Primes: Hagler versus Pavlik?

[Rumsfeld]

Thoughts?

[EspadaYdaga]

Is this some sort of fucking joke?

[El Bombasto]

Hagler KO2

[El Presidente]

Is this some sort of fucking joke?i guess so

[Danny Ocean]

:lol: :lol:

[ThePlugInBabies]

hagler by death.

[Lostmykeys]

Nice one.:lol::lol:

[cross_trainer]

It's a legitimate thread, given that Pavlik is now the linear champion. A bit like "Jermain Taylor vs. Hagler" or "Rocky Graziano vs. Hagler".

This would end in roughly the same way as a fight against Graziano would--short and nasty, with Hagler walking through Pavlik's punches and forcing him to trade to his disadvantage.

Hagler by KO within the first five rounds.

[The taff]

Difficult one this :lol:

[ThePlugInBabies]

It's a legitimate thread, given that Pavlik is now the linear champion. A bit like "Jermain Taylor vs. Hagler" or "Rocky Graziano vs. Hagler".

This would end in roughly the same way as a fight against Graziano would--short and nasty, with Hagler walking through Pavlik's punches and forcing him to trade to his disadvantage.

Hagler by KO within the first five rounds.

i suppose but it's still too early really to be comparing him to guys of haglers class. we've already had pavlik paired with a smw monster in benn earlier. i'm always curious of the thread starters motives when threads like this pop up in the general forum.

[Jack]

Yeah, I don't see why people aren't taking this seriously. Pavlik looks awkward, but has a good chin and can crack. Put that with his work output, and he is a tough fight for almost any other linear title holder. Outside of stylistic difficulties, he should ao rlgith any top middleweights, even if he does lose.

I think Hagler beats him though. He is too good, but it'd be a great fight. Hagler TKO 6.

[2smart4u]

It's a legitimate thread, given that Pavlik is now the linear champion. A bit like "Jermain Taylor vs. Hagler" or "Rocky Graziano vs. Hagler".

This would end in roughly the same way as a fight against Graziano would--short and nasty, with Hagler walking through Pavlik's punches and forcing him to trade to his disadvantage.

Hagler by KO within the first five rounds.:smoke Do you really beleive that ? HAGLER couldnt put much lesser fighters away ! And dont compare PAV to HEARNS ! HEARNS could not take a great shot and PAV is the much sturdier guy !

[cross_trainer]

i suppose but it's still too early really to be comparing him to guys of haglers class. we've already had pavlik paired with a smw monster in benn earlier. i'm always curious of the thread starters motives when threads like this pop up in the general forum.

True, but even a fighter like Mugabi (who was also a huge, limited puncher) was viewed as a legitimate opponent for Hagler. While it's highly unlikely that Pavlik would beat the Marvelous One, he certainly has the ability to give him some trouble.

Hagler KO 4-5.

[cross_trainer]

:smoke Do you really beleive that ? HAGLER couldnt put much lesser fighters away ! And dont compare PAV to HEARNS ! HEARNS could not take a great shot and PAV is the much sturdier guy !
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! It's a middleweight Klitschko cult! :yikes






























:D

[EspadaYdaga]

Erm I wonder why people aren't taking this seriously? It couldn't be because we are comparing a guy that has beaten one genuine world class opponent to one of the all time greats could it?

I mean for fucks sake :roll:

[The Whaler]

Hagler possesses 1/5 of the abilities of Jean-Francois Bergeron.

Hagler would murder Pavlik.

[2smart4u]

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! It's a middleweight Klitschko cult! :yikes






























:D:patsch More like the ROSE COLORED GLASSES CULT to me ! Last time I checked I didnt make a prdiction ! You on the other hand claim HAGLER would Ko a guy when stylisticly he appears to be a nightmare for HAGLER ! :deal

[The Whaler]

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! It's a middleweight Klitschko cult! :yikes






























:D
:lol:

[2smart4u]

Erm I wonder why people aren't taking this seriously? It couldn't be because we are comparing a guy that has beaten one genuine world class opponent to one of the all time greats could it?

I mean for fucks sake :roll::patsch ALL TIME GREAT ! you realize ther is no such thing dont you !:hey

[cross_trainer]

:patsch More like the ROSE COLORED GLASSES CULT to me ! Last time I checked I didnt make a prdiction ! You on the other hand claim HAGLER would Ko a guy when stylisticly he appears to be a nightmare for HAGLER ! :deal

Why is Pavlik a stylistic nightmare for Hagler?

It's pretty obvious that a combination of leaky defense, limited experience on the top level, a chin that can be dented, and an inability to hurt Hagler will make matters rather....difficult.

[cross_trainer]

:patsch ALL TIME GREAT ! you realize ther is no such thing dont you !:hey

In that case, Butterbean KO 3 Ali.

[EspadaYdaga]

:patsch ALL TIME GREAT ! you realize ther is no such thing dont you !:hey
If you seriously need to think about the answer to the question there probably isn't such thing since you have already demeaned their achievements.

[cross_trainer]

Hagler possesses 1/5 of the abilities of Jean-Francois Bergeron.

Hagler would murder Pavlik.

Impossible, since 1/5 * infinity is still infinity, and we all know that Bergeron is the only fighter with infinite skill.

[2smart4u]

Why is Pavlik a stylistic nightmare for Hagler?

It's pretty obvious that a combination of leaky defense, limited experience on the top level, a chin that can be dented, and an inability to hurt Hagler will make matters rather....difficult.:patsch Very tall with plenty of power in both hands and a great left jab ! Im sure you remember HAGLER having plenty of problems with these traits ! :bbbAnd Im sure MARVIN would make things dificult for anyone win or lose !

[2smart4u]

In that case, Butterbean KO 3 Ali.:patsch BUTTERBEAN isnt any good in this time ! Its empossible to claim anything on an all time basis ! :hi:

[cross_trainer]

:patsch Very tall with plenty of power in both hands and a great left jab ! Im sure you remember HAGLER having plenty of problems with these traits ! :bbb

You mean like the time he walked through the punches from tall, powerpunching, left-jabbing Hearns? Or the time he absorbed hard-hitting Mugabi's punches for multiple rounds and destroyed him?

And I wouldn't say Pavlik's jab is THAT great anyway.

[cross_trainer]

:patsch BUTTERBEAN isnt any good in this time ! Its empossible to claim anything on an all time basis ! :hi:

All time greats are fighters who have the most impressive achievements. Unless you don't believe there's such a thing as an impressive achievement (and if you don't, how do you rate fighters?)

[EspadaYdaga]

Are you aware Hagler was never knocked out in his career?

So if you are saying Pavlik has a chance, are you saying he is going to be the first to knock him out?

Or is he going to outbox him and win on points? :?

[2smart4u]

You mean like the time he walked through the punches from tall, powerpunching, left-jabbing Hearns?

And I wouldn't say Pavlik's jab is THAT great anyway.:lol: Do you think TOMMYS very weak chin may have had something to do with that ! And the last time I checked HAGLER had a pretty rough couple of rounds with the former welter ! PAV is a much different animal then the fragile TOMMY !:bbb

[2smart4u]

All time greats are fighters who have the most impressive achievements. Unless you don't believe there's such a thing as an impressive achievement (and if you don't, how do you rate fighters?):lol: There is no way to truley compare one era to another objectivly ! thats a fact !:bbb

[Club Fighter]

Actually, I can see Kelly Pavlik pulling this off. He would start out employing his superior boxing skills, bobbing n weaving, sticking n moving, throwing Hagler all types of fits. This would go on with Pavlik virtually untouched for the better part of 8 rounds before he decides to show his true pedigree and change the Marvelous one to the Miserable one with one crushing overhand right that lands with a thud across Hagler's temple sending him sprawling to the canvas, dazed, rendering him unable to beat the 10 count. Pavlik KO8 Hagler.


P.S. Sorry for the super extreme run-on sentence.

[The Whaler]

Actually, I can see Kelly Pavlik pulling this off. He would start out employing his superior boxing skills, bobbing n weaving, sticking n moving, throwing Hagler all types of fits. This would go on with Pavlik virtually untouched for the better part of 8 rounds before he decides to show his true pedigree and change the Marvelous one to the Miserable one with one crushing overhand right that lands with a thud across the Hagler's temple sending him sprawling to the canvas, dazed, rendering him unable to beat the 10 count. Pavlik KO8 Hagler.


P.S. Sorry for the super extreme run-on sentence.

I agree. If there's one word you can use to describe Pavlik it's "unhittable".

[cross_trainer]

:lol: Do you think TOMMYS very weak chin may have had something to do with that ! And the last time I checked HAGLER had a pretty rough couple of rounds with the former welter !


A former welter who comfortably bulked up all the way to cruiserweight?

Hagler didn't have much trouble with Hearns--he absorbed everything thrown at him without budging, and proceeded to demolish Tommy. That, and the fact that Pavlik isn't remotely as skilled or precise as Hearns was.


PAV is a much different animal then the fragile TOMMY !:bbb

Hey, YOU'RE the one who said Hagler had trouble with two-fisted power, height, and a good left jab. Give me an example of a fight where he had trouble with these. If it isn't the Hearns fight, which is it?

[cross_trainer]

:lol: There is no way to truley compare one era to another objectivly ! thats a fact !:bbb

Considering that this is already a fantasy fight thread, isn't that point a little irrelevant?

[Alo2006]

Here we go with this BS. Hagler by KO. What's next Hearns :lol:

[brooklyn1550]

Hagler TKO3 Pavlik

[sandwichsurgeon]

Hagler would eat the Pavlik that fought Taylor in 3 rounds, Miranda must have been weak (drained) when he fought Pavlik if he couldn't do to Pavlik what Taylor came close to doing in the 2nd.

[cross_trainer]

Here we go with this BS. Hagler by KO. What's next Hearns :lol:

Apparently, Pavlik is better than Hearns because he has a better chin.

[kg0208]

Actually, I can see Kelly Pavlik pulling this off. He would start out employing his superior boxing skills, bobbing n weaving, sticking n moving, throwing Hagler all types of fits. This would go on with Pavlik virtually untouched for the better part of 8 rounds before he decides to show his true pedigree and change the Marvelous one to the Miserable one with one crushing overhand right that lands with a thud across Hagler's temple sending him sprawling to the canvas, dazed, rendering him unable to beat the 10 count. Pavlik KO8 Hagler.


P.S. Sorry for the super extreme run-on sentence.
Pavlik doesn't have the power to stop Hagler. Or even make him wary for that matter. And Hagler had better skills than Pavlik has shown so far, who seems to pop out the jab and come with a right to the head. Even Taylor, who is not a great defensive fighter was countering him last night until he got caught. Hagler would rape Pavlik to the body and stop him in the mid rounds. Pavlik has much to improve upon.

Why are we doing these threads now? Are we gonna match him with Hopkins and Jones too? What about Monzon? Greb?

[Lostmykeys]

Actually, I can see Kelly Pavlik pulling this off. He would start out employing his superior boxing skills, bobbing n weaving, sticking n moving, throwing Hagler all types of fits. This would go on with Pavlik virtually untouched for the better part of 8 rounds before he decides to show his true pedigree and change the Marvelous one to the Miserable one with one crushing overhand right that lands with a thud across Hagler's temple sending him sprawling to the canvas, dazed, rendering him unable to beat the 10 count. Pavlik KO8 Hagler.


P.S. Sorry for the super extreme run-on sentence.

That better have been a joke.

This whole thread better be a joke.

[Alo2006]

Apparently, Pavlik is better than Hearns because he has a better chin.


:-(

[cross_trainer]

:-(

It didn't make much sense to me either to pick ONE variable and decide that it's the only important one. It's like picking Carnera to beat Tyson because of his weight advantage.

[brooklyn1550]

:lol: Do you think TOMMYS very weak chin may have had something to do with that ! And the last time I checked HAGLER had a pretty rough couple of rounds with the former welter ! PAV is a much different animal then the fragile TOMMY !:bbb

Give it up...Hagler would destroy Pavlik

[sandwichsurgeon]

It didn't make much sense to me either to pick ONE variable and decide that it's the only important one. It's like picking Carnera to beat Tyson because of his weight advantage.

If Carnera had retired instead of fighting Louis many people on here would say that because the majority seems to only take into account the physical factors and the styles.

[cross_trainer]

If Carnera had retired instead of fighting Louis many people on here would say that because the majority seems to only take into account the physical factors and the styles.

Many skip styles altogether and focus just on size, chin, and power.

