I've scored some of his fights:

Betulio Gonzalez vs. Masao Ohba: 145-144 Gonzalez
Ohba: 2,5,6,7 and 13.
Gonzalez: 3,4,9,10,12 and 15.
Rounds 1,8,11 and 14 even.

Guty Espadas vs. Betulio Gonzalez: 143-142 Espadas
Gonzalez: 7,8,9,11,12,13 and 14.
Espadas: 1,2,3,4,5,6,10 and 15.

Luis Ibarra vs. Betulio Gonzalez: 144-143 Ibarra
Gonzalez: 2,4,8,12,13 and 14.
Ibarra: 1,3,7,,9,10,11 and 15.
Rounds 5 and 6 even.

Miguel Canto vs. Betulio Gonzalez II: 147-140 Canto
Gonzalez: 9,10 and 12. I
Canto: 1,2,3,4,5,7,8,11,13 and 15.
Rounds 6 and 14 even.

Miguel Canto vs. Betulio Gonzalez III: 146-142 Canto
Gonzalez: 3,6,9 and 11.
Canto: 1,4,5,10,12,13,14 and 15.
Rounds 2,7 and 8 even.

Shoji Oguma vs. Betulio Gonzalez II: 144-143 Gonzalez
Oguma: 3,4,5,9,11 and 15.
Gonzalez: 1,7,8,10,12,13 and 14.
Rounds 2 and 6 even

Shoji Oguma vs. Betulio Gonzalez III: 146-141 Oguma
Gonzalez: 5,8,11 and 15.
Oguma: 1,2,3,4,6,7,9,10,13 and 14.
Round 12 even.

Thanks for that i had the 2nd Oguma fight a shut out for Oguma (he won a UD didnt he?) I agree with the rest ie Canto 2 and 3 but i see i need to see more Gonzalez

[sweet_scientist]

Thanks for that i had the 2nd Oguma fight a shut out for Oguma (he won a UD didnt he?) I agree with the rest ie Canto 2 and 3 but i see i need to see more Gonzalez

The second fight ended a split decision for Oguma and the third fight was ruled a draw.

I have a suspicion that you are referring to the third Oguma-Gonzalez fight where you say you had it a shutout for Oguma.

I thought that was a clear Oguma win too, and I cannot understand how it was called a draw, other than by the obvious method (corruption).

The second Gonzalez-Oguma fight on the other hand was a very close fight, and I highly, highly doubt you had THAT fight a shutout for Oguma.

In any case, for me, Gonzalez won the series with Oguma 3-1, though it could arguably be seen as 2-2.

[GPater11093]

The second fight ended a split decision for Oguma and the third fight was ruled a draw.

I have a suspicion that you are referring to the third Oguma-Gonzalez fight where you say you had it a shutout for Oguma.

I thought that was a clear Oguma win too, and I cannot understand how it was called a draw, other than by the obvious method (corruption).

The second Gonzalez-Oguma fight on the other hand was a very close fight, and I highly, highly doubt you had THAT fight a shutout for Oguma.

In any case, for me, Gonzalez won the series with Oguma 3-1, though it could arguably be seen as 2-2.

Ill check it out it must be the 3rd fight

[TommyV]

True,but higher than Sanchez?

Not be much, but possibly yes. If I had a true P4P top 50 I'm sure they'd only be 4 or 5 places between them at most. Sanchez is ranked somewhat as an enigma, unfortunately for him he never got to display his vast talent in regards to longetivity.

[PowerPuncher]

I think Hearns has the best wins with, great 1s like Leonard 2, Duran, Benitez, Hill, Cuevas and good 1s like Shields, Espada, Andrade, DeWitt. Plus his performances and ability are sensational if only he had a great chin he'd be near unbeatable

[Sweet Pea]

I love Canto but i feel he was the best of his era he was very inconsistant and picked up afew bizarre losses like a complete shut out to Park then a draw and a UD. But it was a very weird era in all.
Inconsistent would be about the last word I'd use to describe Canto.

[Sweet Pea]

True,but higher than Sanchez?I don't even think the case can be made for Sanchez, to be honest. Not only was Ortiz far more accomplished, but I think he was out and out the better fighter. Not by a large margin, as Sanchez was obviously a great fighter in his own right, but Ortiz is one of the quintessential boxer-punchers in the history of the sport for my money. He could do it all.

[China_hand_Joe]

1. Thomas Hearns
2. Salvador Sanchez

I refuse to rank the rest, not worthy of being along side the two greats.

Except Canto, Canto is dead last.

And Kid Chocolate is last but one.

[rayrobinson]

i like hearns in that group , and i know that its not the popular choice , but Chocolate had the longest running knockout ration i think , in pretty good company .