Elite Light Heavyweights

[samsuska]

I categorize the weight classes based on elite, world class and above average. The elite level would be all time greats and those who fall just short of that status. The elite level consists of those with excellent resumes and those who present head to head problems for other elites and world class level fighters.

I have been researching this a lot lately with the boxing fan's best friend: youtube. I have found Conn (the Pittsburgh kid like myself), Foster, Spinks, Tiger, Qawi, Jones Jr, Hopkins to be elite thus far. Mustafa Muhammad, Tarver, Glen Johnson would be examples of guys at world class level. Who am I missing? I am sure this has been a topic repeatedly but could I get some tips on who to watch and possibly some opinions on fighters who are somewhat between world and elite classes (like Jones Jr).

Thanks, and I am not really a newbie I have had like 3 different screen names over the last 3 years and they keep getting erased.

[Addie]

I categorize the weight classes based on elite, world class and above average. The elite level would be all time greats and those who fall just short of that status. The elite level consists of those with excellent resumes and those who present head to head problems for other elites and world class level fighters.

I have been researching this a lot lately with the boxing fan's best friend: youtube. I have found Conn (the Pittsburgh kid like myself), Foster, Spinks, Tiger, Qawi, Jones Jr, Hopkins to be elite thus far. Mustafa Muhammad, Tarver, Glen Johnson would be examples of guys at world class level. Who am I missing? I am sure this has been a topic repeatedly but could I get some tips on who to watch and possibly some opinions on fighters who are somewhat between world and elite classes (like Jones Jr).

Thanks, and I am not really a newbie I have had like 3 different screen names over the last 3 years and they keep getting erased.

Hopkins is not an elite LHW. He's not fought too many fights there, and was quite clearly at his peak at 160lbs. He wouldn't make a top 20 list.

Foster, Conn, Tiger, Spinks, Charles, Moore, Tunney.

[Flea Man]

Not Hopkins.

You're missing Matthew Saad Muhammad :good

[Flea Man]

Oh, Tarver and Johnson would both get starched multiple times in the late 70's.

[bodhi]

I categorize the weight classes based on elite, world class and above average. The elite level would be all time greats and those who fall just short of that status. The elite level consists of those with excellent resumes and those who present head to head problems for other elites and world class level fighters.

I have been researching this a lot lately with the boxing fan's best friend: youtube. I have found Conn (the Pittsburgh kid like myself), Foster, Spinks, Tiger, Qawi, Jones Jr, Hopkins to be elite thus far. Mustafa Muhammad, Tarver, Glen Johnson would be examples of guys at world class level. Who am I missing? I am sure this has been a topic repeatedly but could I get some tips on who to watch and possibly some opinions on fighters who are somewhat between world and elite classes (like Jones Jr).

Thanks, and I am not really a newbie I have had like 3 different screen names over the last 3 years and they keep getting erased.

The highlighted I wouldn´t consider elite but I´m pretty harsh when it comes to this. You must be in my Top3, in some weights Top4, of my tiers to be an elite/atg. For lhw that means I consider Charles, Foster, Moore, Spinks, Loughran, Tunney, Conn, Langford, Greb and Harold Johnson as elite.

[turpinr]

i'd consider charles,foster,moore,spinks,conn and roy jones as top drawer ,elite light heavies.

[GladiatoR]

Hopkins is so overrated it's unreal.

[bodhi]

i'd consider charles,foster,moore,spinks,conn and roy jones as top drawer ,elite light heavies.

Why Jones and not Michaelchewski? Imo the difference between them at lhw is nearly non existent and an argument for both as beeing greater could be made.

[turpinr]

Why Jones and not Michaelchewski? Imo the difference between them at lhw is nearly non existent and an argument for both as beeing greater could be made.its jones' hand speed that catches my eye.i don't like the bloke but he is fast.the others who i mentioned ,spniks apart,especially charles,are all favourites of mine.

[anarci]

What kind of list is this without the best one Ezzard Charles? Or a top 3 or 4 guy like Archie Moore? What about Tommy Loughran who was considered arguably the greatest of all pre 1950s? Gene Tunney ? and if you wann a go back further Jack Obrein and Bob fitzimmons. You left out a whole lot of guys here. Oh yeah id consider Harold Johnson elite also and i have a feeling im forgetting at least 1 or 2, this was a rich division, you got to go back and do some more homework.

[Flea Man]

What kind of list is this without the best one Ezzard Charles? Or a top 3 or 4 guy like Archie Moore? What about Tommy Loughran who was considered arguably the greatest of all pre 1950s? Gene Tunney ? and if you wann a go back further Jack Obrein and Bob fitzimmons. You left out a whole lot of guys here. Oh yeah id consider Harold Johnson elite also and i have a feeling im forgetting at least 1 or 2, this was a rich division, you got to go back and do some more homework.

Agree 100%:good

[red cobra]

Tommy Loughran would easily outpoint Bernard Hopkins, and so would Billy Conn and Willie Pastrano.

[red cobra]

Bernard is great against walk in slugger types with no mobility or cleverness...he owns them, but not against a mobile fast jabbing boxer.

[bodhi]

Tommy Loughran would easily outpoint Bernard Hopkins, and so would Billy Conn and Willie Pastrano.

I agree with Conn and Loughran but I´m not so sure about Pastrano.

Bernard is great against walk in slugger types with no mobility or cleverness...he owns them, but not against a mobile fast jabbing boxer.

At this age. A younger Bernard would be do much better against this type. Harold Johnson against the Bernard Hopkins who dismantled Tarver would be a good fight. I expect a prime Johnson to win though.

[red cobra]

Harold Johnson would have outpointed Bernard in one of the "dullest" fights (to casual fight fans) ever.

[young griffo]

Why Jones and not Michaelchewski? Imo the difference between them at lhw is nearly non existent and an argument for both as beeing greater could be made.
Michalczewski was very good but Jones was much better at Lt Heavy.

