Who In Your Opinion Is The Most Overrated ATG?

[Frazier Hook]

What ATG fighter do you feel gets overrated? Wheter it be by fans, historians, etc......

Give reason also.......

[Flea Man]

Jack Dempsey.

Reason: Whilst obviously tough and hit hard, on film he looks decent, not spectacular. When you consider both Willard and he suffered from not defending too often or against the top opposition (for Dempsey, Wills was the fight to make) and losing his definitive fights against Tunney.

For me, I started to lose the fascination with him when I saw the Firpo fight. Firpo was terrible, and still he managed to land on and knock over Dempsey. Firpo was truly dreadful.

Maybe I'm being totally sacriligious here but whilst a fan of Dempsey and whilst it's clear to see he had a whack and had some good wins, I don't feel he belongs in a top ten Heavyweight list.

Sorry if I've offended anyone :lol: :good

[trampie]

Jack Dempsey.

Reason: Whilst obviously tough and hit hard, on film he looks decent, not spectacular. When you consider both Willard and he suffered from not defending too often or against the top opposition (for Dempsey, Wills was the fight to make) and losing his definitive fights against Tunney.

For me, I started to lose the fascination with him when I saw the Firpo fight. Firpo was terrible, and still he managed to land on and knock over Dempsey. Firpo was truly dreadful.

Maybe I'm being totally sacriligious here but whilst a fan of Dempsey and whilst it's clear to see he had a whack and had some good wins, I don't feel he belongs in a top ten Heavyweight list.

Sorry if I've offended anyone :lol: :good

Lets see your top 100 fleaman, assuming you have got one ?

[Bill Butcher]

What ATG fighter do you feel gets overrated? Wheter it be by fans, historians, etc......

Give reason also.......

Lennox Lewis.

Ive seen him in the top 3 HWs a few times & actually at no1 once or twice.... that shit alone is all the explanation I need.

(I have him at no 9)

[turpinr]

Jack Dempsey.

Reason: Whilst obviously tough and hit hard, on film he looks decent, not spectacular. When you consider both Willard and he suffered from not defending too often or against the top opposition (for Dempsey, Wills was the fight to make) and losing his definitive fights against Tunney.

For me, I started to lose the fascination with him when I saw the Firpo fight. Firpo was terrible, and still he managed to land on and knock over Dempsey. Firpo was truly dreadful.

Maybe I'm being totally sacriligious here but whilst a fan of Dempsey and whilst it's clear to see he had a whack and had some good wins, I don't feel he belongs in a top ten Heavyweight list.

Sorry if I've offended anyone :lol: :good:goodi agree.i thought his fight with willard was awful.joe louis would have put dempsey to sleep,quickly.

[Flea Man]

Well, working on one all the time I usually deal with 'brackets'. I.e I'd have an idea of where certain fighters would end up in my list but have yet to actually decide who is where. Had a list before that was totally awful, but that was because I only used to do 'post-war' lists as I didn't know enough of fighters pre-Louis.

Now I do, of course my lists are packed. Hopkins goes from the top 20 to the 40's, Gavilan and Ike Williams move back a bit to the 20's, Duran gets pushed out of the top five by Harry Greb and Ezzard Charles is now a lock for my top 5.

I was helping a very knowledgable poster out with his top 100 recently and struggled to keep up. He has top knowledge of the intricicies of fighters resumes. I have decent knowledge of most fighters, top knowledge of others.

In short, I don't think I'd do a top 100 any justice at the moment.

[Flea Man]

:goodi agree.i thought his fight with willard was awful.joe louis would have put dempsey to sleep,quickly.

Yeah, I have Louis at no.2 in my Heavyweight list, and I'd say anywhere between 11-20 is fair for him on a top 100.

I feel he'd splatter Dempsey after a short, spirited battle.

[Flea Man]

Lennox Lewis.

Ive seen him in the top 3 HWs a few times & actually at no1 once or twice.... that shit alone is all the explanation I need.

(I have him at no 9)

What's your top ten Heavys Bill:good

[trampie]

Well, working on one all the time I usually deal with 'brackets'. I.e I'd have an idea of where certain fighters would end up in my list but have yet to actually decide who is where. Had a list before that was totally awful, but that was because I only used to do 'post-war' lists as I didn't know enough of fighters pre-Louis.

Now I do, of course my lists are packed. Hopkins goes from the top 20 to the 40's, Gavilan and Ike Williams move back a bit to the 20's, Duran gets pushed out of the top five by Harry Greb and Ezzard Charles is now a lock for my top 5.

I was helping a very knowledgable poster out with his top 100 recently and struggled to keep up. He has top knowledge of the intricicies of fighters resumes. I have decent knowledge of most fighters, top knowledge of others.

In short, I don't think I'd do a top 100 any justice at the moment.

Ha Ha, what a donkey, prepared to critcise and pass comment, yet you admit that you are incapable of a top 100 list.:lol::lol::lol:

[Flea Man]

Ha Ha, what a donkey, prepared to critcise and pass comment, yet you admit that you are incapable of a top 100 list.:lol::lol::lol:

Yeah, but would still make a far better stab at you than you would. I know which fighters deserve to be up there, and more to the point, unlike you, I'd be able to make a case either way for a fighter and get down to the nitty gritty on individual placements.

Can I be fucked, on your account? No. But Manassa's Top 100, which he appears to be working on in a secret Laborotory somewhere, looks to be the bees knees and I've had some input into that.

It's more a case of not being arsed to put the effort in.

And the Donkey is the man who has Calzaghe as high as you do and thinks Benny Lynch is explicitly not deserving of a top 100 place.

[TommyV]

Ha Ha, what a donkey, prepared to critcise and pass comment, yet you admit that you are incapable of a top 100 list.:lol::lol::lol:

I don't have one either. I'm not stupid enough to attempt a top 100 because it would probably be a mess after 30 or 40. A top 400 was ridiculous and because of that you're list in general was terrible.

[Frazier Hook]

Any others?:think

[anarci]

Lennox Lewis Hes borderline top10 to have him top 3 is stupid and shows the ignorance on some peoples knowledge of boxing history

Tito Trinidad is a little overrated, he was great,but not as high as many put him

I think Max Schmeling is a little overrated
Jim Jeffries Many of his wins were against undersized guys who were past it and he barely won some of those
Max Baer too he could punch but definitly lacking in skills.

A few others too but ill get back to them later.

[Frazier Hook]

Lennox Lewis Hes borderline top10 to have him top 3 is stupid and shows the ignorance on some peoples knowledge of boxing history

Tito Trinidad is a little overrated, he was great,but not as high as many put him

I think Max Schmeling is a little overrated
Jim Jeffries Many of his wins were against undersized guys who were past it and he barely won some of those
Max Baer too he could punch but definitly lacking in skills.

A few others too but ill get back to them later.

To be honest I feel Trinidad is a little underrated now a days. People often dont give hime the credit he fully deserves and remember off his current rather than his peak years....

[natonic]

Lennox Lewis.

Ive seen him in the top 3 HWs a few times & actually at no1 once or twice.... that shit alone is all the explanation I need.

(I have him at no 9)

I agree with this. I think Lewis was a great fighter but those 2 KO losses to far from ATG type fighters eliminates him from such a high ranking. It's almost as if people who rate him that high disregard those 2 losses.


Here's one that will open me up for some criticism. I see this guy very high on lists and from what I've seen, I just don't see him that high: EDER JOFRE. Here's the thing, I've only seen the Harada fights and some of Medal. But it seemed to me like he wanted to mix it up too much. Against Harada it seemed like he'd lean in and initiate when boxing from the outside would've served him better. I'm open to being schooled a little on this subject. Top 40 ATG? Absolutely. Top 3o? Maybe. But I see him in a lot of top 20's and I haven't seen the footage yet that convinces me of that position.

[Frazier Hook]

I agree with this. I think Lewis was a great fighter but those 2 KO losses to far from ATG type fighters eliminates him from such a high ranking. It's almost as if people who rate him that high disregard those 2 losses.


Here's one that will open me up for some criticism. I see this guy very high on lists and from what I've seen, I just don't see him that high: EDER JOFRE. Here's the thing, I've only seen the Harada fights and some of Medal. But it seemed to me like he wanted to mix it up too much. Against Harada it seemed like he'd lean in and initiate when boxing from the outside would've served him better. I'm open to being schooled a little on this subject. Top 40 ATG? Absolutely. Top 3o? Maybe. But I see him in a lot of top 20's and I haven't seen the footage yet that convinces me of that position.

Pretty interesting one about Jofre. He was a true ATG and in his prime was dazzaling, but I wound't be to concerned if people don't rate him in there top 20 to be honest.

[anarci]

To be honest I feel Trinidad is a little underrated now a days. People often dont give hime the credit he fully deserves and remember off his current rather than his peak years.... You got a point he did make a lot of title defenses,and i thought he was pretty awesome at JM. I guess hes underrated by some and Overrated by others. I guess im just thinking about the ones who overrate him as they go a little to far sometimes but i guess thats expected when you think of how popular he is to so many.

[anarci]

I think Kostya Tszyu is overrated

[Hookie]

Jeff Fenech comes to mind.

Fenech had some good wins but no great wins IMO. His best fight was D12 Azumah Nelson in 1991. A case can be made that he won the fight.

Nelson was much better in the rematch (like he usually was) and stopped Fenech in 8 rounds... in Australia. It was considered an upset but that just goes to show you how much Fenech was overrated. Nelson was underrated.

Fenech beat the likes of-

Jerome Coffee W15
Daniel Zaragoza W10
Steve McCrory KO14
Greg Richardson KO5
Carlos Zarate WTD4

Marco Villasano W12 (Villasano had already lost to Nelson twice)

Mario Martinez W12 (Martinez dropped Fenech in the 6th, he had also already lost to Nelson twice... once by KO)

All good names but far from great with the exception being Zarate. Zarate was already 36 years old and had 68 fights. Zarate fought just once more (LKOby10 Zaragoza).

He fought mostly in Australia where everything was done his way. The only big fight on his resume that wasn't in Australia was the draw with Nelson. His only other fight outside of Australia was vs. Tialano Tovar KO8 who had a record of 10-10-1 fighter.

Sure, he won titles at 118, 122, and 126. Maybe he should have even won one at 130 but 130 would have been the only one worth mentioning IMO. Beating guys like Shingaki, Payakaroon, and Callejas is nothing compared to a win over Azumah Nelson.

He did fight for a title at 135 but was stopped in 2 by Phillip Holiday. He was also stopped in 7 by Calvin Grove (Grove had already lost Nelson).

Yep, in 2008 he beat a 50 year old Azumah Nelson by Majority Decision in AUSTRALIA! The fight means nothing, I'm pretty sure we all agree.

[Frazier Hook]

You got a point he did make a lot of title defenses,and i thought he was pretty awesome at JM. I guess hes underrated by some and Overrated by others. I guess im just thinking about the ones who overrate him as they go a little to far sometimes but i guess thats expected when you think of how popular he is to so many.

Yeah Trinidad at his peak was a amazing. So exciting, strong resume, and devastating puncher. Great fighter and in my opinion a ATG......:good

[TommyV]

Jofre is similar in ranking terms to Finito Lopez in a way. Both of the little men are fighters of great ability, but had slim pickings to make an ATG resumé out of.

[Mantequilla]

Masao Ohba in japan.Seems a lot of japanese fans have thought he could have gone up in weight as far as feather, like Harada and remained great.I saw too many holes in his armour at Flyweight for that.


Azumah Nelson, a great fighter with excellent longevity, but i tend to think a bit less of him than a lot of other good posters on here.

[Frazier Hook]

Jeff Fenech comes to mind.

Fenech had some good wins but no great wins IMO. His best fight was D12 Azumah Nelson in 1991. A case can be made that he won the fight.

Nelson was much better in the rematch (like he usually was) and stopped Fenech in 7 rounds... in Australia. It was considered an upset but that just goes to show you how much Fenech was overrated. Nelson was underrated.

Fenech beat the likes of-

Jerome Coffee W15
Daniel Zaragoza W10
Steve McCrory KO14
Greg Richardson KO5
Carlos Zarate WTD4

Marco Villasano W12 (Villasano had already lost to Nelson twice)

Mario Martinez W12 (Martinez dropped Fenech in the 6th, he had also already lost to Nelson twice... once by KO)

All good names but far from great with the exception being Zarate. Zarate was already 36 years old and had 68 fights. Zarate fought just once more (LKOby10 Zaragoza).

He fought mostly in Australia where everything was done his way. The only big fight on his resume that wasn't in Australia was the draw with Nelson. His only other fight outside of Australia was vs. Tialano Tovar KO8 who had a record of 10-10-1 fighter.

Sure, he won titles at 118, 122, and 126. Maybe he should have even won one at 130 but 130 would have been the only one worth mentioning IMO. Beating guys like Shingaki, Payakaroon, and Callejas is nothing compared to a win over Azumah Nelson.

He did fight for a title at 135 but was stopped in 2 by Phillip Holiday. He was also stopped in 7 by Calvin Grove (Grove had already lost Nelson).

Yep, in 2008 he beat a 50 year old Azumah Nelson by Majority Decision in AUSTRALIA! The fight means nothing, I'm pretty sure we all agree.

Interesting Post. To be honest I don't think Fenech is a top 100 fighter. But at his peak he was a very good fighter. And held some pretty good wins and deserved the Neslon win the 1st time.

The Nelson win in 1991 would of added alot to his legacy. But he was still a very good fighter at his peak aswell a 3 weight division champ!

[Frazier Hook]

Masao Ohba in japan.Seems a lot of japanese fans have thought he could have gone up in weight as far as feather, like Harada and remained great.I saw too many holes in his armour at Flyweight for that.


Azumah Nelson, a great fighter with excellent longevity, but i tend to think a bit less of him than a lot of other good posters on here.

Reasons?

[anarci]

I disagree i think Fenech was underrated really. Some of those wins you downplayed. Callejas was very good as was Villasana(who he dominated) Richardson was a very good boxer in fact all those guys were.
You said a case can be made that he beat Azumah? Did you see that fight? He was clearly robbed. Martinez could bang and was a good fighter no shame in getting dropped there. Payakurun was good and he made him go to monastery and turn Monk.
Zarragoza is Hof that was a very good win.

Zarate was washed up though ill give you that
By the time he fought Holiday and Grove he was washed up he would have kicked the crap out of both those guys in his prime

[Mantequilla]

Jofre is similar in ranking terms to Finito Lopez in a way. Both of the little men are fighters of great ability, but had slim pickings to make an ATG resumé out of.


