Monte Cox: Top 50

[Addie]

Sugar Ray Robinson
Muhammad Al
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Joe Louis
Willie Pep
Roberto Duran
Benny Leonard
Sam Langford
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Joe Gans
Sugar Ray Leonard
Gene Tunney
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jimmy Wilde
Ezzard Charles
Mickey Walker
Archie Moore
Stanley Ketchel
George Foreman
Tony Canzoneri
Barney Ross
Jimmy McLarnin
Julio Cesar Chavez
Marcel Cerdan
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Sandy Saddler
Terry McGovern
Billy Conn
Carlos Monzon
Jose Napoles
Emile Griffith
Marvin Hagler
Eder Jofre
Thomas Hearns
Larry Holmes
Ruben Olivares
Evander Holyfield
Ted "Kid" Lewis
Alexis Arguello
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones Jr.
Bernard Hopkins
Mike Tyson
Barbados Joe Walcott
George Dixon
Mike Spinks
Salvador Sanchez

That list is in order and the main topic of discussion I want to bring up is why is there such a devide in a opinion regarding Pernell Whitaker? He's a superstar on the Classic Forum, and most people draw the line at him being one place below the great Sugar Ray Leonard, whereas guys like Monte Cox and Teddy Atlas have him down in the lower 40's. Is it simply because we tend to overrate fighters of our own era? Discuss the greatness of Pernell.

My thoughts on the list are as follows.

Too low - Michael Spinks, Joe Walcott, Pernell Whitaker, Alexis Arguello
Too High - Julio Cesar Chavez, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Larry Holmes
Shouldn't be on the list - Mike Tyson

[asero]

jofre is in the rightful spot

monzon, sweet pea, hagler, charles and moore too low..

frazier,wilde, dixon, dempsey and cerdan too high

[anarci]

Just glancing at the list for about a minute, the first ones to be out of place were

Too Low
Chavez
Charles
Spinks
Hagler



Too High
Ketchel
Cerdan
Fraizer

Also where the Hell is Ricardo Lopez!!

[anarci]

Okay some more
Way too high
Dempsey

High
Canzoneri
Tunney Atg but a little high

Way too low
Pernell Whittaker

Low
Barbadoes joe walcott





And Oscar Delahoya should definitly be on this list.

[Addie]

Just glancing at the list for about a minute, the first ones to be out of place were

Too Low
Chavez
Charles
Spinks
Hagler



Too High
Ketchel
Cerdan
Fraizer

Also where the Hell is Ricardo Lopez!!

He wouldn't make Monte's top 150...

Let this Lopez thing go matey, you overrate him to the same extent Rooster overrates Norris.

Only just noticed Dempsey. He's way to high, indeed.

[anarci]

He wouldn't make Monte's top 150...

Let this Lopez thing go matey, you overrate him to the same extent Rooster overrates Norris.

Only just noticed Dempsey. He's way to high, indeed.
Barreras my boy too,but hey i got Lopez over him Lopez should be between 25-35. Even a great boxing publication like Sports illustrated put him 10:lol: Serious though they did.

[Addie]

Barreras my boy too,but hey i got Lopez over him Lopez should be between 25-35. Even a great boxing publication like Sports illustrated put him 10:lol: Serious though they did.

Barrera taps Lopez's ass ****** style. :lol:

Seriously though, back to the list, I'm scratching my head at having Mike Tyson on the list. Did he ever beat a great prime fighter? He had 5 years of domination and could never rekindle the same form after the initial loss. ...Mike would be at a lower end of a top 100 for me.

[konaman]

Addie, there is clearly a nostalgic emphasis on heavyweights, which probably explains your question about Pernell Whitaker's position to some to degree. JCC's positioning well above Whitaker says a lot about the credibility of Pernell's placement as well. Having someone like Bernard right next to Whitaker raises a lot of questions, beating lesser opposition, many of which naturally smaller, and ending up 2 spots below Pernell.

[anarci]

I think Mikes place is about right. I see your point of view also, but Mike was an unstoppable force when he was in his prime,and I dont think you can honestly count on one hand a fighther with a combination of SPeed,Power,and Ferociousness,in any weight class not just heavyweight.

[Addie]

I think Mikes place is about right. I see your point of view also, but Mike was an unstoppable force when he was in his prime,and I dont think you can honestly count on one hand a fighther with a combination of SPeed,Power,and Ferociousness,in any weight class not just heavyweight.

