the '67 heavyweight tournament - what if?

[red cobra]

In '67 an ambitious tournament was set up by the WBA to ultimately find a successor to the deposed champ Muhammad Ali, who just beginning his 3 years of exile. The match-ups were set up as such:
Jimmy Ellis vs Leotis Martin: winner- Jimmy Ellis by 9th round tko
Thad Spencer vs Ernie Terrell: winner- Thad Spencer by 12 round decision
Oscar Bonavena vs Karl Mildenberger: winner- Oscar Bonavana by 12 round decision.
Jerry Quarry vs Floyd Patterson: winner- Jerry Quarry by 12 round decision
The semi-finals went like this:
Jimmy Ellis vs Oscar Bonavena: winner Jimmy Ellis by 12 round decision
Jerry Quarry vs Thad Spencer: winner Jerry Quarry by 12th round tko
And the final:
Jimmy Ellis vs Jerry Quarry: winner and crowned new WBA Heavyweight Champion....Jimmy Ellis!!!
Now, my question is this...how might have heavyweight boxing history have been changed if the initial match-ups been different? Bearing in mind that we're talking about the same selected fighters..only matched against different guys than who they originally fought in the initial stage of the tournament. Certain fighters were glaringly omitted from the tournament from the beginning, such as Joe Frazier, who refused to take part, and Sonny Liston, George Chuvalo and Buster Mathis, who just weren't "invited"..
So, I guess, to get the ball rolling, let's start with these match-ups, and proceed from there, and if anyone else has a more intrigueing set of match-ups, then by all means, let's see 'em..
Jimmy Ellis vs Ernie Terrell
Leotis Martin vs Jerry Quarry
Thad Spencer vs Oscar Bonavena
Floyd Patterson vs Karl Mildenberger

[My dinner with Conteh]

All the underdogs won in that tournament.

[red cobra]

Thread saving attempt #1.

[Stevie G]

I always rated Terrel higher than Ellis. Ernie would have taken it on points. Quarry would have beaten Spencer,and Mildenberger may have upset Floyd.

[Hookie]

I always felt Patterson should have prevailed, but oh well.

I would have liked to have seen Machen and Folley in this BTW.

[Stevie G]

Sonny Liston would still have been competitive in that tournament.

[young griffo]

Thread saving attempt #1.
:lol:
Interesting thread actually (nothing worse than typing out a big arsed new post that you've sweated over,just to be ignored).

Ellis vs Terrell-I reckon Ellis had the skills and activity to out score and out box the taller Terrell.

Quarry vs Martin-Martin hit hard but Quarry was teak tough as we know and his ability to duke it out at mid range and counter punch would see him prevail by TKO late.

Spencer vs Bonavena-I know Spencer beat Terrell but I doubt he really earnt a spot in this tournament tbh.Anyway I think Bonavena as crude as he was had the chin and strength to wade in and give Spencer a good going over for a wiiide UD.

Patterson vs Mildenberger-Patterson was past his best but he was still formidable.Mildenberger whilst he did O.K against Ali would get whipped here.Floyd still had great handspeed,threw accurate punches with good power and had a great record of disposing of lesser opponents.And make no mistake Mildenberger was the lesser fighter here.I think Patterson takes this by K.O in 4.

[red cobra]

All good posts...(and not just because I'm glad that somebody noticed this thread-lol) because actually, it's possible that someone other than Ellis could have won this tournament if the matchups were different..you know-styles make fights.

[red cobra]

:lol:
Interesting thread actually (nothing worse than typing out a big arsed new post that you've sweated over,just to be ignored).

Ellis vs Terrell-I reckon Ellis had the skills and activity to out score and out box the taller Terrell.

Quarry vs Martin-Martin hit hard but Quarry was teak tough as we know and his ability to duke it out at mid range and counter punch would see him prevail by TKO late.

Spencer vs Bonavena-I know Spencer beat Terrell but I doubt he really earnt a spot in this tournament tbh.Anyway I think Bonavena as crude as he was had the chin and strength to wade in and give Spencer a good going over for a wiiide UD.

