How did this fight affect your opinion of Taylor?

[MrStayman]

How did this fight change your opinion of Taylor?

[El Bombasto]

My opinion is unchanged. I still think Taylor is an outstanding boxer.

[MrStayman]

I made this a poll, but I guess I just don't know how to make one correctly. Anyways, for me, he went from an overrated hype job who only cares about money to a guy who has been disrespected for stupid reasons. I bought into the anti Taylorism big time, and am ashamed to have done so.

[Boom_Boom]

Still a fan, not quite the result i was hoping for
(Pavlik winning but with JT getting the respect he is owed)

[Ambition_Def]

Same opinion. Big strong (now super middle) with overrated boxing skills. Just because he had Manny in his corner I think people fashioned him as some superior boxer that he never was.

He has alot of heart which is what got him through the Hopkins fights, but in the end he's gonna lose to the bigger guys who can dent his chin. Even at 168 I see most of the top guys at comparable speed and skill, but more power in general.

[Dorfmeister]

My opinion is unchanged. I still think Taylor is an outstanding boxer.

I second that and would add that with Pat Burns, he did more to get away from the danger zone. Built some kinda blindfolded elitism after the Hopkins wins and the Kronck Gym label.

[MrStayman]

Same opinion. Big strong (now super middle) with overrated boxing skills. Just because he had Manny in his corner I think people fashioned him as some superior boxer that he never was.

He has alot of heart which is what got him through the Hopkins fights, but in the end he's gonna lose to the bigger guys who can dent his chin. Even at 168 I see most of the top guys at comparable speed and skill, but more power in general.
I have a question for people who post these "overrated" comments. Is he overrated because he is perceived to be an all time great, or is he overrated because he is just an average fighter who is (was) perceived to be a current pound for pound?

[compukiller]

He confirmed my opinion that he is massively overrated and is not yet at a true championship level of boxing.

[Ambition_Def]

I have a question for people who post these "overrated" comments. Is he overrated because he is perceived to be an all time great, or is he overrated because he is just an average fighter who is perceived to be a current pound for pound?

I don't think his p4p status is overrated personally. I think he won those fights with Hopkins on heart, and that holds merit.

What I mean by overrated is that alot of the people who figured Taylor would win figured he was the superior boxer with superior handspeed and defense. That clearly was overrated to me. Alot of people wrote off the fact that Hopkins hit him at will and said "hey thats Hopkins!" rather than really seeing the truth that Taylor was easy to hit.

[compukiller]

I have a question for people who post these "overrated" comments. Is he overrated because he is perceived to be an all time great, or is he overrated because he is just an average fighter who is (was) perceived to be a current pound for pound?

The 2nd one.

[peter5]

I still think he has problems in his game, but he was looking solid until that round 7!

[Dorfmeister]

I have a question for people who post these "overrated" comments. Is he overrated because he is perceived to be an all time great, or is he overrated because he is just an average fighter who is perceived to be a current pound for pound?

He is not overrated, actually he was systematically underrated by the Ring Mag... Ambition_Def's comment is clear sighted and mentioned overrated skills and Manny Steward - Kronck Gym quality label... When you suggest in interrogative mode that he is perceived as ATG, you are overrating him as much as others underrated him, JT was a Top 10 P4P and that is in the past tense, this loss cannot be ignored...

[Alo2006]

Only an idiot would say JT is overrated. He still has improvement to make, but a lot of fighters have that to make too. Pavlik showed heart and power, but he's going to have to make some improvements as well if he wants to hold on to them belts. JT has fought top fighter 5 times in a row, give him a break. Losing might be what he needed to get to that next level. Only time will tell.

[compukiller]

Only an idiot would say JT is overrated. He still has improvement to make, but a lot of fighters have that to make too. Pavlik showed heart and power, but he's going to have to make some improvements as well if he wants to hold on to them belts. JT has fought top fighter 5 times in a row, give him a break. Losing might be what he needed to get to that next level. Only time will tell.

