Who are the Top 15 Latin American Fighters in History?.

[VX.Nefarious]

?

Resume wise and Skill wise.

Post the top 15 and Discuss :rasta

[VX.Nefarious]

Duran
Arguello
Chavez
Monzon
Gavilan
Locche
Ortiz
Gomez
Jofre
Napoles
Chocolate
Sanchez
Canto
Benitez
Lora
Zarate

some of best of L.A.

who did i leave out? please enlighten me.

[anarci]

Duran
Arguello
Chavez
Monzon
Gavilan
Locche
Ortiz
Gomez
Jofre
Napoles
Chocolate
Sanchez
Canto
Benitez
Lora
Zarate

some of best of L.A.

who did i leave out? please enlighten me. Are Manny Ortiz and Delahoya allowed, or do they have to be from Latin American Countries?

[VX.Nefarious]

Are Manny Ortiz and Delahoya allowed, or do they have to be from Latin American Countries?



Yes! let it be known they're U.S. born and raised, but still include 15 L.A. Fighters.

[anarci]

1.Roberto Duran Panama
2.Julio Cesar Chavez Mexico
3.Salvador Sanchez Mexico
4.Alexis Arguello Nicaragua
5.Ricardo Lopez Mexico
5.Carlos Monzon Argentina
7.Oscar Delahoya East La,Ca
8.Ruben Olivares Mexico
9.Eder Jofre Brazil
10.Jose Napoloes Cuba
11.Kid Gavilan Cuba
12.Wilfredo Gomez Puerto Rico
13.Marco A Barrera Mexico
14.Carlos Ortiz New York,Ny
15.Manuel Ortiz Corona,Ca
15. Erik Morales Mexico

I know im gonna hear it from you guys but IDGAF:lol:

[sweet_scientist]

Luis Rodriguez should be way, way up these lists.

[anarci]

Luis Rodriguez should be way, way up these lists. I got him around 20. I had Benitez and Zarate just outside the list.

[VX.Nefarious]

1.Roberto Duran Panama
2.Julio Cesar Chavez Mexico
3.Salvador Sanchez Mexico
4.Alexis Arguello Nicaragua
5.Ricardo Lopez Mexico
5.Carlos Monzon Argentina
7.Oscar Delahoya East La,Ca
8.Ruben Olivares Mexico
9.Eder Jofre Brazil
10.Jose Napoloes Cuba
11.Kid Gavilan Cuba
12.Wilfredo Gomez Puerto Rico
13.Marco A Barrera Mexico
14.Carlos Ortiz New York,Ny
15.Manuel Ortiz Corona,Ca
15. Erik Morales Mexico

I know im gonna hear it from you guys but IDGAF:lol:

Lopez ahead of Monzon? resume wise really?

[VX.Nefarious]

Luis Rodriguez should be way, way up these lists.

drop yo list my niga:rasta

[bodhi]

1.Roberto Duran Panama
4.Julio Cesar Chavez Mexico
5.Salvador Sanchez Mexico
3.Alexis Arguello Nicaragua
8.Ricardo Lopez Mexico
2.Carlos Monzon Argentina
12.Oscar Delahoya East La,Ca
10.Ruben Olivares Mexico
7.Eder Jofre Brazil
6.Jose Napoloes Cuba
11.Kid Gavilan Cuba
14.Wilfredo Gomez Puerto Rico
15.Marco A Barrera Mexico
13.Carlos Ortiz New York,Ny
9. Luis Manuel Rodriguez


Fixed :good

[sweet_scientist]

drop yo list my niga:rasta

This is my list based on resume, dominance, longevity and character. If I did it based on skill it would be somewhat different and would require some more thought, so it's not exactly what you are asking for but it's what I'll put up here nonetheless.

1. Roberto Duran
2. Kid Gavilan
3. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
4. Julio Cesar Chavez
5. Carlos Monzon
6. Vicente Saldivar
7. Eder Jofre
8. Jose Napoles
9. Carlos Ortiz
10. Nicolino Locche
11. Alexis Arguello
12. Miguel Canto
13. Ruben Olivares
14. Ernesto Marcel
15. Salvador Sanchez
16. Wilfredo Gomez
17. Victor Galindez
18. Carlos Zarate
19. Wilfred Benitez
20. Kid Chocolate
21. Antonio Cervantes
22. Esteban DeJesus
23. Felix Trinidad
24. Eusebio Pedroza
25. Panama Al Brown
26. Pascual Perez
27. Ismael Laguna
28. Cocoa Kid

I could keep going there's plenty more: Miguel Lora, Santos Laciar, Hilario Zapata, Baby Arizmendi, Ricardo Lopez, Rodolfo Gonzalez, Pedro Montanez, Jose Medel, Chucho Castillo, Lupe Pintor, Horacio Accavallo, Sugar Ramos, Kid Azteca, Antonio Gomez, Guty Espadas, Rafael Herrera, Fidel Bassa, Betulio Gonzalez, Erik Morales, Marco Antonio Barrera, Juan Manuel Marquez, Gilberto Roman, Raul Macias and I'm sure I've missed out plenty more.

[bodhi]

This is my list based on resume, dominance, longevity and character. If I did it based on skill it would be somewhat different and would require some more thought, so it's not exactly what you are asking for but it's what I'll put up here nonetheless.


What do you mean by character?

[sweet_scientist]

What do you mean by character?

One gets points for character if they do things like:
- Take risks (e.g. fight everyone in and around their weight division and not duck opponents, offer rematches, go out on their shields in an effort to win fights rather than hold on just to survive etc)
- Overcome adversity.
- Bear up well to adversity even if they don't win (and this is shown by the ability to take an ass whipping when it's your way coming, so durability counts here).

[bodhi]

One gets points for character if they do things like:
- Take risks (e.g. fight everyone in and around their weight division and not duck opponents, offer rematches, go out on their shields in an effort to win fights rather than hold on just to survive etc)
- Overcome adversity.
- Bear up well to adversity even if they don't win (and this is shown by the ability to take an ass whipping when it's your way coming, so durability counts here).

Ah, thanks for the clarification :good

[anarci]

Lopez ahead of Monzon? resume wise really?
No have them tied cause although Monzon beat better opposition and is a top 4 mw, i still dont think he was as good a fighter as Lopez. If Lopez was a MW hed beat him and if you want to talk about all of Monzons defenses well he has 14 to Lopez 23. Griffith was past it,Napoloes was way outsized, so dont overrated his resume to much. Dont get me wrong he still beat some other really good fighters like Valdes,Briscoe,Benvernuti,Watch a tape of both of them fight and can you honestly tell me he was better than Lopez? Id say no but i put them even cause i know that there are a lot of arguments as to why Monzon should be higher.

