Do Heavyweights punch harder today...

[Seamus]

than when they weighed 200 pounds or less?

Are the 1990's through 2000's heavyweights bigger hitters than those heavies from eras when the majority of contenders weighed less than 200 pounds?

[McGrain]

Your average man punching with perfect technique will punch harder against a target of corresponding height if he is heavier. Returns deminish.

[lefthook31]

Your average man punching with perfect technique will punch harder against a target of corresponding height if he is heavier. Returns deminish.
Was the technique more perfect in the 90's?

[McGrain]

Was the technique more perfect in the 90's?

No. But i'm presuming for the purposes of my answer that the fighters in question are using equal technique.

[Bill1234]

I don't really think so. I think you are born a puncher or not, and I think someone such as Jack Dempsey would have been a puncher no matter what. Same with someone such as Rocky Marciano and Joe Louis. I'm not convinced that once you reach a certain weight that size really has much of a big impact on power. Other wise someone such as Valuev or Butterbean would be the hardest hitters of all time, and we obviously know Valuev isn't, and Butterbean can punch, but not at an ATG level.

[Pusnuts]

Yeah I think modern top heavyweights must be bigger hitters, see some bigtime 1-punch KOs vs much bigger, stronger men and using more padded gloves.

I dont know what the glove size was in like Jack Dempsey's day but if Lennox Lewis or Tyson hit those guys with those little gloves people would get killed.

Dempsey vs Willard, Dempsey known as perhaps the biggest pre WW2 puncher, Willard keeps getting up, he wasnt actually stopped on a concussion, so I think if some of the modern guys hit Willard he would be near as spark out, Rahman/Lewis 2 styles.

[lefthook31]

No. But i'm presuming for the purposes of my answer that the fighters in question are using equal technique.
I wonder what the truth is? I get what your saying. If both guys punched the same exact way, but one guy had more weight behind him he would strike with more force, but I wonder if the technique was diminished in the 90's. A bigger taller guy may be more restricted than a taller thinner guy as far as leverage on his straight punches?? Atheletic guys like Lewis and Wlad would be an exception, but I wonder if a guy like Tony Tucker who wasnt a super heavy 6'5" guy could punch harder than say Mike Grant?

[Bill1234]

Yeah I think modern top heavyweights must be bigger hitters, see some bigtime 1-punch KOs vs bigger men and using more padded gloves.

I dont know what the glove size was in like Jack Dempsey's day but if Lennox Lewis or Tyson hit those guys with those little gloves people would get killed.

Usually around 8ozs. Now they usually use 10ozs, sometimes 8. There are plenty of big 1 punch KOs vs bigger men back then too, it is part of what makes the heavyweights so exciting.

[dezbeast]

I checked my Almanac, and to my surprise, the records for the Shot Put gold medalists from 1972 on has remained remarkably consistent. That suggests to me that weight is not everything when it comes to some things. Otherwise guys like Mantle would not have hit 500 plus foot homeruns. But weight is still a huge factor in punching power IMO. So on average I believe modern heavyweights do punch harder.

[Bummy Davis]

I don't really think so. I think you are born a puncher or not, and I think someone such as Jack Dempsey would have been a puncher no matter what. Same with someone such as Rocky Marciano and Joe Louis. I'm not convinced that once you reach a certain weight that size really has much of a big impact on power. Other wise someone such as Valuev or Butterbean would be the hardest hitters of all time, and we obviously know Valuev isn't, and Butterbean can punch, but not at an ATG level.


Good Post Bill, It s funny but I think the old fashioned way of training acually had a way of developing a fighters punch. Guys like Marciano Dempey and Louis were all great punchers and would have been today.

A friend of mine was in Germany and was in the gym with Vlad just before a fight and he was amazed by the way Vlad folded the heavy bag with a hook but then there are other big guys like Valuev that are really not hard punchers if they were 5"10 amd 195.

Punchers are rare. How many really pure punchers have we had over the last 10 decades. One thing stands out Joe Louis was the best of the short,compact combination and put perfect leverage into a punch.

Marciano had a deadly punch and although people do not call him speedy, he had a very fast and awkward delivery and could mess up a rythym fighters tempo. He also beat a lot of the quick reflex guys to the punch. Marciano also ruined more guys after a fight with him were never the same. Layne,Lasarza.Vingo,Charles, and he gave Moore a brutal Shellacking, even though Archie went on to a 38-4-2 record after he was never the same but the old Mongoose fought Ali 8 yrs later to his credit.

Dempsey, well there was no one like him up to his day and until Louis. If only he had been more active. I watch his fight against undefeated Firpo and you can see him in his prime and the raw power.

Foreman was crude and wideswinging but even though in prime he was 220lbs, he still had more raw power (clubbing) than many that came after him. Still if you watch his fight with also old5"7 Dwight Quawi, you can see the solid chinned quawi short stature gave him trouble.

Tyson...Mike had power when he was a 200 - minus heavyweight fighting for the Olympics but at -5"11 it did not matter his punch was natural power trained as a child by Cus to be champ. He beat many Big guys

6'5 Lennox Lewis beat a lot of good heavyweights. Lewis had power and size and used it well under the guidence of Stewart but the 2 men to go the distance with Lewis were 6 ft Levi Billups and 5"11 Ossie Ocasio

6'1 Mike Weaver a late starter who gained confidence in a title bout vs Holmes his record was 18-9 but after that fight showed excellent power, Koing BIG John Tate and Geriie Coetzee with rare late power.Weaver weighed 202 and Holmes 215 for that fight. Weaver weighed 207 to 6"4 Big John Tate 232 but destroyed him forever in that fight. Weaver weighed 210 to 6"3 Coetzee's 226lbs

There have been others like Satterfield 175lbs who KO'd big Heavys like Bob Baker and Cleveland Williams and Dropped and Beat Nino Valdez amoung others

210lb Earnie Shavers who Ko'd Norton but had Holmes,Mercado,Lyle down before losing by KO and others hurt in fights. He Ko's a 7-3 Jimmy Young but the rematch was different

Max Baer was also a heavy puncher Killed 2 men in the Ring although one died in his next fight most felt it was Max's right hand that did the lingering damage.

Joe Walcott was a boxer and did not look for the KO but he had pinpoint punching power and could level you with one punch. He had Louis down 4 times, Marciano down once and KO'd Charles with one of the most brutal Ko's ever

[PetethePrince]

I always find it funny when people talk about superheavyweights and big 250+ pound guys punching harder. Figure this out then.

Shavers fought Lyle and weighed about 206 pound. Lyle was a 212 pound guy. Foreman was mid 220's when he fought the 216 pound Lyle. Lyle says Shavers was the hardest he been hit. "Definitely" harder than Foreman. Most look at Shavers as the hardest hitter of all time. Guys like Dempsey and Marciano that weigh mid 180's to around 190 could not possibly hit as hard as these 200-220 or even 240-260 pound men.

Now, Holyfield fights Foreman. Out of all the punches Holyfield fought he claimed the hardest he ever got hit was when he faced Foreman. Foreman was a 255 pound man. Most here don't subscribe to the idea that old Foreman hit harder than young Foreman. So, the biggest puncher of the 70's was probably the biggest and hardest hitter of the 90's. According to Holyfield, who took clean shots from Lewis, Tyson, Foreman, and sparred with Tua.

You figure it out. Once you get 180+ pounds weight doesn't seem essential when talking about punching power. The 205 pound Earnie Shavers definitely hit harder than some of the 240+ pound HWs of the likes of Lennox Lewis, Sam Peters, Wladimir, and Sanders. Shavers was really a skinny muscle guy around the mid 70's, but he hit like a ton of bricks.

Next to Shavers, Ali said the hardest he got hit was against Joe Frazier. This should tell you most the story.

[Bummy Davis]

I forgot Frazier and his Ko's over 6"3 Mathis,6"4 Manual Ramos, Ellis, and UD over 6'2 1/2 Ali

[Boxed Ears]

This has me thinking about Holyfield. To me, when he bulked up to rumble with the big boys, it wasn't just that his punches didn't have as big an effect with bigger guys but that the unnecessary bulk made him a less free puncher. His CW weight was his natural weight and he'd have been about the same on the scales as a Demspey, Tunney, Louis, Marciano, etc. I'm not too sure it helps or hurts. So many of today's guys don't strike me as being naturally that much bigger, just unnaturally bulked up and/or plain old fat. Chagaev? This guy has come in at 235 before and I think if he were at his best, he'd be maybe 205, 210 somewhere. Same goes for Eddie Chambers and the like. Look how much more natural he seemed in his last with the extra pounds trimmed off.

[Pusnuts]

Great points and probably a top 200lber is more athletic and able to get his body into the shot quickly than can a physically stronger 240lb.
On gloves, I wonder if unlike modern ones that maybe they could bent out of shape and that the stuffing could move especially if used by someone with Dempsey's power, so when he actually hit blokes, the padding wasnt as good as modern ones.