Jones barely broke a sweat in beating the likes of Hill,Hall ,Harmon and Griffin whereas Darius had to work harder for his wins against the same men.Not to mention Michalczewski was in strife then got lucky in the first Rocchigiani fight.

Also Jones floored twice and whipped 12 rounds to zip Julio Cesar Gonzalez who would eventually end Michalczweski's unbeaten streak.

No knock on Michalczewski I just think Jones was a better fighter at his Lt Heavy peak,but they should've fought to settle it.

[bodhi]

Michalczewski was very good but Jones was much better at Lt Heavy.

Jones barely broke a sweat in beating the likes of Hill,Hall ,Harmon and Griffin whereas Darius had to work harder for his wins against the same men.Not to mention Michalczewski was in strife then got lucky in the first Rocchigiani fight.

Also Jones floored twice and whipped 12 rounds to zip Julio Cesar Gonzalez who would eventually end Michalczweski's unbeaten streak.

No knock on Michalczewski I just think Jones was a better fighter at his Lt Heavy peak,but they should've fought to settle it.

Well, you have some good points in DM kind of cheated Rocchigiani and lost to Gonzalez while Jones beat him. But DM was as much past against Gonzalez as Jones was against Tarver and Johnson and should be excused like Jones.

Their resumes are pretty much even at lhw. Jones has longevity and dominance over DM. DM on the other hand was the one who unified the belts - Jones only unified them after DM was (unrightfully) stripped of them - and was the linear champ (and should have been the ring champ, instead they made Jones the champ just because of him beeing a big star in America :-() for years. Jones was his number one contender but didn´t make the fight happen, which he could have done. Additinally, Jones avoided a already made fight with Rocchigiani which ended in Rocchigiani sueing and nearly finishing off the WBC.
I have them in the same bracket in my tier-system both outside the Top10 between 12 and 15 and thus not beeing elite.

H2h it is not that easy as it looks on first glance. True Jones looked marvelous at lhw. The speed. The power. Add his ring intelligence, reflexes ans skill. But DM wouldn´t have been just another name on his record. I´m sure he would have given him the toughest fight of his career and would be the best name on his record - because DM would have been prime and not weightdrained and Jones would be prime either.
A good jab beats speed. DM had one of the best jabs of the 90s. Powerful, timed, fast, accurat and often used. And DM wasn´t just a face first brawler. He had a good defence, was good at all ranges, very tough and strong. I think Jones should be the favourite but not by that much. He would have to dig deep to win and truly show his greatness. Would have loeved to see that one.

[young griffo]

Well, you have some good points in DM kind of cheated Rocchigiani and lost to Gonzalez while Jones beat him. But DM was as much past against Gonzalez as Jones was against Tarver and Johnson and should be excused like Jones.

Their resumes are pretty much even at lhw. Jones has longevity and dominance over DM. DM on the other hand was the one who unified the belts - Jones only unified them after DM was (unrightfully) stripped of them - and was the linear champ (and should have been the ring champ, instead they made Jones the champ just because of him beeing a big star in America :-() for years. Jones was his number one contender but didn´t make the fight happen, which he could have done. Additinally, Jones avoided a already made fight with Rocchigiani which ended in Rocchigiani sueing and nearly finishing off the WBC.
I have them in the same bracket in my tier-system both outside the Top10 between 12 and 15 and thus not beeing elite.
Fair enough.

I agree that both don't rate near Charles,Moore,Foster or Spinks but both were still very,very good fighters who could only be just outside an all time top 10,and both were very dangerous in H2H match ups as well.

[samsuska]

So, I clearly forgot about Charles who I have studied and he is clearly elite and ATG. I will now look into Tunney more but I am not sure if there is enough video. I will look into Loughran, Langford and of course Archie Moore whom I have seen a few times and was impressed even though I think he was old, real old. Hopkins and Tiger may not be elite upon reconsideration, because neither did enough or outmatches enough AT THIS WEIGHT. And I am still not completely sold on Roy at this weight as well. Thank you for all the replies, appreciated.

[Flea Man]

And Saad :good

[anarci]

And Saad :good Saad was not elite or a top 10 guy at LH.

[Flea Man]

Saad was not elite or a top 10 guy at LH.

I'd say he's pretty formidable H2H, which is how you rate things.

Fought in probably the best division the weight has ever seen (though of course I'll have no argument with anyone saying the Charles/Bivins/Moore/Johnson era was better) and as the guy is looking to get info on light-heavys he should check Saad out.

Saad's wins over Johnson (x2) Conteh (x2) Lopez (x2) Kates....awesome stuff.

Although I suppose as I wasn't there at the time I'm not inclined to comment:patsch

The guy thinks Johnson and Tarver are 2nd tier, he obviously needs some help :lol:

[Beau Geste]

Tommy Loughran has to be on any list of elite Light Heavies. Also Gene Tunney, Ezzard Charles, and Archie Moore. Maybe Joey Maxim.

[anarci]

I'd say he's pretty formidable H2H, which is how you rate things.

Fought in probably the best division the weight has ever seen (though of course I'll have no argument with anyone saying the Charles/Bivins/Moore/Johnson era was better) and as the guy is looking to get info on light-heavys he should check Saad out.

Saad's wins over Johnson (x2) Conteh (x2) Lopez (x2) Kates....awesome stuff.

Although I suppose as I wasn't there at the time I'm not inclined to comment:patsch

The guy thinks Johnson and Tarver are 2nd tier, he obviously needs some help :lol: I was a Saad fan also,although i rooted for Yaqui to beat him. Saad was actually a better fighter when he was a boxer, when he was champ he was all about Balls to the walls type of fighter. I think hes a borderline great fighter. I dont see him beating any of the elite LH in a H2H matchup

[turpinr]

yaqui lopez must have fought every light-heavy champ and contender going in the 70's and early 80's

[Flea Man]

He could box, but his main asset was his ability to come out on top in the trenches. He's clearly between 11-20, and Raging Bull, one of the most respected posters here gave him a live chance over Harold Johnson.

