What Could Riddick Bowe Have Accomplished If He Wasn't Lazy?

[CF Gauss]

Riddick Bowe has always been one of the biggest "what-if"s in the history of boxing.


When Bowe became the undisputed champion in 1992, there was a sense that we were witnessing the beginning of the next great champion's reign. He had all the tools. He was a superheavyweight who was mobile and could fight very well inside. He had a nice jab, and, as he showed against Holyfield, the heart and stamina to win an all-out war. We hadn't seen a fighter with Bowe's combination of size and skills before.

Of course, once he became champion, his conditioning problems worsened. He lost the title a year after winning it, and 3 years after that, was washed up and done.


But what if Bowe didn't have problems with his motivation and conditioning? What could he have done?

I think he would have beaten Holyfield decisively in their rematch. Holyfield might have retired after such a loss. I also think Bowe would have beaten the 92-94 version of Lennox Lewis if they eventually met up. I also think he would have beaten a post-prison Mike Tyson. I don't know who would have stopped him. Perhaps Lewis could have beaten him further down the line (after hooking up with Steward).

How long could Bowe have reigned? Would conditioning have dramatically increased his longevity? Or was he the type of fighter who was going to break down relatively early, regardless of conditioning habits? What was his ceiling in terms of all-time greatness?

[TommyV]

There's a reason Bowe binned his belt rather than fight Lewis. He knew Lennox would have the beating of him. He could of perhaps achieved more, but he was still hittable and still had flaws as a fighter.

[crippet]

If he wasnt lazy he would have made even more visits to the fridge.


But really the question is redundant, he was what he was - he may have burnt out before the Holyfield fight if he trained to much - but he was what he was - If all the money grabbing leeches couldnt get him to perform at a top level then it couldnt have happened - May as well ask how he would have done with 3 arms.

[lefthook31]

If he wasnt lazy he would have made even more visits to the fridge.


But really the question is redundant, he was what he was - he may have burnt out before the Holyfield fight if he trained to much - but he was what he was - If all the money grabbing leeches couldnt get him to perform at a top level then it couldnt have happened - May as well ask how he would have done with 3 arms.
Not necessarily true. Bowe is a case of wasted talent not lack of skills, coming into his prime right at the turn of a division where he would have stood out as one of two fighters equipped to challenge Lennox Lewis on a skill level. This could have argueably turned the era into something more spectacular had Bowe maintained himself and Evander and Lennox all been in the mix together by 95-96 which probably would have been the case if he did.
The fighters of the mid 90's that challenged Lennox Lewis were for the most part not really equipped to compete with him, but possibly things could have been different if Bowe had stayed focused through the second Holyfield fight and Lennox Lewis wouldnt have had a little more motivation to get past Mcall.

[mrbassie]

A local-award winning lawn.

[lefthook31]

A local-award winning lawn.
:lol: Maybe that too. Holyfield certainly has one, thats why hes still fighting.

[bodhi]

Bowe had good skills, size and all that but he also had flaws. There haven´t been many fighters around good enough to expose these flaws. But Lennox was one. I would always pick Lewis above Bowe h2h out of two things:
1. he just was the better fighter.
2. They fought in the amateurs. Bowe lost. That may not matter much in the pros but it was clearly visible that this loss stuck in Bowe´s head. Bowe doubted he could beat Lewis. The biggest enemy of a fighter is not his opponent but his own doubts. If you doubt you could beat the man on the opposite of the ring you can go home.

[dublynflya]

If he wasnt lazy he would have made even more visits to the fridge.


But really the question is redundant, he was what he was - he may have burnt out before the Holyfield fight if he trained to much - but he was what he was - If all the money grabbing leeches couldnt get him to perform at a top level then it couldnt have happened - May as well ask how he would have done with 3 arms.

:good

[dublynflya]

A local-award winning lawn.

:lol:

[dublynflya]

Riddick Bowe has always been one of the biggest "what-if"s in the history of boxing.


When Bowe became the undisputed champion in 1992, there was a sense that we were witnessing the beginning of the next great champion's reign. He had all the tools. He was a superheavyweight who was mobile and could fight very well inside. He had a nice jab, and, as he showed against Holyfield, the heart and stamina to win an all-out war. We hadn't seen a fighter with Bowe's combination of size and skills before.

Of course, once he became champion, his conditioning problems worsened. He lost the title a year after winning it, and 3 years after that, was washed up and done.