True as a broad criticism, especially given the high placing by many of Jofre.

as a straight up comparison Jofre fought a clearly superior level of comp imo.

[TommyV]

True as a broad criticism, especially given the high placing by many of Jofre.

as a straight up comparison Jofre fought a clearly superior level of comp imo.

I agree, and his resumé certainly isn't bad at all with the likes of José Medel on there, but like Lopez I don't feel it's a much to his quality as a fighter.

[TommyV]

I believe Jack Johnson to be over-rated by many on here due to historical context.

[turpinr]

I believe Jack Johnson to be over-rated by many on here due to historical context.i could name quite a few of them too.
james j caveman for one

[Hookie]

Well, working on one all the time I usually deal with 'brackets'. I.e I'd have an idea of where certain fighters would end up in my list but have yet to actually decide who is where. Had a list before that was totally awful, but that was because I only used to do 'post-war' lists as I didn't know enough of fighters pre-Louis.

Now I do, of course my lists are packed. Hopkins goes from the top 20 to the 40's, Gavilan and Ike Williams move back a bit to the 20's, Duran gets pushed out of the top five by Harry Greb and Ezzard Charles is now a lock for my top 5.

I was helping a very knowledgable poster out with his top 100 recently and struggled to keep up. He has top knowledge of the intricicies of fighters resumes. I have decent knowledge of most fighters, top knowledge of others.

In short, I don't think I'd do a top 100 any justice at the moment.


Exact lists suck. Doesn't matter if it's sports, music, movies, whatever... it's all biased. Some guys can't be denied but after about 10 or 15 you just start throwing names in there and it becomes a mess.

I've been following boxing closely my whole life (I'm 35), I love the sport and always will. I like talking about great fighters but numbering them 1, 2, 3, 137, 243, 364, etc. is just lame IMO. Too many opinions, everyone is biased even if they don't want to admit it.

How can you really say fighter A was better than fighter B when they both beat great fighters, never fought each other, or even common opponents, etc.

I watch a show about the 100 best Hard Rock songs ever recently. Welcome To The Jungle was #1! I think that song sucks. The list contained no Suicidal Tendencies, no Rollins Band, and only 1 song by Danzig (Mother, which IMO is far from the best Danzig song). See how opinions vary?

Opinions are like assholes... they all stink sometimes! lol

Anyway, let's get back to discussing boxing...

[Mantequilla]

Reasons?

Often sloppy, jack of all trades style, too many flat toney-esque performances and for a guy who was a supposed physical beast, the Fenech fight was an embarassment, though i do think both of them were slightly past it for both of their fights.

This is all relative mind you.I do rate him as a great fighter and at his best he was highly dangerous.I felt it more interesting to mention fighters liek him and Ohba that i do think highly of overall, than say Erik Morales who i don't think was ever great and can't be bothered to debate it at length.


I also think Nelson is overrated in the pantheon of African greats.I'm against the line of thinking that it's Tiger and Nelson then the rest.

[bodhi]

Joe Calzaghe by trampie.

Roy Jones Jr. and Mike Tyson by their fanboys.

[Hookie]

I disagree i think Fenech was underrated really. Some of those wins you downplayed. Callejas was very good as was Villasana(who he dominated) Richardson was a very good boxer in fact all those guys were.
You said a case can be made that he beat Azumah? Did you see that fight? He was clearly robbed. Martinez could bang and was a good fighter no shame in getting dropped there. Payakurun was good and he made him go to monastery and turn Monk.
Zarragoza is Hof that was a very good win.

Zarate was washed up though ill give you that
By the time he fought Holiday and Grove he was washed up he would have kicked the crap out of both those guys in his prime

No doubt Fenech was past prime when he lost to Grove and he was washed up when he lost to Holiday. I didn't mean to make it seem like these men were better than him because they were not. The Grove win over Fenech was prety impressive for Grove though. Grove needed a win like that at that point in his career.

Yes, Fenech deserved the nod over Nelson in their first fight. I don't think it was a total domination like some think though. I think Nelson was amazing in the rematch and really beat the crap out of Fenech when they fought again just 8 months later (KO8).

Fenech seemingly had all the advantages and everything to gain in the rematch. He was the favorite, he was fighting in Australia, everybody was on his side.

[asero]

jofre and wilde

[Frazier Hook]

Often sloppy, jack of all trades style, too many flat toney-esque performances and for a guy who was a supposed physical beast, the Fenech fight was an embarassment, though i do think both of them were slightly past it for both of their fights.

This is all relative mind you.I do rate him as a great fighter and at his best he was highly dangerous.I felt it more interesting to mention fighters liek him and Ohba that i do think highly of overall, than say Erik Morales who i don't think was ever great and can't be bothered to debate it at length.


I also think Nelson is overrated in the pantheon of African greats.I'm against the line of thinking that it's Tiger and Nelson then the rest.

But do you agree that Tiger is the best African fighter of all time? What other great Africans do you put on par with Nelson?

[Frazier Hook]

jofre and wilde

Reasons? Mainly for Wilde?

[Mantequilla]

Some other fighters i really rate, yet also think praise has become a bit overstated in recent years are Mike Spinks and McCallum.

Rodrigo Valdez on here maybe, but he's not overrated in general.I think a few are just a bit too keen to declare him de facto dominator of the middleweights if there had been no Monzon.Too much speculation there for me.

[Flea Man]

Asero, for once you've made a valid point :good

Wilde is someone I believe to get overrated.

For one, I don't feel his competition is up to much. People have pointed out certain decent wins on there but he doesn't have a win that really has the 'Wow' factor.

His consistency is obviously very good, and the fact he stopped so many opponents seems a testament to his power. One thing that I give him leniency for (and why I still rank him fairly high) is that information and complete records ofa lot of his opponents may very well be lost, which is why a lot of his opponents seem terrible.

I'm also not that impressed by the footage of him that is available, but I'm willing to put that down to bad nights/quality.

I think Benny Lynch would beat him.

However, Wilde did beat bigger men and didn't lose much. I just don't buy into the myth as much as others do.

as always, if there is someone who has a detailed analysis into why I'm wrong, pass the info on :good

[Flea Man]

Some other fighters i really rate, yet also think praise has become a bit overstated in recent years are Mike Spinks and McCallum.

Rodrigo Valdez on here maybe, but he's not overrated in general.I think a few are just a bit too keen to declare him de facto dominator of the middleweights if there had been no Monzon.Too much speculation there for me.

I guess with Spinks you mean he just missed out on being there in the midst of arguably the best Light Heavyweight division ever but cleaned house nonetheless. Then of course the two not clear-cut victories over Holmes (good indications of Spinks talents nonetheless IMO) and uninspiring reign culminating in the sparking he got at the hands of Tyson (I don't really begrudge him that to be honest)

I guess you feel I should begrudge him that a bit. Am I right? Which is fair enough. But I'd be happy ranking him anywhere between 40-50.

[Frazier Hook]

Some other fighters i really rate, yet also think praise has become a bit overstated in recent years are Mike Spinks and McCallum.

Rodrigo Valdez on here maybe, but he's not overrated in general.I think a few are just a bit too keen to declare him de facto dominator of the middleweights if there had been no Monzon.Too much speculation there for me.

I probaly agree with McCallum. People do overrate him to a extent and claim how Hagler, Duran etc avoided him and how he would of beaten them if given the chance etc.

But I dont see Spinks being overrated. If anything I find he deserves more credit his accomplishments and resume of wins is great. What a fighter the Spinks Jinx was.......

[Mantequilla]

It's just the general "dominated one of the strongest light heavy era's ever "feel i find a bit over the top and not entirely accurate.he did enough good work there without needing to take it that far.

And the Holmes rematch tends to make me feel losing the first fight is more of a knock on Holmes rather than an awesome triumph for SPinks.Michael was an average at best heavyweight imo.Maybe i'm being a bit harsh here, but i don't feel even a past it Holmes should have lost to him.

No doubt he was a great fighter though.I'd never suggest otherwise.

[BENNY BLANCO]

To be honest I feel Trinidad is a little underrated now a days. People often dont give hime the credit he fully deserves and remember off his current rather than his peak years....

You got a point he did make a lot of title defenses,and i thought he was pretty awesome at JM. I guess hes underrated by some and Overrated by others. I guess im just thinking about the ones who overrate him as they go a little to far sometimes but i guess thats expected when you think of how popular he is to so many. Exactly, if anything Trinidad has become underrated over the past couple of years.


I think Kostya Tszyu is overrated

I'm not so sure if Tszyu is an ATG but he is overrated in my opinion, and me and you spoke about this before too. I felt he could have lost to Oktay Urkal and I thought he lost to Hector Lopez, even though the Lopez fight was early in his career. And his lost to Vince Phillips doesn't help his cause either. But one thing I will say is that he was matched tough early in his career and was a fantastic fighter.

[trampie]

Yeah, but would still make a far better stab at you than you would. I know which fighters deserve to be up there, and more to the point, unlike you, I'd be able to make a case either way for a fighter and get down to the nitty gritty on individual placements.

Can I be fucked, on your account? No. But Manassa's Top 100, which he appears to be working on in a secret Laborotory somewhere, looks to be the bees knees and I've had some input into that.

It's more a case of not being arsed to put the effort in.

And the Donkey is the man who has Calzaghe as high as you do and thinks Benny Lynch is explicitly not deserving of a top 100 place.

I wonder how it would compare to my top 100 then ?
As my top 100 compared well with lists by sweet_scientist and McGrain on here at the time {they both may have new lists by now ?} and also with the boxing historians website, lists.

[Frazier Hook]

What about Aaron Pyor being overrated? Although at his peak was great his peak didnt last very long. His wins over Arguello are impressive, but Arguello was on his fourth weight divsion and past his very best.

Lets not forget about the black bottle which tarnished the first win. In the rematch Arguello was a shot force. His win over Cervantes is pretty impressive, but other than that his resume is great.

And he made quite a legacy by saying Hearns and mainly Leonard avoided him when they really didn't.

[redrooster]

Ray Leonard, master of the senior's tour is overrated. His fans dont think so because they're afraid what would happen if he took those fights with the next line of superstars

Oh sure, they're bold speculators after the opportunity has passed by

But I wouldve like to seen more and then some more after that. A win over Micheal Nunn in a title defesne would change my mind but quick and wins over Julian Jackson and Terry Norris would have been the clincher

[redrooster]

What about Aaron Pyor being overrated? Although at his peak was great his peak didnt last very long. His wins over Arguello are impressive, but Arguello was on his fourth weight divsion and past his very best.

Lets not forget about the black bottle which tarnished the first win. In the rematch Arguello was a shot force. His win over Cervantes is pretty impressive, but other than that his resume is great.

And he made quite a legacy by saying Hearns and mainly Leonard avoided him when they really didn't.

I dont know about Hearns but Leonard did. I saw it at the Leonard-Hearns 1 post fight conference.

[Frazier Hook]

I dont know about Hearns but Leonard did. I saw it at the Leonard-Hearns 1 post fight conference.

No he didnt. Pyor actually rejected a offer of $5000 to fight Leonard and admitted in a postfight interview. When Pryor got his biggest win against Arguello, Leonard was retired.

When Leonard was active at 147lb the fight everyone wanted to see was Hearns and Leonard....

HBO Legendary nights created the myth

[Frazier Hook]

Ray Leonard, master of the senior's tour is overrated. His fans dont think so because they're afraid what would happen if he took those fights with the next line of superstars

Oh sure, they're bold speculators after the opportunity has passed by

But I wouldve like to seen more and then some more after that. A win over Micheal Nunn in a title defesne would change my mind but quick and wins over Julian Jackson and Terry Norris would have been the clincher

What a shocker! :lol:

[Kalasinn]

Joe Calzaghe by trampie.

Roy Jones Jr. and Mike Tyson by their fanboys.
Any ATG can be truly overrated by the blindness of fanboys.
But indeed, I feel people lacking knowledge often overrate Calzaghe on his undefeated status.

[TheExecutioner]

Mike Tyson easily,As good as he was when he was young he has never actually beat anyone that was good except spinks to prove he was an ATG.

[Flea Man]

It's just the general "dominated one of the strongest light heavy era's ever "feel i find a bit over the top and not entirely accurate.he did enough good work there without needing to take it that far.

And the Holmes rematch tends to make me feel losing the first fight is more of a knock on Holmes rather than an awesome triumph for SPinks.Michael was an average at best heavyweight imo.Maybe i'm being a bit harsh here, but i don't feel even a past it Holmes should have lost to him.

No doubt he was a great fighter though.I'd never suggest otherwise.

No I pretty much agree with everything you said. I just see enough in Spinks to suggest he was in the upper echelons of fighters. I personally feel the same about Holmes; he was clearly not shot and had a lot still left in him. He seemed to rectify this is the rematch was alas, it was given to Mike.

[Addie]

tch tends to make me feel losing the first fight is more of a knock on Holmes rather than an awesome triumph for SPinks.

That's how I feel about Leonard vs Duran I. :good

[Casamayor122]

Jofre is similar in ranking terms to Finito Lopez in a way. Both of the little men are fighters of great ability, but had slim pickings to make an ATG resumé out of.

How do you know if they never fought a great fighter?

Jofre fought exclusively in Brazil and there is very little video of him fighting. How do you know he had great fighting ability? The best win on his resume is against a shot Saldivar in Brazil.

Many of these old timers are vastly overrated and are held to different, lower standards than modern boxers.

[Flea Man]

That's how I feel about Leonard vs Duran I. :good

Unbelievable.

[Mantequilla]

That's how I feel about Leonard vs Duran I. :good


Fair enough, but Duran vs LEonard was much closer to a prime vs prime kind of fight with both men in good form at the weight in question, than Spinks vs Holmes was.Leonard looked really, really good in losing against Duran...Holmes not so much.

[TommyV]

How do you know if they never fought a great fighter?

Jofre fought exclusively in Brazil and there is very little video of him fighting. How do you know he had great fighting ability? The best win on his resume is against a shot Saldivar in Brazil.

Many of these old timers are vastly overrated and are held to different, lower standards than modern boxers.

I disagree. I think the best win on his resumé is probaby the two stoppage wins over José Medel, due to the respective periods in there careers of which he fought Medel and Saldivar.