Saad would clean up today. His resume is very good considering he fought then, only person missing is Galindez and that's neither of their faults. Where would you rank Galindez? 11-20 as well? Behind or in front of Saad?

[Flea Man]

Yaqui Lopez would be a champ in pretty much any other era. So tough, nice jab and lovely short punches.

[Addie]

He could box, but his main asset was his ability to come out on top in the trenches. He's clearly between 11-20, and Raging Bull, one of the most respected posters here gave him a live chance over Harold Johnson.

Saad would clean up today. His resume is very good considering he fought then, only person missing is Galindez and that's neither of their faults. Where would you rank Galindez? 11-20 as well? Behind or in front of Saad?

Qawi would clean up LHW today, and Mustafa would be very very successful too.

[Flea Man]

No doubt. I think that shows just how strong that division was.

Addie: Saad vs Qawi PRIME FOR PRIME? Would be a different fight IMO though I think Qawi would still win, a close decision in a super exciting fight.

[anarci]

He could box, but his main asset was his ability to come out on top in the trenches. He's clearly between 11-20, and Raging Bull, one of the most respected posters here gave him a live chance over Harold Johnson.

Saad would clean up today. His resume is very good considering he fought then, only person missing is Galindez and that's neither of their faults. Where would you rank Galindez? 11-20 as well? Behind or in front of Saad? Im not sure who id put ahead but one would be right behind the other i might take Saad but dont quote me. I agree they are both between 11-15. I dont see him beating Harold Johnson nope:nono Johnson would out box him.


As for Yaqui hell yeah he was very good and its too bad he never got a title he came OHHHHHH so close against Saad and Galindez in one of their fights. Man its a shame when you see guys like Julio Gonzalez,Clinton Woods,Jeff Harding,Dennis Andries and other guys who were solid but not nowhere on Lopez s level get Wordl titles:verysad Lopez would have cleaned all their clocks .

[samsuska]

I'd say he's pretty formidable H2H, which is how you rate things.

Fought in probably the best division the weight has ever seen (though of course I'll have no argument with anyone saying the Charles/Bivins/Moore/Johnson era was better) and as the guy is looking to get info on light-heavys he should check Saad out.

Saad's wins over Johnson (x2) Conteh (x2) Lopez (x2) Kates....awesome stuff.

Although I suppose as I wasn't there at the time I'm not inclined to comment:patsch

The guy thinks Johnson and Tarver are 2nd tier, he obviously needs some help :lol:

So I assume that you believe Johnson and Tarver are of the 3rd tier. In my rating of elite, world class and above average I generally include most titlists in the world class level and contenders at the above average level. I believe Tarver gives a lot of guys problems, though Tarver never had great composure, the 'IT' factor that makes guys elite; so I put Tarver in the world class. As for Johnson he is clearly not elite just like Tarver is not elite. However, I think Glen really outmatches the guys at the above average level and that makes him a borderline world class level guy or 2nd tier on my 3 level rating system. Thanks for the conversation and as far as Saad I am so entertained by him, but he was clearly a world class level guy. He had too many lapses and was too hitable to operate at the elite level.

[Flea Man]

I dunno. As hittable as he was he was super resilient, or of the best thrower of uppercuts of all time and had a demonic right hand.

Only JUST outside IMO and not many others would disagree. Arguably the best from one if the best eras the division has ever seen.

Also, whatdo yourhink of the theory that Bob Foster was terrified of being hit? There is video evidence to back this up. What about Fosters comp?

John Conteh at his best would compete with any of the Elites you mentioned.

[TommyV]

Hey Sam, are you the guy that sparred with Jones Jr before the Trinidad fight?

[samsuska]

I dunno. As hittable as he was he was super resilient, or of the best thrower of uppercuts of all time and had a demonic right hand.

Only JUST outside IMO and not many others would disagree. Arguably the best from one if the best eras the division has ever seen.

Also, whatdo yourhink of the theory that Bob Foster was terrified of being hit? There is video evidence to back this up. What about Fosters comp?

John Conteh at his best would compete with any of the Elites you mentioned.

I agree that Saad is just below elite level. As for Bob I think his style, which was awkward but relaxed, made him appear to be terrified. Bob always seemed to hold his composure at LH when being hit and was very comfortable and relaxed. But at heavyweight, where he just couldn't match up with the top guys, he was clearly not comfortable with the punishment. Bob Foster's style just could not suceed at the world or elite level of heavyweights. John Conteh I have not seen enough of but he has a good resume, and I need to break down his film and study him. As for Foster's comp I believe Tiger was the best guy he ever faced, and the rest were above average guys, but I still feel very confident that he could perform at the same level against other elite fighters. I am not one to get swept away by physical gifts at all, but man did he have thunder in his fists, both of them at that.

[samsuska]

Hey Sam, are you the guy that sparred with Jones Jr before the Trinidad fight?

Yeah I am thanks for remembering, I forgot I even talked about that here. I was also his #2 sparring for the Calzaghe fight, and was invited back for his last few fights but due to various reasons ($) I did not work with him.

[Flea Man]

I even think he looked startled when under pressure at 175. As you say, anyone who tried to sustain that pressure would be met with his fists: for my money the hardest hitting light heavy ever, though Spinks and Moore I wouldn't disagree with.

You're my new favourite poster :lol: I love the light heavys :good

[TommyV]

Yeah I am thanks for remembering, I forgot I even talked about that here. I was also his #2 sparring for the Calzaghe fight, and was invited back for his last few fights but due to various reasons ($) I did not work with him.

Good to see you back. :good

[anarci]

I even think he looked startled when under pressure at 175. As you say, anyone who tried to sustain that pressure would be met with his fists: for my money the hardest hitting light heavy ever, though Spinks and Moore I wouldn't disagree with.