[Flea Man]

Anarci is straying into Rooster territory.

[anarci]

One gets points for character if they do things like:
- Take risks (e.g. fight everyone in and around their weight division and not duck opponents, offer rematches, go out on their shields in an effort to win fights rather than hold on just to survive etc)
- Overcome adversity.
- Bear up well to adversity even if they don't win (and this is shown by the ability to take an ass whipping when it's your way coming, so durability counts here).
Why dont you have Delahoya or Manny Ortiz on your list:huh Especially since Delahoya "took RIsk". Also cant see how you can have Marcel above Salvador Sanchez.

[Flea Man]

No have them tied cause although Monzon beat better opposition and is a top 4 mw, i still dont think he was as good a fighter as Lopez. If Lopez was a MW hed beat him and if you want to talk about all of Monzons defenses well he has 14 to Lopez 23. Griffith was past it,Napoloes was way outsized, so dont overrated his resume to much. Dont get me wrong he still beat some other really good fighters like Valdes,Briscoe,Benvernuti,Watch a tape of both of them fight and can you honestly tell me he was better than Lopez? Id say no but i put them even cause i know that there are a lot of arguments as to why Monzon should be higher.

:huh-Lined

Bold-Yes.

[anarci]

Anarci is straying into Rooster territory.
Talking smack but i dont see you having the Balls to put up a list.

Let me guess if you did, you would probably survey all of the other Classic list and make a "Politically correct" list so that everyone can agree with you.

[ricardoparker93]

1. Roberto Duran
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Alexis Arguello
4. Julio Cesar Chavez
5. Salvador Sanchez
6. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Carlos Ortiz
9. Jose Napoles
10. Niccolino Locche
11. Eder Jofre
12. Wilfredo Gomez
13. Ruben Olivares
14. Vicente Saldivar
15. Miguel Canto

[ricardoparker93]

A mix of my thoughts and political correctness anarci ha

[Flea Man]

Talking smack but i dont see you having the Balls to put up a list.

Let me guess if you did, you would probably survey all of the other Classic list and make a "Politically correct" list so that everyone can agree with you.

Not really. I just wouldn't be completely biased like you are.

I genuinely have no idea what my genuine list would be mate. And you are straying into Rooster territory.

People often disagree with me, and I also have the 'balls' to admit when I don't know something or am unsure. Not run off to Boxrec like you do.

[anarci]

Not really. I just wouldn't be completely biased like you are.

I genuinely have no idea what my genuine list would be mate. And you are straying into Rooster territory.

People often disagree with me, and I also have the 'balls' to admit when I don't know something or am unsure. Not run off to Boxrec like you do.
Like i said before wait and you will see my boxing knowledge is Light Years ahead of you. The only time i check on Box Rec is when im not a 100% on something. But i am not lost on any of the subjects brought up on here. Why dont you go to that thread "who am I" on the General forum were every one quizes each other. You will see that No one Can fuck with me. Ask Sweet Pea:yep

[Flea Man]

Like i said before wait and you will see my boxing knowledge is Light Years ahead of you. The only time i check on Box Rec is when im not a 100% on something. But i am not lost on any of the subjects brought up on here. Why dont you go to that thread "who am I" on the General forum were every one quizes each other. You will see that No one Can fuck with me. Ask Sweet Pea:yep

Hey, I REALLY, REALLY appreciate your input. The knowledge you have is awesome, and from first hand experience as well.

Just think you are biased towards certain fighters, thats all. And wehn someone is super stubborn it can be very frustrating debating with them.

BOLD: You also need to get off your high horse pal, pretentious as fuck.

[anarci]

Hey, I REALLY, REALLY appreciate your input. The knowledge you have is awesome, and from first hand experience as well.

Just think you are biased towards certain fighters, thats all. And wehn someone is super stubborn it can be very frustrating debating with them.

BOLD: You also need to get off your high horse pal, pretentious as fuck.
:lol::lol: Fair enough I only get on my high Horse with you, when you refer to me always referring to Box Records. Ill admit i get worked up on that one:yep Ive been told im biased by a couple other friends and family who are boxing fans. They think i overrate Oscar and some other fighters. However i dont feel that way maybe the boxers i like is cause i just see how good they are. There are boxers i cant stand who i rate very high, like Pernell Whittaker,and maybe a few others. :good

[Flea Man]

:lol::lol: Fair enough I only get on my high Horse with you, when you refer to me always referring to Box Records. Ill admit i get worked up on that one:yep Ive been told im biased by a couple other friends and family who are boxing fans. They think i overrate Oscar and some other fighters. However i dont feel that way maybe the boxers i like is cause i just see how good they are. There are boxers i cant stand who i rate very high, like Pernell Whittaker,and maybe a few others. :good

Right. So, if we disagree in the future, I won't call you a 'cocksucker' or a 'nuthugger':lol:just don't get all 'I'm older than you' f'n annoying man. :good

EDIT: or call me McLovin :rofl

[GPater11093]

This is my list based on resume, dominance, longevity and character. If I did it based on skill it would be somewhat different and would require some more thought, so it's not exactly what you are asking for but it's what I'll put up here nonetheless.

1. Roberto Duran
2. Kid Gavilan
3. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
4. Julio Cesar Chavez
5. Carlos Monzon
6. Vicente Saldivar
7. Eder Jofre
8. Jose Napoles
9. Carlos Ortiz
10. Nicolino Locche
11. Alexis Arguello
12. Miguel Canto
13. Ruben Olivares
14. Ernesto Marcel
15. Salvador Sanchez
16. Wilfredo Gomez
17. Victor Galindez
18. Carlos Zarate
19. Wilfred Benitez
20. Kid Chocolate
21. Antonio Cervantes
22. Esteban DeJesus
23. Felix Trinidad
24. Eusebio Pedroza
25. Panama Al Brown
26. Pascual Perez
27. Ismael Laguna
28. Cocoa Kid

I could keep going there's plenty more: Miguel Lora, Santos Laciar, Hilario Zapata, Baby Arizmendi, Ricardo Lopez, Rodolfo Gonzalez, Pedro Montanez, Jose Medel, Chucho Castillo, Lupe Pintor, Horacio Accavallo, Sugar Ramos, Kid Azteca, Antonio Gomez, Guty Espadas, Rafael Herrera, Fidel Bassa, Betulio Gonzalez, Erik Morales, Marco Antonio Barrera, Juan Manuel Marquez, Gilberto Roman, Raul Macias and I'm sure I've missed out plenty more.

Excellant list cant disagree

[Flea Man]

Sweet Scientist, that is a quality list. I'd have Arguello above Locche, Sanchez above Marcel (though glad to see him getting some kudos :good) but I won't dissect it further; you always have your reasons and that is a solid list.

