Actor on set of Big Boss confirmed a fight with Bruce Lee with a thaiboxer

[Canibus81]

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[achillesthegreat]

There are loads of stories of Lee beating amateur boxers, thai guys etc He trained so much that I'm sure he could do some good things. He clearly had a decent amount of talent as he was fast and agile. However I don't think he could beat the best i.e. MMA today would play with him.

I'd compare him to Cung Le. Great kicks, awful hands, weak grappling and without the real experience of facing true mixed martial arts or even the best of combat styles i.e. kick boxing.

All the guards he uses I think are ineffective. Alot of his sequences are for show and someone like BJ would fuck him up.

Lee is a physical specimen though and has inspired great fighters - Sugar Ray Leonard, BJ Penn etc... but then again so has rocky.

[Dynamite Kid]

Bruce lee sent a Judo Champion flying into the wall with 1 kick. The man was EXTREMELY powerful. His I.Q. on fighting and him mastering the human body the way he did would have been to much for any opponent IMO. Bruce Lee didn't have to have pro fights to have proven himself. He's considered the greatest Martial Artist of the 20th century.

You don't get that label by being a sucker. His teaching's and philosphy's are still relevant today. He's still being studied by millions (including myself) and also many fighters. Jeet Kune Do is very difficult and not everyone can master it. Fighters like Luke Cummo & Ben Saunders study it. BJ Penn is a great fighter, but I would never wanna see him with a Bruce Lee (fantasy speaking of course) BJ would get kicked in his leg then punched in his face faster than he can say "Just Scrap" then he'd be unconscious. Comparing a fictional character like Rocky to Bruce Lee is absolutely absurd.

[196osh]

BJ Penn is a great fighter, but I would never wanna see him with a Bruce Lee (fantasy speaking of course) BJ would get kicked in his leg then punched in his face faster than he can say "Just Scrap" then he'd be unconscious. .


:rofl:rofl:rofl

[196osh]

BJ would beat the fuck out of Bruce. The absolute crap out of him. Takedown ground and pound followed by whatever submission he desires.

[Dynamite Kid]

BJ would beat the fuck out of Bruce. The absolute crap out of him. Takedown ground and pound followed by whatever submission he desires.

That's your opinion and I respect that. It's wrong but I still respect it:thumbsup

[achillesthegreat]

Bruce lee sent a Judo Champion flying into the wall with 1 kick. The man was EXTREMELY powerful. His I.Q. on fighting and him mastering the human body the way he did would have been to much for any opponent IMO. Bruce Lee didn't have to have pro fights to have proven himself. He's considered the greatest Martial Artist of the 20th century.

You don't get that label by being a sucker. His teaching's and philosphy's are still relevant today. He's still being studied by millions (including myself) and also many fighters. Jeet Kune Do is very difficult and not everyone can master it. Fighters like Luke Cummo & Ben Saunders study it. BJ Penn is a great fighter, but I would never wanna see him with a Bruce Lee (fantasy speaking of course) BJ would get kicked in his leg then punched in his face faster than he can say "Just Scrap" then he'd be unconscious. Comparing a fictional character like Rocky to Bruce Lee is absolutely absurd.

:lol: puff puff pass that shit on.

[Dynamite Kid]

:lol: puff puff pass that shit on.

You have your opinion and I have mine.

[196osh]

That's your opinion and I respect that. It's wrong but I still respect it:thumbsup


Ditto. :good

[achillesthegreat]

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Lee's grappling isn't in the same stratosphere as BJ's. If he keeps it standing BJ's boxing alone would dominate Lee's stand up. BJ's chin is too strong and his punch too powerful for the fight to go long. That's not even taking into account that BJ's hands are FAR superior to Lee's.

[Dynamite Kid]

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Lee's grappling isn't in the same stratosphere as BJ's. If he keeps it standing BJ's boxing alone would dominate Lee's stand up. BJ's chin is too strong and his punch too powerful for the fight to go long. That's not even taking into account that BJ's hands are FAR superior to Lee's.

:lol:

That statement right there is proof you don't know shit about Lee. Bruce loved to Box. He studied many Boxers. Jeet Kune Do was a mixture of alot of techniques and the movement of it is Boxing fundamentals. Haven't you ever seen Lee really train? Haven't you seen his movies? He moved like a Boxer. He loved Ali. He studied Ali. Lee's handspeed alone would have BJ blind as shit. He would knock BJ out. Lee's feints were cat like. He'd fake BJ then hit him with whatever he wants. Sure BJ has good Boxing, but NOWHERE near the speed of Lee. Or footwork.

As far as Lee's grappling, he was choked out once by Judo legend Gene Lebell. No shame in that. He saw a whole in his game and he fixed it as best he could. Thus he displayed an Armbar in Enter The Dragon. Was Lee's grappling on BJ's level? No. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu wasn't as main stream back then as it is now, infact wasn't Royce the first man to display it to us? And that was in 1993. Lee died in 1973. He probably hadn't even heard of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.

But if it was around in Lee's time he would have learned it like he did everything else and it would pause your argument that Penn would destroy this man. But Lee had grappling talent. Bruce Lee once said "To defeat a Martial Artist that's been training for 15 yrs, all you have to do is Box and Wrestle for 1 year and you got him". Whether that's true or not we don't really know, but obviously Lee was very aware of how affective Boxing and Wrestling are. He wasn't all about movie effects that were fantasy and knocked you out. He was an all around student of FIGHTING. It was Lee's dream to create a league of combatants of all styles to fight each other. Some like to think MMA was orginally his idea. He was no stranger to Boxing or grappling. He was VERY well aware. That video you posted means shit, that was him by himself just hitting a bag. Don't say "Penn's hands are far superior to Lee's" because Bruce knew how to Box. And his athleticism, feints, and handspeed alone would have had BJ asking himself which way did he go?:lol:

[achillesthegreat]

:lol:

That statement right there is proof you don't know shit about Lee. Bruce loved to Box. He studied many Boxers. Jeet Kune Do was a mixture of alot of techniques and the movement of it is Boxing fundamentals. Haven't you ever seen Lee really train? Haven't you seen his movies? He moved like a Boxer. He loved Ali. He studied Ali. Lee's handspeed alone would have BJ blind as shit. He would knock BJ out. Lee's feints were cat like. He'd fake BJ then hit him with whatever he wants. Sure BJ has good Boxing, but NOWHERE near the speed of Lee. Or footwork.

As far as Lee's grappling, he was choked out once by Judo legend Gene Lebell. No shame in that. He saw a whole in his game and he fixed it as best he could. Thus he displayed an Armbar in Enter The Dragon. Was Lee's grappling on BJ's level? No. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu wasn't as main stream back then as it is now, infact wasn't Royce the first man to display it to us? And that was in 1993. Lee died in 1973. He probably hadn't even heard of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.

But if it was around in Lee's time he would have learned it like he did everything else and it would pause your argument that Penn would destroy this man. But Lee had grappling talent. Bruce Lee once said "To defeat a Martial Artist that's been training for 15 yrs, all you have to do is Box and Wrestle for 1 year and you got him". Whether that's true or not we don't really know, but obviously Lee was very aware of how affective Boxing and Wrestling are. He wasn't all about movie effects that were fantasy and knocked you out. He was an all around student of Fighting. It was Lee's dream to create a league of men of all styles to fight each other. Some like to think MMA was orginally his idea. He was no stranger to Boxing or grappling. He was VERY well aware. That video you posted means shit, that was him by himself just hitting a bag. Don't say "Penn's hands are far superior to Lee's" because Bruce knew how to Box. And his athleticism and handspeed alone would have had BJ asking himself which way did he go?:lol:

Mate, I think anyone who is into combat sports and/or action move knows Bruce Lee. I know him pretty damn well. I've seen pretty much everything there is to see from Lee. I'm sure I've missed a few things but I've seen the majority of it. I know Bruce Lee's life very well.

Lee's grappling is very poor. He obviously did some and had some understanding but he was by and large a striker. If Lee's stand up was so great BJ could just shoot, take him down and close the show. Look how side on Lee stands, the guy wouldn't have a scooby about sprawling and would literally be thinking 'what the fuck is happening here'.

His philosphy sounds brillant, his on screen kicks are mesmerising but the fact of the matter is when we genuinely question him he can't stand up to interrogation. Sure, he read alot about boxing and was heavily influenced by it but his hands are piss poor. I've got video evidence of it.

I know he has won ALOT of fights against boxing, muay thai etc but can I please see some footage.

The guy was good but he wasn't God.

BJ's a professional fighter, a bit of speed doesn't phase him. BJ's a physical freak like Lee BUT he's actually got a genuine martial arts record to back up the cool stunts like jumping 3 foot out of water.

Based on facts and evidence, the truth be told Bruce Lee is a very poor man's Cung Le.

[Dynamite Kid]

Mate, I think anyone who is into combat sports and/or action move knows Bruce Lee. I know him pretty damn well. I've seen pretty much everything there is to see from Lee. I'm sure I've missed a few things but I've seen the majority of it. I know Bruce Lee's life very well.

Lee's grappling is very poor. He obviously did some and had some understanding but he was by and large a striker. If Lee's stand up was so great BJ could just shoot, take him down and close the show. Look how side on Lee stands, the guy wouldn't have a scooby about sprawling and would literally be thinking 'what the fuck is happening here'.

His philosphy sounds brillant, his on screen kicks are mesmerising but the fact of the matter is when we genuinely question him he can't stand up to interrogation. Sure, he read alot about boxing and was heavily influenced by it but his hands are piss poor. I've got video evidence of it.

I know he has won ALOT of fights against boxing, muay thai etc but can I please see some footage.

The guy was good but he wasn't God.

BJ's a professional fighter, a bit of speed doesn't phase him. BJ's a physical freak like Lee BUT he's actually got a genuine martial arts record to back up the cool stunts like jumping 3 foot out of water.

Based on facts and evidence, the truth be told Bruce Lee is a very poor man's Cung Le.

Dude you compared him to Rocky:bart You compared him to Rocky. You compared Bruce Lee to Rocky. YOU COMPARED THE GREATEST MARTIAL ARTIST OF THE 20TH CENTURY TO ROCKY. Stallone's fictional character. Rocky Balboa. Rocky Balboa and Bruce Lee you used as a comparison:patsch:blood

Then you go on to say Lee is a poor man's Cung Le. Absolutely absurd and ridiculous. Absolutely moronic fool headed. I can understand why you feel Penn would beat him, but your opinions and observations are pretty off. I actually thought you were a good poster, and I still do. With that being said, I've had enough of this conversation. That poor man's Cung Le comment did it for me. The absolute most foolish post I've read today so far. Have a good day sir. I think YOU should "puff puff pass that shit on":lol:

[196osh]

Then you go on to say Lee is a poor man's Cung Le. Absolutely absurd and ridiculous. Absolutely moronic fool headed. I can understand why you feel Penn would beat him, but your opinions and observations are pretty off. I actually thought you were a good poster, and I still do. With that being said, I've had enough of this conversation. That poor man's Cung Le comment did it for me. The absolute most foolish post I've read today so far. Have a good day sir. I think YOU should "puff puff pass that shit on":lol:

In fairness man. There is no solid proof to dispell what he said.

Also if anything Cung Le looks more flashy and quick relitive to his size than Lee ever did.

[TKDfighterJoe]

I aint watching all that bullsht just to hear some douche actor said he fought 'a' thaiboxer. Give me a name, date, and place.

[achillesthegreat]

Give me a name, date, and place.
You'll never get any real fight footage though and you've got to wonder why.

[achillesthegreat]

Dude you compared him to Rocky:bart You compared him to Rocky. You compared Bruce Lee to Rocky. YOU COMPARED THE GREATEST MARTIAL ARTIST OF THE 20TH CENTURY TO ROCKY. Stallone's fictional character. Rocky Balboa. Rocky Balboa and Bruce Lee you used as a comparison:patsch:blood

Then you go on to say Lee is a poor man's Cung Le. Absolutely absurd and ridiculous. Absolutely moronic fool headed. I can understand why you feel Penn would beat him, but your opinions and observations are pretty off. I actually thought you were a good poster, and I still do. With that being said, I've had enough of this conversation. That poor man's Cung Le comment did it for me. The absolute most foolish post I've read today so far. Have a good day sir. I think YOU should "puff puff pass that shit on":lol:

NO, I wrote "Lee is a physical specimen though and has inspired great fighters - Sugar Ray Leonard, BJ Penn etc... but then again so has rocky." In the manner which I compared them, I was spot on. Sly is a physical specimen and has been inspirational to great fighters like Joe Calzaghe. Sly clearly knows how to box and has sparred with Tarver, Mr T, Lundgren, Leonard etc Guys with REAL fighting experience.

Bruce Lee is exactly a poor man's Cung Le. Sensational kicks, awful hands, poor grappling. Cung Le has a genuine fighting legacy on tape whereas Bruce Lee has none.

You are hypnotised by Bruce Lee. There is no doubt about that.

The most foolish post I've read today is you sayingn he is the greatest martial artist of the 20th century. That is ridiculous to say the least.

[achillesthegreat]

Also if anything Cung Le looks more flashy and quick relitive to his size than Lee ever did.

True. Cung is a 185 pound man who probably walks around at 200 pounds. Bruce was 135 to 140. P4P Cung would probably be just as impressive if not more so.

[Dynamite Kid]

NO, I wrote "Lee is a physical specimen though and has inspired great fighters - Sugar Ray Leonard, BJ Penn etc... but then again so has rocky." In the manner which I compared them, I was spot on. Sly is a physical specimen and has been inspirational to great fighters like Joe Calzaghe. Sly clearly knows how to box and has sparred with Tarver, Mr T, Lundgren, Leonard etc Guys with REAL fighting experience.

Bruce Lee is exactly a poor man's Cung Le. Sensational kicks, awful hands, poor grappling. Cung Le has a genuine fighting legacy on tape whereas Bruce Lee has none.

You are hypnotised by Bruce Lee. There is no doubt about that.

The most foolish post I've read today is you sayingn he is the greatest martial artist of the 20th century. That is ridiculous to say the least.

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So I guess me and the many millions are wrong and you're right:lol:

Keep it up bro, you're looking great:yep:tired

Good day...

[WATERBOY]

bruce lee actor bj penn real fighter ufc lightweight champ prob the greatest lightweight ever, and you think lee would beat penn! good one!

[achillesthegreat]

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So I guess me and the many millions are wrong and you're right:lol:

Keep it up bro, you're looking great:yep:tired

Good day...

Unproven legacy versus the proven legacy of thousands of genuine martial artists. Yeah, I can see why would you choose the former!

[Dynamite Kid]

Unproven legacy versus the proven legacy of thousands of genuine martial artists. Yeah, I can see why would you choose the former!

:lol:

Bruce Lee unproven? Are you a moron or something or are you just trying to annoy me?:?

How is Lee unproven dude? Your favorite Martial Artist probably looks up to him. Your logic is moronic. Completely.

Compared him to Rocky, Poor man's Cung Le, now unproven?:lol:

Bruce Lee felt there were to many fixed positions in Wing Chun that wouldn't work in a real fight. HE MADE UP HIS OWN FUCKIN STYLE, He revolutionized Martial Arts in his time. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? Come to think of it, what's wrong with alot people? You're not the first person that seems to discredit this man.

[Dynamite Kid]

bruce lee actor bj penn real fighter ufc lightweight champ prob the greatest lightweight ever, and you think lee would beat penn! Good one!

Needle dick!!! Needle dick!!! Needle dick!!!

[achillesthegreat]

:lol:

Bruce Lee unproven? Are you a moron or something or are you just trying to annoy me?:?

How is Lee unproven dude? Your favorite Martial Artist probably looks up to him. Your logic is moronic. Completely.

Compared him to Rocky, Poor man's Cung Le, now unproven?:lol:

Bruce Lee felt there were to many fixed positions in Wing Chun that wouldn't work in a real fight. HE MADE UP HIS OWN FUCKIN STYLE, He revolutionized Martial Arts in his time. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? Come to think of it, what's wrong with alot people? You're not the first person that seems to discredit this man.

You think Lee is proven to the same degree as other martial artists from the 20th C? Are you joking? This has to be a wind up.

Martial Artist look up to him, I've said that BUT they aren't stupid enough to say he is greater than all the PROVEN martial artists.

specimen and inspirational like rocky - FACT.
poor man's cung le - FACT.

He did make up his own style and you are right, I see many modern MMA crediting their success to JKD :patsch

It's already been proven that he didn't revolutionise MMA. He just accessed the masses via TV and Hollywood. Jack Dempsey is the commonly used example to demonstrate a MIXED martial artist prior to Lee.

I'm not discrediting the man. I just don't have his balls in my mouth and thus I'm telling it like it is.

[cross_trainer]

My eyes are bleeding from this thread.

Here's a bit of his sparring footage. Unfortunately, it's worse quality than some of Jack Johnson's...

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[196osh]

The full contact sparring does nothing to convince me that BJ Penn would not brutally brutally own Lee.

[snakey112]

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bruce lee looking like an amateur on the heavy bag

hands at his waist, chin out, little speed and power

lol @ his so called "elite" boxing skills

fact is guys like bj penn have legit pro records and have proven themselves, all lee has is stories and hear'say, it's not like he couldn't prove himself when he was alive, back then they had boxing, muay thai, judo etc heck he could have even done vale tudo tournamets in brazil if he wanted.

[cross_trainer]

The full contact sparring does nothing to convince me that BJ Penn would not brutally brutally own Lee.

It wasn't supposed to.

[196osh]

It wasn't supposed to.

I guessed. :D

Just an observation.

Whats your opinion on Lee?

[Dynamite Kid]

You think Lee is proven to the same degree as other martial artists from the 20th C? Are you joking? This has to be a wind up.

Martial Artist look up to him, I've said that BUT they aren't stupid enough to say he is greater than all the PROVEN martial artists.

specimen and inspirational like rocky - FACT.
poor man's cung le - FACT.

He did make up his own style and you are right, I see many modern MMA crediting their success to JKD :patsch

It's already been proven that he didn't revolutionise MMA. He just accessed the masses via TV and Hollywood. Jack Dempsey is the commonly used example to demonstrate a MIXED martial artist prior to Lee.

I'm not discrediting the man. I just don't have his balls in my mouth and thus I'm telling it like it is.

Poor man's Cung Le- NOT A FACT. Simply a moronic statement made by a David Haye fan:lol:

And who the hell is really talking about MMA? I don't think you're following very well. I'm talking about the man's legacy now, not MMA. So because he didn't revolutionize MMA as a sport (which wasn't even around in his time) that takes away from what he was? Are you actually serious? MMA is a sport dude. I'm talking Martial Arts in general, NOT MMA. And as far who Lee was as a MARTIAL ARTIST, HE WAS 2ND TO NONE. MMA not credtiting Jeet Kune Do means what? Not everyone is good at Jeet Kune Do. The same way certain fighters don't have a ground game, no matter how hard they train. I'm a Lee fanatic (which is obvious) but I don't really study Jeet Kune Do. I'm simply not good at it. My body can't move that way. I'm a Muay Thai, Boxer, & Brazilian Jiu-jitsu guy.

And yes, the greatest Martial Artist of the 20th century. The narrator was correct when referencing how high MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE RANK HIM. There was nobody on his radar when he was on top (which was very brief, he died at 32). There's a reason why people talk fantasy matchups involving Bruce Lee and pro fighters. Whether it be vs Boxers, Kickboxers, MMA fighters, etc.

We don't often hear shit about Jet Li vs this guy or that guy, or this Martial Artist against this fighter or that fighter, the topic is usually always Bruce Lee:lol: Alot of people feel (as an opinion) that Bruce Lee would kick alot of fighters asses today. And I for one feel, if he was still around (though he'd be an old man) MMA might be bigger than it is now.

[cross_trainer]

I guessed. :D

Just an observation.

Whats your opinion on Lee?

Hmmm...

1) He couldn't beat most professional fighters. Joe Lewis (the kickboxer, not the boxer) was pretty adamant about this, and he trained with Lee. Then again, Lewis is something of an egomaniac...

2) Lee could beat me, 98% of this forum, and many non-professional fighters.

3) Jun Fan JKD isn't all that impressive by modern standards. Still, it's a nifty bit of analysis and shows a keen analytical mind.

4) Victor McLaglen was a better actor and fighter.

5) Lee was a great trainer. Lewis in particular thought highly of his theories...and considering his aforementioned egomania, that's quite something. It takes a lot to impress Lewis. Norris and several of the other top karateka trained with him as well.

6) Very, very fit, but not superhumanly fit. A couple notches below somebody like LaLanne, for instance.

7) An ICON. His movies transformed the martial arts into a global phenomenon and encouraged cross-training among thousands of martial artists. Heck, the Croats and Serbs in one town in the Balkans created a peace monument with Bruce Lee on it as a unifying symbol. Crazy stuff.

8 ) Cloaked his theories in pseudophilosophical mysticism. Unfortunately, less scrupulous MA'ists than Lee used this mysticism to promote exactly the OPPOSITE message from Lee's "Hard Sparring And Test Your Stuff" approach.

9) Not the first to cross-train, and failed to appreciate the value of grappling (movie armbars aside). Barton Wright did it better seventy years before, but he wasn't a publicist of Lee's caliber.



If greatness = popularity and breadth of influence, Lee IS the greatest martial artist of all time. If we're looking for fighting ability or the "correctness" of his theories, then no.