You're my new favourite poster :lol: I love the light heavys :good For one punch shot Foster hit harder than Spinks or Moore. No doubt about that. And im a huge Spinks guy.

[samsuska]

For one punch shot Foster hit harder than Spinks or Moore. No doubt about that. And im a huge Spinks guy.

I have studied Spinks as well, and though I see some weaker areas I feel that he was so good at controlling range and sticking to his game plan that I can't really pick anyone in a H2H match up to beat him. Spinks was so awkward yet such a fine ring general with great discipline that I cannot confidently pick anyone to beat him. Spinks threw 2 or 3 different types of right hands with great effectiveness and this enabled him to superbly control the distance. In short, I am impressed by his style which enable him to execute his skills that highlighted his physical gifts.

[anarci]

I have studied Spinks as well, and though I see some weaker areas I feel that he was so good at controlling range and sticking to his game plan that I can't really pick anyone in a H2H match up to beat him. Spinks was so awkward yet such a fine ring general with great discipline that I cannot confidently pick anyone to beat him. Spinks threw 2 or 3 different types of right hands with great effectiveness and this enabled him to superbly control the distance. In short, I am impressed by his style which enable him to execute his skills that highlighted his physical gifts.
I agree i dont pick any of the other LH to beat Spinks in a H2H matchup, for the exception of maybe Charles. But i do think Foster was the hardest hitting LH ever hands down.

[Addie]

I think Foster certainly had more one punch power than Spinks did, who actually got a lot of his stoppages through accumulation, as opposed to Foster, who got the job done with one shot more often than not.

[The Morlocks]

Not Hopkins.

You're missing Matthew Saad Muhammad :good
Saad was great and I'd throw in Galindez too. Like him or hate him, he defeated a lot of prime ltheavies by turning it on at the end and getting the decision. And of course the oldtime greLoughran and Delany and Burlenbach:rasta

[The Morlocks]

I'd say he's pretty formidable H2H, which is how you rate things.

Fought in probably the best division the weight has ever seen (though of course I'll have no argument with anyone saying the Charles/Bivins/Moore/Johnson era was better) and as the guy is looking to get info on light-heavys he should check Saad out.

Saad's wins over Johnson (x2) Conteh (x2) Lopez (x2) Kates....awesome stuff.

Although I suppose as I wasn't there at the time I'm not inclined to comment:patsch

The guy thinks Johnson and Tarver are 2nd tier, he obviously needs some help :lol:
I was there. and Franklin/Saad was superexciting and seemed to have a will made of stone. He never gave up and he never quit. His power could get you at anytime and his chin held out. The fight I saw of him that I like best though is the great one w' Dynamite Douglas under the Duran-Viruet fight in 77. They beat the shit out of each other and Saad was awarded the fight.:hat

[Flea Man]

I think Foster certainly had more one punch power than Spinks did, who actually got a lot of his stoppages through accumulation, as opposed to Foster, who got the job done with one shot more often than not.

Good enough point.

Archie Moore was a savage puncher too.

However, there's one word for Fosters power.............Chilling.

[Sweet Pea]

I categorize the weight classes based on elite, world class and above average. The elite level would be all time greats and those who fall just short of that status. The elite level consists of those with excellent resumes and those who present head to head problems for other elites and world class level fighters.

I have been researching this a lot lately with the boxing fan's best friend: youtube. I have found Conn (the Pittsburgh kid like myself), Foster, Spinks, Tiger, Qawi, Jones Jr, Hopkins to be elite thus far. Mustafa Muhammad, Tarver, Glen Johnson would be examples of guys at world class level. Who am I missing? I am sure this has been a topic repeatedly but could I get some tips on who to watch and possibly some opinions on fighters who are somewhat between world and elite classes (like Jones Jr).

Thanks, and I am not really a newbie I have had like 3 different screen names over the last 3 years and they keep getting erased.Eddie Mustafa Muhammad was at least a level or two above guys like Tarver and Johnson.

[Flea Man]

Eddie Mustafa Muhammad was at least a level or two above guys like Tarver and Johnson.

Pea; 11-20 fair for Saad? H2H who's the best guy you could envision him beating (other than Conteh, who I know you hold in high regard)

Actually, about Conteh; anything that changes if you put say, Conteh from the Ahumuda fight against Franklin at his best (I personally feel he's pretty damn excellent in the 2nd Johnson fight, and both Yaqui Lopez scraps, well, I always enjoy watching him fight but that's when he shows his full range IMO of toughness, punch variety and finishing ability) or any Conteh you believe to be 'the best' one.

I feel Conteh was super savvy late on, and lets go with his right hand with no obvious discomfort in the 1st Saad fight. I had him ahead by a coupla points going into the 14th round of a close fight (one of my favourites) but feel he may have capitulated against Saad at any time in his career. Saad had a way of making opponents fall apart late, persistent pressure, stone cold resistance to their full arsenal and a second/third/fourth wave of energy that must've been disheartening for opponents who had used his chin as target practice for the past ten rounds or so:lol:

[Seamus]

Henry Maske.

[samsuska]

Eddie Mustafa Muhammad was at least a level or two above guys like Tarver and Johnson.

I need to watch some more EMM, but I agree he is clearly superior to both in terms of overall skills, versatility, physical gifts. However, EMM does not belong in the elite category, like many other fighters at the world class level he too frequently lost focus. Have I made the mistake of limiting my rating system to 3 classes or do I need to regrade Tarver and Johnson to the lower class of above average?

[Flea Man]

I need to watch some more EMM, but I agree he is clearly superior to both in terms of overall skills, versatility, physical gifts. However, EMM does not belong in the elite category, like many other fighters at the world class level he too frequently lost focus. Have I made the mistake of limiting my rating system to 3 classes or do I need to regrade Tarver and Johnson to the lower class of above average?

I'd say they're average. I'd pick neither to beat any of the fighters we've mentioned so far.