But what if Bowe didn't have problems with his motivation and conditioning? What could he have done?

I think he would have beaten Holyfield decisively in their rematch. Holyfield might have retired after such a loss. I also think Bowe would have beaten the 92-94 version of Lennox Lewis if they eventually met up. I also think he would have beaten a post-prison Mike Tyson. I don't know who would have stopped him. Perhaps Lewis could have beaten him further down the line (after hooking up with Steward).

How long could Bowe have reigned? Would conditioning have dramatically increased his longevity? Or was he the type of fighter who was going to break down relatively early, regardless of conditioning habits? What was his ceiling in terms of all-time greatness?

Sorry mate, but I disagree with you on a couple of points:

Imo Riddick Bowe is not one of the biggest "What ifs" in boxing. He had every opportunity and decided, by his own actions not to achieve greater status.

Imo I honestly do not believe that he would have beaten Lennox Lewis at the period of time you mentioned. Riddick was the one opponent where the "Best" of Lewis was guaranteed to show up for. As I am sure you are aware, the two men fought in the '88 olympics, with Lennox stopping Riddick in the 2nd. Now I appreciate that the pro game is much different, but it would have still been those two men in the ring. Besides, the fight never came off because as soon as Lewis became Bowe's #1 contender, Riddick "Binned" his hard-earned title!! Now people can argue whatever they like about that abject gesture, but for me, when a guy gives up his world title rather than fight a guy who stopped him a few years ago, he does not fancy the job!!

His (and every other boxers) "Ceiling" in terms of ATG status is what he achieved during his career, nothing more.

I can appreciate the frustration of every Bowe fan. I enjoyed watching him fight and he undoubtedly had the potential to achieve far more, but he didn't.

He had the opportunity to write his own page in boxing history, instead he allowed himself to be reduced to a paragraph.

[Brighton bomber]

Even if Bowe had the dedication to stay in shape his career would have been shorter than most. He was just too hittable even in the first Holyfield fight when he was lighter and more mobile he got hit a hell of a lot. Imagine Tyson landing that many shots on Bowe or Lewis.


He would have probably beaten Holyfield a second time and if his management let him in with Lewis would have probably lost that fight. But his career would have been more memorable than it was and he would have been around long enough to build a better resume.

[JudgeDredd]

He definately would've put together a more significant title reign, & I believe he would've beaten Lewis.

[biglads]

The only thing Bowe beats Lewis in is a footrace to the fridge.

[lefthook31]

Bowe had good skills, size and all that but he also had flaws. .


All fighters have flaws, and Lewis certainly had more of them at the time their fight was proposed. What people conceive as Bowe's biggest flaw which I tend to disagree with, is that he got hit too much, but he wasnt knocked out when he was hit, and Lewis could be knocked out when he was.
Yeah maybe Bowe never faced a puncher like Lewis up until that point, but Lewis never faced a fighter with Bowes skill set either, and Lewis was showing some vulnerabilities in his defense and ability to deal with a big man with a good jab, and I believe Bowe had a real good jab around this time.
Bowe went to war with Holyfield because he could easily beat him that way, and it was proven in three fights that Bowe always got the better of the fighting inside.
Bowe wouldnt have fought Lewis the same way because Lewis would never have engaged him like Holyfield was willing to. The fight would be more calculated on both fighters part, with Bowe probably pushing more from the outside to get close, and thats where the questions about Lewis experience as a pro would have come into play, because as Mercer showed later on, Lewis was still green to a rough inside encounter. It would have also answered questions about Bowe's heavyweight chin, which also seems to be a knock on Bowe?
The olympic fight proved little really. No other fighter has been under more scrutiny because of an olympic match than Riddick Bowe. If you watch the fight it was fairly close and was definitely stopped prematurely. Not only that, Bowe was fighting in his first olympics, and Lewis was fighting in his second olympics, four years later after losing to Tyrell Biggs in the 84 olympics. Did people know that??
Bowe then turned pro under argueably the best trainer in the world, who transformed his style into more of a complete skillset adding a fierce inside game. To not acknowledge this as a big factor after what Lewis went through in the early part of his professional career is nuts. Personally, I dont think Lewis became as well rounded as Bowe was at his best, until 96, a lot of that having to do with his long amatuer career, as well as not upgrading his trainer until 95.
Who knows who would have won had they fought, certainly it would have been a great fight, but to say Lewis automatically beats him because of an olympic fight drives me nuts, and Bowe certainly proved to be the better prepared fighter knocking off the then king of the hill Evander Holyfield who presented more of a diverse challenge than anything Lewis had faced at that point, not to mention Lewis went on to have some struggles against lessor opposition as, and after being champion, before finally hitting his dominant stride.