[The Whaler]

Pavlik doesn't have the power to stop Hagler. Or even make him wary for that matter. And Hagler had better skills than Pavlik has shown so far, who seems to pop out the jab and come with a right to the head. Even Taylor, who is not a great defensive fighter was countering him last night until he got caught. Hagler would rape Pavlik to the body and stop him in the mid rounds. Pavlik has much to improve upon.

Why are we doing these threads now? Are we gonna match him with Hopkins and Jones too? What about Monzon? Greb?

A similar thing happened when Pac beat Morales in the rubber match.

Suddenly we were expected to believe that Pac would murder Duran and JCC because Pac is "in better shape".

Ironically this nonsense takes away from the fighter, instead of making him look good.

[Toopretty]

If you instigate a fight with Marvin Hagler the way Pavlik does in his fights. Pavlik would be seeing stars b/c Marvelous would crack that body and give him a dose of uppercuts. Nobody out brawls Hagler..nobody.....at 160

[cross_trainer]

If you instigate a fight with Marvin Hagler the way Pavlik does in his fights. Pavlik would be seeing stars b/c Marvelous would crack that body and give him a dose of uppercuts. Nobody out brawls Hagler..nobody.....at 160

Greb and Fitzsimmons might.

[kg0208]

My problem is that somehow Hagler has become known as a brawler. Hagler had good boxing skills. Sure he brawled with Hearns. But he was a boxer as well.

[Toopretty]

Greb and Fitzsimmons might.

You classic guys...

[Toopretty]

My problem is that somehow Hagler has become known as a brawler. Hagler had good boxing skills. Sure he brawled with Hearns. But he was a boxer as well.

pavlik would lure any fighter in to a brawl as Hagler would be willing to brawl with pavlik it would make his job easier. I dont know much of Greb and Fitzsimmons but of old wise tales and folklore. So I cannot comment.

[cross_trainer]

You classic guys...

:lol:

[PolishPummler]

Too early for this kind of thread.Pavlik looks good but now we have to wait and see how is run as a Champ will go.

Hagler is a long time proven HOF ATG Champ.How could you not favor him right now?

[cross_trainer]

I dont know much of Greb and Fitzsimmons but of old wise tales and folklore. So I cannot comment.

He has a manual describing exactly how he fought on Google Books, plus 24 minutes of footage against Corbett and a little bit from another fight. There's just enough to get a good idea of how he fought.

Greb....well, he's mostly a boxrec record at this point. But we know his opponents were pretty good, since most of their film survives.

[kg0208]

pavlik would lure any fighter in to a brawl as Hagler would be willing to brawl with pavlik it would make his job easier. I dont know much of Greb and Fitzsimmons but of old wise tales and folklore. So I cannot comment.

Hagler wouldn't have to brawl Pavlik. Taylor could have beaten him if he hadn't of brawled him.

Let me put it this way, Pavlik couldn't have gotten Jones or Hopkins to brawl with him, or Toney or Nunn. Great boxers or skilled fighters could time Pavlik and elude him. He is simply imposing his will on fighters and making them fight his fight. Great fighters won't necessarily fall into that trap. As we saw last night, he can be countered pretty easy right now. He needs to mix his attack up and go to the body more.

[Toopretty]

He has a manual describing exactly how he fought on Google Books, plus 24 minutes of footage against Corbett and a little bit from another fight. There's just enough to get a good idea of how he fought.

Greb....well, he's mostly a boxrec record at this point. But we know his opponents were pretty good, since most of their film survives.

I respect the classic fighters of the past. They were some tough son of a guns. They had skills. I watch the old classic fights and they had pretty much everything. Well, some. They had footwork, defense, hand speed. Thats why I respect the classic posters b/c you guys look more in depth. I know there were great fighters pre-Sugar Ray Rob. :yep

[cross_trainer]

I respect the classic fighters of the past. They were some tough son of a guns. They had skills. I watch the old classic fights and they had pretty much everything. Well, some. They had footwork, defense, hand speed. Thats why I respect the classic posters b/c you guys look more in depth. I know there were great fighters pre-Sugar Ray Rob. :yep

Thank'ee. :D

It certainly beats watching Calzaghe, that's for sure.

[Coast]

Why don't mods ever close the threads that need to be closed?

[Toopretty]

Hagler wouldn't have to brawl Pavlik. Taylor could have beaten him if he hadn't of brawled him.

Let me put it this way, Pavlik couldn't have gotten Jones or Hopkins to brawl with him, or Toney or Nunn. Great boxers or skilled fighters could time Pavlik and elude him. He is simply imposing his will on fighters and making them fight his fight. Great fighters won't necessarily fall into that trap. As we saw last night, he can be countered pretty easy right now. He needs to mix his attack up and go to the body more.

I havent really seen a fighter like Pavlik that is looking to exchange from round 1. It would be hard to avoid a brawl by the way he has a pretty good effective jab. His body attack is good if he uses it. But JT would of got knocked out if he didnt get Pavliks respect early. JT did not expect to hurt him as you can tell by the way he could not finish the job. JT did the right thing by throwing Pavlik off and making the fight go at an akward pace. JT has mental stigmas in the ring. Like when his back touches the ropes thats the only time he really gets aggresive. He should of showed that when he had pavlik out on his feet in round two. Just a little rough housing and Pavlik would of been gone. He needs to watch some Hagler fights.

[2smart4u]

Considering that this is already a fantasy fight thread, isn't that point a little irrelevant?:lol: Absolutly ! thats why I was refering to the poster who claimed HAGLER would win because he was an all time great ! I wish you would take a look at the context of my replys before suggesting what you think I was getting at ! :deal

[Fighting Weight]

You mean like the time he walked through the punches from tall, powerpunching, left-jabbing Hearns? Or the time he absorbed hard-hitting Mugabi's punches for multiple rounds and destroyed him?

And I wouldn't say Pavlik's jab is THAT great anyway.

Nope, it isn't.

Christ it looks like we're going to have a 'Pavlik fan quote of the week' thread series soon :patsch

[brooklyn1550]

Pavlik adjusted nice yesterday. He started to use the jab more and he was finding the mark with it over and over. But like kg said, he should definitely go to the body more.

[cross_trainer]

Nope, it isn't.

Christ it looks like we're going to have a 'Pavlik fan quote of the week' thread series soon :patsch

To Pavlik's credit, though, he did beat the LINEAL middleweight champion, so these compliments are somewhat more warranted. Wlad has not done so in his own division yet.

[kg0208]

If I see a Pavlik vs Jones prime for prime thread, and Pavlik even gets 30% of the votes, I am taking a week off just to make sure I am not hallucinating.

[Mrvooh]

Same ole crap...A guy wins who is not favored, and suddenly every past champ would beat him...Perhaps Hagler WOULD...but so many people said Lacy was gonna beat Joe....Taylor is gonna beat PAvlik...I've heard this all before. NO ONE knows who from the past would beat who from today...it's all personal bias of one sort or another.:twisted:

[2smart4u]

A former welter who comfortably bulked up all the way to cruiserweight?

Hagler didn't have much trouble with Hearns--he absorbed everything thrown at him without budging, and proceeded to demolish Tommy. That, and the fact that Pavlik isn't remotely as skilled or precise as Hearns was.



Hey, YOU'RE the one who said Hagler had trouble with two-fisted power, height, and a good left jab. Give me an example of a fight where he had trouble with these. If it isn't the Hearns fight, which is it?:lol: TOMMY was koed at welter so your point makes no sence ! Regardless of where he bulked up to he was a feeble guy and PAV is a large powerful and durable guy ! And HAG was busted up by TOMMY if you recall !

[Ambition_Def]

Hagler was a deliberate pressure fighter with decent power and a good chin, stocky and a lower center of gravity.

I think Pavlik takes a better shot than Hearns, despite both having some very common attributes. Pavlik is also a bit more filled out as a middleweight than Hearns who started as a welterweight.

I have to believe that if Hearns hurt Hagler, Pavlik could too. I don't think Hagler would stop Pavlik as quickly as he did Hearns. I think it's a bit closer than that.

There's no reason to believe that Hagler couldn't impose his will on Pavlik. But there is also no reason to believe that Pavik's power wouldn't push Hagler back.

The one thing I think would be a factor is Hagler's uppercut. He threw this punch well and I think it'd give Pavlik some trouble.

I see Hagler winning late but not without having his chin tested something serious.

[2smart4u]

Hagler was a deliberate pressure fighter with decent power and a good chin, stocky and a lower center of gravity.

I think Pavlik takes a better shot than Hearns, despite both having some very common attributes. Pavlik is also a bit more filled out as a middleweight than Hearns who started as a welterweight.

I have to believe that if Hearns hurt Hagler, Pavlik could too. I don't think Hagler would stop Pavlik as quickly as he did Hearns. I think it's a bit closer than that.

There's no reason to believe that Hagler couldn't impose his will on Pavlik. But there is also no reason to believe that Pavik's power wouldn't push Hagler back.

The one thing I think would be a factor is Hagler's uppercut. He threw this punch well and I think it'd give Pavlik some trouble.

I see Hagler winning late but not without having his chin tested something serious.:good Much more reasonable ! And for the record HAGLER couldnt put away the limited VITO in the first fight and VITO is nowhere near as good as PAV !

[Toopretty]

Same ole crap...A guy wins who is not favored, and suddenly every past champ would beat him...Perhaps Hagler WOULD...but so many people said Lacy was gonna beat Joe....Taylor is gonna beat PAvlik...I've heard this all before. NO ONE knows who from the past would beat who from today...it's all personal bias of one sort or another.:twisted:

I guess never realized that Lacy never was regarded as an elite fighter and was just fun to watch. I guess you forgot that part. Lacy was the worst of the so called best over here. If Calnobody beat hopkins/ Roy/ winky shit...even tarver at any point in his career. And if he stopped ducking Glen Johnson claiming hand injuries then going on to fight Manfredo. I guess the UK forgot about that. I didnt... Then we would shoot him over more respect.

[2smart4u]

To Pavlik's credit, though, he did beat the LINEAL middleweight champion, so these compliments are somewhat more warranted. Wlad has not done so in his own division yet.:patsch So who is the LINEAL that VLAD must beat ! I think he is a tad more accomlished at heavy then PAV is at MIDDLE !:bbb

[brooklyn1550]

:good Much more reasonable ! And for the record HAGLER couldnt put away the limity VITO in the first fight and VITO is nowhere near as good as PAV !

Vito had an unbelievable chin

[Toopretty]

How many fights did Lacy have again....what..19--20 or something..

[cross_trainer]

:lol: TOMMY was koed at welter so your point makes no sence ! Regardless of where he bulked up to he was a feeble guy and PAV is a large powerful and durable guy ! !

So what? Hearns was at his best at higher weights than welter (where he was only 23), so it's irrelevant. He was a huge welterweight and a pretty big middleweight.

He also had a larger frame, greater height, more skill, and more accuracy than Pavlik. All of his punches were better, and Pavlik didn't exactly look all that durable last night when he was down against Taylor.


And HAG was busted up by TOMMY if you recall !

Hagler absorbed Hearns' punches (harder and more accurate than Pavlik's) without flinching. You said Hagler would have problems with a tall fighter with a good jab and two fisted power. He walked through Hearns in two rounds, so who is it?

[cross_trainer]

:patsch So who is the LINEAL that VLAD must beat ! I think he is a tad more accomlished at heavy then PAV is at MIDDLE !:bbb

The other three beltholders.

[Fighting Weight]

:good Much more reasonable ! And for the record HAGLER couldnt put away the limited VITO in the first fight and VITO is nowhere near as good as PAV !

Yes but Pavlik almost got KTFO by Taylor, who seems to be universally acknowladged around here as a 'shit' champion. Which looks worse?

[Toopretty]

The way Lacy blasted through 168 just showed how weak the division was. And still is.

[2smart4u]

Vito had an unbelievable chin:smoke YES but his poor power should have given HAGLER the green light to annilate him with the skill these guys are claiming he had ! PAV brings enough power to make HAGLER honest and with his apparent durability and physical attributes would be a very tough fight for anyone including MARVIN !:bbb

[Ambition_Def]

Actually Hearns did hurt Hagler in that first round. But of course Hagler's determination won the day.

[kg0208]

Yes but Pavlik almost got KTFO by Taylor, who seems to be universally acknowladged around here as a 'shit' champion. Which looks worse?

Most here still haven't figured out that they cannot have it both ways. Either Taylor was good, and Pavlik was better OR Taylor was shit and a fraud, and Pavlik has done nothing spectacular or proven anything.

[Fighting Weight]

Hagler absorbed Hearns' punches (harder and more accurate than Pavlik's) without flinching. You said Hagler would have problems with a tall fighter with a good jab and two fisted power. He walked through Hearns in two rounds, so who is it?

