For those here who box...A CHALLENGE!

[cross_trainer]

We need a brave soul for this job.

I wondered if someone would be willing to do the Classic section a big favor with a bit of hands-on history. If you have any friends willing to spar with you, spend a few sessions working on the stuff in Fitzsimmons' manual:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


...and tell us how it goes, what you see as Fitz's strengths and weaknesses, etc.

Anyone interested?

[Stonehands89]

We need a brave soul for this job.

I wondered if someone would be willing to do the Classic section a big favor with a bit of hands-on history. If you have any friends willing to spar with you, spend a few sessions working on the stuff in Fitzsimmons' manual:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


...and tell us how it goes, what you see as Fitz's strengths and weaknesses, etc.

Anyone interested?

I can tell you that his seeming preference for blocking is not ideal. His version of slipping punches involve the body as a whole, which is a bit.... primitive. If a modern fighter fought precisely like Fitzsimmons, sans all of the modern adaptations and ...yes.... improvements, he would be likely to get get hurt.

On the other hand, I have used the shift with great success. For those not familiar with this move, it is when an orthodox fighter feints or throws a right and then suddenly swings his right foot to the front outside of the opponent's front foot, assuming a southpaw position and a perfect angle to counter. At the same time delivering a short left hook to the solar plexus, to the chin, or both, one after the other.

By the way, both Duran and Marciano employed this technique. I suspect that their common cornerman/cutman -Freddie Brown- brought it to them.

The suggestion from this corner is that the pioneers still have something to teach and remind the modern fighter of. If they could come back from the grave and walk into Kronk or Stillman's, we would improve their game with more advanced (read: efficient) adjustments that have been made since.

[cross_trainer]

I can tell you that his seeming preference for blocking is not ideal. His version of slipping punches involve the body as a whole, which is a bit.... primitive. If a modern fighter fought precisely like Fitzsimmons, sans all of the modern adaptations and ...yes.... improvements, he would be likely to get get hurt.

On the other hand, I have used the shift with great success. For those not familiar with this move, it is when an orthodox fighter feints or throws a right and then suddenly swings his right foot to the front outside of the opponent's front foot, assuming a southpaw position and a perfect angle to counter. At the same time delivering a short left hook to the solar plexus, to the chin, or both, one after the other.

By the way, both Duran and Marciano employed this technique. I suspect that their common cornerman/cutman -Freddie Brown- brought it to them.

The suggestion from this corner is that the pioneers still have something to teach and remind the modern fighter of. If they could come back from the grave and walk into Kronk or Stillman's, we would improve their game with more advanced (read: efficient) adjustments that have been made since.

Interesting...and thanks for the evaluation of the shift.

But I suspect (though I cannot yet prove) that Fitzsimmons' style may be better than the sum of its parts. In other words, a modern fighter using his blocking, or head movement, or body punching would be at a disadvantage....but if a modern fighter used the COMPLETE style, all of the seemingly weird ingredients would mesh together well into a useful whole.

What do you think?

[Stonehands89]

Interesting...and thanks for the evaluation of the shift.

But I suspect (though I cannot yet prove) that Fitzsimmons' style may be better than the sum of its parts. In other words, a modern fighter using his blocking, or head movement, or body punching would be at a disadvantage....but if a modern fighter used the COMPLETE style, all of the seemingly weird ingredients would mesh together well into a useful whole.

What do you think?

Well, I can't quite agree.

Fitz's basic stance was designed for what was really a different sport and a different time. His hands are carried far too low and he relies on head movement while his hands are at his waist. He leans back from punches instead of properly stepping back with your hands up. Instead of efficiently parrying a jab, he 'pushes' the arm away later.

The stance of the pioneers was not tight, it was more of a rangy stance akin to a wrestler who punches. Therein lies the crux of my dissent -not to mention the fact that he was trained in a style suited for more rounds. Modern street fighters are not dissimilar in their stance because they have to watch for not only punches but also the possibility of the guy shooting in. Street fighters are pretty easy to catch because the boxer will slip and step right in at an angle in a tight formation before punching short to the chin. Pioneers, like street fighters, are more apt to "withdraw" (to use Fitz's word) when a punch is thrown than to angle in and counter like a modern well-trained boxer.

Now, there is a club of good posters (you, Janitor, Jimmy Shimmy among them) who dissent from where I stand ...but I think that most of the opposing arguments are rooted in revisionism, speculation, hearsay, and myth.