A fighter who didn't have the capacity to overcome adversity despite being faced with it plenty of times...cannot be among the top 50 for me. His resume and longevity doesn't even give him a fighting chance here, the two best fighters he ever fought beat him, and the HW scene was ghastly during his domination. Later on Lewis, Bowe, and Holyfield would emerge...and Tyson was nowhere to be seen.

[anarci]

Good point on Tyson but im sticking with Him as a 45to 50 Atg.

Back to the rankings
Johnson a little high
Foreman way high

[anarci]

He should of squeezed Kid Gavilan in there

[Boxed Ears]

You see enough of these lists, you get to realize just how subjective they are.

[sweet_scientist]

I'd want to see his criteria before criticizing his list, but according to my own criteria, it's a pretty unjustifiable effort.

[PetethePrince]

Sugar Ray Robinson
Muhammad Al
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Joe Louis
Willie Pep
Roberto Duran
Benny Leonard
Sam Langford
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Joe Gans
Sugar Ray Leonard
Gene Tunney
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jimmy Wilde
Ezzard Charles
Mickey Walker
Archie Moore
Stanley Ketchel
George Foreman
Tony Canzoneri
Barney Ross
Jimmy McLarnin
Julio Cesar Chavez
Marcel Cerdan
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Sandy Saddler
Terry McGovern
Billy Conn
Carlos Monzon
Jose Napoles
Emile Griffith
Marvin Hagler
Eder Jofre
Thomas Hearns
Larry Holmes
Ruben Olivares
Evander Holyfield
Ted "Kid" Lewis
Alexis Arguello
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones Jr.
Bernard Hopkins
Mike Tyson
Barbados Joe Walcott
George Dixon
Mike Spinks
Salvador Sanchez

That list is in order and the main topic of discussion I want to bring up is why is there such a devide in a opinion regarding Pernell Whitaker? He's a superstar on the Classic Forum, and most people draw the line at him being one place below the great Sugar Ray Leonard, whereas guys like Monte Cox and Teddy Atlas have him down in the lower 40's. Is it simply because we tend to overrate fighters of our own era? Discuss the greatness of Pernell.

My thoughts on the list are as follows.

Too low - Michael Spinks, Joe Walcott, Pernell Whitaker, Alexis Arguello
Too High - Julio Cesar Chavez, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Larry Holmes
Shouldn't be on the list - Mike Tyson

It's a pretty good list. Where's Teddy Atlas' list?

[Rise Above]

As someone said earlier, these lists are very subjective.

Personally I think Ali, Cerdan and Ketchel are too high.

Moore, Charles and Barbados Joe Walcott are too low.

In fact this list has inspired me to finally get back to compiling my own list.

[Boom_Boom]

Whitaker's resume is most likely the drawing line as to why he gets ranked so low on some of these lists. Its a great resume no doubt, but lacking of that one huge win, even though he arguably has wins over the big stars on his resume (DLH,JCC). Personally, Whitaker is 10-15 on my list, and sometimes I try to squeeze him at top 10 if I feel like it. His high ranking from me has really little to do with his resume and more to the fact that hes the ATG H2H fighter for me.

[TommyV]

At a quick glance, IMO:

Too low:

Sam Langford (Top 4 lock), Ezzard Charles (Top 6/7 lock), Barney Ross (Top 15 lock), Carlos Monzon (Top 30 lock), Pernell Whitaker (Top 30 lock), Roy Jones Jr (Top 30 lock), Barbados Joe Walcott (Top 25 lock), Michael Spinks (Top 35/40),

Too high:

Jack Johnson (Over-rated again like Dempsey, shouldn't be here), Jack Dempsey (Hilarious. Shouldn't be here) , Stanley Ketchel (I think 20 is too high, at least 10 places lower for me), George Foreman (Probably shouldn't be here, if he is it's at the bottom end), Marcel Cerdan(Shouldn't be here), Rocky Marciano (Way too high, should he even be on here either), Joe Frazier (My favourite all-time fighter, but too high), Billy Conn (30 is a little too high for me, I'd have him in the 40's at best), Mike Tyson (Shouldn't be on here)

[Mantequilla]

I've never agreed with Monte's analysis much, though i respect him of course.Writes some great articles on fighters he has an interest in but that's where it ends for me.

Too much of the "feinting is a long lost art etc" mindset for me.

[Duodenum]

Cox seems to have factored in impact on the sport as one of his criteria. That would help explain why he has so many heavyweights hanging around the top of his list. Delete the career long heavyweights (which can leave Charles, Tunney and Fitz remaining) from his selection, and you have a pretty reasonable P4P ranking order.