[bodhi]

All fighters have flaws, and Lewis certainly had more of them at the time their fight was proposed. What people conceive as Bowe's biggest flaw which I tend to disagree with, is that he got hit too much, but he wasnt knocked out when he was hit, and Lewis could be knocked out when he was.
Yeah maybe Bowe never faced a puncher like Lewis up until that point, but Lewis never faced a fighter with Bowes skill set either, and Lewis was showing some vulnerabilities in his defense and ability to deal with a big man with a good jab, and I believe Bowe had a real good jab around this time.
Bowe went to war with Holyfield because he could easily beat him that way, and it was proven in three fights that Bowe always got the better of the fighting inside.
Bowe wouldnt have fought Lewis the same way because Lewis would never have engaged him like Holyfield was willing to. The fight would be more calculated on both fighters part, with Bowe probably pushing more from the outside to get close, and thats where the questions about Lewis experience as a pro would have come into play, because as Mercer showed later on, Lewis was still green to a rough inside encounter. It would have also answered questions about Bowe's heavyweight chin, which also seems to be a knock on Bowe?
The olympic fight proved little really. No other fighter has been under more scrutiny because of an olympic match than Riddick Bowe. If you watch the fight it was fairly close and was definitely stopped prematurely. Not only that, Bowe was fighting in his first olympics, and Lewis was fighting in his second olympics, four years later after losing to Tyrell Biggs in the 84 olympics. Did people know that??
Bowe then turned pro under argueably the best trainer in the world, who transformed his style into more of a complete skillset adding a fierce inside game. To not acknowledge this as a big factor after what Lewis went through in the early part of his professional career is nuts. Personally, I dont think Lewis became as well rounded as Bowe was at his best, until 96, a lot of that having to do with his long amatuer career, as well as not upgrading his trainer until 95.
Who knows who would have won had they fought, certainly it would have been a great fight, but to say Lewis automatically beats him because of an olympic fight drives me nuts, and Bowe certainly proved to be the better prepared fighter knocking off the then king of the hill Evander Holyfield who presented more of a diverse challenge than anything Lewis had faced at that point, not to mention Lewis went on to have some struggles against lessor opposition as, and after being champion, before finally hitting his dominant stride.

I never said that. Read again what I wrote.

I agree with everything you wrote btw.

[lefthook31]

I never said that. Read again what I wrote.

I agree with everything you wrote btw.
I know you didnt, sorry for quoting you on that just that I wanted to point out no fighter was perfect, they all have some sort of deficit. probably shouldnt have quoted your write up. :patsch

[lefthook31]

fixed it!

[bodhi]

I know you didnt, sorry for quoting you on that just that I wanted to point out no fighter was perfect, they all have some sort of deficit. probably shouldnt have quoted your write up. :patsch

No problem :good


Of course all fighters have flaws. That´s why the get beaten. With the excpetion of Marciano, Calzahge and Ottke :lol:

[lefthook31]

No problem :good


Of course all fighters have flaws. That´s why the get beaten. With the excpetion of Marciano, Calzahge and Ottke :lol:
So was Brian Nielson in 49 fights until he ran into that dangerous Dickie Ryan guy. :lol:

[JudgeDredd]

I think Bowe had all the tools, yes he was no defensive wizard but how many fighters are. Maybe he didn't have a granite chin but neither did Lewis. Only thing he lacked was focus.

[Titan1]

Probably a lot more.I personally think he could've beaten Lewis had they fought after he won the belt.But for Bowe, it wasn't meant to be.

[Unforgiven]

I think he actually accomplished quite a lot, even simply if it's the fact and manner in which he won 2/3 fights with Evander Holyfield. If Holyfield's a measuring stick in the 1990s, (which to some extent he is since he fought almost everyone relevant), Bowe obviously pisses all over Tyson (90s version) on that test, and impressed me at least more than Lennox Lewis did.
Outside of Holyfield, Bowe has little else outstansing on his resume, but does have a few decent second-tier wins, but how many heavyweight fighters in history can boast such a trilogy of wars ?