How do I know? Because I've watched him. There's plenty of rounds from the Medel & Harada fights. Technically he was very good, watch round 7 of Harada II and the uppercut he finds on the inside from a ridiculous angle. Watch Medel I and the way he mixes up from head to body, left hooks, right hands over the top, then he'll go down with an inch-perfect left to the body, come upstairs with an uppercut.

He had a great body attack that would ware his opponent down, he was strong on the inside and could back his opponent up with physical strength, he was durable - again Medel I; watch the end of round 9 and the two flush left-hooks he takes ands he's still standing. He also had power in either hand, and great hand-speed. Fast, sharp, crisp, accurate punching that would take it's toll on his opponent.

And last of all, I am not getting into the old-timers v modern era discussion again. It's ridiculous and people don't seem to understand the whole point and relevance of it. Jofre's style wasn't exactly out-dated anyway. He had the same orthodox stance that we have today, and his punches were textbook. He'd clear out today's bantamweight scene no doubt.

[Seamus]

Jack Johnson by a landslide.

[mr. magoo]

What's your top ten Heavys Bill:good

Not sure if I agree with Bill's #9 rating of Lewis. But, I will say that the man doesn't need to list his top 10 to justify his claim that Lennox isn't #1.

[PowerPuncher]

Fitzsimmons - Ive been into this, but a 167lb man overcoming a 16lb weight disadvantage isnt that big a deal.

Henry Armstrong - because some rate him over Robinson, no chance, plus fighters from his own weight range who beat him Duran/Whitaker/Mayweather are rated below him on everyones list

Greb - because he gets rated over robinson on here, seems a great fighter but he cant be seen for 1 and no one ever looks at the primeness of his opposition, where I believe many of his opponents to be pre/past prime or the fact it was a somewhat primitive era

Barney Ross - because he wasnt as good as you all thing

Jim Jeffries - 6'2 super Heavyweight with zero skill who picked on middleweights and avoided Jack Johnson until he eventually grew some balls and got his ass kicked, enough said

Dempsey - terrible resume, resume wise doesn't deserve to be top10 on anyones list but some put him in the top3, perplexing

Monzon - because he wasnt that good and neither was his competition, which consisted of ATG Midgets and journeymen

Jofre

Most Pre 1940s fighters - they werent nearly as good as their 40s onwards counterparts

[TommyV]

Fitzsimmons - Ive been into this, but a 167lb man overcoming a 16lb weight disadvantage isnt that big a deal.

Henry Armstrong - because some rate him over Robinson, no chance, plus fighters from his own weight range who beat him Duran/Whitaker/Mayweather are rated below him on everyones list

Greb - because he gets rated over robinson on here, seems a great fighter but he cant be seen for 1 and no one ever looks at the primeness of his opposition, where I believe many of his opponents to be pre/past prime or the fact it was a somewhat primitive era

Barney Ross - because he wasnt as good as you all thing

Jim Jeffries - 6'2 super Heavyweight with zero skill who picked on middleweights and avoided Jack Johnson until he eventually grew some balls and got his ass kicked, enough said

Dempsey - terrible resume, resume wise doesn't deserve to be top10 on anyones list but some put him in the top3, perplexing

Monzon - because he wasnt that good and neither was his competition, which consisted of ATG Midgets and journeymen

Jofre

Most Pre 1940s fighters - they werent nearly as good as their 40s onwards counterparts

I agree with Dempsey. The other's are terrible choices. Especially Monzon, Greb, Armstrong and Ross.

[natonic]

Ray Leonard, master of the senior's tour is overrated. His fans dont think so because they're afraid what would happen if he took those fights with the next line of superstars

Oh sure, they're bold speculators after the opportunity has passed by

But I wouldve like to seen more and then some more after that. A win over Micheal Nunn in a title defesne would change my mind but quick and wins over Julian Jackson and Terry Norris would have been the clincher

A New Year is coming, why don't you give us an original thought for a change.

[McGrain]

Another one for Jack Dempsey.

[Flea Man]

I disagree. I think the best win on his resumé is probaby the two stoppage wins over José Medel, due to the respective periods in there careers of which he fought Medel and Saldivar.

How do I know? Because I've watched him. There's plenty of rounds from the Medel & Harada fights. Technically he was very good, watch round 7 of Harada II and the uppercut he finds on the inside from a ridiculous angle. Watch Medel I and the way he mixes up from head to body, left hooks, right hands over the top, then he'll go down with an inch-perfect left to the body, come upstairs with an uppercut.

He had a great body attack that would ware his opponent down, he was strong on the inside and could back his opponent up with physical strength, he was durable - again Medel I; watch the end of round 9 and the two flush left-hooks he takes ands he's still standing. He also had power in either hand, and great hand-speed. Fast, sharp, crisp, accurate punching that would take it's toll on his opponent.

And last of all, I am not getting into the old-timers v modern era discussion again. It's ridiculous and people don't seem to understand the whole point and relevance of it. Jofre's style wasn't exactly out-dated anyway. He had the same orthodox stance that we have today, and his punches were textbook. He'd clear out today's bantamweight scene no doubt.

Agree 100% Jofre would beat Olivares and Zarate IMO

[Flea Man]

Not sure if I agree with Bill's #9 rating of Lewis. But, I will say that the man doesn't need to list his top 10 to justify his claim that Lennox isn't #1.

Genuinely just showing an interest.

[Flea Man]

Another one for Jack Dempsey.

What d'ya mean, that you're surprised Dempsey has got votes or that you also think he's overrated? I know you're a big Wills admirer, so I'm guessing the latter.

[Frazier Hook]

Another one for Jack Dempsey.

Reasons?

[Frazier Hook]

A New Year is coming, why don't you give us an original thought for a change.

:lol::lol::lol:

[GPater11093]

Often sloppy, jack of all trades style, too many flat toney-esque performances and for a guy who was a supposed physical beast, the Fenech fight was an embarassment, though i do think both of them were slightly past it for both of their fights.

This is all relative mind you.I do rate him as a great fighter and at his best he was highly dangerous.I felt it more interesting to mention fighters liek him and Ohba that i do think highly of overall, than say Erik Morales who i don't think was ever great and can't be bothered to debate it at length.


I also think Nelson is overrated in the pantheon of African greats.I'm against the line of thinking that it's Tiger and Nelson then the rest.

How do you think the Africans stack up them, I'm guessing you rate Kalambey highly.

Agree 100% Jofre would beat Olivares and Zarate IMO

Really, I don't think i could surely say if Jofre could beat either of them, If anything i think Olivares footspeed would be too fast for Jofre.

:lol::lol::lol:

A New Year is coming does that mean a new account for you?

[McGrain]

Reasons?

Horrible title competition, didn't match the most dangerous of his era, some people have him in their top three.

Really, I don't think i could surely say if Jofre could beat either of them, If anything i think Olivares footspeed would be too fast for Jofre.



Jofre beats Zarate, Olivares beats Jofre, Zarate beats Olivares. Aye min?

[Flea Man]

Horrible title competition, didn't match the most dangerous of his era, some people have him in their top three.




Jofre beats Zarate, Olivares beats Jofre, Zarate beats Olivares. Aye min?

I think if Olivares doesn't fare well in exchanges with Zarate like so many others did (although I feel Zarate wasn't completely made of steel and I think Olivares could hurt him) he can full back on his boxing and mix up his approach.

I feel Olivares would outpoint Zarate.

Olivares vs Jofre I'm fine either way, but I just feel Jofre has the mettle to keep himself in there, both men like to mix their approaches up.

Don't know whether it's an interesting point or not but I don't feel Zarate's dimensions help him out so much here. He likes to lean in when he turns his punches over and I feel Olivares and Jofre will be able to use small head movements/blocks to set up their own short punches on Zarate.

Based on the fact that I saw Rodolfo Martinez briefly wobble Zarate:lol:From a southpaw stance:lol::lol:

[GPater11093]

Jofre beats Zarate, Olivares beats Jofre, Zarate beats Olivares. Aye min?

aye, I can see that but i can see them all beating each other at least once in a series of 3. But i think for winners of series you are correct.

[Flea Man]

aye, I can see that but i can see them all beating each other at least once in a series of 3. But i think for winners of series you are correct.

This is a fair enough way of putting it, I'll roll with you:good

[Flea Man]

Kaokor Galaxy beats them all :lol: :deal

[Gesta]

Jeff Fenech comes to mind.

Fenech had some good wins but no great wins IMO. His best fight was D12 Azumah Nelson in 1991. A case can be made that he won the fight.

Nelson was much better in the rematch (like he usually was) and stopped Fenech in 8 rounds... in Australia. It was considered an upset but that just goes to show you how much Fenech was overrated. Nelson was underrated.

Fenech beat the likes of-

Jerome Coffee W15
Daniel Zaragoza W10
Steve McCrory KO14
Greg Richardson KO5
Carlos Zarate WTD4

Marco Villasano W12 (Villasano had already lost to Nelson twice)

Mario Martinez W12 (Martinez dropped Fenech in the 6th, he had also already lost to Nelson twice... once by KO)

All good names but far from great with the exception being Zarate. Zarate was already 36 years old and had 68 fights. Zarate fought just once more (LKOby10 Zaragoza).

He fought mostly in Australia where everything was done his way. The only big fight on his resume that wasn't in Australia was the draw with Nelson. His only other fight outside of Australia was vs. Tialano Tovar KO8 who had a record of 10-10-1 fighter.

Sure, he won titles at 118, 122, and 126. Maybe he should have even won one at 130 but 130 would have been the only one worth mentioning IMO. Beating guys like Shingaki, Payakaroon, and Callejas is nothing compared to a win over Azumah Nelson.

He did fight for a title at 135 but was stopped in 2 by Phillip Holiday. He was also stopped in 7 by Calvin Grove (Grove had already lost Nelson).

Yep, in 2008 he beat a 50 year old Azumah Nelson by Majority Decision in AUSTRALIA! The fight means nothing, I'm pretty sure we all agree.


Was it Fenech that was about to become the first to be a four division champ?, his "loss" to Nelson derailed that?

[GPater11093]

Kaokor Galaxy beats them all :lol: :deal

fuck off you McLovin look-a-like

[Flea Man]

fuck off you McLovin look-a-like

:lol: I owned that guy to such a degree he took a hiatus:deal

[destruction]

Ali- I am sure has already been mentioned here.

The goat, by who?

His true losses were 10 in number if it had not been for Kings buying the judges in alot of his "fights". Dont need to go into details as its been covered enough here and I dont need to go over past ground with alot of American nut huggers and the rest brain washed observers.

He ended his career like a veggie unable to even be a normal human being, while his career was like a luck luck case of decisions he should not have got at times. No where near dominant in any of his eras and nowhere anything other than another HW champ manufactured by Don King who still owns the division and most of your brains.

[Flea Man]

Ali- I am sure has already been mentioned here.

The goat, by who?

His true losses were 10 in number if it had not been for Kings buying the judges in alot of his "fights". Dont need to go into details as its been covered enough here and I dont need to go over past ground with alot of American nut huggers and the rest brain washed observers.

He ended his career like a veggie unable to even be a normal human being, while his career was like a luck luck case of decisions he should not have got at times. No where near dominant in any of his eras and nowhere anything other than another HW champ manufactured by Don King who still owns the division and most of your brains.

Bullshit.

[Beeston Brawler]

Ali is overrated by a lot of people..... still fucking good though.

#1 HW.

[PowerPuncher]

I forgot Joe Louis - the number 1 HW of all time shouldnt get outboxed for 13rounds by a SMW. He shouldnt arguably be losing decisions to Godoy, Farr, Walcott and get the shit beat out of him by a past LHW in Schmelling. I sound like Mendoza

Louis is great just not the no1 HW of all time

[Flea Man]

I forgot Joe Louis - the number 1 HW of all time shouldnt get outboxed for 13rounds by a SMW. He shouldnt arguably be losing decisions to Godoy, Farr, Walcott and get the shit beat out of him by a past LHW in Schmelling. I sound like Mendoza

Louis is great just not the no1 HW of all time

He is the no.2 of all time. The man was a beast; footage backs this up.

The Schmeling loss was a bit dodgy but competitive, and he hadn't trained. To back this up, just look at the rematch.

There were some shitty opponents in his 'Bum of the Month' tour but he defended his titles regularly, and Billy Conn was a damn fine opponent. So what if he struggled? he pulled it out.

Your points on his later losses are redundant; he settled the score with Walcott (and from the footage I've seen of the first fight neither man really has the upper hand) and proved his immense toughness in the bout with Marciano.

And lets not forget he was years into his career, at all-time weight levels, out of shape and fighting to pay of massive tax bills.

At his best I'd say Louis beats Marciano and there are few I'd pick to destroy him (Kid Dynamite, Prime Foreman)

[destruction]

Bullshit.

how old are you and where are you from first up?

[Flea Man]

how old are you and where are you from first up?

I'm old enough. I just think you're being overtly critical there.

Foreman was about as destructive a force there has ever been, wiping out Frazier and Norton. Ali beat him.

Liston was an intimidating force with a fantastic jab, immense toughness and hit like a sledgehammer. A young, relatively untested Ali boxed his head off, and dominated all in front of them.

He slipped a bit after his hatus, but showed enough. The best Heavyweight of all time for me, and anywhere between 10-15 on a top 10 P4P list is just IMO.

[janitor]

I forgot Joe Louis - the number 1 HW of all time shouldnt get outboxed for 13rounds by a SMW. He shouldnt arguably be losing decisions to Godoy, Farr, Walcott and get the shit beat out of him by a past LHW in Schmelling. I sound like Mendoza

Louis is great just not the no1 HW of all time

He did not loose a decision to either Farr or Godoy.

They were close fights but clear cut.

[Addie]

Fair enough, but Duran vs LEonard was much closer to a prime vs prime kind of fight with both men in good form at the weight in question, than Spinks vs Holmes was.Leonard looked really, really good in losing against Duran...Holmes not so much.

I don't think Leonard looked "really, really good" in Montreal. Physically he was the best he could have been, and was certainly at his peak in my jugdment, but he wasn't allowed to look good because Duran was smothering him, landing shots for the better part of 15 rounds. I was actually just trying to make a point. If anything, we all under appreciate what Spinks achieved in moving up to the Heavyweight division and handing Larry Holmes his first defeat.

Michael Spinks was not a great Heavyweight, and like Holmes, was not at his peak at the time of their first fight. Therefore, arguing that Spinks beat a past it Holmes is void because they were both past their best, but at least Holmes was operating at his most effective weight. Michael didn't go out there and steal a decision, he went out and took it to the much bigger man and befuddled Holmes with his combination's and relentless, educated pressure. It was a fantastic performance, not one to be played down.