[achillesthegreat]

Poor man's Cung Le- NOT A FACT. Simply a moronic statement made by a David Haye fan:lol:

And who the hell is really talking about MMA? I don't think you're following very well. I'm talking about the man's legacy now, not MMA. So because he didn't revolutionize MMA as a sport (which wasn't even around in his time) that takes away from what he was? Are you actually serious? MMA is a sport dude. I'm talking Martial Arts in general, NOT MMA. And as far who Lee was as a MARTIAL ARTIST, HE WAS 2ND TO NONE. MMA not credtiting Jeet Kune Do means what? Not everyone is good at Jeet Kune Do. The same way certain fighters don't have a ground game, no matter how hard they train. I'm a Lee fanatic (which is obvious) but I don't really study Jeet Kune Do. I'm simply not good at it. My body can't move that way. I'm a Muay Thai, Boxer, & Brazilian Jiu-jitsu guy.

And yes, the greatest Martial Artist of the 20th century. The narrator was correct when referencing how high MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE RANK HIM. There was nobody on his radar when he was on top (which was very brief, he died at 32). There's a reason why people talk fantasy matchups involving Bruce Lee and pro fighters. Whether it be vs Boxers, Kickboxers, MMA fighters, etc.

We don't often hear shit about Jet Li vs this guy or that guy, or this Martial Artist against this fighter or that fighter, the topic is usually always Bruce Lee:lol: Alot of people feel (as an opinion) that Bruce Lee would kick alot of fighters asses today. And I for one feel, if he was still around (though he'd be an old man) MMA might be bigger than it is now.
I've made my argument as to why he is a poor man's Cung. You've done little to refute it because it can't be refuted. Generally speaking, both guys consist of great kicks, terrible hands and average grappling. Cung is proven and much superior to Lee in all of these areas thus making him a poor version.

I'm happy to discuss MMA or MA. As a MA, Lee isn't shit to all these ADCC champs, all these Olympians etc etc PROVEN athletes.

People have bought into the myth that is Bruce Lee. Millions like him because of MOVIES. Million rank him because of myth. I think the majority of educated MA fans would not rank him. I'd be shocked if we ran a poll on this forum and people bothered to think about him in the same sentence as Floyd Mayweather or George St Pierre.

[Canibus81]

:lol:

That statement right there is proof you don't know shit about Lee. Bruce loved to Box. He studied many Boxers. Jeet Kune Do was a mixture of alot of techniques and the movement of it is Boxing fundamentals. Haven't you ever seen Lee really train? Haven't you seen his movies? He moved like a Boxer. He loved Ali. He studied Ali. Lee's handspeed alone would have BJ blind as shit. He would knock BJ out. Lee's feints were cat like. He'd fake BJ then hit him with whatever he wants. Sure BJ has good Boxing, but NOWHERE near the speed of Lee. Or footwork.

As far as Lee's grappling, he was choked out once by Judo legend Gene Lebell. No shame in that. He saw a whole in his game and he fixed it as best he could. Thus he displayed an Armbar in Enter The Dragon. Was Lee's grappling on BJ's level? No. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu wasn't as main stream back then as it is now, infact wasn't Royce the first man to display it to us? And that was in 1993. Lee died in 1973. He probably hadn't even heard of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.

But if it was around in Lee's time he would have learned it like he did everything else and it would pause your argument that Penn would destroy this man. But Lee had grappling talent. Bruce Lee once said "To defeat a Martial Artist that's been training for 15 yrs, all you have to do is Box and Wrestle for 1 year and you got him". Whether that's true or not we don't really know, but obviously Lee was very aware of how affective Boxing and Wrestling are. He wasn't all about movie effects that were fantasy and knocked you out. He was an all around student of FIGHTING. It was Lee's dream to create a league of combatants of all styles to fight each other. Some like to think MMA was orginally his idea. He was no stranger to Boxing or grappling. He was VERY well aware. That video you posted means shit, that was him by himself just hitting a bag. Don't say "Penn's hands are far superior to Lee's" because Bruce knew how to Box. And his athleticism, feints, and handspeed alone would have had BJ asking himself which way did he go?:lol:

Thanks for clearing that up, I was gonna say the same thing. And NO, BJ Penn's boxing in no where on Bruce Lee's radar. Only thing he got better than him would be Brazlian Jiu Jit Su, but he's just about better than anybody in that aspect.

[cross_trainer]

Thanks for clearing that up, I was gonna say the same thing. And NO, BJ Penn's boxing in no where on Bruce Lee's radar. Only thing he got better than him would be Brazlian Jiu Jit Su, but he's just about better than anybody in that aspect.

:huh

I don't mean to sound sarcastic or dismissive, but when did Lee fight in a boxing match? Studying Ali's footwork and reading Dempsey's book--no matter how thoroughly--does not equal boxing proficiency. I've heard rumors of a single boxing match in Hong Kong, but that's it.

Say what you like about BJ, but he uses boxing to knock out guys who have also studied boxing and are trying to throw, kick, and knee him to a pulp.

[196osh]

Great post cross_trainer. Sums up my thoughts in a more succinct manor.

Although I didn't know who Victor McLaglen was, he looks an interesting guy.

[cross_trainer]

Great post cross_trainer. Sums up my thoughts in a more succinct manor.

Although I didn't know who Victor McLaglen was, he looks an interesting guy.

Thanks. :good

McLaglen was indeed interesting. Big guy...boxed, wrestled, won an academy award, served in World War I, and fought Jack Johnson. Can't beat that combination.

His brother wrote a (bad) Jiujitsu pamphlet: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Canibus81]

:huh

I don't mean to sound sarcastic or dismissive, but when did Lee fight in a boxing match? Studying Ali's footwork and reading Dempsey's book--no matter how thoroughly--does not equal boxing proficiency. I've heard rumors of a single boxing match in Hong Kong, but that's it.

Say what you like about BJ, but he uses boxing to knock out guys who have also studied boxing and are trying to throw, kick, and knee him to a pulp.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

here you go, he won a boxing tornament before he even left Hong Kong. And No, you don't have to be an expert boxer to outbox BJ penn or the majority of mma fighters, if your above average in a little bit of everything your dangerous fighter because of how many of the different ways to win a fight. And BJ's boxing skills aren't impressive at all, I've watched just about all of his fights, just the guys he's fighting don't have great standup, that's why he does well. You see what happen when he fought St. Piere, and St. Piere hardly had any of the experience that BJ penn had on the ground and he dominated him. InFact he adpated wrestling to his game and was outwrestling guys with far more wrestling experience, that right there should tell you that everybody is different. I think Lee would be an exception to the rule based on his Martial Arts knowledge and physical abilities, so I don't think he would have a problem disecting certain styles and fighters.

[196osh]

1957 High School Boxing Champion ......

[Canibus81]

1957 High School Boxing Champion ......

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Here's some of his fight history.

[196osh]

three time champion British boxer Gary Elms?

Odd that he does not have a boxrec.

[achillesthegreat]

There have been conflicting reports on Lee's fight history before.

So there footage of him behind the scenes, his training, but no genuine fight footage to prove he is actually any good at fighting. Even in the sparring footage his footwork is continously out of position, he has no guard which to speak of, he is completely kick orientated and i doubt he has any clinch game or top quality grappling.

BJ is a quality boxer. Not flawless but a good boxer who has hung with everyone he's ever fought and he has fought good strikers and completely neutralised them.

Florian, GSP, Sanchez etc all strike to a higher level then Lee. Lee hitting the heavybag is at the same level as at least 50 people who post home made videos on youtube.

[achillesthegreat]

three time champion British boxer Gary Elms?

Odd that he does not have a boxrec.

It was an amateur show...apparently.

[196osh]

Any info on Elms cross_trainer?

[Canibus81]

I aint watching all that bullsht just to hear some douche actor said he fought 'a' thaiboxer. Give me a name, date, and place.

The Big Boss Son that was the head of of his gang on the movie was the one who confirmed it. If you saw the movie than you'll know who i'm talking about.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

. BJ Penn is a great fighter, but I would never wanna see him with a Bruce Lee (fantasy speaking of course) BJ would get kicked in his leg then punched in his face faster than he can say "Just Scrap" then he'd be unconscious.

:rofl:rofl:rofl Wow....:rofl

[Canibus81]

:rofl:rofl:rofl Wow....:rofl

Speed kills and all the best fighters had speed, Pacquiao is livin proof of that and Bruce Lee was even one of his Idols. Penn wouldn't even have the quarter of speed that Bruce had.

[RockyMarciano]

Bruce lee sent a Judo Champion flying into the wall with 1 kick. The man was EXTREMELY powerful. His I.Q. on fighting and him mastering the human body the way he did would have been to much for any opponent IMO. Bruce Lee didn't have to have pro fights to have proven himself. He's considered the greatest Martial Artist of the 20th century.

You don't get that label by being a sucker. His teaching's and philosphy's are still relevant today. He's still being studied by millions (including myself) and also many fighters. Jeet Kune Do is very difficult and not everyone can master it. Fighters like Luke Cummo & Ben Saunders study it. BJ Penn is a great fighter, but I would never wanna see him with a Bruce Lee (fantasy speaking of course) BJ would get kicked in his leg then punched in his face faster than he can say "Just Scrap" then he'd be unconscious. Comparing a fictional character like Rocky to Bruce Lee is absolutely absurd.


Bruce Lee beats BJ Penn? Are you fuckin out of your mind???

[196osh]

Penn wouldn't even have the quarter of speed that Bruce had.

:patsch

[achillesthegreat]

Speed kills and all the best fighters had speed, Pacquiao is livin proof of that and Bruce Lee was even one of his Idols. Penn wouldn't even have the quarter of speed that Bruce had.

No speed doesn't kill. Speed that is NURTURED kills. There are TONS of fast guys but with out the right training it doesn't mean shit.

To be honest, Lees kicks look quite fast but that is because they are fancy looking. His Wing Chun strikes look fast but that is because of how the strike looks i.e. they are often pathetic chops to the neck with little recoil. When he punches properly on the bag he doesn't look like Leonard, Ali, Pac or Jones.

[cross_trainer]

1957 High School Boxing Champion ......

And apparently...

"Hawkings Cheung, his fellow Wing Chun street fighter, witnessed the event."

I'd really like to see original sources.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Speed kills and all the best fighters had speed, Pacquiao is livin proof of that and Bruce Lee was even one of his Idols. Penn wouldn't even have the quarter of speed that Bruce had.
Hmmm... how about punch resistance? Grappling ability? Wrestling ability? Submission offense? Submission defense? Clinch fighting? Takedowns? Takedown defense? Technical striking skills? Real fight experience? Dominating performances in real fights against the other best fighters in the world? Does any of that stand for anything? Or are we just going to stick with the Bruce Lee was faster, so he wins theory? BJ Penn isn't exactly slow either, btw.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[196osh]

And apparently...

"Hawkings Cheung, his fellow Wing Chun street fighter, witnessed the event."

I'd really like to see original sources.

I reliable source I am sure. Hawkings is an honest guy obviously....:blood

[achillesthegreat]

I think all of the sources for Lee's fighting experience are friends and family. Some reports conflict as well. One source says a fight lasts a certain duration and others say otherwise. I've seen conflicting reports on two different 'fights'. I really want to know why no real fighting could be video.

The title of this thread is he fought a Thai boxer on a FILM SET. No cameras available to record the accomplishment I guess?!?!?!

[MaliSlamusrex]

Bruce Lee was one of the pioneers of what is now called MMA. Bruce Lee practiced Wing Chung but his fighting principle was to combine all styles and classical and modern martial arts to improve his fighting style. At the time Bruce Lee was alive some traditional Martial arts Dojo's wouldn't teach foreigners.

Because Bruce Lee integrated different style's i have no doubt he would have kicked the shit out of that guy. + I have got the avenging fist on DVD.... Bruce Lee was a bad man

[elmaldito]

:patschThere are loads of stories of Lee beating amateur boxers, thai guys etc He trained so much that I'm sure he could do some good things. He clearly had a decent amount of talent as he was fast and agile. However I don't think he could beat the best i.e. MMA today would play with him.

I'd compare him to Cung Le. Great kicks, awful hands, weak grappling and without the real experience of facing true mixed martial arts or even the best of combat styles i.e. kick boxing.

All the guards he uses I think are ineffective. Alot of his sequences are for show and someone like BJ would fuck him up.

Lee is a physical specimen though and has inspired great fighters - Sugar Ray Leonard, BJ Penn etc... but then again so has rocky.

[elmaldito]

Bruce Lee beats BJ Penn? Are you fuckin out of your mind???
easily

[Canibus81]

I think all of the sources for Lee's fighting experience are friends and family. Some reports conflict as well. One source says a fight lasts a certain duration and others say otherwise. I've seen conflicting reports on two different 'fights'. I really want to know why no real fighting could be video.

The title of this thread is he fought a Thai boxer on a FILM SET. No cameras available to record the accomplishment I guess?!?!?!

Your talking about in the late 60's and early 70's. Camera's at that time were extremely expensive and some high profile events weren't even on camera. There were no MMA at that time, so the only thing was either challenge matches or street fights. Now your entitled to your oponion, but I don't understand why it's so hard for you to believe that he could handle himself in a MMA fight when he already had tons of physical gifts and a wide span of martials knowledge and IQ, especially when you claimed to know as much as you do. There's nothing wrong with being Skeptical but too Skeptical is not good because people like that usually don't wanna be fooled some reason or another. You need proof but you don't need proof for everything.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Every time that I hear all of these "fight stories" involving Bruce Lee... it reminds of a time when I was 19 years old. I had been out drinking and was dropping off one of my friends at his apartment in the projects. There were about a dozen people standing around, and a couple of them started to yell shit at him, then approached him... so I got out of my car and ran up beside him. Well... most of them were clearly wasted, and it was really cold and snowing out. I told the one who was the most aggressive to leave him alone or I was going to kick his ass. Well, he took a swing at me, I dodged it and just sort of pushed him backwards in the process. He started slipping like crazy on the icy cement and fell head slamming into a dumpster. One of his friends hit my friend so I hit him with a good one in the jaw, dropping him. Now... at that point all of the other people backed away, stood there silently, or were just bystanders saying "ohhh". Hell, at least 4 of them were girls, and the others never even made a threatening move towards us. I had only thrown one punch. Now... the next day I left for a month Vacation with some family in Atlanta. When I came back to Ohio a month later... I heard two different stories about myself... both of them hilarious. The most common story was that I fought 8 people at once and knocked them all out cold. The second story, even more hilarious... was that I knocked out 1 guy... then I knocked out another one...grabbed him in a headlock (I swear this is a true rumor)... and yanked out his tooth with a pair of pliers. (I guess one of them actually lost a tooth but I didn't even know at the time) People actually believed this shit! :lol: As if I just walk around carrying pliers in my pocket for those occasions.:nutPeople told this rumor so long that to this day, 10 years later... people still talk about it. Every time I tell them the true story... but for some reason that one never gets around.


Point being... second hand fight stories without proof aren't very reliable.

[achillesthegreat]

Your talking about in the late 60's and early 70's. Camera's at that time were extremely expensive and some high profile events weren't even on camera. There were no MMA at that time, so the only thing was either challenge matches or street fights. Now your entitled to your oponion, but I don't understand why it's so hard for you to believe that he could handle himself in a MMA fight when he already had tons of physical gifts and a wide span of martials knowledge and IQ, especially when you claimed to know as much as you do. There's nothing wrong with being Skeptical but too Skeptical is not good because people like that usually don't wanna be fooled some reason or another. You need proof but you don't need proof for everything.

He recorded training footage at home but never wanted any of his amazing feats in other martial arts to be seen. Yeah right.

He was on a film set but NO ONE thought it would be cool to catch him taking on a thai boxer. Yeah right.

The guy is completely unproven on the level of genuine MA or MMA. All you Bruce fanatics are assuming he has the stamina, assuming he has power, assuming he has a chin, assuming he has heart and assuming he has all the intangiables. The guy looks good but his functional ability in a 5MMA/12boxing round fight is unknown.

All I know is the guy dedicated his life to MA and his boxing stinks, he has pretty much no high level grappling and it all comes down to his kicks. I barely see any elbows or knees from him. Boxing, Muay Thai and Judo were around and they are effective arts but I don't see him mastering them.

To be honest, his son looks less talented but technically better from what I've seen. He seems to have Muay Thai experience and actually throws good strikes. When he fought fancy it was for the cameras.

Bruce Lee has potential but probably no more than we thought of Brock or Pudzianowski. He's a specimen so it would be interesting to see him try it. HOWEVER I have absolutely no doubt BJ Penn would dominate him at everything except maybe kicks.

[codeman99998]

HOWEVER I have absolutely no doubt BJ Penn would dominate him at everything except maybe kicks.

+1. Pound for pound ranked multiple time multiple weight class mixed martial arts world champions beat Bruce Lee 10 times out of 10. Don't be upset by this Bruce Lee fans, BJ Penn also beats every other 155 or less pound person on the planet just about every time, so it's no disrespect.

[Canibus81]

He recorded training footage at home but never wanted any of his amazing feats in other martial arts to be seen. Yeah right.

He was on a film set but NO ONE thought it would be cool to catch him taking on a thai boxer. Yeah right.

The guy is completely unproven on the level of genuine MA or MMA. All you Bruce fanatics are assuming he has the stamina, assuming he has power, assuming he has a chin, assuming he has heart and assuming he has all the intangiables. The guy looks good but his functional ability in a 5MMA/12boxing round fight is unknown.

All I know is the guy dedicated his life to MA and his boxing stinks, he has pretty much no high level grappling and it all comes down to his kicks. I barely see any elbows or knees from him. Boxing, Muay Thai and Judo were around and they are effective arts but I don't see him mastering them.

To be honest, his son looks less talented but technically better from what I've seen. He seems to have Muay Thai experience and actually throws good strikes. When he fought fancy it was for the cameras.

Bruce Lee has potential but probably no more than we thought of Brock or Pudzianowski. He's a specimen so it would be interesting to see him try it. HOWEVER I have absolutely no doubt BJ Penn would dominate him at everything except maybe kicks.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Here's something else for you, since you need proof for everything. 5 min. later you'll probably be telling me he made it up.

[codeman99998]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Here's something else for you, since you need proof for everything. 5 min. later you'll probably be telling me he made it up.

Just because THAT guy says Bruce Lee could beat him in a NHB fight that means he could beat BJ Penn? If you use the internet, you can probably find video evidence of BJ Penn proving time and time again that he can beat some of the very best fighters in the entire world.

It's not as if Bruce had no MMA experience but beat Sonny Liston in a street fight, or beat Olympic wrestlers in a street fight. He beat up some Thai boxer on a movie set. He beat up some guy on the street for harassing a girl. He won a local boxing tournament against nobodies.

Even if EVERY story about Lee was true I'd still pick Penn 10 out of 10. I don't even know if Bruce Lee would have beaten Royce Gracie at UFC 1 to be honest. Probably not.

[achillesthegreat]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Here's something else for you, since you need proof for everything. 5 min. later you'll probably be telling me he made it up.

That is another Bruce Lee follower.

If you look at my first post I say Bruce could probably beat loads of low level martial artists. Streetfighters, amateur boxers etc he could beat. He was a physical talent and trained HARD at what he did. He trained harder then low level athletes like amateur boxers.

But to say that Bruce could beat the best 155 pound fighter to date is nothing short of insane.

[achillesthegreat]

Just because THAT guy says Bruce Lee could beat him in a NHB fight that means he could beat BJ Penn? If you use the internet, you can probably find video evidence of BJ Penn proving time and time again that he can beat some of the very best fighters in the entire world.

It's not as if Bruce had no MMA experience but beat Sonny Liston in a street fight, or beat Olympic wrestlers in a street fight. He beat up some Thai boxer on a movie set. He beat up some guy on the street for harassing a girl. He won a local boxing tournament against nobodies.

Even if EVERY story about Lee was true I'd still pick Penn 10 out of 10. I don't even know if Bruce Lee would have beaten Royce Gracie at UFC 1 to be honest. Probably not.
Royce Gracie is a sort of Bruce Lee story. Loads of gym wars, loads of followers saying he could do this and that. Royce got in the cage and beat real fighters from different backgrounds. Back in those days, if you had no grappling/sub knowledge you would get taken down and subbed cos you didn't know what was going on. No doubt Royce would have approached Lee in the same way and achieved it inside a few minutes.

That was that era though. MMA has evolved WAY past UFC1. BJ Penn is in the athletic and complete era along with guys like GSP and Silva not Ken Shamrock!

Royce subs Lee too. No doubt about it.

[Canibus81]

That is another Bruce Lee follower.

If you look at my first post I say Bruce could probably beat loads of low level martial artists. Streetfighters, amateur boxers etc he could beat. He was a physical talent and trained HARD at what he did. He trained harder then low level athletes like amateur boxers.

But to say that Bruce could beat the best 155 pound fighter to date is nothing short of insane.

Saying St. Pierre could of outwrestled Koscheck who wrestled since he was 8yrs. of age would of been insane. See my point.

And Bruce would KO graice, especially in the early UFC's where there were hardly no rules. More well rounded, eons faster, harder hitter etc. Only chance gracie would have is to try and get him to the ground, but he couldn't cause he wouldn't have enough skills or speed to get in on him.

[196osh]

God...:rofl, :rofl/

[achillesthegreat]

Saying St. Pierre could of outwrestled Koscheck who wrestled since he was 8yrs. of age would of been insane. See my point.

And Bruce would KO graice, especially in the early UFC's where there were hardly no rules. More well rounded, eons faster, harder hitter etc. Only chance gracie would have is to try and get him to the ground, but he couldn't cause he wouldn't have enough skills or speed to get in on him.