Truth is, Bowe gets roasted for the Lennox Lewis situation but that shouldn't diminish his actual achievements.

I think he might have lasted longer and not have been washed-up by '95 or '96, but I'd still figure he'd have trouble with Holyfield in the rematch had he been in the same shape as in the 1st match.
Give him the win, yes, but he might not have got away unscathed. Holyfield took a lot of punishment in all three fights, but i suspect he took a lot out of Bowe in all three too !
And there's no getting round that.

In a way, Lewis would have been an "easier" fight on Bowe, even if Lewis had "destroyed" him. It would have been quicker or a sudden ending, not the sustained gruelling attrition Holyfield brings to the table.

I rate Bowe pretty high.
Even the Golota fights, where he looked horribly washed-up, he displayed heart and toughness that defies any ordinary explanation.
Bowe was a heck of a fighter.

[lefthook31]

Well thats just it, if he lasted longer at his peak, say to 97, he could have fought both Lewis and Tyson, thus defining probably the best era in heavyweight boxing.

[PhillyPhan69]

This is almost an impossible question to answer, as much of it will be due to how highly you think of him...

Could Tyson have been a top 5 AT HW, yes...but IMHO he does not crack my top 10
Could Tony Ayala Jr. have been great...IMHO no, but many think he would have
Could Bowe have accomplished alot...IMHO YES

I believe he a focused and better manged Bowe had the tools and talent to take Lewis and make himself a force for a longer time frame than he did. If he did he would likely have cracked the top 10 instead of Lewis...

Many others don't believe at his best he could beat Lewis so it's not likely those with that train of though will see him as anything but the 15-20+ that he currently gets ranked in!

For me he had great ability, if that was combined with a better work ethic and better management he has potential to be better!

But at the end of the day that is speculation, the fact is maybe he could have done more...but he didn't!

[PhillyPhan69]

For me the bottom line in how much more he could have accomplished lies in your position on Lennox Lewis!

If you believe Bowe would have beaten Lewis, you likely believe Bowe had top 10 AT potential.

If you believe lewis would have beaten Bowe, he likely acheived all or almost all he could have!

Unless pehaps they csored an exciting trilogy with both guys winning once let the 3rd chip fall wherever, they could possibly have raised and solidified both of their rankings!

[lefthook31]

When Eddie Futch a guy who has worked with all the top fighters said Bowe had the talent to be the greatest heavyweight, I dont take that too lightly.

[Hookie]

everything!

[Unforgiven]

I think Riddick Bowe is arguably worthy of a place among the top 10 heavyweights, or top 12-15 for sure, if we're ranking the fighters who we can see on film.

Some of the usual all-time top 10 ranked heavyweights had resumes that are as (or almost as) thin, and with no one on there who you'd put in the same class as Holyfield.

As much as I love Jack Dempsey, to a large extent he's an example of a fighter built up on many second-raters and has-beens.
Sonny Liston beat a few decent contenders and went 2-2 in title fights, and I dont think Floyd Patterson was any sort of convincing bona fide heavyweight champion, not to mention the quit jobs against Clay/Ali.
And there are others who sneak into the top 10s who I'd have no qualms about putting Bowe in the same breath as, including Tyson, whose greatness I was never sold on.

People can scream all they want "but that guy beat X number of RING rated contenders" and other reasons why some guy was better than Bowe. But that's not much to me. I'll say point blank that Bowe beat several men who were better than Don Cockell and Roland LaStarza. Several. And that's not saying Bowe was greater than Marciano, but it's just an example.

[janitor]

Lets say he could have won the Holyfield rematch.

That means no Mooreer or Foreman or Briggs.

It also means that Holyfields fights with Tyson probably turn int Bowe Tyson (not bad for Bowe if he wins).

A mega fight with Lewis at the right time, could help him regardless of outcome.

[janitor]

People can scream all they want "but that guy beat X number of RING rated contenders" and other reasons why some guy was better than Bowe. But that's not much to me. I'll say point blank that Bowe beat several men who were better than Don Cockell and Roland LaStarza. Several. And that's not saying Bowe was greater than Marciano, but it's just an example.

I would challenge you to name three men that Bowe beat that were better than LaStarza or Cockel.

He is basicaly a man with one great win, as much as Buster Douglas.

[Unforgiven]

I would challenge you to name three men that Bowe beat that were better than LaStarza or Cockel.