JT's had a few too many breaks already. :bart

[MrStayman]

The 2nd one.

I'm starting to understand this argument now. I think the general claim is that the American middleweight scene has been average since Taylor took the belt from BHop. BHop was 40 years old at the time, so his loss was presumably due to age, and it was a transition to the current era, in which the middleweight division is watered down and weak. Evidence in this lies in Taylor's poor performances against "junior middleweights and feather fisted welterweights." Pavlik, although a step above Taylor, is also average, or just slightly above.

Is this the general idea that Euros have been constantly stating?

[Ambition_Def]

Taylor was the superior boxer with superior handspeed against Pavlik. Pavlik was the superior fighter though.

My oppinion of Taylor increased a bit. I still think he´s not a special fighter but he´s a very good fighter who would give anybody from 160-168 a good fight.

If he were so superior with handspeed and technique those punch stats wouldn't have been so close.

The idea that he was better technically spawned completely out of that relationship with Kronk gym. There was no real truth to that. And he has never put on a performance to give that indication anyhow.

[Ambition_Def]

I'm starting to understand this argument now. I think the general claim is that the American middleweight scene has been average since Taylor took the belt from BHop. BHop was 40 years old at the time, so his loss was presumably due to age, and it was a transition to the current era, in which the middleweight division is watered down and weak. Evidence in this lies in Taylor's poor performances against "junior middleweights and feather fisted welterweights." Pavlik, although a step above Taylor, is also average, or just slightly above.

Is this the general idea that Euros have been constantly stating?

Exactly, yes.

[Jose FM]

Taylor was the superior boxer with superior handspeed against Pavlik. Pavlik was the superior fighter though.

My oppinion of Taylor increased a bit. I still think he´s not a special fighter but he´s a very good fighter who would give anybody from 160-168 a good fight.
:nono
Pavlik was definately the better boxer, outjabbed him, and set up that montrous right hand that had Taylor out on his feet.

[Club Fighter]

How did this fight change your opinion of Taylor?

It didn't. It just reaffirmed the opinion I already held and that is that Taylor's an idiot!

[MrStayman]

Exactly, yes.
The problem I have with this is that I think that "average" is too harsh a term, designed to troll and annoy American fans. Tonight, neither Taylor nor Pavlik were average fighters.

The Euro argument would be more believable and less childish if they would just call these fighters "great, but not elite" instead. No matter how you cut it, an average fighter does not unify the middleweight belts. Also, an average fighter does not win the middleweight title against the undisputed champion while improving his KO rate to 90.6%.

[lefthook31]

I think Taylor needs to get some more experience in the gym with high intensity sparring for a lot of rounds. It was funny how Manny was telling him you have him fighting at a pace hes not used to, but reallly it was the opposite. Taylor wasnt prepared to fight the type of fight he needed to wear out Pavlik. To me Pavlik is a larger version of Diego Corrales. Easy to hit, but super tough. Taylor is maybe not as good as I thought, because he wasnt able to sustain any type of pace, and thats part of being a great fighter.

[cross_trainer]

How did this fight change your opinion of Taylor?

Before this fight, I believed Taylor would beat Pavlik.

Now, I have changed my opinion.

[Chinchecker71]

Taylor is a great boxer who's still young and learning. I think he learned yesterday that boxing is a "offensive" as well as "defensive" sport. When you get knocked out because of an accumulation of blows it means your defense is leaky.

Look at Jermain's body versus Pavlik's. Pavlik is wiry and in the fights I've seen he doesn't tire to a point where he's really sloppy. Jermain is thicker and tends to empty his tank and require time to gas up.

I think he should take a fight in between the rematch. He needs to fight someone else.

[Zakman]

My opinion was confirmed - Taylor is an overrated HBO hype job with a questionable chin, who got decisions he didn't deserve and kept the title too long because of the power of HBO.