[PetethePrince]

Great points and probably a top 200lber is more athletic and able to get his body into the shot quickly than can a physically stronger 240lb.
On gloves, I wonder if unlike modern ones that maybe they could bent out of shape and that the stuffing could move especially if used by someone with Dempsey's power, so when he actually hit blokes, the padding wasnt as good as modern ones.

That's another good point when addressing the old time fighters. So, it's possible that there power might be a tad fabled. In the end they were great punches. From the 50's onward, I think we see a better comparison. Has there really been a harder puncher since Shavers? Maybe, but not of that caliber to be exposed or seen. Is it possible the 255 pound Foreman hit harder than the 70's version... I suppose.

[anarci]

I always find it funny when people talk about superheavyweights and big 250+ pound guys punching harder. Figure this out then.

Shavers fought Lyle and weighed about 206 pound. Lyle was a 212 pound guy. Foreman was mid 220's when he fought the 216 pound Lyle. Lyle says Shavers was the hardest he been hit. "Definitely" harder than Foreman. Most look at Shavers as the hardest hitter of all time. Guys like Dempsey and Marciano that weigh mid 180's to around 190 could not possibly hit as hard as these 200-220 or even 240-260 pound men.

Now, Holyfield fights Foreman. Out of all the punches Holyfield fought he claimed the hardest he ever got hit was when he faced Foreman. Foreman was a 255 pound man. Most here don't subscribe to the idea that old Foreman hit harder than young Foreman. So, the biggest puncher of the 70's was probably the biggest and hardest hitter of the 90's. According to Holyfield, who took clean shots from Lewis, Tyson, Foreman, and sparred with Tua.

You figure it out. Once you get 180+ pounds weight doesn't seem essential when talking about punching power. The 205 pound Earnie Shavers definitely hit harder than some of the 240+ pound HWs of the likes of Lennox Lewis, Sam Peters, Wladimir, and Sanders. Shavers was really a skinny muscle guy around the mid 70's, but he hit like a ton of bricks.

Next to Shavers, Ali said the hardest he got hit was against Joe Frazier. This should tell you most the story.
I agree with your most of your post and ive always thought that 210 or 220 were kind of the cut off range for huge punching heavys. What i mean by that is after that weight i dont think that the huge man always has the advantage in great punching power. Although i think Wlad,Vitali,and Lewis are hard puncher i think the guys you mentioned hit harder. However the great heavys of the past 180-200 lb range dont hit as hard as the bigger heavys.
One thing though that i clearly remember Holyfield saying that no one ever hit him harder than Riddick Bowe, never heard him say that about Foreman. Maybe he said that back then after their fight,which was before he fought Bowe. Not to say Bowe actually hit harder than Foreman(although maybe as hard as an old george) Just saying that he connected on Holy harder since he was the more fluid puncher than an older George he had more connects on him.
I also think it is evident just looking back at their fights that Bowe hurt Holy more serious and more often than Big George did.

[Boilermaker]

I think that it is more likely than not that on a whole, todays punchers have more strength and power than the smaller older punchers. I think that the massive hitters like say Dempsey are probably about on par with say a Tua or a Tyson.

BUt common sense suggests that since such a large portion of todays training methods are about improving strength and power, this part of a fighter is what will be improved more. Particularly when guys are big to start with. If todays fighters trained for stamina or speed predominantly (and more so than the older fighters) then it would stand to reason that they would be faster and fitter on the whole.

[Pusnuts]

It seems from the little oldtime stuff I know that heavyweights got beaten up and bloodied more, and bones broken (in Willard's case) , whereas the 1-punch KOs where not as correspondingly high, if thats true (big IF) then that suggests to me thats its because the gloves werent as well-padded as today.

Not trying to get too gory or anything but just curious because you see the fearsome punching Dempsey break bones on Willard but he just keeps getting up, whereas its hard to see anyone getting up from the likes of a perfect Lewis right-hand or Tua left-hook.

[Seamus]

Where, pray-tell, are the 190 lb KO artists taking out heavyweights today?

[TIGEREDGE]

This has me thinking about Holyfield. To me, when he bulked up to rumble with the big boys, it wasn't just that his punches didn't have as big an effect with bigger guys but that the unnecessary bulk made him a less free puncher. His CW weight was his natural weight and he'd have been about the same on the scales as a Demspey, Tunney, Louis, Marciano, etc. I'm not too sure it helps or hurts. So many of today's guys don't strike me as being naturally that much bigger, just unnaturally bulked up and/or plain old fat. Chagaev? This guy has come in at 235 before and I think if he were at his best, he'd be maybe 205, 210 somewhere. Same goes for Eddie Chambers and the like. Look how much more natural he seemed in his last with the extra pounds trimmed off.

great points mate but your wrong about holyfiled. he never gained any bulk. he gained pure muslce without his body composition changing

your right about a lot of these guys being pure juiced up or just fat bastards

[dezbeast]

Where, pray-tell, are the 190 lb KO artists taking out heavyweights today?

I think the more reasonable task would be to name the lightest good to great KO artists in the heavyweight division today.

[PetethePrince]

I agree with your most of your post and ive always thought that 210 or 220 were kind of the cut off range for huge punching heavys. What i mean by that is after that weight i dont think that the huge man always has the advantage in great punching power. Although i think Wlad,Vitali,and Lewis are hard puncher i think the guys you mentioned hit harder. However the great heavys of the past 180-200 lb range dont hit as hard as the bigger heavys.
One thing though that i clearly remember Holyfield saying that no one ever hit him harder than Riddick Bowe, never heard him say that about Foreman. Maybe he said that back then after their fight,which was before he fought Bowe. Not to say Bowe actually hit harder than Foreman(although maybe as hard as an old george) Just saying that he connected on Holy harder since he was the more fluid puncher than an older George he had more connects on him.
I also think it is evident just looking back at their fights that Bowe hurt Holy more serious and more often than Big George did.

No, he said it on Foreman's ESPN Ringside. It was an archive clip with him bald and seeming to be pretty recent (I would said around 2004).

He wasn't hurt most by Foreman. Bowe clearly hurt him more. But he said the hardest punch he had ever been hit with was from Foreman. He said something like, "He had a lot of power. He hit me with the hardest punch I've ever got hit with. It didn't knock me down, but it stunned me."

Bowe obviously didn't have no where near the punching power of Foreman, so this makes sense.

Since you agree with me regarding the 210-220 pounders. To me, it shows that the 180+ pound guys power aren't fabled.

[PetethePrince]

great points mate but your wrong about holyfiled. he never gained any bulk. he gained pure muslce without his body composition changing

your right about a lot of these guys being pure juiced up or just fat bastards

Gaining pure muscle is still bulking...

[PetethePrince]

Where, pray-tell, are the 190 lb KO artists taking out heavyweights today?

Probably the NBA/NFL.

[anarci]

Probably the NBA/NFL. Or Prison! A great athelete doesnt always make a great fighter. Lots of good fighters get lost to the streets and prisons.

[Seamus]

Probably the NBA/NFL.

I don't buy this. First of all, did the great heavies of the 70's and 80's that stayed in boxing deny the NFL or NBA or potentially great players? Joe Frazier, Ali, Holmes, Mike Tyson... based on anecdotal evidence, none ever showed a lick of talent in regards to the skills it takes to achieve in those sports.

Secondly, there just aren't that many 180 pound players in either league. Are we to assume that somewhere there is a defensive back who is denying boxing of some precocious talent? Dubious, at best.

My point is the skillsets just don't over-lap very much.

[Pusnuts]

Exactly, where are the 190lb NBA players with a boxer's build? Might be a fair few in NFL or college football though.
A few baseballers might be athletic enough too, they obviously all seem to have the coordination and shoulder power

[anarci]

Exactly, where are the 190lb NBA players with a boxer's build? Might be a fair few in NFL or college football though.
A few baseballers might be athletic enough too, they obviously all seem to have the coordination and shoulder power
Dont want to get off the subject here but Iverson has always struck me as a guy with a boxers built, great speed,tenacity,and not a team player which means he might have liked boxing. He would probably have been a MW to LH though.

But anyways i feel there are alot more potential champs in the prison system or gangs than there is in pro sports.

[PowerPuncher]

I checked my Almanac, and to my surprise, the records for the Shot Put gold medalists from 1972 on has remained remarkably consistent. That suggests to me that weight is not everything when it comes to some things. Otherwise guys like Mantle would not have hit 500 plus foot homeruns. But weight is still a huge factor in punching power IMO. So on average I believe modern heavyweights do punch harder.

Allot of steroids going on in the shot put from the 70s-80s that they cant get away with today due to better testing

[bodhi]

Yeah I think modern top heavyweights must be bigger hitters, see some bigtime 1-punch KOs vs much bigger, stronger men and using more padded gloves.

I dont know what the glove size was in like Jack Dempsey's day but if Lennox Lewis or Tyson hit those guys with those little gloves people would get killed.

Dempsey vs Willard, Dempsey known as perhaps the biggest pre WW2 puncher, Willard keeps getting up, he wasnt actually stopped on a concussion, so I think if some of the modern guys hit Willard he would be near as spark out, Rahman/Lewis 2 styles.