Evander Holyfield, Tony Tubbs, Tyrell Biggs.


He is basicaly a man with one great win, as much as Buster Douglas.

You could say TWO great wins.
Anyway, some of the "greats" have a reputation built on no great wins, but multiple good ones.
It's a trade-off.

[lefthook31]

Evander Holyfield, Tony Tubbs, Tyrell Biggs.




You could say TWO great wins.
Anyway, some of the "greats" have a reputation built on no great wins, but multiple good ones.
It's a trade-off.
:good Agreed. Bowe is in no way a Buster Douglas either, Hasim Rahman is.

[janitor]

[quote=Unforgiven;6625514]Evander Holyfield, Tony Tubbs, Tyrell Biggs.


Holyfield obviously.

Tubbs and Briggs do not have a strong case for being better than LaStarza or Cockel at their peaks, never mind when Bowe beat them.

By that logic you could argue that Joe Louis was better than Evander Holyfield.


You could say TWO great wins.
Anyway, some of the "greats" have a reputation built on no great wins, but multiple good ones.
It's a trade-off.


I will take multiple good wins any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[janitor]

:good Agreed. Bowe is in no way a Buster Douglas

You think that, and I think that, but it shows how dangerous it is to build a fighter up based on a single big win, or two over th same oponent.

[lefthook31]

You think that, and I think that, but it shows how dangerous it is to build a fighter up based on a single big win, or two over th same oponent.
Douglas had a clear path of mediocrity leading up to and after his biggest win, Bowe did not.

[Unforgiven]

Holyfield obviously.

Tubbs and Briggs do not have a strong case for being better than LaStarza or Cockel at their peaks, never mind when Bowe beat them.

I disagree. I prefer Biggs and Tubbs over Cockell and LaStarza, and that's when Bowe beat them.



By that logic you could argue that Joe Louis was better than Evander Holyfield.


There's no need to bring Joe Louis into this.



I will take multiple good wins any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Yes, okay, but some of the greats had a very modest number to pass as "multiple".

[Unforgiven]

You think that, and I think that, but it shows how dangerous it is to build a fighter up based on a single big win, or two over th same oponent.


Perhaps, but 2 wins over Holyfield would equal a dozen or more over a Georges Carpentier or a Frank Moran, in my book.

Maybe Bowe should have fought more tomato cans when he has the title. He could have given Chris Eubank a shot at the title, and built himself a long run of defences.
In time, people would have seen such cynical choices of challenger as "multiple decent wins" and he'd be home and dry.

[janitor]

[quote=Unforgiven;6625791]I disagree. I prefer Biggs and Tubbs over Cockell and LaStarza, and that's when Bowe beat them.


Rankings?


There's no need to bring Joe Louis into this.


I am sorry.

That was verry indecent of me.

Yes, okay, but some of the greats had a very modest number to pass as "multiple".

Not if you compare era for era.

[janitor]

[quote=Unforgiven;6625870]Perhaps, but 2 wins over Holyfield would equal a dozen or more over a Georges Carpentier or a Frank Moran, in my book.


Dosn't work like that.

Two wins over Holyfield, are two wins over Holyfield, and the rest of the record still has to stand scrutiny.

Maybe Bowe should have fought more tomato cans when he has the title. He could have given Chris Eubank a shot at the title, and built himself a long run of defences.

No, a few ranked contenders would have narrowed the issue.

In time, people would have seen such cynical choices of challenger as "multiple decent wins" and he'd be home and dry.

No they wouldn't.

People have seen through Dempseys challengers in the light of history.

In Bowe's case there are no challengers to see through.

[Unforgiven]

Rankings?

I'm not interested in where they were ranked by whoever.
Tubbs and Biggs in 1991 both came to fight in last-ditch efforts to revive their careers and were coming off wins and they performed well.
In that form they were better, IN MY OPINION, than Cockell and LaStarza, who they hold several advnatages and assets over.

[Unforgiven]

Dosn't work like that.

Two wins over Holyfield, are two wins over Holyfield, and the rest of the record still has to stand scrutiny.


Well, Bowe has more wins than that.


People have seen through Dempseys challengers in the light of history.

In Bowe's case there are no challengers to see through.


Bowe successfully defended the title twice, against a has-been, and against a journeyman. He obliterated both.

Dempsey won the title from a 37 year-old Jess Willard who was coming out of a three-year retirement. I'm not saying that's on the same level necessarily, but bear in mind that the fight is Dempsey's centrepiece title fight.