Don't misunderstand -I have reverence, sheer reverence for Fitz, Gans, Dixon, Wilde, McGovern, Langford, et al. but I stridently believe that skills evolve over time (and did so, peaking after 1940... until they reached a plateau in the sixties). I'd even allow for exceptions -Benny Leonard (although he came after the Cobweb Era) most of all would have done well in any era just as he was.

[cross_trainer]

Well, I can't quite agree.

Fitz's basic stance was designed for what was really a different sport and a different time. His hands are carried far too low and he relies on head movement while his hands are at his waist. He leans back from punches instead of properly stepping back with your hands up. Instead of efficiently parrying a jab, he 'pushes' the arm away later.

The stance of the pioneers was not tight, it was more of a rangy stance akin to a wrestler who punches. Therein lies the crux of my dissent -not to mention the fact that he was trained in a style suited for more rounds. Modern street fighters are not dissimilar in their stance because they have to watch for not only punches but also the possibility of the guy shooting in. Street fighters are pretty easy to catch because the boxer will slip and step right in at an angle in a tight formation before punching short to the chin. Pioneers, like street fighters, are more apt to "withdraw" (to use Fitz's word) when a punch is thrown than to angle in and counter like a modern well-trained boxer.

Now, there is a club of good posters (you, Janitor, Jimmy Shimmy among them) who dissent from where I stand ...but I think that most of the opposing arguments are rooted in revisionism, speculation, hearsay, and myth.

Don't misunderstand -I have reverence, sheer reverence for Fitz, Gans, Dixon, Wilde, McGovern, Langford, et al. but I stridently believe that skills evolve over time (and did so, peaking after 1940... until they reached a plateau in the sixties). I'd even allow for exceptions -Benny Leonard (although he came after the Cobweb Era) most of all would have done well in any era just as he was.

As usual, fascinating stuff. :good

Since you seem to fully understand Fitz's methods, might there be the possibility that you could test them out under (controlled) sparring conditions? That would go a long way toward convincing me one way or another. It would certainly go a long way to move my theorizing and speculation into the realm of testable fact.

I am thinking about doing likewise, though I'm rather busy with other boxing-related stuff at the moment as well.

[Kolya]

I have two newbies at my gym who are my weight class, when I begin taking them through sparring I'll try some of the stuff listed out if I can, since they're so new and learning I'll have a minimal chance of getting hurt if it doesn't work.

[JohnThomas1]

I have two newbies at my gym who are my weight class, when I begin taking them through sparring I'll try some of the stuff listed out if I can, since they're so new and learning I'll have a minimal chance of getting hurt if it doesn't work.

Teach one of them from the Fitz manual, and one the usual way and spar them together :D

Just kidding Koyla. Look forward to hearing your results. Goodness help us if you go all the way to the world title due to unbelievable results with the Fitz technique! Janitor will have a field day on us! :)

[Dempsey1238]

And the gloves, dont forget the tiny gloves they used.

[achillesthegreat]

Tell me 1 or 2 things you specifically want tried and I'll see if I can get something arranged on the weekend.

[Mendoza]

We need a brave soul for this job.

I wondered if someone would be willing to do the Classic section a big favor with a bit of hands-on history. If you have any friends willing to spar with you, spend a few sessions working on the stuff in Fitzsimmons' manual:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


...and tell us how it goes, what you see as Fitz's strengths and weaknesses, etc.

Anyone interested?

Some of those photos are amazing! This stuff is the lost art of boxing, showing where and when to coutner. Part of it was taught to Fitz by Jim Mace himself. Nice post.

As for will it work, it depends on what a fighters style is, and if he likes to counter and mix it up close. Not all fighters could pull this off.

[cross_trainer]

I have two newbies at my gym who are my weight class, when I begin taking them through sparring I'll try some of the stuff listed out if I can, since they're so new and learning I'll have a minimal chance of getting hurt if it doesn't work.

Thanks, Kolya. :good

[cross_trainer]

Tell me 1 or 2 things you specifically want tried and I'll see if I can get something arranged on the weekend.

Hmm....So much to choose from. :D

The stance would be the best starting point--it was unique by 19th century standards. Back foot flat on the floor, front heel off the ground like most fighters raise their back foot. Hands in typical "low" position, and leaning back as one of the main methods of evading punches. The jab was a little more like a fencing lunge, and in blocking straight punches you generally raised the arm to parry it upwards, as you see in the pictures.

That should be just enough for one session, I should think.

[cross_trainer]

This is going to be VERY interesting when it's finished. I'm looking forward to it. :D

[mr. magoo]

This is going to be VERY interesting when it's finished. I'm looking forward to it. :D

I think that his suggestions for athletes not to drink or smoke were really cutting edge!!