No, they would not. Small gloves do not mean better one punch power. Quite the opposite. With smaller gloves punches to the head get less damaging while punches to the torso get more damaging. That´s why the bareknuckle and early gloved boxers fought mostly with low guards. Small gloves do more damage in terms of cuts and broken bones - noses, cheekbones and fingers/hands - but not in term of one punch KOs. If anything one punch KOs should have increased with more padding since it adds more weight to the gloves- also I suppose there are diminishing returns.

On the subject:
Yeah, I think weight does play its part when it comes to punching power- if someone can deliver it. But I think there are diminishing returns. I think it starts around 180 pounds were weight get´s less and less important and then from around 210/220 pounds more weight doesn´t help your punching power anymore.

[dezbeast]

Allot of steroids going on in the shot put from the 70s-80s that they cant get away with today due to better testing

You know I suspected that as a possible reason. Thanks for pointing that out.

[turpinr]

Where, pray-tell, are the 190 lb KO artists taking out heavyweights today?:good:good yeah,where:lol:

[PowerPuncher]

The 00s havent been a great generation but still has its share of seriously big hitters. Not all the bigger men are big punchers. But Wlad, Tua, Briggs, Rahman, Haye, Brewster, Maskaev are very big punchers aided by their size and resistannce training. Virchis and Danny Williams while not being top class hit like sledge hammers. Despite it being a weak era not many eras have a collection of hitters like that

The 90s HWs have the biggest collection of big punchers of any decade, with Lewis, Tyson, Bruno, Rudduck, Tua, McCall, Bowe, Morrison, Hide, Maskaev, Briggs. Size is certainly a reason for that generation being the biggest hitters

[The Mongoose]

No, they would not. Small gloves do not mean better one punch power. Quite the opposite. With smaller gloves punches to the head get less damaging while punches to the torso get more damaging. That´s why the bareknuckle and early gloved boxers fought mostly with low guards. Small gloves do more damage in terms of cuts and broken bones - noses, cheekbones and fingers/hands - but not in term of one punch KOs. If anything one punch KOs should have increased with more padding since it adds more weight to the gloves- also I suppose there are diminishing returns.


Yes, some actual testing on the subject has concluded that bigger modern boxing gloves actually produce more concussive blows.

[Bokaj]

No, they would not. Small gloves do not mean better one punch power. Quite the opposite. With smaller gloves punches to the head get less damaging while punches to the torso get more damaging.

You've watched any MMA? The punches have much more effect than in boxing even though they don't hit as hard as boxers. One clean punch and it's usually nighty nigth.

[McGrain]

You've watched any MMA? The punches have much more effect than in boxing even though they don't hit as hard as boxers. One clean punch and it's usually nighty nigth.


I don't watch a lot of MMA but I'd say this is primarily because the puncher is allowed to land on top of his victim and punch him repeatedly in the face. There is nowhere for the wounded man to hide.

A knee is out, obviously.

There is no referee's count.

Clinching is extremely dangerous.

[bodhi]

You've watched any MMA? The punches have much more effect than in boxing even though they don't hit as hard as boxers. One clean punch and it's usually nighty nigth.

MMA in Germany is about to non-existent. There were shows on TV for a while but they got cancelled due to the few people watching it as far as I know.

MMA is not comparable to boxing though. Different sport, different rules. Let two MMA fighters fight under boxing rules with their gloves. Than it would be comparable.

[McGrain]

MMA in Germany is about to non-existent. There were shows on TV for a while but they got cancelled due to the few people watching it as far as I know.


...this is a new emotion....the desire to move to Germany...

[bodhi]

...this is a new emotion....the desire to move to Germany...

Well, other than our fellow Europeans on the islands and the Americans, we Germans are civilized. We prefer the high art of fist-fencing over this primitive, brutal "sport" that is MMA :lol:

[Bokaj]

MMA is not comparable to boxing though. Different sport, different rules. Let two MMA fighters fight under boxing rules with their gloves. Than it would be comparable.

I'm only talking about the aspect of punches landed on the chin. It's obvious that they have more impact with those small gloves. Due to poorer technique they don't get the same leverage a pro bzoer would, but even so one clean punch often means lights out.

This is what happens when a pro boxer lands a clean punch: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[lefthook31]

Awesome never saw that fight with Mercer

[mr. magoo]

Power really comes from technique more so than mere size and strength... A guy who plants his feet into the ground and throws his body weight into a punch is going to hit several times harder than a man who throws a shot without any grounding. Sure, size has something to do with it, as a boxing heavyweight like Muhammad Ali hits harder than a much smaller Manny Pac.. But if we take two guys who are at least within the same ball park of size, the one who has a puncher's technique is going to hit harder, even if his opponent has a size advantage ( within reason. )

[MattMattMatt]

No, they would not. Small gloves do not mean better one punch power. Quite the opposite. With smaller gloves punches to the head get less damaging while punches to the torso get more damaging. That´s why the bareknuckle and early gloved boxers fought mostly with low guards. Small gloves do more damage in terms of cuts and broken bones - noses, cheekbones and fingers/hands - but not in term of one punch KOs. If anything one punch KOs should have increased with more padding since it adds more weight to the gloves- also I suppose there are diminishing returns.


Have you been hit with a small glove and big glove to compare? I have, and it definitely seemed that the smaller glove did
more damage (same person using the two types). Gloves were more likely introduced in boxing to protext the fighters hands rather than the fighters heads. Big punchers in boxing almost always try and negotiate the smallest gloves they can. This is either due to more effective power and/or increased ability to land..

[MattMattMatt]

Yes, some actual testing on the subject has concluded that bigger modern boxing gloves actually produce more concussive blows.

I remember hearing that, but having been hit by both I think it's bullshit. Or at the very least it is much easier to land with a smaller glove (smaller defence to attack and smaller glove to hit through holes) so KOs would be much more common.

[lefthook31]

Have you been hit with a small glove and big glove to compare? I have and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the smaller glove does way more damage. Gloves were more likely introduced in boxing to protext the fighters hands rather than the fighters heads. Ever wonder why big punchers in boxing always try and negotiate the smallest gloves they can?
Yeah I agree. The Reyes gloves are called punchers gloves for a reason. They have less padding in the striking areas.
That being said, its not always true that big punchers go for the smaller gloves, as some fighters like the bigger more padded gloves such as everlast and Grant for blocking purposes.

[KTFO]

No doubt Roid gets the job done.

[McGrain]

Ever wonder why big punchers in boxing always try and negotiate the smallest gloves they can?


I've always presumed it was because they were better on offense and small gloves favour a good defence?

[lefthook31]

I've always presumed it was because they were better on offense and small gloves favour a good defence?
Opposite really. Guys like Evander Holyfield and Roy Jones liked to use Grant gloves because of the extra padding around the hand that allowed them to soften blows and block punches. Mayweather uses Winning gloves because of his brittle hands.
Reyes are considered punchers gloves
Winning, Everlast, and Grant all have more padding than Reyes, although the overall weight is the same.

[McGrain]

Opposite really. Guys like Evander Holyfield and Roy Jones liked to use Grant gloves because of the extra padding around the hand that allowed them to soften blows and block punches.


You've never heard of a heavy puncher trying to arrange the smallest gloves possible?

[lefthook31]

You've never heard of a heavy puncher trying to arrange the smallest gloves possible?
Yes but not always as I said. LEnnox Lewis loved the Reyes gloves because he didnt block punches and liked to get the most of his power. I believe he made Tyson wear them in their fight. Tyson preferred Everlast which was less of a punchers glove.

[RonnieHornschuh]

It is pretty obvious to me that, let's say, David Tua has more punching power than Marciano or Dempsey. He has super strong legs and throws his whole 230-240 pounds into his punches, which results in perfect leverage. If Tua had hit Willard as often as Dempsey did, he would be dead.

[McGrain]

Yes but not always as I said. LEnnox Lewis loved the Reyes gloves because he didnt block punches and liked to get the most of his power. I believe he made Tyson wear them in their fight. Tyson preferred Everlast which was less of a punchers glove.

:lol:

Imagine making Tyson wear Reyes.

I hear you though, it's interesting, definitely. I did not know that about Reyes, and that's got to be bang on about why Lewis liked them.

[lefthook31]

:lol:

Imagine making Tyson wear Reyes.

