Bowe Over Schmeling?

[Russell]

Pretty simple question.

Can Riddick Bowe be ranked about Max Schmeling at heavyweight?

Why or why not, more details the better.

[anarci]

Yes!!!

[PetethePrince]

He can.

He won a series against Holyfield.

He beat Seldon, Dokes, Coetzer, Tubbs, Thomas, and those caliber level of fighters. He beat Golota, however awful those fights were in terms of Bowe's performances. The only lost he had was against Holyfield. He was a unified champion, and a title holder in a solid heavyweight era.

Schemling was actually more inconsistent. He had a longer spurt, and probably has the better win (Louis), but he lost to Sharkey, Baer, Hamas, and other less notables.

His claim to fame is beating a smaller and somewhat old Mickey Walker, and a possibly green Joe Louis. His next best wins are mostly second rate fighters. He did fight in a harder and tougher time, but his resume isn't really sensational. The Louis win is really his biggest feat. After that it gets a little bit sketchy.

[MRBILL]

FUCK!!!!!!!!!!! Bowe of '92 / '93 KILLS Schmeling of '30 to '33..............

MR.BILL

[PetethePrince]

FUCK!!!!!!!!!!! Bowe of '92 / '93 KILLS Schmeling of '30 to '33..............

MR.BILL

:patsch

[TheGreatA]

He can.

He won a series against Holyfield.

He beat Seldon, Dokes, Coetzer, Tubbs, Thomas, and those caliber level of fighters. He beat Golota, however awful those fights were in terms of Bowe's performances. The only lost he had was against Holyfield. He was a unified champion, and a title holder in a solid heavyweight era.

Schemling was actually more inconsistent. He had a longer spurt, and probably has the better win (Louis), but he lost to Sharkey, Baer, Hamas, and other less notables.

His claim to fame is beating a smaller and somewhat old Mickey Walker, and a possibly green Joe Louis. His next best wins are mostly second rate fighters. He did fight in a harder and tougher time, but his resume isn't really sensational. The Louis win is really his biggest feat. After that it gets a little bit sketchy.

I think it would be unfair not to list Schmeling's victories over Jack Sharkey, Young Stribling, Paulino Uzcudun, Steve Hamas, even Risko & Neusel, if you're listing the likes of Seldon, Coetzer and Dokes for Bowe. I felt Schmeling's loss to Sharkey was a joke of a decision, much like the DQ in their first meeting which Sharkey was getting the better of. Bowe's win over Tubbs was a bit questionable.

Surely a case can be made that Bowe deserves to be rated above Schmeling, especially if you take into account how they would do in a head-to-head match-up. I do not think Schmeling was suited to fight super heavyweights the size of Bowe.

[mr. magoo]

Couple of points.

1. Bowe defeated an all time great lineal heavyweight champion in his prime to win the title.

2. Schmeling won the vacant title, against a man that I would not rate anywhere near as high as the man who preceded Bowe as a titlist.

3. Bowe was never stopped and beaten only once by a great fighter who he defeated twice.

4. Schmeling was beaten 10 times, and stopped on a few occasions. Some of those losses were against men that were not exactly top tier opponents.

5. Although Bowe did not face ALL of the best fighters of his time, he still reached the top of the mountain in an era where the summit was very hard to get to, and the competition stiff.

6. Schmeling was a champion and top rater during a time when the division was somewhat in shambles, even though the talent pool wasn't that bad.

7. Bowe's career may have been short, but he did manage to compile a very impressive record of something like 43-1-0-33, or somewhere therabouts.

8. Schmeling left the game with a record that looked something to the effect of 50-10-40...


9. Both men had impressive amateur careers and won a fair number of tournaments each, but Bowe had the accomplishment of medaling in the olympics and arguably came up with a better crop of amateurs.

10. Schmeling may indeed have the single best win between the two men, but he also got hammered in one round in the rematch.

[PetethePrince]

I think it would be unfair not to list Schmeling's victories over Jack Sharkey, Young Stribling, Paulino Uzcudun, Steve Hamas, even Risko & Neusel, if you're listing the likes of Seldon, Coetzer and Dokes for Bowe. I felt Schmeling's loss to Sharkey was a joke of a decision, much like the DQ in their first meeting which Sharkey was getting the better of. Bowe's win over Tubbs was a bit questionable.

Good points, that is fair. The Sharkey win seems to get forgotten because of the DQ.

Surely a case can be made that Bowe deserves to be rated above Schmeling, especially if you take into account how they would do in a head-to-head match-up. I do not think Schmeling was suited to fight super heavyweights the size of Bowe.

Yep. If you rank in terms of H2H, or even if you don't... I think you can make a case either way.

[MRBILL]

:patsch

Dude, that's no doubt.........:good

MR.BILL

[PetethePrince]

Dude, that's no doubt.........:good

MR.BILL

But nobody would rate Schemling over Bowe because they think he would beat him. Your criteria is beyond unfair for older fighters.

[MRBILL]

But nobody would rate Schemling over Bowe because they think he would beat him. Your criteria is beyond unfair for older fighters.

Fuck that.......... I love old farts, etc................ But Mad Max was nothing special as a fighter / champion....... He simply was very good....... But at 6' tall and 193 pounds, he is NOT gonna whip the 1992 version of Bowe who was 6' 5" tall and 235 pounds.......... 'Tain't gonna happen, mango....
:-(

MR.BILL

[Boxed Ears]

Fuck that.......... I love old farts, etc................ But Mad Max was nothing special as a fighter / champion....... He simply was very good....... But at 6' tall and 193 pounds, he is NOT gonna whip the 1992 version of Bowe who was 6' 5" tall and 235 pounds.......... 'Tain't gonna happen, mango....
:-(

MR.BILL

Not that I think Schmeling would beat him either but I think you place too much on size. Louis was similarly sized to Schmeling and Buddy Baer similarly sized to Bowe. I understand that Schmeling is no Louis and Baer is no Bowe but still, I don't place so much on the super heavyweight size advantages. I certainly wouldn't favor Schmeling, but I wouldn't write him off either.

[bodhi]

When it´s not h2h I can´t see it. Schmeling has not only the bigger win in Louis but also more wins over top contenders than Bowe. People go on about Louis beeing a bit too green against Schmeling but ignore that Schmeling was considered beeing past his prime when he faced Louis the first time. Yeah, Schmeling had more losses but most of them came on the tail end of his career or early in it. During his prime he only lost to Jack Sharkey, a fight most people think he actually won, Max Baer and Steve Hamas, who he beat a year later. All three top contenders and two champs at one time.
Schmeling has the better resume, the better longevity and the better single win than Bowe. Somebody stated he was simply a good fighter. I disagree, he was a great fighter who seriously get´s underated by some on here. I´m not talking about him beeing a Top10 or Top15 hw but Top20 for sure.

I think a few years back there was a thread about which hw champs beat the most ring rated contenders and Schmeling ended much higher than most people expected.