[ChrisPontius]

I can only see the chapters of the book but not read it, is that normal ?

[cross_trainer]

I can only see the chapters of the book but not read it, is that normal ?

I can read it, so perhaps it requires some viewing software you don't have? :think

In any event, you can download it in .pdf and view it. That should eliminate any problems. :good

[Stonehands89]

As usual, fascinating stuff. :good

Since you seem to fully understand Fitz's methods, might there be the possibility that you could test them out under (controlled) sparring conditions? That would go a long way toward convincing me one way or another. It would certainly go a long way to move my theorizing and speculation into the realm of testable fact.

I am thinking about doing likewise, though I'm rather busy with other boxing-related stuff at the moment as well.

I'd be game to give it a try, but it would be difficult under fire to maintain the kind of discipline to use methods I am not conditioned for... I fear I am too old to change now.

However, Achilles' offer sounds like it work better for your experiment.

[cross_trainer]

I'd be game to give it a try, but it would be difficult under fire to maintain the kind of discipline to use methods I am not conditioned for... I fear I am too old to change now.

However, Achilles' offer sounds like it work better for your experiment.

Yep. It looks like, between Achilles and Kolya, we'll get a lot of interesting data from this experiment. If you decide to do it, all the merrier--but if not, that's still great, since you'll be available with your experience to help us analyze post-sparring.

I'll give the sparring a shot as well, provided I can find somebody interested.

[China_hand_Joe]

Is the entire book there? I can read just about every other book, but not that one.

[cross_trainer]

Is the entire book there? I can read just about every other book, but not that one.

That's because you are too unclean to read the Holy Book of Fitz.

[cross_trainer]

Seriously, though, the pictures are working just fine for me...at least the second half of the book, which is the boxing portion. Try skipping ahead to that section, rather than reading through the first half.

[China_hand_Joe]

All I can get up is 2 lines at a time by using the search button.

[cross_trainer]

All I can get up is 2 lines at a time by using the search button.

That's very strange. Perhaps you have the wrong book?

Here's another link. Hopefully it will work.

[Only registered and activated users can see links],M1

:good

[China_hand_Joe]

Still no good.

How would i download it in pdf?

[cross_trainer]

Still no good.

How would i download it in pdf?

It has a little option, I believe it is the top one on the list on the right.

[China_hand_Joe]

Are you signed into google when you do it?

[achillesthegreat]

CT, you want me to get someone to try the the stance and guard - up on their toes, straight up, low hands?

[Mendoza]

Regarding the stance, let's not confuse a still photo with of the times with the way the fighters stood and put their guard up in the filmed fights. They are only somewhat similar. Many of the outside of the ring photo shots are glamour shots only.

A few of Fitz’s old skills would defiantly work in modern times. Fitz was a master at feinting to set up his shot. We can see this on film, Fitz feinted high to get Corbett’s guard high, and then struck like lighting to the body. The result was one of the most famous body punch KO’s of all time. Simply brilliant. I own a version of Fitz vs Corbett where the camera gives you a few seconds of close up action before the knockout. The speed and furry can be seen here. It was an eye opener.

The other part of Fitzsimmons that will work in modern times is the leverage and shifting he did when he punched. Fitzsimmons had whip cord like muscles and great driving force in his blows which was developed from manual labor. Delivering a hook in boxing is somewhat similar to swinging a baseball bat in my opinion. To hit your weight in baseball, you have to turn your hips / legs, and drive your body into the ball. In boxing, to add power to you hook, you need to do the same from your legs, hips, and shift your weight into the punch.

Finally, Fitzsimmons a master of the anatomy. He knew where to strike. The temple, chin, solar plexus, bottom ribs, neck, and heart are vulnerable areas for boxer. As I said before, many of the neck and hart punches are nearly extinct from the game.

As for the lower guard, I would not recommend it, unless the fighter doesn’t mind taking a punch to land one!

[cross_trainer]

CT, you want me to get someone to try the the stance and guard - up on their toes, straight up, low hands?

Not completely on their toes. The back foot should be flat on the floor, and the front foot raised on the toe--the opposite of the modern stance. Fitz has a good picture of the required stance in the book, and he describes exactly how you should stand and how you know what distance your feet should be from each other.

[mdmuir]

I would really like to help you out here Cross, but the only boxing I do is when I am boxing up returned merchandise for shipping back to the manufactuer. That is, when I am not cleaning out Porta Johns:)