Not going to go into it in depth but a quick summary of what I would class if pressed:

ELITE-We've already discussed. Did we say Billy Conn? He should probably have a case, not fantastic comp but quality at the weight and proved his toughness and ability to outmanouever a stronger/bigger puncher then he's ever going to see at Light Heavy when he fought Louis (is this a fair way to judge his ability at the weight? I've never seen any light-heavy footage of Conn)

World Class (if thats what you're calling it) Saad, Galindez, Conteh etc etc

Above Average-Marvin Johnson, Yaqui Lopez, Bernard Hopkins (in terms of H2H at the weight) Dariusz Michalewski (spelling?)

Average-Tarver, Johnson, whoever else.

NOT IN TERMS OF THEY ARE AVERAGE FIGHTERS I MUST STRESS!!!!

In terms of the 'the best', they are fairly average in terms of how they match up IMO.

By the way, as a fighter yourself I respect any opinion you make, and fair play for trying to improve your knowledge. Kudos for sparring with Roy as well, the man who got me into boxing (a story I relaid to Antonio Tarver who found it quite funny and made sure he touched my jaw with his left hand to let me get an idea of what musta hit Roy:lol:)

[red cobra]

Eddie Mustafa Muhammad was at least a level or two above guys like Tarver and Johnson.
He certainly was....and his only negative is in being the great unfullfilled talent of his era..he forgot more than most of the top guys around today ever knew.

[Flea Man]

He certainly was....and his only negative is in being the great unfullfilled talent of his era..he forgot more than most of the top guys around today ever knew.

It's true of the Galindez fight that he could've grasped the title but seemed to allow Galindez to take hold of it.

yet against Marvin Johnson he showed how his composed sharp shooting could see him be so, so impressive.

[samsuska]

Pea; 11-20 fair for Saad? H2H who's the best guy you could envision him beating (other than Conteh, who I know you hold in high regard)

Actually, about Conteh; anything that changes if you put say, Conteh from the Ahumuda fight against Franklin at his best (I personally feel he's pretty damn excellent in the 2nd Johnson fight, and both Yaqui Lopez scraps, well, I always enjoy watching him fight but that's when he shows his full range IMO of toughness, punch variety and finishing ability) or any Conteh you believe to be 'the best' one.

I feel Conteh was super savvy late on, and lets go with his right hand with no obvious discomfort in the 1st Saad fight. I had him ahead by a coupla points going into the 14th round of a close fight (one of my favourites) but feel he may have capitulated against Saad at any time in his career. Saad had a way of making opponents fall apart late, persistent pressure, stone cold resistance to their full arsenal and a second/third/fourth wave of energy that must've been disheartening for opponents who had used his chin as target practice for the past ten rounds or so:lol:

I am impressed by Conteh, I feel like he lost the Saad fight when he tired a bit and let Saad dictate the range of fighting. Conteh had great athleticism, I would have liked to seen better range dictation and spacing out of him. Conteh should have pulled that fight out, maybe it was his less than top flight durability, average conditioning or the will of Saad; likely a combination of the three is why Conteh lost that fight.
Conteh had no glaring weakness or even considerable weakness from what I have seen, what do you guys think?

The Yaqui Lopez vs Saad fight I watched was full of action and had great ebb and flow; both guys impressed me with their will and ability to maintain such intensity.

[Flea Man]

I am impressed by Conteh, I feel like he lost the Saad fight when he tired a bit and let Saad dictate the range of fighting. Conteh had great athleticism, (1)I would have liked to seen better range dictation and spacing out of him. Conteh should have pulled that fight out, (2)maybe it was his less than top flight durability, average conditioning or the will of Saad; likely a combination of the three is why Conteh lost that fight.
Conteh had no glaring weakness or even considerable weakness from what I have seen, what do you guys think?

The Yaqui Lopez vs Saad fight I watched was full of action and had great ebb and flow; both guys impressed me with their will and ability to maintain such intensity.

1. Contehs boxing at mid-range and movement is sublime in that fight

2. No, he was past prime, had been plagued with hand injuries and liked partying outside the ring. Conteh was tough, not Chuvalo-esque but tough and fairly durable. I don't think we ever saw him at his utmost best. And yes, it was the will of Saad. Conteh wasn't the first fighter to get undone late against Saad. The mans style was built around his immeasurable will, iron chin and ability to punch his way out of tight spots late into a fight. The fact he was able to do this was not a measure of his opponents ability/stamina, but the fact he was able to push his opponents to the limits.

Oh, and on Conteh's weaknesses, I'd say bad hands and discipline. Was a good hitter rather than a massive one, although could bang at times (see: below clip :good) He even trained in the back of a pub for the Saad fight :lol:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[red cobra]

It's true of the Galindez fight that he could've grasped the title but seemed to allow Galindez to take hold of it.

yet against Marvin Johnson he showed how his composed sharp shooting could see him be so, so impressive.
Mustafa himself maintained in an interview that he "wasn't ready for a Galindez" at the time...and then, only mentally perhaps. I was a huge fan of Galindez, but when I watched that fight on free tv that afternoon, I was frustrated that Mustafa wasn't asserting himself as he should have...his ship really came in though against Johnson, who though he was knocked out more cleanly by Spinks and perhaps by Saad Muhammad, was mastered and outclassed more so by Mustafa then by either one of those guys. Eddie fought with more reserve than those guys, and seemed to pull his power shots for the purpose of finessing Marvin in a subtle show of skill and dominance, IMO. The angles he gave Johnson, and his positioning in being able to use that debilitating left to the body..he seemed to casually dominate Marvin in a way that said "I can end it whenever I choose to"..he reminded me in a way of Jack Johnson that night with Johnson, in the same way that Lil Artha used to assert his dominance in a masterly, unhurried way.

[red cobra]

Conteh's left hand only display of mastery over Yaqui Lopez is, along with the Ahumada fight, his greatest showings, IMO. Conteh was a fine example of the way that the guys from the 15 round era used to seperate themselves from inferior opposition.