[bodhi]

Couple of points.

1. Bowe defeated an all time great lineal heavyweight champion in his prime to win the title.

2. Schmeling won the vacant title, against a man that I would not rate anywhere near as high as the man who preceded Bowe as a titlist.

True. But he beat the same man in the rematch but gort screwed. That evens that out a bit.


3. Bowe was never stopped and beaten only once by a great fighter who he defeated twice.

I would like to throw in Holyfield´s medical problems at the time.


4. Schmeling was beaten 10 times, and stopped on a few occasions. Some of those losses were against men that were not exactly top tier opponents.

Many of those losses came either when he was still green and fighting at lhw or at the end of his career. During and slightly after his prime he only lost to top contenders and aside from Baer he also holds a win over them.


5. Although Bowe did not face ALL of the best fighters of his time, he still reached the top of the mountain in an era where the summit was very hard to get to, and the competition stiff.

6. Schmeling was a champion and top rater during a time when the division was somewhat in shambles, even though the talent pool wasn't that bad.

Schmeling fought all of the best fighters of his time. You can´t ask more of him. Bowe, on the other hand, did not, he even avoided the best in Lennox Lewis by giving up a belt.


7. Bowe's career may have been short, but he did manage to compile a very impressive record of something like 43-1-0-33, or somewhere therabouts.

8. Schmeling left the game with a record that looked something to the effect of 50-10-40...

That´s redundant, you already went on about Schmeling´s losses. His career was 56-10-4 btw.


9. Both men had impressive amateur careers and won a fair number of tournaments each, but Bowe had the accomplishment of medaling in the olympics and arguably came up with a better crop of amateurs.

What have amateur careers to do with ranking pro boxers? Right! Nothing.


10. Schmeling may indeed have the single best win between the two men, but he also got hammered in one round in the rematch.

Schmeling was already considered past his best in the first fight, the second fight was two years later, so he may have been even more past his best. You also totally ignore the circumstances of this fight.

[turpinr]

But nobody would rate Schemling over Bowe because they think he would beat him. Your criteria is beyond unfair for older fighters.the fact that schmeling is an old fighter is the very reason bowe would hammer schemeling.the fact bowe would have a 4 stone weight advantage would help too.

[bodhi]

the fact that schmeling is an old fighter is the very reason bowe would hammer schemeling.the fact bowe would have a 4 stone weight advantage would help too.

I don´t think there was much, if any, improvement in boxing from a technical point of view from the 30s onwards. The huge changes were came from 1890 to the mid 1920s. After it the changes are marginal and not big enough to rate a newer fighter over an older one just because he fought in a more modern era.

H2h, I rank Bowe higher. Size is a factor there, also Bowe didn´t know how to use this advantage as good as Lewis or the Klitschkos, but also Bowe beeing a very good infighter despite his size. His biggest weakness maybe his lack of defence and that´s why I think in a series of three Schmeling will be able to win once - like most hw champs at the very least would against Bowe. Can´t see him against any champ without losing at least one.

[turpinr]

I don´t think there was much, if any, improvement in boxing from a technical point of view from the 30s onwards. The huge changes were came from 1890 to the mid 1920s. After it the changes are marginal and not big enough to rate a newer fighter over an older one just because he fought in a more modern era.

H2h, I rank Bowe higher. Size is a factor there, also Bowe didn´t know how to use this advantage as good as Lewis or the Klitschkos, but also Bowe beeing a very good infighter despite his size. His biggest weakness maybe his lack of defence and that´s why I think in a series of three Schmeling will be able to win once - like most hw champs at the very least would against Bowe. Can´t see him against any champ without losing at least one.
:goodi agree that bowe didn't make the most of his weight advantages against fighters like holyfield

[zadfrak]

I think Schmeling gets ignored and dismissed a little bit too easily these days.

He did Lick Joe Louis. And he sure didn't run away from a rematch and signed a contract to give the other guy another chance to beat him. How many guys do that?

And you still had maybe the greatest trainer ever in Blackburn scrutinizing the Schmeling game and developing the tactics and strategy for his fighter to beat the guy. And with that kind of braintrust looking thru a microscope to detect patterns and flaws weeks before a bout & still going out and beating Louis is still one helluva accomplishment. And the beating Max took from a guy like Baer and staying in there was incredible.

[bodhi]

I think Schmeling gets ignored and dismissed a little bit too easily these days.

He did Lick Joe Louis. And he sure didn't run away from a rematch and signed a contract to give the other guy another chance to beat him. How many guys do that?

And you still had maybe the greatest trainer ever in Blackburn scrutinizing the Schmeling game and developing the tactics and strategy for his fighter to beat the guy. And with that kind of braintrust looking thru a microscope to detect patterns and flaws weeks before a bout & still going out and beating Louis is still one helluva accomplishment. And the beating Max took from a guy like Baer and staying in there was incredible.

Well he gave Baer the same beating in return. That fight was not a one sided smashing but a very even fight going into the final round of the fight. There could even be an argument made Schmeling was ahead on the cards. Baer won but Schmeling has not to be ashamed of his performance.

I agree with the rest though.

[BUDW]

I like Max's chance of winning, I think he gets inside Bowe and wins a tough fight on the inside.

[frankenfrank]

He can.

He won a series against Holyfield.

He beat Seldon, Dokes, Coetzer, Tubbs, Thomas, and those caliber level of fighters. He beat Golota, however awful those fights were in terms of Bowe's performances. The only lost he had was against Holyfield. He was a unified champion, and a title holder in a solid heavyweight era.

Schemling was actually more inconsistent. He had a longer spurt, and probably has the better win (Louis), but he lost to Sharkey, Baer, Hamas, and other less notables.

His claim to fame is beating a smaller and somewhat old Mickey Walker, and a possibly green Joe Louis. His next best wins are mostly second rate fighters. He did fight in a harder and tougher time, but his resume isn't really sensational. The Louis win is really his biggest feat. After that it gets a little bit sketchy.
Schmelling was the only fighter to stop hamas and the only one to stop stribling.
also see boxrec for the nature of his 'loss' to sharkey and also he had a win over sharkey (by DQ).
schmelling had the better relative opposition considering he fought the best of his time , unlike bowe.
but bowe would have definitely beaten schmelling if they ever fought.
p4p i do not know who is the better of the two. i assume it is bowe by a small margin. h2h definitely bowe.
both were linear champions.
i can understand the ranking of each above the other , but bowe over schmelling is the better choice IMO.

[Russell]

I like Max's chance of winning, I think he gets inside Bowe and wins a tough fight on the inside.

Oh yes, of all the ways he could win of course he'd beat Bowe on the inside. :rofl

[MRBILL]

Not that I think Schmeling would beat him either but I think you place too much on size. Louis was similarly sized to Schmeling and Buddy Baer similarly sized to Bowe. I understand that Schmeling is no Louis and Baer is no Bowe but still, I don't place so much on the super heavyweight size advantages. I certainly wouldn't favor Schmeling, but I wouldn't write him off either.