I can agree on the part about Spinks not "dominating" one of the best LHW era's of all time. Lopez was at the end of his feather, Johnson had already been in his wars with Saad, and there were no Conteh and Saad on his resume. That said, he did dominate a good LHW era, and I really don't see how we can downplay his achievement of moving up and beating Larry Holmes. It was marvelous.

[McGrain]

He did not loose a decision to either Farr or Godoy.

...or Walcott.

[Flea Man]

Let's not forget what Louis destroyed a lot of his opposition. And was also a consistent World champion, most number of defences (although some were dubious, and personally I believe the Galento kd was not much at all, when you fight often you may slip up) but for a Heavyweight to span a couple of generations and still mix it with the best (although Walcott, veteran Charles and Marciano isn't the best Heavyweight division I've ever seen to be perfectly honest, still good though, and all fighters had some damn fine attributes) warrants a high ranking.

Holmes and Foreman did this to a degree as well. Ali mixed in two good generations, the 2nd part of his career playing out in the greatest Heavyweight division ever seen.

I have Ali at 1, Louis at 2. Louis a lock for the top 20 all-time IMO, and I don't believe that's overrating him.

80-odd years on he probably still has the best punching form ever witnessed.

[janitor]

...or Walcott.

Walcott you can make the case.

With Farr and Godoy it would be a bit of a stretch.

[destruction]

I'm old enough. I just think you're being overtly critical there.

Foreman was about as destructive a force there has ever been, wiping out Frazier and Norton. Ali beat him.

Liston was an intimidating force with a fantastic jab, immense toughness and hit like a sledgehammer. A young, relatively untested Ali boxed his head off, and dominated all in front of them.

He slipped a bit after his hatus, but showed enough. The best Heavyweight of all time for me, and anywhere between 10-15 on a top 10 P4P list is just IMO.

liston was paid off to lose both fights to ali, he was not the brightest and took the cash on the table.

[Flea Man]

I don't think Leonard looked "really, really good" in Montreal. Physically he was the best he could have been, and was certainly at his peak in my jugdment, but he wasn't allowed to look good because Duran was smothering him, landing shots for the better part of 15 rounds. I was actually just trying to make a point. If anything, we all under appreciate what Spinks achieved in moving up to the Heavyweight division and handing Larry Holmes his first defeat.

Michael Spinks was not a great Heavyweight, and like Holmes, was not at his peak at the time of their first fight. Therefore, arguing that Spinks beat a past it Holmes is void because they were both past their best, but at least Holmes was operating at his most effective weight. Michael didn't go out there and steal a decision, he went out and took it to the much bigger man and befuddled Holmes with his combination's and relentless, educated pressure. It was a fantastic performance, not one to be played down.

I can agree on the part about Spinks not "dominating" one of the best LHW era's of all time. Lopez was at the end of his feather, Johnson had already been in his wars with Saad, and there were no Conteh and Saad on his resume. That said, he did dominate a good LHW era, and I really don't see how we can downplay his achievement of moving up and beating Larry Holmes. It was marvelous.

The Qawi win was good too:good

He's not at fault for missing Conteh and Saad, personally I think Miracle Matthew would struggle to pull one out of the bag against Spinks. Conteh; depends which version we're pitting against Spinks, I'd favour Spinks to come on strong late to be honest, though I'm not sure whether Conteh could be hurt at his peak because he was probably pissing his punch resistance up the wall from his peak to the end. I'd favour Spinks as I said.

[Flea Man]

liston was paid off to lose both fights to ali, he was not the brightest and took the cash on the table.

Probably why Liston tried to put shit in Ali's eyes; so he couldn't marvel at his inevitable victory.

Go on then, say it; Foreman was tired/drugged/ill in Zaire?

[anarci]

Ali- I am sure has already been mentioned here.

The goat, by who?

His true losses were 10 in number if it had not been for Kings buying the judges in alot of his "fights". Dont need to go into details as its been covered enough here and I dont need to go over past ground with alot of American nut huggers and the rest brain washed observers.

He ended his career like a veggie unable to even be a normal human being, while his career was like a luck luck case of decisions he should not have got at times. No where near dominant in any of his eras and nowhere anything other than another HW champ manufactured by Don King who still owns the division and most of your brains.:patsch You cant be serious:-(

[Addie]

The Qawi win was good too:good

He's not at fault for missing Conteh and Saad, personally I think Miracle Matthew would struggle to pull one out of the bag against Spinks. Conteh; depends which version we're pitting against Spinks, I'd favour Spinks to come on strong late to be honest, though I'm not sure whether Conteh could be hurt at his peak because he was probably pissing his punch resistance up the wall from his peak to the end. I'd favour Spinks as I said.

All his wins were good. Michael was in his 3rd and 4th year as a professional when he beat Lopez, Sutherland, Mustafa, and Johnson. He was brought on awfully quickly and was beating all of these seasoned tough fighters.

[ripcity]

Hard for me to say I don't have a concrete p4p list.
While I think Julio Ceaser Chavez was one of the best ever at 130 and exlent at 135. I think he is overrated at 140.

[Flea Man]

Hard for me to say I don't have a concrete p4p list.
While I think Julio Ceaser Chavez was one of the best ever at 130 and exlent at 135. I think he is overrated at 140.

Great insight. You have him above Arguello?

[anarci]

quote by Addie[Physically he was the best he could have been, and was certainly at his peak in my jugdment, but he wasn't allowed to look good because Duran was smothering him, landing shots for the better part of 15 rounds. I was actually just trying to make a point. If anything, we all under appreciate what Spinks achieved in moving up to the Heavyweight division and handing Larry Holmes his first defeat.

Michael Spinks was not a great Heavyweight, and like Holmes, was not at his peak at the time of their first fight. Therefore, arguing that Spinks beat a past it Holmes is void because they were both past their best, but at least Holmes was operating at his most effective weight. Michael didn't go out there and steal a decision, he went out and took it to the much bigger man and befuddled Holmes with his combination's and relentless, educated pressure. It was a fantastic performance, not one to be played down.]

I can agree on the part about Spinks not "dominating" one of the best LHW era's of all


time. Lopez was at the end of his feather, Johnson had already been in his wars with Saad, and there were no Conteh and Saad on his resume. That said, he did dominate a good LHW era, and I really don't see how we can downplay his achievement of moving up and beating Larry Holmes. It was marvelous.[/quote]


Very good post im a big spinks guy and that was one one of the best performances ive ever seen
For as big as Spinks fan as i was even before that fight,I thought he was biting off more than he can chew and that Holmes would crush him. People forget what a huge upset that was,and Spinks did it in convincing fashion.

[Flea Man]

One guy who features way too high on a lot of peoples lists is Ricardo Lopez.

ATG skills.

Not coupled with a resume fit for a fighter above 75 IMO.

[Seamus]

Joe Frazier was the last of the tiny heavy champs and is vastly over-rated on the basis of defeating the shuck and jive artist that was the post-exile Ali. Fair-to-middlin', not much more...

[anarci]

Hard for me to say I don't have a concrete p4p list.
While I think Julio Ceaser Chavez was one of the best ever at 130 and exlent at 135. I think he is overrated at 140.:nono No way he is with out a doubt the greatest Jw ever his resume and longevity at 140 speaks for itself. I think you got to do your homework on Chavez. While i agree his best fighting weight was probably 135. A large chunk of his championship resume is at 140. How about 13 title defenses in his first reign, and then another 4 in his second reign. How about 34-2-2-28kos at 140. With his only losses coming when he was clearly past it.

To me its not even close when talking about the greatest JWs of all time:bart

[anarci]

One guy who features way too high on a lot of peoples lists is Ricardo Lopez.

ATG skills.

Not coupled with a resume fit for a fighter above 75 IMO. Oh i see you trying to be funny again ha:lol::lol: Im not going there done it a Million times , 24 title defenses,undefeated record,and Watching him on in the Ring says it all!! Hes a top 30 ATG:yep

[Flea Man]

Oh i see you trying to be funny again ha:lol::lol: Im not going there done it a Million times , 24 title defenses,undefeated record,and Watching him on in the Ring says it all!! Hes a top 30 ATG:yep

Who would you have directly behind Lopez in the list?

[redrooster]

A New Year is coming, why don't you give us an original thought for a change.

I assure you that nothing will change but that date on the calender. Expect to see more of the same in the near future.

BTW, Terry Norris rocks!!

[Mantequilla]

Personally, i have Lopez just above Grigorian.

[redrooster]

No he didnt. Pyor actually rejected a offer of $5000 to fight Leonard and admitted in a postfight interview. When Pryor got his biggest win against Arguello, Leonard was retired.

When Leonard was active at 147lb the fight everyone wanted to see was Hearns and Leonard....

HBO Legendary nights created the myth


5,000? Hold on a sec.....

:lol::lol::nut:oops::-(:patsch:roll::shock::admin

That's a joke, right? Probably wouldnt even cover training expenses.

Why not 5,000,000?

That mustve been Leonard's way of disuading Pryor from pushing for it so he could get out of another tough fight

[anarci]

Personally, i have Lopez just above Grigorian. The only Grigorian ive ever heard of was a mediocre Ligtweight name Artur Grigorian who had a piece of the WBO title. I know your kidding.

[anarci]

Who would you have directly behind Lopez in the list? I did a rough draft a while back and i actually had him higher but, I realized there are a few more that i should have put above him so im just guessing 30. Put it this way I have him around very good company with the Arguellos,Kid Gavilans

[Mantequilla]

The only Grigorian ive ever heard of was a mediocre Ligtweight name Artur Grigorian who had a piece of the WBO title. I know your kidding.

Artur was the king.

[anarci]

Artur was the king.:lol: Are you guys related?

[Flea Man]

Well that's unjustafiable INO. Fighters have looked as good as Lopez but against quality opposition, and as much as you protest Alvarez does not register as a high end win.

Lovely to look at was Lopez, but there's little real quality in that dominance. Not enough to justify a top 50 ranking, let alonetop 30.

[anarci]

Well that's unjustafiable INO. Fighters have looked as good as Lopez but against quality opposition, and as much as you protest Alvarez does not register as a high end win.

Lovely to look at was Lopez, but there's little real quality in that dominance. Not enough to justify a top 50 ranking, let alonetop 30.
As far as quality opposition you have a point, or else i would have him in my top 10 to 15:yep I just see him as technichally so much better than even some of the greats, and its hard for me to put him any lower than the early 30s.

[ripcity]

:nono No way he is with out a doubt the greatest Jw ever his resume and longevity at 140 speaks for itself. I think you got to do your homework on Chavez. While i agree his best fighting weight was probably 135. A large chunk of his championship resume is at 140. How about 13 title defenses in his first reign, and then another 4 in his second reign. How about 34-2-2-28kos at 140. With his only losses coming when he was clearly past it.

To me its not even close when talking about the greatest JWs of all time:bart
He was protected like he was Fort Knox. His best wins in at 140 are. In order of date.
1. Roger Mayweather ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) who he allready beat.
2. Meldrick Taylor ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Rather or not you agree with Richard Steele ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s decision. He needed it for the win.
3. John Duplessis ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) nice record 36-1 but who did he fight before or since.
4. Lonnie Smith ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) a former light weight champion who lost in his first defense, and that was 5 years before.
5. Angel Hernandez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Undefeted and untested.
6. Frankie Mitchell ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). He had fought for a fetherweight championship and lost 2 years before.
7. Hector Camacho ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Had seen better days. He was no longer the fast and flashy boxer he wa in his younger days.
8. Greg Haugen ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). A solid boxer but by no means great. He was also past his best.
9. Frankie Randall ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). The first guy to "officialy" beat him. A gift decision if I ever saw one. Thanks for playing Julio Cesar. Tell him what he gets for quiting. You get a brand new world championship.:happy:happy:happy:happy
10. Tony Lopez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Quilty light weight but not a p4per.
11. Giovanni Parisi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Quility light welterweight but not a p4per.
12. David Kamau ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). A good boxer but not world championship level.
Don't get me started on his bum of the month club that makes up the rest of his wins at 140.

[anarci]

Actually i dont think thats a bad list at all. Alot better than many other fighters with a number of title defenses.
Check this out you are an obvious Chavez hater and im sure i could easily pick apart most Champs title defenses.
Who do you think was the greatest JW ?

[anarci]

He was protected like he was Fort Knox. His best wins in at 140 are. In order of date.
1. Roger Mayweather ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) who he allready beat.
2. Meldrick Taylor ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Rather or not you agree with Richard Steele ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s decision. He needed it for the win.
3. John Duplessis ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) nice record 36-1 but who did he fight before or since.
4. Lonnie Smith ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) a former light weight champion who lost in his first defense, and that was 5 years before.
5. Angel Hernandez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Undefeted and untested.
6. Frankie Mitchell ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). He had fought for a fetherweight championship and lost 2 years before.
7. Hector Camacho ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Had seen better days. He was no longer the fast and flashy boxer he wa in his younger days.
8. Greg Haugen ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). A solid boxer but by no means great. He was also past his best.
9. Frankie Randall ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). The first guy to "officialy" beat him. A gift decision if I ever saw one. Thanks for playing Julio Cesar. Tell him what he gets for quiting. You get a brand new world championship.:happy:happy:happy:happy
10. Tony Lopez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Quilty light weight but not a p4per.
11. Giovanni Parisi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Quility light welterweight but not a p4per.
12. David Kamau ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). A good boxer but not world championship level.
Don't get me started on his bum of the month club that makes up the rest of his wins at 140. You forgot Sammy Fuentes(good fighter) Terrance Ali(top contender good fighter) and Undefeated Andy Holligan. Marty Jakubowski 37-0,Cortes 44-0, and when Chavez was past it former 2x Champ Gamache, and 2 time Champ and pretty good fighter Miguel A Gonzalez the fight was a draw but i thought Chavez won it.

See even when you try and talk shit you leave out quite a few fighters just to make your argument look good, if anything you reminded how solid his claim is as the greatest JW ever.

[ripcity]

Actually i dont think thats a bad list at all. Alot better than many other fighters with a number of title defenses.
Check this out you are an obvious Chavez hater and im sure i could easily pick apart most Champs title defenses.
Who do you think was the greatest JW ?
Kostya Tszyu in my opinion has the best over all resume at 140.
I think there quit a few guys who would beat him head to head though but they did not stay at 140 long enough to build a resume there.