Owned. Again :hat

[2smart4u]

Yes but Pavlik almost got KTFO by Taylor, who seems to be universally acknowladged around here as a 'shit' champion. Which looks worse?:patsch He got cought with a hugh shot and still got up quick and survived ! And for the record I never claimed TAYLOR to be a bad champ ! last time I checked he beat one of the ALL TIME GREATS for the title !:yep And PAV distroyed him !

[cross_trainer]

:smoke YES but his poor power should have given HAGLER the green light to annilate him with the skill these guys are claiming he had ! PAV brings enough power to make HAGLER honest and with his apparent durability and physical attributes would be a very tough fight for anyone including MARVIN !:bbb

Mugabi had a better chin and a better punch than Pavlik, and it didn't help him much. Hearns had a better punch, more skill, more size, AND a wider punch variety than Pavlik. It helped him even less. And the reason Hagler didn't KO Vito is that lack of power is NOT the only variable. This is boxing, not rock-em-sock-em robots.

The guys who gave Hagler problems were smaller slickers, not big sluggers. And slick Pavlik is not.

[2smart4u]

Owned. Again :hat:lol: HEARNS certainly didnt punch harder then PAV at middleweight so I just owned both of you for the stupid comparison !:hey

[Fighting Weight]

:patsch He got cought with a hugh shot and still got up quick and survived ! And for the record I never claimed TAYLOR to be a bad champ ! last time I checked he beat one of the ALL TIME GREATS for the title !:yep And PAV distroyed him !

:nut :nut :nut

[kg0208]

:patsch He got cought with a hugh shot and still got up quick and survived ! And for the record I never claimed TAYLOR to be a bad champ ! last time I checked he beat one of the ALL TIME GREATS for the title !:yep And PAV distroyed him !

Whoa whoa....got up quick and recovered? He got up, survived after being wobbly and dazed for another full minute or so. He was seriously hurt by a guy who is not a huge puncher and is an average finisher. That shot was NOT huge. The shot he hit Taylor with was huge.....

[2smart4u]

Mugabi had a better chin and a better punch than Pavlik, and it didn't help him much. Hearns had a better punch, more skill, more size, AND a wider punch variety than Pavlik. It helped him even less.

The guys who gave Hagler problems were smaller slickers, not big sluggers. And slick Pavlik is not.:lol: MUGABI wasa better then PAV was he ! I beg to differ and he gave marv hell ! Spouting names and claiming the fighters are better is rediculous !

[cross_trainer]

:lol: MUGABI wasa better then PAV was he ! I beg to differ and he gave marv hell ! Spouting names and claiming the fighters are better is rediculous !

Umm...I never said he was better. I said he hit harder and had a better chin. Which he did.

Perhaps you should make your comparison a little more sophisticated than just "Pavlik hits harder". It will avoid Mugabi comparisons.

Once again, WHO IS THE FIGHTER WITH A JAB, POWER, HEIGHT, AND TWO FISTED ATTACK WHO GAVE MARVIN TROUBLE?

[2smart4u]

:nut :nut :nut:yep PS the last time I checked MARV couldnt ko the best lightweights and welterweights he faced !

[2smart4u]

Umm...I never said he was better. I said he hit harder and had a better chin. Which he did.

Perhaps you should make your comparison a little more sophisticated than just "Pavlik hits harder". It will avoid Mugabi comparisons.:lol: The last time I checked the BEAST was starched by a couple of guys and PAVLIK hasnt been so what the hell are you talking about ! And for the record PAVws power is being carried over to his a class competition and the BEASTS wasnt ! :hi:

[Fighting Weight]

Taylor apparently can't punch for shit either, seeing as he couldn't KO Spinks.

I do believe this makes Pavlik a glass-jawed bum, by definition.

[cross_trainer]

:yep PS the last time I checked MARV couldnt ko the best lightweights and welterweights he faced !

But he could KO the best middleweights. And since Pavlik is not a welterweight....

And didn't you just get finished saying (incorrectly) that Hearns was nothing more than a frail welterweight?

[Fighting Weight]

:yep PS the last time I checked MARV couldnt ko the best lightweights and welterweights he faced !

As I said, Taylor couldn't put a dent in Spinks or Wright, yet had Pavlik on Queer St for at least 60 seconds and on the verge of being stopped (a lot of referees would have stopped the fight in fact)

Therefore Pavlik must be a bum, right?

[2smart4u]

Umm...I never said he was better. I said he hit harder and had a better chin. Which he did.

Perhaps you should make your comparison a little more sophisticated than just "Pavlik hits harder". It will avoid Mugabi comparisons.

Once again, WHO IS THE FIGHTER WITH A JAB, POWER, HEIGHT, AND TWO FISTED ATTACK WHO GAVE MARVIN TROUBLE?:lol: TOMMY was palstering him before the weak chin came into play ! Remember ! and the last time I checked MARV had a hard time with the jabs of SUGAR and that lightweight guy ! So you can certainly suggest he had a hard time with large guys with a good jab and plenty of power ! Which by the way most guys would ! just like PAV would find it hard to overcome MARVINS southpaw stance skill and durability ! :deal It works both ways here and would be hard fight to predict !

[Rollo]

We most probably haven´t seen Pavlik´s prime yet.

[Fighting Weight]

We most probably haven´t seen Pavlik´s prime yet.

We probably won't either, with that defence and chin :yep

[Ambition_Def]

We most probably haven´t seen Pavlik´s prime yet.

Good point. He is still only 25 years old. 5 years from now let's see where he stands.

[2smart4u]

As I said, Taylor couldn't put a dent in Spinks or Wright, yet had Pavlik on Queer St for at least 60 seconds and on the verge of being stopped (a lot of referees would have stopped the fight in fact)

Therefore Pavlik must be a bum, right?:lol: he got up right away and survived without much trouble against a big hard punching guy ! And for the record some guys get caught and some guys dont ! Id say LL punched alot harder then RUIZ who could drop HOLY and also alot harder then BOWE who koed him right !:yep

[Mrvooh]

I guess never realized that Lacy never was regarded as an elite fighter and was just fun to watch. I guess you forgot that part. Lacy was the worst of the so called best over here. If Calnobody beat hopkins/ Roy/ winky shit...even tarver at any point in his career. And if he stopped ducking Glen Johnson claiming hand injuries then going on to fight Manfredo. I guess the UK forgot about that. I didnt... Then we would shoot him over more respect. You obviously weren't on here yet a month prior to the Lacy / Calzaghe fight. Lacy was their God...he was gonna KILL Joe...then as SOON as that one first loss comes...he's overrated/ a bum...instead of giving Joe credit, these haters mock their beloved Lacy, and start with the RJJ vs Joe threads...This past, and that past champ vs Joe...just to start their gutless hater threads...same shit happening now with Pavlik...Just say he won, and lets move on, instead of having every fkin past fighter kicking his butt already., when he hasn't even had the chancet to defend, or lose his first title defense fight...haters sicken me...:fire

[Fighting Weight]

:lol: he got up right away and survived without much trouble against a big hard punching guy ! And for the record some guys get caught and some guys dont ! Id say LL punched alot harder then RUIZ who could drop HOLY and also alot harder then BOWE who koed him right !:yep

Survived 'without much trouble'??

Absolute bullshit.

The rest of your post seems to be aimed at countering your own argument so I'll ignore it. Can you 'own' yourself on a forum by the way :huh

Fuck it, if anyone can do it then you can.

[Rollo]

We probably won't either, with that defence and chin :yep

Neither his chin nor his defence have let him down so far.....

[cross_trainer]

:lol: TOMMY was palstering him before the weak chin came into play !

Yeah, for a grand total about half a round. That must have been some weak chin to "come into play" so quickly while Hearns was "plastering" Hagler.


Remember ! and the last time I checked MARV had a hard time with the jabs of SUGAR and that lightweight guy !

Neither of whom fought remotely like Pavlik. Nor were they the tall, two fisted sluggers you mentioned.

Hearns was, and Hagler beat him easily. So who is this tall mystery fighter with power, a great jab, and two fisted power who gave Hagler so much trouble?


So you can certainly suggest he had a hard time with large guys with a good jab and plenty of power ! Which by the way most guys would ! just like PAV would find it hard to overcome MARVINS southpaw stance skill and durability ! :deal It works both ways here and would be hard fight to predict !

But the point is that Hagler fought guys with better power, better chins, and a lot more skill than Pavlik, and he dominated them. Pavlik did not face guys with the skill, experience, durability, and power of Hagler, yet he was still badly hurt by Jermain Taylor.

This isn't a pick 'em until Pavlik can prove himself against the volume of opposition that Hagler did.

[cross_trainer]

We probably won't either, with that defence and chin :yep

His chin isn't bad. It's pretty good, actually, when you factor in his lack of defense. Just not up to Hagler's standards.

[Fighting Weight]

His chin isn't bad. It's pretty good, actually, when you factor in his lack of defense. Just not up to Hagler's standards.

I wasn't being serious.....

Having said that, I'd still like to know how this guy is a boxing god overnight by beating someone that everyone on these boards said was 'shit' :huh :huh :huh

If he'd KO'd Taylor in 2 rounds or something then yeah go a bit overboard, but he nearly got punched into the middle of next week in that 2nd round, ate shots all night and was behind on the cards when he stopped Taylor. Don't get me wrong Taylor ate his fair share of shots too, neither of these guys were THAT impressive, to be honest.

He looks a good fighter to me, I've got no reason to dislike him but some of the shit that gets spouted on here is astounding at times :lol:

[Coast]

My problem is that somehow Hagler has become known as a brawler. Hagler had good boxing skills. Sure he brawled with Hearns. But he was a boxer as well.

I've seen Hagler on YouTube. He looked slow and crude to me. A face first brawler with a ton of heart but very little boxing skill. Plus, his chin is waaayyy overrated because he never fought a real puncher. Just a bunch of other Americans because the best fighters from Eastern Europe were never allowed to get a shot at the title in those bigoted days.

:lol:

Hagler is definitely underrated by some these days, and he could do it all in his prime, just fun to use the same argument that is used against every Hall of Fame white fighter pre 1960 (except Pep who apparently could box, but he was way overrated too).

[Mrvooh]

His chin isn't bad. It's pretty good, actually, when you factor in his lack of defense. Just not up to Hagler's standards. Kelly beats Taylor, and taylor is a bum/overrated. Kelly no sooner wins the title, and he's losing to evrey former middlweight of the past. He hasn't even had his first defense/ or loss defending,,,and he's beaten by past fighters.. He's the new champ...SCREW those past pot bellies now...their time is over, Kellys' may just be starting...leave those past primes be where they are....retired.:patsch

[Koa]

Hagler, by jockstrap weightage

[2smart4u]

Yeah, for a grand total about half a round. That must have been some weak chin to "come into play" so quickly while Hearns was "plastering" Hagler.



Neither of whom fought remotely like Pavlik. Nor were they the tall, two fisted sluggers you mentioned.

Hearns was, and Hagler beat him easily. So who is this tall mystery fighter with power, a great jab, and two fisted power who gave Hagler so much trouble?



But the point is that Hagler fought guys with better power, better chins, and a lot more skill than Pavlik, and he dominated them. Pavlik did not face guys with the skill, experience, durability, and power of Hagler, yet he was still badly hurt by Jermain Taylor.

This isn't a pick 'em until Pavlik can prove himself against the volume of opposition that Hagler did.:patsch So HAGLER fought fighters with better power because YOU SAY SO ! Who were these guys ? HAGLER stuggled with much lesser fighters also so its perfectly rational to think this is a tough fight fort HAGLER ! :deal PS so I quess according to you the people who pick underdogs in current fights based on style are stupid becasue the fighters they picked werent proven ? PAVLIK has proven to me that he would be a nightmare for a guy like HAGLER with his size ans style ! And there is nothing irrational about that !

[2smart4u]

Survived 'without much trouble'??

Absolute bullshit.

The rest of your post seems to be aimed at countering your own argument so I'll ignore it. Can you 'own' yourself on a forum by the way :huh

Fuck it, if anyone can do it then you can.:lol: Okay weight !

[Asterion]

Hagler TKO11 after a tough fight, and also it might be Hagler KO3 Pavlik if Pavlik doesn't take care of his defense.

[KhanB]

Hagler. Cant say which round but whenever Pavlik lands a good punch and tries sticking his tounge out again, he's fcked.

[gregor]

I hope this thread is some kind of a joke. And those who predict Pavlik by KO are simply delusional.