I don't actually place size at the top myself.... But, I'll go along with what Foreman told me yrs ago..... Foreman said: "When your opponent is 200 to 200 PLUS pounds and solid, anything can happen if you get nailed."

Mad Max Schmelling was closer to 190 when fit to fight and only about 6' tall on the button......

I love Ol' Max, but he can't beat a motivated Bowe from 1991 thru 1993..... Nor the Bowe of '95 who was looking good against the Cuban stiff--Jorge L. Gonzalez........

MR.BILL:deal:rasta

[PowerPuncher]

Goto go with Bowe on dominance and head to head, yes Schmelling has some good wins but he has bad losses too and losing to the likes of Baer and getting blasted out in 1 round, even if it was Louis, means his overall performance is lower. Then again you could factor in that Schmelling fought pretty much everyone from his era, Bowe didnt fight Lennox, Tyson, Mercer, Morrison, Foreman, Holmes, Rudduck for whatever reasons

[RockysSplitNose]

How's it going Russell - yeah I'd rank Bowe over Schmeling personally (check out my 'my greatest heavyweight champs list' thread - in fact don't haha) but yeah I think head-to-head the Bowe of the night of the first Holyfield fight has the size (enough condition) the inside game, the range and power in the jab and the desire and refusal to respect reputations and - thought Bowe on that night was a great fighter - I think it probably would've been a good fight because nobody other than Joe Louis in the rematch had an easy time with him - and I'm sure Schmeling would've definately got his attention a few times with the right hand and he was such an awkward guy to fight and get the range with.

[PetethePrince]

Fuck that.......... I love old farts, etc................ But Mad Max was nothing special as a fighter / champion....... He simply was very good....... But at 6' tall and 193 pounds, he is NOT gonna whip the 1992 version of Bowe who was 6' 5" tall and 235 pounds.......... 'Tain't gonna happen, mango....
:-(

MR.BILL

You just like hearing yourself talk.

[MRBILL]

You just like hearing yourself talk.

Look..... Max Schmeling the fighter / champion of his best yrs stemming from 1927 to 1933 would NOT do well with the 1990s crop of heavies....... And Riddick Bowe was a top dog in that decade up until 1996........ C'mon, wake up and smell the coffee pot brewing.... Max Schmeling doesn't have the tools to beat a peak Bowe.......... Bowe's jab, right cross and ability to fight on the inside would lead to Schmeling's doom......... And Schmeling is not gonna outbox Bowe from long range, either......... Jab for jab, Bowe wins that war as well......... Realistically speaking, "Bowe-Schmeling" is a mismatch on paper and in the ring.........
:deal:bbb

MR.BILL

[bodhi]

Look..... Max Schmeling the fighter / champion of his best yrs stemming from 1927 to 1933 would NOT do well with the 1990s crop of heavies....... And Riddick Bowe was a top dog in that decade up until 1996........ C'mon, wake up and smell the coffee pot brewing.... Max Schmeling doesn't have the tools to beat a peak Bowe.......... Bowe's jab, right cross and ability to fight on the inside would lead to Schmeling's doom......... And Schmeling is not gonna outbox Bowe from long range, either......... Jab for jab, Bowe wins that war as well......... Realistically speaking, "Bowe-Schmeling" is a mismatch on paper and in the ring.........
:deal:bbb

MR.BILL

While I think Bowe would beat Schmeling, I don't think it would be a mismatch. Schmeling's ring intelligence, cold-bloodedness, methodical approach, serious power, feinting and setting traps, technical skill and Bowe's lack of defence would allow him to shine at times. Bowe would have his hands full with Schmeling.

[MRBILL]

:dealWhile I think Bowe would beat Schmeling, I don't think it would be a mismatch. Schmeling's ring intelligence, cold-bloodedness, methodical approach, serious power, feinting and setting traps, technical skill and Bowe's lack of defence would allow him to shine at times. Bowe would have his hands full with Schmeling.

I don't see it that way.......... I see Bowe stopping Schmeling within 7 rds..... Just too big, skilled and powerful......... Schmeling can only run to keep alive.......... Bowe eventually finds his man and puts him away.......

No way Max Schmeling was as tough or gutsy as Holy was in the 1992 encounter with Bowe when Holy was a lean but ripped 205 pounds....... I cannot picture Max Schmeling absorbing them types of shots thrown by either dude for 12 rds...........

MR.BILL:-(

[bodhi]

:deal

I don't see it that way.......... I see Bowe stopping Schmeling within 7 rds..... Just too big, skilled and powerful......... Schmeling can only run to keep alive.......... Bowe eventually finds his man and puts him away.......

No way Max Schmeling was as tough or gutsy as Holy was in the 1992 encounter with Bowe when Holy was a lean but ripped 205 pounds....... I cannot picture Max Schmeling absorbing them types of shots thrown by either dude for 12 rds...........

MR.BILL:-(

Ever watched Baer-Schmeling? Or Schmeling-Louis I? In both fights Schmeling took harder shots than Holy against Bowe.

[MRBILL]

Ever watched Baer-Schmeling? Or Schmeling-Louis I? In both fights Schmeling took harder shots than Holy against Bowe.

Certainly some good power was there that Schmeling tasted against "Baer and Louis," but the leverage was missing..... Bowe's right cross angled downward on Schmeling's face is gonna have an impact with a serious thud........

Baer was a wide & wild swinging brawler who lacked finess and skill....... If he caught you cold, you were dead meat... But skilled fighters with savy, skill and strength could avoid his sloppy rushes.......

Joe Louis was not at his best in 1936 for Schmeling.... Louis was beginning to slack off in training and Jack Blackburn knew it too...... Things had been going too good for the 22 year old Louis.... An upset was in the air...... Max Schmeling was well trained and serious at age 32.......

MR.BILL

[mattdonnellon]

I favor Bowe but it's crazy to put any weight on the Louis 2 fight, Max was way past it-he was even nicely on the way down in the FIRST Louis contest. Certainly Bowe\s losses(wins?) over Golota were far nearer prime than these. I actually rate Sharkey over Schmeling but Jack was one hell of a boxer.

[MRBILL]

The '36 victory for Schmeling over Louis was based on a combo of things.... 1.) Schmeling trained his ass off in '36 for Louis; Louis did not train his ass off for that fight..... So, basically speaking, Schmeling was the aging veteran with rounds of experience and Louis was the hot-shot upstart who momentarily lost his focus for one fight, and it cost him dearly... Also, Joe Louis had that flaw of dropping his jab instead of bringing back to his chin for coverage......

MR.BILL

[McGrain]

Schmeling has Louis. He rates higher.