[Flea Man]

Conteh's left hand only display of mastery over Yaqui Lopez is, along with the Ahumada fight, his greatest showings, IMO. Conteh was a fine example of the way that the guys from the 15 round era used to seperate themselves from inferior opposition.

Good shout:good

[Flea Man]

Mustafa himself maintained in an interview that he "wasn't ready for a Galindez" at the time...and then, only mentally perhaps. I was a huge fan of Galindez, but when I watched that fight on free tv that afternoon, I was frustrated that Mustafa wasn't asserting himself as he should have...his ship really came in though against Johnson, who though he was knocked out more cleanly by Spinks and perhaps by Saad Muhammad, was mastered and outclassed more so by Mustafa then by either one of those guys. Eddie fought with more reserve than those guys, and seemed to pull his power shots for the purpose of finessing Marvin in a subtle show of skill and dominance, IMO. The angles he gave Johnson, and his positioning in being able to use that debilitating left to the body..he seemed to casually dominate Marvin in a way that said "I can end it whenever I choose to"..he reminded me in a way of Jack Johnson that night with Johnson, in the same way that Lil Artha used to assert his dominance in a masterly, unhurried way.

Good post Red:good

[samsuska]

[quote=fleaman;5832158]1. Contehs boxing at mid-range and movement is sublime in that fight

I agree that Conteh was great offensively in this fight at the mid-range but he just absorbed too much punishment from Saad at this range. I would have liked to seen more movement and getting to a better angle, I know he was capable of this but he just got worn down after 10 or 12 rounds of mid-range working with the super tough Saad. Just a little bit more side to side moving in the mid-range would have limited Saad's effectiveness and gave Conteh the edge. Conteh may not have had the best trainer possibly.

[Flea Man]

[quote=fleaman;5832158]1. Contehs boxing at mid-range and movement is sublime in that fight

I agree that Conteh was great offensively in this fight at the mid-range but he just absorbed too much punishment from Saad at this range. I would have liked to seen more movement and getting to a better angle, I know he was capable of this but he just got worn down after 10 or 12 rounds of mid-range working with the super tough Saad. Just a little bit more side to side moving in the mid-range would have limited Saad's effectiveness and gave Conteh the edge. Conteh may not have had the best trainer possibly.

Most would I reckon.

As I say, Conteh was probably on the slide physically, I feel this was his last great performance. And yes, a losing performance can be great, against a beast like Saad. One of my alltime favourite fights :good

As I say, not a matter of training. I think you're just underrating Saad's ability to beat the shit out of people.

[Mantequilla]

Conteh was just past his best in general when he fought Saad, basically going completely off the rails in the years leading up to it outside the ring.It's quite a feat that he was able to fight as well as he did, if you watch him in the Burnett bout previously it seemed he was a shot fighter.

Flea, i don't agree he was letting the right hand go against Saad.You were lucky if he threw it more than once or twice per round and often pulled it when he did.The left hooks were sporadic as well.iF anything i'd say it was his D that was as good as ever for much of the fight, maybe better as far as slipping the right goes, but i think that was due to the loss of punch resistance necessitating tightening things up a bit.In his prime he was a lot more disdainful of strict pure-boxing, like gato Gonzalez, Napoles etc,, being more concerned with getting a good enough integration of defence and offense going, without compromising staying in range and steadily countering.

A prime for prime fight Saad is going to take a helluva lot more leather, though he will have more openings to take advantage of himself.I'd wager on it being brutal.:good

[red cobra]

Thanks Flea...it was a great era for lightheavies with Conteh and Mustafa just narrowly missing each other's orbit..and frustrating too in that both could have been so much better than they actually were (a scary thought really)

[Sweet Pea]

Range control was one of Conteh's best attributes. I thought he boxed superbly early on and throughout most of the fight against Saad until he started to fade in the later rounds, partly due to the fact that he himself was on the slide by that point and the accumulative effect of Saad's blows. In his prime I'd have favored him to hold on to the lead over Saad and win a close, competitive, but comfortable decision. Having to resort mostly to pure boxing later in his career because of his right hand troubles, at least against the top players, is what hampered his overall effectiveness. With a sturdier right hand and a sturdier dedication to the sport in general, there's no telling how far he could've gone. One of the best talents of the past 40 years, IMO.

[Flea Man]

Conteh was just past his best in general when he fought Saad, basically going completely off the rails in the years leading up to it outside the ring.It's quite a feat that he was able to fight as well as he did, if you watch him in the Burnett bout previously it seemed he was a shot fighter.

Flea, i don't agree he was letting the right hand go against Saad.You were lucky if he threw it more than once or twice per round and often pulled it when he did.The left hooks were sporadic as well.iF anything i'd say it was his D that was as good as ever for much of the fight, maybe better as far as slipping the right goes, but i think that was due to the loss of punch resistance necessitating tightening things up a bit.In his prime he was a lot more disdainful of strict pure-boxing, like gato Gonzalez, Napoles etc,, being more concerned with getting a good enough integration of defence and offense going, without compromising staying in range and steadily countering.

A prime for prime fight Saad is going to take a helluva lot more leather, though he will have more openings to take advantage of himself.I'd wager on it being brutal.:good

It's sporadic, but I mean that when he does throw it he throws it with vigour. Not as much in his 'prime' but, as you said, Conteh limited exposing his dwindling punch resistance by tightening things up. I personally feel he looked awesome in 'Matador mode', Saad was just too persistant.

Prime for prime they would both be a mess. Because of Conteh opening up more I say he still gets tagegd more. Do you agree that he was dentable, even at his best? I just don't feel he was iron clad, though he was very tough. I feel mixing up his approach may see him out of their quicker.