Hagler took the best shots of the best punchers of his era almost without noticing. Pavlik was in trouble already in the 2nd round with Taylor, who is nowhere close to Hearns or Mugabi in terms of punching power.

He is not as skilled as SRL either, so getting a decision over Hagler is also out of question. Actually, I think just going full distance would be quite an achievement for him.

[majorer]

If Hagler would knock out Pavlik in 5 seconds as someone said. The same Hagler would knock out Taylor in 4,5 seconds and Hopkins in 4,2 seconds.
The same Hagler would knock out JOnes in 4,8 seconds and Tarver in 4,75 seconds.
That is my opinion. And I am not afraid to say it like it is.


Seriously how dare anyone post such a question. One thing is he, Pavlik, beat Taylor. I can not endure the thought that someone might argue that he had a chance against a prime Hagler. Dont even question that. You here me. Just dont go there. Dont rock my world. Allright. Good.

[Martini643]

have you ever seen Hagler-Hearns? You know how it ended

[cross_trainer]

:patsch So HAGLER fought fighters with better power because YOU SAY SO ! Who were these guys ?

I already told you, repeatedly. Hearns and Mugabi.

Whereas you haven't asnwered my question at all. Which tall fighter with two fisted power and a good jab troubled Hagler?

HAGLER stuggled with much lesser fighters also so its perfectly rational to think this is a tough fight fort HAGLER ! :deal

No, it isn't. Just because every fighter struggles from time to time, it doesn't mean that all fighters are equal.

Hagler struggled against (and still beat) better fighters than Pavlik, and with more awkward styles than Pavlik. If you said "Pavlik vs. LaMotta" or "Pavlik vs. Zale", I'd see where you're coming from. But Hagler? Come on. Pavlik is tailor made for him.

PS so I quess according to you the people who pick underdogs in current fights based on style are stupid becasue the fighters
they picked werent proven ?

No.

PAVLIK has proven to me that he would be a nightmare for a guy like HAGLER with his size ans style ! And there is nothing irrational about that !

There is if it's not based on any facts. Pavlik did not display anything in his two significant fights against contenders that indicates Hagler would have a hard time with him. He doesn't even have the style to beat Hagler, since Hagler clobbered fighters who were similar to (and better than) Pavlik.

Also remember that underdogs can sometimes win, but they generally lose. Pavlik is a big underdog here.

[paulfv]

I like Pavlik, but Hagler was the man.

Now, Pavlik's height and length would give Hagler some issues, but so was Hearns' height and length going to give Hagler problems.

I like Pavlik, but I have to give Hagler the nod. Could have been a great fight.

[cross_trainer]

Kelly beats Taylor, and taylor is a bum/overrated. Kelly no sooner wins the title, and he's losing to evrey former middlweight of the past. He hasn't even had his first defense/ or loss defending,,,and he's beaten by past fighters.. He's the new champ...SCREW those past pot bellies now...their time is over, Kellys' may just be starting...leave those past primes be where they are....retired.:patsch

Taylor was an extremely good opponent.

Give Pavlik time. He certainly has the potential to prove he belongs among history's top middleweights, and I hope he does. But he's not there yet.

[LennoxGOAT]

Hagler is an ATG, but people are blinded by him. He was not an indestructible force.

[McGrain]

This thread is a sin against humanity.

[cross_trainer]

Hagler is an ATG, but people are blinded by him. He was not an indestructible force.

Sure, Hagler's beatable.

But Pavlik is considerably moreso. And since we can select only one fighter in this fantasy matchup, we should go with the one who will probably win.

[My dinner with Conteh]

* wipes arse on thread*

[My dinner with Conteh]

And HAG was busted up by TOMMY if you recall !


Oh yeah, in that round that was scored 10-9 for Hagler. :D

[Lance_Uppercut]

:smoke Do you really beleive that ? HAGLER couldnt put much lesser fighters away ! And dont compare PAV to HEARNS ! HEARNS could not take a great shot and PAV is the much sturdier guy !

:patsch

[cross_trainer]

Ban 2Smart4U.

Nah, he has a right to his opinions. They're weird, but there's nothing innately offensive about them.

[Mrvooh]

Taylor was an extremely good opponent.

Give Pavlik time. He certainly has the potential to prove he belongs among history's top middleweights, and I hope he does. But he's not there yet. Now that's the best reply yet, instead of saying Hagler kill anyone/everyone..YOU make sense.:good

[2smart4u]

:lol: What a bunch of fucking tools ! So now its insane to think HAGLER would have a hard time with a current champ !:patsch Unfucking beleivable ! And for the record HAGLER did struggle with fighters that wernt as good as PAVLIK !:deal

[cross_trainer]

:lol: What a bunch of fucking tools ! So now its insane to think HAGLER would have a hard time with a current champ !:patsch

No.

Unfucking beleivable ! And for the record HAGLER did struggle with fighters that wernt as good as PAVLIK !:deal

Yeah, and Pavlik almost got knocked out by a fighter who wasn't as good as Hagler. Just because a fighter has trouble once in a while does not mean that Pavlik could beat him...especially since Hagler feasted on guys like Pavlik.

[2smart4u]

I already told you, repeatedly. Hearns and Mugabi.

Whereas you haven't asnwered my question at all. Which tall fighter with two fisted power and a good jab troubled Hagler?



No, it isn't. Just because every fighter struggles from time to time, it doesn't mean that all fighters are equal.

Hagler struggled against (and still beat) better fighters than Pavlik, and with more awkward styles than Pavlik. If you said "Pavlik vs. LaMotta" or "Pavlik vs. Zale", I'd see where you're coming from. But Hagler? Come on. Pavlik is tailor made for him.



No.



There is if it's not based on any facts. Pavlik did not display anything in his two significant fights against contenders that indicates Hagler would have a hard time with him. He doesn't even have the style to beat Hagler, since Hagler clobbered fighters who were similar to (and better than) Pavlik.

Also remember that underdogs can sometimes win, but they generally lose. Pavlik is a big underdog here.:patsch Neither MUGABI or HEARNS were better punchers then PAV and neither were even close to being as durable ! And your trying to claim that having a size and reach advantage over HAGLER when your other skills are quite competent isnt an advantage ! :rasta

[2smart4u]

No.



Yeah, and Pavlik almost got knocked out by a fighter who wasn't as good as Hagler. Just because a fighter has trouble once in a while does not mean that Pavlik could beat him...especially since Hagler feasted on guys like Pavlik.:lol: But I never claimed PAVLIK would beat him ! I clearly said its a hard fight to call and HAGLER also posed a considerable number of advantages over PAV ! Why in hell do you guys always have to claim I said soemthing I didnt ? :patsch :lol: Its a hard fight to call based on the styles ! :deal PS the fighter that almost koed PAV is a better puncher and a bigger guy then MARV ! And for the record ALI almost got koed by FRAZIER and COOPER ! neither FORMEN or LISTON could even stun him however ! Styles ?

[cross_trainer]

:patsch Neither MUGABI or HEARNS were better punchers then PAV and neither were even close to being as durable !

Mugabi was at least as durable as Pavlik.

...And Hearns was definitely a better puncher. No question, really. He was more accurate and produced many more knockouts against contenders. He continued to consistently score knockouts all the way up to cruiserweight.


And your trying to claim that having a size and reach advantage over HAGLER when your other skills are quite competent isnt an advantage ! :rasta

Umm....no. I said he never had trouble with fighters like that. And he didn't.

You were the one who said Hagler had trouble with tall, two-fisted punchers with good jabs. You never said which fighters they were. Who are they?

[Fighting Weight]

You were the one who said Hagler had trouble with tall, two-fisted punchers with good jabs. You never said which fighters they were. Who are they?

It's starting to get amusing now :lol: :lol: :lol:

[cross_trainer]

:lol: But I never claimed PAVLIK would beat him ! I clearly said its a hard fight to call and HAGLER also posed a considerable number of advantages over PAV ! Why in hell do you guys always have to claim I said soemthing I didnt ? :patsch :lol: Its a hard fight to call based on the styles ! :deal

It's not a hard fight to call. On one hand, you have a fighter who beat a wide range of opposition over a long period of time, displaying great skills in the process. One of his opponents fought like an improved version of Pavlik, and Marvin destroyed him. On the other, you have a fighter who's beaten a grand total of two ranked fighters, and nearly got knocked out by one of them.

Pavlik doesn't have the power to hurt Marvin (who faced a variety of huge punchers and was never hurt). He doesn't have the technical skill to box with Marvin, or the chin to take Marvin's best punches. And Marvin beat all of the fighters who were similar to Pavlik rather easily. How does Pavlik win?

PS the fighter that almost koed PAV is a better puncher and a bigger guy then MARV ! And for the record ALI almost got koed by FRAZIER and COOPER ! neither FORMEN or LISTON could even stun him however ! Styles ?

Jermain Taylor is not a harder puncher than Hagler.

[Fighting Weight]

How does Pavlik win?


Because he's taller :rofl

[cross_trainer]

Because he's taller :rofl

Hearns, by contrast, was very short for his height.




Interestingly...

Klitschko beats everyone because he has skill, despite his lack of a chin.

Pavlik beats everyone because he has a chin, despite his lack of skill.


It's very lucky for both of them that they don't have their physical attributes reversed.

[2smart4u]

It's not a hard fight to call. On one hand, you have a fighter who beat a wide range of opposition over a long period of time, displaying great skills in the process. One of his opponents fought like an improved version of Pavlik, and Marvin destroyed him. On the other, you have a fighter who's beaten a grand total of two ranked fighters, and nearly got knocked out by one of them.

Pavlik doesn't have the power to hurt Marvin (who faced a variety of huge punchers and was never hurt). He doesn't have the technical skill to box with Marvin, or the chin to take Marvin's best punches. And Marvin beat all of the fighters who were similar to Pavlik rather easily. How does Pavlik win?



Jermain Taylor is not a harder puncher than Hagler.:lol: So now MARVIn fought a bunch of 6-2 power punchers who had prety good BEARDS ? And for the record LISTON beat plenty of fighters over a long carreer before he fought a novice called ALI who had been dropped by a much lesser puncher then LISTON and so on and so forth ! Your argument is so weak you resort to making false claims on my behalf ! Its pathetic !:hi: The larger powerful fighter would be a handful for MARVIN win or lose and it would be a hard fight to pick ! :bbb

[2smart4u]

Hearns, by contrast, was very short for his height.




Interestingly...

Klitschko beats everyone because he has skill, despite his lack of a chin.

Pavlik beats everyone because he has a chin, despite his lack of skill.


It's very lucky for both of them that they don't have their physical attributes reversed.:lol: Again I never claimed either ! And again its pathetic for you to resort to this bullshit to win your weak argument !:hi:

[2smart4u]

Mugabi was at least as durable as Pavlik.

...And Hearns was definitely a better puncher. No question, really. He was more accurate and produced many more knockouts against contenders. He continued to consistently score knockouts all the way up to cruiserweight.



Umm....no. I said he never had trouble with fighters like that. And he didn't.

You were the one who said Hagler had trouble with tall, two-fisted punchers with good jabs. You never said which fighters they were. Who are they?:lol: Lets turn it on you ! Who were the fighters HAGLER beat like PAVLIK ! thats an easy game to play CROSS ! But this wouldnt be an easy fight to pick ! :deal

[Fighting Weight]

Hearns, by contrast, was very short for his height.




Interestingly...

Klitschko beats everyone because he has skill, despite his lack of a chin.

Pavlik beats everyone because he has a chin, despite his lack of skill.


It's very lucky for both of them that they don't have their physical attributes reversed.

From what I saw last night Pavliks chin is above average, but not in the same league as Marvins. I wonder how Pavlik could win this one...

Ah. Because he's tall. :nut

[2smart4u]

It's starting to get amusing now :lol: :lol: :lol::lol: Its more ammusing arguing with a dipshit like yourself ! CROSSES argument is weak wether he wears the same glases as you or not !:yep

[2smart4u]

From what I saw last night Pavliks chin is above average, but not in the same league as Marvins. I wonder how Pavlik could win this one...

Ah. Because he's tall. :nut:smoke That is one advantage and becasue of that durability and firepower it would make MARVIN very succeptable to alot of damage ! Its hard to immagine how either would win ! its simply a hard fight to call until we know more about PAV ! And thats all Ive been claiming !:hi:

[cross_trainer]

:lol: So now MARVIn fought a bunch of 6-2 power punchers who had prety good BEARDS ?

I didn't say he fought Pavlik clones. I said he fought fighters who were very similar to Pavlik.

Like Hearns. Who was better than Pavlik. Who Marvin outlanded, won rounds against, AND KO'd.