Not really. Firstly it isn't pure wrestling, it is wrestling in MMA. Secondly, GSP is much more phsyically talented and athletic. Thirdly he did BJJ and wrestling since he was younger. Coupled with the fact that as a pro he wrestled with the best Canada had to offer. I don't think GSP outwrestling Koscheck is as shocking as Lee beating BJ.

BJ is the best 155 pound fighter ever.

If you love Bruce then argue his POTENTIAL. Just think about the ODDS of what you are saying. All logic points against it. I'm SHOCKED that in an MMA forum 3 guys have come up with such blind love for Bruce Lee.

[Canibus81]

Not really. Firstly it isn't pure wrestling, it is wrestling in MMA. Secondly, GSP is much more phsyically talented and athletic. Thirdly he did BJJ and wrestling since he was younger. Coupled with the fact that as a pro he wrestled with the best Canada had to offer. I don't think GSP outwrestling Koscheck is as shocking as Lee beating BJ.

BJ is the best 155 pound fighter ever.

If you love Bruce then argue his POTENTIAL. Just think about the ODDS of what you are saying. All logic points against it. I'm SHOCKED that in an MMA forum 3 guys have come up with such blind love for Bruce Lee.

So, Bruce Lee did some boxing when he was teenager, and than you say he couldn't box or had no boxing experience. And so what GSP wrestled with the best canada had to offer, he still didn't have hardly any wrestling experience. And GSP outwrestled Koscheck, doesn't matter if it was MMA fight, he still beat him in his own game.

And Bruce Lee was just as natually Physically athletic and talented as GSP. More speed as well(although developed a lot through his wing chun training) and more intelligent.

And I don't have no blind love for Bruce Lee, i just give credit, where credit is due. And there isn't no facts of what your saying either because we'll never know, only opinion. And know one thing though, BJ Penn definetly didn't have better boxing skills, or standup ability than Lee.

[achillesthegreat]

So, Bruce Lee did some boxing when he was teenager, and than you say he couldn't box or had no boxing experience. And so what GSP wrestled with the best canada had to offer, he still didn't have hardly any wrestling experience. And GSP outwrestled Koscheck, doesn't matter if it was MMA fight, he still beat him in his own game.

And Bruce Lee was just as natually Physically athletic and talented as GSP. More speed as well(although developed a lot through his wing chun training) and more intelligent.

And I don't have no blind love for Bruce Lee, i just give credit, where credit is due. And there isn't no facts of what your saying either because we'll never know, only opinion. And know one thing though, BJ Penn definetly didn't have better boxing skills, or standup ability than Lee.

GSP just stated for him to compete in Olympic wrestling he'd need to leave MMA for 18 months to qualify and completely rededicate himself to the difference. So it looks like it being an MMA fight does matter.

I think Lee's physical talent is overrated. Again, is there any footage of these feats that people claim? I've seen him do V sits, 2 fingered push ups etc Personally, I think he can do impressive numbers but does he have functional strength?

People talk about his speed but I think it's a little bit overrated.

At best Bruce Lee has physical potential, just like Lesnar, Pudz and numerous others. NOTHING MORE.

[Canibus81]

GSP just stated for him to compete in Olympic wrestling he'd need to leave MMA for 18 months to qualify and completely rededicate himself to the difference. So it looks like it being an MMA fight does matter.

I think Lee's physical talent is overrated. Again, is there any footage of these feats that people claim? I've seen him do V sits, 2 fingered push ups etc Personally, I think he can do impressive numbers but does he have functional strength?

People talk about his speed but I think it's a little bit overrated.

At best Bruce Lee has physical potential, just like Lesnar, Pudz and numerous others. NOTHING MORE.


The weight training program that Lee developed during a stay in Hong Kong in 1965 placed heavy emphasis on arm development. At that time he could perform single bicep curls with 70 to 80 lbs (about 32 to 36 kg) dumbbell for three sets of eight repetitions. Other weight training exercises, such as squats, push-ups, reverse curls, concentration curls, French presses, and both wrist curls and reverse wrist curls.[30] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-29) he performed consisted of 6 to 12 reps (at the time) per set. While this method of training targeted his fast twitch muscles, it also resulted in gaining muscle mass, placing Bruce a little over 160 lbs (about 72 kg).
Lee was documented as having well over 2,500 books in his own personal library, and eventually concluded that "A stronger muscle, is a bigger muscle", a conclusion he later disputed. Bruce forever experimented with his training routines to maximize his physical abilities, and push the human body to its limits. He employed many different routines and exercises including skipping rope, which served his training and bodybuilding purposes effectively.[31] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-30)
Lee believed that the abdominal muscles were one of the most important muscle groups for a martial artist, since virtually every movement requires some degree of abdominal muscle activation. He trained daily from 7 a.m. to 9 a.m., exercising stomach muscles, stretching to increase flexibility, and running to increase endurance. From 11 a.m. to 12 p.m. he would weight train and cycle. A typical aerobic conditioning routine for Lee would be to run a distance of two to six miles in 15 to 45 minutes, in which he would vary speed in 3–5 minute intervals. Additionally, Lee would also ride the equivalent of 10 miles (about 16 kilometers) in 45 minutes on a stationary bike.[32] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-31)
Lee would sometimes exercise with the jump rope and put in 800 jumps after cycling. He would also include conditioning techniques to toughen the skin on his fists, including thrusting his hands into buckets of harsh rocks and gravel. He would do over 500 repetitions of this on a given day.[33] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-32)
Chuck Norris states, "Lee, pound for pound, might well have been one of the strongest men in the world, and certainly one of the quickest."[34] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-33)[35] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-34)[36] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-35)[37] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-36)[38] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-37)


Uncanny Ability

Joe Lewis, regarded as the greatest fighter in karate history attaining the titles of "United States Heavyweight Kickboxing Champion", "World Heavyweight Karate Champion" and "United States National Black Belt Kata Champion", states that Bruce was incredibly strong for his size. "He could take a 75lb barbell and from a standing position with the barbell held flush against his chest, he could slowly stick his arms out, lock them and hold the barbell there for 20 seconds, that's pretty damn tough for a guy who at the time only weighed 138lbs. I know 200lb pro weight lifters who can't do that."[39] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-38) " [40] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-39)
Dan Inosanto states "Bruce had tremendous strength in holding a weight out horizontally in a standing position. I know because I've seen it. He'd take a 125lb barbell and hold it straight out.[41] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-40) "
Jesse Glover states "Bruce would take hold of a 70lb dumbbell with one arm and raise it to a lateral position, level to his shoulder and then he'd hold the contraction for a few seconds. Nobody else I knew could even get it up there, let it alone hold it up there.[42] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-41)
Karl Abs, the champion weight lifter for the European Greco-Roman Heavyweight Championship in 1894, was known as "The German Oak" and was the first man in Germany to continental and jerk 330 pounds. For the deltoid exercise that Lee performed described above, Karl Abs own deltoid hold out in perfect form was 88 pounds and was an established world wide record.[43] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-42)
Ted Wong states "Bruce would do a lot of different types of sit ups and bench presses. He was also using a technique like the Weider Heavy/Light Principle, working up to 260lbs in the bench press for three sets of 10 on his heavy days and then repping out for 20-30 reps with 100lbs on his light days.[44] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-43)
When he could do push ups on his thumbs and push ups with 250lbs on his back, he moved on to other exercises.[45] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-44) "
In an essay about Bruce Lee's strength, the author of the article, Christopher D. Hess wrote "Lee performed bicep curls using a weight of 80 pounds and 8 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum of 110 pounds and would place him in the 100th percentile for the 121-140 pound body weight class.[46] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-45) "
The 1973 documented photograph taken at the office of Black Belt Magazine capturing Lee curling a 115 pound barbell in a single arm corresponds directly to Hess's uncanny calculation for the 110 pound bicep curl.[47] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-46)
Herb Jackson states "Bruce was interested in becoming as strong as possible[48] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-47) ".
James Rage states "I think its important for people to realize that he was not only one of history's greatest martial artists, but also one of the finest athletes period. His devotion to physical exercise and healthy lifestyle was mind-boggling.[49] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-48) "


John Little ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) states "He wanted to see just what the limitations and capabilities of the human body were. He would do two thousand punches a day, he would do one thousand kicks a day, he would run three miles and then ride on his exercylce for fifteen miles. All of it was pushing to see what the human body was truly capable of.[50] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-49) "

An article of the S. China Post writes "When a doctor warned him not to inflict too much violence on his body, Bruce dismissed his words. 'the human brain can subjugate anything, even real pain' --Bruce Lee.[51] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-50) "
Hayward Nishioka, a former National AAU judo champion, experiences first hand with a pad on his chest Lee's one-inch punch and describes what follows: "When Bruce punched me, I was almost jolted out of my pants and I bounced off the wall. But I couldn't believe it, so I told Bruce to do it again. After the second punch I was completely convinced. I never thought anyone could be that strong.[52] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-51) "
Hashimoto, a fourth dan black belt was a student of the noted karate sensei Shigeru Egami and when asked by National AAU judo champion, Nishioka, for his thoughts on being struck by Lee's one inch punch Hashimoto states "Frightening. I never met anybody like him before, not even in Japan.[53] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-52) "

[achillesthegreat]

I've read all of this before. Like I said, I think it is true but I don't know what his functional strength is. I've never see his strength in the Thai clinh, boxing clinch, wrestling/BJJ grappling etc

His power is questionable as are ALL of his intangiables which you guys seem to assume he has.

Nevertheless, Bruce isn't in the same stratosphere as the fighters you think he is.

[Canibus81]

Nevertheless, Bruce isn't in the same stratosphere as the fighters you think he is.

In your opoinon he isn't.

[Nuke]

I just find it funny that out of ALL the people in the world that he has met none of them question him as a fighter or his ability, its always some young internet moron who thinks he knows everything. With that said I have no idea how he would fair against someone like BJ nor do I care its a waste of time arguing about it.

[achillesthegreat]

In your opoinon he isn't.

It's not an opinion. It's a fact. I'm talking about proven fighters on tape.

[Nuke]

Without video evidence I think Dioxippus was overrated!!!

[zarman]

I just find it funny that out of ALL the people in the world that he has met none of them question him as a fighter or his ability, its always some young internet moron who thinks he knows everything. With that said I have no idea how he would fair against someone like BJ nor do I care its a waste of time arguing about it.

i agree but it is fun to wonder

[cross_trainer]

Without video evidence I think Dioxippus was overrated!!!

Seconded.

Then again, Dioxippus has a verified Olympic gold under (worse than) MMA rules. Bruce...does not.

[cross_trainer]

I just find it funny that out of ALL the people in the world that he has met none of them question him as a fighter or his ability, its always some young internet moron who thinks he knows everything. With that said I have no idea how he would fair against someone like BJ nor do I care its a waste of time arguing about it.

Lewis believed that he was a great theorist and a so-so fighter. Kinda like the Cus D'Amato of martial arts, only much tougher physically. Several champions apparently worked with him but didn't spar.

I'm not questioning Bruce's MA credentials. He was a great martial artist. The question is whether he could beat a guy who's proved himself repeatedly in full-contact competition against the best in the world, and I don't see the evidence. :huh

[rekcutnevets]

To truly understand Lee you have to dismiss any correlation between his scripted movie footage, and his actual fighting philosophy. I know there is some hinting here and there, but you must realize there was a story to follow. Lee wanted to make money as an actor. Lee wanted to fix what was wrong with traditional martial arts as a teacher.

Lee's innovations were very advanced to his immediate peers. Lee stressed more realistic fighting simulation, such as sparring over forms. Lee had no urge to perform in competition, because competitions were subject to rules. There are no ways of trying Lee's principals without it taking place regulation free.

Lee's emphasis was on intercepting the opponents attack. Intercepting the opponent's attack may be with a finger jab to the eye, followed by a throat strike if the opening were provided. The interception may involve a side kick to the knee, followed by the throat or eye shot(s).

There were no ways to freely practice Lee's teachings in a controlled setting. MMA competitions would only provide certain situational aspects. BJJ grappling would be quite a hindrance if Lee's initial techniques failed.

Lee's style was not based on two combatants facing off in an mma match. His style may have evolved even faster if given the chance.

Martial arts styles have always tried to deal with matters of circumstance. Many arts limit the number of circumstances possible. Jeet Kune Do attempted to encompass all. Jeet Kunde Do is held back because of the limits its original master had yet to reach beyond. Lee had not faced bjj, for example. Part of me wishes that Helio and Lee could have crossed paths.

I am really drunk right now, and can't complete my post as I would like.

My apologies.

[2ironmt]

I've read all of this before. Like I said, I think it is true but I don't know what his functional strength is. I've never see his strength in the Thai clinh, boxing clinch, wrestling/BJJ grappling etc

His power is questionable as are ALL of his intangiables which you guys seem to assume he has.

Nevertheless, Bruce isn't in the same stratosphere as the fighters you think he is.
if you beleive the article above, how could a man who could knock someone against a wall with a one inch punch have "questionable power?"

[Dantes]

:lol: puff puff pass that shit on.

Dynamite Kid, you're obviously a huge fan of Lee, but BJ would fuck his shit up. Magic doesn't exist...just training and fighting to become great. Lee was a movie star, not a fighter.

[gungfu]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

bruce lee looking like an amateur on the heavy bag

hands at his waist, chin out, little speed and power



lol @ his so called "elite" boxing skills

fact is guys like bj penn have legit pro records and have proven themselves, all lee has is stories and hear'say, it's not like he couldn't prove himself when he was alive, back then they had boxing, muay thai, judo etc heck he could have even done vale tudo tournamets in brazil if he wanted.


I've mentioned this before on other forums when people criticize Lee's punching on the heavybag.

Aside from the fact that you cannot judge a person's whole set of skills based on one particular piece of footage, I also have to mention that Lee was a big fan of Jack Dempseys - even wrote to him asking for his autograph - and the footage is identical to how Dempsey punched on the heavybag in some footages.

Do your own research if unconvinced.

Also, I've briefly had a scan of the thread and I want to also mention that Lee getting choked out by Gene LeBell is bullshit. Not even LeBell mentions that story and I've met Lebell and he's one of the most gregarious don't give a fuck what I say kinda guys out there. He's said some things about picking Bruce up and not letting him go in a playful manner, so choking out someone like Lee and him not saying anything about it is rather unlikley.

However, I have heard rumours that he did choke out Steven Seagal. Though I think that's also just a rumour also.

[gungfu]

Lewis believed that he was a great theorist and a so-so fighter. Kinda like the Cus D'Amato of martial arts, only much tougher physically. Several champions apparently worked with him but didn't spar.

I'm not questioning Bruce's MA credentials. He was a great martial artist. The question is whether he could beat a guy who's proved himself repeatedly in full-contact competition against the best in the world, and I don't see the evidence.


As usual in these kind of threads, there's a whole bunch of half-truths and outright falsehoods regarding Lee's story.

As for sparring, I've spoken to another student of Lee's - Ted Wong - and he's mentioned that Norris did spar with Lee, and Lee left him 'red-faced'. This is an eye witness account.

And remember, even Mike Stone, another of Bruce's first pro martial arts students, once said that egos in the martial arts community goes a long way, and it has to be protected even with some revisionist history. He mentioned this when asked why guys like Lewis and Norris said they never sparred with Bruce, when he knew they did.

Guys like Joey Orbillo and James DeMille, who both have extensive boxing backgrounds, have also mentioned that even when they went to knock Bruce's head off for real they could never get him he was so fast in his movements, and whenever they attacked, they were left opposed and Bruce would flick them around the ears or just tap them on their foreheads. Or rest with a 'peacock knuckle' under their throats or into their necks, as Ed Hart, a known street fighter once recounted.

[gungfu]

Dynamite Kid, you're obviously a huge fan of Lee, but BJ would fuck his shit up. Magic doesn't exist...just training and fighting to become great. Lee was a movie star, not a fighter.

People who use the movie star/ actor line always come across as rather retarded simply because it shows a complete lack of knowledge about the subject matter.

[Serenata]

...Lee was a movie star, not a fighter.

Please do some research, he was both ;)

[gungfu]

As for the BJ Penn vs Bruce Lee fantasy fight, well, it's just that. But for me, the whole bunch of 'what if' questions are rather dull and pointless because of the simple fact that both are from different arenas of combat, and from different times separated by about 3 decades.

The fact is though, Bruce trained to fight for no rules. BJ Penn does not. It's that simple.
In the ring, you have to favour Penn. Outside of it, I'd favour Lee.

But one has also to consider that Penn has the advantage of over 30 years of martial arts progression - whether in technique or training method etc etc...and Bruce was pretty much on his own in his experimentation and advancement of the martial arts. What is ironic is the fact that modern day Mixed Martial artists have benefited enormously from the progressive ideas that Bruce Lee was bringing to the fore - over 30 years ago.

[gungfu]

Any info on Elms cross_trainer?

I wouldn't put too much into Bruce's early foray into boxing, given that it was a schoolboy's tournament in Hong Kong. And to call it amatuer boxing is really giving it too much credence since it was basically any schoolkid who wanted to lace up the gloves and go and fight the next door's school.

Gary Elms was the King George V's champion, apparently and had been for a few successive years. Bruce beat him shortly after taking up wing chun. Bruce was still a novice at this time and I'm doubtful that he even had boxing skills at this point - some fighting skills maybe.

Last I heard was that Elms is in the UK and was in jail. This was back in the mid 90s. No one has ever interviewed him to my knowledge. But one guy who was there...Ralf Klausnitzer, has spoken of the fight previously.

[gungfu]

Your talking about in the late 60's and early 70's. Camera's at that time were extremely expensive and some high profile events weren't even on camera. There were no MMA at that time, so the only thing was either challenge matches or street fights. Now your entitled to your oponion, but I don't understand why it's so hard for you to believe that he could handle himself in a MMA fight when he already had tons of physical gifts and a wide span of martials knowledge and IQ, especially when you claimed to know as much as you do. There's nothing wrong with being Skeptical but too Skeptical is not good because people like that usually don't wanna be fooled some reason or another. You need proof but you don't need proof for everything.


Exactly. Good points. It baffles me that anyone would think there would be actual fighting footage of Lee floating around. It was completley different time when techology didn't mean a camera on every mobile phone and CCTV was recording your ass 24/7.

[MattMattMatt]

I know this is a discussion forum, but this thread is totally pointless. Some people will vehemently defend Bruce Lee no matter what, and when pressed to find out what their evidence is for his skills beyond the silver screen, it is always of the form..."well, I knew a guy who said he knew someone who once sparred with a guy who had seen Bruce once". The opposite applies too, those who seem desperate to discredit him cite the fact that there is no evidence of his true abilities, if that is the case then give it a rest - there is nothing to compare and it is all just meaningless conjecture.

No one here can say how good Bruce was, or how he would fare with today's techniques, there is simply no real concrete evidence and far too much speculative evidence. It is simply impossible to make a fair judgement. The absolute most we can say is that he was well trained and perhaps physically gifted, but as we learn time and time again in boxing, the intangibles make it almost impossible to tell the truth until someone is truly tested. How many boxers have been touted as the next big thing and then only to be found to have a 'glass jaw' or quit on their stool becuase it all got too much? We still get it wrong when we have access to almost all the footage we want, what makes us think we are going to get it right when there is no more than a few seconds of fuzzy sparing to go on?

[achillesthegreat]

if you beleive the article above, how could a man who could knock someone against a wall with a one inch punch have "questionable power?"

because I question the peoples assessment of him. it's always romanticised. they assessed him in a time where his words were mainstream and gospel. others didn't have the same platform as him. he was great at publicising himself, i give him credit for that. it's only until recently that most of people i know thought seagal, van damme etc were the best fighters in the world. the introduction of mma has helped dispel alot of myths.

plus, from the videos i've seen of his one inch punches, they look good but i could knock people back into chairs with short/one inch punches.

[achillesthegreat]

The HK amateur tournament was 3x1 min rounds so it really makes me wonder.

There are also conflicting reports as to how the fight went down - won by ko, decision etc

[196osh]

Outside of it, I'd favour Lee.



Never watch any NHB fights then?

[MaliSlamusrex]

There is a slight problem with this argument, MMA has developed and is developing so quickly it's almost impossible to make an argument, at one time the BJJ fighters like Rikson ruled, then the wrestlers came along, then fighters like Sakuraba thought fuck it I am going to use everything and try new things like the kartwheel down kick to win fight. Now the sport still develops and new Judo throws and skills are added to MMA every day.

To say Bruce Lee has the skill of an average MMA fighter now is unfair because at the time there was almost no classical martial arts in the USA at the time of Bruce Lee, Bruce Lee took traditional Martial arts to the USA called it wing Chung did not but any barriers on to it and developed a no hold barred MMA fighing style. If Bruce Lee would have fought a boxer, a Muay Thai or Judo guy he could adapt because he was one of the first guys ever to study more than one martial art.There is no doubt he had skills no one could even imagine..... well in his own time



He recorded training footage at home but never wanted any of his amazing feats in other martial arts to be seen. Yeah right.

He was on a film set but NO ONE thought it would be cool to catch him taking on a thai boxer. Yeah right.

The guy is completely unproven on the level of genuine MA or MMA. All you Bruce fanatics are assuming he has the stamina, assuming he has power, assuming he has a chin, assuming he has heart and assuming he has all the intangiables. The guy looks good but his functional ability in a 5MMA/12boxing round fight is unknown.

All I know is the guy dedicated his life to MA and his boxing stinks, he has pretty much no high level grappling and it all comes down to his kicks. I barely see any elbows or knees from him. Boxing, Muay Thai and Judo were around and they are effective arts but I don't see him mastering them.