Of course, if he implemented the same style as he actually did, but with increased physical attributes, he probably would've lasted the distance. But I don't feel Saad was around his best either, although the rematch made him look awesome to anyone who wasn't aware of how shot Conteh was by then (I mean, he looks like he's pissed in the ring, going down multiple times, sometimes from nothing:lol:)

[Flea Man]

Range control was one of Conteh's best attributes. I thought he boxed superbly early on and throughout most of the fight against Saad until he started to fade in the later rounds, partly due to the fact that he himself was on the slide by that point and the accumulative effect of Saad's blows. In his prime I'd have favored him to hold on to the lead over Saad and win a close, competitive, but comfortable decision. Having to resort mostly to pure boxing later in his career because of his right hand troubles, at least against the top players, is what hampered his overall effectiveness. With a sturdier right hand and a sturdier dedication to the sport in general, there's no telling how far he could've gone. One of the best talents of the past 40 years, IMO.


Got there just before, well put mate:good

His general durability though Pea; unstoppable in his prime, or do you feel he could go against the 'right' opponent?

[Mantequilla]

Incidentally, thinking of the Conteh saad fight has got me thinking about Eddie Cotton.He's another guy that hardly ever gets mentioned and he was a damn good boxer-puncher.He gave a mighty effort against Torres when well past his best...a proper clean boxing effort, unlike most of the stuff Hopkins has given us at a similar age.

[red cobra]

Conteh was sheer class..competing with his ring gifts was his "gift" of appealing so much to the opposite sex, and that helped take a toll on his 'in the ring" exploits, much like it did my man Willie Pastrano.

[Flea Man]

Cotton is someone I don't know enough about,t hough Greg was telling me about him yesterday.

Have only seen of Torres whats on youtube to be honest. Lovely left hook. Am I remembering correctly that Jose wasn't the most durable? Or am I wrong? Can't remember which poster said it to be honest.

[Sweet Pea]

I'd say Saad was definitely at his best for the Conteh fights, what makes you say otherwise Flea?

As for Conteh's durability, I think it was very strong. I wouldn't class him as unstoppable in his prime with as little evidence as we have to prove it either way, but I think he showed that he was the type of fighter that would regroup and come back stronger than ever once hurt. It lit a fire underneath him. His toughness and mentality are just as big a part of my high rating of him as his technical skills were. He really seemed to be the total package before hand and drinking issues slowed him down before we really got to see him at his best. If anything, the fact that he was able to adapt so well after his right hand went just strengthens my stance on his mental fortitude even more.

If you're asking me to pick a fighter to stop him, I'll go with the standard: Bob Foster. He's as much of a stylistic dilemma at that weight as Tommy Hearns was at Welterweight.

[red cobra]

Incidentally, thinking of the Conteh saad fight has got me thinking about Eddie Cotton.He's another guy that hardly ever gets mentioned and he was a damn good boxer-puncher.He gave a mighty effort against Torres when well past his best...a proper clean boxing effort, unlike most of the stuff Hopkins has given us at a similar age.
Where Cotton blew it was in the last round of his fight with Torres, when in the words of a fight writer "he did nothing, in a kingly, regal sort of way"..

[red cobra]

I'd say Saad was definitely at his best for the Conteh fights, what makes you say otherwise Flea?

As for Conteh's durability, I think it was very strong. I wouldn't class him as unstoppable in his prime with as little evidence as we have to prove it either way, but I think he showed that he was the type of fighter that would regroup and come back stronger than ever once hurt. It lit a fire underneath him. His toughness and mentality are just as big a part of my high rating of him as his technical skills were. He really seemed to be the total package before hand and drinking issues slowed him down before we really got to see him at his best. If anything, the fact that he was able to adapt so well after his right hand went just strengthens my stance on his mental fortitude even more.

If you're asking me to pick a fighter to stop him, I'll go with the standard: Bob Foster. He's as much of a stylistic dilemma at that weight as Tommy Hearns was at Welterweight.
Bob Foster was "The Killer Preying Mantis From Mars"..in regards to the lightheavies of his time...a great, and scary guy at the time.

[Flea Man]

I'd say Saad was definitely at his best for the Conteh fights, what makes you say otherwise Flea?

As for Conteh's durability, I think it was very strong. I wouldn't class him as unstoppable in his prime with as little evidence as we have to prove it either way, but I think he showed that he was the type of fighter that would regroup and come back stronger than ever once hurt. It lit a fire underneath him. His toughness and mentality are just as big a part of my high rating of him as his technical skills were. He really seemed to be the total package before hand and drinking issues slowed him down before we really got to see him at his best. If anything, the fact that he was able to adapt so well after his right hand went just strengthens my stance on his mental fortitude even more.

If you're asking me to pick a fighter to stop him, I'll go with the standard: Bob Foster. He's as much of a stylistic dilemma at that weight as Tommy Hearns was at Welterweight.

I'm just getting my dates mixed up Pea.

Good post, what I was looking for from you:good

What do you feel about my theory that Foster was terrified of being hit? Or do you think he was so determined to keep it at his range he almost panicked to re-set himself? I'm talking about Light-Heavy Foster, not the usual 'he got smashed by Frazier' irrelevant bullshit.

Foster was one mean mutha fucker, and luckily for him anyone that tried to follow up any initial success got banged out:lol:

Maybe I'm just overreacting he just seems to overtly flinch when people throw punches at him. He was definitely a very composed fighter, but I just saw him panic a few times when I watched a fair bit of him recently.

[GPater11093]

Cotton is someone I don't know enough about,t hough Greg was telling me about him yesterday.

Have only seen of Torres whats on youtube to be honest. Lovely left hook. Am I remembering correctly that Jose wasn't the most durable? Or am I wrong? Can't remember which poster said it to be honest.

Was I? :huh

Never seen him fight, got a DVD of him I will watch tommorow though.

[dmt]

Ezzard Charles, Sam Langford, Archie Moore, Gene Tunney, Billy Conn, Michael Spinks, Bob Foster, Tommy Loughran, Roy Jones jr and Harold Johnson. There are other notables like Jimmy Bivins, Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Tommy Gibbons.

[red cobra]

I'm just getting my dates mixed up Pea.