[PetethePrince]

Look..... Max Schmeling the fighter / champion of his best yrs stemming from 1927 to 1933 would NOT do well with the 1990s crop of heavies....... And Riddick Bowe was a top dog in that decade up until 1996........ C'mon, wake up and smell the coffee pot brewing.... Max Schmeling doesn't have the tools to beat a peak Bowe.......... Bowe's jab, right cross and ability to fight on the inside would lead to Schmeling's doom......... And Schmeling is not gonna outbox Bowe from long range, either......... Jab for jab, Bowe wins that war as well......... Realistically speaking, "Bowe-Schmeling" is a mismatch on paper and in the ring.........
:deal:bbb

MR.BILL

And yet nothing has changed from before. Go back 5 posts before from me. You just like the sound of your own voice and that's fine.

[MRBILL]

And yet nothing has changed from before. Go back 5 posts before from me. You just like the sound of your own voice and that's fine.

Yeah, that's bullshit..........:twisted::patsch

MR.BILL

Note:

Again, I like old timers from the golden era, but I will NOT invest too much stock in guys like "Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer, Charles, Marciano and Johnasson" as to being highly successful with the crop of heavies from the middle-60s to the current time here in 2010.... Oh, I'm sure some would win a few fights in a time machine, but overall, they'd fail or be slaughtered in the end...... Heavyweight boxing really jumped up when Clay / Ali burst onto the scene........
:deal

[mr. magoo]

=bodhi;5811058]True. But he beat the same man in the rematch but gort screwed. That evens that out a bit.

I'm not sure that I would call it "even." Evander Holyfield was an all time great lineal champion. The man who Schmeling beat for the title was a a mere challenger who the preceding champ had beaten convincingly, and Schmeling's victory was earned via DQ, rather than in an epic war such as the one between Bowe and Holyfield.. The rematch was a controversial decision, but still a loss.. If controversy is what we're using to award automatic victories, than it could be said that Bowe's contest with Holyfield was temporarily interrupted by a parachuter entering the ring, giving his opponent time to rest...... Either way, Bowe's taking of the title is not equally matched by Schmeling's crowing as champ......



I would like to throw in Holyfield´s medical problems at the time.

Agreed, Holyfield was in miserable shape.. But, Bowe still took two out of three... You can't punish the man for going in there and doing what he needed to do.. The fact that Holyfield wasn't prepared doesn't make Schmeling's resume look any better.


Many of those losses came either when he was still green and fighting at lhw or at the end of his career. During and slightly after his prime he only lost to top contenders and aside from Baer he also holds a win over them.


" Aside from Baer " isn't the reality.... Schmeling got KTFO.... Nothing like this ever happened to Bowe, despite the fact that he fought men who were better.. Bowe also fought top contenders both before and after his prime had been reached... He still didn't drop anywhere near as many fights as Schmeling.. Also, Schemling was four years and forty fights into his pro career when he lost to the journeyman Gypsey Daniels.. Frankly, I think you're going to be hard pressed to make a case that he wasn't prime when this happened...


Schmeling fought all of the best fighters of his time. You can´t ask more of him. Bowe, on the other hand, did not, he even avoided the best in Lennox Lewis by giving up a belt.

I acknowledged Bowe avoiding Lewis in my previous post, and agree that it dented his legacy. But, the fact is Riddick still fought a fair number of men who were either at or near the top of the division from 1992-1996, and again did not lose as many fights as Schmeling...



That´s redundant, you already went on about Schmeling´s losses. His career was 56-10-4 btw.



I listed his career record and when doing so used the words " to the effect of" 56-10-40.. When I placed the number 40 to the right of his losses, I meant KNOCKOUTS...... I have a feeling you knew what I was talking about, but in either case, by listing his 4 draws you've only weakened his record and strengthened my argument, so I'm fine with that.



What have amateur careers to do with ranking pro boxers? Right! Nothing.

In terms of the "pros"? Nothing.. But when I rate fighters, I prefer to look at the WHOLE picture and not just selectively pick and chose the portions of their lives as fighters where it suits me. Forgive my giving merit to the fact that medaling in the olympics is a huge accomplishment that I feel deserves mention.


Schmeling was already considered past his best in the first fight, the second fight was two years later, so he may have been even more past his best. You also totally ignore the circumstances of this fight.

You accuse me of ignoring "circumstances" when you conveniently forgot to mention that Louis was only two years into his pro career, while Schmeling was a former world champion.... Now, let me say that another poster would jump all over you for this, but knowing something about the scenario, I won't... Louis entered the pros with an extensive amateur career, had good management and wins over two former champs before facing Schmeling.. He also had the advantage of fighting on his home turf, while Max was off for a full year and had only won four of his last eight fights..... But let's not dismiss the fact that Louis was still young, unpolished, undisciplined.... And this was Schmeling's chance to make an impact in the eyes of his countryman.... You can accuse others of omitting details all you want, just as long as you don't do the same thing yourself.....

[MRBILL]

Again, yes, as much as I admired the late Mad Max Schmeling in the ring, it is true that he won and lost the title in very dissatisfying manners...........

As for Evander Holy, well, his Heart issue against Moorer in 1994 was bullshit.... If anything, I'll buy that his Shoulders and Rotor-Cuffs were either torn or injured to a degree from "Roid" abuse and serious weight-lifting.........

MR.BILL

[anarci]

:patsch Schmeling would be lucky to make it past the 2nd round in fact Im even gonna say Bowe starches him in 1. Cant believe this is even being debated here. There is nothing Schmeling could do to win this one. this is a no brainer i dont see that this one could even be up for debate. Schmeling had a so so chin against 190lb heavys, how is he gonna do against a Mobile 6-5 240 Big punching Bowe:huh

[MRBILL]

:patsch Schmeling would be lucky to make it past the 2nd round in fact Im even gonna say Bowe starches him in 1. Cant believe this is even being debated here. There is nothing Schmeling could do to win this one. this is a no brainer i dont see that this one could even be up for debate. Schmeling had a so so chin against 190lb heavys, how is he gonna do against a Mobile 6-5 240 Big punching Bowe:huh


:yep:hey:good:bbb:thumbsup:hat:happy

MR.BILL

[MRBILL]

Anyone see the 2002 film "Joe and Max" with Leonard Roberts and Til Schweiger???? I bought it at BlockBuster on a used Video for 5 bucks several yrs back....... I like the film....... I enjoyed it........ Richard Roundtree (Shaft) plays Jack "Chappie" Blackburn....... Check it out, dudes.........

MR.BILL:deal:thumbsup:hat

[PetethePrince]

Yeah, that's bullshit..........:twisted::patsch

MR.BILL

Note:

Again, I like old timers from the golden era, but I will NOT invest too much stock in guys like "Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer, Charles, Marciano and Johnasson" as to being highly successful with the crop of heavies from the middle-60s to the current time here in 2010.... Oh, I'm sure some would win a few fights in a time machine, but overall, they'd fail or be slaughtered in the end...... Heavyweight boxing really jumped up when Clay / Ali burst onto the scene........
:deal

Look. Most people can rate Schemling over Bowe, but that doesn't mean that they think Max beats Riddick. Do you really rate greatness just based on H2H? This is what I've been getting at the whole time. But you keep rambling on about liking the old time fighters. That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

[PetethePrince]

:patsch Schmeling would be lucky to make it past the 2nd round in fact Im even gonna say Bowe starches him in 1. Cant believe this is even being debated here. There is nothing Schmeling could do to win this one. this is a no brainer i dont see that this one could even be up for debate. Schmeling had a so so chin against 190lb heavys, how is he gonna do against a Mobile 6-5 240 Big punching Bowe:huh

Well it's not. Bill's just arguing with himself.