Personally I'd have Ricardo Lopez in there, but I can see how he could be left out. Especially when Zapata, Pintor, Barrera (who I'd definitely find a place for) didn't make the cut.

[GPater11093]

Sweet Scientist, that is a quality list. I'd have Arguello above Locche, Sanchez above Marcel (though glad to see him getting some kudos :good) but I won't dissect it further; you always have your reasons and that is a solid list.

Personally I'd have Ricardo Lopez in there, but I can see how he could be left out. Especially when Zapata, Pintor, Barrera (who I'd definitely find a place for) didn't make the cut.

I agree there. Might even have Arguello above carlos Ortiz.

[sweet_scientist]

Excellant list cant disagree

Thanks G

Sweet Scientist, that is a quality list. I'd have Arguello above Locche, Sanchez above Marcel (though glad to see him getting some kudos :good) but I won't dissect it further; you always have your reasons and that is a solid list.Cheers flea, and those calls are totally reasonable.

Personally I'd have Ricardo Lopez in there, but I can see how he could be left out. Especially when Zapata, Pintor, Barrera (who I'd definitely find a place for) didn't make the cut.I'd probably find a spot for the likes of Barrera and Morales eventually, but I'm putting off from giving them a final ranking place as of yet. I've got no problem with anyone that has Lopez in there, especially if we are talking ability and skill, but my list has a big emphasis on resume and I feel Ricardo has quite a gap there between himself and the other guys ranked above him.

[Flea Man]

I agree there. Might even have Arguello above carlos Ortiz.

Last tiem I checked I had Arguello at 26 and Ortiz at 28. My list has changed drastically now, though I feel they still both live in the same bracket, I'm really gonna' try and get my top 50 done soon, just to stop the noises in my head:lol:

Ortiz will probably fit better into the 30-35 bracket now I think of it. I think that's why we haven't seen Manassa for a while, his top 100 was insane and his criteria dense and well thought out. Must've sent him mad :rofl

[GPater11093]

Last tiem I checked I had Arguello at 26 and Ortiz at 28. My list has changed drastically now, though I feel they still both live in the same bracket, I'm really gonna' try and get my top 50 done soon, just to stop the noises in my head:lol:

Ortiz will probably fit better into the 30-35 bracket now I think of it. I think that's why we haven't seen Manassa for a while, his top 100 was insane and his criteria dense and well thought out. Must've sent him mad :rofl

Thats fair enough rankings IMO.

[sugarsean]

1. Roberto Duran
2. Salvador Sanchez
3. Wilfred Benitez
4. Julio Cesar Chavez
5. Carlos Monzon
6. Kid Gavilan
7. Alexis Arguello
8. Wilfredo Gomez
9. Marco Antonio Barrera
10. Erik Morales

[The Morlocks]

One gets points for character if they do things like:
- Take risks (e.g. fight everyone in and around their weight division and not duck opponents, offer rematches, go out on their shields in an effort to win fights rather than hold on just to survive etc)
- Overcome adversity.
- Bear up well to adversity even if they don't win (and this is shown by the ability to take an ass whipping when it's your way coming, so durability counts here).
BASICALLY EVERYTHING MAYWEATHER DOESN'T DO!:viking

[The Morlocks]

Right. So, if we disagree in the future, I won't call you a 'cocksucker' or a 'nuthugger':lol:just don't get all 'I'm older than you' f'n annoying man. :good

EDIT: or call me McLovin :rofl
BUT W/ AGE AND SEEING MORE FIGHTS AND ACTUALLY GOING TO THE FIGHTS INSTEAD OF WATCHING YOUTUBE, YOU SEE AND LEARN THE NUANCES OF THESE FIGHTERS. sOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY HAVE LIVED THRU THE TIME OF A FIGHTER TO ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT HE MEANT TO THE TIME HE WAS IN. HOW CAN ANYONE RESPECT SOMEONES OPINION WHEN THAT PERSON HASN'T EVEN SEEN THE CAREERS OF THE FIGHTERS THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT OR BEEN IN TO THEIR FIGHTS OR SEEN THEM TRAIN, ETC. NOTHING IS WORSE THAN SOMEONE YOUNG LIKE SAY 25 AND UNDER TELLING POSTERS WHO'VE LIVED THRU IT THAT THEY DON'T KNOW THEIR SHIT, WHEN ALL THEIR KNOWLEDGE IS SECOND HAND OFF OF BOXREC OR YOU TUBE OR WHAT OTHERS HAVE SAID. that IS WHAT IS really PRETENTIOUS:rasta

[bodhi]

BUT W/ AGE AND SEEING MORE FIGHTS AND ACTUALLY GOING TO THE FIGHTS INSTEAD OF WATCHING YOUTUBE, YOU SEE AND LEARN THE NUANCES OF THESE FIGHTERS. sOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY HAVE LIVED THRU THE TIME OF A FIGHTER TO ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT HE MEANT TO THE TIME HE WAS IN. HOW CAN ANYONE RESPECT SOMEONES OPINION WHEN THAT PERSON HASN'T EVEN SEEN THE CAREERS OF THE FIGHTERS THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT OR BEEN IN TO THEIR FIGHTS OR SEEN THEM TRAIN, ETC. NOTHING IS WORSE THAN SOMEONE YOUNG LIKE SAY 25 AND UNDER TELLING POSTERS WHO'VE LIVED THRU IT THAT THEY DON'T KNOW THEIR SHIT, WHEN ALL THEIR KNOWLEDGE IS SECOND HAND OFF OF BOXREC OR YOU TUBE OR WHAT OTHERS HAVE SAID. that IS WHAT IS really PRETENTIOUS:rasta

So, you have lived through the careers of all the fighters you talk about, I guess?

[Mantequilla]

BUT W/ AGE AND SEEING MORE FIGHTS AND ACTUALLY GOING TO THE FIGHTS INSTEAD OF WATCHING YOUTUBE, YOU SEE AND LEARN THE NUANCES OF THESE FIGHTERS. sOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY HAVE LIVED THRU THE TIME OF A FIGHTER TO ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT HE MEANT TO THE TIME HE WAS IN. HOW CAN ANYONE RESPECT SOMEONES OPINION WHEN THAT PERSON HASN'T EVEN SEEN THE CAREERS OF THE FIGHTERS THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT OR BEEN IN TO THEIR FIGHTS OR SEEN THEM TRAIN, ETC. NOTHING IS WORSE THAN SOMEONE YOUNG LIKE SAY 25 AND UNDER TELLING POSTERS WHO'VE LIVED THRU IT THAT THEY DON'T KNOW THEIR SHIT, WHEN ALL THEIR KNOWLEDGE IS SECOND HAND OFF OF BOXREC OR YOU TUBE OR WHAT OTHERS HAVE SAID. that IS WHAT IS really PRETENTIOUS:rasta

As long as someone has watched the fighters\fights, or done their research if it's an old timer with little to no footage, then anyone should be allowed their opinion.Doesn't mean it will be a worthy opinion, but that's somthing t judge on a person by person basis imo.