To be honest, his son looks less talented but technically better from what I've seen. He seems to have Muay Thai experience and actually throws good strikes. When he fought fancy it was for the cameras.

Bruce Lee has potential but probably no more than we thought of Brock or Pudzianowski. He's a specimen so it would be interesting to see him try it. HOWEVER I have absolutely no doubt BJ Penn would dominate him at everything except maybe kicks.

[gungfu]

because I question the peoples assessment of him. it's always romanticised. they assessed him in a time where his words were mainstream and gospel. others didn't have the same platform as him. he was great at publicising himself, i give him credit for that. it's only until recently that most of people i know thought seagal, van damme etc were the best fighters in the world. the introduction of mma has helped dispel alot of myths.

plus, from the videos i've seen of his one inch punches, they look good but i could knock people back into chairs with short/one inch punches.


I think you have fallen into the 'romanticised' picture of Bruce Lee yourself.

Bruce Lee's words were never 'gospel' nor 'mainstream' during his time. If anything, the majority of martial artists were against or blase about what he was saying, and only a minority appreciated that he had something to offer. It was only subsequently, as time wore on, that appreciation grew.

Most people at the time, especially in the US only knew Bruce from the Green Hornet, and not that he was some martial arts pioneer. The fact that he even had a platform was because editors of Black Belt and other martial arts magazines were impressed enough with him due to the exhibitions he gave and through word of mouth. He had no singular unique platform that many other martial artists had. Indeed, because he wasn't touring the tournament circuit either, he had even less of a platform than say the likes of Norris, Wallace, Stone, Lewis and alike.


People can say what they want about Bruce Lee, but if it's on a forum the chances are that the information and judgement given are nothing short of ill informed or totally bullshit. The reality of the matter is that people who criticise actually know very little about Bruce Lee, and are using only a smidgeon of correct information - if that - mixed with all kinds of hearsay and rumours they heard down the pub and on other forums to make an assessment. Basically, how can anyone make a balanced and informed opinion when the background knowledge itself is unbalanced by the disregard for actual facts?

[gungfu]

Never watch any NHB fights then?

I watch everything. Thanks for asking.

[196osh]

I watch everything. Thanks for asking.

Surprising in no rule fights no fighter that fought anything like Bruce Lee ever got near winning then, considering his street fighting prowess.

[gungfu]

Surprising in no rule fights no fighter that fought anything like Bruce Lee ever got near winning then, considering his street fighting prowess.


How is it a surprise? And what does 'fought...like Bruce Lee' even mean? Is that even possible? Only Bruce Lee can ever fight like Bruce Lee.

Anyhoo, sorry, I'm not really into fantasy fights. Lee could and should be able to handle himself pretty well in a fight is pretty much all I know. I couldn't give a toss about anyone else who 'fought...like Bruce Lee' and got his ass kicked in a NHB fight.

[196osh]

:lol:

[J_Roth]

Bruce lee sent a Judo Champion flying into the wall with 1 kick. The man was EXTREMELY powerful. His I.Q. on fighting and him mastering the human body the way he did would have been to much for any opponent IMO. Bruce Lee didn't have to have pro fights to have proven himself. He's considered the greatest Martial Artist of the 20th century.

You don't get that label by being a sucker. His teaching's and philosphy's are still relevant today. He's still being studied by millions (including myself) and also many fighters. Jeet Kune Do is very difficult and not everyone can master it. Fighters like Luke Cummo & Ben Saunders study it. BJ Penn is a great fighter, but I would never wanna see him with a Bruce Lee (fantasy speaking of course) BJ would get kicked in his leg then punched in his face faster than he can say "Just Scrap" then he'd be unconscious. Comparing a fictional character like Rocky to Bruce Lee is absolutely absurd.Since we are going to believe everything in the movies, why don't we just agree that Arnold beat the Predator in real life? Stallone was a great boxer as well and when he sparred a low level boxer he didn't get his ass whipped either. Elijah Wood really did deliver the one ring and I've already survived a zombie apocalypse. BTW I was the camera man in Tomb Raider when Jolie showered. :dead

[gungfu]

Since we are going to believe everything in the movies, why don't we just agree that Arnold beat the Predator in real life? Stallone was a great boxer as well and when he sparred a low level boxer he didn't get his ass whipped either. Elijah Wood really did deliver the one ring and I've already survived a zombie apocalypse. BTW I was the camera man in Tomb Raider when Jolie showered. :dead


I'll ask you this about Bruce Lee and his fighting.

Do you know about the challenge match he had with a judo guy at the Seattle YMCA?

Actually, it's a trick question. I know you have no idea.

[196osh]

Its amusing. Challenge match with Judo guy. :shock:

I mean getting choked out by Gene Lebell, was it that time?

[gungfu]

Its amusing. Challenge match with Judo guy. :shock:

I mean getting choked out by Gene Lebell, was it that time?


Another nobody talking through his ass.

Considering that Judo Gene has the greatest respect for Bruce as a martial artist, and the fact that he has never said he ever choked out Bruce, kinda makes your posturing kinda redundant, doesn't it?

:good

Hey, you're in Glasgow, right? Go find a dude called Tommy Carruthers, and then get back to me and tell me what you found out about Bruce Lee's martial art skills.

[Dynamite Kid]

Since we are going to believe everything in the movies, why don't we just agree that Arnold beat the Predator in real life? Stallone was a great boxer as well and when he sparred a low level boxer he didn't get his ass whipped either. Elijah Wood really did deliver the one ring and I've already survived a zombie apocalypse. BTW I was the camera man in Tomb Raider when Jolie showered. :dead

I'm not referencing movies when talking about Lee's capabilities. When I say Lee sent an Olympic Judo champion flying into the wall, I mean he did that at an expo. The man said so himself in a documentary. Curse of the Dragon, if I remember correctly. When experiencing Lee's power, he said to himself "I'm a world Judo champion, this shouldn't be happening to me". If you wanna believe all your little fictional characters that you mentioned really happened then that's fine with me. But IMO you should have yourself checked.

[Dynamite Kid]

Its amusing. Challenge match with Judo guy. :shock:

I mean getting choked out by Gene Lebell, was it that time?

You're a good poster 196. Stop talking shit that you don't have the slightest clue about.

[196osh]

Another nobody talking through his ass.

Considering that Judo Gene has the greatest respect for Bruce as a martial artist, and the fact that he has never said he ever choked out Bruce, kinda makes your posturing kinda redundant, doesn't it?

:lol:

But your a somebody right? Your opinions hold more merit than mine or anybody else who thinks Bruce Lee had better idea's than he was a fighter?

Bruce Lee from every, and I mean every video that has ever been posted of him does not show extra ordinary skills, greater than kickboxers like Dekkers, Por Pramuk etc, infact every single video he looks vastly inferior to them.

His grappling is non existant and in a grappling match he would get tooled by anybody blue belt or above

Because somebody has good idea's and their are reports of him winning fights against non world class fighters by people who are students of him, should outweigh the fact that all video evidence shows he wasn't some unreal superhuman machine kickboxer.

Let alone being able to get near a world class grappler with that wide stance.

Its insane.

Like the Rickson Gracie rumours on steroids.


Hey, you're in Glasgow, right? Go find a dude called Tommy Carruthers, and then get back to me and tell me what you found out about Bruce Lee's martial art skills.


im not some noob I know who he is and by all accounts 1. I wouldn't be welcome in his gym and 2. He is a douchebag.

[gungfu]

:lol:

But your a somebody right? Your opinions hold more merit than mine or anybody else who thinks Bruce Lee had better idea's than he was a fighter?

Bruce Lee from every, and I mean every video that has ever been posted of him does not show extra ordinary skills, greater than kickboxers like Dekkers, Por Pramuk etc, infact every single video he looks vastly inferior to them.

His grappling is non existant and in a grappling match he would get tooled by anybody blue belt or above

Because somebody has good idea's and their are reports of him winning fights against non world class fighters by people who are students of him, should outweigh the fact that all video evidence shows he wasn't some unreal superhuman machine kickboxer.

Let alone being able to get near a world class grappler with that wide stance.

Its insane.

Like the Rickson Gracie rumours on steroids.



im not some noob I know who he is and by all accounts 1. I wouldn't be welcome in his gym and 2. He is a douchebag.


- Done the research mate - unlike you - spoke with some of his students, friends and family. In Hong Kong and the US. So I do know what I'm on about. But, you, you dinnae ken shite, pal. Obviously.

Had lunch with Dan Inosanto (know him and his rep?) about a year and half ago. I expect he would say that you know shite as well. Funny how he's so respected amongst the world's martial artists, and yet he still calls Bruce his Sifu. Hmmm.

- Tommy would fucking cave your fucking head in a second, mate. And you know it.

[ozziebattler]

No speed doesn't kill. Speed that is NURTURED kills. There are TONS of fast guys but with out the right training it doesn't mean shit.

To be honest, Lees kicks look quite fast but that is because they are fancy looking. His Wing Chun strikes look fast but that is because of how the strike looks i.e. they are often pathetic chops to the neck with little recoil. When he punches properly on the bag he doesn't look like Leonard, Ali, Pac or Jones.


Agree..

People like Bruce lee and a 80's early 90's Van Damme look unstoppable in there movies....Great physiques, great flexibilty,ridiculous speed and crazy power..

Though both have no 110% proof of ever backing up there on screen presence....

Never really that impressed by Bruce lee..If i weighed 50kgs ringing wet and devouted my life to fast fairy tap kicks and chops to the neck i would look exactly the same as Mr Lee...

He was at best a very athletic martial arts enthusiast..He never competed in any serious competition to prove he was the real deal...It aint hard to enter top flight tournaments even in his time....

I just show a fedor highlight clip to my Lee nuthugging mates to shut them up...

No 1inch punches or whatever else Lee used in his bullshit fightscenes..

[gungfu]

Agree..

People like Bruce lee and a 80's early 90's Van Damme look unstoppable in there movies....Great physiques, great flexibilty,ridiculous speed and crazy power..

Though both have no 110% proof of ever backing up there on screen presence....

Never really that impressed by Bruce lee..If i weighed 50kgs ringing wet and devouted my life to fast fairy tap kicks and chops to the neck i would look exactly the same as Mr Lee...



He was at best a very athletic martial arts enthusiast..He never competed in any serious competition to prove he was the real deal...It aint hard to enter top flight tournaments even in his time....

I just show a fedor highlight clip to my Lee nuthugging mates to shut them up...

No 1inch punches or whatever else Lee used in his bullshit fightscenes..

Jesse Glover, one of Bruce's original students, rates Tommy Carruthers as the person closest to Bruce's martial arts abilities. But Bruce was still better all round.

For reference, here's Tommy Carruthers:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

But you know, videos blah blah blah...unconvinced. Fake. Bwahaha.

The dude is still alive. You can go talk with him or ask for a demo. It's that simple.

[MaliSlamusrex]

A lot of people are saying Bruce Lee couldn't fight because he was in movies, that's like saying Jet Li can't fight because he is in films.

Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do is fighting system developed by Bruce Lee, basically the principle that traditional martial arts do not help in the real world, rather that fighting is a combination of Kicking, Punching, Trapping, & Grappling. They guy developed the MMA style, he might not be as good as Ktuzo Mifune at Judo, Joe Louis at boxing, Rikson Gracie at BJJ, motobu Choki at Karate. But he understood the principle that traditional martial arts were limited and practiced all of them so.... the bottom line is no one would really fight Bruce Lee because they were world class at one thing and Bruce Lee was good at everything,.

People in this forum have no idea what martial arts were before Bruce Lee, and how good and a complete fighter he was at the time. The bottom line is he was a fighter 10-20 years before his time.

[196osh]

- Done the research mate - unlike you - spoke with some of his students, friends and family. In Hong Kong and the US. So I do know what I'm on about. But, you, you dinnae ken shite, pal. Obviously.

Had lunch with Dan Inosanto (know him and his rep?) about a year and half ago. I expect he would say that you know shite as well. Funny how he's so respected amongst the world's martial artists, and yet he still calls Bruce his Sifu. Hmmm.

Dan Inosanto is a Bruce Lee student, thee Bruce Lee student.

Worlds martial artists are all well and good, thats fine. People who can fight and have fought and have proved they can fight repeatedly are more reputable than some stories garnerd by people who look up to Lee or have seen him beat up somebody.

Widdow gave an example of why second hand reports of fights are often guff: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

I suggest you try to understand more clearly what I am saying:

There is no evidence that Lee was on a level with world class operators, beating up guys who just are not on a level physically with him does not prove how good he was neither does other random gym matches.

I have seen no evidence in any book I have read to suggest that he beat any world class kickboxer, in any of these sorts of matches either.

Do you?

If so exellent. I would love to see it, hell I dont give a shit about being proven wrong.




- Tommy would fucking cave your fucking head in a second, mate. And you know it.


:huh

So? What does that have to do with what i said?

Has Tommy ever been in a fight with a world class fighter?

There in lies the difference. I don't have an angle to work. No preconceived notions or whatever. I have seen Tommy fight and no doubt he would do great vs untrained guys, and from what I have seen his multi attacker style semi contact sparring is not a bad idea at all but thats vastly different to the sorts of exploits I have seen from other guys.

Does not mean he is a great fighter or that any of the video's I have seen a lot seems highly impractical.

[ozziebattler]

Jesse Glover, one of Bruce's original students, rates Tommy Carruthers as the person closest to Bruce's martial arts abilities. But Bruce was still better all round.

For reference, here's Tommy Carruthers:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

But you know, videos blah blah blah...unconvinced. Fake. Bwahaha.

The dude is still alive. You can go talk with him or ask for a demo. It's that simple.

i he is ever in Australia tell him to say hi..

Mate the only videos i want to see are either in a cage,street or ring...

Thats where its proven....

I used to play pro rugby and also boxed in my teens and now doing MMA and over there years have come across blokes who are absolutely legendary when training,practicing etc...

But then it all goes to shit in the ring or on the field etc...

My whole point is the only results that matter is come fight or game time...

And seeing you dont have any actual proof of Bruce achieving anything great inside a ring etc then the case is closed..

Verdict BRUCE WASNT A GREAT FIGHTER...

Awesome martial arts practitioner????YES INDEED..

[MaliSlamusrex]

What proof do you have he wasn't a great fighter?

i he is ever in Australia tell him to say hi..

Mate the only videos i want to see are either in a cage,street or ring...

Thats where its proven....

I used to play pro rugby and also boxed in my teens and now doing MMA and over there years have come across blokes who are absolutely legendary when training,practicing etc...

But then it all goes to shit in the ring or on the field etc...

My whole point is the only results that matter is come fight or game time...

And seeing you dont have any actual proof of Bruce achieving anything great inside a ring etc then the case is closed..

Verdict BRUCE WASNT A GREAT FIGHTER...

Awesome martial arts practitioner????YES INDEED..

[196osh]

What proof do you have he wasn't a great fighter?

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

So if nobody was saying Lee was a great fighter, then nobody would say he is not. As it would be inherantly pointless.

[MaliSlamusrex]

Bruce Lee is the father of Martial arts as we know it in the West, everyone knows he could fight, perhaps the reason no one feels the need to mention it is because of his legacy.


The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

So if nobody was saying Lee was a great fighter, then nobody would say he is not. As it would be inherantly pointless.

[196osh]

Bruce Lee is the father of Martial arts as we know it in the West, everyone knows he could fight, perhaps the reason no one feels the need to mention it is because of his legacy.

Bruce Lee is not the father of martial arts that i am into in the west by any means. Bruce Lee had no impact on Grappling, boxing or thai boxing. He inspired people through films.

But to suggest JKD is somehow a) widley used/accessable or b) the begginnings of cross training on a wide scale is false.

Knowledge, technical ability and philosophies are great. But they are not the same as being a world class fighter. They just arn't.

[MaliSlamusrex]

Yes Bruce Lee was the father of martial arts in the West, most MMA fighters my coaches and Sensei and Dana White have gone on record and saying that.

the first point I want to make is you have never done nor have any idea about JKD.

For me knowledge and technical ability develop technique and that's what makes a fighter.

Bruce Lee is not the father of martial arts that i am into in the west by any means. Bruce Lee had no impact on Grappling, boxing or thai boxing. He inspired people through films.

But to suggest JKD is somehow a) widley used/accessable or b) the begginnings of cross training on a wide scale is false.

Knowledge, technical ability and philosophies are great. But they are not the same as being a world class fighter. They just arn't.

[196osh]

Yes Bruce Lee was the father of martial arts in the West, most MMA fighters my coaches and Sensei and Dana White have gone on record and saying that.

the first point I want to make is you have never done nor have any idea about JKD.

Ive never done it, but ive read up on it and watched perlenty of demo's.

EDITTTT: Most MMA fighters???????


For me knowledge and technical ability develop technique and that's what makes a fighter.


:lol:

Thats insane. Fighting is what makes a fighter! Fighting and proving you can fight.

[gungfu]

i he is ever in Australia tell him to say hi..

Mate the only videos i want to see are either in a cage,street or ring...

Thats where its proven....

I used to play pro rugby and also boxed in my teens and now doing MMA and over there years have come across blokes who are absolutely legendary when training,practicing etc...



But then it all goes to shit in the ring or on the field etc...


My whole point is the only results that matter is come fight or game time...

And seeing you dont have any actual proof of Bruce achieving anything great inside a ring etc then the case is closed..



Verdict BRUCE WASNT A GREAT FIGHTER...

Awesome martial arts practitioner????YES INDEED..


Then you do understand that you then have to define what a fighter is, right?

A fighter is someone with a proven record, I would assume your comeback would be, right?

Ok, so is a boxer a better fighter than an MMA guy, and vice versa? Do you see the point I'm making?

They are different disciplines, and proven record or not, you cannot compare how good a fighter is against someone else from a different displine. This is the case with martial arts guys who do not enter competitions, but can, obviously handle themselves in a fight.

Does that make sense? In regards to Bruce Lee being a fighter - only an idiot would consider he would be lacking in skills to potentially handle himself well in a fight. Just don't get into the mindset of Bruce Lee beating everyone on the planet - only Bruce Lee detractors and haters seem to think this way. It's kinda stupid.

[MaliSlamusrex]

:lol:

Thats insane. Fighting is what makes a fighter! Fighting and proving you can fight.

That's not true developing technique and skills make fighters, who cares how anyone fights?

[codeman99998]

Thats insane. Fighting is what makes a fighter! Fighting and proving you can fight.

I wonder how Lee would do against a Prime Tank Abbot.

[MaliSlamusrex]

Ive never done it, but ive read up on it and watched perlenty of demo's.

EDITTTT: Most MMA fighters???????

.

Find out what JKD is and then answer that question yourself.

Every single MMA fighter is training JKD every day.

[codeman99998]

They are different disciplines, and proven record or not, you cannot compare how good a fighter is against someone else from a different displine. This is the case with martial arts guys who do not enter competitions, but can, obviously handle themselves in a fight.


No. I think most of the board should be able to agree that proven MMA disciplines (and MMA itself as a discipline) obviously beat other disciplines, all things equal. This is what UFC 1 was about.

There are lesssons to be learned from the evolution of MMA that can help us in our judgements here. UFCs 1-4 showed that it is almost impossible to beat someone in a fight if they are a good brazilian jujitsu practitioner and you have little to no training in defense against brazilian ju jitsu. Now, at the top levels of MMA, even the worst of the worst ground fighters have experience defending themselves on the ground. Lee probably had none.

We also learned from early UFCs that most of the fancy shit you see in movies that looks awesome doesn't work in real combat situations. Effective Westernl boxing/kickboxing and Muy Thai became the dominant striking arts because they worked when the fancy movie stuff didn't. I'm not saying that JKD is about 360 kicks or whatever, I'm just saying that we learned movie techniques work in movies, and how well they work in movies clearly had no effect on how well they worked in a NHB situation.

Later we came to see that (though, this should have been obvious) even the most skilled of the skilled fighters on the planet can lose to another guy who is nearly equally skilled but bigger and stronger. Penn is an extremely gifted athlete (I know the discussion may have moved from Penn a bit, but I just want to reiterate) at 155 lbs while Bruce weighed 135? We shouldnt even be talking about him against Penn, when Torres , Faber, or Aldo would be fairer comparisons.

[196osh]

Find out what JKD is and then answer that question yourself.

Every single MMA fighter is training JKD every day.

Cross training is not JKD.

Hand trapping? Groin strikes? Side on stances? Wing chung techniques?

[MaliSlamusrex]

Not going to answer until you read up on JKD.

Cross training is not JKD.

Hand trapping? Groin strikes? Side on stances? Wing chung techniques?

[codeman99998]

Find out what JKD is and then answer that question yourself.

Every single MMA fighter is training JKD every day.

Bullshit. If you want to say "Everyone trains in my martial art because all my martial art is everything that is awesome mixed together" then your martial art is nothing at all. It's just a word.

But shit, I guess if Georges St. Pierre is a JKD fighter and not a wrestler I must have been viewing him wrong. I wouldn't say Anderson is a Muy Thai fighter, JKD is probably more right on. Shinya Aoki is a jujitsu fighter you say? I think JKD is a more accurate description of what he does too.

:patsch

Pretty much every mixed martial artist out there today is ACTUALLY training in some capacity in wrestling and ground fighting, btw.

[196osh]

Not going to answer until you read up on JKD.

Philosophy is different from practice.

Either that or the term JKD is brutally redundant.