[anarci]

Well if you want to compare their resumes at 140 its close but Chavez still gets the nods and in a HTH matchup I would definitley pick a 91 Chavez over a 01 Tszyu.
Tszyus biggest win was over Judah, who in my opinion was not as good as Taylor
Tszyu also had trouble at times with an Old Mayweather and failed to knock him out someone that Chavez knocked out twice when Mayweather was in his prime. Tszyu was also stopped in his prime by Vince Phillips, Chavez was never stopped in his prime, hell he never even loss! He also won the title in his first reign against a better fighter when he stopped Mayweather, not a awkward glorified journeyman like Jake Rodriguez. KT also faced alot of fighters who were way past it Grove,May,Chavez,Leija,Gonzalez and blown up lightweight Ruelas who still managed to hurt Tszyu. He had good wins over a faded Sharmba Mitchell and a talented but glass jawed Hurtado, Judah glass jaw

Tszyu 4 defenses first reign, 12 second, 18-2-1nc-15 kos at JW
Chavez13 defenses 1st reign, 4 second, 34-2-2-28 kos at JW

Resume close but edge to Chavez, Better fighter clearly Chavez!!!!!!

[Seamus]

He was protected like he was Fort Knox. His best wins in at 140 are. In order of date.
1. Roger Mayweather ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) who he allready beat.
2. Meldrick Taylor ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Rather or not you agree with Richard Steele ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s decision. He needed it for the win.
3. John Duplessis ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) nice record 36-1 but who did he fight before or since.
4. Lonnie Smith ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) a former light weight champion who lost in his first defense, and that was 5 years before.
5. Angel Hernandez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Undefeted and untested.
6. Frankie Mitchell ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). He had fought for a fetherweight championship and lost 2 years before.
7. Hector Camacho ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Had seen better days. He was no longer the fast and flashy boxer he wa in his younger days.
8. Greg Haugen ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). A solid boxer but by no means great. He was also past his best.
9. Frankie Randall ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). The first guy to "officialy" beat him. A gift decision if I ever saw one. Thanks for playing Julio Cesar. Tell him what he gets for quiting. You get a brand new world championship.:happy:happy:happy:happy
10. Tony Lopez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Quilty light weight but not a p4per.
11. Giovanni Parisi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Quility light welterweight but not a p4per.
12. David Kamau ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). A good boxer but not world championship level.
Don't get me started on his bum of the month club that makes up the rest of his wins at 140.

That's actually a very, very impressive list.

[Mantequilla]

Is it hell.It's decent at best.Chavez best fighters fought were mostly all at lower weights.

[anarci]

That's actually a very, very impressive list.:good I agree he tried to put Chavez list down,but it ended up looking good. Chavez list of Victims were better than Tszyu's,and Chavez never lost in his prime much less get kod like Tszyu did.

[Clinton]

I don't think Leonard looked "really, really good" in Montreal. Physically he was the best he could have been, and was certainly at his peak in my jugdment, but he wasn't allowed to look good because Duran was smothering him, landing shots for the better part of 15 rounds. I was actually just trying to make a point. If anything, we all under appreciate what Spinks achieved in moving up to the Heavyweight division and handing Larry Holmes his first defeat.

Michael Spinks was not a great Heavyweight, and like Holmes, was not at his peak at the time of their first fight. Therefore, arguing that Spinks beat a past it Holmes is void because they were both past their best, but at least Holmes was operating at his most effective weight. Michael didn't go out there and steal a decision, he went out and took it to the much bigger man and befuddled Holmes with his combination's and relentless, educated pressure. It was a fantastic performance, not one to be played down.

I can agree on the part about Spinks not "dominating" one of the best LHW era's of all time. Lopez was at the end of his feather, Johnson had already been in his wars with Saad, and there were no Conteh and Saad on his resume. That said, he did dominate a good LHW era, and I really don't see how we can downplay his achievement of moving up and beating Larry Holmes. It was marvelous.
He outboxed Dwight Muhammed Qawi,who destroyed Saad,who whipped Conteh.I know I'm guilty of fighter A beating fighter B,etc...but beating Qawi was impressive.And he also convincingly beat Eddie Mustafa Muhammed.

[Clinton]

Is it hell.It's decent at best.Chavez best fighters fought were mostly all at lower weights.
So was Chavez.

[JohnThomas1]

Jeff Fenech comes to mind.

Fenech had some good wins but no great wins IMO. His best fight was D12 Azumah Nelson in 1991. A case can be made that he won the fight.


No kidding! :blood

Nelson was much better in the rematch (like he usually was) and stopped Fenech in 8 rounds... in Australia.Fenech is claimed to be worse, too.

It was considered an upset but that just goes to show you how much Fenech was overrated. Nelson was underrated.How could it not be rated an upset when Fenech flogged the shit out of him just previous and now had the advantage of fighting at home? It's not rocket science here.

Fenech beat the likes of-

Jerome Coffee W15
Daniel Zaragoza W10
Steve McCrory KO14
Greg Richardson KO5
Carlos Zarate WTD4

Marco Villasano W12 (Villasano had already lost to Nelson twice)

Mario Martinez W12 (Martinez dropped Fenech in the 6th, he had also already lost to Nelson twice... once by KO)

All good names but far from great with the exception being Zarate. Zarate was already 36 years old and had 68 fights. Zarate fought just once more (LKOby10 Zaragoza).It's an excellent array of wins, especially considering he was scaling the weights at a rapid rate as well and still accumulating titles.

How could you not have Callejas in this initial list?!?!?! Yet again he was moving up in weight after another title and Victor had built up a very solid following. He was very highly rated. Fenech rates this his best win.

Coffee had been built right up in America.

Villasana had drawn the very highly rated Antonio Esparragoza his previous fight, and that included a point deduction. Without that he was champ.

Martinez was always a fine win, tough as nails and a fine barometer.

He fought mostly in Australia where everything was done his way. The only big fight on his resume that wasn't in Australia was the draw with Nelson. His only other fight outside of Australia was vs. Tialano Tovar KO8 who had a record of 10-10-1 fighter.You don't rate Carlos Monzon at all, right?

Sure, he won titles at 118, 122, and 126. Maybe he should have even won one at 130 but 130 would have been the only one worth mentioning IMO. Beating guys like Shingaki, Payakaroon, and Callejas is nothing compared to a win over Azumah Nelson.Your disdain for Fenech oozes out with every paragraph. Not much in boxing full stop compares to a win over a great like Nelson but to write off everything else Fenech did and rating them compared to such shows you ain't rating Fenech full stop.

He did fight for a title at 135 but was stopped in 2 by Phillip Holiday. He was also stopped in 7 by Calvin Grove (Grove had already lost Nelson).He never again fought a good fight post Nelson I. His star burned ever so brightly for 6 years, then was OUT.

Yep, in 2008 he beat a 50 year old Azumah Nelson by Majority Decision in AUSTRALIA! The fight means nothing, I'm pretty sure we all agree.No one has ever brought that up as meaningful anyway.

[anarci]

So was Chavez. Bullshit WTF do you Chavez haters know? Jack Shit thats what i say ! Chavez is underrated big time!!

[anarci]

I agree with you John Thomas, I think Fenech was underrated not overrated in fact when before he beat Callejas i had Callejas breaking into my Top 10 Pfp in a pretty good era.

[JohnThomas1]

I agree with you John Thomas, I think Fenech was underrated not overrated in fact when before he beat Callejas i had Callejas breaking into my Top 10 Pfp in a pretty good era.

H2H i think he'd beat plenty of ATG's from Bantam to Feather and possibly a few at 130 to boot.

[Jaws]

I think Holmes is overrated. An ATG for sure, but not at #2 or #3 where I see many putting him. He has a bland resume with no keystone wins and some questionable avoidances. The strength of his resume is longevity, but not much else. I have him at the bottom of the Top 10 Heavies. Again, assuredly an ATG, but the bottom line is I find it easy to put 8 or 9 men in front of him.

[ripcity]

Well if you want to compare their resumes at 140 its close but Chavez still gets the nods and in a HTH matchup I would definitley pick a 91 Chavez over a 01 Tszyu.
Tszyus biggest win was over Judah, who in my opinion was not as good as Taylor
Tszyu also had trouble at times with an Old Mayweather and failed to knock him out someone that Chavez knocked out twice when Mayweather was in his prime. Tszyu was also stopped in his prime by Vince Phillips, Chavez was never stopped in his prime, hell he never even loss! He also won the title in his first reign against a better fighter when he stopped Mayweather, not a awkward glorified journeyman like Jake Rodriguez. KT also faced alot of fighters who were way past it Grove,May,Chavez,Leija,Gonzalez and blown up lightweight Ruelas who still managed to hurt Tszyu. He had good wins over a faded Sharmba Mitchell and a talented but glass jawed Hurtado, Judah glass jaw

Tszyu 4 defenses first reign, 12 second, 18-2-1nc-15 kos at JW
Chavez13 defenses 1st reign, 4 second, 34-2-2-28 kos at JW

Resume close but edge to Chavez, Better fighter clearly Chavez!!!!!!
"Tszyus biggest win was over Judah, who in my opinion was not as good as Taylor" Wont argue with you there but Chavez needed 12 rounds and for a decision made by the refree that another refree could have easly not made. Tszyu neeeded only 2 rounds to beat Judah.
His resume may not be as deep but he fought better boxers than Chaveaz.
When I said that there are quite a few boxers that I'd favor over Tszyu at 140. Chavez is not one of them. Tszyu had speed and skills the two things that gave the 140 Chavez trubble.
Like I said one of the best ever at 130, Exlent at 135 but overrated at 140.

[anarci]

Chavez would have busted Tszyu up worst than Hatton. Yey i know Tszyu was past his prime but Chavez is 10x better than Hatton comes forward like Hatton Sharper and more accurate puncher, 20x better chin, Everything Ricky could do Chavez could do much better. His accurate punches would have had Tszyu looking worst than Taylor but he would get there easier and faster. Tszyu would have his moments and take some early rounds Chavez would even it up by the 7th and but a thorough butt kicking for the next 3 rounds before knocking him out (maybe stoppage) in 10 round.

PS Taylor was much tougher than Judah thats why he went 12 with Chavez, Taylor had a good Chin before Chavez. Taylor could do for 12 what Judah could only do for 1.

[ripcity]

Chavez would have busted Tszyu up worst than Hatton. Yey i know Tszyu was past his prime but Chavez is 10x better than Hatton comes forward like Hatton Sharper and more accurate puncher, 20x better chin, Everything Ricky could do Chavez could do much better. His accurate punches would have had Tszyu looking worst than Taylor but he would get there easier and faster. Tszyu would have his moments and take some early rounds Chavez would even it up by the 7th and but a thorough butt kicking for the next 3 rounds before knocking him out (maybe stoppage) in 10 round.

PS Taylor was much tougher than Judah thats why he went 12 with Chavez, Taylor had a good Chin before Chavez. Taylor could do for 12 what Judah could only do for 1.
Tszyu would beat Chavez in a prime for prime if you want to call any part of Chavez's 140 career his prime.

[lefthook31]

Chavez would have busted Tszyu up worst than Hatton. Yey i know Tszyu was past his prime but Chavez is 10x better than Hatton comes forward like Hatton Sharper and more accurate puncher, 20x better chin, Everything Ricky could do Chavez could do much better. His accurate punches would have had Tszyu looking worst than Taylor but he would get there easier and faster. Tszyu would have his moments and take some early rounds Chavez would even it up by the 7th and but a thorough butt kicking for the next 3 rounds before knocking him out (maybe stoppage) in 10 round.

PS Taylor was much tougher than Judah thats why he went 12 with Chavez, Taylor had a good Chin before Chavez. Taylor could do for 12 what Judah could only do for 1.

Tsyzu was just very very strong at 140 and Chavez would fight nothing like Ricky Hatton who seemed to approach that fight like a guy on angel dust.
I would give Tsyzu a chance against Chavez at 140 just because Chavez would be in the range of Tsyzus deadly righthand.

[Seamus]

He was protected like he was Fort Knox. His best wins in at 140 are. In order of date.
1. Roger Mayweather ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) who he allready beat.
2. Meldrick Taylor ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Rather or not you agree with Richard Steele ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s decision. He needed it for the win.
3. John Duplessis ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) nice record 36-1 but who did he fight before or since.
4. Lonnie Smith ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) a former light weight champion who lost in his first defense, and that was 5 years before.
5. Angel Hernandez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Undefeted and untested.
6. Frankie Mitchell ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). He had fought for a fetherweight championship and lost 2 years before.
7. Hector Camacho ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Had seen better days. He was no longer the fast and flashy boxer he wa in his younger days.
8. Greg Haugen ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). A solid boxer but by no means great. He was also past his best.
9. Frankie Randall ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). The first guy to "officialy" beat him. A gift decision if I ever saw one. Thanks for playing Julio Cesar. Tell him what he gets for quiting. You get a brand new world championship.:happy:happy:happy:happy
10. Tony Lopez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Quilty light weight but not a p4per.
11. Giovanni Parisi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Quility light welterweight but not a p4per.
12. David Kamau ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). A good boxer but not world championship level.
Don't get me started on his bum of the month club that makes up the rest of his wins at 140.

On a board replete with ignorant posts, this stands out.

Mayweather, the Mexican Killer, was still a great pelt to get at that time coming off victories over Paziena, Brazier and Gonzalez.

Taylor was a career-defining victory, a fight in which Chavez brutally and permanently diminished one of the best talents the US had produced during the decade.

Duplessis was a great interim defense against a guy with one defeat. Chavez fought much more often than the average Yank fighter. If guys like this were his filler, it only elevates his status. Ditto for Smith and Hernadez. Ditto also for Holligan, who was highly ranked and considered a real comer in the division.

Camacho was only 29, the same age as Chavez, and had only lost to Haugen in a debatable situation. Chavez administered a methodically savage beating which humiliated this man. The first comprehensive defeat he endured and the only one near his prime.

Haugen- a vastly underrated fighter- was only two years removed from his greatest victory, hardly over the hill but certainly destroyed in this fight.

Kamau, again an undefeated fighter, a feared and known puncher, worthy and deserved world title challenger, Chavez takes care of him in the twilight of his career.

Randall, I will concede was not a highlight. Chavez was clearly on his way down but still more than just about any contemporary could handle. This is the only dubious mark on his record but certainly not one for derision.