[China_hand_Joe]

Has anyone ever watched Jimmy Wilde's footwork? :lol:

[redrooster]

Sugar Ray Robinson
Muhammad Al
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Joe Louis
Willie Pep
Roberto Duran
Benny Leonard
Sam Langford
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Joe Gans
Sugar Ray Leonard
Gene Tunney
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jimmy Wilde
Ezzard Charles
Mickey Walker
Archie Moore
Stanley Ketchel
George Foreman
Tony Canzoneri
Barney Ross
Jimmy McLarnin
Julio Cesar Chavez
Marcel Cerdan
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Sandy Saddler
Terry McGovern
Billy Conn
Carlos Monzon
Jose Napoles
Emile Griffith
Marvin Hagler
Eder Jofre
Thomas Hearns
Larry Holmes
Ruben Olivares
Evander Holyfield
Ted "Kid" Lewis
Alexis Arguello
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones Jr.
Bernard Hopkins
Mike Tyson
Barbados Joe Walcott
George Dixon
Mike Spinks
Salvador Sanchez




:nut

[ChrisPontius]

It never ceases to amaze, or amuse me, that Jack Dempsey is rated #11 or thereabouts, because he beat a 37 year old, overweight champion who merely held the title because of unlimited number of rounds, who never beat anyone of note otherwise, but happened to have a 50 lbs weight advantage.

Hell, Dempsey might not even be top10 in the heavyweight division, but he's #11 when the talent pool is literally multiplied by a factor of 10? :lol: Name me top30, no, anyone from that top50 list who did a more blatant job of ducking the #1 contender for 7 years. Or someone who never beat the best heavyweights AND lightheavyweights of his time?

[GPater11093]

Just been reading some Cox as i have never really read him before, like Mante says he is abit old fashioned. And by god does he love Robinson and not like Ali.

[GPater11093]

Just reading though another Cox article about the IBRO top 25 which is

# Sugar Ray Robinson



# Harry Greb


# Henry Armstrong



# Muhammad Ali


# Joe Louis



# Sam Langford


# Roberto Duran



# Benny Leonard


# Willie Pep


# Bob Fitzsimmons



# Joe Gans

# Ezzard Charles



# Ray Leonard



# Jimmy Wilde


# Eder Jofre


# Mickey Walker


# Archie Moore


# Jack Dempsey


# Jack Johnson



# Gene Tunney


# Stanley Ketchel


# Barbados Joe Walcott


# Rocky Marciano


# Tony Canzoneri


Barney Ross

This is Cox's comments at the bottom, so obviously his lists change from time to time

My personal top 25 varied a little leaving off a couple of the heavyweights in the lower portion of the list and included Alexis Arguello, Thomas Hearns and Julio Cesar Chavez.

[Flea Man]

Any top 50 that doesn't include Gavilan is preposterous, despite any of the other placings being decent

[Dempsey1238]

I personal dont think Jones Jr is a lock for 15.

[Blood Green]

If Cox is this fond of heavyweights, where the hell is Lennox Lewis on the list?

[Duodenum]

It never ceases to amaze, or amuse me, that Jack Dempsey is rated #11 or thereabouts, because he beat a 37 year old, overweight champion who merely held the title because of unlimited number of rounds, who never beat anyone of note otherwise, but happened to have a 50 lbs weight advantage.

Hell, Dempsey might not even be top 10 in the heavyweight division, but he's #11 when the talent pool is literally multiplied by a factor of 10? :lol: Name me top 30, no, anyone from that top 50 list who did a more blatant job of ducking the #1 contender for 7 years. Or someone who never beat the best heavyweights AND light heavyweights of his time?This is why I speculated that Cox is using impact on boxing (and social influence) as one of his criteria. He has Jack Johnson ahead of Dempsey, and Ali only behind Robby. I have a very hard time accepting heavyweights for top ten P4P consideration, no matter how good. I don't buy Dempsey over Gans (and neither did Dempsey admirer Langford), nor do I buy Louis over Pep, Duran or the Leonard boys. It's just one person's subjective opinion though, not a surveyed consensus.

[Duodenum]

If Cox is this fond of heavyweights, where the hell is Lennox Lewis on the list?He might share my 15 round bigotry, or the same sharp disdain for the nature of Lennox's one punch defeats. It also bears endless repeating that he completely omitted Gavilan, a weird absence for a historian supposedly so biased towards old timers.