I hear you though, it's interesting, definitely. I did not know that about Reyes, and that's got to be bang on about why Lewis liked them.
Yeah I think it was more of a psychological thing because Tyson always wore Everlast through his entire career, plus he definitely used his gloves more as a blocking tool more in his comeback career as opposed to head movement.
Heres a little write up on comparing the two

Differences Between Boxing Gloves



For example, Cleto Reyes boxing gloves are known as punchers’ gloves. They are small and compact, and more of the weight is distributed to the wrist as opposed to over the hand. The result is what many people believe is a harder, more dangerous punch. Fighter’s known for their punching power may use Cleto Reyes boxing gloves to exploit their advantage even more. Conversely, fighters without much power may turn to a pair of Cleto Reyes professional fighting gloves to try to improve or eliminate their weakness.
Buy Cleto Reyes gloves ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) here.
On the far end of the spectrum from Cleto Reyes are Grant boxing gloves. Grant boxing gloves appear larger and cushier than most other models and brands. More of the weight is placed into the hand as opposed to the wrist, offering increased protection of a fighter’s hands. Fighters who have been known to break their hands often or who are trying to prevent that from happening love Grant gloves for the added protection. Additionally, due to their fluffier shape, Grant gloves can be a defensive tool, helping a fighter to block and deflect more of his opponent’s shots.
Buy Grant gloves ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) here.
Differences between boxing gloves are not always as easy to spot. As mentioned, Cleto Reyes and Grant are on the complete opposite sides of the equation. In the middle, you’ll find brands such as Everlast, Title, Ringside and TKO that provide well rounded gloves that are used by many different fighters and fighting styles.

[Seamus]

It is pretty obvious to me that, let's say, David Tua has more punching power than Marciano or Dempsey. He has super strong legs and throws his whole 230-240 pounds into his punches, which results in perfect leverage. If Tua had hit Willard as often as Dempsey did, he would be dead.

Blasphemy!

But true.

[McGrain]

Blasphemy? You would really expect the majority to contradict that statement Seamus?

[bodhi]

Have you been hit with a small glove and big glove to compare? I have, and it definitely seemed that the smaller glove did
more damage (same person using the two types). Gloves were more likely introduced in boxing to protext the fighters hands rather than the fighters heads. Big punchers in boxing almost always try and negotiate the smallest gloves they can. This is either due to more effective power and/or increased ability to land..

Well, well, well, please read again what I wrote! Of course smaller or no gloves will do more damage to both the opponents face and your own hand. It will hurt more and you are more likely to hurt yourself. But a KO is more likely to happen with bigger gloves than smaller ones - although there are some diminishing returns it seems, when he size of the gloves take away too much speed for example.

[The Mongoose]

I remember hearing that, but having been hit by both I think it's bullshit. Or at the very least it is much easier to land with a smaller glove (smaller defence to attack and smaller glove to hit through holes) so KOs would be much more common.

Sorry, to many variables to consider your personal experience over a controlled experiment. It is true that smaller gloves of yesterday did inflict more facial injuries.

[Bokaj]

Sorry, to many variables to consider your personal experience over a controlled experiment. It is true that smaller gloves of yesterday did inflict more facial injuries.

What experiment is this? That shows that more padding somehow increases the force? This seems not only physically impossible to me, but it contradicts my own experience as well as what I've seen.

I repeat, the blows have much more effect in UFC with their small gloves, even though they punch with less leverage and power than boxers due to inferior technique.

Pro boxers having a go at each other with those gloves...

[Bokaj]

As for the thread, HWs do punch harder today on average. I don't think that Marciano or Louis was up there with Lewis, Tyson, Ruddock etc for pure power. Many of the guys they fought would be LHWs with today's standards and very few would be HWs. Let Wlad loose in the LHW and CW division and his already staunch KO record would start to look something ridicolous.

[BOGART]

I have little doubt that today's heavyweights hit harder than past ones. Guys today are much bigger than in the past and on the average bigger guys are going to hit harder. Welterweights hit harder than lightweights, middleweights harder than welterweights, and so on. So I don't know why that rule is going to stop when comparing heavyweights to cruiserweights(the division most past heavyweights would be at today).

[BOGART]

As for the thread, HWs do punch harder today on average. I don't think that Marciano or Louis was up there with Lewis, Tyson, Ruddock etc for pure power. Many of the guys they fought would be LHWs with today's standards and very few would be HWs. Let Wlad loose in the LHW and CW division and his already staunch KO record would start to look something ridicolous.


I agree 100% with this.

[mcvey]

than when they weighed 200 pounds or less?

Are the 1990's through 2000's heavyweights bigger hitters than those heavies from eras when the majority of contenders weighed less than 200 pounds?

Some do ,some don't.

Valuev and Mcline for example are poor punchers ,per body mass.
Smaller men like Tua have considerably more power.
Guys like Dempsey Langford, Louis, Satterfield , back to Sullivan were naturally big hitters.
In a ring record book they rate the top 10 punchers, you have heavily muscled types and string bean bangers too, power has been theorized over and over, but no one has satisfactorily explained why some guys bang harder than others to me.

[janitor]

Sorry, to many variables to consider your personal experience over a controlled experiment. It is true that smaller gloves of yesterday did inflict more facial injuries.

I have no doubt that the smaller gloves inflicted more severe facial injuries but they did not produce more kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is a fuction of mass and velocity and is only going to decrease with the introduction of a lighter glove. The impact of the blow upon the brain does not diminuish when you use a smaller glove.

Now under London Prize Ring rules quick knockouts were virtualy nonexistent. A lot of that was due top the fact that you needed to put your oponent down for 30 seconds but people were not exactly getting knocked cold.

[bodhi]

I have little doubt that today's heavyweights hit harder than past ones. Guys today are much bigger than in the past and on the average bigger guys are going to hit harder. Welterweights hit harder than lightweights, middleweights harder than welterweights, and so on. So I don't know why that rule is going to stop when comparing heavyweights to cruiserweights(the division most past heavyweights would be at today).

Because from a certain point - in my oppinion it starts around 180 pounds and than drops even further at around 220 pounds - weight doesn't help your punching power anymore. With more weight you lose speed. Less speed, less kinetic energy, less power.

[Bokaj]

I have no doubt that the smaller gloves inflicted more severe facial injuries but they did not produce more kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is a fuction of mass and velocity and is only going to decrease with the introduction of a lighter glove. The impact of the blow upon the brain does not diminuish when you use a smaller glove.

The kinetic energy cannot possible decrease since a glove, no matter how big, doesn't add any energy. It will be unchanged. But extra padding will lessen the amount of energy transmitted upon impact due to the friction when the padding contracts. It's like hitting someone who have thick clothes on to the body. Part of the energy of the blow will be absorbed by the padding of the clothes.

[Bokaj]

Because from a certain point - in my oppinion it starts around 180 pounds and than drops even further at around 220 pounds - weight doesn't help your punching power anymore. With more weight you lose speed. Less speed, less kinetic energy, less power.

There are decreasing returns, but not non-existant returns over 180. Tyson had faster hands than Louis, but was 20 lbs heavier and stockier built. Hence, more power. Lewis and Wlad both have/had faster hands than many many fighters in the 180-200 range, but are of course much bigger. Their hands are not slower than Marciano's, rather the other way around, but they're much bigger, so how can they not hit harder?

[McGrain]

The kinetic energy cannot possible decrease since a glove, no matter how big, doesn't add any energy. It will be unchanged. But extra padding will lessen the amount of energy transmitted upon impact due to the friction when the padding contracts. It's like hitting someone who have thick clothes on to the body. Part of the energy of the blow will be absorbed by the padding of the clothes.

Yeah, there is no denying that SOME of the impact is going to be absorbed by the padding.

Enough to prevent the impact affecting the brain in the normal way? Nope. I would be surprised if there were more than half a dozen occasions in the history of boxing where that was the case, the incriment is so small.

Think of pressure per-square inch of pressure being delivered and the weight in ounces of the gloves.

[Bokaj]

Yeah, there is no denying that SOME of the impact is going to be absorbed by the padding.

Enough to prevent the impact affecting the brain in the normal way? Nope. I would be surprised if there were more than half a dozen occasions in the history of boxing where that was the case, the incriment is so small.

Think of pressure per-square inch of pressure being delivered and the weight in ounces of the gloves.

Yes, I think the padding decreases the impact enough to make a difference. Also, bigger gloves means that the impact will be distributed over a larger area, thereby decreasing pressure per-square inch even more.

Gloves are in a way the opposite to brass knuckles. Brass knuckles decrease the "padding" that is given even by bones and they concentrate the impact to a smaller area.

[Bill1234]

It is pretty obvious to me that, let's say, David Tua has more punching power than Marciano or Dempsey. He has super strong legs and throws his whole 230-240 pounds into his punches, which results in perfect leverage. If Tua had hit Willard as often as Dempsey did, he would be dead.

I'm not sure, Dempsey was never much of a 1 punch KO guy whereas Marciano was. Marciano put the 6'4 Carmine Vingo into a coma with 1 punch, and took out the 6'1 Rex Layne with 1 punch, both were in the early stages of the fight.

[BlueBoxing]

Ask Joe Louis.

[BOGART]

Because from a certain point - in my oppinion it starts around 180 pounds and than drops even further at around 220 pounds - weight doesn't help your punching power anymore. With more weight you lose speed. Less speed, less kinetic energy, less power.


But what is so magical about 180? 180 would put you in the lightheavyweigt-cruiserweight range today. I doubt you would make the argument that a middleweight would hit harder than them, even though the middleweight would likely have more handspeed. People have no problem with bigger guys hitting harder than smaller guys in the lower divisions, not until it comes to past vs modern heavyweights do they take a different stance.