And for the record LISTON beat plenty of fighters over a long carreer before he fought a novice called ALI who had been dropped by a much lesser puncher then LISTON and so on and so forth ! Your argument is so weak you resort to making false claims on my behalf ! Its pathetic !:hi:

What "false claims"?

You clearly stated above that you believe Taylor hits harder than Hagler, and that Hagler had trouble with tall, two-fisted punchers with great left jabs. Where's your evidence?

[Fighting Weight]

:lol: Its more ammusing arguing with a dipshit like yourself ! CROSSES argument is weak wether he wears the same glases as you or not !:yep

Ah the insults are coming now....I feel someone starting to lose :deal

You still haven't named this tall, two fisted fighter with a good jab that gave Hagler trouble, by the way. We're all ears...:hi:

[cross_trainer]

:lol: Lets turn it on you ! Who were the fighters HAGLER beat like PAVLIK ! thats an easy game to play CROSS ! But this wouldnt be an easy fight to pick ! :deal

A very easy game, considering we were discussing it for pages and pages.

Mugabi had a better chin and more power than Pavlik, but he was rather similar in those regards. Hearns had a better everything than Pavlik, and a similar build. He had a weaker chin, but that's about it.

[2smart4u]

I didn't say he fought Pavlik clones. I said he fought fighters who were very similar to Pavlik.

Like Hearns. Who was better than Pavlik. Who Marvin outlanded, won rounds against, AND KO'd.



What "false claims"?

You clearly stated above that you believe Taylor hits harder than Hagler, and that Hagler had trouble with tall, two-fisted punchers with great left jabs. Where's your evidence?:lol: So where is your evidence to the contrary or any of the claims your making !:patsch And HEAERNS was very feeble which totally changes the way this fight woukd go !

[Fallow]

Somebody delete this cunt of a thread right now.

[2smart4u]

A very easy game, considering we were discussing it for pages and pages.

Mugabi had a better chin and more power than Pavlik, but he was rather similar in those regards. Hearns had a better everything than Pavlik, and a similar build. He had a weaker chin, but that's about it.:patsch Again your evidence ! HEARNS was for the tenth time FEEBLE and got beat the first time he was cracked ! Different ball game ! And THE BEAST could never win a big fight ! PAV seems to be just the opposite !

[Fighting Weight]

:patsch Again your evidence ! HEARNS was for the tenth time FEEBLE and got beat the first time he was cracked ! Different ball game !

So getting KO'd by Hagler makes you feeble now does it?

I wonder what that 2nd round proves about Pavlik then :patsch

[2smart4u]

Ah the insults are coming now....I feel someone starting to lose :deal

You still haven't named this tall, two fisted fighter with a good jab that gave Hagler trouble, by the way. We're all ears...:hi::lol: I love this guys arguments ! Hes an all time great and received his invincability card right after retiring !:yep

[2smart4u]

So getting KO'd by Hagler makes you feeble now does it?

I wonder what that 2nd round proves about Pavlik then :patsch:lol: You dont really want to start telling me TOMMY was durable now due you ? :yep

[nervousxtian]

Pavlik TKO3 Jesus.

[Fighting Weight]

:lol: I love this guys arguments ! Hes an all time great and received his invincability card right after retiring !:yep

Still doesn't answer the question though does it?

The more you avoid backing up your bullshit, the bigger the ownage :good

[2smart4u]

Still doesn't answer the question though does it?

The more you avoid backing up your bullshit, the bigger the ownage :good:patsch Wow ! And your argument is backed up by what again ? your looking stupid again WEIGHT ! you should call it a night !:hey PS HAGLER lost to VITO who was a smaller less powerful version of PAV ! ( Oh and before you start I did see the fight and realize MARV should have gotten the nod )

[Fighting Weight]

:lol: You dont really want to start telling me TOMMY was durable now due you ? :yep

Everyone knows Hearns didn't have the best of chins, but some people make out like it was pure glass, which is bullshit.

4 KO or TKO losses in 60+ fights spanning 20+ years at multiple weights? Also 2 of those losses came against Leonard and Hagler.

Hell WALDO has one less KO than that and you think he's as durable as Holyfield :nut :nut :nut

[Fighting Weight]

:patsch Wow ! And your argument is backed up by what again ? your looking stupid again WEIGHT ! you should call it a night !:hey PS HAGLER lost to VITO who was a smaller less powerful version of PAV ! ( Oh and before you start I did see the fight and realize MARV should have gotten the nod )

So basically, you brought up a fight to back your argument up that you admit Hagler won?

Not related to that guy that defended OJ Simpson are you? No? Thought not.

[2smart4u]

Everyone knows Hearns didn't have the best of chins, but some people make out like it was pure glass, which is bullshit.

4 KO or TKO losses in 60+ fights spanning 20+ years at multiple weights? Also 2 of those losses came against Leonard and Hagler.

Hell WALDO has one less KO than that and you think he's as durable as Holyfield :nut :nut :nut:lol: again you sound stupid ! unless of cource you do know the difference between falling from exaustion and going to sleep from average punches !:yep

[2smart4u]

So basically, you brought up a fight to back your argument up that you admit Hagler won?

Not related to that guy that defended OJ Simpson are you? No? Thought not.:lol: he shhould have won the fight but he was in tough against a lesser fighter then PAV ! And thats all Ive been claiming ! It would be a tough fight win or lose !:deal And I dont use misleading stats to try and win an argument ! Hence I made people aware HAGLER was simply in tough and shouldnt have lost dispite what the record says !

[Fighting Weight]

:lol: again you sound stupid ! unless of cource you do know the difference between falling from exaustion and going to sleep from average punches !:yep

OK, I sound stupid, you win :nut

[2smart4u]

OK, I sound stupid, you win :nut:smoke Thanks buddy ! have a good night !:yep

[Toopretty]

:smoke Thanks buddy ! have a good night !:yep


You got annhilated on this thread. Now Hearns is below pavlik...WOW..at middleweight. DO YOU KNOW THE SPEED, BOXING AND PUNCHING ACCURACY DIFFERENCE. ARE YOU ON CRACK. WTF.. And yes as CT said, Hearns has a better everything but chin and recovery ability. Pavlik would get up only to be bludgened by Hagler. Hagler too fast, too much skill, too good of defense and aggression.

[Toopretty]

:patsch Neither MUGABI or HEARNS were better punchers then PAV and neither were even close to being as durable ! And your trying to claim that having a size and reach advantage over HAGLER when your other skills are quite competent isnt an advantage ! :rasta :yikes there is not a fighter..not a fighter..who defines being a good puncher besides hearns who could box and punch. Name one punch that Pavlik throws better. I DARE YOU.

[2smart4u]

You got annhilated on this thread. Now Hearns is below pavlik...WOW..at middleweight. DO YOU KNOW THE SPEED, BOXING AND PUNCHING ACCURACY DIFFERENCE. ARE YOU ON CRACK. WTF.. And yes as CT said, Hearns has a better everything but chin and recovery ability. Pavlik would get up only to be bludgened by Hagler. Hagler too fast, too much skill, too good of defense and aggression.:lol: everytime somebody agrees with one of you clowns he OWNING the other poster ! TOMMY was better then HAGLER at just about everthing also ! He was alot better then BARKLY who just might be a very cheap version of PAV ! get it !

[2smart4u]

:yikes there is not a fighter..not a fighter..who defines being a good puncher besides hearns who could box and punch. Name one punch that Pavlik throws better. I DARE YOU.:lol: What did you say ?

[cross_trainer]

:lol: So where is your evidence to the contrary or any of the claims your making !:patsch

What exactly do you mean? Why would I provide evidence to the contrary of my position? :huh

And HEAERNS was very feeble which totally changes the way this fight woukd go !

Pavlik isn't exactly the second coming of McCall either.

And the point is that Hagler managed to outpunch and outfight Hearns BEFORE he hurt him.

[sandwichsurgeon]

:lol: everytime somebody agrees with one of you clowns he OWNING the other poster ! TOMMY was better then HAGLER at just about everthing also ! He was alot better then BARKLY who just might be a very cheap version of PAV ! get it !

I don't think much of TooPretty but credit where credit is due he was right, Fighting Weight has schooled you throughout the ENTIRE thread.

[cross_trainer]

:patsch Again your evidence ! HEARNS was for the tenth time FEEBLE and got beat the first time he was cracked ! Different ball game ! And THE BEAST could never win a big fight ! PAV seems to be just the opposite !

Hearns--

Purely at middleweight, he destroyed Shuler, Roldan, and a host of lesser lights while taking considerably less of his career at that weight. In other weights, he continued to post knockouts all the way up to cruiserweight. Excellent power at 154 as well, though I suspect you don't care about that.

As for boxing skill vis a vis Pavlik, it's a fairly obvious discrepancy.



Mugabi-- Annihilated Fletcher and Parker (top 10 ranked), and was 24-0 (24) when facing Hagler. Total career record 42-7-1 (39)



Pavlik may have a case for being as powerful a puncher as Mugabi, and perhaps Hearns. But he was not more powerful than either, and definitely did not have Hearns' skill.




But again, who was the fighter with the jab, height, and two fisted power that gave Hagler trouble?

If it wasn't "fragile" Hearns when Hagler blasted him out in two rounds, who was it?

[cross_trainer]

:lol: he shhould have won the fight but he was in tough against a lesser fighter then PAV !

A lesser fighter? You are incorrect.

[cross_trainer]

:lol: everytime somebody agrees with one of you clowns he OWNING the other poster ! TOMMY was better then HAGLER at just about everthing also ! He was alot better then BARKLY who just might be a very cheap version of PAV ! get it !

You have been OWNED.

Ownedly owned with "OWNED" brand sugar on top.

And that's not even getting into how "PWNED" you are as well. Believe me, you don't want to go there.

[cross_trainer]

:lol: What did you say ?

He said, "Name a punch Pavlik throws better than Hearns. I dare you."

[Dekkers]

Prime Haglers' counterpunching, power and chin would be way to much for Pavlik to handle, Marvin would break him down and stop Kelly in the middle rounds.

[cross_trainer]

For those who are interested, here's the Hagler/Hearns fight. This is roughly what Pavlik/Hagler would look like.

ZYHSHd1xfpY

[2smart4u]

What exactly do you mean? Why would I provide evidence to the contrary of my position? :huh



Pavlik isn't exactly the second coming of McCall either.

And the point is that Hagler managed to outpunch and outfight Hearns BEFORE he hurt him.:hi: Siding with stupidity doesnt look to good for you !

[2smart4u]

For those who are interested, here's the Hagler/Hearns fight. This is roughly what Pavlik/Hagler would look like.

ZYHSHd1xfpY:lol: Another display of stupidity !

[2smart4u]

He said, "Name a punch Pavlik throws better than Hearns. I dare you.":smoke He is a heavier puncher with just about everthing ! HEARNS ewas faster but as I already said he was FEEBLE ! :hi:

[2smart4u]

A lesser fighter? You are incorrect.:good Sorry but Im not !

[2smart4u]

You have been OWNED.

Ownedly owned with "OWNED" brand sugar on top.

And that's not even getting into how "PWNED" you are as well. Believe me, you don't want to go there.:D Not on this board ! Unless the blind worship of the heros of your youth is used as some kind of fact ! :hi:

[2smart4u]

What exactly do you mean? Why would I provide evidence to the contrary of my position? :huh



Pavlik isn't exactly the second coming of McCall either.

And the point is that Hagler managed to outpunch and outfight Hearns BEFORE he hurt him.:lol: The fight was almost stopped becasue HEARNS had him busted up ! And if TOMMY had any kind of chin he may have been able to win ! KELLY is a very good fighter and to make the rediculous claims of people being able to beat him easily is a graphic display OF NOT LEARNING FROM PAST MISTAKES and misconceptions ! :p PS wasnt TAYLOR the guy who dethroned an all time great !

[Toopretty]

:good Sorry but Im not !

You said that tommy hearns is a lesser fighter then pavlik who almost got blasted out in 2 rounds by JT. JT never did that to anybody. Anybody of high caliber. You are more than owned. YOU HAVE BEEN OWNED, THROWN AWAY, REUSED, THEN THROWN AWAY AGAIN...THEN RECYCLED, THEN OWNED ONE MORE TIME FOR GOOD MEASURE.