[anarci]

Yeah, that's bullshit..........:twisted::patsch

MR.BILL

Note:

Again, I like old timers from the golden era, but I will NOT invest too much stock in guys like "Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer, Charles, Marciano and Johnasson" as to being highly successful with the crop of heavies from the middle-60s to the current time here in 2010.... Oh, I'm sure some would win a few fights in a time machine, but overall, they'd fail or be slaughtered in the end...... Heavyweight boxing really jumped up when Clay / Ali burst onto the scene........
:deal Well i do agree with everything you said except for saying that it started with Ali. I think it started with Liston and Liston would be atleast even money with the Klitchkos, in A HTH. In fact im leaning towards Liston to ko Wlad Vitali would be a more difficult task.

[MRBILL]

Well i do agree with everything you said except for saying that it started with Ali. I think it started with Liston and Liston would be atleast even money with the Klitchkos, in A HTH. In fact im leaning towards Liston to ko Wlad Vitali would be a more difficult task.

Alright, I'll buy that.........:thumbsup

MR.BILL

[Hookie]

I think it would be unfair not to list Schmeling's victories over Jack Sharkey, Young Stribling, Paulino Uzcudun, Steve Hamas, even Risko & Neusel, if you're listing the likes of Seldon, Coetzer and Dokes for Bowe. I felt Schmeling's loss to Sharkey was a joke of a decision, much like the DQ in their first meeting which Sharkey was getting the better of. Bowe's win over Tubbs was a bit questionable.

Surely a case can be made that Bowe deserves to be rated above Schmeling, especially if you take into account how they would do in a head-to-head match-up. I do not think Schmeling was suited to fight super heavyweights the size of Bowe.


Good post. I do feel that Schmeling should have been the first 2x HW champ though. With the upset win over Louis he should have got the title shot vs. Braddock.

Most "boxing people" felt that Braddock would lose to either man (Schmeling or Louis). It was decided that it would be better to have a black HW champ than a nazi HW champ. Louis became the 2nd black HW champ and Braddock would get a percentage of Louis' future purses as part of the deal. WTF? Yep, it's true!

Louis did the right thing and eventually fought a rematch with Schmeling (Louis KO1).

With that said, Schmeling was a good fighter. Head to head? Bowe wins though.

Schmeling did have some good wins. He beat the likes of P. Uzcudun, J. Sharkey, Y. Stribling, M. Walker, S. Hamas, and J. Louis among others. He lost to 10 different fighters over a 24 year pro career that included 70 fights. He went 6-10-1 vs. the 10 men who beat him.

[MRBILL]

I love the tale of Max Schmeling.... He went through the wringer during his pro career; even dealt with WW2 as well..... He went from being broke, to rich, and back and forth over the yrs.... I'm glad Coca-Cola picked him up as a sales rep in his post boxing days..... He also paid bills for Joe Louis, too......... A heluva guy........ He lived to see age 99....... Not bad.......

MR.BILL

[bodhi]

Certainly some good power was there that Schmeling tasted against "Baer and Louis," but the leverage was missing..... Bowe's right cross angled downward on Schmeling's face is gonna have an impact with a serious thud........

Baer was a wide & wild swinging brawler who lacked finess and skill....... If he caught you cold, you were dead meat... But skilled fighters with savy, skill and strength could avoid his sloppy rushes.......

Joe Louis was not at his best in 1936 for Schmeling.... Louis was beginning to slack off in training and Jack Blackburn knew it too...... Things had been going too good for the 22 year old Louis.... An upset was in the air...... Max Schmeling was well trained and serious at age 32.......

Yeah, Baer´s and Louis´ punches missed the leverage compared to Bowe´s punches. :lol: Both rank much higher than Bowe as punchers.

Baer wasn´t as sloppy as you think. When he put himself together he was far from beeing sloppy. And he did against Schmeling.

The Louis from the first Schmeling fight is still a better fighter than the best Bowe we ever saw. I stand and fall with that :deal


I favor Bowe but it's crazy to put any weight on the Louis 2 fight, Max was way past it-he was even nicely on the way down in the FIRST Louis contest. Certainly Bowe\s losses(wins?) over Golota were far nearer prime than these. I actually rate Sharkey over Schmeling but Jack was one hell of a boxer.

Sharkey was brilliant when he was focused and I h2h I take the best Sharkey over the best Schmeling but then I would take Sharkey on hsi best day over many other greats. For me he is a bit of a similar "should have been" as Walcott.
In a ranking I have Schmeling higher. Better resume, slightly better longevity and he was more consistent.


The '36 victory for Schmeling over Louis was based on a combo of things.... 1.) Schmeling trained his ass off in '36 for Louis; Louis did not train his ass off for that fight..... So, basically speaking, Schmeling was the aging veteran with rounds of experience and Louis was the hot-shot upstart who momentarily lost his focus for one fight, and it cost him dearly... Also, Joe Louis had that flaw of dropping his jab instead of bringing back to his chin for coverage......


You could also say there was the young but already experienced against top fighters and unbeatable up and comer and a former champ who was already on his way out but still gave this young hot shot a lesson. :deal

:patsch Schmeling would be lucky to make it past the 2nd round in fact Im even gonna say Bowe starches him in 1. Cant believe this is even being debated here. There is nothing Schmeling could do to win this one. this is a no brainer i dont see that this one could even be up for debate. Schmeling had a so so chin against 190lb heavys, how is he gonna do against a Mobile 6-5 240 Big punching Bowe:huh

Nobody talks about Schmeling beating Bowe. Even myself, probably the biggest Schmeling supporter on this side, acknowledges Bowe´s superiority h2h. But I don´t think Bowe would blast Schmeling out. Schmeling would give him a good fight. Schmeling took the punches of Louis and Baer who are both bigger punchers than Bowe, so I think he could take Bowe´s shots quite well - even so he may get stopped in the last third of the fight on accumulation similar to the Baer fight. And Schmeling´s strength and Bowe´s weaknesses would mean that Bowe would have his hands full in every round even if he wins all of them.


Anyone see the 2002 film "Joe and Max" with Leonard Roberts and Til Schweiger???? I bought it at BlockBuster on a used Video for 5 bucks several yrs back....... I like the film....... I enjoyed it........ Richard Roundtree (Shaft) plays Jack "Chappie" Blackburn....... Check it out, dudes.........