[janitor]

[quote=Bokaj;5822584]The kinetic energy cannot possible decrease since a glove, no matter how big, doesn't add any energy. It will be unchanged.

Not true.

A heavier glove will produce more kinetic energy if it can be thrown at the same velocity as a lighter glove because it has greater mass.

But extra padding will lessen the amount of energy transmitted upon impact due to the friction when the padding contracts. It's like hitting someone who have thick clothes on to the body. Part of the energy of the blow will be absorbed by the padding of the clothes.

It might limit the surface damage, and change the way in which the kinetic energy is imparted, but it will not reduce the kinetic energy with wich the blow lands.

[McGrain]

It might limit the surface damage, and change the way in which the kinetic energy is imparted, but it will not reduce the kinetic energy with wich the blow lands.


Or the way that energy affects the brain in a shot which is concussive.

Padding is about protecting the eyes etc., not limiting the concussive power of the punches involved.

There is no way gloves that would result in a more protracted beating would be permitted in the sport.

[janitor]

Or the way that energy affects the brain in a shot which is concussive.

Padding is about protecting the eyes etc., not limiting the concussive power of the punches involved.

There is no way gloves that would result in a more protracted beating would be permitted in the sport.

You can probably shake sombodys brain as much with a feather pillow as you can with a baseball bat.

[The Mongoose]

What experiment is this? That shows that more padding somehow increases the force? This seems not only physically impossible to me, but it contradicts my own experience as well as what I've seen.

I repeat, the blows have much more effect in UFC with their small gloves, even though they punch with less leverage and power than boxers due to inferior technique.

Pro boxers having a go at each other with those gloves...


There was a recent study on the force of bare knuckles, mma gloves, and boxing gloves. I will link to the video a littl e later if I have time.

Also, the subject of modern boxing gloves's supposed saftey has also been extensively researched beyond that:


From wikipedia:



Boxing gloves are cushioned gloves that fighters wear on their hands during boxing matches. The term also refers to gloves used in training, though these often differ from competition gloves. Modern boxing gloves were developed to protect the hands of the striker during a bout (as opposed to the ancient cestus, developed as a weapon), though specialised gloves are now available for competitions, sparring practice and other types of training. The use of modern boxing gloves typically results in fewer superficial facial injuries but greater brain damage to participants[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-The_Boxing_Debate.2C_BMJ-0)[2] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Dillner.2C_1993-1).

The impact of gloves on the injuries caused during a fight is a controversial issue. Most reputable studies[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-The_Boxing_Debate.2C_BMJ-0)[2] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Dillner.2C_1993-1) have shown that gloved fights cause more severe and more long-term brain and eye injuries than bare-knuckle fights, although the incidence of superficial injuries (cuts, bruising) is reducedThe impact of gloves on the injuries caused during a fight is a controversial issue. Most reputable studies[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-The_Boxing_Debate.2C_BMJ-0)[2] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Dillner.2C_1993-1) have shown that gloved fights cause more severe and more long-term brain and eye injuries than bare-knuckle fights, although the incidence of superficial injuries (cuts, bruising) is reduced

[PetethePrince]

I don't buy this. First of all, did the great heavies of the 70's and 80's that stayed in boxing deny the NFL or NBA or potentially great players? Joe Frazier, Ali, Holmes, Mike Tyson... based on anecdotal evidence, none ever showed a lick of talent in regards to the skills it takes to achieve in those sports.

Who knows, they didn't go that route. Nobody just picks up the basketball and can shoot as if he's been playing for years. And the reverse is different, as height is even more essential in the NBA at least.

Also, who is to say guys like Tyson or Frazier couldn't be football players? Tyson had unbelievable genetics.

Secondly, there just aren't that many 180 pound players in either league. Are we to assume that somewhere there is a defensive back who is denying boxing of some precocious talent? Dubious, at best.What are you on about? People are just born with the ability to be heavyweight champion. Obviously you need athletic ability (Which all these athletes have) and obviously some abilities, albeit natural and skill come along easier. If you have the hand-speed and power, that's a lot in and of it self. Plenty of these guys probably have this. How they are denying this natural talent? You just don't wake as Ali or Tyson. Boxing is dangerous for the long-hall, you make less money, and it's not anywhere near as popular.

NBA, NFL... or boxing. Easy choice for me.

The 180 pound guy are obviously going to be the cruiserweights, and light-heavies. I'm talking the big heavyweights, though.

My point is the skillsets just don't over-lap very much.Nonsense, as if these athletes parents just evaluated their kids talents and saw what they were naturally good at. They're all excellent athletes. If they had their skills honed in a different sport then I believe some have success in boxing. Atlas says basketball background is the best sport to help your boxing.

I guess all the American athletes evaporated from the HW scene in just one big coincidence. Or was it the break down of all those amateur programs? Still helps my point.

Americans have some of the best athletes. They are just not in boxing anymore, for the large part. That's something you can't deny.

2 Points.

1) Immigrants that came went to boxing. These are now the generally Latino fighters.

2) The amateur program isn't the same. American athletes are going toward the popular sports.

[Bokaj]

[quote]

Not true.

A heavier glove will produce more kinetic energy if it can be thrown at the same velocity as a lighter glove because it has greater mass.

For it to be thown with the same velocity the energy produced by the body must be higher. Since the glove doesn't affect the energy produced by the body, the extra weight of the glove lessens the velocity.

It might limit the surface damage, and change the way in which the kinetic energy is imparted, but it will not reduce the kinetic energy with wich the blow lands.

Yes, it will. Energy is "wasted" so to speak when the padding compresses. It's friction.

[Bokaj]

From wikipedia:



Boxing gloves are cushioned gloves ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) that fighters wear on their hands during boxing ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) matches. The term also refers to gloves used in training, though these often differ from competition gloves. Modern boxing gloves were developed to protect the hands of the striker during a bout (as opposed to the ancient cestus ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), developed as a weapon), though specialised gloves are now available for competitions, sparring practice and other types of training. The use of modern boxing gloves typically results in fewer superficial facial injuries but greater brain damage to participants[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-The_Boxing_Debate.2C_BMJ-0)[2] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Dillner.2C_1993-1).

The impact of gloves on the injuries caused during a fight is a controversial issue. Most reputable studies[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-The_Boxing_Debate.2C_BMJ-0)[2] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Dillner.2C_1993-1) have shown that gloved fights cause more severe and more long-term brain and eye injuries than bare-knuckle fights, although the incidence of superficial injuries (cuts, bruising) is reducedThe impact of gloves on the injuries caused during a fight is a controversial issue. Most reputable studies[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-The_Boxing_Debate.2C_BMJ-0)[2] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Dillner.2C_1993-1) have shown that gloved fights cause more severe and more long-term brain and eye injuries than bare-knuckle fights, although the incidence of superficial injuries (cuts, bruising) is reduced

This I fully believe, but it's a different thing altogether. The gloves make a single blow less concussive, thereby allowing for a fighter to stand up to more blows. This will lead to more lasting damage.

[janitor]

[quote=Bokaj;5823506][quote=janitor;5823162]

For it to be thown with the same velocity the energy produced by the body must be higher. Since the glove doesn't affect the energy produced by the body, the extra weight of the glove lessens the velocity.


Not necisarily.

If the velocity of the punch nis governed by neuromuscular considerations (I think it basicaly is) then the extra weight might be had without significant loss of velocity.

Yes, it will. Energy is "wasted" so to speak when the padding compresses. It's friction.

The energy is not "wasted" by any means.

Put an egg yolk into a jar of water.

You will not be able to rupture the yolk by striking the jar with a blunt object, unless you break the jar.

Shake the jar and you will rupture it easily.

[Bokaj]

There is no way gloves that would result in a more protracted beating would be permitted in the sport.

Things are not always rational. But there are two sides to this. Swapping boxing gloves for MMA gloves may well decrease long term brain damage, but it would probably mean more sudden deaths in the ring.

So there would then be a rise in fatal incidents receiving a lot of averse attention, but lesser Bowes, Ali, Frazier etc. The singular incidents always get more coverage and creates more opinion, so there is definitely a rationale in trying to primarily aim to avoid those.

[Bokaj]

Not necisarily.

If the velocity of the punch nis governed by neuromuscular considerations (I think it basicaly is) then the extra weight might be had without significant loss of velocity.

No. The energy is produced by the body's muscles. A dead object cannnot increase this energy.



The energy is not "wasted" by any means.

Put an egg yolk into a jar of water.

You will not be able to rupture the yolk by striking the jar with a blunt object, unless you break the jar.

Shake the jar and you will rupture it easily.

Don't know what this is meant to prove. The energy is wasted. It's just like you punch someone to the body who has a heavy coat on. The coat will absorb some of the impact.

It takes energy to make the padding compress. That energy would otherwise be directly transmitted to the area that is struck. It is in that way wasted.

[McGrain]

Things are not always rational. But there are two sides to this. Swapping boxing gloves for MMA gloves may well decrease long term brain damage, but it would probably mean more sudden deaths in the ring.