[Sweet Pea]

Well, the thread stated Latin American but I guess if everyone else is doing an all Latino list, I'll give it a go:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Jose Napoles
4. Carlos Ortiz
5. Eder Jofre
6. Luis Rodriguez
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Alexis Arguello
9. Vicente Saldivar
10. Ruben Olivares
11. Julio Cesar Chavez
12. Manuel Ortiz
13. Kid Chocolate
14. Nicolino Locche
15. Salvador Sanchez
16. Wilfredo Gomez
17. Miguel Canto
18. Pascual Perez
19. Carlos Zarate
20. Cocoa Kid
21. Panama Al Brown
22. Ismael Laguna
23. Wilfred Benitez
24. Eusebio Pedroza
25. Ernesto Marcel
26. Oscar De La Hoya
27. Ricardo Lopez
28. Jose Basora
29. Pedro Montanez
30. Baby Arizmendi

Narrowly missing the cut: Felix Trinidad, Kid Azteca, Victor Galindez, Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, etc. etc.

[anarci]

BUT W/ AGE AND SEEING MORE FIGHTS AND ACTUALLY GOING TO THE FIGHTS INSTEAD OF WATCHING YOUTUBE, YOU SEE AND LEARN THE NUANCES OF THESE FIGHTERS. sOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY HAVE LIVED THRU THE TIME OF A FIGHTER TO ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT HE MEANT TO THE TIME HE WAS IN. HOW CAN ANYONE RESPECT SOMEONES OPINION WHEN THAT PERSON HASN'T EVEN SEEN THE CAREERS OF THE FIGHTERS THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT OR BEEN IN TO THEIR FIGHTS OR SEEN THEM TRAIN, ETC. NOTHING IS WORSE THAN SOMEONE YOUNG LIKE SAY 25 AND UNDER TELLING POSTERS WHO'VE LIVED THRU IT THAT THEY DON'T KNOW THEIR SHIT, WHEN ALL THEIR KNOWLEDGE IS SECOND HAND OFF OF BOXREC OR YOU TUBE OR WHAT OTHERS HAVE SAID. that IS WHAT IS really PRETENTIOUS:rasta:deal:deal:lol::lol::good:good Now that might be the best "TELL EM LIKE IT IS POST" that i have ever seen on ESB:clap::clap::clap: You were Spot ON:good I respect the enthusiasm of many of the younger posters on the classic forum and most are very knowledgeable on this forum. However it fucking irks me sometimes when they are telling me about certain fighters that I followed and know about before some of them were born or ever watched a fight. If you wanna tell me about Pascual Perez since youve seen footage of them fine but dont try and school me on any of the fighters from the late 70s 80s 90s etc(In fact i learned about the oldtimers too when i was young i just didnt have the benefit of the internet back then had to rely on footage from Jim Jacobs or Espn or documentries) Now if you wanna debate me on current fighters fine your opinion counts the same. But being a die hard fan when these guys were fighting you get a feel for the game,somethin you havent experienced.

Just picture the 2030and some 20 year old kid is trying to school you about Pac,Mayweather,Delahoya,Klitchkos,Barreras moreless then you will know what we are talking about.

[Flea Man]

You have to be open minded Anarci. Just because someone is young doesn't mean tey don'thave a clue and doesn't mean you're always right.

Cn you see what I mean? By your means of logic none of us should discuss Langford as we weren't there. I just don't see the difference between reading old magazines/newspaper articles and watching old fights to get a perspective and mixing in the perspective of someone who was actually there (i.e you :good) and have a discusion about it.

What I'm asking is, if anyone tries to pass comment are you always going to use 'you weren't there' as a means of shunning their opinion? If so, a bit harsh mate.

I CAN see where you're coming from; just don't think it's night and day as you seem to think it is :good

[anarci]

Well, the thread stated Latin American but I guess if everyone else is doing an all Latino list, I'll give it a go:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Jose Napoles
4. Carlos Ortiz
5. Eder Jofre
6. Luis Rodriguez
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Alexis Arguello
9. Vicente Saldivar
10. Ruben Olivares
11. Julio Cesar Chavez
12. Manuel Ortiz
13. Kid Chocolate
14. Nicolino Locche
15. Salvador Sanchez
16. Wilfredo Gomez
17. Miguel Canto
18. Pascual Perez
19. Carlos Zarate
20. Cocoa Kid
21. Panama Al Brown
22. Ismael Laguna
23. Wilfred Benitez
24. Eusebio Pedroza
25. Ernesto Marcel
26. Oscar De La Hoya
27. Ricardo Lopez
28. Jose Basora
29. Pedro Montanez
30. Baby Arizmendi

Narrowly missing the cut: Felix Trinidad, Kid Azteca, Victor Galindez, Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, etc. etc.:nono:nono Not a good list in my opinion, however im sure you will say the same about mine as ares are very different. So i guess you think Cocoa kid,Marcel, and quite a few of the other guys have better resumes than a 5 division champ with extraordinary skills like Delahoya huh?. I dont know sweet pea if i dont know you were so young i would think you are a 80year old geezer that thought all fighters today are tomato cans. I mean you must really think todays fighters are inferior. My pops is 60 years old and been a hard core fan since Floyd Patterson,Tiger,Carlos Ortiz were barely coming on the scene and he is alot more complimentry of todays fighter and realist when it comes to comparing greats from the past to current elite fighters.

Also the thread said it was okay to list latino fighters from the US since the are Latinos who live in America.

[Flea Man]

I must say Cocoa Kid has a pretty tremendous resume.

[sweet_scientist]

Why dont you have Delahoya or Manny Ortiz on your list:huh Especially since Delahoya "took RIsk". Also cant see how you can have Marcel above Salvador Sanchez.

Left em out because they are from the US, not because they weren't good enough to make the list.

Marcel was an outstanding fighter, I'm happy with his placement, even though i can see the argument for having Sal higher.

[essexboy]

1. Roberto Duran
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Kid Gavilan
4. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
5. Eder Jofre
6. Alexis Arguello
7. Jose Napoles
8. Salvador Sanchez
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Carlos Ortiz
11. Wilfredo Gomez
12. Wilfred Benitez
13. Ruben Olivares
14. Vicente Saldivar
15. Carlos Zarate

Like most lists this one changes daily.

[anarci]

You have to be open minded Anarci. Just because someone is young doesn't mean tey don'thave a clue and doesn't mean you're always right.