[2smart4u]

You said that tommy hearns is a lesser fighter then pavlik who almost got blasted out in 2 rounds by JT. JT never did that to anybody. Anybody of high caliber. You are more than owned. YOU HAVE BEEN OWNED, THROWN AWAY, REUSED, THEN THROWN AWAY AGAIN...THEN RECYCLED, THEN OWNED ONE MORE TIME FOR GOOD MEASURE.:lol: so what other guys did HAGLER blow away like that ? And for the record PAVLIK got blasted by a much better fighter then BARKLY and came back and starched the guy ( yes the same BARKLY that owned TOMMY ) ! In fact he has starched almost everyone that he has fought right up to the guy who beat HOPS and fought on even terms with pound for pounder WINKY ! get it ! You and the rest are owned !:deal

[Fighting Weight]

:hi: Siding with stupidity doesnt look to good for you !

Yep, well and truly owned now :smoke

[2smart4u]

Yep, well and truly owned now :smoke:lol: Ah yes the guy with the brilliant comebacks !:yep

[Toopretty]

2DUMB2exist I guess you are not noticing the head movement of hagler...the footwork of both fighters..the ridiculously fast pace they are fighting at in which a slo[Only registered and activated users can see links] as dirt fighter like pavlik could not keep up on his best night. The point is...Hagler would get inside on Pavlik and brutalize him... you need jesus..homeboy...you are a one man army on this bitch.

[Fighting Weight]

:smoke He is a heavier puncher with just about everthing ! HEARNS ewas faster but as I already said he was FEEBLE ! :hi:

:huh

[Fighting Weight]

:D Not on this board ! Unless the blind worship of the heros of your youth is used as some kind of fact ! :hi:

Yep, and there goes the "smash glass in case of emergency" post.

You'll be talking about the Status Quo again soon, won't you :nut

[2smart4u]

2DUMB2exist I guess you are not noticing the head movement of hagler...the footwork of both fighters..the ridiculously fast pace they are fighting at in which a slo[Only registered and activated users can see links] as dirt fighter like pavlik could not keep up on his best night. The point is...Hagler would get inside on Pavlik and brutalize him... you need jesus..homeboy...you are a one man army on this bitch.:lol: I noticed HAGLER getting hurt and being very easy to hit ! the same as usual ! And to say HAGLER definitly does this is rediculous ! :deal

[2smart4u]

Yep, and there goes the "smash glass in case of emergency" post.

You'll be talking about the Status Quo again soon, won't you :nut:lol: You live the status quo bud ! the one associated with the ALL TIME GREAT LIST ! :bbbPS PAV just crushed HOPS DADDY ! You know the ALL TIME GREAT HOPS !

[Fighting Weight]

:lol: so what other guys did HAGLER blow away like that ? And for the record PAVLIK got blasted by a much better fighter then BARKLY and came back and starched the guy ( yes the same BARKLY that owned TOMMY ) ! In fact he has starched almost everyone that he has fought right up to the guy who beat HOPS and fought on even terms with pound for pounder WINKY ! get it ! You and the rest are owned !:deal

Hmmm.....Hagler KO's Hearns and Hagler was lucky because Hearns has a weak chin. Hearns beats the shit out of Barkley who is on the verge of getting stopped and lands a KO punch, and Barkley 'owns' Hearns :nut

Hagler gets criticised for not KO'ing Welterweights by yourself, then you give kudos to Pavlik for getting up off the floor and KO'ing someone who couldn't KO a welterweight.

:nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut

[Fighting Weight]

:lol: You live the status quo bud ! the one associated with the ALL TIME GREAT LIST ! :bbbPS PAV just crushed HOPS DADDY ! You know the ALL TIME GREAT HOPS !

Hops daddy?? 2 close fights with a 40+ years old champion??

Yep, your username is really appropriate.

[2smart4u]

Hmmm.....Hagler KO's Hearns and Hagler was lucky because Hearns has a weak chin. Hearns beats the shit out of Barkley who is on the verge of getting stopped and lands a KO punch, and Barkley 'owns' Hearns :nut

Hagler gets criticised for not KO'ing Welterweights by yourself, then you give kudos to Pavlik for getting up off the floor and KO'ing someone who couldn't KO a welterweight.

:nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut :nut:lol: Sorry but TAYLOR is the guy who dethroned AN ALL TIME GREAT ! And I never claimed HAGLER got lucky or that he would lose to PAVLIK ! I said it would be a different fight then the fight with TOMMY ! And Im sure you know HAGLER needed 15 rounds to beat an OLD LIGHTWEIGHT who wasnt running away ! remember !:yep

[2smart4u]

Hops daddy?? 2 close fights with a 40+ years old champion??

Yep, your username is really appropriate.:lol: he beat the guy who moved up and beat the reigning light heavyweight champ ! thats not to shabby !:hi: Hes HOPS DADDY !

[Jason997]

This is a legit discussion. Kind of. Pavlik would have been a top contender in the Hagler era. But the answer to the question is obvious. The Pavlik that got knocked down in round two wouldn't have been allowed to finish the round if it was Hagler instead of Taylor.

- Jason

[Toopretty]

:lol: he beat the guy who moved up and beat the reigning light heavyweight champ ! thats not to shabby !:hi: Hes HOPS DADDY !

You are one retarded motherfucker..:rofl:rofl:nut:nut He beat JT so he beats bhop...lol....he owns bhop..wow.....just fucking wow....You are a dumb ass canadian bacon bitch.

[2smart4u]

You are one retarded motherfucker..:rofl:rofl:nut:nut He beat JT so he beats bhop...lol....he owns bhop..wow.....just fucking wow....You are a dumb ass canadian bacon bitch.:lol: Your actually to stupid to understand sarcasm ! And it was simply to make fun of the ALL TIME GREAT ARGUMENT that is constantly used here ! :good Is that simple enough for you ?:hi:

[2smart4u]

This is a legit discussion. Kind of. Pavlik would have been a top contender in the Hagler era. But the answer to the question is obvious. The Pavlik that got knocked down in round two wouldn't have been allowed to finish the round if it was Hagler instead of Taylor.

- Jason:patsch well by that standard the guy who needed 15 rounds to win a close decision against an old fat lightweight would neither outbox or ko a guy like PAVLIK ! But we all know this argument doesnt hold water now dont we ! Because by that standard the guy who needed to be saved by the bell against COOPER would never have beaton LISTON or GEORGE ect ect and so on and so forth !:yep

[jbrunner3]

Hagler would dominate and knock out pavlik. Hagler knew how to throw punches correctly, unlike Taylor. Hagler would've landed a LOT.

[Mrvooh]

It's a legitimate thread, given that Pavlik is now the linear champion. A bit like "Jermain Taylor vs. Hagler" or "Rocky Graziano vs. Hagler".

This would end in roughly the same way as a fight against Graziano would--short and nasty, with Hagler walking through Pavlik's punches and forcing him to trade to his disadvantage.

Hagler by KO within the first five rounds. Is Pavlik at his prime? Or can he become better??
If so, then make your call

[Rumsfeld]

This is a helluva debate! :smoke

[He Hate Me]

Pavlik had a great win but i think the express needs to toned down just a little, lets first see how he defends the belt and maybe we can start with these legenday hypatheticals.

[Marnoff]

I just have to feel that if Pavlik can get rocked like he did in the second round by Taylor, he will do even worse trying to stand and trade with Hagler, who was simply better than Taylor.

[cross_trainer]

:hi: Siding with stupidity doesnt look to good for you !

So your response to all of my reasoning is a simple, "You're stooopid"? :lol:

[cross_trainer]

:lol: The fight was almost stopped becasue HEARNS had him busted up !

Now you're just making things stuff up. Tommy was in no shape or form anywhere close to stopping Hagler. There was a freak cut that Hagler ignored, and that's it.


And if TOMMY had any kind of chin he may have been able to win !

It's difficult to win when you're getting repeatedly battered by Hagler. Marvin was the aggressor throughout the fight, completely ignored Hearns' power, and simply outfought him.

Hagler was beating Hearns before Hearns' chin gave out on him.


KELLY is a very good fighter and to make the rediculous claims of people being able to beat him easily is a graphic display OF NOT LEARNING FROM PAST MISTAKES and misconceptions ! :p

Learning from the past....

You mean the past in which Hagler easily beat guys like Pavlik, and proved himself against everything Pavlik would be able to throw at him?

Or the past that you imagined, where Hagler is beaten up by tall mystery boxers and nearly stopped by Hearns?


PS wasnt TAYLOR the guy who dethroned an all time great !

By that reasoning, Pavlik beat every middleweight champion who came before him, since everyone was dethroned by someone else and Pavlik beat the last guy in the chain.

Problem is, Taylor is not an ATG himself.

[Boinko]

Pavlik has been impressive in his last two fights, but Hagler would rape him bad.
As hard as Kelly punches, he's not cracking that rock hard skull that Hagler had.
Hagler KO4

[dangerousity]

Actually, I can see Kelly Pavlik pulling this off. He would start out employing his superior boxing skills, bobbing n weaving, sticking n moving, throwing Hagler all types of fits. This would go on with Pavlik virtually untouched for the better part of 8 rounds before he decides to show his true pedigree and change the Marvelous one to the Miserable one with one crushing overhand right that lands with a thud across Hagler's temple sending him sprawling to the canvas, dazed, rendering him unable to beat the 10 count. Pavlik KO8 Hagler.


P.S. Sorry for the super extreme run-on sentence.

Pavlik, superior boxing skills to Hagler???

Anyway you slice this, Hagler is a stylistic matchup for Pavlik. Hagler can outbox and outbrawl the guy. Hagler also has the perfect antidote to Pavliks power and enough power to send Pavlik away. Had that been Hagler huting Pavlik on the second round, he would have finished him and if Taylor can do it, Hagler certainly can.

KO inside 6 - Marvelous.

[cross_trainer]

:lol: so what other guys did HAGLER blow away like that ?

At this point, I need only refer you to your own favorite way of rating fighters:

Jermain Taylor's win by KO percentage -- 63%

Marvin Hagler's win by KO percentage -- 84%

Wladimir Klitschko's win by KO percentage -- 89%


No doubt Taylor hits harder than Hagler, considering that Hagler fought better opponents and stopped more of them. :lol:

Going by the numbers, Hagler has almost as good a stoppage record as Pavlik's 91%.


And for the record PAVLIK got blasted by a much better fighter then BARKLY and came back and starched the guy ( yes the same BARKLY that owned TOMMY ) ! In fact he has starched almost everyone that he has fought right up to the guy who beat HOPS and fought on even terms with pound for pounder WINKY ! get it ! You and the rest are owned !:deal

"Starched almost everyone he has fought"...A grand total of TWO ranked fighters.

Somehow, it seems less impressive when you give the details.

[2smart4u]

At this point, I need only refer you to your own favorite way of rating fighters:

Jermain Taylor's win by KO percentage -- 63%

Marvin Hagler's win by KO percentage -- 84%

Wladimir Klitschko's win by KO percentage -- 89%


No doubt Taylor hits harder than Hagler, considering that Hagler fought better opponents and stopped more of them. :lol:

Going by the numbers, Hagler has almost as good a stoppage record as Pavlik's 91%.



"Starched almost everyone he has fought"...A grand total of TWO ranked fighters.

Somehow, it seems less impressive when you give the details.:lol: Sorry CROSS but your details are simply clouded by time and groosly embellished ! as for the rest ! Isnt it you who claims SONNY hit just as hard as VLAD dispite the ko percentages ! A tad hypacriticle dont you think ! And for the record the only 2 fighters are 2 of the top five fighters in the world at that weight that PAV has koed ! Oh and by the way I never claimed PAV wins this ! Im simply claiming that dismissing his chances the way you guys are is rediculous and he appears to have the style and intangables to make a very hard night for MARV ! :deal

[cross_trainer]

Fulgencio Obelmejias also fits the general Pavlik description--a tall, rangy puncher. Again, clobbered by Hagler.

[cross_trainer]

:lol: Sorry CROSS but your details are simply clouded by time and groosly embellished ! as for the rest ! Isnt it you who claims SONNY hit just as hard as VLAD dispite the ko percentages !

You're the one who claims Wlad hits harder than Liston BECAUSE of the KO percentages.

Yet Taylor, who has never knocked out a top opponent and has a 63% KO percentage, hits harder than Hagler, who KO'd multiple rated fighters and had an 84% KO percentage?

A tad hypacriticle dont you think ! And for the record the only 2 fighters are 2 of the top five fighters in the world at that weight that PAV has koed ! Oh and by the way I never claimed PAV wins this ! Im simply claiming that dismissing his chances the way you guys are is rediculous and he appears to have the style and intangables to make a very hard night for MARV ! :deal

You've said repeatedly he has the style and intangibles to beat Hagler.

Yet every time you've been asked *****WHICH TALL TWO-FISTED PUNCHERS WITH GOOD JABS GAVE HAGLER TROUBLE*****

you've never answered.