I think i'm right in saying that, although we've been unlucky enough to incur deaths resulting from boxing injuries in the ring in the past two years, MMA has had none?

I think this claim is spurious.

[janitor]

[quote=Bokaj;5823615]No. The energy is produced by the body's muscles. A dead object cannnot increase this energy.


Sure it can.

All tools work on the principle of adding tacticaly shaped dead weght to the human arm.

The speed of a punch is determined primarily by reactions and extra weight might theoreticaly be added without a proportional reduction in velocity.


Don't know what this is meant to prove. The energy is wasted. It's just like you punch someone to the body who has a heavy coat on. The coat will absorb some of the impact.


Just because the coat absorbs the energy dosn't mean that it is wasted.

It is simply translated into another form.

The larger gloves essentialy shake the brain more.

Brain injuries were virtualy unknown in the bareknuckle era.

[Bokaj]

[quote]


Sure it can.

All tools work on the principle of adding tacticaly shaped dead weght to the human arm.

The speed of a punch is determined primarily by reactions and extra weight might theoreticaly be added without a proportional reduction in velocity.

But then you must at least have leverage as pendelum effect. A glove won't get you this. More to the point, it's easy to feel that a glove slows your hand down.

You can possibly in theory argue that a heavier glove will add energy to an arm swing since you get the pendelum effect there. And if you punch downwards gravity will help. But not in boxing punches.


Just because the coat absorbs the energy dosn't mean that it is wasted.

It is simply translated into another form.

The larger gloves essentialy shake the brain more.

Brain injuries were virtualy unknown in the bareknuckle era.

It doesn't diesappear, but it's wasted to the purpose. As I said energy goes to compress the padding. That energy won't scramble the brain.

Just as the blow won't do as much damage to your body if you have a heavy coat on.

[Bokaj]

I think i'm right in saying that, although we've been unlucky enough to incur deaths resulting from boxing injuries in the ring in the past two years, MMA has had none?

I think this claim is spurious.

What I can say for absolute certain is that it is easy to see how punches with MMA gloves have a more devastating effect.

[janitor]

[quote=Bokaj;5823974][quote=janitor;5823848]

But then you must at least have leverage as pendelum effect. A glove won't get you this. More to the point, it's easy to feel that a glove slows your hand down.


If you double the weight of the glove it will double the impact of the glove itself.

Will teh reduction in velocity be suficient to compensate for this?


It doesn't diesappear, but it's wasted to the purpose. As I said energy goes to compress the padding. That energuy won't scramble the brain.


Course it will.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Why do you think that brain injuries became more prevelant after gloves were introduced?

Why are rubber trucheons used for crowd control?

Why do you soak a rhino hide whip to make it softer?

[McGrain]

What I can say for absolute certain is that it is easy to see how punches with MMA gloves have a more devastating effect.


I don't really agree with you. Certianly i'd be very able to produce MMA taking flush punches from hitters and keeping their feet, boxers getting hit with flush punches and going down.

What can definitely be said is that most MMA KO's aren't tested in teh same way boxing KO's are, because more action follows the KD shot.

[Bokaj]

[quote]
[quote=Bokaj;5823974]

If you double the weight of the glove it will double the impact of the glove itself.

Will teh reduction in velocity be suficient to compensate for this?

I think so. I don't punch harder with bigger glows. Do you?



Course it will.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

And the reaction is the padding compressing. You must agree that this takes energy. From where does that come from?

Why do you think that brain injuries became more prevelant after gloves were introduced?

I adressed this in an earlier post. Also, bare knuckle fighters were obviously careful when punching to the head. A third factor is that brain damage wouldn't be discovered as often in the 19th century. There were no pet scans back then, so to speak.

[Bokaj]

I don't really agree with you. Certianly i'd be very able to produce MMA taking flush punches from hitters and keeping their feet, boxers getting hit with flush punches and going down.

What can definitely be said is that most MMA KO's aren't tested in teh same way boxing KO's are, because more action follows the KD shot.

For me it's plain to see from their reactions of one single punch.

Of course less padding and a smaller area of distribution will increase the effect of the blow. Can't really see why we're arguing this.

Wouldn't you object if your sparring partner wore boxing bag gloves instead of regular ones? I would and I know his blows would feel more as well.

I don't think anyone here would see it as an advantage to have bigger gloves than your opponent. There is a simple reason for that.

This is where I bow out. Don't think I can add more.

[Pusnuts]

People not infrequently killed in streetfights from a single bareknuckle punch, from non-boxers. Its happened here in NZ quite a lot where David Tua and Jimmy Thunder are kind of normal sized in places like South Auckland
How does Willard keep getting up if Dempsey if such an unsurpassed concussive puncher?

You can see with little MMA gloves where guys get poleaxed from 1 shot, Ray Mercer is a great example and also that Arlovski guy. Maybe the MMA fighters arent quite as used to taking headshots but even so, they drop hard compared to fights with boxing gloves.

[dezbeast]

I agree with janitor, though I'm more impressed with Bokaj's reasoning. When I had smaller gloves going up against someone, they didn't seem to be quite as effective at spinning the head as the bigger gloves. Like a spring type of effect or something.

[janitor]

[quote=Bokaj;5824059]
I think so. I don't punch harder with bigger glows. Do you?


I am sure that the smaller gloved hurt more and cause more surface damage but I am suggesting that they do not have the same impact on the brain.

And the reaction is the padding compressing. You must agree that this takes energy. From where does that come from?

The verry act of the padding comprssing over a large area in a short distance is what produces the torsional force.

There is a type of anti tank round that works by compressing against the side of the tank like a cow pat. It does not even penetrate the tanks armour but it liquifies the crew.

A medieval suit of armour will easily defeat any bladed weapon. Even a samurai sword which has a cutting edge of molecular thickness will bounce off it harmlessly causing little damage to the ocupant. On the other hand if we hit our medieaval knight with a length of 2X4 he is going down and out for the count. That is why knight on knight actions tended to involve the use of blunter instruments.

I adressed this in an earlier post. Also, bare knuckle fighters were obviously careful when punching to the head. A third factor is that brain damage wouldn't be discovered as often in the 19th century. There were no pet scans back then, so to speak.

Autopsies have been caried out on boxers for as long as the sport has existed. Based on my admitedly limited knowledge of the medical literature on this, I understand that brain injuries started croping up regularly after the introduction of gloves.

[McGrain]

Wouldn't you object if your sparring partner wore boxing bag gloves instead of regular ones?.


Of course; his blows would hurt more and would be more likely to cut. Unpadded gloves are much, much more likely to cause eye-damage which I would say is the secondary reason for the evolution of the glove, after hand damage.

[Squire]

Now, Holyfield fights Foreman. Out of all the punches Holyfield fought he claimed the hardest he ever got hit was when he faced Foreman. Foreman was a 255 pound man. Most here don't subscribe to the idea that old Foreman hit harder than young Foreman. So, the biggest puncher of the 70's was probably the biggest and hardest hitter of the 90's. According to Holyfield, who took clean shots from Lewis, Tyson, Foreman, and sparred with Tua.


You can't take fighters on their word all of the time though. Fighters like to emphasize their victories, and will often claim guys they beat were better than guys they lost to.

[The Mongoose]

This I fully believe, but it's a different thing altogether. The gloves make a single blow less concussive, thereby allowing for a fighter to stand up to more blows. This will lead to more lasting damage.


That's certainly a possible theory, but here's the video as promised:


Same impact between smaller mma gloves and boxing gloves. Padding does nothing but protect the skin from superficial wounds.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[PetethePrince]

You can't take fighters on their word all of the time though. Fighters like to emphasize their victories, and will often claim guys they beat were better than guys they lost to.

But he could've said Tyson. I understand your point but feel Holyfield has no reason to lie here... or just isn't.

[PetethePrince]

That's certainly a possible theory, but here's the video as promised:


Same impact between smaller mma gloves and boxing gloves. Padding does nothing but protect the skin from superficial wounds.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Yep, I saw this too. Mystifying to me at first.

[bodhi]

There are decreasing returns, but not non-existant returns over 180. Tyson had faster hands than Louis, but was 20 lbs heavier and stockier built. Hence, more power. Lewis and Wlad both have/had faster hands than many many fighters in the 180-200 range, but are of course much bigger. Their hands are not slower than Marciano's, rather the other way around, but they're much bigger, so how can they not hit harder?

Sorry, I don´t think Tyson had more power than Louis. He looked more spectacular but he didn´t have more power :bart

I never said Wlad and Lewis didn´t have more power than Marciano. What I said was that from around 180 pounds on and than again from 220 pounds on, more weight doesn´t do much more for power than from 112 to 160 does. Weight is influences power more in the lower weightclasses than in the higher ones and the higher the weight gets the less important it gets.


But what is so magical about 180? 180 would put you in the lightheavyweigt-cruiserweight range today. I doubt you would make the argument that a middleweight would hit harder than them, even though the middleweight would likely have more handspeed. People have no problem with bigger guys hitting harder than smaller guys in the lower divisions, not until it comes to past vs modern heavyweights do they take a different stance.