[achillesthegreat]

There is a slight problem with this argument, MMA has developed and is developing so quickly it's almost impossible to make an argument, at one time the BJJ fighters like Rikson ruled, then the wrestlers came along, then fighters like Sakuraba thought fuck it I am going to use everything and try new things like the kartwheel down kick to win fight. Now the sport still develops and new Judo throws and skills are added to MMA every day.

To say Bruce Lee has the skill of an average MMA fighter now is unfair because at the time there was almost no classical martial arts in the USA at the time of Bruce Lee, Bruce Lee took traditional Martial arts to the USA called it wing Chung did not but any barriers on to it and developed a no hold barred MMA fighing style. If Bruce Lee would have fought a boxer, a Muay Thai or Judo guy he could adapt because he was one of the first guys ever to study more than one martial art.There is no doubt he had skills no one could even imagine..... well in his own time

MMA is evolving but Bruce doesn't even have the skills of a B class fighter. He hasn't got the skills of a Kenny Florian.

He did study alot of arts but he still just looked like a striker. He did study alot of arts but it didn't make him look invincible.

[achillesthegreat]

I think you have fallen into the 'romanticised' picture of Bruce Lee yourself.

Bruce Lee's words were never 'gospel' nor 'mainstream' during his time. If anything, the majority of martial artists were against or blase about what he was saying, and only a minority appreciated that he had something to offer. It was only subsequently, as time wore on, that appreciation grew.

Most people at the time, especially in the US only knew Bruce from the Green Hornet, and not that he was some martial arts pioneer. The fact that he even had a platform was because editors of Black Belt and other martial arts magazines were impressed enough with him due to the exhibitions he gave and through word of mouth. He had no singular unique platform that many other martial artists had. Indeed, because he wasn't touring the tournament circuit either, he had even less of a platform than say the likes of Norris, Wallace, Stone, Lewis and alike.


People can say what they want about Bruce Lee, but if it's on a forum the chances are that the information and judgement given are nothing short of ill informed or totally bullshit. The reality of the matter is that people who criticise actually know very little about Bruce Lee, and are using only a smidgeon of correct information - if that - mixed with all kinds of hearsay and rumours they heard down the pub and on other forums to make an assessment. Basically, how can anyone make a balanced and informed opinion when the background knowledge itself is unbalanced by the disregard for actual facts?

Rubbish, the guy was on TV and on the movie screens. He was mainstream and well known so his words would be taken well. Just like (until very recently) people worshipped Seagal, Van Damme etc

Bruce dedicated himself to martial arts and improving himself physically. It was impressive but not impressive enough to beat a BJ Penn. Let's make sure we keep things in perspective.

I know alot about Bruce. I'm not just spouting off shit and making my mind up on a single video etc I've been watching and reading about Lee for years.

I like the new line from the Lee fanatics. They argue that we don't know him or understand him.

[gungfu]

Dan Inosanto is a Bruce Lee student, thee Bruce Lee student.

Worlds martial artists are all well and good, thats fine. People who can fight and have fought and have proved they can fight repeatedly are more reputable than some stories garnerd by people who look up to Lee or have seen him beat up somebody.


Widdow gave an example of why second hand reports of fights are often guff: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

I suggest you try to understand more clearly what I am saying:

There is no evidence that Lee was on a level with world class operators, beating up guys who just are not on a level physically with him does not prove how good he was neither does other random gym matches.


I have seen no evidence in any book I have read to suggest that he beat any world class kickboxer, in any of these sorts of matches either.



Do you?



If so exellent. I would love to see it, hell I dont give a shit about being proven wrong.


So? What does that have to do with what i said?



Has Tommy ever been in a fight with a world class fighter?


There in lies the difference. I don't have an angle to work. No preconceived notions or whatever. I have seen Tommy fight and no doubt he would do great vs untrained guys, and from what I have seen his multi attacker style semi contact sparring is not a bad idea at all but thats vastly different to the sorts of exploits I have seen from other guys.



Does not mean he is a great fighter or that any of the video's I have seen a lot seems highly impractical.


I really don't think you're even attempting to read the subtleties of what I'm writing.

Dan Inosanto.

The reason i mentioned him is that he is considered a legend in the martial arts field. That he still considers Bruce Lee as his sifu ie, his teacher and senior, after all this time, and with what he knows, is something to be considered in terms of respect. To put it in the most basic of terms, the respect that Guro Dan has from other legends of martial arts, which includes MMA guys btw, stems from the knowledge he himself gained from Bruce Lee. Do you see what I'm getting at? And I could so easily have mentioned the likes of Bruce's students Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, and Joe Lewis, if you think people with fight records are the only ones to be considered as fighters.

And it isn't like the case of Cus D'Amato or other famous trainers and their fighters, Bruce Lee was a trainer who trained with his students. He didn't sit them down in a classroom ffs, but went toe to toe to teaching them skills and techniques. It was practical training...Cus and Angelo didn't lace up the gloves and sparred with their fighters or go on runs for example. That's the basic difference most people are not getting. Martial arts training, especially with guys like Norris, Stone or Lewis were practical, not theoretical. These guys have huge fighter egos, and going for training and learning how to fight from a guy who couldn't is just fucking ludicrous. The fact that they did go to someone without a fight record, a little Chinese guy who didn't enter competitions, takes a huge plate of humble pie to begin with, but then to return for further teachings speaks more than any Bruce Lee hater can ever yap on some forum.

Understand now?

As for Tommy, it's obvious that you just cannot be convinced that a fighter does not need a 'fight record' to be considered a good fighter. If that's the case, I think you ought to consider match-ups with people who are in the same disciplines, rather than try to compare people from different fields of expertise and getting all hatery, especially on someone and something it is obvious that you don't have much background knowledge to make a balanced judgement on. Ignorance cannot be utilised as a show of knowledge, I'm afraid.

You say you know of Tommy Carruthers, and I've put some videos up, and I've related to first hand records which suggest that he's considered by someone who's the most alike to Bruce Lee he's come across, but still, he's nothing much because he's never fought in competitions. Jeez. Whatever, man.

[196osh]

You are missing the point.

I never said Carruthers was nothing much, ever. To be considerd a world class fighter then yes you need a record, 100%.

To suggest that I don't think Lee could handle himself is not the case, and I never suggested it. But I have seen no evidecne to suggest he was a world class fighter ever.

Once again I have never said he didnt have good idea's good idea's or techniques, but thats not the same as fighting ability.

[gungfu]

Rubbish, the guy was on TV and on the movie screens. He was mainstream and well known so his words would be taken well. Just like (until very recently) people worshipped Seagal, Van Damme etc

Bruce dedicated himself to martial arts and improving himself physically. It was impressive but not impressive enough to beat a BJ Penn. Let's make sure we keep things in perspective.



I know alot about Bruce. I'm not just spouting off shit and making my mind up on a single video etc I've been watching and reading about Lee for years.


I like the new line from the Lee fanatics. They argue that we don't know him or understand him.


Ok, since you know about Bruce Lee, let's keep it simple and direct. Let's be practical.

Note every/ some tv appearance Bruce made that he was given a platform to talk about martial arts during his time.

Note every/ some magazine publication that he was given a chance to air his views on martial arts during his time. ( note, you said mainstream.)

Ok, your turn. C'mon prove your points. Don't be wishy-washy about it. Be simple. Be direct. Note the opportunities during Bruce's time when he reached a mainstream readership/ viewership to air his martial arts views.


PS. I couldn't give a shit about whether BJ Penn could beat Bruce Lee or not. It's all fantasy.

[achillesthegreat]

Ok, since you know about Bruce Lee, let's keep it simple and direct. Let's be practical.

Note every/ some tv appearance Bruce made that he was given a platform to talk about martial arts during his time.

Note every/ some magazine publication that he was given a chance to air his views on martial arts during his time. ( note, you said mainstream.)

Ok, your turn. C'mon prove your points. Don't be wishy-washy about it. Be simple. Be direct. Note the opportunities during Bruce's time when he reached a mainstream readership/ viewership to air his martial arts views.


PS. I couldn't give a shit about whether BJ Penn could beat Bruce Lee or not. It's all fantasy.

I don't have time to start noting every tv appearance or magazine interview. Bruce Lee was involved in TV and film. These 2 platforms alone were huge. Using these platforms he shows what he can do. It is with these platforms that he shows his style of fighting etc It's these movies that made people think he is the best ever. If I talk to the average joe they will ask me stupid questions like bruce lee vs muhammad ali etc

If you go on IMDB you will see a host of TV and movies where he demonstrated his Martial Arts. Go on youtube and you will see a number of interviews where he talks about JKD etc

Bruce Lee dying young also helped make him into a cult hero.

[gungfu]

You are missing the point.



I never said Carruthers was nothing much, ever. To be considerd a world class fighter then yes you need a record, 100%.



To suggest that I don't think Lee could handle himself is not the case, and I never suggested it. But I have seen no evidecne to suggest he was a world class fighter ever.



Once again I have never said he didnt have good idea's good idea's or techniques, but thats not the same as fighting ability.



Ohhh, I see...world class fighter. By the way, I never said anything regarding Tommy being a world class fighter or whatever. I didn't think that was the point.

I mentioned Tommy to illustrate the capabilities that Bruce Lee would have had based on first hand accounts.

So, if your argument is about Bruce Lee not being some world class fighter...based on a 'fight record', then fair enough. Your rules, your game. I'm not.

You should have just kept it that simple to begin with.

Fighter = fight record.
Not a fighter = no fight record.

Gotcha.

You do realise that many people who can fight have no 'fight record' right? Just checking.

[196osh]

World class fighters dont need a record, in sanctioned fights.

But there needs to be a record of fights with other world class fighters, not sacntioned. But there needs to be evidence that they beat class fighters, if there is not then how can you determine who is good and who is not?

[gungfu]

I don't have time to start noting every tv appearance or magazine interview. Bruce Lee was involved in TV and film. These 2 platforms alone were huge. Using these platforms he shows what he can do. It is with these platforms that he shows his style of fighting etc It's these movies that made people think he is the best ever. If I talk to the average joe they will ask me stupid questions like bruce lee vs muhammad ali etc

If you go on IMDB you will see a host of TV and movies where he demonstrated his Martial Arts. Go on youtube and you will see a number of interviews where he talks about JKD etc

Bruce Lee dying young also helped make him into a cult hero.


Oh dear, man. You fucking let me down. I said no wishy-washy shit. Come ON, dude!!

I set you up with something ridiculously simple and I get a big fat FAIL. WTF!


Let me help you out though, cos I'm friendly and shit.

Like I said, it was in subsquent years after Bruce's death that his appreciation from the mainstream, the general public developed. However, during his time, the only mainstream audience he ever had was the Green Hornet, in the US. Period.

He had a handful of articles in Black Belt and talked a little about his art during tournament exhibitions. But then again, that's hardly mainstream/ general public material, is it?

The movies. The movies came to the US public and the rest of world, after his death. Enter the Dragon come out after his death. Game of Death came out 5 years after his death. In HK, where his films were made, he made appearances on a few tv appearances and did do some demos.

That's basically it. Did the HK tv appearances get publicity outside of HK during his lifetime? Are they now? Not really.

I rest my case. Sorry, you don't seem to know a lot about Bruce Lee, I'm afraid. Certain;y not enough to make a strong argument for your case, and er, especially if it's kinda wrong?!

[achillesthegreat]

Obviously these guys need records. Fighters like BJ have fought the best and through a process of elimination have seen themselves crowned as the best in the world.

If BJ Penn dedicated his life to do things like V sits and doing crazy vertical jumps then he could look just as crazy as Lee. Instead he trained for real fights and won them.

This argument has become ludicrous. Lee fanatics have been left to try and argue the credentials of people arguing that Lee isn't God.

[achillesthegreat]

Oh dear, man. You fucking let me down. I said no wishy-washy shit. Come ON, dude!!

I set you up with something ridiculously simple and I get a big fat FAIL. WTF!


Let me help you out though, cos I'm friendly and shit.

Like I said, it was in subsquent years after Bruce's death that his appreciation from the mainstream, the general public developed. However, during his time, the only mainstream audience he ever had was the Green Hornet, in the US. Period.

He had a handful of articles in Black Belt and talked a little about his art during tournament exhibitions. But then again, that's hardly mainstream/ general public material, is it?

The movies. The movies came to the US public and the world, after his death. In HK, he made appearances on a few tv appearances and did do some demos.

That's basically it. Did the HK tv appearances get publicity outside of HK during his lifetime? Are they now? Not really.

I rest my case. Sorry, you don't seem to know a lot about Bruce Lee, I'm afraid. Certain;y not enough to make a strong argument for your case, and er, especially if it's kinda wrong?!

My argument is not simply a platform for his Martial Arts. It is him being famous full stop. No mainstream guy has a scooby doo what Van Damme or even Seagal has trained in but up until recently they would say they are the toughest. It's an illusion and FYI Seagal and Van Damme were dedicated and talented like Lee. It's all about being famous AND having a platform for JKD.

Lees death made him a cult hero. Enter the Dragon then came out and that is huge until today. It's during this period that all his interviews and everything that was documented started to becoming big. He had loads of interviews discussing JKD and they came out after his death but they still came out and promoted his thoughts on JKD. His philosphies snowballed until people starting saying stupid things like he is the greatest MA.

Before his death, his platform was 18 movies in China. In USA it was just Batman and Green Hornet but once he died he had LOADS of footage etc that came out promoting his thoughts. It's not just holding talks discussing what you think, it's about being famous and people building the myth.

[gungfu]

World class fighters dont need a record, in sanctioned fights.


But there needs to be a record of fights with other world class fighters, not sacntioned. But there needs to be evidence that they beat class fighters, if there is not then how can you determine who is good and who is not?


Like I said, your rules, your game.
Fair enough.

Kinda difficult to compare if people are not into the same disciplines, no?
And like I said, again, kinda difficult to compare Bruce with anyone cos he had no need to prove to anyone anyway. Still, by all accounts from more knowledgable people who knew him or know of his story, the dude can fight. :)

[achillesthegreat]

Like I said, your rules, your game.
Fair enough.

Kinda difficult to compare if people are not into the same disciplines, no?
And like I said, again, kinda difficult to compare Bruce with anyone cos he had no need to prove to anyone anyway. Still, by all accounts from more knowledgable people who knew him or know of his story, the dude can fight. :)
It's not his rules. It's simple logic when comparing fighters.

JKD can't be compared to any competition discipline. I know it is a discipline but with no competition then it cannot be gauged at all.

I have my own discipline called whicky wak wok wik. I am the best at it. I will post vids on youtube and then you can compare me to bj penn in fantasy fights.

We aren't saying he can't fight. We are saying it is nothing short of ridiculous to put him in the same sentence as any fighter who has fought in competitions which have seen them go all the way to the top and be recognised as the best ever.

[gungfu]

My argument is not simply a platform for his Martial Arts. It is him being famous full stop. No mainstream guy has a scooby doo what Van Damme or even Seagal has trained in but up until recently they would say they are the toughest. It's an illusion and FYI Seagal and Van Damme were dedicated and talented like Lee. It's all about being famous AND having a platform for JKD.



Lees death made him a cult hero. Enter the Dragon then came out and that is huge until today. It's during this period that all his interviews and everything that was documented started to becoming big. He had loads of interviews discussing JKD and they came out after his death but they still came out and promoted his thoughts on JKD. His philosphies snowballed until people starting saying stupid things like he is the greatest MA.

Before his death, his platform was 18 movies in China. In USA it was just Batman and Green Hornet but once he died he had LOADS of footage etc that came out promoting his thoughts. It's not just holding talks discussing what you think, it's about being famous and people building the myth.


In regards to fame and infamy. Obviously then, your beef is with the dickheads who consider Seagal or Van Damme being brilliant fighters. That's their problem, not Seagals nor Van Dammes. IHence, nothing to do with Bruce Lee either. As for 'platform', as I've illustrated in my previous post....kinda fucking hard to have a platform for your views during your lifetime when you're fucking dead.

I agree with the subsequent fame and acclaim, but that wasn't your original point. You said he used his fame and publicity during his time to promote his martial arts. Obviously, you were wrong there, right?

And once again, if people thought he was the greatest martial artist ever, and could rip a man's heart out and show it to him before the dude keeled over, well, that's their problem, isn't it? Bruce Lee never said he could beat anyone and everyone, so what's the point? No need to be hating on someone that someone else has proclaimed and put on some pedestal.


You know a lot about Bruce Lee, you said. You sure on that? 18 movies in China (HK) for a platform? Er, platform for what, exactly? Martial Arts? Have you even seen these old movies he acted in as a kid? Let me answer that. No, you haven't. Am I correct?
Does anyone outside of HK even know he was a child actor, never mind actually seeing any of them? Jeez, man, you're reaching there, dude.

Loads of subsequent footage? Hmm. Not really, I would say. Enough for a handful of documentaries perhaps. Relatively, it's nothing much.

Anyway, you're mentioning them in relation to the 'myth' of Bruce Lee that has occured over the years. Once again, it's culture and the cult of personality you seem to have a beef with. Nothing to do with Bruce Lee himself, really.

But I agree, there's a lot of people making stupid assumptions out there on Bruce Lee based on general ignorance. Shame on them, eh?

[gungfu]

It's not his rules. It's simple logic when comparing fighters.

JKD can't be compared to any competition discipline. I know it is a discipline but with no competition then it cannot be gauged at all.

I have my own discipline called whicky wak wok wik. I am the best at it. I will post vids on youtube and then you can compare me to bj penn in fantasy fights.

We aren't saying he can't fight. We are saying it is nothing short of ridiculous to put him in the same sentence as any fighter who has fought in competitions which have seen them go all the way to the top and be recognised as the best ever.


Yeah, fair enough. But it's still your game , your rules. You know this because you realise that JKD isn't something you bring into the UFC, generally (actually, the basic concept of learning other disciplines is a part of JKD as well. But I digress). Most JKD guys practice it and martial arts for their own benefit, and not for competition. It's their right to, anyway. Have a go at the dudes who do think that Bruce could beat this and that guy, but you do realise however that basically, it has nothing to do with Bruce Lee, right?

Ok, you can argue and discuss points with them, but you have to consider that to have a good case, you have to know the subject matter well enough in the first place in order to make an informed opinion.

Sadly, to my experience, that aspect is woefully lacking.

PS. Nah, still couldn't give a fuck as to who can beat who with one hand tied behind their backs.

[MaliSlamusrex]

You can make an argument that Rikson Gracie is probably a B class fighter now only using BJJ.

MMA is evolving but Bruce doesn't even have the skills of a B class fighter. He hasn't got the skills of a Kenny Florian.

He did study alot of arts but he still just looked like a striker. He did study alot of arts but it didn't make him look invincible.

[MaliSlamusrex]

JKD isn't my martial arts i train Muay Thai and Judo BJJ boxing and MMA. I am just aware of Bruce Lee's JKD principle

The whole point of JKD is that it is not a single Martial art like Muay Thai, Judo, Karate boxing or BJJ. Bruce Lee's JKD style it is a combination of all almost identical to the current the current sport known as MMA.

Bullshit. If you want to say "Everyone trains in my martial art because all my martial art is everything that is awesome mixed together" then your martial art is nothing at all. It's just a word.

But shit, I guess if Georges St. Pierre is a JKD fighter and not a wrestler I must have been viewing him wrong. I wouldn't say Anderson is a Muy Thai fighter, JKD is probably more right on. Shinya Aoki is a jujitsu fighter you say? I think JKD is a more accurate description of what he does too.

:patsch

Pretty much every mixed martial artist out there today is ACTUALLY training in some capacity in wrestling and ground fighting, btw.

[Xavier]

My argument is not simply a platform for his Martial Arts. It is him being famous full stop. No mainstream guy has a scooby doo what Van Damme or even Seagal has trained in but up until recently they would say they are the toughest. It's an illusion and FYI Seagal and Van Damme were dedicated and talented like Lee. It's all about being famous AND having a platform for JKD.

Lees death made him a cult hero. Enter the Dragon then came out and that is huge until today. It's during this period that all his interviews and everything that was documented started to becoming big. He had loads of interviews discussing JKD and they came out after his death but they still came out and promoted his thoughts on JKD. His philosphies snowballed until people starting saying stupid things like he is the greatest MA.

Before his death, his platform was 18 movies in China. In USA it was just Batman and Green Hornet but once he died he had LOADS of footage etc that came out promoting his thoughts. It's not just holding talks discussing what you think, it's about being famous and people building the myth.


While Seagal is a piece of shit and it's fair to wail on the bullshit he himself spouts all the time (ex-Navy Seal; special ops; security for the prez; government assassin etc.) at least Van Damme has an actual fight record. He entered the European full contact scene aged 16+ and acquitted himself well. I know he comes across as somewhat of a prick but you can't deny the dude can probably handle himself in a fight - unlike Seagal.

[El Puma]

I personally feel that labeling JKD as a style is inaccurate.


JKD is theory put into action. Keep what is useful, discard what is not. As
Bruce would say.


He has been qouted as regretting giving it a name, thus putting it in a box like other styles.


Bruce was my biggest hero. Now, I took him of that pedestal and view him not as a MA God, but as a flawed human being who made a blueprint for physical, mental and spiritual enlightment based on his experiences and studies. For whatever shortcomings he had, he fell short of reaching his goals when he tragically died.

JKD is mixed martial arts. Bruce is the father of mixed martial arts.


As a fighter, we don't know and never will whether he was capable of taking out world class comp. He would not even spar Joe Lewis.

I highly suggest everyone read "The Tao of Bruce Lee"

[RDJ]

Lee hitting the heavybag is at the same level as at least 50 people who post home made videos on youtube.