Cn you see what I mean? By your means of logic none of us should discuss Langford as we weren't there. I just don't see the difference between reading old magazines/newspaper articles and watching old fights to get a perspective and mixing in the perspective of someone who was actually there (i.e you :good) and have a discusion about it.

What I'm asking is, if anyone tries to pass comment are you always going to use 'you weren't there' as a means of shunning their opinion? If so, a bit harsh mate.

I CAN see where you're coming from; just don't think it's night and day as you seem to think it is :good Yey i see your point i mean i respect a young fans opinion , i just agreed with Morlocks post so much i thought i just added some more to it. As far as being a historian hey i wasnt around back in the old days either but i consider myself knowledgeable on old timers, but ive know old timers that were in the boxing game and were around back in the Lamotta,Robinson, Joe louis days and i always soak up as much as i can from them. But na im not gonna shun no ones opinion as long as they dont come of in a Condescending tone.

[Flea Man]

Yey i see your point i mean i respect a young fans opinion , i just agreed with Morlocks post so much i thought i just added some more to it. As far as being a historian hey i wasnt around back in the old days either but i consider myself knowledgeable on old timers, but ive know old timers that were in the boxing game and were around back in the Lamotta,Robinson, Joe louis days and i always soak up as much as i can from them. But na im not gonna shun no ones opinion as long as they dont come of in a Condescending tone.

That's more than fair. I know what you mean you don't want anyone to say 'you don't know what you're talking about' rather than 'fair enough but here's how I see it'. Am I right?

We need to find some middle ground:lol:

Anyway, on that thread we were discussing Perez I gve you some more info :good

[Sweet Pea]

:nono:nono Not a good list in my opinion, however im sure you will say the same about mine as ares are very different. So i guess you think Cocoa kid,Marcel, and quite a few of the other guys have better resumes than a 5 division champ with extraordinary skills like Delahoya huh?. I dont know sweet pea if i dont know you were so young i would think you are a 80year old geezer that thought all fighters today are tomato cans. I mean you must really think todays fighters are inferior. My pops is 60 years old and been a hard core fan since Floyd Patterson,Tiger,Carlos Ortiz were barely coming on the scene and he is alot more complimentry of todays fighter and realist when it comes to comparing greats from the past to current elite fighters.

Also the thread said it was okay to list latino fighters from the US since the are Latinos who live in America.

Cocoa Kid definitely has a better resume than De La Hoya, yes.

And yes, based on the wealth of footage I've watched and studied, and am still watching and studying, and will continue to watch and study, I believe the golden ages of boxing to have passed us by.

I'd say the sport's prime ended sometime in the 80's for the most part. The 90's had some exceptional talent as well, but for the most part seemed a bit lacking in comparison overall. Since then it would appear there's been an even bigger drop off in talent. Though of course there are always fighters that are exceptions to the rule, they seem fewer and further between these days. Pacquiao has been the guy most would believe to have been bringing boxing back, and the closest thing we've seen to a true phenom in boxing since a prime Roy Jones. Now even his career's under speculation.

When you compare even the contenders of the 70's and 80's to the champions of today, I think it's pretty obvious the sport has fallen off quite a bit, which is one of the reasons I'm not all that big into the modern game.

[anarci]

I must say Cocoa Kid has a pretty tremendous resume. Yey he did have many good wins. But no way should he be rated above Delahoya.

I also find it amazing that Morales or Barrera werent on that list.

[anarci]

That's more than fair. I know what you mean you don't want anyone to say 'you don't know what you're talking about' rather than 'fair enough but here's how I see it'. Am I right?

We need to find some middle ground:lol:

Anyway, on that thread we were discussing Perez I gve you some more info :good Yey you right i cant go for no youngster telling me shit like that, I could see if i were a casual fan or something but when ive been a die hard fan for so long that when i was 12years old i use to have grown ups picking my mind for boxing info and that was 27 years ago!!! So i im like:patsch when someone says "you dont know what youre talking about"

Ok ive known of Perez and his legacy since i was a kid, but i just have not seen too much footage on him. So what info are you talking about?

[anarci]

Cocoa Kid definitely has a better resume than De La Hoya, yes.

And yes, based on the wealth of footage I've watched and studied, and am still watching and studying, and will continue to watch and study, I believe the golden ages of boxing to have passed us by.

I'd say the sport's prime ended sometime in the 80's for the most part. The 90's had some exceptional talent as well, but for the most part seemed a bit lacking in comparison overall. Since then it would appear there's been an even bigger drop off in talent. Though of course there are always fighters that are exceptions to the rule, they seem fewer and further between these days. Pacquiao has been the guy most would believe to have been bringing boxing back, and the closest thing we've seen to a true phenom in boxing since a prime Roy Jones. Now even his career's under speculation.

When you compare even the contenders of the 70's and 80's to the champions of today, I think it's pretty obvious the sport has fallen off quite a bit, which is one of the reasons I'm not all that big into the modern game.
For the most part i agree with you but Cocoa kid did not have a better resume than Delahoya and i would post both of their resumes but to tell u the truth im tired of doing so, I think ive been there done that quite a few times on ESB and ive only been here like 6months! To much typing maybe ill get back to it later.

As for the rest of what you said about the drop off in talent well i agree with you as far as outside the elite. What i mean by that is sure many contenders from the past would be good champs today, but the Pacs,May,Del,jones,hopk,Barr,Moraless would be great fighters in any era in fact all of those guys i just mentioned would beat alot of atgs.

you are correct though the Talent is nowhere near as deep as yesteryear. Only at the top.

[Flea Man]

Anarci, you asked for links to footage of Perez. I've given you info on how to get some (well pretty much any footage that exists) :good

[anarci]

Anarci, you asked for links to footage of Perez. I've given you info on how to get some (well pretty much any footage that exists) :good YEy thanks i remembered that after i posted:lol::good

[Flea Man]

Right, as my iphone was having a mad moment, my point is, if Oscar fought as often as Cocoa did and had series' with all the best fighters he fought, would his resume appear as it does now?

I for one believe he wouldn't have won legitimate World titles in the day of 1`, not as many as he did anyway. Also, what weight would Oscar fight at? He couldn't drain himself, at his peak he may have had to fight as a fully fledged middle.

A totally different argument, mind you. But what I'm saying is you must take into account the time in which the Kid fought.

Just seen that Pea has posted that apparently a lot of Cocoa's fights were fixed. I didn't know it was to that extent in all honesty.

What I'm saying is, aesthetically at least, would De La Hoya's resume look anywhere as good if he had fought in Cocoa's era? I suspect not.
For me the fact that Cocoa came off so well in his series with Holman Williams bumps him above De La Hoya. However,y ou can only go by which era they fought in, I just feel that Cocoa fought the better opponents.