The HBO suits were trying to set up another gift for Taylor, but Pavlik spoiled their plans. Sorry HBO, but ya can't get a gift decision while yer lying on the canvas!! :lol:

[brooklyn1550]

Very athletic fighter with sound skills, but nothing great. I'd say he's as good now as he's ever going to get. To his credit, he showed real toughness and heart.

[brooklyn1550]

And he burns in the sun a lot faster as well.

He might burn in the sun faster, but he would do so with the WBC and WBO middleweight titles.

[cross_trainer]

My opinion was confirmed - Taylor is an overrated HBO hype job with a questionable chin, who got decisions he didn't deserve and kept the title too long because of the power of HBO.

The HBO suits were trying to set up another gift for Taylor, but Pavlik spoiled their plans. Sorry HBO, but ya can't get a gift decision while yer lying on the canvas!! :lol:

Actually, the fight contradicted several of your opinions. Taylor nearly beat the guy who is now #1 in the middleweight division. He almost had him out in the second round, and continued to fight well until the end. He was nailed repeatedly without getting flattened until the final knockdown, against a guy with huge punching power.

[pipe wrenched]

Actually, the fight contradicted several of your opinions. Taylor nearly beat the guy who is now #1 in the middleweight division. He almost had him out in the second round, and continued to fight well until the end. He was nailed repeatedly without getting flattened until the final knockdown, against a guy with huge punching power.

:good It was a hell of a fight.

[Mrvooh]

He confirmed my opinion that he is massively overrated and is not yet at a true championship level of boxing.One loss, I guess, changes a champ to overrated? I guess Ali was overrated when Frazier beat him...then Frazier was overrated when Foreman beat him...Liston was overrated when Clay beat him...Foreman was overrated when Ali beat him Louis was overrated when Max beat him, but Max was overrated when Louis got vengence. Patterson was overrated when Ingemar beat him, but Ingemar was overrated when patterson beat him, then Patterson was RE-RE overrated when Liston beat him, who was RE-RE overrated when Clay beat him again..
TONS of overrated champs out there!! ,and it takes only one loss.:rofl

[sandwichsurgeon]

The fight confirmed my suspicions that Hopkins, Taylor and Wright are not as good as they are believed to be, Hopkins has been fighting rarely and sticking to fighting a seniors tour and taylor, Winky seems to be slipping and Taylor looked bad against Spinks and Ouma.

With Winky, Taylor and Hopkins all being on par with each other and Taylor fighting very close fights with B level opposition it sent alarm bells ringing that the ATG's Wink and Hop aren't what they used to be which is why they are on the level of the Hype job Taylor.

I gave them all the benefit of the doubt and resigned myself to make my judgement of their calibre based upon Taylor vs Pavlik, Taylor lost fair and square but Pavlik is obviously limited, keeping Winky, Hop and Taylor in the p4p top 10 while bringing Pavlik in would require me to make more excuses to defend these guys and i'm not buying it anymore.

If Pavlik, Hopkins, Winky and Taylor fight some guys that aren't named Pavlik, Hopkins, Winky and Taylor and put on some stellar performances against good opposition I will change my mind and put them back in my top 10 but i'm not sold on them anymore.

[achillesthegreat]

I always thought he was a good fighter and I still do. I always respected him and I still do. Taylor fights the best of the best. He has ONE bad fight - Spinks!

Taylor proved he has a chin, he proved he has heart, he proved he is a gentleman, he proved he can punch and he should get the respect he wants!

[David UK]

Merely confirmed what I already knew-that Taylor was not very good!!

Furthermore, the result doesn't reflect especially well on Hopkins,Wright(at160) or Tarver!!

[psychopath]

How did this fight change your opinion of Taylor?

Not much.

Nobody could have survived that solid cracking punch. :yep

But all props to Pav for the fighting heart, solid chin and power in both hands. Any lesser fighter could have also crumbled on that second round. He was stunned and hurt but he recovered unexpectedly fast and continue the pressure. Damn unbelievable.

[Koa]

Glad to see it happen, but a little sad at the same time.. Taylor had some bad habits, aspects of his style that I was absolutely furious with.