Patterson vs Mildenberger-Patterson was past his best but he was still formidable.Mildenberger whilst he did O.K against Ali would get whipped here.Floyd still had great handspeed,threw accurate punches with good power and had a great record of disposing of lesser opponents.And make no mistake Mildenberger was the lesser fighter here.I think Patterson takes this by K.O in 4.
Actually, I agree with your picks here..

[red cobra]

Well, thread saving attempt #2..it's really a bit more intreresting than the one billionth go at "Who's the Hardest Hitting Heavyweight" or "My Top 500 Fighters"...

[GPater11093]

Interesting thread but I cant comment on it as I dont know enough about the fighters.

[turpinr]

Sonny Liston would still have been competitive in that tournament.
yeah,he was avoided like the plague.joe frazier's mangement wanted nothing to do with him and rightly so:goodsonny was persona non grata by then though.

[young griffo]

Well, thread saving attempt #2..it's really a bit more intreresting than the one billionth go at "Who's the Hardest Hitting Heavyweight" or "My Top 500 Fighters"...

If we agree on Ellis,Quarry,Bonanvena and Patterson winning round 1 then who fights who in round 2??

Come on I can feel a faint pulse for this thread yet, lets see how it plays out.:good

[Woller]

I agree on Ellis, Bonavena and Quarry, but I think that Mildenberger had a chance to beat Patterson. At that stage Mildenberger could have a few good fights left in him instead of being destroyed by Bonavena and Martin. As much as I love Floyd, he was fading at that point and Mildenberger could have won a decision against Floyd who sometimes fell asleep during fights and stopped working.

Woller

[red cobra]

If we agree on Ellis,Quarry,Bonanvena and Patterson winning round 1 then who fights who in round 2??

Come on I can feel a faint pulse for this thread yet, lets see how it plays out.:good
:lol::lol::thumbsup..Yeah there's hope yet...I guess at this point, you can play some creative matchmaking for the semi's based on who you think would have won the first matchups...I just thought I would lay back and see what scenarios you guys think would play out based on the second round of the tournament...I guess I would match up Ellis vs Patterson and Quarry vs Bonavena...who knows..maybe it would end up for the final just like it actually happened, but not necessarily..it would have been interesting if Liston, Mathis and Chuvalo were invited, but they weren't for some reason that only the WBA knew of, and Frazier elected to follow his own course, which involved Mathis, as we know, but I just though I'd confine the thread to the original participants of the tourney...for the sake of speculation..

[red cobra]

I agree on Ellis, Bonavena and Quarry, but I think that Mildenberger had a chance to beat Patterson. At that stage Mildenberger could have a few good fights left in him instead of being destroyed by Bonavena and Martin. As much as I love Floyd, he was fading at that point and Mildenberger could have won a decision against Floyd who sometimes fell asleep during fights and stopped working.

Woller
Mildenberger was certainly troubling, but would he offer Patterson the same troubles as he did Ali? Or would Floyd improve on Ali's showing against Karl like he did against Cooper, whom he ko'ed far more emphatically than did Ali?

[Woller]

I simply don´t know. Did Floyd fight more than one portsider? Agosto? Mildenberger could have fiddled his way to a decison (absolutly in Germany). Floyd did not have the brute power to blow Karl aside as Bonavena had. On the other hand I am very fond of watching dear old Floyd outpoint Oscar and at times make it look easy. Styles makes fights - And I love thinking about the good old 60ties and 70ties heavyweights.

Woller

[red cobra]

I believe that Floyd would have looked more impressive in kayoing Mildenburger than Ali, as he did in stopping Henry Cooper, as I alluded to previously, but certainly Karl had a chance just based on his southpaw awkwardness. Let's say that Floyd did beat him, and you had as a field of finishers for the semi finals Ellis, Bonavena, Quarry and Patterson..and you guys were the matchmakers...what would the semi-matchups be?

[young griffo]

Patterson vs Ellis-Well we know this fight actually took place but the result was controversial with some calling it a robbery.I disagree as I thought Ellis won the majority of early rounds against a passive Floyd,who did come on strong late.But all up I thought Ellis deserved the nod in a close one (although I haven't seen it for years and am going by memory) .I can't see a match up in 67 being much different.Both were evenly matched but Ellis' youth and greater activity give him the slightest of edges for a SD.