I wouldn't necessarily rank him over De La Hoya though. Just giving my two cents :good

[Sweet Pea]

For the most part i agree with you but Cocoa kid did not have a better resume than Delahoya and i would post both of their resumes but to tell u the truth im tired of doing so

Allow me. We'll use their Boxrec records, considering a lot of Hoya's wins and losses were controversial, and Cocoa Kid is one of the most notorious mob ran fighters in the history of the sport.

Cocoa Kid fought: Archie Moore (0-1), Charley Burley (0-1-1), Holman Williams (8-3-2), Eddie Booker (1-0), Lou Ambers (0-1), Kid Kaplan (1-0), Bert Lytell (0-3), Chalky Wright (1-0), Kid Azteca (0-2-1), Georgie Abrams (0-1), Jack Chase (1-0), Aaron Wade (0-1), Wes Ramey (0-1), Joe Carter (2-3), Oakland Billy Smith (1 NC), Battling Battalino (0-1), Slugger White (1-0), Frankie Britt (2-2), Jimmy Leto (1-3), Izzy Jannazzo (0-2), Jack Portney (3-0), California Jackie Wilson (1-0), Joe Legon (0-1), Eddie Dolan (1-0), Joe Ghnouly (0-0-1), Johnny Jadick (1-0), etc.

Oscar De La Hoya fought: Pernell Whitaker (1-0), Manny Pacquiao (0-1), Bernard Hopkins (0-1), Floyd Mayweather Jr. (0-1), Shane Mosley (0-2), Felix Trinidad (0-1), Ike Quartey (1-0), Fernando Vargas (1-0), Julio Cesar Chavez (2-0), Hector Camacho (1-0), Ricardo Mayorga (1-0), Oba Carr (1-0), Genaro Hernandez (1-0), Miguel Angel Gonzalez (1-0), Arturo Gatti (1-0), Yori Boy Campas (1-0), John John Molina (1-0), Jesse James Leija (1-0), etc.

Oscar's controversial losses are nullified by his controversial wins, so his record would've panned out about the same against the field regardless. There's no question that Kid fought a higher class of opposition, and in much higher quantity than Oscar. The only question mark on his career is to how good he actually was at his very best, considering he was in the back pocket of the mob and it's an uncertainty as to how many of his losses were fixed. The kind of opponents he was able to beat when the fights were on the level shows how talented and capable he was, the series with Holman Williams in particular. He also beat Eddie Booker in the two's only meeting. His success against the rest of the Murderer's Row really stands out, considering it would be a lot more likely that these bouts were on the level than those involving Kid and high profile white fighters and the like. The only guy among the group to get conclusively the better of him was the larger Bert Lytell at the very end of Kid's career.

[GPater11093]

:nono:nono Not a good list in my opinion, however im sure you will say the same about mine as ares are very different. So i guess you think Cocoa kid,Marcel, and quite a few of the other guys have better resumes than a 5 division champ with extraordinary skills like Delahoya huh?. I dont know sweet pea if i dont know you were so young i would think you are a 80year old geezer that thought all fighters today are tomato cans. I mean you must really think todays fighters are inferior. My pops is 60 years old and been a hard core fan since Floyd Patterson,Tiger,Carlos Ortiz were barely coming on the scene and he is alot more complimentry of todays fighter and realist when it comes to comparing greats from the past to current elite fighters.

Also the thread said it was okay to list latino fighters from the US since the are Latinos who live in America.

I thought it was a good list. I think Cocoa Kid is alot better fighter than De La Hoya aswell as Marcel.

[ricardoparker93]

I personally dont feel that De la Hoya belongs on an all time list of the top 15 latin fighters. He was very good but fell short of elite ATG status; and elite ATG's are who belong on this list.

[VX.Nefarious]

One gets points for character if they do things like:
- Take risks (e.g. fight everyone in and around their weight division and not duck opponents, offer rematches, go out on their shields in an effort to win fights rather than hold on just to survive etc)
- Overcome adversity.
- Bear up well to adversity even if they don't win (and this is shown by the ability to take an ass whipping when it's your way coming, so durability counts here).

nice
i wonder how many others take this into account?

[BlueApollo]

Cocoa Kid definitely has a better resume than De La Hoya, yes.

And yes, based on the wealth of footage I've watched and studied, and am still watching and studying, and will continue to watch and study, I believe the golden ages of boxing to have passed us by.

I'd say the sport's prime ended sometime in the 80's for the most part. The 90's had some exceptional talent as well, but for the most part seemed a bit lacking in comparison overall. Since then it would appear there's been an even bigger drop off in talent. Though of course there are always fighters that are exceptions to the rule, they seem fewer and further between these days. Pacquiao has been the guy most would believe to have been bringing boxing back, and the closest thing we've seen to a true phenom in boxing since a prime Roy Jones. Now even his career's under speculation.

When you compare even the contenders of the 70's and 80's to the champions of today, I think it's pretty obvious the sport has fallen off quite a bit, which is one of the reasons I'm not all that big into the modern game.

Sigh... I'm years if not decades behind you as far as studying boxing history goes, but I'm slowly coming around to the same conclusion. The depth of truly skilled, let alone "great" fighters in most divisions today pales to the ranks of years past.

I'm not giving up on the future of the sport or anything drastic like that, but I do wish more fans would take the time to watch past greats. If they did, I have a feeling we wouldn't have seen General cluttered with those "Pacquiao greater than Duran???" threads post Cotto. Jesus.

Anarci, you're a cool dude, but save DLH for a top spot on your "favorite fighters" list. I'm a massive RJJ fan, but I'm not going to put him in the top 5 of an all-time middleweight list either, much as I might want to. There are some things fanhood just can't justify. :lol:

[Gesta]

One gets points for character if they do things like:
- Take risks (e.g. fight everyone in and around their weight division and not duck opponents, offer rematches, go out on their shields in an effort to win fights rather than hold on just to survive etc)
- Overcome adversity.
- Bear up well to adversity even if they don't win (and this is shown by the ability to take an ass whipping when it's your way coming, so durability counts here).

Not a bad idea.

[BENNY BLANCO]

This is my list based on resume, dominance, longevity and character. If I did it based on skill it would be somewhat different and would require some more thought, so it's not exactly what you are asking for but it's what I'll put up here nonetheless.