Yep. Not a great movie but a good one. Til Schweiger can´t act though. But he never could and still made some good movies - watch "Knockin´ on heaven´s door" where he also was the director. Great movie :good


Look. Most people can rate Schemling over Bowe, but that doesn't mean that they think Max beats Riddick. Do you really rate greatness just based on H2H? This is what I've been getting at the whole time. But you keep rambling on about liking the old time fighters. That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

:good:good:good


Good post. I do feel that Schmeling should have been the first 2x HW champ though. With the upset win over Louis he should have got the title shot vs. Braddock.

Most "boxing people" felt that Braddock would lose to either man (Schmeling or Louis). It was decided that it would be better to have a black HW champ than a nazi HW champ. Louis became the 2nd black HW champ and Braddock would get a percentage of Louis' future purses as part of the deal. WTF? Yep, it's true!

Louis did the right thing and eventually fought a rematch with Schmeling (Louis KO1).

I agree. Pretty shady although understandable move from the Louis and Braddock camp.
That rematch shouldn´t count too much imo. Schmeling was already past it in the first fight and even more in the second. Add the circumstances and I think it´s clear what I mean. But that´s something why I rate Johnson higher than most. He stayed calm and relaxed in similar circumstances against Jeffries. That mental pressure must have been tremendous. But then Schmeling was no Johnson and Jeffries no Louis.


With that said, Schmeling was a good fighter. Head to head? Bowe wins though.

Schmeling did have some good wins. He beat the likes of P. Uzcudun, J. Sharkey, Y. Stribling, M. Walker, S. Hamas, and J. Louis among others. He lost to 10 different fighters over a 24 year pro career that included 70 fights. He went 6-10-1 vs. the 10 men who beat him.

Risko and Neusel deserve to be named on this list. :good And the 10 men who beat him ... well, yeah they did but during his prime or slightly past it he lost 3 times and he also holds wins over two of those guys. Those other losses come at the beginning or end of his career and like with other fighters should be somewhat excused.


I love the tale of Max Schmeling.... He went through the wringer during his pro career; even dealt with WW2 as well..... He went from being broke, to rich, and back and forth over the yrs.... I'm glad Coca-Cola picked him up as a sales rep in his post boxing days..... He also paid bills for Joe Louis, too......... A heluva guy........ He lived to see age 99....... Not bad.......


What I found most interesting about him that despite what happened he always stayed on decent to very good terms with the people in power, be it the falling apart Weimar Republic, the third Reich, Western Germany or the unified Germany, while at the same time staying true to himself and his people. That´s a very fine line he walked.

[bodhi]

First I want to add that I don´t like discussing with you. I followed quite a few of your discussions and even if you have the worse arguments you put them so well the other guy has no chance. Good work :good

I'm not sure that I would call it "even." Evander Holyfield was an all time great lineal champion. The man who Schmeling beat for the title was a a mere challenger who the preceding champ had beaten convincingly, and Schmeling's victory was earned via DQ, rather than in an epic war such as the one between Bowe and Holyfield.. The rematch was a controversial decision, but still a loss.. If controversy is what we're using to award automatic victories, than it could be said that Bowe's contest with Holyfield was temporarily interrupted by a parachuter entering the ring, giving his opponent time to rest...... Either way, Bowe's taking of the title is not equally matched by Schmeling's crowing as champ......

Well, if I remember right I wrote "evens it out a bit" not that it evens it out. Small but important difference. Yeah, when you go by the crowning fight Bowe´s title winning performance was better than Schmeling´s or to say it with the words of Eckhard Dagge: "at least he won the title by standing on his feet instead of lying on the floor squirming in pain." :lol:
I don´t think the second fight between Schmeling and Sharkey was controversial. Schmeling got screwed. Even Sharkey´s fellow countrymen knew it.


Agreed, Holyfield was in miserable shape.. But, Bowe still took two out of three... You can't punish the man for going in there and doing what he needed to do.. The fact that Holyfield wasn't prepared doesn't make Schmeling's resume look any better.

True. But that opens a door for speculation about how Bowe would have fared against a healthy Holyfield. Won´t start this discussion here though.


" Aside from Baer " isn't the reality.... Schmeling got KTFO.... Nothing like this ever happened to Bowe, despite the fact that he fought men who were better.. Bowe also fought top contenders both before and after his prime had been reached... He still didn't drop anywhere near as many fights as Schmeling.. Also, Schemling was four years and forty fights into his pro career when he lost to the journeyman Gypsey Daniels.. Frankly, I think you're going to be hard pressed to make a case that he wasn't prime when this happened...

Well, what is prime? Just the time where a fighter is supposed to be at his best or also the weight he is at his best? Would the Mike Tyson of ´88 be at his prime if he would have been forced to fight at the cw limit.
Schmeling drained himself to make the lhw limit at the time. Daniels did what he had to do but Schmeling was badly weight drained. That should be considered when looking at this loss.

Bowe also had a professional manufactured career, a benefit Schmeling, and most fighters of his era, did not have which allowed him to avoid stiff challengers early on and build a solid record and experience. Bowe also made enough money to avoid fighting when he shouldn´t have. Unlike Max Schmeling who had to fight after WW2 - and beeing wounded after getting shot while parachuting - to make some money.

Let´s look at Schmeling´s losses and draws. Three of his losses came early in his career, as did three of his four draws. Two came after WW2. All of those can be excused like they are for so many other fighters. So, there are 5 losses and 1 draw left. The one draw is against a fighter he beat before and after. He proved his superiority over Uzcudun - and clearly. Then there is the already explained loss to Daniels. The loss to Jack Sharkey shouldn´t have been one. We had that already.
So, there are three losses to three fighters left. If you look at those you will see he also beat two of them. And for one of them you have to factor in Schmeling already beeing past his best and the circumstances of the fight (Louis II).
When you look closer into his record it looks much better than on first glance.


I acknowledged Bowe avoiding Lewis in my previous post, and agree that it dented his legacy. But, the fact is Riddick still fought a fair number of men who were either at or near the top of the division from 1992-1996, and again did not lose as many fights as Schmeling...

Yeah, Bowe didn´t lose as often as Schmeling. Even when you factor in what I wrote before. But Schmeling still fought more top contenders than Bowe and didn´t avoid anyone. Bowe didn´t only avoid Lewis but a few others as well - as somebody else in this thread already explained. I think that should be considered.
I like Schmeling´s resume over Bowe´s despite the losses. I think Schmeling´s a tad better resume and his better longevity outweighs Bowe´s consistency and dominance - actually pretty similar to my thoughts on the Holyfield-Tyson ranking.


I listed his career record and when doing so used the words " to the effect of" 56-10-40.. When I placed the number 40 to the right of his losses, I meant KNOCKOUTS...... I have a feeling you knew what I was talking about, but in either case, by listing his 4 draws you've only weakened his record and strengthened my argument, so I'm fine with that.

You wrote Schmeling had a 50-10 (40) record. Yeah I know those 40 should have been KOs. I don´t care if I weakened Schmeling´s record with that. I just wanted to put it straight.