Read above. Why 180 and 220? I go by experience. I don´t see much difference in power from Marciano, Schmeling, Dempsey, Baer and Louis and these weigh roughly between 180 and 210. I also don´t think Tyson, Lewis and Wlad punched much harder.

An example the difference in power between a 200 pound Joe Louis and a 160 pound Julian Jackson is bigger than that between a 200 pound Joe Louis and a 240 pound Lennox Lewis.


I agree with janitor, though I'm more impressed with Bokaj's reasoning. When I had smaller gloves going up against someone, they didn't seem to be quite as effective at spinning the head as the bigger gloves. Like a spring type of effect or something.

But that spinning of the head is what makes you go down. A KO happens when the brain inside the head get´s rattled too hard and blacks out. More weight, more kinetic energy, more shaking. Of course there are diminishing returns and from a certain point the more weight of a glove will slow your velocity down too much so that it will lessen your kinetic energy. But in my oppinion today´s 8/10 ounce gloves are still in the range of increasing the kinetic energy.
I agree that punches from smaller gloves hurt more and are more likely to inflict serious injuries but bigger gloves are more likely to produce one punch knockouts.

[turpinr]

Sorry, I don´t think Tyson had more power than Louis. He looked more spectacular but he didn´t have more power :bart

I never said Wlad and Lewis didn´t have more power than Marciano. What I said was that from around 180 pounds on and than again from 220 pounds on, more weight doesn´t do much more for power than from 112 to 160 does. Weight is influences power more in the lower weightclasses than in the higher ones and the higher the weight gets the less important it gets.




Read above. Why 180 and 220? I go by experience. I don´t see much difference in power from Marciano, Schmeling, Dempsey, Baer and Louis and these weigh roughly between 180 and 210. I also don´t think Tyson, Lewis and Wlad punched much harder.

An example the difference in power between a 200 pound Joe Louis and a 160 pound Julian Jackson is bigger than that between a 200 pound Joe Louis and a 240 pound Lennox Lewis.




But that spinning of the head is what makes you go down. A KO happens when the brain inside the head get´s rattled too hard and blacks out. More weight, more kinetic energy, more shaking. Of course there are diminishing returns and from a certain point the more weight of a glove will slow your velocity down too much so that it will lessen your kinetic energy. But in my oppinion today´s 8/10 ounce gloves are still in the range of increasing the kinetic energy.
I agree that punches from smaller gloves hurt more and are more likely to inflict serious injuries but bigger gloves are more likely to produce one punch knockouts.what experience do you go by ??
if you don't think lennox lewis hits much harder than schmeling i think you are following the wrong sport.

[bodhi]

what experience do you go by ??
if you don't think lennox lewis hits much harder than scmeling i think you are following the wrong sport.

What I have seen. Lewis punches harder than Schmeling, that´s a given but not that much harder that his more weight would make you think.
Sorry that I´m a bit unclear at times English isn´t my mother tongue but only my third one.

[turpinr]

What I have seen. Lewis punches harder than Schmeling, that´s a given but not that much harder that his more weight would make you think.
Sorry that I´m a bit unclear at times English isn´t my mother tongue but only my third one.there's nothing wrong with your english mate.its better than 90% of english speaking people,probably more.

[GladiatoR]

What I have seen. Lewis punches harder than Schmeling, that´s a given but not that much harder that his more weight would make you think.
Sorry that I´m a bit unclear at times English isn´t my mother tongue but only my third one.

You've got three tongues?

:lol:

[dezbeast]

Turpinr, I personally never considered Schmeling's punching power in the same dimension as Lewis's. That's a totally new concept to me. Please explain in detail why you believe their power to be comparible. You have peaked my interest.

[turpinr]

Turpinr, I personally never considered Schmeling's punching power in the same dimension as Lewis's. That's a totally new concept to me. Please explain in detail why you believe their power to be comparible. You have peaked my interest.have a look at the posts again

[turpinr]

You've got three tongues?

:lol:and a hell of a sex life ??he's chased by women wherever he goes :lol::lol:

[bodhi]

Turpinr, I personally never considered Schmeling's punching power in the same dimension as Lewis's. That's a totally new concept to me. Please explain in detail why you believe their power to be comparible. You have peaked my interest.

The ring magazine rated Schmeling as their number 55 and Lewis as their number 33 in their 100 greatest punchers list.

[turpinr]

The ring magazine rated Schmeling as their number 55 and Lewis as their number 33 in their 100 greatest punchers list.was jimmy wilde near the top of that list ??

[dezbeast]

Ah, that's what happens when I speed read. LOL

[turpinr]

Ah, that's what happens when I speed read. LOL:goodwho do you think is the biggest hitting heavyweight champ ??lewis had a hell of a right hand for instance.

[bodhi]

was jimmy wilde near the top of that list ??

He was number 3.

[turpinr]

He was number 3.i've seen a list from about 10 years ago,i think

[dezbeast]

:goodwho do you think is the biggest hitting heavyweight champ ??lewis had a hell of a right hand for instance.

I have a big explanation for you but I think that Lewis is a definate candidate. I want to wait until I use my brother's laptop to do an actual complete post. I can only type about 10 wpm on this stupid Playstation Portable.

[turpinr]

I have a big explanation for you but I think that Lewis is a definate candidate. I want to wait until I use my brother's laptop to do an actual complete post. I can only type about 10 wpm on this stupid Playstation Portable.ok.i'd have him near the top and his namesake ,joe, as the most accurate.

[Bokaj]

That's certainly a possible theory, but here's the video as promised:


Same impact between smaller mma gloves and boxing gloves. Padding does nothing but protect the skin from superficial wounds.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Very surprising. But the test did prove that padding made a lot of difference since the bare knuckle blow had substantially more force than the blows with glows. It was just that the padding in MMA gloves and boxing gloves respectively had insignificant difference.

[McGrain]

It was just that the padding in MMA gloves and boxing gloves respectively had insignificant difference.


Which is what I told you in my very first post :D

They don't think it be like this, but it do.

[PowerPuncher]

You can't take fighters on their word all of the time though. Fighters like to emphasize their victories, and will often claim guys they beat were better than guys they lost to.

Or fighter A lands his money punch really clean, where as fighter B doesnt land his best punch all night. Plus against fighter A the boxer may be more open

Plus its pretty hard to compare 'power' of someone that hits you in the face anyway

Its also worth noting Foreman lifted a shed load of weights on his comeback

[Bokaj]

Which is what I told you in my very first post :D

They don't think it be like this, but it do.

Yeah. Time for me to have a piece of humble pie now. I damn Youtube to hell!

[Bokaj]

Padding is about protecting the eyes etc., not limiting the concussive power of the punches involved.

My humble pie is already eaten, but here you were obviously wrong according to the experiment. The force of a bare nuckle blow was more than 20% higher than the one with boxing gloves. So, padding does limit the power of the punch.

My bruised ego forced me to point this out. I feel badly let down by them MMA gloves.

[McGrain]

My humble pie is already eaten, but here you were obviously wrong according to the experiment.


Nope :D

My remark was related to the additional padding added to existing gloves.

[lefthook31]

Its also worth noting Foreman lifted a shed load of weights on his comeback


You ever see the HBO prefight deal with him chaining a car to his back and pulling it up a hill? Guy was nuts.

[lefthook31]

:goodwho do you think is the biggest hitting heavyweight champ ??lewis had a hell of a right hand for instance.
I dont know of too many heavyweight champions that had more power in a single punch than Lennox Lewis did in his righthand.

[manbearpig]

The kinetic energy cannot possible decrease since a glove, no matter how big, doesn't add any energy. It will be unchanged. But extra padding will lessen the amount of energy transmitted upon impact due to the friction when the padding contracts. It's like hitting someone who have thick clothes on to the body. Part of the energy of the blow will be absorbed by the padding of the clothes.

I have no doubt that the smaller gloves inflicted more severe facial injuries but they did not produce more kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is a fuction of mass and velocity and is only going to decrease with the introduction of a lighter glove. The impact of the blow upon the brain does not diminuish when you use a smaller glove.

Talking shite. You can look at it two ways - Force of punch = mass x acceleration which goes towards heavier gloves doing more damage.
Or pressure = force/area which leans towards lighter(smaller) gloves doing more damage.

Bigger gloves have more padding which negates any benefit of a slightly heavier glove giving more force to the punch.

Smaller gloves will do more damage.

[Pusnuts]

I dont know of too many heavyweight champions that had more power in a single punch than Lennox Lewis did in his righthand.

Lennox's power was underrated for a long time, until he became an established champion really. When he fought Bruno the UK commentators were like Bruno is the big bomber here and Lewis is just a boxer, pretty funny guy in a deadpan jamaican way too, when he demolished Golota he "let him ponder my right-handa"

I reckon his best right-hand was harder than Tyson for one, Tyson was not the biggest one-punch guy

For their time , maybe only Marciano is comparable on single punch power, Foreman was a big puncher but not as much as Lewis I think

[lefthook31]

Talking shite. You can look at it two ways - Force of punch = mass x acceleration which goes towards heavier gloves doing more damage.
Or pressure = force/area which leans towards lighter(smaller) gloves doing more damage.