1. Roberto Duran
2. Kid Gavilan
3. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
4. Julio Cesar Chavez
5. Carlos Monzon
6. Vicente Saldivar
7. Eder Jofre
8. Jose Napoles
9. Carlos Ortiz
10. Nicolino Locche
11. Alexis Arguello
12. Miguel Canto
13. Ruben Olivares
14. Ernesto Marcel
15. Salvador Sanchez
16. Wilfredo Gomez
17. Victor Galindez
18. Carlos Zarate
19. Wilfred Benitez
20. Kid Chocolate
21. Antonio Cervantes
22. Esteban DeJesus
23. Felix Trinidad
24. Eusebio Pedroza
25. Panama Al Brown
26. Pascual Perez
27. Ismael Laguna
28. Cocoa Kid

I could keep going there's plenty more: Miguel Lora, Santos Laciar, Hilario Zapata, Baby Arizmendi, Ricardo Lopez, Rodolfo Gonzalez, Pedro Montanez, Jose Medel, Chucho Castillo, Lupe Pintor, Horacio Accavallo, Sugar Ramos, Kid Azteca, Antonio Gomez, Guty Espadas, Rafael Herrera, Fidel Bassa, Betulio Gonzalez, Erik Morales, Marco Antonio Barrera, Juan Manuel Marquez, Gilberto Roman, Raul Macias and I'm sure I've missed out plenty more. How can you justify having De Jesus above Trinidad?

Yes De Jesus took Duran's "0" but besides that what other argument does he have?....Trinidad was simply a superior fighter with a better overall resume. Good list though.

[Sweet Pea]

How can you justify having De Jesus above Trinidad?

Yes De Jesus took Duran's "0" but besides that what other argument does he have?....Trinidad was simply a superior fighter with a better overall resume. Good list though.A better resume, yes. A superior fighter, no.

[sweet_scientist]

I think even in terms of resume, Dejesus is close if we take away the DLH 'win' and factor in that guys like Camacho, Whitaker and Pendleton were past their use-by dates. Tito did have a greater quantity of good wins, but the quality of the guys beaten were not really better imo. He certainly has nothing close to a scalp as good as Duran, other than DLH, who I think he lost to. I'm trying to uncover a report on the DeJesus/Antonio Gomez fight, to see if the decision there was legit (I'll never trust a Venezuelan decision on face value). If I can find some reports suggesting that fight was even-ish or that Dejesus got the better of it, I'd say Esteban's resume would not be inferior to Tito's at all.

But even so, on my criteria, I think the point still stands that it's pretty hard to have DeJesus ahead, since his resume, dominance, longevity, character are really no better than Tito's and since I wasn't taking abillity into account, I'm not really sure what justifies DeJesus being higher....

[anarci]

Sigh... I'm years if not decades behind you as far as studying boxing history goes, but I'm slowly coming around to the same conclusion. The depth of truly skilled, let alone "great" fighters in most divisions today pales to the ranks of years past.

I'm not giving up on the future of the sport or anything drastic like that, but I do wish more fans would take the time to watch past greats. If they did, I have a feeling we wouldn't have seen General cluttered with those "Pacquiao greater than Duran???" threads post Cotto. Jesus.

Anarci, you're a cool dude, but save DLH for a top spot on your "favorite fighters" list. I'm a massive RJJ fan, but I'm not going to put him in the top 5 of an all-time middleweight list either, much as I might want to. There are some things fanhood just can't justify. :lol: Has nothing to do with being a DLH fan and just realizing greatness when i see it. Ive stated too many times here that im very aware of all the old timers comp,and resumes. I am not saving DLH a spot in my favorite list as you say. I have no doubt hed be an elite fighter in any era he would have fought in. For instance im just as big a fan of the fighter in my Avi (Bobby Chacon) but i dont consider him an ATG, more like borderline Great and very good. If i was biased like you guys think I am i would also have Chacon and Danny Lopez on that list however i dont feel they are elite atgs. But they are among my favorites.
As for RJJ i agree that hes not a top 5 middle ATG,but that is cause he didnt stay long enough however in HTH matchup youd be hardpressed to find anyone that would beat him at that weight, and Im not a big RJJ fan although his abilities were Supermanlike at middleweight.


I hope you guys will remeber what im going to say right know 20 years from now.

"PAC,JONES,HOPKINS,DELAHOYA,MAYWEATHER AND MAYBE MOSLEY WILL BE ON MOST TOP 50 ATG LIST ONE DAY" and people will be saying how much better they are than the fighters of 2030 and 2040. Its always been like that even the legends of the 70s and 80s were thought of as inferior to the predecessors.. Duran at lightweight is one of the very few Greats that Old timers accepted as equal to the old time fighters.

[VX.Nefarious]

"PAC,JONES,HOPKINS,DELAHOYA,MAYWEATHER AND MAYBE MOSLEY WILL BE ON MOST TOP 50 ATG LIST ONE DAY" and people will be saying how much better they are than the fighters of 2030 and 2040. Its always been like that even the legends of the 70s and 80s were thought of as inferior to the predecessors.. Duran at lightweight is one of the very few Greats that Old timers accepted as equal to the old time fighters.

very True:good

[Flea Man]

The way Floyds going he won't even be considered a top 75 fighter of all time. Weight jumping and talent aside he has no GREAT wins. Only reason I have him at no 50 is becase of his talent

[red cobra]

I'm still not too sure as to the remaining 14, as the pool of talent in this category was so unbelievably great, but I do know that Carlos Monzon is my pick for NUMERO UNO..on this day being the 15th year since his death.

[bodhi]

I'm still not too sure as to the remaining 14, as the pool of talent in this category was so unbelievably great, but I do know that Carlos Monzon is my pick for NUMERO UNO..on this day being the 15th year since his death.

Over Duran? Number 2 is very possible but one?

[Flea Man]

I'd have Duran above Monzon personally, and not just because of weight jumping.

His lightweight reign is arguably as good, chuck in the win over Leonard and his success as other weights.....he made up for his sometimes inconsistent stages by career resrugances at Middle, good effort against Hagler.......well, those are my reasons without going in depth :good

[Minotauro]

Latino Fighters
1. Roberto Duran
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Juilo Cesar Chavez
4. Alexis Arguello
5. Jose Napoles
6. Eder Jofre
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Ruben Oliveres
9. Salvador Sanchez
10. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
11. Wilfredo Gomez
12. Kid Chocolate
13. Carlos Ortiz
14. Wilfred Benitez
15. Panama Al Brown

Honourable Mention: Ricardo Lopez, Nicolino Loche, Carlos Zarate, Vincinte Saldivar, Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, Antiono Cervantes, Miguel Canto, Tito Trinidad, Esteban De Jesus & Coca Kid

[The Morlocks]

As long as someone has watched the fighters\fights, or done their research if it's an old timer with little to no footage, then anyone should be allowed their opinion.Doesn't mean it will be a worthy opinion, but that's somthing t judge on a person by person basis imo.
Generally yes I talk mainly about the ones I've lived through and more than that, seen live. But what i meant was when some posters put others down for their opinions and acting like THEY ARE THE ONES WITH THE TRUE KNOWlEDGE OF THE SPORT AND THE OTHER GUYS KNOW NOTHING. THAT'S BULLSHIT, Everybodies opinion counts and it just burns my ass when some posters act like their shit don't stink when it comes to boxing knowledge. There is no way at age 20 or so that you have the knowledge to put others down and act like the kingshit of poop island. Or any age really. You may know a lot but are not always right. The great Red Smith said it best when he was talking to another sportswrtiter about a fellow boxing writer that died. The guy said, "Red, there aren't that many of us boxing experts left". To which Red replied,"And there is one less than you think". Red knew there was no true expert who could predict it all and it was all subjective to the person's experiences and what they like.