He'd be laughed off the site if he posted it in the Training Section. Most would advice him to join a gym, likely.

[Dantes]

People who use the movie star/ actor line always come across as rather retarded simply because it shows a complete lack of knowledge about the subject matter.

:roll:
People who call others retarded because they don't believe in childhood fantasies about a film star is ridiculous. Added to this actually thinking he would be able to beat a professional 'world class' fighter like BJ Penn is embarrassing.

You should probably stick to a fanboy site for Bruce Lee, not a forum which deals in reality.

[Dantes]

Please do some research, he was both ;)

I am referring to the term fighter in the context of the current argument. That is -that he would beat a 'world class' professional fighter i.e BJ Penn. And there is no evidence that Lee would be able to actually fight and beat a professional, world class fighter, due to his apparently non-existent fight record. Try to keep up ;)

[Antsu]

:patsch
Cant believe there are fight fans who actualy argue about this.

[gungfu]

People who call others retarded because they don't believe in childhood fantasies about a film star is ridiculous. Added to this actually thinking he would be able to beat a professional 'world class' fighter like BJ Penn is embarrassing.

You should probably stick to a fanboy site for Bruce Lee, not a forum which deals in reality.


Just because you don't know the difference but continue to speak on the subject as if you were informed is pretty retarded.

What other apt word is there?

[Dantes]

Just because you don't know the difference but continue to speak on the subject as if you were informed is pretty retarded.

What other apt word is there?

For you? 'Ignorant' probably suits. 'Moronic' also fits as well. Hope this helps :good

[gungfu]

For you? 'Ignorant' probably suits. 'Moronic' also fits as well. Hope this helps


Actually, I was thinking of you.

I know my subject; you don't but think you do, so who's the retarded, ignorant moron? :)

Try again.

[Dantes]

Actually, I was thinking of you.

I know my subject; you don't but think you do, so who's the retarded, ignorant moron? :)

Try again.


:lol:
You're stuck in a fantasy world and do not realize it. Seek help. This is getting lame. I'm out.

Best of luck dreamer.:good

[gungfu]

You're stuck in a fantasy world and do not realize it. Seek help. This is getting lame. I'm out.

Best of luck dreamer.


I said try again, not act retarded again.

So much FAIL. :)

[196osh]

I have exited this thread on the subject of bruce lee.

But I will say that Gung Fu. Stating you know, and that you have spoken to people with experience is a far far cry from providing eviedence that backs up an argument.

And those who make claims should provide the proof.

[gungfu]

I have exited this thread on the subject of bruce lee.

But I will say that Gung Fu. Stating you know, and that you have spoken to people with experience is a far far cry from providing eviedence that backs up an argument.

And those who make claims should provide the proof.


Hell, I agree about the backing-up of evidence. I've provided the facts that Bruce Lee was a martial artist and of some skill, and have been in fights. This is all documented. An idiot can look them up.

However, if someone brings forth an ill formed opinion based upon ignorance, then the label of 'retard' is pretty fitting, especially when that person has no real knowledge of the subject matter. This is usually the case in regards of people believing that Lee was 'just an actor'.

What you may be confused with is the notion that I somehow think that Bruce Lee is superman and can kick everyone's ass. I don't think this, and only a moron would do so.
However, I will try to correct any falsehoods that an accuser brings to the table - such as the fact that Lee could not fight, or was just an actor.

So, what else do you want to know?

[thanosone]

BJ fans are annoying.

[Baldrick]

What man can honestly say he's not a fan of a BJ?

[coog]

Mate, I think anyone who is into combat sports and/or action move knows Bruce Lee. I know him pretty damn well. I've seen pretty much everything there is to see from Lee. I'm sure I've missed a few things but I've seen the majority of it. I know Bruce Lee's life very well.

Lee's grappling is very poor. He obviously did some and had some understanding but he was by and large a striker. If Lee's stand up was so great BJ could just shoot, take him down and close the show. Look how side on Lee stands, the guy wouldn't have a scooby about sprawling and would literally be thinking 'what the fuck is happening here'.

His philosphy sounds brillant, his on screen kicks are mesmerising but the fact of the matter is when we genuinely question him he can't stand up to interrogation. Sure, he read alot about boxing and was heavily influenced by it but his hands are piss poor. I've got video evidence of it.

I know he has won ALOT of fights against boxing, muay thai etc but can I please see some footage.

The guy was good but he wasn't God.

BJ's a professional fighter, a bit of speed doesn't phase him. BJ's a physical freak like Lee BUT he's actually got a genuine martial arts record to back up the cool stunts like jumping 3 foot out of water.

Based on facts and evidence, the truth be told Bruce Lee is a very poor man's Cung Le.
the truth of the matter is that you have no idea , either one of you . who is to say that Bruce would not develop great Takedoen defence like Machida

[achillesthegreat]

the truth of the matter is that you have no idea , either one of you . who is to say that Bruce would not develop great Takedoen defence like Machida

you are just as pathetic as the typical bruce lee fanantic. do you not realise how stupid what you are saying is?

if bruce lee has to DEVELOP these skills then he is not a complete fighter and we are discussing his POTENTIAL as a REAL fighter. I don't think me or 196 have talked down his potential. he is very special physically.

as it is, i am assessing bruce lee's actual skills and they aren't as good as everyone thinks and they are not proven.

i really wanted to exit this thread but seeing more bruce shit wound me up.

[don owens]

There is very good reason to compare Lee to Rocky. Lee was a MOVIE STAR. Rocky was a star, played and created by Stallone. One thing they had in common, NEITHER WERE FIGHTERS. Bruce Lee was a master, correct. A MASTER OF SELF PROMOTION. He was not a fighter. many, if not most of the stories you hear or read about him are bull shit. He ran, did calisthenics, did weights, hit the heavy bag, trained techniques. all the things fighters do. BUT HE DID NOT FIGHT. Nor did he train champions. this shit of him teaching HEAVY WEIGHT champion Joe Lewis is nonsense. they never fought together. they watched tapes and worked out. Chuck Norris ditto. he deserves credit for his accomplishments but most of what is disussed about him is nonsense. his philosophy was compiled from Krishnamurti and numerous others. no fault in that. we all read, but he was not an original thinker. jeet kune do. style of no style. no champions coming from that, if there was one i missed it.each style, when a practitioner reaches, if they do, a certain level, becomes their own style and is therefore free of hesitation and many restrictions. today's fighters, and many good fighters of Lee's era, would hand Lee his ass. AND HE KNEW IT. He wanted to be known as the greatest martial arts fighter in the world. many then, and now, think that is true. IT IS NOT. He got what he wanted. He was only 32 and had not matured. he was a melodramatic clown and it got him murdered, but that is another story.

[achillesthegreat]

If Bruce masters BJJ like i think he would of, he would murder BJ PENN pior outside the ring!

such a big word used so lightly.

a quick wiki look will show bj penn was the first non-Brazilian to win the black-belt division of the World Jiu-Jitsu Championship held in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

another wiki search will show you 'while most people need a decade or more to become a black belt, Penn had, with only three years of training'.

he's from the gracie school of bjj.

come on, we can't just give bruce lee such an easy ride, especially in comparison to someone like bj.

madness, i tell you, madness.

[UpperStr8]

It's not an opinion. It's a fact. I'm talking about proven fighters on tape.
Just ask Chuck Norris and the guys that have experience his presence. Pictures and tapes can fool you. Once you get in the ring with someone, its a whole different areana. We forget that there is much more to it than just the physical, there is also the mental and spiritual aspect. And that we may never understand in a person because what makes the pope or priests much more spiritual than you and I (hell if I know), its best if you do your own looking and research to try to come as close as possible to knowing the true essences of something or someone because even the weakest guy in the bunch can beat the toughest with one lucky punch or one lucky submittion.

[thejokerswild]

Lee is the master, he would own mma today. He'd be a step ahead of even GSP. Too much IQ, Wisdom, Atheletic abilities. He'd adapt to the modern arena.

[196osh]

Just ask Chuck Norris and the guys that have experience his presence.

I know for a fact that Chuck Norris was choked unconcious by a 70 year old Helio Gracie, whillst mounted.

He MOUNTED Helio and was choked the hell out whillst he was on the mount.


:smoke

[Beebs]

I know for a fact that Chuck Norris was choked unconcious by a 70 year old Helio Gracie, whillst mounted.

He MOUNTED Helio and was choked the hell out whillst he was on the mount.


:smoke

To be fair Norris then went on to train under the Machado's, I think he got a black belt eventually, definitely a brown.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[UpperStr8]

I know for a fact that Chuck Norris was choked unconcious by a 70 year old Helio Gracie, whillst mounted.

He MOUNTED Helio and was choked the hell out whillst he was on the mount.


:smoke
He was also that tough guy that thought he could beat bruce lee and was dumb enough to test him. Boy, did he get a good lesson on some good chinese boxing. meow

[Beebs]

Lee is the master, he would own mma today. He'd be a step ahead of even GSP. Too much IQ, Wisdom, Atheletic abilities. He'd adapt to the modern arena.

Based on what? He didn't develop any grappling skill of note during his life despite there being more than ample opportunity and he never was an even halfway competitive fighter in any form.

Saying shit like "oh he would be great at BJJ" is just as stupid as saying "oh he would learn to sprint and outrun Usain Bolt, or learn to swim and outswim Phelps.

I suppose based on the technical definition of "impossible" it isn't, but it simply has no chance of happening in reality.

[Beebs]

He was also that tough guy that thought he could beat bruce lee and was dumb enough to test him. Boy, did he get a good lesson on some good chinese boxing. meow

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Nosbor]

There were also stories about some Japanese master, Mas Oyama, or something. Who's calling card was open hand "chopping" Bull's horns in half. I bet he would have been a modern day MMA terror.:D

I guess it goes without saying that I am very skeptical of how well Bruce Lee would have performed in this time capsulated MMA senario(s).

Personally I would rather hear Gene LeBell stories. He would have torn of Bruce's head and defecated down his neck.

[TKDfighterJoe]

To be fair Norris then went on to train under the Machado's, I think he got a black belt eventually, definitely a brown.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] Taekwondo Us national team member james moontasri cross-trains with the machados

[UpperStr8]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Is that a pic of your newborn? cute

[UpperStr8]

There were also stories about some Japanese master, Mas Oyama, or something. Who's calling card was open hand "chopping" Bull's horns in half. I bet he would have been a modern day MMA terror.:D

I guess it goes without saying that I am very skeptical of how well Bruce Lee would have performed in this time capsulated MMA senario(s).

Personally I would rather hear Gene LeBell stories. He would have torn of Bruce's head and defecated down his neck.
you watch too much japanese animations

[Beebs]

you watch too much japanese animations

He isn't the one with a reality problem.

Oyama is a pretty well documented fighter who had a lot of success in karate and was pretty decent in Judo.

Lebell is a legend in American Judo, trained with Le, tossed him around without much issue.

What exactly is your point in this thread?

[gungfu]

He isn't the one with a reality problem.



Oyama is a pretty well documented fighter who had a lot of success in karate and was pretty decent in Judo.



Lebell is a legend in American Judo, trained with Le, tossed him around without much issue.



What exactly is your point in this thread?


Once again, LeBell never trained with Lee, LeBell never choked out Lee, LeBell did not bend Norris over and fuck him up the ass till he screamed 'daddy'.

[gungfu]

There is very good reason to compare Lee to Rocky. Lee was a MOVIE STAR. Rocky was a star, played and created by Stallone. One thing they had in common, NEITHER WERE FIGHTERS. Bruce Lee was a master, correct. A MASTER OF SELF PROMOTION. He was not a fighter. many, if not most of the stories you hear or read about him are bull shit. He ran, did calisthenics, did weights, hit the heavy bag, trained techniques. all the things fighters do. BUT HE DID NOT FIGHT. Nor did he train champions. this shit of him teaching HEAVY WEIGHT champion Joe Lewis is nonsense. they never fought together. they watched tapes and worked out. Chuck Norris ditto. he deserves credit for his accomplishments but most of what is disussed about him is nonsense. his philosophy was compiled from Krishnamurti and numerous others. no fault in that. we all read, but he was not an original thinker. jeet kune do. style of no style. no champions coming from that, if there was one i missed it.each style, when a practitioner reaches, if they do, a certain level, becomes their own style and is therefore free of hesitation and many restrictions. today's fighters, and many good fighters of Lee's era, would hand Lee his ass. AND HE KNEW IT. He wanted to be known as the greatest martial arts fighter in the world. many then, and now, think that is true. IT IS NOT. He got what he wanted. He was only 32 and had not matured. he was a melodramatic clown and it got him murdered, but that is another story.


Another classic retarded opinion based upon one's own retardation.

Going through life without a clue is no way to live, son.

[Beebs]

Once again, LeBell never trained with Lee, LeBell never choked out Lee, LeBell did not bend Norris over and fuck him up the ass till he screamed 'daddy'.

Are you going to tell Gene that, or should I?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Beebs]

Another classic retarded opinion based upon one's own retardation.

Going through life without a clue is no way to live, son.

Lee has no competitive record against serious fighters, certainly nothing like his lesser known but more talented contemporaries.

Really, what exactly are you trying to say Bruce Lee was? Any claim beyond what he actually accomplished as a fighter is pure speculation, and what he actually accomplished as a fighter pales in comparison to much more proven fighters. Theorize all you want, but there are far more proven fighters.

[gungfu]

Are you going to tell Gene that, or should I?



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I've met and spoken with Gene. He never trained with Lee. They may have played about on set, but they never formally trained. There's a difference.

Understand?

[gungfu]

Lee has no competitive record against serious fighters, certainly nothing like his lesser known but more talented contemporaries.

Really, what exactly are you trying to say Bruce Lee was? Any claim beyond what he actually accomplished as a fighter is pure speculation, and what he actually accomplished as a fighter pales in comparison to much more proven fighters. Theorize all you want, but there are far more proven fighters.


The guy is a proven fighter. Just not in tournaments or for belts.

The fact that YOU don't know of his fighting outside of the ring is your fault, and should not be a measure of Lee's actual fighting prowess.

[Antsu]

I've met and spoken with Gene. He never trained with Lee. They may have played about on set, but they never formally trained. There's a difference.

Understand?


Funny thing is that when I met and spoken with Gene he said they did indeed train together but only a short while.

Lee stoped training with him because he didnt want to fly wall to wall like a little girl anymore.

Also one stunt man confirmed those training sessions.

[Antsu]

The guy is a proven fighter. Just not in tournaments or for belts.

The fact that YOU don't know of his fighting outside of the ring is your fault, and should not be a measure of Lee's actual fighting prowess.

My local bar also has couple of those proven fighters.


One guy I met some time ago named Rane, I believe. Said that just couple of days ago he beat ten armed man in front of a local McDonalds.
Two months later he had beat ten guys in same place again just couple of days before coming in the bar.

He had friend named Pena with him, who confirmed those stories.

Now that is what I call proven fighter, just not in the ring.

The fact that YOU don’t probably know him is your fault and should not change the fact that he is one off if not THE best fighter of all times.

[gungfu]

Funny thing is that when I met and spoken with Gene he said they did indeed train together but only a short while.

Lee stoped training with him because he didnt want to fly wall to wall like a little girl anymore.

Also one stunt man confirmed those training sessions.


Ok. Name the time and the place this happened. What production were they on, and the name of the stuntman who witnessed it.

I'll research it accordingly after you supply the details.

There is not one mention of Lee training with LeBell in Lee's daytimer diaries. And he listed practically everything he did martial arts wise. And there has been no record of Lee telling anyone about them or anyone else talking about them, stuntman or otherwise.

I like Gene, but he's open to...how you say...'hyperbole'.

[gungfu]

My local bar also has couple of those proven fighters.

One guy I met some time ago named Rane, I believe. Said that just couple of days ago he beat ten armed man in front of a local McDonalds.

Two months later he had beat ten guys in same place again just couple of days before coming in the bar.



He had friend named Pena with him, who confirmed those stories.

Now that is what I call proven fighter, just not in the ring.

The fact that YOU don’t probably know him is your fault and should not change the fact that he is one off if not THE best fighter of all times.


If you consider your friend THE best fighter of all times, then great for you and your friend. Give him a hug.

However, only an idiot would be that gregarious in assuming someone is the best fight of all times - Lee never thought so, and I certianly don't think that of Lee. :)

So, what's your point?

[196osh]

LeBell did not bend Norris over and fuck him up the ass till he screamed 'daddy'.

70ish year old helio could have if he was so inclined.

I know beebs, norris seems a nice guy and i think your right he did eventualy get his black.

[TKDfighterJoe]

If you consider your friend THE best fighter of all times, then great for you and your friend. Give him a hug.

However, only an idiot would be that gregarious in assuming someone is the best fight of all times - Lee never thought so, and I certianly don't think that of Lee. :)

So, what's your point?gung fu, hes mocking you because you have just about as much evidence for bruce lee as he does for his friend.

So, do you have any solid proof or documentation of outside-the-ring fighting with skilled fighters that bruce did?

[Thom]

My local bar also has couple of those proven fighters.


One guy I met some time ago named Rane, I believe. Said that just couple of days ago he beat ten armed man in front of a local McDonalds.
Two months later he had beat ten guys in same place again just couple of days before coming in the bar.

He had friend named Pena with him, who confirmed those stories.

Now that is what I call proven fighter, just not in the ring.

The fact that YOU don’t probably know him is your fault and should not change the fact that he is one off if not THE best fighter of all times.


:lol:

[Beebs]

I've met and spoken with Gene. He never trained with Lee. They may have played about on set, but they never formally trained. There's a difference.

Understand?

Yes I do understand the difference, and Gene clearly states they trained formally.

Either way, the point I was making is that Lee had access to a great grappling trainer but never became a great or anything approaching great grappler. People just assume he would be good at BJJ, but in reality he had the opportunity to be a great grappler in his own lifetime and did not.

[Beebs]

The guy is a proven fighter. Just not in tournaments or for belts.

The fact that YOU don't know of his fighting outside of the ring is your fault, and should not be a measure of Lee's actual fighting prowess.

I know of his fighting outside of the ring, that is why I think so little of it.

A few kung fu teachers and other self-proclaimed fighters is not a record worthy of being mentioned as a proven high level fighter.

[20a87]

If that vid of him on the punchbag was anything to go by then bruce lee would get his ass handed to him by most trained fighters. The comparison to rocky was fair because they are both actors in films not real fighters.

[cross_trainer]

Lee is the master, he would own mma today. He'd be a step ahead of even GSP. Too much IQ, Wisdom, Atheletic abilities. He'd adapt to the modern arena.

This seems to assume that there's a direct correlation between intelligence and fighting ability (as long as you're athletic and focus your intelligence on learning martial arts). I disagree. While many MMA fighters are intelligent, they do not need to be smart to succeed as long as their trainers know what they're doing. Otherwise, Chris Langan:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


would be the Ultimate Fighting Champion.

[Beebs]

This seems to assume that there's a direct correlation between intelligence and fighting ability (as long as you're athletic and focus your intelligence on learning martial arts). I disagree. While many MMA fighters are intelligent, they do not need to be smart to succeed as long as their trainers know what they're doing. Otherwise, Chris Langan:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


would be the Ultimate Fighting Champion.

It would be sort of interesting to compare intellectual ability and academic accomplishments of various fighters. I know Chuck Liddell has an accounting degree from Cal Poly and might have been licensed as a CPA at some point; not sure about actually getting licensed, although if he didn't get it I imagine it was because he didn't pursue it.

A lot of other wrestlers earned degrees as you have to meet academic standards to be an NCAA athlete, and most wrestlers don't have the option of "going pro" as in other sports.

Both Klitschko brothers famously have Ph. D's in sports science.

Karelin has a Ph. D in Physical education.

I am sure there are many other examples, anybody else?

[cross_trainer]

It would be sort of interesting to compare intellectual ability and academic accomplishments of various fighters. I know Chuck Liddell has an accounting degree from Cal Poly and might have been licensed as a CPA at some point; not sure about actually getting licensed, although if he didn't get it I imagine it was because he didn't pursue it.

A lot of other wrestlers earned degrees as you have to meet academic standards to be an NCAA athlete, and most wrestlers don't have the option of "going pro" as in other sports.

Both Klitschko brothers famously have Ph. D's in sports science.

Karelin has a Ph. D in Physical education.

I am sure there are many other examples, anybody else?

Interesting issue, and one which deserves its own thread. An anecdote, if I may:

Bobby Czyz was a member of MENSA. This didn't stop Holyfield--a far more skillful fighter with a sixth grade education--from destroying him.

[Beebs]

Interesting issue, and one which deserves its own thread. An anecdote, if I may:

Bobby Czyz was a member of MENSA. This didn't stop Holyfield--a far more skillful fighter with a sixth grade education--from destroying him.

I forget the exact quote but Richard Pryor had a bit about how boxers didn't need to be geniuses.

Something along the lines of "What do you do champ?" "I knock motherfuckers out"

Obviously it isn't funny without me remembering the actual bit :verysad, but hopefully it spurs somebody else to find it.

Don't get me wrong Pryor loved and respected boxing and even did some himself, but he is right, you don't need to be an academic to be a fighter or any other athlete.

[Nosbor]

By basically all accounts Cassius Clay was a "ring genius" but had a room temperature IQ, no joke or disrespect intended. Although I am not a fan of the man's polotics.