[Frazier Hook]

Sugar Ray Robinson
Muhammad Al
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Joe Louis
Willie Pep
Roberto Duran
Benny Leonard
Sam Langford
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Joe Gans
Sugar Ray Leonard
Gene Tunney
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jimmy Wilde
Ezzard Charles
Mickey Walker
Archie Moore
Stanley Ketchel
George Foreman
Tony Canzoneri
Barney Ross
Jimmy McLarnin
Julio Cesar Chavez
Marcel Cerdan
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Sandy Saddler
Terry McGovern
Billy Conn
Carlos Monzon
Jose Napoles
Emile Griffith
Marvin Hagler
Eder Jofre
Thomas Hearns
Larry Holmes
Ruben Olivares
Evander Holyfield
Ted "Kid" Lewis
Alexis Arguello
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones Jr.
Bernard Hopkins
Mike Tyson
Barbados Joe Walcott
George Dixon
Mike Spinks
Salvador Sanchez

That list is in order and the main topic of discussion I want to bring up is why is there such a devide in a opinion regarding Pernell Whitaker? He's a superstar on the Classic Forum, and most people draw the line at him being one place below the great Sugar Ray Leonard, whereas guys like Monte Cox and Teddy Atlas have him down in the lower 40's. Is it simply because we tend to overrate fighters of our own era? Discuss the greatness of Pernell.

My thoughts on the list are as follows.

Too low - Michael Spinks, Joe Walcott, Pernell Whitaker, Alexis Arguello
Too High - Julio Cesar Chavez, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Larry Holmes
Shouldn't be on the list - Mike Tyson

Too Low- Walcott, Dixon, Monzon, Fitzsimmons, Whitaker, Arguello, Holyfield, Marciano,

Too High-Tyson, Hearns, Foreman, Dempsey, Frazier,

[Beeston Brawler]

I'd hardly say the ESB forum overrates fighters from our era, Addie.

In fact, I'd say exactly the opposite. Some of the bias that seems to be shown toward fighters from previous eras surprises me.

[Flea Man]

Am I the only one who thinks in a top 100, Louis>Ray Leonard?

[Addie]

I'd hardly say the ESB forum overrates fighters from our era, Addie.

In fact, I'd say exactly the opposite. Some of the bias that seems to be shown toward fighters from previous eras surprises me.

Point taken. I think there's two fighters in the Classic who are protected to a large degree. Whitaker and Duran. They are the overwhelming favorites.

And Fleaman, I've seldom seen a P4P top 100 having Louis below Leonard, even if I do think Ray was more complete and had better top tier wins.

[Mantequilla]

I think the forum tends to go through cycles where different fighters have a lot of appreciation or focus on them...Canizales and lora a few months ago.Yuh recently etc...

All-time greats like Duran, Whitaker, the Sugars etc... will always have a lot of favour, but i think this is generally a pretty good forum for getting good debates that are outside of the usual fare going and respecting possible underdogs etc..

Put it this way, i reckon that here, you would get a much more considered or in-depth debate\reply here if you asked something like if there were any possiblities of Barrera ranking above Olivares, or someone good, bbut not acknowledged as an all-timer like McCallum being able to beat Dick tiger than you would on most other boxing forums i've read.It's not nearly as biased or safe as the cbz(barring 2 or 3 good posters) a has a better knowledge base/traffic level balance than any other boxing forum classic sections.

[Addie]

I think the forum tends to go through cycles where different fighters have a lot of appreciation or focus on them...Canizales and lora a few months ago.Yuh recently etc...


I instigated the whole thing regarding Canizales and Yuh. It's not in the same vein as Whitaker and Duran, who are overwhelming favorites on Classic all year round. Nothing else to be said about it really, there was a thread asking for the Classic's top 5 fighters and no kidding, 85% of replies had either Duran, Whitaker, or both there.

All-time greats like Duran, Whitaker, the Sugars etc... will always have a lot of favour, but i think this is generally a pretty good forum for getting good debates that are outside of the usual fare going and respecting possible underdogs etc..

Sugar Ray Leonard does not have a lot of favor, but it's a wonderful forum. I love it in the Classic...it's educational.

[Mantequilla]

Nah, there was a Canizales phase before i remember you posting on here.Your one was the second wave of Canizales;).

I think Ray does have a lot of fans, he just seems to have the most idiotic trolls against him as well.

[Addie]

Nah, there was a Canizales phase before i remember you posting on here.Your one was the second wave of Canizales;).