[anarci]

Generally yes I talk mainly about the ones I've lived through and more than that, seen live. But what i meant was when some posters put others down for their opinions and acting like THEY ARE THE ONES WITH THE TRUE KNOWlEDGE OF THE SPORT AND THE OTHER GUYS KNOW NOTHING. THAT'S BULLSHIT, Everybodies opinion counts and it just burns my ass when some posters act like their shit don't stink when it comes to boxing knowledge. There is no way at age 20 or so that you have the knowledge to put others down and act like the kingshit of poop island. Or any age really. You may know a lot but are not always right. The great Red Smith said it best when he was talking to another sportswrtiter about a fellow boxing writer that died. The guy said, "Red, there aren't that many of us boxing experts left". To which Red replied,"And there is one less than you think". Red knew there was no true expert who could predict it all and it was all subjective to the person's experiences and what they like.:good

[red cobra]

Over Duran? Number 2 is very possible but one?
Yes..I've always rated Monzon over Duran..it's ice over fire, cold control over fiery emotion, etc., I rate Monzon over Duran in a p4p sense, and of course head to head..as Duran as a middleweight would have had the stuffings beat out of him, similarly as what happened to Napoles, though I'm aware of their differences as fighters..it would have been another Monzon victory that his detractors would have been unable to explain because after all, Monzon was so "slow and stiff" and "easy to hit" and all that shit. A cool and detached Wilfred Benitez had all the right stuff to counter the fire of Duran, and a bigger, meaner, colder, and cruel Carlos Monzon would have stopped Duran. Monzon was the best of all the Latin greats, IMO.

[SOMERSETDURAN]

Yes..I've always rated Monzon over Duran..it's ice over fire, cold control over fiery emotion, etc., I rate Monzon over Duran in a p4p sense, and of course head to head..as Duran as a middleweight would have had the stuffings beat out of him, similarly as what happened to Napoles, though I'm aware of their differences as fighters..it would have been another Monzon victory that his detractors would have been unable to explain because after all, Monzon was so "slow and stiff" and "easy to hit" and all that shit. A cool and detached Wilfred Benitez had all the right stuff to counter the fire of Duran, and a bigger, meaner, colder, and cruel Carlos Monzon would have stopped Duran. Monzon was the best of all the Latin greats, IMO.


Duran's LW record equals Monzon's at MW. He also has possibly the single greatest win of all time over SRL. 4 weight champion who fought over 5 decades. Whilst I am a huge admirer of Monzon, he record is not comparable to that of Duran. Duran features in most peoples top 10 P4P ATG list. Monzon is a solid top 25.

[Sweet Pea]

If Cobra thinks Monzon was simply a better fighter, that's his opinion. I personally think Monzon is one of the boxing Gods myself, regardless of whether or not he has the weight jumping credentials of so many others. He was hands down one of the most effective fighters there's ever been.

[Brickhaus]

Cocoa Kid definitely has a better resume than De La Hoya, yes.

C'mon man. You can have that opinion, but saying that definitively is just asinine. You're telling me that a modern era fighter with 50+ losses who went something like 2-10 against future hall of famers (and the ones he beat were pretty marginal ones) and never won a title has a better record than someone who won belts in five weight classes, went 4-6 against guys rated in the top 10 pound for pound and went about 5-5 with likely future hall of famers?

I'm not a boxing historian, so maybe you have a perfectly legitimate argument, but even if you think Cocoa's era was five times better than Hoya's era, Hoya's record on its face looks a lot better than Cocoa's. If you have an opinion, that's fine, but to say his record is "definitely" better is way out there.

I don't think I'm way out here on this one. If Cocoa was 'definitely' better than Hoya, you'd see Cocoa ranked higher than Hoya on most of the ATG type lists, and he's not. Hell, you'd see some kind of movement for Cocoa to join the Hall even, and as far as I've heard, there's never been one.

Edit: Forgot that Holman Williams was elected to the HOF a year or two ago.

[Mantequilla]

One thing to consider when comparing Oscar to guys like Cocoa, is that Oscar was a brilliantly managed media star(earned partly through his maatuer accomplishments and talent to be fair), rarely ever going into big fights without the edge.No fighting tough guys he'd never seen fight on short notice, or having to take fights when not in the best of shape etc..

[Brickhaus]

One thing to consider when comparing Oscar to guys like Cocoa, is that Oscar was a brilliantly managed media star(earned partly through his maatuer accomplishments and talent to be fair), rarely ever going into big fights without the edge.No fighting tough guys he'd never seen fight on short notice, or having to take fights when not in the best of shape etc..

That's absolutely true, but it's also true of journeymen today. Just because Darnell Boone takes 2/3 of his fights on short notice, doesn't get to quit his day job and has to take public transportation to get to his fights, doesn't mean I'll rate him ahead of someone who gets all the star treatment advantages.

[GPater11093]

If Cobra thinks Monzon was simply a better fighter, that's his opinion. I personally think Monzon is one of the boxing Gods myself, regardless of whether or not he has the weight jumping credentials of so many others. He was hands down one of the most effective fighters there's ever been.

Agree completly. I also liked Cobra's Ice beats Fire theory.

[VX.Nefarious]

Generally yes I talk mainly about the ones I've lived through and more than that, seen live. But what i meant was when some posters put others down for their opinions and acting like THEY ARE THE ONES WITH THE TRUE KNOWlEDGE OF THE SPORT AND THE OTHER GUYS KNOW NOTHING. THAT'S BULLSHIT, Everybodies opinion counts and it just burns my ass when some posters act like their shit don't stink when it comes to boxing knowledge. There is no way at age 20 or so that you have the knowledge to put others down and act like the kingshit of poop island. Or any age really. You may know a lot but are not always right. The great Red Smith said it best when he was talking to another sportswrtiter about a fellow boxing writer that died. The guy said, "Red, there aren't that many of us boxing experts left". To which Red replied,"And there is one less than you think". Red knew there was no true expert who could predict it all and it was all subjective to the person's experiences and what they like.


:good this applies to a lot of things