[2smart4u]

Now you're just making things stuff up. Tommy was in no shape or form anywhere close to stopping Hagler. There was a freak cut that Hagler ignored, and that's it.



It's difficult to win when you're getting repeatedly battered by Hagler. Marvin was the aggressor throughout the fight, completely ignored Hearns' power, and simply outfought him.

Hagler was beating Hearns before Hearns' chin gave out on him.



Learning from the past....

You mean the past in which Hagler easily beat guys like Pavlik, and proved himself against everything Pavlik would be able to throw at him?

Or the past that you imagined, where Hagler is beaten up by tall mystery boxers and nearly stopped by Hearns?



By that reasoning, Pavlik beat every middleweight champion who came before him, since everyone was dethroned by someone else and Pavlik beat the last guy in the chain.

Problem is, Taylor is not an ATG himself.:lol: Oh my ! Your even starting to use my sarcastic remarks against me ! Oh and have you by chance seen PAV beat by shortish pressure fighters like MARV ? HAGLER was cut very bad and the fight was almost stopped ! ( thats called being busted up ) HEARNS was a feble ex welterweight and was nothing like PAVLIK ! now again who were the fighters MARV walked tyhrough like PAV ? use HEARNS again and Ill start stating all the short guys PAV has koed and claim they are like MARV ! :deal

[rydersonthestorm]

This is beyond a joke people will try and claim anything after one win, if pavlik goes on to beat hopkins,calzaghe,kessler and winky then maybe we can talk about hi beating a prime hagler until then stop smoking crack.

[Rumsfeld]

This is beyond a joke people will try and claim anything after one win, if pavlik goes on to beat hopkins,calzaghe,kessler and winky then maybe we can talk about hi beating a prime hagler until then stop smoking crack. It's a perfectly legitimate topic of discussion. Incidentally, I have not even stated my own opinion quite yet. :smoke

[2smart4u]

You're the one who claims Wlad hits harder than Liston BECAUSE of the KO percentages.

Yet Taylor, who has never knocked out a top opponent and has a 63% KO percentage, hits harder than Hagler, who KO'd multiple rated fighters and had an 84% KO percentage?



You've said repeatedly he has the style and intangibles to beat Hagler.

Yet every time you've been asked *****WHICH TALL TWO-FISTED PUNCHERS WITH GOOD JABS GAVE HAGLER TROUBLE*****

you've never answered.:lol: yres I did claim VLAD hit harder then LISTON but the percentages was only one factor ! Remember ! you claimed SONNY hit as hard dispite this but make a case for MARV becasue of this ! get it ? And for the record guys who are larger then you ith real good jabs plenty of power and resilence will trouble anyone ! Even MARV ! now for the record PAV has had no trouble what soever beating the short fighters he has faced so do you think thats means he has no trouble with MARV ? I think not and the hearns fight is in no way an indication of a fight with the larger sturdier PAV ! :deal

[rydersonthestorm]

Who has pavlik beaten to be compared in anyway to hagler, jt and miranda are not all time great fighters so come on name the top fighter's pavlik has destoyed.

[cross_trainer]

:lol: Oh my ! Your even starting to use my sarcastic remarks against me ! Oh and have you by chance seen PAV beat by shortish pressure fighters like MARV ?

Considering he hasn't fought any....no.

But I did see him flattened by a mediocre guy with a 63% KO record who couldn't knock out former welterweights. Does that count?


HAGLER was cut very bad and the fight was almost stopped ! ( thats called being busted up )

He wasn't cut that badly, considering he brutalized Hearns when this supposedly brutal cut was bleeding all over him.

Aside from the cut, Hearns did no damage to Hagler's granite chin. That's called "not being busted up". :good


HEARNS was a feble ex welterweight and was nothing like PAVLIK !

You're right. He was more skilled, more accurate, faster, had a wider variety of punches, and a bigger build.

He hit as hard as Pavlik as well.


now again who were the fighters MARV walked tyhrough like PAV ?

HEARNS, Obelmejias, Mugabi...


use HEARNS again and Ill start stating all the short guys PAV has koed and claim they are like MARV ! :deal

:lol:

What terrible logic. They're not like Marv, so it's irrelevant.

[cross_trainer]

:lol: yres I did claim VLAD hit harder then LISTON but the percentages was only one factor ! Remember ! you claimed SONNY hit as hard dispite this but make a case for MARV becasue of this ! get it ?

Hey, I'm just using YOUR methods.

If you don't like them, perhaps you should revise your approach...?


And for the record guys who are larger then you ith real good jabs plenty of power and resilence will trouble anyone ! Even MARV !

Really? WHEN DID HE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THIS TYPE OF FIGHTER?


now for the record PAV has had no trouble what soever beating the short fighters he has faced

Except they weren't any good....

so do you think thats means he has no trouble with MARV ?

Silly 2smart4u.

Being Marvin's height isn't a "style". :lol:


I think not and the hearns fight is in no way an indication of a fight with the larger sturdier PAV ! :deal

You described Pavlik as a tall, rangy fighter with a two fisted attack, a good jab, and heavy punches.

BY YOUR OWN CRITERIA Hearns fights like him. And Hagler whipped Hearns from pillar to post.

[EspadaYdaga]

This 2smart4u is the most obtuse cunt.

Can you please explain how this is a hard fight to pick? If Pavlik has a chance, how is he winning the fight? KO or on points? Both are equally laughable, so I look forward to your answer.

[2smart4u]

This 2smart4u is the most obtuse cunt.

Can you please explain how this is a hard fight to pick? If Pavlik has a chance, how is he winning the fight? KO or on points? Both are equally laughable, so I look forward to your answer.:lol: Actually asshole PAV is a very tall durable guy with a big puch and pretty good skill ! I simply claimed it would be a tough fight and didnt pick PAV to win ! Its ptetty hard to pick against a peak MARV so I didnt ! But I also dont think this is the cakewalk that these clowns are cliaming !:hi:

[EspadaYdaga]

You said it's a hard fight to pick. That infers you think Pavlik has a chance of winning surely?

So answer the fucking question.

[cross_trainer]

:lol: Actually asshole PAV is a very tall durable guy with a big puch and pretty good skill ! I simply claimed it would be a tough fight and didnt pick PAV to win ! Its ptetty hard to pick against a peak MARV so I didnt ! But I also dont think this is the cakewalk that these clowns are cliaming !:hi:

When did I say it would be a "cakewalk"?

I said it would be onesided and have a nearly certain outcome, but it's not going to be like picking daisies. This is boxing, not ballet.

[2smart4u]

Hey, I'm just using YOUR methods.

If you don't like them, perhaps you should revise your approach...?



Really? WHEN DID HE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THIS TYPE OF FIGHTER?



Except they weren't any good....



Silly 2smart4u.

Being Marvin's height isn't a "style". :lol:



You described Pavlik as a tall, rangy fighter with a two fisted attack, a good jab, and heavy punches.

BY YOUR OWN CRITERIA Hearns fights like him. And Hagler whipped Hearns from pillar to post.:patsch Must you waste so much time spinning ! MARV has never beat a fighter quite like PAV and vise versa ! MARV was getting hit alot by TOMMY becasue of RANGE ! PAV has the same range POWER with durability ! Get it ! And for the record MARV couldnt ko a fat over the hill LIGHTWEIGHT ! So by your account he has no chance in koing or outboxing PAV ! Its a tough fight to pick from what we know now no matter how hard you spin it ! :hi:

[2smart4u]

When did I say it would be a "cakewalk"?

I said it would be onesided and have a nearly certain outcome, but it's not going to be like picking daisies. This is boxing, not ballet.:lol: One sided with a certain outcome and you call me the bias one who simply claimed its a hard fight to pick ! Like I stated MARV had a prettyt rough time when faced with durable competent guys like VITO who ( dispite what you claim ) didnt have the size or firepower of PAV ! this is a hard fight to pick and far from CERTAIN as you rediculously claim ! :good

[cross_trainer]

:patsch Must you waste so much time spinning ! MARV has never beat a fighter quite like PAV and vise versa !

You mean he never beat a Pavlik clone?

My, what a stunning revelation!


MARV was getting hit alot by TOMMY becasue of RANGE ! PAV has the same range POWER with durability ! Get it !

You're getting angry now.

The ownish ownly ownage must be getting to you.

Marvin was hit heavily for about a round (which didn't hurt him) and then beat Tommy to a pulp. If you think the Hearns fight indicates Pavlik has a chance, think again.

And you are wrong--a lot of the fighting was on the inside, not the outside.


And for the record MARV couldnt ko a fat over the hill LIGHTWEIGHT !

But he could KO just about everyone else.

Pavlik would likely be outboxed by that version of Duran.


So by your account he has no chance in koing or outboxing PAV !

By MY admission? :lol:


Its a tough fight to pick from what we know now no matter how hard you spin it ! :hi:

No, it isn't.

Marvin beat better fighters, knocked out better fighters, and destroyed fighters who fought very closely to the way Pavlik fought. He never showed any hints of having trouble with ANY of the skills that Pavlik brings to the table.

[2smart4u]

You said it's a hard fight to pick. That infers you think Pavlik has a chance of winning surely?

So answer the fucking question.:patsch So he might bust him up and get a desision ! Oh but i FORGOT MARV is an ALL TIME GREAT and could never lose a desision ! ( Dispite the fact he actually did lose desisions when he was active ! Now why dont you tell me why he has no chance when lesser fighters did ?:yep

[BITCH ASS]

Whoa whoa....got up quick and recovered? He got up, survived after being wobbly and dazed for another full minute or so. He was seriously hurt by a guy who is not a huge puncher and is an average finisher. That shot was NOT huge. The shot he hit Taylor with was huge.....

Taylor is the harder puncher.

[cross_trainer]

:lol: One sided with a certain outcome and you call me the bias one who simply claimed its a hard fight to pick !

Yeah, you are biased...because it ISN'T a hard fight to pick! :yikes

Since you believe Pavlik has a chance in a fight that any reasonable person knows he'll lose, you're biased.


Like I stated MARV had a prettyt rough time when faced with durable competent guys like VITO who ( dispite what you claim ) didnt have the size or firepower of PAV !

Except that Pavlik isn't nearly as durable as Vito, nor does he have a remotely similar style. In fact, your analogy is wrong in pretty much every way.

Also, when did I claim Vito hit as hard as Pavlik? I said he was better, which he was. Or does "better" mean "hits harder" to you?

[2smart4u]

You mean he never beat a Pavlik clone?

My, what a stunning revelation!



You're getting angry now.

The ownish ownly ownage must be getting to you.

Marvin was hit heavily for about a round (which didn't hurt him) and then beat Tommy to a pulp. If you think the Hearns fight indicates Pavlik has a chance, think again.

And you are wrong--a lot of the fighting was on the inside, not the outside.



But he could KO just about everyone else.

Pavlik would likely be outboxed by that version of Duran.



By MY admission? :lol:



No, it isn't.

Marvin beat better fighters, knocked out better fighters, and destroyed fighters who fought very closely to the way Pavlik fought. He never showed any hints of having trouble with ANY of the skills that Pavlik brings to the table.:lol: MARV beat much better fighters did he ? Its funny I didnt see this or the fighters like PAV ( in fact MONZON would kind of been like PAV ) he beat ! Its a hard fight to pick based on what we know ! PAV brings plenty of troubling intangables ! then again the last time I checked most thought PAV had no chance in his last couple of fights !:hey

[EspadaYdaga]

So Kelly Pavlik is going to outbox Marvin Hagler and win on points. Just when I thought I'd heard it all...

[PowerPuncher]

Pavlik is easy to land on and Marvs fast hands would land constantly time and again as Pavliks predictable attacks would not get through Haglers defense.

Maybe Hagler would knock out Pavlik early. I mean if Taylor could put Pavlik down the faster harder hitting, fitter Hagler, then the harder hitting Hagler could maybe go one better and finnish Pavlik early

Who knows maybe Pavlik would be really tough and take Hagler the distance losing a wide decision.

[cpnasty]

Pavlik is not in his prme yet

[2smart4u]

Yeah, you are biased...because it ISN'T a hard fight to pick! :yikes

Since you believe Pavlik has a chance in a fight that any reasonable person knows he'll lose, you're biased.



Except that Pavlik isn't nearly as durable as Vito, nor does he have a remotely similar style. In fact, your analogy is wrong in pretty much every way.