I think Ray does have a lot of fans, he just seems to have the most idiotic trolls against him as well.

There's a clear distinction between how Duran and Whitaker are viewed on here than any other fighter in history in my view.

[he grant]

Excellent posts by Rise Above and Tommy V ...

Ali too high
Tunney too high
Pep too high
Ketchel too high
Hearns too high
Marciano too high
Dempsey way too high ...
Foreman too high ...
Cerdan seems too high ..

Langford way too low ...
Holmes, Spinks, Tyson, Walcott too low ..
Charles too low ...
Whitaker way too low ...
Monzon too low ..
Gans too low ..

Charley Burley ?

[GPater11093]

There's a clear distinction between how Duran and Whitaker are viewed on here than any other fighter in history in my view.

I think they are thought of highly definitly but i do think people are knowledgeable enough not to have a massive bias etc.. Like we are not seeing Whittaker in any top ten P4P lists which would be ridiculous but we are seeing him rightfulkly in a top 30 slot. People just admire his skills more than others same with Duran.

[trampie]

At a quick glance, IMO:

Too low:

Sam Langford (Top 4 lock), Ezzard Charles (Top 6/7 lock), Barney Ross (Top 15 lock), Carlos Monzon (Top 30 lock), Pernell Whitaker (Top 30 lock), Roy Jones Jr (Top 30 lock), Barbados Joe Walcott (Top 25 lock), Michael Spinks (Top 35/40),

Too high:

Jack Johnson (Over-rated again like Dempsey, shouldn't be here), Jack Dempsey (Hilarious. Shouldn't be here) , Stanley Ketchel (I think 20 is too high, at least 10 places lower for me), George Foreman (Probably shouldn't be here, if he is it's at the bottom end), Marcel Cerdan(Shouldn't be here), Rocky Marciano (Way too high, should he even be on here either), Joe Frazier (My favourite all-time fighter, but too high), Billy Conn (30 is a little too high for me, I'd have him in the 40's at best), Mike Tyson (Shouldn't be on here)

Im surprissed you did not stop reading after reaching #10 :lol:

[anarci]

As someone said earlier, these lists are very subjective.

Personally I think Ali, Cerdan and Ketchel are too high.

Moore, Charles and Barbados Joe Walcott are too low.

In fact this list has inspired me to finally get back to compiling my own list.
Agreed on all except I would have Ali only a few notches lower like around 5

[anarci]

I'd hardly say the ESB forum overrates fighters from our era, Addie.

In fact, I'd say exactly the opposite. Some of the bias that seems to be shown toward fighters from previous eras surprises me. Agreed i have some of the modern greats a lot higher than others on this forum.

[McGrain]

Nah, there was a Canizales phase before i remember you posting on here.Your one was the second wave of Canizales;).


Yeah, I remember going a little bonkers for Orlando in early 2008. Pea and a couple of others were creaming for him around the same time, I seem to remember you being rather enthusiastic.

[Sweet Pea]

Yeah, I remember going a little bonkers for Orlando in early 2008. Pea and a couple of others were creaming for him around the same time, I seem to remember you being rather enthusiastic.Whatever fighter Mantequilla reps, I take a look into. I trust his opinion more than pretty much any other on this forum. His technical analysis is second to none. Probably matched by none, though you yourself are probably the best poster all around. I'm drunk right now so I'm in a good mood, you'll have to forgive me.

[anarci]

Whatever fighter Mantequilla reps, I take a look into. I trust his opinion more than pretty much any other on this forum. His technical analysis is second to none. Probably matched by none, though you yourself are probably the best poster all around. I'm drunk right now so I'm in a good mood, you'll have to forgive me. Yey i thought you were about to say "I love you Man":lol:

[McGrain]

Whatever fighter Mantequilla reps, I take a look into. I trust his opinion more than pretty much any other on this forum. His technical analysis is second to none. Probably matched by none, though you yourself are probably the best poster all around. I'm drunk right now so I'm in a good mood, you'll have to forgive me.


:lol:

yeah i think i can find it in my heart to forgive you

[Flea Man]

Yep, Mantequilla and McGrain have serious talent in analysis.

[Sweet Pea]

Whatever fighter Mantequilla reps, I take a look into. I trust his opinion more than pretty much any other on this forum. His technical analysis is second to none. Probably matched by none, though you yourself are probably the best poster all around. I'm drunk right now so I'm in a good mood, you'll have to forgive me.Ahhhhh.....

[McGrain]

:lol:

[Mantequilla]

:good