[anarci]

Tsyzu was just very very strong at 140 and Chavez would fight nothing like Ricky Hatton who seemed to approach that fight like a guy on angel dust.
I would give Tsyzu a chance against Chavez at 140 just because Chavez would be in the range of Tsyzus deadly righthand. Chavez would came forward but his underrated defense would have allowed him to slip and get inside Tszyu bic right and deliver punishment that Tszyu has never recieved in his life. Tszyu would land the big right from time to time,but do you actually believe he would have kod Chavez:? Hell no he wouldnt.
Like i said in a earlier post I think 135 was Chavez's best weight but he was still fighting on an ATG level at 140.

[lefthook31]

Chavez would came forward but his underrated defense would have allowed him to slip and get inside Tszyu bic right and deliver punishment that Tszyu has never recieved in his life. Tszyu would land the big right from time to time,but do you actually believe he would have kod Chavez:? Hell no he wouldnt.
Like i said in a earlier post I think 135 was Chavez's best weight but he was still fighting on an ATG level at 140.
He was but he never faced a guy at 140 as physical and strong as Tsyzu. Randall was probably the closest and Randall didnt have too many problems keeping Chavez at bay and even flooring him with the righthand. Plus Randall moved around a little more than Tsyzu so
Yes I think its conceiveable that Tszyu ko's Chavez at 140.
Sometimes guys like Tsyzu have this physical edge over their opponent that kind of offsets their opponents skills, and Tsyzu didnt show this dynamic skillset, he had a good jab and probing righthand but he didnt mix in a whole lot of punches, but he was stronger than a lot of his opponents. Its kind of like Arthur Abraham, he doesnt do too much in a fight, doesnt waste a lot of punches, but he physically just wears down his opponents and beats them up with accurate punches and pressure.

[anarci]

He was but he never faced a guy at 140 as physical and strong as Tsyzu. Randall was probably the closest and Randall didnt have too many problems keeping Chavez at bay and even flooring him with the righthand. Plus Randall moved around a little more than Tsyzu so
Yes I think its conceiveable that Tszyu ko's Chavez at 140.
Sometimes guys like Tsyzu have this physical edge over their opponent that kind of offsets their opponents skills, and Tsyzu didnt show this dynamic skillset, he had a good jab and probing righthand but he didnt mix in a whole lot of punches, but he was stronger than a lot of his opponents. Its kind of like Arthur Abraham, he doesnt do too much in a fight, doesnt waste a lot of punches, but he physically just wears down his opponents and beats them up with accurate punches and pressure. I think Randall had more skills than Kostya thats why he was effective, plus you act like that was prime Chavez. Chavez was clearly on the downslide although still very good he was only about 75% at that time. I agree that he was physically the stronger man than Chavez but Chavez pin point shots would be doing damage to, in fact hed definitly get Kostyas respect you act like Tszyu couldnt be hurt he could, I dont think Chavez would down right ko him but he is capapble of hurting Kostya.
You did have some intresting points i must admit, but i just dont see an ATG like Chavez losing to a borderline great like Kostya. Chavez was never even hurt in his prime and I dont think anyone 140 or below has a chance at knocking him out not even Duran.
How do you think TSzyus face would hold up under Chavezs accurate power shots?

[lefthook31]

On a board replete with ignorant posts, this stands out.

Mayweather, the Mexican Killer, was still a great pelt to get at that time coming off victories over Paziena, Brazier and Gonzalez.

Taylor was a career-defining victory, a fight in which Chavez brutally and permanently diminished one of the best talents the US had produced during the decade.

Duplessis was a great interim defense against a guy with one defeat. Chavez fought much more often than the average Yank fighter. If guys like this were his filler, it only elevates his status. Ditto for Smith and Hernadez. Ditto also for Holligan, who was highly ranked and considered a real comer in the division.

Camacho was only 29, the same age as Chavez, and had only lost to Haugen in a debatable situation. Chavez administered a methodically savage beating which humiliated this man. The first comprehensive defeat he endured and the only one near his prime.

Haugen- a vastly underrated fighter- was only two years removed from his greatest victory, hardly over the hill but certainly destroyed in this fight.

Kamau, again an undefeated fighter, a feared and known puncher, worthy and deserved world title challenger, Chavez takes care of him in the twilight of his career.

Randall, I will concede was not a highlight. Chavez was clearly on his way down but still more than just about any contemporary could handle. This is the only dubious mark on his record but certainly not one for derision.
Agree, but like you said in no way should that diminish Chavez's accomplishments at the lower weights. Id probably put the Camacho win a spot or two higher.
Then when you factor in Tszyu who was a big strong junior welter against these guys that gave him some troubles it perfectly conceiveable Tszyu does a number on him, just too big for the style matchup.

[lefthook31]

I think Randall had more skills than Kostya thats why he was effective, plus you act like that was prime Chavez. Chavez was clearly on the downslide although still very good he was only about 75% at that time. I agree that he was physically the stronger man than Chavez but Chavez pin point shots would be doing damage to, in fact hed definitly get Kostyas respect you act like Tszyu couldnt be hurt he could, I dont think Chavez would down right ko him but he is capapble of hurting Kostya.
You did have some intresting points i must admit, but i just dont see an ATG like Chavez losing to a borderline great like Kostya. Chavez was never even hurt in his prime and I dont think anyone 140 or below has a chance at knocking him out not even Duran.
How do you think TSzyus face would hold up under Chavezs accurate power shots?
Yeah but were talking about an ATG not at his best weight. It just comes down to this for me. The style matchup is bad because both guys come forward and Chavez was just not strong enough at 140 thats how I see it.
Randall was a good fighter just different, not sure he was better than Tszyu but thats a whole different thread.

[anarci]

You didnt answer my question how would Kostya's face hold up under Chavez accurate power shots?

[ironchamp]

1. Jack Dempsey: Does not belong in the top 10 ATG HW list nor does he belong in the top 20 p4p list. Though he's a stellar fighter and great champ his resume is thin and he unrefined. I also think he fought down to his level of competition. Also just because I think he's overrated it doesnt mean that I don't think he's great. He's a great fighter for sure but not as great as some people make him out to be.

[janitor]

1. Jack Dempsey: Does not belong in the top 10 ATG HW list nor does he belong in the top 20 p4p list. Though he's a stellar fighter and great champ his resume is thin and he unrefined. I also think he fought down to his level of competition. Also just because I think he's overrated it doesnt mean that I don't think he's great. He's a great fighter for sure but not as great as some people make him out to be.

I think that the number of mentions for Jack Dempsey in this thread suggests that he is somewhat under-rated on this site.

[Nay_Sayer]

Marciano

[JohnThomas1]

Jack Dempsey
Aaron Pryor

[asero]

Jack Dempsey
Aaron Pryor


do you think pryor used drugs in the arguello fights?

[anarci]

do you think pryor used drugs in the arguello fights? No doubt about it:patsch
It was caught on tape how much more evidence does one need?

Pryor was walking to the wrong coner at the end of the round after a big shot from Arguello, the he comes out in the 14th like it was the 1st.

[JohnThomas1]

do you think pryor used drugs in the arguello fights?


Imo he did, certainly in the first fight. Just my personal feeling. Thing is i am not hitting him on that point, i just think he gets too much milage out of Arguello. Great win etc but the way people hold him up you'd think he was some sort of monster. He's a great, no doubt, but substancially less so than so many think imho.

[lefthook31]

You didnt answer my question how would Kostya's face hold up under Chavez accurate power shots?
I kind of did. I dont think Chavez would do the damage you think to Tsyzu at that weight. Tsyzu was an underated boxer. He had a good jab and moved in and out of range pretty well. That combined with the size advantage which is the biggest factor in making that all work in this fight keeps Tsyzu out of harms way and in control. Just too big.

[Mantequilla]

Imo he did, certainly in the first fight. Just my personal feeling. Thing is i am not hitting him on that point, i just think he gets too much milage out of Arguello. Great win etc but the way people hold him up you'd think he was some sort of monster. He's a great, no doubt, but substancially less so than so many think imho.

Yeah i agree, he established he was probably a great with his displays in those fights, but didn't really do a thing to consolidate on it afterward.

[JudgeDredd]

Roy Jones Jnr - never really tested himself against the best available competition despite his obvious talent.

Ray Robinson........Just kidding :lol:

[Flea Man]

I think that the number of mentions for Jack Dempsey in this thread suggests that he is somewhat under-rated on this site.

Nope. That he is rightfully rated on this site.

[Kalasinn]

Made a mistake. - Will be edited with relevant point if not deleted.

[ironchamp]

I think that the number of mentions for Jack Dempsey in this thread suggests that he is somewhat under-rated on this site.

ESB goes through its cycles.

Back in 04 when I joined this site, Lennox Lewis would never find himself on the top half of a top 10 list now he seems to be moving up steady.

I personally like Dempsey and would have been a huge Dempsey fan had I been around during his day but I can't place him above figthers who I feel are more deserving.

He's certainly underrated by some (unfortunately) but he is still by and large an overrated ATG.

[godking]

I think Holmes is overrated. An ATG for sure, but not at #2 or #3 where I see many putting him. He has a bland resume with no keystone wins and some questionable avoidances. The strength of his resume is longevity, but not much else. I have him at the bottom of the Top 10 Heavies. Again, assuredly an ATG, but the bottom line is I find it easy to put 8 or 9 men in front of him.Name them

[Addie]

Roy Jones Jr - When you break down his win column and put the wins in perspective, it doesn't match-up to a top 30 spot in my judgment. His reign at 175lbs was nothing special.

[Flea Man]

Roy Jones Jr - When you break down his win column and put the wins in perspective, it doesn't match-up to a top 30 spot in my judgment. His reign at 175lbs was nothing special.

He does match up well with my last point of questioning though; 'How did they do it'? He was pretty dominant, though as his wins really weren't that great (he has a few good ones obviously) his title win at Heavy keeps him at around 30-40 IMO. I have Gavilan, Napoles and Williams above him put it that way.

[Addie]

He does match up well with my last point of questioning though; 'How did they do it'? He was pretty dominant, though as his wins really weren't that great (he has a few good ones obviously) his title win at Heavy keeps him at around 30-40 IMO. I have Gavilan, Napoles and Williams above him put it that way.

Well Spinks better resume at 175lbs and the much much better win at Heavyweight should see Michael be about 5-6 places above then? :good

[grumpy]

I agree Roy Jones is overrated.
Also Muhammad Ali
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Felix Trinidad
Oscar de La Hoya
In no particular order

[anarci]

This was a great thread, lets hear some more posts!!

[Unforgiven]

Lennox Lewis, lots of people here have him in the top 3 or 5 heavyweights of all-time. I dont think he belongs that high.
To be honest, I think Wladimir Klitschko's got to be rated close to Lewis by now. Similar fighters. Yet some of the Lennox-lovers here are quick to dismiss Klitschko. That will either change, and they'll start calling WK a top 5 or 6 heavyweight OR they'll carry on being inconsistent.
Frankly, neither of them would make my top 10. Lennox might scrape into the top 12 or 15.

Sometimes I think Liston is a bit overrated.

And Ray Leonard is overrated on all-time welterweight lists. He's routinely put in the top 2 welters of all-time on this board. I think that's too high.

[janitor]

I personally like Dempsey and would have been a huge Dempsey fan had I been around during his day but I can't place him above figthers who I feel are more deserving.

He's certainly underrated by some (unfortunately) but he is still by and large an overrated ATG.

Well I would say that Dempsey is under rated on this site because a reaction has set in against his high ranking elswhere and it has turned into an over reaction.

[Casamayor122]

I think Randall had more skills than Kostya

:nut

[bodhi]

Roy Jones Jr - When you break down his win column and put the wins in perspective, it doesn't match-up to a top 30 spot in my judgment. His reign at 175lbs was nothing special.

:deal

[PowerPuncher]

Roy Jones Jr - When you break down his win column and put the wins in perspective, it doesn't match-up to a top 30 spot in my judgment. His reign at 175lbs was nothing special.

Jones resume and circumstances of his fights are more scrutinised than any other ATG, the hate campaigns have pretty much brain washed the masses and the boxing newbies think he's the great fighter who didn't face all his contemparies

My no1 vote goes to Armstrong, he's universally considered top5 and even no1 but his time at the top was very short and he never faced the top WW imo and he wasn't that dominant at his best weight against Ambers who I don't rate that highly. My other top 5 overrated list goes to Foster, Monzon, Dempsey, Ross but it really boils down to who's over/under rating someone

[Bonecrusher]

Delahoya!!

The Golden boy.....

He was a very good fighter, but come on he lost or should have lost on the big stage many times.

At lightweight he was a beast early in his career.

His fight against Whitaker could have gone either way and Whitaker was well past it. Trinidad was much more impressive against Whitaker.

In The Trinidad Super Fight, he avoided contact down the stretch and also avoided a Decision win.

Another loss to Mosley while still clearly in his prime.

The Vargas fight was a good win, but again Trinidads was more impressive.

Another loss to Mosley although I thought Delahoya won this one.

Felix Sturm, I know he was out of shape but still this could be another loss!!

Point is in his prime this guy came up short alot, have to run I will have more later.

[Stevie G]

Lennox Lewis, lots of people here have him in the top 3 or 5 heavyweights of all-time. I dont think he belongs that high.
To be honest, I think Wladimir Klitschko's got to be rated close to Lewis by now. Similar fighters. Yet some of the Lennox-lovers here are quick to dismiss Klitschko. That will either change, and they'll start calling WK a top 5 or 6 heavyweight OR they'll carry on being inconsistent.
Frankly, neither of them would make my top 10. Lennox might scrape into the top 12 or 15.

Sometimes I think Liston is a bit overrated.

And Ray Leonard is overrated on all-time welterweight lists. He's routinely put in the top 2 welters of all-time on this board. I think that's too high.
How many welterweight champs do you think could have beaten Leonard ? Robinson could have definitely,but I'm hard pushed to think of many more. Though there are a few I would give a 50/50 shot to.

[bighappy]

if tito ATG he's at the bottom of the list , lewis hell on he was the best in a sorry heavy weight division. kostya tszyu as well

[PowerPuncher]

Lennox Lewis, lots of people here have him in the top 3 or 5 heavyweights of all-time. I dont think he belongs that high.
To be honest, I think Wladimir Klitschko's got to be rated close to Lewis by now. Similar fighters. Yet some of the Lennox-lovers here are quick to dismiss Klitschko. That will either change, and they'll start calling WK a top 5 or 6 heavyweight OR they'll carry on being inconsistent.
Frankly, neither of them would make my top 10. Lennox might scrape into the top 12 or 15.

Sometimes I think Liston is a bit overrated.