In terms of the "pros"? Nothing.. But when I rate fighters, I prefer to look at the WHOLE picture and not just selectively pick and chose the portions of their lives as fighters where it suits me. Forgive my giving merit to the fact that medaling in the olympics is a huge accomplishment that I feel deserves mention.

Well, why don´t we factor in Abraham´s success as a cyclist then when discussing him? Amateur boxing became a whole different sport in the 80s than pro boxing. Not comparable anymore imo.
And we are discussing the pro career of these two fighters I thought. Am I wrong?


You accuse me of ignoring "circumstances" when you conveniently forgot to mention that Louis was only two years into his pro career, while Schmeling was a former world champion.... Now, let me say that another poster would jump all over you for this, but knowing something about the scenario, I won't... Louis entered the pros with an extensive amateur career, had good management and wins over two former champs before facing Schmeling.. He also had the advantage of fighting on his home turf, while Max was off for a full year and had only won four of his last eight fights..... But let's not dismiss the fact that Louis was still young, unpolished, undisciplined.... And this was Schmeling's chance to make an impact in the eyes of his countryman.... You can accuse others of omitting details all you want, just as long as you don't do the same thing yourself.....

Oh, I acknowledge Louis not beeing quite the fighter he became - also he wasn´t far from it - but like you already said while he was only two years in his career he already beat two former champs in Carnera and Baer and a few contenders like Uzcudun. That´s pretty seasoned for a young gun.
And when you factor in that most people thought Schmeling was done when he faced Louis the first time it evens the picture out. :good

[punchy]

I love the tale of Max Schmeling.... He went through the wringer during his pro career; even dealt with WW2 as well..... He went from being broke, to rich, and back and forth over the yrs.... I'm glad Coca-Cola picked him up as a sales rep in his post boxing days..... He also paid bills for Joe Louis, too......... A heluva guy........ He lived to see age 99....... Not bad.......

MR.BILL

Head to head Bowe wins though in a close contest I think, there is the chance Max would pick a flaw and a tactic to defeat Bowe. But as a human being Bowe gets KOD with the first punch compared to Schmelling.

[punchy]

Why do we have to keep bringing up Bowe only having lost one fight, he lost only once because his life went of he rails and didn't fight for over a decade not because of his fighting ability.
All the greatest fighters end up having been defeated a number of times because they fight, look at SRR and Ali as examples.

[crippet]

I love the tale of Max Schmeling.... He went through the wringer during his pro career; even dealt with WW2 as well..... He went from being broke, to rich, and back and forth over the yrs.... I'm glad Coca-Cola picked him up as a sales rep in his post boxing days..... He also paid bills for Joe Louis, too......... A heluva guy........ He lived to see age 99....... Not bad.......

MR.BILL

He also refused to fire his Jewish manager and refused to join the Nazi party and also saved the lives of some Jewish children by hiding them in his home.
Hitler never forgave him for not joining the Nazi party and had him drafted to the paratroopers and sent on suicide missions

Max is a true hero and should be given as much kudos as Ali when he refused to fight in Viet Nam.

Bowe may well win in a head to head, but I know which one I would prefer beside me in the trenches!

[mr. magoo]

He also refused to fire his Jewish manager and refused to join the Nazi party and also saved the lives of some Jewish children by hiding them in his home.
Hitler never forgave him for not joining the Nazi party and had him drafted to the paratroopers and sent on suicide missions

Max is a true hero and should be given as much kudos as Ali when he refused to fight in Viet Nam.

Bowe may well win in a head to head, but I know which one I would prefer beside me in the trenches!

Interestingly enough, I guess he became a millionare after the war by starting his own bottling company... Someone also said that Max helped pay for Joe Louis's funeral, but I don't have a source to confirm that.

[bodhi]

Interestingly enough, I guess he became a millionare after the war by starting his own bottling company... Someone also said that Max helped pay for Joe Louis's funeral, but I don't have a source to confirm that.

He helped Louis out even before he died. That´s pretty common knowledge. I read it in every biography I read about Schmeling.
I also read in one that he payed for Langford after he was found in New York by some reporter.
I know that he was the one of if not the biggest donor in post-WW2 Germany.

[mr. magoo]

He helped Louis out even before he died. That´s pretty common knowledge. I read it in every biography I read about Schmeling.
I also read in one that he payed for Langford after he was found in New York by some reporter.
I know that he was the one of if not the biggest donor in post-WW2 Germany.


Schmeling was indeed a great fighter, great business man, and a great human being. He lived a long and productive life before passing at nearly 100 years of age... There are few personalities in boxing who have as fascinating of a life story as Max Schmeling.

[MRBILL]

Well, hell, as a citizen of the globe, I too would much rather live next door to Mad Max Schmeling than that of Riddick Bowe....... That's non-negotiable all the way.... BUT! That's not the issue on hand here...... The topic is, who wins in the ring if both men were peaked? My pick is Bowe...... In 1991 and 1992, I thought Riddick Bowe was one of the best hulking heavies that I ever saw box / fight in the ring....... At 6' 5" tall and 232 to 243 pounds, he seemed to be able to do most of everything asked of him in the ring.... R.B. could jab, punch, move, fight on the inside and, take a punch..... He was the goods in 1991 and 1992..... But yes, he then showed his true desire and needs when the $$$ started coming into his bank account.... R.B. put on weight and got lazy, and then, became a slob........ Riddick Bowe deserved to lose to Holy in the '93 rematch by weighing in at 246 pounds and looking thick in the girth section..... Yet, despite the fact that I didn't approve of Bowe and Rock Newman selecting "Mathis and Hide" as comeback opponents, I did enjoy seeing Riddick Bowe hammer Jorge L. Gonzalez like a rag doll on HBO in the summer of 1995........

SO! All in all, my point is, and I ain't budging backwards, is the Bowe of 1992 manages to beat the Schmeling of 1930 in a time machine........ My guess is Schmeling cannot get around a man as big and as skilled as Riddick Bowe... And yes, Bowe's power is also a factor....... Nobody just walks through Bowe's right cross when it lands on the money........

And to hell with this hoopla that Joe Louis had the hardest right hand of all-time..... BOLLOCKS!!!!! Joe Louis was a great rhythm puncher with great power, but several other heavies had better "One-Shot" power than Joe Louis.......... Christ, Ol' Rocco Marciano edges Louis there.......... As does "Liston & Foreman." Yet, Joe Louis was the better all around fighter...... I know that.......

Max Baer was sloppy as all hell....... He was the "Foreman" of the 1930s.......... Big, strong, powerful, scary and lacking skills..... Baer threw every wide from left & right field... He also left himself wide open for precise counter-punches, as well......... Baer won many fights on his size and strength alone; not skills.........

As for my man George Foreman, well, he was a better and more polished fighter at age 40 then he was in his youth at age 25.... No doubt..... However, he was also more bulky and physically slower at age 40........ Foreman is a rare bread of fighter.........