[don owens]

Gung Fu, YOU ARE A CLASSICAL NUTHUGGER. When Joe Lewis met Lee he was already an accomplished fighter and champion. He and Lee separated ways because Lee wanted him to tell the media that Lee was his trainer, and SINCE THAT WAS UNTRUE, LEWIS REFUSED TO DO IT. You have a problem with people that dont feel like masturbating while watching Lee movies and so you insult everyone. I have forgotten more about Lee and martial arts than you will ever be able to learn. Dont know why you get so upset. noone here is trying to stop you from jacking off watching Lee, so dont get so upset.

[UpperStr8]

Bruce was the king and Mas Oyama dare i say it, might even have been better! They would own MMA today!
I not trying to prove no point to anybody, you are all entitled to your own opinion, but to discredit a man that is in the history books and to competely try to re-do the facts and unsaid what has been said about Bruce Lee would be like shooting yourself in the foot and if your a true MMA fan it'll be like shooting both you and your own grandpa in the foot. Bruce is the godfather of MMA. He was the legendary relvoutionist that was killed for his conviction of enriching everybody and not exclusively to China the secrets and true art of fighting. To hate or show any negatively towards him is ignorance at its greatest.

[Trixie]

You guys seem to be pretty angrily entrenched but here is my two cents:

If you resurrected a prime Bruce Lee and put him in a fight with BJ Penn, BJ Penn would win. But the reason for this is just that BJ has had some 30 years of martial arts progression to work with. If Lee had seen what techniques were becoming effective, what the rest of the world had to offer, he would have extrapolated from each what was best and absorbed it. That's what he did. And with the same knowledge that BJ Penn has, I have no doubt Lee would have used it better.

Lee was too fast. Way too fast. I expect that his defence would be found wanting, and that footage of him hitting the heavy bag kinda shows that, with his hands low and his chin exposed. But I honestly don't think you would be able to defend yourself against his speed when he attacked.

I won't even bother commenting on his insane kicking ability.

Also, two absolutely horrendous comments:

1. The guy with the David Haye avatar saying that he could one inch punch someone into a seated position like Lee does. (You can't)

2. Same guy also calling Bruce Lee a poor man's Cung Le. That is just downright disrespectful, man.

[Antsu]

If you resurrected a prime Bruce Lee and put him in a fight with BJ Penn, BJ Penn would win. But the reason for this is just that BJ has had some 30 years of martial arts progression to work with. If Lee had seen what techniques were becoming effective, what the rest of the world had to offer, he would have extrapolated from each what was best and absorbed it. That's what he did. And with the same knowledge that BJ Penn has, I have no doubt Lee would have used it better.


Nothing like assuming that he would be best in the world if he just trained BJJ.
There is no poof for that but hey he was in movies so he should be able to do it.

[Trixie]

Nothing like assuming that he would be best in the world if he just trained BJJ.
There is no poof for that but hey he was in movies so he should be able to do it.

Gah. Never mind. What's the point. This is my first foray over to the MMA forum from the boxing one. Not sure why I bothered. Sorry for interrupting proceedings over here.

[MattMattMatt]

Gah. Never mind. What's the point. This is my first foray over to the MMA forum from the boxing one. Not sure why I bothered. Sorry for interrupting proceedings over here.

There is no point to this thread anymore. Bruce Lee was very athletic, and incredibly dedicated, but trying to extrapolate the very meagre evidence for his real fighting ability is impossible, hence a thread of conjecture filled ranting from both sides. The only sensible view in a situation deviod of tangible evidence is one that remains open-minded.

[MaliSlamusrex]

I think everyone can agree on that... He had to compete to prove himself as a fighter, but because of his legacy he can't be dismissed as a individual who could not fight.

There is no point to this thread anymore. Bruce Lee was very athletic, and incredibly dedicated, but trying to extrapolate the very meagre evidence for his real fighting ability is impossible, hence a thread of conjecture filled ranting from both sides. The only sensible view in a situation deviod of tangible evidence is one that remains open-minded.

[TKDfighterJoe]

^^

bruce lee was not incredibly dedicated and has no legacy. He was in martial arts movies and was flexible/aerobic.

He was also on steroids, smoked weed, and believed in a bunch of psuedo-scientific bullshit like running electricity through your body. 'His' philosophy is simply taoism right from the book. Going into martial arts and saying 'just use what works' is no great feat. The tricks he did at martial arts demonstrations were tricks I see at all kinds of demonstrations. His punching on that 40 lb bag was atrocious. He never fought anyone who was anyone. 'oh wait he fought a thaiboxer' So I guess everyone who has fought some guy who takes thai-boxing lessons is an invincible fighting god?

His fanboys are wrapped up in a fantasy that the fighting in the movies was somehow realistic.


I won't even bother commenting on his insane kicking ability.
I will.

As someone who trained at the olympic training center, alongside the US and spanish olympic team, under olympic coaches, under 5 different taekwondo world champions at different points, and has been to international Taekwondo tournaments I can comment on his kicking ability.

And my analysis is meh. He would be too slow to win at the national level, and his techique is mediocre at best.

[Beebs]

Also his "deep philosophical thoughts" are all rehashed and empty.

Hard to think of a another human being overrated in so many ways.

[Nosbor]

Nothing like assuming that he would be best in the world if he just trained BJJ.
There is no poof for that but hey he was in movies so he should be able to do it.

Why not? If I simply studied harder, I would have been a medical doctor. :lol::lol::lol:

WELL...Perhaps not!

[Nosbor]

^^

bruce lee was not incredibly dedicated and has no legacy. He was in martial arts movies and was flexible/aerobic.

He was also on steroids, smoked weed, and believed in a bunch of psuedo-scientific bullshit like running electricity through your body. 'His' philosophy is simply taoism right from the book. Going into martial arts and saying 'just use what works' is no great feat. The tricks he did at martial arts demonstrations were tricks I see at all kinds of demonstrations. His punching on that 40 lb bag was atrocious. He never fought anyone who was anyone. 'oh wait he fought a thaiboxer' So I guess everyone who has fought some guy who takes thai-boxing lessons is an invincible fighting god?

His fanboys are wrapped up in a fantasy that the fighting in the movies was somehow realistic.

I will.

As someone who trained at the olympic training center, alongside the US and spanish olympic team, under olympic coaches, under 5 different taekwondo world champions at different points, and has been to international Taekwondo tournaments I can comment on his kicking ability.

And my analysis is meh. He would be too slow to win at the national level, and his techique is mediocre at best.

Holy crap! You have an intensive TKD training resume. Did you guys have much freedom at the Olympic training center or did your coaches pretty much keep you lockdown and accounted for 24/7, Soviet style???

[TKDfighterJoe]

Holy crap! You have an intensive TKD training resume. Did you guys have much freedom at the Olympic training center or did your coaches pretty much keep you lockdown and accounted for 24/7, Soviet style???My resume is very good, even better than that in some ways, but I am not a high level competitor. I hope to be some day. The camp was run by the olympic coaches, but I am not on the national/olympic team, It was an athlete development camp. Very intense, three workouts a day. There was a early curfew like 10:00 and youd be damned if you were late to practice.

My day went like this (if I recall properly)
Conditioning 8:00-9:30
Eat till my jaw froze up
Shower
Sleep
Technical practice 11:00-1:00
Eat
shower
sleep
Sparring practice 2:30-4:30
Eat
Study film/group discussion
eat again
sleep like a brick
repeat

All while drinking water nonstop and still feeling dehydrated. This was the main OTC in colorado springs way up in the mountains so the air was thin and desert dry.

Sometimes when we trained Soome high level Judokas would be training across the gym. Amazing throws. I got to talk to some of them, it was a great experience. I got a picture with some boxing coaches, and talked to a wrestling coach. Our training hall was across the way from the swimming pool where there were swimmers swimming before, during, and after our practices. The same people I think. The dorms were ok I guess.

The best thing was the food. All you can eat, wholesome, and free. I can't believe how much I ate a day. 4 full meals a day and snacks in between.

We also watched the US olympic/national and spanish national Taekwondo teams training. People moving so fast I couldnt believe my eyes, and ive seen fast kickers before.

Great experince, if you can ever get into an athlete development camp for your sport I highly reccomend it.

[PIRA]

I think all of the sources for Lee's fighting experience are friends and family. Some reports conflict as well. One source says a fight lasts a certain duration and others say otherwise. I've seen conflicting reports on two different 'fights'. I really want to know why no real fighting could be video.

The title of this thread is he fought a Thai boxer on a FILM SET. No cameras available to record the accomplishment I guess?!?!?!


Because it never happened. Seriously - Thai boxing is the national sport of Thailand and any bout or a hint of a bout involving one of Thailand's best (and it would be the best as the Thai's take their rep seriously) and not one independent source? :rofl

[Nosbor]

My resume is very good, even better than that in some ways, but I am not a high level competitor. I hope to be some day. The camp was run by the olympic coaches, but I am not on the national/olympic team, It was an athlete development camp. Very intense, three workouts a day. There was a early curfew like 10:00 and youd be damned if you were late to practice.

My day went like this (if I recall properly)
Conditioning 8:00-9:30
Eat till my jaw froze up
Shower
Sleep
Technical practice 11:00-1:00
Eat
shower
sleep
Sparring practice 2:30-4:30
Eat
Study film/group discussion
eat again
sleep like a brick
repeat

All while drinking water nonstop and still feeling dehydrated. This was the main OTC in colorado springs way up in the mountains so the air was thin and desert dry.

Sometimes when we trained Soome high level Judokas would be training across the gym. Amazing throws. I got to talk to some of them, it was a great experience. I got a picture with some boxing coaches, and talked to a wrestling coach. Our training hall was across the way from the swimming pool where there were swimmers swimming before, during, and after our practices. The same people I think. The dorms were ok I guess.

The best thing was the food. All you can eat, wholesome, and free. I can't believe how much I ate a day. 4 full meals a day and snacks in between.

We also watched the US olympic/national and spanish national Taekwondo teams training. People moving so fast I couldnt believe my eyes, and ive seen fast kickers before.

Great experince, if you can ever get into an athlete development camp for your sport I highly reccomend it.

Interesting information :good

[UpperStr8]

My resume is very good, even better than that in some ways, but I am not a high level competitor. I hope to be some day. The camp was run by the olympic coaches, but I am not on the national/olympic team, It was an athlete development camp. Very intense, three workouts a day. There was a early curfew like 10:00 and youd be damned if you were late to practice.

My day went like this (if I recall properly)
Conditioning 8:00-9:30
Eat till my jaw froze up
Shower
Sleep
Technical practice 11:00-1:00
Eat
shower
sleep
Sparring practice 2:30-4:30
Eat
Study film/group discussion
eat again
sleep like a brick
repeat

All while drinking water nonstop and still feeling dehydrated. This was the main OTC in colorado springs way up in the mountains so the air was thin and desert dry.

Sometimes when we trained Soome high level Judokas would be training across the gym. Amazing throws. I got to talk to some of them, it was a great experience. I got a picture with some boxing coaches, and talked to a wrestling coach. Our training hall was across the way from the swimming pool where there were swimmers swimming before, during, and after our practices. The same people I think. The dorms were ok I guess.

The best thing was the food. All you can eat, wholesome, and free. I can't believe how much I ate a day. 4 full meals a day and snacks in between.

We also watched the US olympic/national and spanish national Taekwondo teams training. People moving so fast I couldnt believe my eyes, and ive seen fast kickers before.

Great experince, if you can ever get into an athlete development camp for your sport I highly reccomend it.
your really retarded. Been hit too hard too many times. Its like that retard at school whom you have to excuse all the time because he aint got it striaght. Its okay son your forgiven. Keep on working hard tho I can tell you need the extra practice. Pira and Nosbor can be your grappling partners if you need one. They can apply their dominant position on you and then you guys can take turns. :)

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

xx
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[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

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[TKDfighterJoe]

your really retarded. Been hit too hard too many times. Its like that retard at school whom you have to excuse all the time because he aint got it striaght. Its okay son your forgiven. Keep on working hard tho I can tell you need the extra practice. Pira and Nosbor can be your grappling partners if you need one. They can apply their dominant position on you and then you guys can take turns. :):rofl

how old are you?

[UpperStr8]

:rofl

how old are you?
Why does that matter you bias fawk?

[gungfu]

Gung Fu, YOU ARE A CLASSICAL NUTHUGGER. When Joe Lewis met Lee he was already an accomplished fighter and champion. He and Lee separated ways because Lee wanted him to tell the media that Lee was his trainer, and SINCE THAT WAS UNTRUE, LEWIS REFUSED TO DO IT. You have a problem with people that dont feel like masturbating while watching Lee movies and so you insult everyone. I have forgotten more about Lee and martial arts than you will ever be able to learn. Dont know why you get so upset. noone here is trying to stop you from jacking off watching Lee, so dont get so upset.



AND YOU ARE THE CLASSICAL MORON?

I think you have your facts a little crossed and screwed. Not unusual on threads like this.

Everyone knows that Joe Lewis was already an accomplished fighter and champion. Bruce was impressed with him and actually asked to help train him - have an exchange of minds - because Bruce saw that Lewis had great skill, but needed refining.

Of course, egos being egos in the martial arts world, Lewis said thanks but no thanks. I mean who the fuck does this little chinese guy with no competition and belts and trophies, and basically no name, think he is when he thinks he can train me and improve my martial arts? So, basically, that was their first meeting.

However, as time wore on, Bruce did get a reputation, and from the likes of respected martial artists like Jhoon Rhee and Ed Parker, and notably Mike Stone, who had heard it through the grapevine that he should meet this guy to see his thoughts on fighting. MIke Stone was the equal if not more renowned than Joe Lewis and was known as one of the baddest fuckers on the tournament scene, and he wanted to check this little chinese guy out, if only to shut all the talk he was hearing.

Basically Stone was impressed and became a student of Bruce's. He became a believer. And he spread the word which reached the likes of Norris and Lewis. If Stone wasn't as respected as a fighter, there would have been no way that Norris and Lewis would have even contemplated on seeing Lee. But seeing Lee they did, and Norris became a student too.

Regarding Lewis, Lee was aware of what Lewis was like and how he had first turned down the offer of training, and so Bruce made it absolutely sure that it was Lewis who was insistent in meeting and training with Lee, and not the other way round. So Bruce actually refused to train Lewis, citing perhaps that maybe Lewis was right and that there was nothing to offer after-all. Mind games, basically, and it was after Lewis contacted him a number of times that Lee thought it was ok to train him, and that there was no confusion as to who contacted who for training.

As for the falling out in regards of the media. This is highly unlikely since Bruce was frequently at competitions to hand out trophies to Lewis, and everyone already knew that Bruce was training him. True, the association would have benefited Lee, but the link was reciprocal as Lewis seemed untouchable with the skills that Bruce developed for Lewis. Certainly, Lewis didn't seem to mind much as Lee attended a large number of tournaments Lewis participated in.

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So, yeah, that media thing you mentioned is kinda bullshit. No one knows why they fell out, but there is a rumour that towards the end that Lewis was hooked on coke and was becoming paranoid, even to the extent of accusing Bruce of making a move on his wife. Something that Lewis has mentioned before and is rather ashamed of, since he went to Bruce's home a bit mad and had to be calmed down by Lee and only realised he had been foolish when Lee asked him to repeat the accusation to Lee's wife.

I think your comments about me is typical of the person who himself gets upset with what others think about Bruce Lee. Basically, you are projecting your anger at someone like me, who isn't. I try and supply the facts, but if opinions are forthright and obviously bullshit, yeah, I think it's rather retarded and should be call out as such. And all the 'you jack off to Lee movies' comebacks does come across as retarded, no matter how you look at it. So, yeah, you're coming across as a bit retarded. Sorry.

[TKDfighterJoe]

I dont care if Bruce lee's public relations people put out a book with some big names to boost his credentials. The video of bruce training and being bad trumps that in the wrong way.

Also, I don't care who jhoon rhee thinks is a good martial practitioner.

[cross_trainer]

I dont care if Bruce lee's public relations people put out a book with some big names to boost his credentials. The video of bruce training and being bad trumps that in the wrong way.

Also, I don't care who jhoon rhee thinks is a good martial practitioner.

Joe Lewis does claim (according to his own organization) that Lee's Jun Fan JKD influenced his own approach, and that he trained productively with Lee. Then again, Mr. Lewis has profited from Lee's name by putting out several JKD books, so you might take it with a grain of salt. :think

[TKDfighterJoe]

Joe Lewis does claim (according to his own organization) that Lee's Jun Fan JKD influenced his own approach, and that he trained productively with Lee. Then again, Mr. Lewis has profited from Lee's name by putting out several JKD books, so you might take it with a grain of salt. :thinkIts all business.

[boxon123]

That is another Bruce Lee follower.

If you look at my first post I say Bruce could probably beat loads of low level martial artists. Streetfighters, amateur boxers etc he could beat. He was a physical talent and trained HARD at what he did. He trained harder then low level athletes like amateur boxers.

But to say that Bruce could beat the best 155 pound fighter to date is nothing short of insane. This is such an interesting thread. The only fight i ever remember lee talking about, he was shocked at how hard it was to defeat a live opponent.

[achillesthegreat]

There is alot of things you need to learn by being involved in real fights. I read that Bruce did weights hard and was 160 pounds. He had a fight and gassed after a couple of minutes because he couldn't finish the fight quickly. After that he apparently changed his weights regime, trained for more stamina and cut to 135 pounds.

[chimba]

Bruce was a bad man. After he died everyone started talking shit

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[Beebs]

Well, hearsay from an actor uninvolved with fighting about Chuck Norris thinking about a hypothetical situation, that changes everything!

[chimba]

Just playing Devils advocate. I could care less. Just want to know if theres anything in print from these same guys questioning or demeaning Bruces legitimacy while Bruce was still alive.

Its almost the same a McCartney claiming he had a hand in Johns great Beatles songs.

[Beebs]

Well there was no real cult of personality around him when he was alive, what exactly where they going to refute? There was no real reason for competitive fighters to say anything about him because he was not a part of their world.

[chimba]

I mean cmon, nothing much have changed. People specially men are very competitive. There were a 5 year span that Bruce was the man of MA. And he was very popular even then. If I was a competing person like Norris(or someone), I would say something specially when Bruce beat him in a film. First thing I would expect would be alot of questions as "what if that was a true fight, who would win?"

Especially those times were not as tolerant as it is now. Someonw would have called out this little chinese man whether on TV, Magazines..whatever. Or not even call him out..just state that "Hes just an actor, hes not really a professional fighter" like Chuck is fond of saying now.

[El Puma]

Bruce supposedly got the better of Norris, according to an LAPD officer, in a sparring match.


Joe Lewis refused to be the white fall guy for Fists of Fury and that part went to Chuck instead.


Joe Lewis refused to train with Bruce until Mike Stone, who was already a Karate tournament bad ass and good friend of Joe's, recommended Bruce.


Bruce NEVER wanted to spar Joe, according to Lewis.


Joe Lewis if memory recalls correctly.l was voted either the decades or century's best fighter. (10 years straight of being a Grand Champion)



Fighting was vanity to Bruce. Movies were his real talent and passion.


I have read that Yip Man was not even his instructor, as he only dealt with higher skilled students and much to Bruce's anger and dismay, refused to be videotaped on his movements and training.


Bruce never entered any comps. Besides a dancing comp. He won. Woopty doo.

The boxing one is shady and cannot be confirmed 100%

[El Puma]

The pressure of being a "martial arts bad ass" led Lee to carry a gun in China.


He was said to have pulled a knife on the big boss director over an argument.


Supposedly Bruce kicked the ass of some guy that jumped his fence and challenged
Bruce. The man never was revealed as to who he really was. Who wouldn't step forward as to say they lost to the legendary Lee and make a buck off it?


Bruce's "fight" against the best that the "masters" had to offer was against Wong jock strap man. Lee ran around chasing him before catching him and punching him numerous times in the back of the head and sitting on the "fighter" until the guy submitted. Bruce would later say he just sat on him because he was too tired to do anything else.


Bruce later became a better conditioned ATHLETE due to this event.

[gungfu]

Bruce supposedly got the better of Norris, according to an LAPD officer, in a sparring match.

Joe Lewis refused to be the white fall guy for Fists of Fury and that part went to Chuck instead.

Joe Lewis refused to train with Bruce until Mike Stone, who was already a Karate tournament bad ass and good friend of Joe's, recommended Bruce.


Bruce NEVER wanted to spar Joe, according to Lewis.

Joe Lewis if memory recalls correctly.l was voted either the decades or century's best fighter. (10 years straight of being a Grand Champion)

Fighting was vanity to Bruce. Movies were his real talent and passion.


I have read that Yip Man was not even his instructor, as he only dealt with higher skilled students and much to Bruce's anger and dismay, refused to be videotaped on his movements and training.

Bruce never entered any comps. Besides a dancing comp. He won. Woopty doo.

The boxing one is shady and cannot be confirmed 100%



- According to eyewitness accounts - Ted Wong, Danny Inosanto and others - Norris did spar with Lee, and was left 'red faced'. Not sure who this LA officer is.

- Lewis turned down Way of The Dragon. Apparently, he didn't want to be seen losing to a little chinese guy. Norris took the role instead. One had successful film and tv career, the other tried afterwards but didn't.

- See earlier post about Lewis and Stone.

- According to Lewis they never sparred; according to other people who worked out when they did, they had full contact sparring. The truth is probably somewher in the middle in that they had full contact work but not actual sparring. I tend to think neither egos would have allowed it without either one backing down and developing into a real fight, which would have not been conducive to a nice training relationship that they had.

- Joe's tournament records speak for themselves.

- Time and time again, Bruce expressed that he was a martial artist first and an actor second. The fact that he is renowned for both nowadays doesn't seem possible, because people only know of his films and opinionate accordingly. Films were his 'vanity' projects.