And Ray Leonard is overrated on all-time welterweight lists. He's routinely put in the top 2 welters of all-time on this board. I think that's too high.

Lennox beat everyone he faced in 1 of the best eras, Wlad who I do rate highly (maybe over Dempsey already) is nowhere near Lennox resume wise, you could argue Lennox has about 10wins better than anyone Wlad has ever faced in Holyfield, Vitali, Tua, Tyson, Golota, Rudduck, Prime Rahman, Bruno, Prime Mercer, Morrison. Its not Wlad's fault he's not in a great era and his dominance gets him marks none the less, he will always have the Sanders and Purrity unavenged losses though

I found it interesting Steward said Wlad kicked Vitali out of training camp for the first Sam Peter fight because his brother was being so negative

[werety]

I disagree i think Fenech was underrated really. Some of those wins you downplayed. Callejas was very good as was Villasana(who he dominated) Richardson was a very good boxer in fact all those guys were.
You said a case can be made that he beat Azumah? Did you see that fight? He was clearly robbed. Martinez could bang and was a good fighter no shame in getting dropped there. Payakurun was good and he made him go to monastery and turn Monk.
Zarragoza is Hof that was a very good win.

Zarate was washed up though ill give you that
By the time he fought Holiday and Grove he was washed up he would have kicked the crap out of both those guys in his prime

Is that a joke??

[Unforgiven]

How many welterweight champs do you think could have beaten Leonard ? Robinson could have definitely,but I'm hard pushed to think of many more. Though there are a few I would give a 50/50 shot to.

Well, Roberto Duran did beat him, so you can throw him in there.

Hypothetical fantasy match-ups are very subjective, and I haven't seen enough of every champion to make many solid guesses. But there are several welterweight champions with great wins and great reigns, and many with a lot more depth and a lot more fights than Leonard had.

Leonard beat Benitez and Hearns and went 1-1 with Duran, and beat a few contenders on the way up. That's quite impressive, but I'm not convinced that's a top 2 welterweight of all-time.
I dont think Benitez was a truly great welterweight champion. Hearns was a great destroyer, but still a little unseasoned, a great fighter nontheless, and Leonard's greatest win.
It took Leonard two attempts to beat Duran. There's no shame in that, but seeing as Leonard's welterweight reign lacks successful defenses over any other good fighters other than Duran and Hearns, I think he falls short of the ranking being given to him.

[Addie]

Roy Jones Jr

Conventional wisdom seems to be that he is the most gifted fighter that ever lived, and nobody below Heavyweight would have been able to defeat him. I say he looked infallible for so long not only as a result of his obvious talent, but also because the Light Heavyweight division was a barren wasteland. The best one he fought, one that couldn't hold the jockstraps of Charles or Spinks, also defeated him two times out of three. I say there are plenty of Light Heavyweights and a few Middleweights throughout history who could and probably would have defeated Roy Jones Jr at his brilliant best.

Aaron Pryor

All too often I see this man being listed among some all to familiar names like Alexis Arguello or Julio Cesar Chavez. The credibility of these said individuals is up for debate, but the majority still seem to have him easily among the top 50 greatest fighters of all time? I say Pryor scored one great victory over a past prime former Super Featherweight, and then slowly faded into obscurity. He would struggle to make my top 80.

[Stonehands89]

Roy Jones Jr

Conventional wisdom seems to be that he is the most gifted fighter that ever lived, and nobody below Heavyweight would have been able to defeat him. I say he looked infallible for so long not only as a result of his obvious talent, but also because the Light Heavyweight division was a barren wasteland. The best one he fought, one that couldn't hold the jockstraps of Charles or Spinks, also defeated him two times out of three. I say there are plenty of Light Heavyweights and a few Middleweights throughout history who could and probably would have defeated Roy Jones Jr at his brilliant best.

Aaron Pryor

All too often I see this man being listed among some all to familiar names like Alexis Arguello or Julio Cesar Chavez. The credibility of these said individuals is up for debate, but the majority still seem to have him easily among the top 50 greatest fighters of all time? I say Pryor scored one great victory over a past prime former Super Featherweight, and then slowly faded into obscurity. He would struggle to make my top 80.
Good stuff. It seems that you heavily consider experience/caliber of opponent.

[anarci]

Is that a joke?? Actually i had heard that back then and i always believed it. I guess it was a joke cause i just looked at Boxing records and he did fight after. ?????? All these years i thought he traumatized Payakaroon. LOL LOL

[El Bujia]

I don't know but Dempsey is fast becoming one of the most underrated.

[Addie]

Good stuff. It seems that you heavily consider experience/caliber of opponent.

The most effective and accurate way of ranking fighters is to access the level of competition they defeated.

[tommygun711]

Jones seems to be very overrated.
Remember that one dude that had jones #1 All Time P4P? ABOVE RAY ROBINSON?
:lol::lol::lol:

[Bokaj]

It's very hard to give a definite answer here, since it often differs wildly how fighters are rated by different persons.

But Bert Sugar has named Dempsey as one of his top 5 p4p, and that is as overrated as I've ever seen a fighter get by someone that is after all knowledagable of the sport.

I've also seen posters here who have Dempsey as thier nr. 1 or nr. 2 HW of all time, which I think is way too high.

But then there has been a reaction against this, so it's hard to say.

Then we have Roy Jones. Some posters have him way higher than his record merits, but on the other hand I don't think any fighter has looked quite as untouchable in his prime. Of course, that may well be because he didn't face enough opponents with the quality to really ask questions of him, but having wins over Toney and Hopkins and still looking as superior as he did is really something. From that perspective I can see why some rate him very highly h2h, even though his record doesn't support it.

[SuzieQ49]

I don't know but Dempsey is fast becoming one of the most underrated.

Disagree. We still have people out there who claim he is number 1 of all time.

[Swarmer]

Then we have Roy Jones. Some posters have him way higher than his record merits, but on the other hand I don't think any fighter has looked quite as untouchable in his prime. Of course, that may well be because he didn't face enough opponents with the quality to really ask questions of him, but having wins over Toney and Hopkins and still looking as superior as he did is really something. From that perspective I can see why some rate him very highly h2h, even though his record doesn't support it.

Indeed. His unorthodoxy combined with that athleticism also gives him some serious pull in H2H matches. It begs the question, how does any fighter prepare themselves for an RJJ fight stylistically? As Kellerman once said,

"It's like you in your prime roy....what caaaaaan you doooooo???"
:lol:

[Addie]

Of course, that may well be because he didn't face enough opponents with the quality to really ask questions of him, but having wins over Toney and Hopkins and still looking as superior as he did is really something.

Do you not think Bernard Hopkins was only a segment of what he'd later become at the time of the Jones fight?

[Bokaj]

Indeed. His unorthodoxy combined with that athleticism also gives him some serious pull in H2H matches. It begs the question, how does any fighter prepare themselves for an RJJ fight stylistically? As Kellerman once said,

"It's like you in your prime roy....what caaaaaan you doooooo???"
:lol:

I think Jones will divide opinion for a long time to come. There are quite a few with a better record than him, but skillwise I feel he often gets underrated. I think he was quite a lot more than just extraordinary fast twitch muscle fibers.

[Bokaj]

Do you not think Bernard Hopkins was only a segment of what he'd later become at the time of the Jones fight?

That is one discussion I don't want to be dragged into. Suffice it to say, Hopkins was still quite a way from being the master that schooled Trinidad and Pavlik (two of my absolute favourite perfomances incidentally), but Jones would also improve and he beat Hopkins easily. I would really have liked a rematch some time in the late 90's or early 00's, but as it is it's still a damn impressive perfomance by Jones.

[Swarmer]

I think Jones will divide opinion for a long time to come. There are quite a few with a better record than him, but skillwise I feel he often gets underrated. I think he was quite a lot more than just extraordinary fast twitch muscle fibers.

Roy was unorthodox, but a lot of people equate that with being technically unsound in his case. To the contrary, i find that jones is technically very sound in certain areas, in some more so than a great deal of modern fighters. People forget what an adept body puncher he was, and his feinting and drawing was the best of any post-black and white fighter i have ever seen(yes, that's right)... the way he combined it with his counterpunching was his greatest asset imo, more so than his stellar combinations or fast feet.

Do you not think Bernard Hopkins was only a segment of what he'd later become at the time of the Jones fight?

to me b-hop is the perfect example of a fighter who bloomed late.. if he had been consistently boxing in his youth his technical and physical prime would have overlapped and i think he might have been a different level of fighter, despite being as good as he already was.

[Addie]

That is one discussion I don't want to be dragged into. Suffice it to say, Hopkins was still quite a way from being the master that schooled Trinidad and Pavlik (two of my absolute favorite perfomances incidentally), but Jones would also improve and he beat Hopkins easily. I would really have liked a rematch some time in the late 90's or early 00's, but as it is it's still a damn impressive perfomance by Jones.

Jones wasn't far away from the finished article in 1993, whereas Hopkins required a lot more experience and seasoning. One was arguably the greatest physical talent of the last 30 years, and the other was an ex-convict. I'm not saying Hopkins would have ever defeated Jones Junior, but the Hopkins that fought Trinidad was a completely different assignment. Another animal, altogether.

[Bokaj]

Roy was unorthodox, but a lot of people equate that with being technically unsound in his case. To the contrary, i find that jones is technically very sound in certain areas, in some more so than a great deal of modern fighters. People forget what an adept body puncher he was, and his feinting and drawing was the best of any post-black and white fighter i have ever seen(yes, that's right)... the way he combined it with his counterpunching was his greatest asset imo, more so than his stellar combinations or fast feet.

Yeah, I think unorthodox fighters too often are mistaken for unskilled. But that's a different discussion.

[Bokaj]

Jones wasn't far away from the finished article in 1993, whereas Hopkins required a lot more experience and seasoning. One was arguably the greatest physical talent of the last 30 years, and the other was an ex-convict. I'm not saying Hopkins would have ever defeated Jones Junior, but the Hopkins that fought Trinidad was a completely different assignment. Another animal, altogether.

As I said, I don't want it to derail into this discussion. Let's just say that the Hopkins that Jones beat was already very good and he beat him easily without having reached the peak of his powers himself. He probably wasn't even at his best weight class at the time.

All in all I think this makes for a very impressive win.

[Addie]

As I said, I don't want it to derail into this discussion. Let's just say that the Hopkins that Jones beat was already very good and he beat him easily without having reached the peak of his powers himself. He probably wasn't even at his best weight class at the time.

All in all I think this makes for a very impressive win.

Why so reluctant to discuss it? I'm not trying to completely discredit Jones for the victory, but I think it's fair to say that it's a little short of being as great of an achievement as it reads on paper. That's all.

[Bokaj]

Why so reluctant to discuss it? I'm not trying to completely discredit Jones for the victory, but I think it's fair to say that it's a little short of being as great of an achievement as it reads on paper. That's all.

It's just that I've been in very long discussions on this very topic before. Don't want to wake the wrong people...

But, yeah, had he beaten Hopkins that easily in say 2001 then it would be a greater win. But it would never be perfect. Was it done at LHW or even at SMW there would always be people saying that it wasn't Hopkins best weight etc.

[ripcity]

Roberto Duran.

[El Bujia]

Disagree. We still have people out there who claim he is number 1 of all time.I haven't seen any on this forum, or very many places at all. The majority of the time I see his name mentioned it's regarding how overrated he is. You won't find a fighter more highly regarded during his time. Langford himself claimed Dempsey as the best Heavyweight he'd ever seen.

[robert ungurean]

Lennox Lewis. Even though I dont consider him an alltime great alot of people here do. I think he is a good solid big man but definatly not an all time great. I personally think Bowe would have taken him too.

[Swarmer]

I haven't seen any on this forum, or very many places at all. The majority of the time I see his name mentioned it's regarding how overrated he is. You won't find a fighter more highly regarded during his time. Langford himself claimed Dempsey as the best Heavyweight he'd ever seen.

Yep, it's almost like reverse overrating. The boxing media, fighters, and trainers of the time have him rated super high, tons of praise, etc but all we have today of the man are some grainy films of him beating on mediocre contenders, one or two fights of him in his prime, and tunney boxing his ears off. Hard to know how good he really was.

[werety]

Actually i had heard that back then and i always believed it. I guess it was a joke cause i just looked at Boxing records and he did fight after. ?????? All these years i thought he traumatized Payakaroon. LOL LOL

HAHA yea I was wondering because I vaguely remember something about Payakaroon attempting a comeback in the 90's. Payakaroon really was a legend in his own right though, to be on of the greatest Muay Thai fighters of all time and a championship level boxer is pretty amazing.

[lora]

Khaosai Galaxy
ricardo Lopez
Pone Kingpetch
Lennox Lewis
Floyd Mayweather jr
Ayub Kalule
Michael Spinks

[natonic]

I don't consider him an ATG, but James Toney is overrated IMO.

[Addie]

Michael Spinks

...No.

[tommygun711]

Michael Spinks
disagree.
he was really only defeated twice, by the absolute best, and he beat the best out there until then.

[Addie]

disagree.
he was really only defeated twice, by the absolute beat, and he beat the best out there until then.

...And universally remembered mostly for his only official loss.

One overrated cunt that Spinks.

[Primadonna Kool]

Rocky Marciano.

[Boxed Ears]

...And universally remembered mostly for his only official loss.

One overrated cunt that Spinks.

And you know what else? Palomino's mustache shits all over Spinks' mustache any day.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Palomino?>>>>>>>>>Spinks.

[lora]

...And universally remembered mostly for his only official loss.

One overrated cunt that Spinks.

The balance tipped in the other direction for him a while ago, i tend to think.

I'm also slightly less of a fan of his tepid fights with an aging, uninspired Holmes than most(especially as he LOST the second), worthy accomplishment though the first was.Give me Charles vs Marciano anyday.

[sugarsean]

Winona Ryder :stir

[lora]

Morales
MAB
Pac
JMM
Buchanan
Jeff Chandler
Azumah Nelson above 126
Manuel Ortiz

[Addie]

The balance tipped in the other direction for him a while ago, i tend to think.

I'm also slightly less of a fan of his tepid fights with an aging, uninspired Holmes than most(especially as he LOST the second), worthy accomplishment though the first was.Give me Charles vs Marciano anyday.

:lol: Worthy accomplishment.

You are tending to think wrong, Lora.

[Addie]

Morales

:-(

MAB

:-(

Pac

Maybe...