I think he's got far more raw talent than Pavlik, would like to see him regather himself and actually learn to box. No more of the grabbing garbage. I want to see him move like Tommy Hearns, use that nasty jab and thudding (though sloppy) right hand from the outside and move around like a boxer of his size should.

Oh, and keep his lead up to guard as well so he doesn't get blown away by the next guy with a good one two.

[booklord]

My opinion of Taylor improved greatly. He's definitely got power and speed. After seeing that fight I know think that he had gotten lazy training for the Oama and Spinks fights because that was a much improved Taylor last night.

However he did show me some weaknesses.

First he showed stanima problems in the late rounds of the fight. His power and speed won a few rounds in the beginning but I don't think he was able to maintain the pace needed to keep up with Pavlik's relentless attack.

Second, and this is what really killed him in the 7th round, I don't think Taylor has ever faced an opponent who can outjab him.

[Koa]

My opinion of Taylor improved greatly. He's definitely got power and speed. After seeing that fight I know think that he had gotten lazy training for the Oama and Spinks fights because that was a much improved Taylor last night.

However he did show me some weaknesses.

First he showed stanima problems in the late rounds of the fight. His power and speed won a few rounds in the beginning but I don't think he was able to maintain the pace needed to keep up with Pavlik's relentless attack.

Second, and this is what really killed him in the 7th round, I don't think Taylor has ever faced an opponent who can outjab him.

Taylor throws his jab very heavy and is a little off balance, or it seems like it at the end of his punch, he doens't recover it quickly.. All you have to do is catch his jab and look for a cross behind it, or slip it and counter, his recovery is that slow.. Pavlik has one of those chipping jabs that will bludgeon a face and has enough on it to really set up a cross and combos.. Pavliks jab is very suited to his style and punch output.

Taylors Jab is a great one, just needs to be polished, and he needs to learn to mix up the power of his punches so he can conserve energy and also catch guys off guard. He could be a great fighter, just needs polishing and determination.. He has a ton of natural gifts.

[jazzboy]

Taylor is my Guy. Always has been and will always be. He is a damn good fighter that is not scared to fight anyone. After wathcing him loose last night i was sick. It really fucked up my night and didn't even watch the post fight interview. I got up this morning and felt like like shit then i watched the post fight. He handled it like a man and said that they were going to do it again. The next time i truly belive that he wont get caught by that right hand. Hell to be honest i think this fight was necessary for him to progress as a fighter. This is the fight to show him that all his flaws need to be fixed. That left will not be held low anymore.


This lose does not make hopkins or wright look bad.

[dasbas327]

:happy Taylor was just another HBO created great black hope pulverized by the power of the white fist! Reality hurts!

[Carlos Primera]

:happy Taylor was just another HBO created great black hope pulverized by the power of the white fist! Reality hurts!
pavlik should be charged with a hate crime for that beat down.

[Cruiser1]

I think he is a tremendous talent but he there's something very amateurish about him when he fights. Blast me if u want but this is my opinion. There's almost a puzzlement about him at times.

[Sonny Carson]

:happy Taylor was just another HBO created great black hope pulverized by the power of the white fist! Reality hurts!
Shut your racist ass up.

[Bigcat]

Awesome fighter....

love him, he just never had a defining night to be remembered by, this fight would have been a defining win.. He just got caught.

Anyone can get caught. all credit to Kelly..

A wonderful fight..

[DanePugilist]

This fight didn't change anything at all on how I portray Taylor. I knew he would go down, and he did. Now the rest of the world acknowledges what a few of us did before this match.

Maybe one thing changed a bit for me - when he almost cried in the dressing room, made me think that deep down, he is an okay guy.

[Cruiser1]

This fight didn't change anything at all on how I portray Taylor. I knew he would go down, and he did. Now the rest of the world acknowledges what a few of us did before this match.

Maybe one thing changed a bit for me - when he almost cried in the dressing room, made me think that deep down, he is an okay guy.

