Tommy Burns fighting today...

[GregDempsey]

Ok we get a time machine...grab tommy burns..and have him fight....how well does he do? at what level does he win...at what level does he lose. I know that before the Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey era, boxing was different, those guy's really changed it, and I feel that it is unfair to compare guys from before the Johnson-Dempsey era to our fighters today..having said that..I have seen to plenty of club fights..and have seen fighters on ESPN, who i feel confident would lose to Burns if they had to fight him. Anyhow, my question just is, how well does burns do...here is some pretty clear burns footage.

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of course he was the shortest heavyweight champ ever at 5"7...his weight was 180, reach 74.5, chest normal was 40, expanded 43.5, waist 33, biceps 14.5, neck 16, wrist 7.25 calf 16.5, ankle 8.5, thigh 22, fist 12, forearm 13

clearly smaller then most heavyweights...to compare him to arthur abraham, he is 5"10, 16 neck, 16 biceps, 72 inch reach, 7.5 wrist, 38 normal chest, 43 expanded, 35 waist, 24 thigh, calf, 15, ankle 11, ..of course he fights at 168 now, but these measurements where likely not taken when he was dried out for the weigh in..and he himself may have been a good 180 when these measurments where taken, and he likely weights about 180 on the actual fight night....so how about this question....how does tommy do aggenst King Arthur?

[Boxed Ears]

Wow. I wouldn't even have thought to put the two together. I read that Burns was 5'9 also. I've seen him listed as 5'7 and 5'9. And 5'8. Of course I've seen Ali listed as 6'2, 6'3 and strangely 6'4. How hard is it to take someone's definitive height?

[GPater11093]

its a bit harsh getting teh guy to fight on New Years day

[GregDempsey]

its a bit harsh getting teh guy to fight on New Years day


well we will go back in time and grab him right before the marvin hart fight..it wont be new years day for him...i will get the delorian ready..of course we have to make sure king arthur isnt drunk off his ass....

[djanders]

I say he would beat Arthur, and then he would clean out the Cruiserweight Division, and then he would ask to be sent back so he could take the Heavyweight belt from Hart.

Happy New Year!

[joe33]

Damn thats an impressive KO, some very hard shots there, burns looked really good, and i can imagine he was one hard fucker, love how they just stood there waiting over the guy on the floor to see if he can get up haha

[punk]

Does Burns get thrown straight in? Or does he get a chance to work with a top class trainer and prepare for his fight?

[janitor]

Burns is one of the best infighters I have seen on film and his power was incredible for a fighter of his size. I think his style would work verry well today with little or no modification.

With todays miriad of titles and weight classes, combined with todays training methods, he would be able to fight in any division from middleweight to heavyweigh as proved prudent.

Taking the above considerations into account I have to conclude that he would almost certainly have enjoyed considerable success, and that we would likley be looking at a multiple weight division champion.

[mcvey]

Burns is one of the best infighters I have seen on film and his power was incredible for a fighter of his size. I think his style would work verry well today with little or no modification.

With todays miriad of titles and weight classes, combined with todays training methods, he would be able to fight in any division from middleweight to heavyweigh as proved prudent.

Taking the above considerations into account I have to conclude that he would almost certainly have enjoyed considerable success, and that we would likley be looking at a multiple weight division champion.

I agree with you,Burns was very mobile ,quick on his feet , evasive and hard hitting,I fancy his chances against Ketchel.
Burns could have been a double title holder anyway ,because when he fought O Brien for the Heavy crown ,both men scaled inside the Light Heavy limit , so he could legitmately have claimed that title.

[janitor]

Burns could have been a double title holder anyway ,because when he fought O Brien for the Heavy crown ,both men scaled inside the Light Heavy limit , so he could legitmately have claimed that title.

If Burns had claimed the LHW title I would suggest:

A. That his claim would almost certainly have been accepted.

and

B. That this would have increased his standing among modern fans.

[Hookie]

Burns was a good overall fighter He had success from WW-HW. In todays game I'd imagine he'd do well at WW, JMW, MW, SMW, LHW, and CW.
I've seen him listed at 5'7" most of the time. His reach is mostly listed at 74'... which is a pretty long reach considering how tall he was (Holyfield's is 77 1/2" and he is 6'2 1/2" BTW).
His reach was longer than Charles', Marciano's, Patterson's, Frazier's, Tyson's, Roy Jones', and James Toney's among others.
He had good speed and power. He was well conditioned, had a good chin, and recovered from punishment well. He went the 20 round distance several times and remained active thruout. Sure, Jack Johnson beat him convincingly but there is no shame in that.
43-5-9 (34) overall and 13-1-1 (11) in HW World Title fights. He also went 0-1-2 in MW World Title Fights... he did win the Michigan State and Pacific Coast MW titles.

[GregDempsey]

Burns was a good overall fighter He had success from WW-HW. In todays game I'd imagine he'd do well at WW, JMW, MW, SMW, LHW, and CW.
I've seen him listed at 5'7" most of the time. His reach is mostly listed at 74'... which is a pretty long reach considering how tall he was (Holyfield's is 77 1/2" and he is 6'2 1/2" BTW).
His reach was longer than Charles', Marciano's, Patterson's, Frazier's, Tyson's, Roy Jones', and James Toney's among others.
He had good speed and power. He was well conditioned, had a good chin, and recovered from punishment well. He went the 20 round distance several times and remained active thruout. Sure, Jack Johnson beat him convincingly but there is no shame in that.
43-5-9 (34) overall and 13-1-1 (11) in HW World Title fights. He also went 0-1-2 in MW World Title Fights... he did win the Michigan State and Pacific Coast MW titles.

good information....thanks

[janitor]

Burns was a good overall fighter He had success from WW-HW. In todays game I'd imagine he'd do well at WW, JMW, MW, SMW, LHW, and CW.