[punchy]

Lets say he could have won the Holyfield rematch.

That means no Mooreer or Foreman or Briggs.

It also means that Holyfields fights with Tyson probably turn int Bowe Tyson (not bad for Bowe if he wins).

A mega fight with Lewis at the right time, could help him regardless of outcome.

At the time Holyfield was not regarded as well as he was today, Tyson was in jail and Lewis had destroyed Ruddock, these three men, in most people's minds were superior to Bowe and Holyfield. In retrospect we can see what great fighters they were but at the time it was different I don't believe many people thought he could handle Lewis or Tyson and neither did his management.

[lefthook31]

At the time Holyfield was not regarded as well as he was today, Tyson was in jail and Lewis had destroyed Ruddock, these three men, in most people's minds were superior to Bowe and Holyfield. In retrospect we can see what great fighters they were but at the time it was different I don't believe many people thought he could handle Lewis or Tyson and neither did his management.
Yes Holyfield was. He had destroyed the guy who beat King Kong in Tokyo. Lewis was the one not so regarded. THe world was glued to the Holyfield Douglas fight after what happened in Tokyo. Lewis fight with Ruddock wasnt even in the US and went down on Halloween.

[punchy]

No one rated Holyfield that high, Douglas didn't put up much of a fight, The destruction of Ruddock announced Lewis was here and neither Bowe or Tyson would fight him. Holyfield lost to Moorer after the second Bowe fight. No these guys were not given enough credit.

[Unforgiven]

No one rated Holyfield that high, Douglas didn't put up much of a fight, The destruction of Ruddock announced Lewis was here and neither Bowe or Tyson would fight him. Holyfield lost to Moorer after the second Bowe fight. No these guys were not given enough credit.

Holyfield had his critics at times, but it's not as plain as you describe. I mean, some writers were rating him as the man likely to be Tyson's biggest threat as early as early 1987.
And like all fighters, his "rating" among the pundits ebbed and flowed depending on his performance in his last fight. Same as Lewis, whose high water mark after Ruddock was short-lived.

I have a KO magazine from 1991, polling "experts" on the upcoming Holyfield-Tyson fight (which was cancelled when Tyson got an injury) and Holyfield comes out on top.
Holyfield was actually always highly rated by most.

[Unforgiven]

At the time Holyfield was not regarded as well as he was today, Tyson was in jail and Lewis had destroyed Ruddock, these three men, in most people's minds were superior to Bowe and Holyfield. In retrospect we can see what great fighters they were but at the time it was different I don't believe many people thought he could handle Lewis or Tyson and neither did his management.

No.
Tyson, Holyfield, Ruddock, Lewis and Bowe were all rated highly at the time.

[Stevie G]

Riddick Bowe has always been one of the biggest "what-if"s in the history of boxing.


When Bowe became the undisputed champion in 1992, there was a sense that we were witnessing the beginning of the next great champion's reign. He had all the tools. He was a superheavyweight who was mobile and could fight very well inside. He had a nice jab, and, as he showed against Holyfield, the heart and stamina to win an all-out war. We hadn't seen a fighter with Bowe's combination of size and skills before.

Of course, once he became champion, his conditioning problems worsened. He lost the title a year after winning it, and 3 years after that, was washed up and done.


But what if Bowe didn't have problems with his motivation and conditioning? What could he have done?

I think he would have beaten Holyfield decisively in their rematch. Holyfield might have retired after such a loss. I also think Bowe would have beaten the 92-94 version of Lennox Lewis if they eventually met up. I also think he would have beaten a post-prison Mike Tyson. I don't know who would have stopped him. Perhaps Lewis could have beaten him further down the line (after hooking up with Steward).

How long could Bowe have reigned? Would conditioning have dramatically increased his longevity? Or was he the type of fighter who was going to break down relatively early, regardless of conditioning habits? What was his ceiling in terms of all-time greatness?
He could have been a top 15 heavy on most people's list. Maybe even breaking into the lower reaches of the top 10. Who knows ? Would have gone 3-0 with Holyfield and beaten the comebacking Tyson. I reckon he'd have beaten the 1992-94 Lennox Lewis,but would have lost to the 1995-99 version of Lennox by a nip and tuck decision.