The guy was under a lot of fire for a while now so getting KO'd last night certainly didn't help matters. The pre-fight pressure alone would have made alot of people crack. Had he cried during the interview I would have understood. He's a human being.

[rodney]

Taylor is what I thought he was.
A Paper Champion.
It was just a matter of time.
I am glad that it was Kelly Pavlik's time.

[bachatu]

I think he is a tremendous talent but he there's something very amateurish about him when he fights. Blast me if u want but this is my opinion. There's almost a puzzlement about him at times.

I agree to an extent. He has tools but it seems that for some reason, he makes too many mistakes that a fighter with his experience shouldnt be making. THese are mistakes that him and his camp openly talked about working out in the gym and training in the pocanos, etc. So it seems that he is aware of what things he needs to work on but he keeps making those mistakes. Something I did see improve was that he was a little bit more aware of his where abouts in the ring and would get out of the ropes a bit quicker. However, he still made the mistake of letting him get guided to the ropes by Pavlik.

I think that his decisions or instincts in the ring are sometimes off and which ultimately cost him the fight. After getting hit with a huge right hand, you should either take a knee if you are that badly hurt to gain some time, or clinch like crazy and get close, not go back to the ropes.

I think that because he has won his previous bouts by his athletic abilities, hard determination & heart, he has been able to get away with those mistakes, he has developed some really bad habits because of it which he previously did not have to pay for. With this fight & loss on his record, this is a wake up call and reality check that states that he needs to really iron out some of these mistakes & bad habits if he wants to compete at the championship level and fight everyone out there & succeed.--big guys, fast guys, slick guys, etc.

One other thing, I am starting to believe that Manny Steward may not be the best coach for Jermaine. For some reason, I dont know if its Manny or Jermaines strategy, but he needs to stop letting the other get off first. It reminds me of when De La Hoya went to train with Mayweather Sr. He looked, IMO, worse throughout the time with Mayweather SR than with any of his other trainers.
If you look at Taylor in his younger years, he didn't have some of the bad habits he has now, and it appears that his work with Emmanuel isn't working. For some reason, it seems like Emmanuel is not able to bring out the best in Taylor or maybe simply not catch his attention, and there may be another coach better suited for that.

[swankinrosco]

I always thought he was a good fighter and I still do. I always respected him and I still do. Taylor fights the best of the best. He has ONE bad fight - Spinks!

Taylor proved he has a chin, he proved he has heart, he proved he is a gentleman, he proved he can punch and he should get the respect he wants!
he also proved he can't think or adapt in the ring, and that he has one of the worst "champion" guards i've ever seen. he should have slowed the pace down a bit and use his legs during 6 and 7 then picked it up 8, 9, 10, back off 11, and burn it in 12.

oh and he has next to zero lateral movement.

[bachatu]

Yeah thats what i was saying that it seems he lack some of those natural instincs that champions have shown to have in the past.

[Cruiser1]

I agree to an extent. He has tools but it seems that for some reason, he makes too many mistakes that a fighter with his experience shouldnt be making. THese are mistakes that him and his camp openly talked about working out in the gym and training in the pocanos, etc. So it seems that he is aware of what things he needs to work on but he keeps making those mistakes. Something I did see improve was that he was a little bit more aware of his where abouts in the ring and would get out of the ropes a bit quicker. However, he still made the mistake of letting him get guided to the ropes by Pavlik.

I think that his decisions or instincts in the ring are sometimes off and which ultimately cost him the fight. After getting hit with a huge right hand, you should either take a knee if you are that badly hurt to gain some time, or clinch like crazy and get close, not go back to the ropes.

I think that because he has won his previous bouts by his athletic abilities, hard determination & heart, he has been able to get away with those mistakes, he has developed some really bad habits because of it which he previously did not have to pay for. With this fight & loss on his record, this is a wake up call and reality check that states that he needs to really iron out some of these mistakes & bad habits if he wants to compete at the championship level and fight everyone out there & succeed.--big guys, fast guys, slick guys, etc.