MR.BILL

[janitor]

An argument for Bowe would prety much have to hang on the asumption that he could beat Schmeling head to head since Schmeling has the deeper resume.

Lets say that Bowe could beat Schmeling on his best day (never a given).

How often was his best day?

If a fighter is inconsistent he is somtimes going to put in a subpar peformence in his key fights, and that is going to effect his record in any era.

Max Schmelings resume has lost a lot of its lustre over the years because the situation on the ground has been forgotten. Johny Risko, Paulino Uzcdun, Young Stribling and Steve Hamas were not great fighters but they were all at the absolute pinacle of their careers when Schmeling beat them. He nipped them all off at the apex when they were considerd among the top 3 heavyweights, and beating them mattered.

[MRBILL]

An argument for Bowe would prety much have to hang on the asumption that he could beat Schmeling head to head since Schmeling has the deeper resume.

Lets say that Bowe could beat Schmeling on his best day (never a given).

How often was his best day?

If a fighter is inconsistent he is somtimes going to put in a subpar peformence in his key fights, and that is going to effect his record in any era.

Janitor,

YES! But I think we ALL here agree that Bowe had one of the SHORTEST primes from a serious / lineal heavyweight champion...... Of course many lineal title holders have blown the title in 1 or 2 defenses, but hardly anyone has ever dropped off the radar and became a joke like Bowe became by 1996 at age 29........ Bowe was just lazy........ Many fighters are..........
:|:think
Odd as it is, Buster Douglas fits the mold too......... B.D. was lazy and sluggish for most of his career before putting it altogether in Japan against a pussy-whipped Mike Tyson on HBO........ The Buster Douglas of Japan at 231 pounds in 1990 was a dangerous mo-fo in the ring....... Too bad it was for only "One" night.........
:deal
And, last but not least, I saw a lot of good heavies with talent who squandered away their careers' during the bogus WBA period of the 1980s........ All them dudes from "Weaver" onward to "Bonecrusher Smith." 1982 to 1987 was a frustrating time for WBA fans.........
:fire

MR.BILL

[janitor]

[quote=MRBILL;5823364]Janitor,

YES! But I think we ALL here agree that Bowe had one of the SHORTEST primes from a serious / lineal heavyweight champion...... Of course many lineal title holders have blown the title in 1 or 2 defenses, but hardly anyone has ever dropped off the radar and became a joke like Bowe became by 1996 at age 29........ Bowe was just lazy........ Many fighters are..........
:|:think


You could argue that most of his problems were self inflicted.

You could also argue that the selection of oponents that he did meet in short his prime left a few unanswered questions about how he would manage certain styles/types of fighter.

[MRBILL]

[quote]


You could argue that most of his problems were self inflicted.

You could also argue that the selection of oponents that he did meet in short his prime left a few unanswered questions about how he would manage certain styles/types of fighter.

The shit stuff with "Dokes & Ferguson" on HBO back in '93 was all Rock Newman's doing..... He staged and set-up them deals........... In a way, its hard to blame Newman there.... Why? Cuz Riddick Bowe made "6" million dollars apiece that totaled 12 million clams between them two lousy defenses..... Both fights were deamed "SAFE" for Riddick Bowe and it paid a whole lot, too......... ARGH!!!:twisted:

Now, but Bowe having a couple of strolls through the park with Dokes and Fergy seemingly caused the now wealthy Bowe to became lazy and unmotivated for his '93 rematch with Holy....... Come 1993, Bowe and Holy were in different mind-sets, as well as different motivational periods....... Holy was juiced (No Proof) at a ripped solid 217 1/2 pounds, while Bowe was 'Big Mac' happy at 246 pounds........ In their previous meeting Holy was ripped and lean at 205, compared to Bowe's lean 235 pounds......... Bowe fucked-up when he became wealthy..........
:deal

Bowe did have a good 1995........ Then it all came crashing down.........:|

MR.BILL:hat

[bodhi]

BUT! That's not the issue on hand here...... The topic is, who wins in the ring if both men were peaked? My pick is Bowe......

No. The topic is who ranks higher. I agree with your head to head pick, just not with the way you think the fight would look like.

Schmeling ranks higher on any list but h2h in my oppinion.


Max Baer was sloppy as all hell....... He was the "Foreman" of the 1930s.......... Big, strong, powerful, scary and lacking skills..... Baer threw every wide from left & right field... He also left himself wide open for precise counter-punches, as well......... Baer won many fights on his size and strength alone; not skills.........

Yes and no. He was a sloppy fighter, not the most polished technician and relied on his physical gifts but he wasn´t as sloppy as you make him out to be. He had some fine straight punches, good delivery, decent footwork and a decent defence.


Janitor,

YES! But I think we ALL here agree that Bowe had one of the SHORTEST primes from a serious / lineal heavyweight champion...... Of course many lineal title holders have blown the title in 1 or 2 defenses, but hardly anyone has ever dropped off the radar and became a joke like Bowe became by 1996 at age 29........ Bowe was just lazy........ Many fighters are..........
:|:think
Odd as it is, Buster Douglas fits the mold too......... B.D. was lazy and sluggish for most of his career before putting it altogether in Japan against a pussy-whipped Mike Tyson on HBO........ The Buster Douglas of Japan at 231 pounds in 1990 was a dangerous mo-fo in the ring....... Too bad it was for only "One" night.........
:deal
And, last but not least, I saw a lot of good heavies with talent who squandered away their careers' during the bogus WBA period of the 1980s........ All them dudes from "Weaver" onward to "Bonecrusher Smith." 1982 to 1987 was a frustrating time for WBA fans.........
:fire


Yeah but that´s their own fault. That should not be excused but factored in.

[Maxmomer]

Sure. I don't rate him higher, though.

[asero]

i have bowe over max.

[bodhi]

i have bowe over max.

Yeah but we know your lists are random :lol:

[MRBILL]

I rate Mad Max higher as a decent human being, but, as a champ or dangerous fighter, Bowe is way scarier to me.......... And, on his best night / nights, with the likes of Holy in '92 or Gonzalez in 1995, Bowe was a massive dude with skill and power......... Bowe's a degenerate slob as a man / citizen, but he knew how to fight--Thanks to Edward Futch, etc..... Cheers........

MR.BILL

[frankenfrank]

Schmeling has Louis. He rates higher.
Bowe has holyfield. he rates higher.

[janitor]

Bowe has holyfield. he rates higher.

There can be no question which scalp was harder to aquire relative to the contemporary contenders.

[crippet]

If Bowe and Schmelling fought once a year, every year for 10 years
Making each of their primes at the 5 year mark - I would take Schmelling to win 7 out of 10 times.
I would take Bowe H2H - but on that only
Longevity, resume, Heart, willingness to fight the best everything else is better than Bowe.

Excusing Bowe by saying he was lazy is no excuse. That is what he is. That is part of his essence..It's like excusing a boxer for having bad timing or a glass jaw or a weak punch...It is what they are!