JMM
:good

Buchanan

:good

[anarci]

Morales
MAB
Pac
JMM
Buchanan
Jeff Chandler
Azumah Nelson above 126
Manuel Ortiz
Thats funny cause i think Ortiz,Chandler,JMM are underrated. Buchanan and Nelson at 130 maybe just a tad overrated. Morales,MAB,PAC are rated fairly IMO.

[Rock0052]

On a head to head basis...

Hopkins at MW

Liston

Ali - who, incidentally enough, I have rated one or two at the weight depending on the day. I just think people go overboard with how unbeatable he was...which is ironic considering how many of the same guys get pissed at old timers like Burt Sugar for hyping Dempsey as being unbeatable. Same shit, different day.

[jaffay]

Gene Tunney at HW
Mike Tyson
Fitzsimmons at HW
Julio Cesar Chavez
Max Schmeling
Bob Foster
Naseem Hamed
Muhammad Ali in p4p ranks

[Boxed Ears]

Thats funny cause i think Ortiz,Chandler,JMM are underrated. Buchanan and Nelson at 130 maybe just a tad overrated. Morales,MAB,PAC are rated fairly IMO.

I also find JMM underrated. Great strength, great ring IQ, one of the best uppercuts in the business, chin and recuperative abilities are also elite. A lot of will. I think he and his people's management skills are as much to blame as anything with the underrating. ...Also, fucking JUDGES! ...Fucking judges...:twisted:...grumble....

[Rock0052]

I also find JMM underrated. Great strength, great ring IQ, one of the best uppercuts in the business, chin and recuperative abilities are also elite. A lot of will. I think he and his people's management skills are as much to blame as anything with the underrating. ...Also, fucking JUDGES! ...Fucking judges...:twisted:...grumble....

Hey now! Who are we to question the wisdom of a management team that sends their man to Indonesia to defend his title for $30,000?

[Addie]

I also find JMM underrated. Great strength, great ring IQ, one of the best uppercuts in the business, chin and recuperative abilities are also elite. A lot of will. I think he and his people's management skills are as much to blame as anything with the underrating. ...Also, fucking JUDGES! ...Fucking judges...:twisted:...grumble....

A good majority of people on ESB rate Marquez higher than both Barrera and Morales. Epic fail, unfortunately. :verysad

[Ezzard]

The most overrated tend to be current fighters and the recently retired. i.e. those people can still make money out of.

In my tme watching boxing I'd say it's Roy Jones and Mike Tyson.

That's not to say they weren't great fighters just that they are not as good as people claim.

[Boxed Ears]

A good majority of people on ESB rate Marquez higher than both Barrera and Morales. Epic fail, unfortunately. :verysad

I wouldn't condone rating him higher than Barrera or Morales. But because he doesn't have the accomplishments and resume of wins to go over those guys. However, I do see him as on the same level in a h2h sense, at least.

Edit: Oh, I see no rebuttal about Spinks' mustache. Guess he's not the ATG you thought he was, after all, ey?

[itrymariti]

Bob Foster
Carlos Monzon
Alexis Arguello
Lennox Lewis
Emile Griffith

Guys who aren't ATGs:
Lil' Nino
Felix Trinidad

[Addie]

Alexis Arguello


Greg "Pitter" Paterson: :|:emma:ibutt:rant:crybaby

[itrymariti]

Stop changing those fucking avatars Addie.

[Addie]

Stop changing those fucking avatars Addie.

I had too. Someone said the one previous depicted a little boy.

[SuzieQ49]

Bob Foster is not overrated.

[Addie]

Bob Foster is not overrated.

Agreed...just feather-fisted.

[PetethePrince]

Bob Foster
Carlos Monzon
Alexis Arguello
Lennox Lewis
Emile Griffith

Guys who aren't ATGs:
Lil' Nino
Felix Trinidad

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why from the bolded choices (Lewis, Arguello)

[janitor]

Fitzsimmons at HW


Hell no.

If Bob Fitzsimmons had been a 200lb fighter with an identical heavyweight record, he would be on most peoples top 20 all time heavyweight lists.

He not only cleaned out the top heavyweight contenders of his era, he brutaly destroyed them.

[SuzieQ49]

Too bad Fitz didn't take on a talented 6'6 Fighter like Denver Ed Martin. Would have really opened up my eyes to have seen him knockout Martin. Or even Frank Childs.

[janitor]

Too bad Fitz didn't take on a talented 6'6 Fighter like Denver Ed Martin. Would have really opened up my eyes to have seen him knockout Martin. Or even Frank Childs.

Martin tried to make a fight with Fitzsimmons after the second Jeffries Fitzsimmons fight.

Fitz declined because hewas making more money sparring with Jeffries than he was offered for Martin, and he probably knew that he would never be champion again.

[SuzieQ49]

If Bob Fitzsimmons had been a 200lb fighter with an identical heavyweight record, he would be on most peoples top 20 all time heavyweight lists.



Had he been 185lb, he could make a case for top 20. But something about being 160-165lb...just too damm light. Fitz was not known for his durability.

[janitor]

Had he been 185lb, he could make a case for top 20. But something about being 160-165lb...just too damm light. Fitz was not known for his durability.

I think that Fitz gets penalized in heavyweight rankings because of his size. When judging his resume it shouldnt theoreticaly matter.

I think he was fairly durable. He took shots from some big heavyweights and it was only really Jeffries who knocked him out before he was old and frail.

[Bad Dog]

In terms of HOW overrated they are, I choose Ali. 95% of people will tell you he was the greatest fighter ever which is untrue. He was great, very great, but not the greatest. He dropped a decision to Norton. He lost to Frazier. He was great but not in the class of the likes of Louis, Robinson etc.

[SuzieQ49]

When judging his resume it shouldnt theoreticaly matter.

Yes...but my rankings take into account both resume and H2H. I also think the corbett win is highly questionable because of the knockdown fitz suffered. He grabbed onto corbett on the way down delaying himself several seconds to recover.



I think he was fairly durable. He took shots from some big heavyweights .

Like who? Ed Dunkhorst? Gus Ruhlin? Millard Zender? Charles Puff? Abe Coughle?

and it was only really Jeffries who knocked him out before he was old and frail

Bill Hall knocked him out. Corbett had him down and out. I don't think his chin was weak, but it certainly was not a strong point no? Wasn't his whole style revolved around not getting hit? Sitting back and setting up one big countertrap shot?

[El Bujia]

In terms of HOW overrated they are, I choose Ali. 95% of people will tell you he was the greatest fighter ever which is untrue. He was great, very great, but not the greatest. He dropped a decision to Norton. He lost to Frazier. He was great but not in the class of the likes of Louis, Robinson etc.

And what of Louis being KO'd by Schmeling, being out-boxed the majority of the time against Lt. Heavyweight Billy Conn, and winning a very questionable decision against Walcott? You can point out these kinds of things on most any fighter's resume.

[janitor]

[quote=SuzieQ49;7415835]Yes...but my rankings take into account both resume and H2H.

Fair enough, but my argument was that Fitz had a top 20 all time resume.


I also think the corbett win is highly questionable because of the knockdown fitz suffered. He grabbed onto corbett on the way down delaying himself several seconds to recover.


Is this issue serious enough to call the outcome of the fight into question?

The most the referre would be expected to have done in that situation was seperate the fighters.


Like who? Ed Dunkhorst? Gus Ruhlin? Millard Zender? Charles Puff? Abe Coughle?


Fitzsimmons taunted Gus Ruhlin by holding his hands at his side and letting Ruhlin take swings at his chin. This leads me to think that he was fairly confident that he could take Ruhlins shots.


Bill Hall knocked him out. Corbett had him down and out. I don't think his chin was weak, but it certainly was not a strong point no? Wasn't his whole style revolved around not getting hit? Sitting back and setting up one big countertrap shot?


Yes but he worked to verry tight margins of error. He made his opponents miss by as little as possible hand had to risk taking a few shots to conduct business.

[choklab]

I dont think anyone would regard riddick bowe as an ATG but on size and h2h he apears undeservably high on heavyweight lists. I dont think bowe deserves to be rated no higher than buster douglas.

[El Bujia]

I dont think anyone would regard riddick bowe as an ATG but on size and h2h he apears undeservably high on heavyweight lists. I dont think bowe deserves to be rated no higher than buster douglas.Nonsense.

[bodhi]

^Most atgs from the early 80s to early/mid 90s. People who were kids back then grew up and idolize those fighters and thus they get overrated.
At the same time older fighters get underrated due to the people who saw them die.

[choklab]

Nonsense.

explain? you rate bowe high?

[Blood Green]

I think a good technical boxer would've eventually picked Pryor apart if he stayed around.

Hagler did what he had to when he was active, but I think he's a little overrated H2H.

Hearns was defensively weak and physically on the frail side for supposedly being one of the best ever H2H at welterweight.

[Brickhaus]

Pancho Villa. I've seen him in the top 50 on some lists, which seems ridiculous. A lot of the credit he gets, I feel, is because he died young and thus people think about what could have been, and he also gets credit for being a groundbreaker. But his best win came over an old Wilde, and other than that, he lost to all the great fighters he faced.

To a lesser extent, I think Sal Sanchez is a bit overrated for some of the same reasons, although he actually did beat a prime Gomez (while his other best wins came against guys long before or after their best).

[Swarmer]

we never got to see the full extent of what sanchez could do. if his career had continued he would have gone down as one of the goat featherweights easily, imo

[Addie]

we never got to see the full extent of what sanchez could do. if his career had continued he would have gone down as one of the goat featherweights easily, imo

Or he falls from grace similar to that of a Don Curry or Michael Nunn.

[Swarmer]

Or he falls from grace similar to that of a Don Curry or Michael Nunn.

it's always a chance, but sal had the goods, physical, mental, and skillwise. i believe in him and his ridiculous jew fro.

[El Bujia]

I don't think Sal would've had a much longer reign. Considering bouts with both Arguello and Pedroza were widely considered at the time, I think there's a very high probability he loses at least one of those. Who knows where his career would've gone from there? We'll never know the nature of the loss were it to come about, nor will we know what kind of affects they had on him. Keep in mind, most of the other young sensations all seemed to be the part mentally as well. I think a large part of the problem was that they simply peaked too young and couldn't hold onto it for the long haul, given the wear and tear/experience they'd already built up. Sal strikes me as a perfect candidate to continue this kind of legacy, given the types of fights he was in, what was on the horizon, and how polished he had already become as a fighter.

[Stevie G]

A post prison Tyson tends to be VERY overrated. Some people talk of even a 2002 version as an awesome fighter,who could beat anyone put in front of him.

[red cobra]

Bob Foster
Carlos Monzon
Alexis Arguello
Lennox Lewis
Emile Griffith

Guys who aren't ATGs:
Lil' Nino
Felix Trinidad
:rofl:rofl:rofl

[itrymariti]

being out-boxed the majority of the time against Lt. Heavyweight Billy Conn

That is a myth IMO

[itrymariti]

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why from the bolded choices (Lewis, Arguello)

Arguello - poor defence, slow getting off, slow, can't deal with lateral movement, limited skillset. Basically just a very, very hard, accurate puncher with good stamina. People picking him over Mayweather makes me scratch my head

Lewis - not as skilled as some make him out to be, vulnerable to people getting inside and his record is massively massively over-rated

[john garfield]

Would any of your opinions about Jones be different if he retired after beating Ruiz?

[itrymariti]

:rofl:rofl:rofl

Yes, unthinkable that any of these guys could be over-rated

[bodhi]

Would any of your opinions about Jones be different if he retired after beating Ruiz?

Not for me. It´s not about his losses but about him beeing relative unproven at the very top.

[Lampley]

I'm going with Dempsey, with Ali also in the mix due to sheer immortality he's granted by the casual boxing public.

[Lampley]

Not for me. It´s not about his losses but about him beeing relative unproven at the very top.


Really? Hopkins, Toney, a very long stretch of superlative dominance, then as a former 154 going up and beating a legitimate, durable HW contender.

There are certainly worse careers celebrated as being on a par or better than that of Jones.

[bodhi]

Really? Hopkins, Toney, a very long stretch of superlative dominance, then as a former 154 going up and beating a legitimate, durable HW contender.

There are certainly worse careers celebrated as being on a par or better than that of Jones.

I won´t get through all this again. I posted this like more than dozen times. Look it up. Compare his resume with that with greats he often is compared too. You will realize there is a gap in class.

[john garfield]

Not for me. It´s not about his losses but about him beeing relative unproven at the very top.

You're a tough man, b. Even after RJ near-blanked Ruiz, to be the first middleweight in 100 years to win the heavyweight crown?

[PetethePrince]

Arguello - poor defence, slow getting off, slow, can't deal with lateral movement, limited skillset. Basically just a very, very hard, accurate puncher with good stamina. People picking him over Mayweather makes me scratch my head

Lewis - not as skilled as some make him out to be, vulnerable to people getting inside and his record is massively massively over-rated

Thanks for the response. I rarely see Arguello get knocked much. How limited do you think his skillset is? Or is it possible that he was just a bit limited or not as versatile offensively as some make him out to be (Which doesn't neccessarily reflect just on skills, as it does other factors like athletic ability). Just a thought.

Lewis, was a pretty consistent fighter. Beating many top ranked fighters, more than most HW champions. I think his two KO losses against unworthy opposition in title fights should hit him harder in his legacy than it does for most people's mind. He was a great puncher, and I think he had a good arsenal along with technique for a big man. But you're very right about him being vulnerable to people getting on the inside, and he was notably inadequate with his in-fighting (Somewhat typical of Steward fighters to be frank). Can't disagree too much with the latter. The first example just surprises me a little.

[anarci]

Would any of your opinions about Jones be different if he retired after beating Ruiz? Yey actually they would even though he was past his prime when he was kod after, nobody would have been talking about his glass jaw. It makes you think what would have happened if matched against quality fighters who could punch Foster,Spinks etc etc all fighters who were as tall or taller than Tarver better and hit a lot harder. Many would be claiming him to be unbeateable even against the all time greats.

[john garfield]

Yey actually they would even though he was past his prime when he was kod after, nobody would have been talking about his glass jaw. It makes you think what would have happened if matched against quality fighters who could punch Foster,Spinks etc etc all fighters who were as tall or taller than Tarver better and hit a lot harder. Many would be claiming him to be unbeateable even against the all time greats.

If the queen had balls she'd be the king, a.

[Bokaj]

If the queen had balls she'd be the king, a.

What's your take on Jones, John, compared to other greats you've seen? I'm not talking record here, just how he looked in the ring.