One other thing, I am starting to believe that Manny Steward may not be the best coach for Jermaine. For some reason, I dont know if its Manny or Jermaines strategy, but he needs to stop letting the other get off first. It reminds me of when De La Hoya went to train with Mayweather Sr. He looked, IMO, worse throughout the time with Mayweather SR than with any of his other trainers.
If you look at Taylor in his younger years, he didn't have some of the bad habits he has now, and it appears that his work with Emmanuel isn't working. For some reason, it seems like Emmanuel is not able to bring out the best in Taylor or maybe simply not catch his attention, and there may be another coach better suited for that.

You make a good point with the bad habits. The thing is this...when you're able to get by on athleticism for so long you eventually find yourself needing the intangibles that a professional must have and they're just not there. I always felt that Taylor was skating by because of his talent. He didn't have that much of an education prior to Hopkins. He was fed a bunch of stiffs who didn't challenge him. Limited come-forward fighters like Bunema and Edouard and a completely shot William Joppy were of no help to his development. After Hopkins he was gonna be in with a bunch of different styles that demanded more than athleticism. If being an athlete won fights there would be about 100 champions per division.

[DanePugilist]

I agree to an extent. He has tools but it seems that for some reason, he makes too many mistakes that a fighter with his experience shouldnt be making. THese are mistakes that him and his camp openly talked about working out in the gym and training in the pocanos, etc. So it seems that he is aware of what things he needs to work on but he keeps making those mistakes. Something I did see improve was that he was a little bit more aware of his where abouts in the ring and would get out of the ropes a bit quicker. However, he still made the mistake of letting him get guided to the ropes by Pavlik.

I think that his decisions or instincts in the ring are sometimes off and which ultimately cost him the fight. After getting hit with a huge right hand, you should either take a knee if you are that badly hurt to gain some time, or clinch like crazy and get close, not go back to the ropes.

I think that because he has won his previous bouts by his athletic abilities, hard determination & heart, he has been able to get away with those mistakes, he has developed some really bad habits because of it which he previously did not have to pay for. With this fight & loss on his record, this is a wake up call and reality check that states that he needs to really iron out some of these mistakes & bad habits if he wants to compete at the championship level and fight everyone out there & succeed.--big guys, fast guys, slick guys, etc.

One other thing, I am starting to believe that Manny Steward may not be the best coach for Jermaine. For some reason, I dont know if its Manny or Jermaines strategy, but he needs to stop letting the other get off first. It reminds me of when De La Hoya went to train with Mayweather Sr. He looked, IMO, worse throughout the time with Mayweather SR than with any of his other trainers.
If you look at Taylor in his younger years, he didn't have some of the bad habits he has now, and it appears that his work with Emmanuel isn't working. For some reason, it seems like Emmanuel is not able to bring out the best in Taylor or maybe simply not catch his attention, and there may be another coach better suited for that.He is simply not a very clever fighter imho, he has some tools, but doesn't use them very well.

A coach can only advise and try to train with a guy, but if he keeps failing doing what you want him to do, maybe it beyond him to change it. Furthermore, he seems to degress rather than anything else - I seriously think that on top of a limited talent, he has some mentality issues. I even saw it in the prefight show, where he didn't seem to take Pavlik serious.

[Cruiser1]

He is simply not a very clever fighter imho, he has some tools, but doesn't use them very well.

A coach can only advise and try to train with a guy, but if he keeps failing doing what you want him to do, maybe it beyond him to change it. Furthermore, he seems to degress rather than anything else - I seriously think that on top of a limited talent, he has some mentality issues. I even saw it in the prefight show, where he didn't seem to take Pavlik serious.

I think he was trying to talk like an elite fighter who just had a couple bad nights at the office when in fact he knew that he was an elite fighter who was ready for a fall. He talked badly of Pavlik because of insecurity. A guy who knows he's gonna go out and win convincingly doesn't need to bash the opponent. He just goes out and does it.

[Lance_Uppercut]

It didn't at all.