Bigger gloves have more padding which negates any benefit of a slightly heavier glove giving more force to the punch.

Smaller gloves will do more damage.
We need an engineer here to figure it out. Wouldnt a smaller glove with less overall mass travel faster to its target as well?

[Bokaj]

Nope :D

My remark was related to the additional padding added to existing gloves.

You playing hardball? Alright. You win this time McGrain, from the clan... McGrain. But I'll be back! Ha, ha, ha - etc, etc

[manbearpig]

We need an engineer here to figure it out. Wouldnt a smaller glove with less overall mass travel faster to its target as well?

Should do, yeah, assuming the boxer is using the same force on each glove, the smaller one will move faster.

[Vysotsky]

The 00s havent been a great generation but still has its share of seriously big hitters. Not all the bigger men are big punchers. But Wlad, Tua, Briggs, Rahman, Haye, Brewster, Maskaev are very big punchers aided by their size and resistannce training. Virchis and Danny Williams while not being top class hit like sledge hammers. Despite it being a weak era not many eras have a collection of hitters like that

The 90s HWs have the biggest collection of big punchers of any decade, with Lewis, Tyson, Bruno, Rudduck, Tua, McCall, Bowe, Morrison, Hide, Maskaev, Briggs. Size is certainly a reason for that generation being the biggest hitters

I'd add guys like Airich and Platov to that list. Boytsov too

But what is so magical about 180? 180 would put you in the lightheavyweigt-cruiserweight range today. I doubt you would make the argument that a middleweight would hit harder than them, even though the middleweight would likely have more handspeed. People have no problem with bigger guys hitting harder than smaller guys in the lower divisions, not until it comes to past vs modern heavyweights do they take a different stance.

See below

Because from a certain point - in my oppinion it starts around 180 pounds and than drops even further at around 220 pounds - weight doesn't help your punching power anymore. With more weight you lose speed. Less speed, less kinetic energy, less power.


Sorry, I don´t think Tyson had more power than Louis. He looked more spectacular but he didn´t have more power :bart

I never said Wlad and Lewis didn´t have more power than Marciano. What I said was that from around 180 pounds on and than again from 220 pounds on, more weight doesn´t do much more for power than from 112 to 160 does. Weight is influences power more in the lower weightclasses than in the higher ones and the higher the weight gets the less important it gets.

Read above. Why 180 and 220? I go by experience. I don´t see much difference in power from Marciano, Schmeling, Dempsey, Baer and Louis and these weigh roughly between 180 and 210. I also don´t think Tyson, Lewis and Wlad punched much harder.

An example the difference in power between a 200 pound Joe Louis and a 160 pound Julian Jackson is bigger than that between a 200 pound Joe Louis and a 240 pound Lennox Lewis.

I'm right on the same wavelength as you about this Bodhi.

I remember reading something on a study of size to strength ratio in the animal kingdom. The field of study that i want to say is bio-mechanics but i'm not positve.

Anyways, an ant can lift 1000X it's own strength (or something like that) and an elephant can lift 5X it's own weight. Now obviously a Elephant can lift way more weight than an ant due to it's size. But as they studied more and more animals you reach a point when you find the optimum size to marry both size and strength for their maximum effect, that sweet spot.

Force = Mass X Acceleration
force = punching power
mass = weight
acceleration = handspeed

Too light in weight and there isn't enough mass behind your punches. Too much mass and you lose hand speed, also diminishing power. (think Valuev)

Using history as the evidence the sweet spot seems to be between 185lbs - 220lbs, the most frequent between 205-215.

Dempsey - 190 average weights
Marciano - 185
Louis - 205-210
Shavers -210
Foreman- 215-220
Tyson - 215

Now like any rule there are exceptions.

- On the low end would be Fitz and Ketchel who proved at 160 they packed a HW punch.

- On the high end would be Lewis or Klitschko, my opinion, they have the coordination that most big men don't and somehow manage to keep the handspeed of a 210lb puncher.

That seems to make sense to me at least.

I think i'm right in saying that, although we've been unlucky enough to incur deaths resulting from boxing injuries in the ring in the past two years, MMA has had none?

I think this claim is spurious.

There has been 1 death, in the late 90's in a fight in Ukraine. It was a 1 show promotion type deal and the fighter was an American, he got KO'd then started having a seizure (i saw a video of it) and ended up dying.

The guy had some type of pre-existing condition though that he managed to conceal when entering the tournament. I'm pretty sure that's the only recorded death in the sport.

[PowerPuncher]

Talking shite. You can look at it two ways - Force of punch = mass x acceleration which goes towards heavier gloves doing more damage.
Or pressure = force/area which leans towards lighter(smaller) gloves doing more damage.

Bigger gloves have more padding which negates any benefit of a slightly heavier glove giving more force to the punch.

Smaller gloves will do more damage.

You cant create as much acceleration with a heavier glove on your hand, but the weight of the glove is irrelevant. The main issue is the transferance of energy is less because of the softer glove that doesnt conduct the energy as efficiently.

Lets take an extreme example of a 3 pillows attached to your hands, if you punch someone its just not going to do damage of any kind.

The more padding the less damage/concussion, but the more padding also protects the fists to punch for longer

[dezbeast]

:goodwho do you think is the biggest hitting heavyweight champ ??lewis had a hell of a right hand for instance.

First, there’s something I want to clarify. This whole post is overly generalized and there are a lot more forces at work that I‘m not even going to attempt to cover. I’m only going to state as much as I feel you may be able to understand regarding my views on the subject of punching power.
From what I have come to reason, the true measure of power is how many pounds of force someone can generate with their best single punch. So if all the heavyweight champs in history were to be tested with a measuring device, I suspect that Lewis or the older Foreman would likely be in the top five. It’s really too hard to determine accurately who number one is with certainty. Though power is an important factor, believe it or not, it translates differently depending which type of fighters you fight. So as a rule of thumb I always remind myself that just because a boxer, if they land at the right spot, is the most capable of spinning the head the quickest, does not mean they have the most true power. That honor would only go to those who score the highest on the measuring device. I categorize the power punchers in the following ways.

1. The power KO artists- I give this title to guys that throw their punches at a slower velocity. Their advantage is that they have more mass in the fists and arms. Since their fists are usually bigger, the head will bounce off of there fist quicker. I somehow see Liston falling under this category for his time period, though I do not think his punches would have much of an effect on today’s big men.

2. The speed KO artists- now this can be deceptive, because it may seem to apply to guys like Tyson, but in reality, right before impact, his fists aren’t traveling much faster than the slow punching guys due to his lack of height and reach, which play a big role on generating the speed right before impact. He also has nearly as much bulk as some of the slow punching KO artists, which suggests that he didn’t need as much speed to generate the power he has shown. I would classify someone like Shavers a speed KO artist. The velocity of his punches before impact was frightening.

3. The fast accelerating KO artists- Tyson fits the mold perfectly here. Marciano does to, but only when going against opponents his size. Basically since these guys have shorter reaches, they have to reach optimum speed in a shorter period of time to be about as effective as the other 2 types of KO artists mentioned above. Their best attribute would have to be the ability to throw a KO punch which gives the opponent less time to react to it, since it’s traveling a shorter distance before impact. However, I suspect that these types in general don’t generate quite as much power as the others above.

Now from my observations, power seems to translate differently when delivered to different types of opponents.
Keep in mind that in general, the bigger or heavier an opponents head is, then the better their chin usually is. (I like to refer to weak chin as weak neck muscles, but I’m sticking to boxing terminology) I’ll only break it down into 4 types of opponents. Also take note that I’m assuming that all punchers would hit them squarely. So I’m not factoring defense whatsoever.

1. Opponents with the smaller/lighter heads with weaker chins relative to their head size. These guys are obviously the worse and would likely get KO’d by all the types of power punchers I have listed above.

2. Opponents with smaller/lighter heads with strong chins relative to their head size. I think the speed KO artists would spin their heads the quickest, followed by the fast accelerators, followed by the power KO artists.

3. Opponents with bigger/heavier heads with weaker chins relative to their head size. I believe the power KO guys would do best against these, followed by the speed KO artists, and then the fast accelerating KO artists.

4. Opponents with bigger/heavier heads with stronger chins relative to their head size. These types are what I would consider the greatest chins in boxing. If they had a decent defense I would only favor a power KO artist to dispatch of them. I think the other types of KO artists should choose another strategy that doesn’t focus on the KO when facing those kind of opponents, because if they go into the fight looking for the KO, I think it would likely be a long night for them.


That’s pretty much all I’m willing to say. Of course I left out many other factors like types of punches thrown, accuracy, the ability to score a KO of an opponent whose offensive and/or defensive skills are good and/or great, the ability to score late round KOs, plus the fact styles make fights. The list just goes on and on and on. That’s why my philosophy these days is to keep it as simple as possible.