Good post, what I was looking for from you:good

What do you feel about my theory that Foster was terrified of being hit? Or do you think he was so determined to keep it at his range he almost panicked to re-set himself? I'm talking about Light-Heavy Foster, not the usual 'he got smashed by Frazier' irrelevant bullshit.

Foster was one mean mutha fucker, and luckily for him anyone that tried to follow up any initial success got banged out:lol:

Maybe I'm just overreacting he just seems to overtly flinch when people throw punches at him. He was definitely a very composed fighter, but I just saw him panic a few times when I watched a fair bit of him recently.
foster had absolutely NO fear of any lightheavies..he was one of the most "I'll knock him dead" type guys I've ever seen in the ring...and with his power, it was easy to see why.

[Flea Man]

foster had absolutely NO fear of any lightheavies..he was one of the most "I'll knock him dead" type guys I've ever seen in the ring...and with his power, it was easy to see why.

I'll find some genuine examples of what I'm talking about Red :good

Just seems to run off when pressured. The only thing I can compare it to is the way Wlad and Vitali panic when under pressure (and yes, despite his decent chin Vitali does shit himself) but maybe it's just him desperately trying to regain range, although, considering he could knock you dead with full extension or just a few inches he needn't bothered:lol:

One of the most terrifying stalkers I have ever had the pleaure to watch, I base my style around him myself (although I love getting hit:nut)

[Flea Man]

Ezzard Charles, Sam Langford, Archie Moore, Gene Tunney, Billy Conn, Michael Spinks, Bob Foster, Tommy Loughran, Roy Jones jr and Harold Johnson. There are other notables like Jimmy Bivins, Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Tommy Gibbons.

Harold Johnson was good but not as good as the others you mentioned.

Don't know enough about Gibbons, but if they haven't already been mentioned Bivins and Qawi are wuality additions:good

[Sweet Pea]

Harold Johnson was good but not as good as the others you mentioned.
Dunno about that. I'd rank him above Jones for instance, quite easily. I think he belongs in that class, actually.

[GPater11093]

Dunno about that. I'd rank him above Jones for instance, quite easily. I think he belongs in that class, actually.

I agree, excellant fighter. He was completly textbook, it makes almost odd viewing as you hardly ever see someone as technically correct as Johnson. A very skilled Boxer-Puncher who could counter well and had a dig in his right hand, watch the second Andrews fight.

[Flea Man]

Dunno about that. I'd rank him above Jones for instance, quite easily. I think he belongs in that class, actually.

SHIT! SHIT! SHIT!


I meant Marvin:good Obviously, damn I hope people allow me that typo:patsch

[Bummy Davis]

Dunno about that. I'd rank him above Jones for instance, quite easily. I think he belongs in that class, actually.

Johnson was excellent and I would rate him above as well

[samsuska]

I can tell you guys are enthused about the light heavies. It's just an observation, thanks to everybody for making a great conversation. Sweet Pea I really value your evaluations of fighters, you have a talent my man. Clearly have put in mindful research with an open mind.

[Sweet Pea]

I can tell you guys are enthused about the light heavies. It's just an observation, thanks to everybody for making a great conversation. Sweet Pea I really value your evaluations of fighters, you have a talent my man. Clearly have put in mindful research with an open mind.Cheers.:good

[young griffo]

Does Virgil Hill warrant a mention?

I know his resume isn't the greatest and he lost to Hearns and Jones but he was a long reigning (I think he had a record number of defenses at Lt Heavy) champion,who posessed some fantastic skills and one of the best jabs you'd ever want to see.

He also went to Germany and partially unified against Henry Maske (which was no mean feat) and also had a late career revival when he won a Cruiserweight strap in dramatic fashion in Fabrice Tiozzo's backyard.

He tends to get overlooked a bit these days I reckon.

[Seamus]

Henry Maske.

[ripper13]

Virgil Hill is Ward's trainer right??

[Flea Man]

no that's a different Virgil.

[turpinr]

where do you rate john henry lewis who would nowadays be a super middle ??

[red cobra]

I'll find some genuine examples of what I'm talking about Red :good

Just seems to run off when pressured. The only thing I can compare it to is the way Wlad and Vitali panic when under pressure (and yes, despite his decent chin Vitali does shit himself) but maybe it's just him desperately trying to regain range, although, considering he could knock you dead with full extension or just a few inches he needn't bothered:lol:

One of the most terrifying stalkers I have ever had the pleaure to watch, I base my style around him myself (although I love getting hit:nut)
The look on Vincente Rondon's face was of pure terror as Foster was stalking him just prior to executing Rondon.

[turpinr]

The look on Vincente Rondon's face was of pure terror as Foster was stalking him just prior to executing Rondon.:goodrondon was terrified and with good reason

[bodhi]

Dunno about that. I'd rank him above Jones for instance, quite easily. I think he belongs in that class, actually.

I totally agree with that. I wouldn´t count Jones to the elite at lhw. Like I wrote already earlier in this thread.


Does Virgil Hill warrant a mention?

I know his resume isn't the greatest and he lost to Hearns and Jones but he was a long reigning (I think he had a record number of defenses at Lt Heavy) champion,who posessed some fantastic skills and one of the best jabs you'd ever want to see.

He also went to Germany and partially unified against Henry Maske (which was no mean feat) and also had a late career revival when he won a Cruiserweight strap in dramatic fashion in Fabrice Tiozzo's backyard.

He tends to get overlooked a bit these days I reckon.

He also got beaten by Michaelchwski. But fighting Maske, Michaelchewski and Jones in a row is a bit of a risk. :lol:
Virgil Hill is not elite but I would rank him inside the top20. Just behind DM and Jones.

Maske is in the same mold as Tarver and (Glen) Johnson I think. As somebody mentioned him.


where do you rate john henry lewis who would nowadays be a super middle ??

Not quite elite but not that far behind imo.

[The Morlocks]

another ltheavy that warrants a call and would have been trouble for anybody was James Scott