- Yip Man was his sifu. Such is the heirachy in Wing Chun, the sifu rarely teaches juniors in class, and in the case of Bruce, he was in the early stages mainly taught by Wong Sheung Leung. Wong was the one who used to take Bruce to challenge matches between rival schools on the HK rooftops to get more experience fighting. As Bruce's experience improved he asked and got one-to-one tuition from Yip Man. Yip Man was a known acquaintance of Lee's father as well, through his Cantonese Opera connections.
This was the reason Man accepted Bruce into his school.

The filming request is true, as Bruce did not learn all the forms for the wooden dummy before he left for the US. However, whatever Man's real reasons for refusing to oblige in having Bruce film him is pure conjecture, though the rumour was that he was aware that Bruce was teaching to non-Chinese in the US. Though that never soured their relationship, and Bruce was respectful of his wishes.

- Bruce was a cha-cha champion of HK. He was apparently a skillful dancer and learnt steps easily. As for 'whoppty do', I'm feeling a hint of jealousy at the fact that Bruce could also dance well.

- The boxing match between Bruce's school and the George V school is documented. And has been repeated by people who were there, such as Rolf Klausnitzer.

Thank you for reading.

[gungfu]

The pressure of being a "martial arts bad ass" led Lee to carry a gun in China.


He was said to have pulled a knife on the big boss director over an argument.





Supposedly Bruce kicked the ass of some guy that jumped his fence and challenged

Bruce. The man never was revealed as to who he really was. Who wouldn't step forward as to say they lost to the legendary Lee and make a buck off it?

Bruce's "fight" against the best that the "masters" had to offer was against Wong jock strap man. Lee ran around chasing him before catching him and punching him numerous times in the back of the head and sitting on the "fighter" until the guy submitted. Bruce would later say he just sat on him because he was too tired to do anything else.


Bruce later became a better conditioned ATHLETE due to this event.


- Bruce Lee loved guns. He learnt to shoot in Seattle, and according to Jesse Glover was a good shot. There are photos of Bruce in Jesse's book of Bruce with guns. Steve McQueen gave him his holster from Tom Horn ( IIRC) which is still in Lee's family possession. Robert Lee, his younger brother, sent Bruce a present of a gun hidden inside a can from the US to HK.

Since guns are illegal in HK, he would have never been able to use it and as such, it was just as an ornament. Not sure how this ties in with being a 'martial arts bad ass', whatever that means.

- Lo Wei, the director of the Big Boss was never liked by Bruce. And though his directing was mininal at best, he claimed he discovered Bruce and was responsible for the film to become a hit. Most of the time on set, he was more interested in his next gamble on the horses.

It came to a head when Wei met Bruce after Wei had recently spouted more self-aggrandising pronouncements on his directing abilities and in being the man behind Bruce's success. Bruce warned his should shut his mouth in future, and Lo Wei promptly called the police saying he was threaten by Bruce with knives.

Bruce was asked about this as the media got hold of the story - probably leaked by Wei - and he asked them to look at Lo Wei - a fat old man usually chomping a cigar - and asked them if they thought anyone would really need a knife to threaten Wei.

- Bruce mentioned the guy who jumped into his garden, and how he gave the guy a sidekick to the chest, in a letter to a friend. Bruce was annoyed that he intruded onto private property, and whether he was a fan or not, he was an intruder nonetheless and felt justifed in attacking him.

It's true that any connection to Bruce would have made the media take notice back then, and indeed all types of stories appeared about people beating Bruce all the time. Another one no doubt made the papers after the intrusion. I'm sure people can find it if they look hard enough.

- Bruce Lee was challenged by Wong Jack Man. After the fight, Bruce refered to him as 'The Runner', and because he turned and ran rather than actually fight, Bruce said he (Wong) must have a really sore head and back as his hands are sore after hitting him so much. In order to stop him running, Bruce tripped him and sat on him - very MMA - and ground and pounded him, asking if he conceded, which he duly did.

The fact that the fight lasted for much longer than he thought, and that he became so winded, changed Bruce's approach to martial arts. This incident showed him the importance of cardio and cross-training, something which martial artists of the time rarely did. This incident was also the birth of JKD - the idea that one system was not enough to fight.

[gungfu]

Well there was no real cult of personality around him when he was alive, what exactly where they going to refute? There was no real reason for competitive fighters to say anything about him because he was not a part of their world.


A lot of guys didn't like him, but the guys who he impressed were the more progressive thinking ones - the likes of Wally Jay, Hayward Nishioka, Jhoon Rhee, Ed Parker, Skipper Mullins, Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Mike Stone, Danny Inosanto.. the list goes on...

[El Puma]

Gung Fu,


Well stated. The cha cha win was put in as a wave to the fanatics who place that with a list of accomplishments when asked about Bruce's fight record.


I grew up worshipping Bruce. Then I grew up. Slightly.



The truth is indeed somewhere in between and I still love what Bruce has inspired in my life and training and still feel for Linda and Shannon's loss of father/son/brother/husband.


Lee was as strong as he was vulnerable and weak. It was his battle against his limitations and the way he introduced teachings we ordinarily would not know or care about, into our lives.

[TKDfighterJoe]

All I read is a bunch of people typing out information with no sources, pictures or videos

[gungfu]

All I read is a bunch of people typing out information with no sources, pictures or videos

It's all there, mate.

You just have to open your eyes - and mind - to the facts. Oh, and a bit of research usually helps. And talking to people who knew Bruce, like his family and friends. I've done that. Obviously, you haven't. So, whatever...you can only judge on what you know, eh?

[TKDfighterJoe]

It's all there, mate.

You just have to open your eyes - and mind - to the facts. Oh, and a bit of research usually helps. And talking to people who knew Bruce, like his family and friends. I've done that. Obviously, you haven't. So, whatever...you can only judge on what you know, eh?So you have video of him fighting? Video of him training that doesn't show his shitty-boxing skills? Testimony outside of people his public relations brought in to make money off of him? Someone besides the bunch of burnout actors on his history channel special who don't know shit about fighting?

Sounds like you can only judge him on what you don't know.

[MattMattMatt]

It's all there, mate. You just have to open your eyes - and mind - to the facts.

If by opening eyes and mind to the 'facts' you mean naively believing a few word of mouth opinions, then please, go ahead. I'd rather stick to the real world, where facts and evidence are usually a bit more substantial.

[socrates]

joe lewis is quite simply the greatest western martial artist ever! i wasnt sure wether people were aware of this man on here or not! he was twice voted the 'the man' above lee/wallace etc not just by his fans but by his peers too , legend!

[socrates]

lee was an artist a pioneer a genius! all this 'he would get fucked up by so & so' is playground talk! you are not grasping what he was about nor indeed the essence of true martial arts! he was a GREAT man and would be in anything he applied himself too!

[chimba]

Jesus, I just asked why theres nothing on print, video, radio clip disparaging, brushing aside Lee when he was alive. You had people back then debating whether Wilt was better than Russell etc etc. Somewhere there must be a tidbit of some Martail arts guy especially those who compete in tournaments that Bruce wasnt as good as they portray on TV. Especially since Bruce is chinese and very popular with MA at the time.

Its human nature, say I'm the baddest man in the planet. Shit, I would have exposed that little fucker making millions in movies while I'm broke. I mean you have Van Damme getting lambasted, Seagal, all these guys.. Its human nature to question. I remember when Seagal was asked about Norris, he said, hes gotten better lol.

Even the Gracies back then had respect fro Bruce.. but all these hes just an actor claim I just heard post mortem.

Another thing is, why is that famous celebrities like Steve fuckin Mcqueen, Kareem, Coburn etc etc would want to be trained by this guy when Norris and Lewis were the real deal? I mean I wouldnt waste my freaking time nor money if I was a huge celebrity to sought this guy after. Again, if I was badass I would be a little jealous and call Bruce out so I get them business.

[socrates]

lewis is the godfather of modern day kickboxing! and undisputedly the greatest western karate fighter in history!his legend extends beyond karate! in fact he regularly trained with marciano and ray robinson he even appeared on the front of ring mag.

[socrates]

i could 'ave' em both though! in fact i trained tong po!

[gungfu]

So you have video of him fighting? Video of him training that doesn't show his shitty-boxing skills? Testimony outside of people his public relations brought in to make money off of him? Someone besides the bunch of burnout actors on his history channel special who don't know shit about fighting?


Sounds like you can only judge him on what you don't know.


We're living in different times, and the old and tired refrain that there's no proof in the way of footage, to me, is rather banal and out of place, given that people just don't get filmed fighting like they do nowadays whether by mobile phone or by CCTV on the streets of Swansea on a saturday night.

What we do have is the testimony of people who know their martial arts, and who were either there, or by people who have read or listened to those stories. And to totally dispel the achievements and abilities of Lee is not only to insult him, but to a greater extent, the people that have first hand knowledge of what Bruce could do.

So, in that respect, what it means is that people like Danny Inosanto, Joe Lewis and to a lesser extent, contemporaries like Randy Couture and Dana White, and alike are basically called liars, and are somehow fooled or ignorant in their views of Bruce Lee.

Basically, footage or not, I'd rather takes the testimony of people who were there and knew him, and the people who have subsequently acquired knowledge - probably by speaking to people who knew Lee - and are respected in their own martial arts fields and conclude my opinions based on that. You can call that basing a judgement on what I don't know, but hey, I'm in pretty good company.

As for the money and advertising factor. Do you for a second think people are attracted to MMA and the UFC because Dana White said that he considered Bruce Lee as the father of MMA?

Ignorant, me? Dana White? Or you?

[codeman99998]

We're living in different times, and the old and tired refrain that there's no proof in the way of footage, to me, is rather banal and out of place, given that people just don't get filmed fighting like they do nowadays whether by mobile phone or by CCTV on the streets of Swansea on a saturday night.

Achilles KO1 Lee

[TKDfighterJoe]

We're living in different times, and the old and tired refrain that there's no proof in the way of footage, to me, is rather banal and out of place, given that people just don't get filmed fighting like they do nowadays whether by mobile phone or by CCTV on the streets of Swansea on a saturday night.

What we do have is the testimony of people who know their martial arts, and who were either there, or by people who have read or listened to those stories. And to totally dispel the achievements and abilities of Lee is not only to insult him, but to a greater extent, the people that have first hand knowledge of what Bruce could do.

So, in that respect, what it means is that people like Danny Inosanto, Joe Lewis and to a lesser extent, contemporaries like Randy Couture and Dana White, and alike are basically called liars, and are somehow fooled or ignorant in their views of Bruce Lee.

Basically, footage or not, I'd rather takes the testimony of people who were there and knew him, and the people who have subsequently acquired knowledge - probably by speaking to people who knew Lee - and are respected in their own martial arts fields and conclude my opinions based on that. You can call that basing a judgement on what I don't know, but hey, I'm in pretty good company.

As for the money and advertising factor. Do you for a second think people are attracted to MMA and the UFC because Dana White said that he considered Bruce Lee as the father of MMA?

Ignorant, me? Dana White? Or you?here is video of gichin funakoshi
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

here is some taekwondo from the 70's (I have taekwondo from the 60's too)
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Not only was there video (the very thing bruce lee became famous for), there were records of tournaments. These things fighters go to to prove themselves.

And Im not getting my opinions of bruce lee from the top of my head. I saw the video of him training, which sucked. I saw the video of him performing magic tricks with cooperating assistance, which I see everywhere today in martial arts. I watched his documentary on the history chanel and lisened to the psuedoscientific bullshit he practiced, like running electricity through his body. He took roids and smoked pot. He ripped off Taoism and claimed it was his. His martial philosophy is extremely vauge.

Then I see the absence of proof.

Yes, dana white would say bruce lee was the father of mma to get people interested, dana white is a man whore, and I don't care what he thinks.

Ive been repeating myself now because you are not adressing the specifics of my argument. This is about over.

[gungfu]

here is video of gichin funakoshi

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

here is some taekwondo from the 70's (I have taekwondo from the 60's too)

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Not only was there video (the very thing bruce lee became famous for), there were records of tournaments. These things fighters go to to prove themselves.

And Im not getting my opinions of bruce lee from the top of my head. I saw the video of him training, which sucked. I saw the video of him performing magic tricks with cooperating assistance, which I see everywhere today in martial arts. I watched his documentary on the history chanel and lisened to the psuedoscientific bullshit he practiced, like running electricity through his body. He took roids and smoked pot. He ripped off Taoism and claimed it was his. His martial philosophy is extremely vauge.

Then I see the absence of proof.

Yes, dana white would say bruce lee was the father of mma to get people interested, dana white is a man whore, and I don't care what he thinks.

Ive been repeating myself now because you are not adressing the specifics of my argument. This is about over.

(The simple fact that Bruce didn't compete in tournaments so there's no footage of him doing so, aside.)

The video you saw of Bruce training? The bit were he's hitting the heavybag? You know who I've seen hitting the heavybag in that same style? Jack Dempsey. The same Jack Dempsey of who Lee was a big fan of, and gotten a lot of his boxing knowledge from. But still, it's amazing you can tell everything about a guy in a clip you saw that probably lasted less than a minute. Impressive, to say the least.

And dunno what 'magic tricks' you're on about. You mean stuff like the 'one-inch punch'? Hardly a trick, more simple body physics. These are just for exhibition, and Lee thought of them as such, and no doubt to whoever saw them too. I wouldn't make them to be as important and relevant as you seem to be doing.

'Pseudoscientific bullshit he practiced'. You mean the early versions of the Electrical Muscle Stimulation equipments that are still in use today and by top athletes and coaches? Some people like them, and some people don't. Some use them all the time, some used it along with their regular 'traditional' training. The latter is what Bruce Lee did. You're trying to knock him for trying something new? Or do you believe that's what he used all the time? Or is complete bullshit because you don't use them? Whatever. Hardly a valid reason to bitch about it.

He took cortisone for pain on his back. The back injury is well documented. The fact that he took cortisone injections is not. However, apparently this is what has brought forth the idea that he did 'steriods'. Not given to the fact that steriods were fine and legal back in them days - ask Arnie Schwarzenegger - there is absolutely no proof that he ever did them, and if he did do them, there's no evidence he did it for any regular amount of time. But regardless, no one has spoken about seeing him doing steriods, and no-one has even seen proof in the way of receipts, journal entries or heard of Bruce talking about taking steriods.

My view with Bruce is that being the trial rat he seems to be, he would have looked into it. He had that mindset not to rule anything out, but additionally, I'm sure he would have considered whether it would really have really helped him or not. And on the evidence that he didn't bulk up or screw up his body, I'm personally on the 'doubt it' bracket.

But here's the most important thing in your mentioning of it: why do you consider it to be somehow worthy or important? Is it just another reason to bitch? Lee wasn't in a competive arena, there was no trophies to be won, so why the sensitivity over something that was even legal back then? Which now leads on to your next bitch.

He 'smoked pot'. You're bitching about someone smoking pot? RLY?! Outside of the fact that he didn't like to smoke pot at all but prefered eating hash brownies occasionally makes me think you're simply bitching for the sake of bitching. No other reason as I can see. It was the 60s and 70s, man. Are you square, daddio?

He 'ripped off' Taoism. What? Like he started a new religion based upon his own appreciation of philosophy and spirituality? He was influenced by Taosim, and other beliefs, like the thoughts of Alan Watts, Jiddu Krishnamurthy, Sufism, and many many others. That he used them to his own benefit to better his thoughts and method in life is in some way a negative expression? WTF?! He never claimed anything as his, but merely utilised his knowledge and passed it on. If you have a problem thinking that Lee has somehow appropriated something as his own I would say that would be your own problem, not his.

His 'martial philosophy is extremely vague'. Hmm, that's like saying the Bible is extremely vague. It worked for him, and if it appears vague to you, maybe you follow your own martial philosophy and not denigrate someone else's.

As for Dana White. I like the MMA, I don't watch it because some guy said something about Bruce Lee being the father of it. And I don't watch Couture for the same reasons.


Ok, sure, you may be not getting your 'opinions of bruce lee from the top of my head' but I can certainly think of one other place you've gotten your opinions from. And the sun don't shine there.Obviously. So much hate, dude. And so negative.

[achillesthegreat]

seems to be video footage of joe lewis.

there is fotoage of bruce lee but it is select i.e. him training at his house. funny how that gets recorded but not him destroying numerous real fighters.

[TKDfighterJoe]

(The simple fact that Bruce didn't compete in tournaments so there's no footage of him doing so, aside.)yeah, we'll just throw that little tidbit aside

The video you saw of Bruce training? The bit were he's hitting the heavybag? You know who I've seen hitting the heavybag in that same style? Jack Dempsey. The same Jack Dempsey of who Lee was a big fan of, and gotten a lot of his boxing knowledge from. But still, it's amazing you can tell everything about a guy in a clip you saw that probably lasted less than a minute. Impressive, to say the least.I see him hitting a near-empty heavy bag which wont stay still with shitty technique


And dunno what 'magic tricks' you're on about. You mean stuff like the 'one-inch punch'? Hardly a trick, more simple body physics. These are just for exhibition, and Lee thought of them as such, and no doubt to whoever saw them too. I wouldn't make them to be as important and relevant as you seem to be doing.yeah having some retard believer roll backwards after being one inch punched.


'Pseudoscientific bullshit he practiced'. You mean the early versions of the Electrical Muscle Stimulation equipments that are still in use today and by top athletes and coaches? Some people like them, and some people don't. Some use them all the time, some used it along with their regular 'traditional' training. The latter is what Bruce Lee did. You're trying to knock him for trying something new? Or do you believe that's what he used all the time? Or is complete bullshit because you don't use them? Whatever. Hardly a valid reason to bitch about it.he made a believer out of you.

He took cortisone for pain on his back. The back injury is well documented. The fact that he took cortisone injections is not. However, apparently this is what has brought forth the idea that he did 'steriods'. Not given to the fact that steriods were fine and legal back in them days - ask Arnie Schwarzenegger - there is absolutely no proof that he ever did them, and if he did do them, there's no evidence he did it for any regular amount of time. But regardless, no one has spoken about seeing him doing steriods, and no-one has even seen proof in the way of receipts, journal entries or heard of Bruce talking about taking steriods. you are such a nutthugger, going on a tantrum about how it would be ok if he did them, while at the same time saying there is no way he did!


But here's the most important thing in your mentioning of it: why do you consider it to be somehow worthy or important? Is it just another reason to bitch? Lee wasn't in a competive arena, there was no trophies to be won, so why the sensitivity over something that was even legal back then? Which now leads on to your next bitch.There werent tournaments back then? NEWS TO ME.


He 'smoked pot'. You're bitching about someone smoking pot? RLY?! Outside of the fact that he didn't like to smoke pot at all but prefered eating hash brownies occasionally makes me think you're simply bitching for the sake of bitching. No other reason as I can see. It was the 60s and 70s, man. Are you square, daddio?
I don't do drugs. I don't hate people who do either. I do know that pot/hash is not something used on a regular basis by the elite of the elite. I know a lot of people who had their fighting careers ruined by it. But I guess bruce didn't have a fighting career to begin with.


He 'ripped off' Taoism. What? Like he started a new religion based upon his own appreciation of philosophy and spirituality?he wrote a book with a lot of philiosophy which he didnt accredit.

He was influenced by Taosim, and other beliefs, like the thoughts of Alan Watts, Jiddu Krishnamurthy, Sufism, and many many others. That he used them to his own benefit to better his thoughts and method in life is in some way a negative expression? WTF?! He never claimed anything as his, but merely utilised his knowledge and passed it on. If you have a problem thinking that Lee has somehow appropriated something as his own I would say that would be your own problem, not his.Are you going to be ok?

His 'martial philosophy is extremely vague'. Hmm, that's like saying the Bible is extremely vague. It worked for him, and if it appears vague to you, maybe you follow your own martial philosophy and not denigrate someone else's.Saying 'use what works, don't use what doesnt work' :happy what a genious. It implies that martial arts chose a bunch of stuff at random. The problem is obviously not in knowing to choose what works. The problem is knowing what works.


As for Dana White. I like the MMA, I don't watch it because some guy said something about Bruce Lee being the father of it. And I don't watch Couture for the same reasons.
thats you.

Ok, sure, you may be not getting your 'opinions of bruce lee from the top of my head' but I can certainly think of one other place you've gotten your opinions from. And the sun don't shine there.Obviously. So much hate, dude. And so negative.where would that be?

You have a problem with me dissing a fake?

1. Video of him 'training
2. History channel documentary
3. His tournament record/lack thereof
4. Video of his martial arts demonstration
5. Knowledge of hollywood and their public relations tricks


thats pretty much where I am getting this from.

[coog]

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Lee's grappling isn't in the same stratosphere as BJ's. If he keeps it standing BJ's boxing alone would dominate Lee's stand up. BJ's chin is too strong and his punch too powerful for the fight to go long. That's not even taking into account that BJ's hands are FAR superior to Lee's.
Are you nuts?

[coog]

lewis is the godfather of modern day kickboxing! and undisputedly the greatest western karate fighter in history!his legend extends beyond karate! in fact he regularly trained with marciano and ray robinson he even appeared on the front of ring mag.
Are you nuts? Joe Lewis was a product of the late60's and 70's

[achillesthegreat]

Are you nuts?

BJ Penn would dominate Lee so bad that Bruce would be calling him daddy before the first round is over.

[codeman99998]

BJ Penn would dominate Lee so bad that Bruce would be calling him daddy before the first round is over.

Bruce would be unconcious before the first round was over more likely.