Quarry vs Bonanvena-This is a great match up that I'm surprised never actually occured.They both were tough,had iron chins and decent power but Quarry had a big edge in talent.A lot of rounds would be very hard fought and close but Quarry was great at finding openings against aggressive fighters and this would allow him to outscore the aggressive Argentinian.Quarry scores a flash knockdown enroute to a unanimous decision.

Ellis vs Quarry-Well it's the same final and it's safe to assume it would be the same result.Ellis keeps the fight at a distance with his very good jab and fast straight right and refuses to engage Quarry in any long exchanges thus preventing Jerry from finding any counter punching opporunities.In a dull affair Ellis scores more often and endures Quarry's occasional hard punches to take a decision in a tactical fight over his less experienced opponent.

So the end result probably would've played out the same unless of course you throw guys like Frazier,Liston or perhaps even Chuvalo into the mix.Jimmy Ellis was the right man at the right time.

[red cobra]

Patterson vs Ellis-Well we know this fight actually took place but the result was controversial with some calling it a robbery.I disagree as I thought Ellis won the majority of early rounds against a passive Floyd,who did come on strong late.But all up I thought Ellis deserved the nod in a close one (although I haven't seen it for years and am going by memory) .I can't see a match up in 67 being much different.Both were evenly matched but Ellis' youth and greater activity give him the slightest of edges for a SD.

Quarry vs Bonanvena-This is a great match up that I'm surprised never actually occured.They both were tough,had iron chins and decent power but Quarry had a big edge in talent.A lot of rounds would be very hard fought and close but Quarry was great at finding openings against aggressive fighters and this would allow him to outscore the aggressive Argentinian.Quarry scores a flash knockdown enroute to a unanimous decision.

Ellis vs Quarry-Well it's the same final and it's safe to assume it would be the same result.Ellis keeps the fight at a distance with his very good jab and fast straight right and refuses to engage Quarry in any long exchanges thus preventing Jerry from finding any counter punching opporunities.In a dull affair Ellis scores more often and endures Quarry's occasional hard punches to take a decision in a tactical fight over his less experienced opponent.

So the end result probably would've played out the same unless of course you throw guys like Frazier,Liston or perhaps even Chuvalo into the mix.Jimmy Ellis was the right man at the right time.
Yes, there would have been a chance that with different matchups from what was actually fought that the best man of the bunch, Jimmy Ellis would have come out on top again...I tend to agree with your picks by and large YG...the Quarry-Bonavena bout sounds plausible to me...Quarry winning it on the basis of his better skills, yet in a similar bout against Chuvalo, one would have thought the same thing, and a single lapse of attention, well maybe two lapses, allowing himself to be put in position to bew decked by Chuvalo, THEN unbelievably losing track of the count...well I agree with you on Quarry-Bonavena. I haven't quite decided on Ellis-Patterson yet.

[mattdonnellon]

The first point about the tourney is that allmost all the fighters picked by experts like us lost so our current speculation is equally suspect. Secondly Liston was excluded for obvious commercial reasons and his perceived mob connections. Had Mathis fought Chuvalo at this point? if he hadn't then Chuvalo or Cooper should have been invited before Mathis, if Mathis had the win, then he should have been in with Spencer out.
Cany really pick anyone to beat Ellis though, to be fair.

[young griffo]

Yes, there would have been a chance that with different matchups from what was actually fought that the best man of the bunch, Jimmy Ellis would have come out on top again...I tend to agree with your picks by and large YG...the Quarry-Bonavena bout sounds plausible to me...Quarry winning it on the basis of his better skills, yet in a similar bout against Chuvalo, one would have thought the same thing, and a single lapse of attention, well maybe two lapses, allowing himself to be put in position to bew decked by Chuvalo, THEN unbelievably losing track of the count...well I agree with you on Quarry-Bonavena. I haven't quite decided on Ellis-Patterson yet.
I actually considered the Quarry-Chuvalo fight when trying to decide Jerry's fight with Bonavena but I thought the chances of Quarry getting floored were remote and the chances of him again losing track of the count even remoter.

Still Quarry was beating Chuvalo before his blunder and I just think he'd be able to do the same against the equally as crude Bonavena.