I don't know if he would ever have been able to make welterweight or juniour middle.

He was looking to contest the title at middleweight before he got a crack at Hart but making the weight would have been hard for him.

I am prepared to assume that he could have made middleweight today, and that he would not have needed to use weights to make cruiserweight.

[GregDempsey]

I don't know if he would ever have been able to make welterweight or juniour middle.

He was looking to contest the title at middleweight before he got a crack at Hart but making the weight would have been hard for him.

I am prepared to assume that he could have made middleweight today, and that he would not have needed to use weights to make cruiserweight.
well i think he could have made 160 with no problem..lose a bit of fat...and as long as its not a same day weigh in (which they arent now of course) he can come into the ring at 175 no problem...he knocks pavliks head off his shoulders.

[Hookie]

I don't know if he would ever have been able to make welterweight or juniour middle.

He was looking to contest the title at middleweight before he got a crack at Hart but making the weight would have been hard for him.

I am prepared to assume that he could have made middleweight today, and that he would not have needed to use weights to make cruiserweight.


Very true... he was still solid at 175-180Lbs. I just meant that at one point he was a WW... actually he started at LW!

I think he'd fit in well at SMW and LHW though. As for Arthur Abraham? Who knows but Burns has more experience vs. bigger men. Abraham has fought a few fights at 168, the rest of his pro bouts have been at 160. Burns definately fought taller men with longer reaches. He's also fought bigger, stronger, and harder punching men.

As much as I like Abraham, I'd have to favor Burns... at least on paper.

[janitor]

well i think he could have made 160 with no problem..lose a bit of fat...and as long as its not a same day weigh in (which they arent now of course) he can come into the ring at 175 no problem...he knocks pavliks head off his shoulders.

Regarding the "same day weigh in" rule, it is important to not that there were a lot of ways round it (see the McGovern thread).

I don't think that every old timer would necisarily be a ble to drop a weight class today.

Having said that, I agree that 160lbs for Burns should be doable. So after he takes out Kelly Pavlik we can go after the winner of the super six. Then we will go after Dawson or Admek.

[mcvey]

I don't know if he would ever have been able to make welterweight or juniour middle.

He was looking to contest the title at middleweight before he got a crack at Hart but making the weight would have been hard for him.

I am prepared to assume that he could have made middleweight today, and that he would not have needed to use weights to make cruiserweight.

Burns is recorded as scaling 168lbs for both Jack Johnson and Jem Roche.
He actually had a longer reach than Johnson.

[Seamus]

Noah is a very underrated fighter. I tend to buy the argument that he was in fact sick for the Johnson fight, though I don't see him winning regardless.

Today, he gets beat by every champ from Paq up to Vitali.

[janitor]

Burns is recorded as scaling 168lbs for both Jack Johnson and Jem Roche.
He actually had a longer reach than Johnson.

He was in negotiations to fight Tommy Ryan at a limit of 158lbs when he got the call from Hart.

I suspect that a future Pollack biography about Burns might turn up a few interesting snippets.

[mattdonnellon]

Burns was very clever and calculating, perhaps one of the most underated fighters of all. You dont beat O'Brien easily and hammer Flynn and a bunch of British/Irish champs and hang with Kelly, Schreck, and Twin Sullivan without class. Pelkey was a top contender when a semi-retired Burns handed him his ass. And Hart was a very solid performer. Here was a guy who would adapt to any era/any weight class-a true out-and-out athlete.

[janitor]

Pelkey was a top contender when a semi-retired Burns handed him his ass.

I think that this is the most interesting part of the post.

[mattdonnellon]

He floored Pelkey 3 times, was down once himself and forced the action. Reporters felt he won the ND affair and would have won a longer contest.

[Johnstown]

Burns all the way

[burt bienstock]

Burns was very clever and calculating, perhaps one of the most underated fighters of all. You dont beat O'Brien easily and hammer Flynn and a bunch of British/Irish champs and hang with Kelly, Schreck, and Twin Sullivan without class. Pelkey was a top contender when a semi-retired Burns handed him his ass. And Hart was a very solid performer. Here was a guy who would adapt to any era/any weight class-a true out-and-out athlete.
And a great right hand puncher, accurate and powerful....

[Seamus]

Was there ever any consideration of a Burns-Johnson rematch?

[Johnstown]

Was there ever any consideration of a Burns-Johnson rematch?
Johnson owned him so totally that i dont think so...not that i have ever heard of....

[Senya13]

I just meant that at one point he was a WW... actually he started at LW!
Burns was called a middleweight from the very beginning (as early as April 1902), a 150-pounder, weighing between 152 and 158 pounds during his first two years in the ring.

[Seamus]

Johnson owned him so totally that i dont think so...not that i have ever heard of....

There was the contention made by some that Burns was an ill man for their bout, evidenced by his light weight of 168. I suspect Burns knew that even in his best shape he was no match for Johnson (though a few men of equal size gave Johnson all he could handle). But give him credit at least, he got in the ring with Johnson... finally.

[Senya13]

Oh, and before somebody says he started two years earlier and could have been lw or ww during that time, I highly doubt it. Fred Thornton bout took place in Jan 1902 (1900 is clearly a dupe with same result), Billy Walsh in Feb (ditto for 1901), George Steele in March (same), Ed Sholtreau KO1 in April (not a W10).