Also, when did I claim Vito hit as hard as Pavlik? I said he was better, which he was. Or does "better" mean "hits harder" to you?:lol: VITO is is no way better then PAV ! save that shit for the young guys who dont know any better ! :deal And for the record REASONABLE PEOPLE realize there is no way to KNOW who would win a hypotheticle fight ! :hi:

[cross_trainer]

:patsch So he might bust him up and get a desision ! Oh but i FORGOT MARV is an ALL TIME GREAT and could never lose a desision ! ( Dispite the fact he actually did lose desisions when he was active ! Now why dont you tell me why he has no chance when lesser fighters did ?:yep

Marvin cleaned out the middleweight division, whereas Pavlik beat a mediocre champion and nearly got knocked out in the process. Hagler showed no weaknesses against any of Pavlik's strengths. He's outboxed better fighters than Pavlik, knocked out tougher fighters than Pavlik, and destroyed every fighter who fought like Pavlik.

Pavlik has a "ghost" of a chance here. There's nothing to indicate he will win.

[2smart4u]

So Kelly Pavlik is going to outbox Marvin Hagler and win on points. Just when I thought I'd heard it all...:patsch Are we talking about the same HAGLER that had a hard time with a lightweight and lost to a welterweight and lost to VITO ? Yes I think its possible he could lose a desision ! You peple are lunatics the way you glorify your heros !:bart

[cross_trainer]

:lol: MARV beat much better fighters did he ? Its funny I didnt see this or the fighters like PAV ( in fact MONZON would kind of been like PAV ) he beat !

Monzon is like Pavlik? :rofl

Pavlik beat equal competition to Marvin? :rofl

Fer heaven's sakes, boyo...look at the Ring rankings and count up how many top 10 fighters each guy beat.


Its a hard fight to pick based on what we know ! PAV brings plenty of troubling intangables !

What do "we know" that would lead us to pick Pavlik? Name it.

And when did Marvin have trouble with the intangibles?


then again the last time I checked most thought PAV had no chance in his last couple of fights !:hey

So people underrating Pavlik means he'll beat Hagler? :lol:

[EspadaYdaga]

Why do you keep pointing out the obvious? We know there is no way to know for fucks sake, it's not as if Hagler is going to fight on his zimmerframe (in which case he'd still win.)

However all boxing logic says its a very easy fight to pick, and that is reflected by the number of posters that think this thread is a cunt. You just seem to like being contrary for the sake of it.

[2smart4u]

Marvin cleaned out the middleweight division, whereas Pavlik beat a mediocre champion and nearly got knocked out in the process. Hagler showed no weaknesses against any of Pavlik's strengths. He's outboxed better fighters than Pavlik, knocked out tougher fighters than Pavlik, and destroyed every fighter who fought like Pavlik.

Pavlik has a "ghost" of a chance here. There's nothing to indicate he will win.:lol: And what fighters did he face like PAV ? And so now PAV beat a guy who is mediocur ! the same guy who won the title from the current lighhtheavyweight champ and just fought a draw with pound for pounder WINK ? Your completely dilusional if you think MARV beat lots of guys better then PAVLIK ! th3en again statements like HE WOULD CERTAINLY win when refering to fighters is rediculous in its own right ! :bbb

[Rumsfeld]

First, I'd like to say, only an imbecile would start such a ridiculous thread. That said, Hagler KO3 in a complete and total mismatch. :smoke

[cross_trainer]

:patsch Are we talking about the same HAGLER that had a hard time with a lightweight and lost to a welterweight and lost to VITO ?

I don't know what Marvin you're talking about, since he didn't lose to Vito (it was a draw) and beat Duran.


Yes I think its possible he could lose a desision ! You peple are lunatics the way you glorify your heros !:bart

Is this the same Pavlik who was almost knocked out mediocre champion and only fought two ranked opponents in his entire career? Or is this an imaginary Pavlik to go with the imaginary Marvin you created above?

[2smart4u]

Why do you keep pointing out the obvious? We know there is no way to know for fucks sake, it's not as if Hagler is going to fight on his zimmerframe (in which case he'd still win.)

However all boxing logic says its a very easy fight to pick, and that is reflected by the number of posters that think this thread is a cunt. You just seem to like being contrary for the sake of it.:lol: Actully dipshit I have an opinion that I am being critisized for and all common sence doesnt point to MARV destroying this guy and I already gave reasons why ! Why have a debate if according to YOU GUYS its a forgone conclusion ! CHAPS get dthroned by underdogs all the time ! are the people who picked the underdogs stupid ?:hi:

[PowerPuncher]

First, I'd like to say, only an imbecile would start such a ridiculous thread. That said, Hagler KO3 in a complete and total mismatch. :smoke

Who knows maybe if Pavlik got on his chest and worked Hagler back it could be a hard night like the Briscoe fight. Haglers quality would shine through and he'd win a decision

[2smart4u]

I don't know what Marvin you're talking about, since he didn't lose to Vito (it was a draw) and beat Duran.



Is this the same Pavlik who was almost knocked out mediocre champion and only fought two ranked opponents in his entire career? Or is this an imaginary Pavlik to go with the imaginary Marvin you created above?:lol: Didnt the same DURAN get starched by HEARNS ? the same DURAN MARV couldnt even hurt ? This sounds like the idiets who claimed LL was going to lose every fight becasue he as dropped by OLIVER and ROCK ! But quess what he didnt ! And I know it was a draw he actually should have won ! Im simply pointing out he had a tough fight against a guy I dont think is as good as PAVLIK ! Anyway we simply disagree on this !:rasta

[cross_trainer]

:lol: And what fighters did he face like PAV ?

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

I answered that THREE TIMES!


HEARNS
MUGABI
OBELMEJIAS


And so now PAV beat a guy who is mediocur !

Yeah. That's the word on the street.

the same guy who won the title from the current lighhtheavyweight champ and just fought a draw with pound for pounder WINK ?

The same guy who went life or death with former welterweights...?

The guy who almost lost to Hopkins twice...?


Your completely dilusional if you think MARV beat lots of guys better then PAVLIK ! th3en again statements like HE WOULD CERTAINLY win when refering to fighters is rediculous in its own right ! :bbb

Yeah, because we all know it's ridiculous to pick a proven fighter who cleaned out the middleweight division and has no stylistic weaknesses against a novice with two wins over top fighters. :lol:

[cross_trainer]

CHAPS get dthroned by underdogs all the time ! are the people who picked the underdogs stupid ?:hi:

Underdogs are underdogs because they aren't expected to win, and usually don't.

That sums up Pavlik's position here.

[BITCH ASS]

Ban 2Smart4U.

He makes some valid points. Not everything is one-sided.

Who did you pick to win the Berto-Estrada, Taylor-Pavlik fights again?

[cross_trainer]

:lol: Didnt the same DURAN get starched by HEARNS ? the same DURAN MARV couldnt even hurt ?

So you just proved ONCE AGAIN that Hearns had great power.

Good job. :good


This sounds like the idiets who claimed LL was going to lose every fight becasue he as dropped by OLIVER and ROCK !

Actually, you're the one who's using that kind of logic. Every time you want a fighter to win, you'll pick out his one strength and keep repeating it. Every time you want a fighter to lose, you'll focus on his one weakness and keep repeating it.

It's what you do with Wlad vs. Ali, and it's what you're doing with Pavlik vs. Hagler. The problem is that Pavlik's weaknesses and Hagler's strengths are so imbalanced in this fight that you're looking absurd.

But quess what he didnt ! And I know it was a draw he actually should have won ! Im simply pointing out he had a tough fight against a guy I dont think is as good as PAVLIK ! Anyway we simply disagree on this !:rasta

So "a draw he should have won" = a loss? :huh

[cross_trainer]

He makes some valid points. Not everything is one-sided.

Who did you pick to win the Berto-Estrada, Taylor-Pavlik fights again?

Fair enough, and I see where you're coming from. But isn't the entire point of a fight prediction to pick the most likely outcome, rather than the fluke that might happen once in a while?

[EspadaYdaga]

That's because you don't have any common sense.

Let's deal in facts. We are talking about a guy that beat Mugabi, Hearns, Duran, Obelmejias and countless other ranked fighters and lost a very controversial decision to SRR. (For your information, he didn't lose to Vito he drew and won comfortably in the rematch but don't let facts get in the way..)

You keep bringing up the same point of how Hagler really struggled against a lightweight and a welter. Even if that was true, if you fight 67 times chances are you are going to have the occasional off night. Put it into perspective, it hardly takes away from his legacy.

On the other hand we have a guy that has fought one decent fighter (2 at a push) and was knocked senseless in round 2. Let's not forget he was also down on the cards, and was being outboxed for the most part. Most on here seem to agree. It's pretty obvious to most on here his skills are ordinary to good, and his defence is woeful. His trump card is his power and spirit.

If you genuinely think Pavlik has a chance all power to you, but its hardly suprising you are met with such vocal opposition.

[2smart4u]

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

I answered that THREE TIMES!


HEARNS
MUGABI
OBELMEJIAS



Yeah. That's the word on the street.



The same guy who went life or death with former welterweights...?

The guy who almost lost to Hopkins twice...?



Yeah, because we all know it's ridiculous to pick a proven fighter who cleaned out the middleweight division and has no stylistic weaknesses against a novice with two wins over top fighters. :lol::patsch Non of those guys are remotly like PAVLIK man ! so do I pull out every five foot eight guy and claim he is like HAGLER and PAV crushed them ? MARVIN almost lost to an OLD FAT LIGHTWEIGHT and he actually lost his title to a defensive welter so those comparisons can be thrown out the window ! And to sasy HAGLER has no styistic weaknesses against a guy half a foot taller is completly retarded ! :deal As is the claim he would definitly beat him !:nut

[2smart4u]

Fair enough, and I see where you're coming from. But isn't the entire point of a fight prediction to pick the most likely outcome, rather than the fluke that might happen once in a while?:patsch So then whats the point of debating current fighters against old ones ? according to you the old ones are proven and should be given a pass !

[2smart4u]

Underdogs are underdogs because they aren't expected to win, and usually don't.

That sums up Pavlik's position here.:huh but I never claimed he would win ! I claimed it would be a better fight then you guys think it would be ! And for that Im supposedly stupid ! Your twisting the story again man and its rediculous ! :deal

[2smart4u]

That's because you don't have any common sense.

Let's deal in facts. We are talking about a guy that beat Mugabi, Hearns, Duran, Obelmejias and countless other ranked fighters and lost a very controversial decision to SRR. (For your information, he didn't lose to Vito he drew and won comfortably in the rematch but don't let facts get in the way..)

You keep bringing up the same point of how Hagler really struggled against a lightweight and a welter. Even if that was true, if you fight 67 times chances are you are going to have the occasional off night. Put it into perspective, it hardly takes away from his legacy.

On the other hand we have a guy that has fought one decent fighter (2 at a push) and was knocked senseless in round 2. Let's not forget he was also down on the cards, and was being outboxed for the most part. Most on here seem to agree. It's pretty obvious to most on here his skills are ordinary to good, and his defence is woeful. His trump card is his power and spirit.

If you genuinely think Pavlik has a chance all power to you, but its hardly suprising you are met with such vocal opposition.:yep So you dont understand that when facing certain fighters other fighters are more careful and dont get caught with haymakers ? I remeber a guy named ALI who never even got hurt when facing the hardest punhers he ever faced but had to be saved by the bell against a 180 pounder ! PAVLIKS size reach power and durability could very possibly make for a tough fight for the shorter fighter ! And for the record those attributes are styistic advantages ! :tired

[2smart4u]

Fair enough, and I see where you're coming from. But isn't the entire point of a fight prediction to pick the most likely outcome, rather than the fluke that might happen once in a while?:huh Then why debate on a message board ! Isnt this for looking deeper into a subject then the obvious ? We all know MARVIN is the more accomplished fighter but that is not always the desiding factor ! F---k man your starting to get like RADAR !:yep

[2smart4u]

Do you remember Hagler vs Mugabi?How many world class fighters did Mugabi beat in his career up until his fight with Halger?None right yet he gave Hagler hell.Pavlik is far more skilled than Mugabi and since he has knocked out 2 world class fighters back to back then i will say he punches harder than Mugabi as well.Not one time in his career did Hagler looked devastating against another true middleweight.The only fighter i remember Hagler looking good against was the glass chin Tommy Hearns.
But in any case it is still too early to tell how great Pavlik will be and i am not some racial biased white guy jumping on Pavliks balls i a am a black man who has been a fan of Kelly Pavlik's for about 3 or 4 years now.:good Thanks for the rational ! Exellent post ! PS I certainly hope people are playing the fucking race game here !:rofl

[KhanB]

Beating Taylor doesnt automatically prove you have the skills of Mugabi or Hearns. Both those guys looked quicker to me and had better boxing skills when Hagler to beat them.