[p.Townend]

If Bowe had been intrested in training a Lewis fight would have been a huge event.I think around the time 92\93 Bowe would have beaten Lewis.Altough Bowe had flaws so did Lennox,look what Mccall did to him.Yes Bowe lost fights but not like that.

[Seamus]

He never had the mental fortitude to defeat Lewis. I am not even sure that he could beat Tommy Morrison.

[frankenfrank]

He never had the mental fortitude to defeat Lewis. I am not even sure that he could beat Tommy Morrison.
he did not need mental fortitude to defeat lennox lewis , just a punch or two , not that i think he would have beaten lewis but he could

[Seamus]

he did not need mental fortitude to defeat lennox lewis , just a punch or two , not that i think he would have beaten lewis but he could

He wasn't that heavy handed. I don't think he beats Ruddock, Tyson, Morrison or Mercer of that era. Vastly, if not phenomenally, over-rated.

Who was the second best fighter he ever beat? A foul-filled fest with Pierre Coetzer? A crack-addled Bert Cooper? A gift to Tony Tubbs?

Please.

[frankenfrank]

He wasn't that heavy handed. I don't think he beats Ruddock, Tyson, Morrison or Mercer of that era. Vastly, if not phenomenally, over-rated.

Who was the second best fighter he ever beat? A foul-filled fest with Pierre Coetzer? A crack-addled Bert Cooper? A gift to Tony Tubbs?

Please.
when i wrote what i wrote i did not think of Bowe's wins , i thought of Lewis' losses.

[Seamus]

when i wrote what i wrote i did not think of Bowe's wins , i thought of Lewis' losses.

Till the very end, Lewis was willing to fight guys with a pulse. Ruddock, Mercer, Morrison, Golota, Briggs, Grant, Akinwade, Bruno, Tucker, Tua, Tyson, Botha, VK... all these guys were better than Bowe's second best victim.

Bowe doesn't make my top-50 heavyweights.

[lefthook31]

He never had the mental fortitude to defeat Lewis. I am not even sure that he could beat Tommy Morrison.
Yeah because Morrison was so mentally tough and skilled, especially in the stamina department. :patsch

[Seamus]

Yeah because Morrison was so mentally tough and skilled, especially in the stamina department. :patsch


Ruddock and Foreman arguably provide a deeper resume that Bowe's.

[tommygun711]

He never had the mental fortitude to defeat Lewis. I am not even sure that he could beat Tommy Morrison.
Morrison has a glass chin.. Riddick bowe would shatter it.

[Seamus]

Morrison has a glass chin.. Riddick bowe would shatter it.

Foreman and Ruddock hit harder. They did not shatter it.

[Unforgiven]

On what grounds can Riddick Bowe's mental fortitude be doubted ?

Anyone who saw his THREE fights with Holyfield and the two with Golota should be in no doubt that the man had incredible courage and mental toughness.

[Unforgiven]

He wasn't that heavy handed. I don't think he beats Ruddock, Tyson, Morrison or Mercer of that era. Vastly, if not phenomenally, over-rated.

Who was the second best fighter he ever beat? A foul-filled fest with Pierre Coetzer? A crack-addled Bert Cooper? A gift to Tony Tubbs?

Please.

:lol:
Tommy Morrison was about on the same level as Herbie Hide.
Ray Mercer lost to a 42 year old Holmes and Jesse Ferguson, and was lucky to get a draw against Marion Wilson.

Please.

[lefthook31]

:lol:
Tommy Morrison was about on the same level as Herbie Hide.
Ray Mercer lost to a 42 year old Holmes and Jesse Ferguson, and was lucky to get a draw against Marion Wilson.

Please.
:deal

[Unforgiven]

I think it people honestly take Bowe's resume, and take away the three Holyfield fights, then list his next best wins/performances, coming up with .......

Tony Tubbs, Herbie Hide, Tyrell Biggs, Pierre Coetzer, Bruce Seldon, Larry Donald, Jorge Luis Gonzalez, Michael Dokes, Bert Cooper etc.

..... then go look at the resumes of men like Dempsey, Liston, even Foreman, and it wont be far down those "ATGs" lists' than you'll start to find names/results on a par.

But of course, Bowe's trilogy with Holyfield should be included and not at all diminished by the fact that those results stand out as far better than the rest of his.

[DamonD]

He could've been an ATG. But he didn't have an ATG mindset.

[FROST]

Riddick Bowe has always been one of the biggest "what-if"s in the history of boxing.


When Bowe became the undisputed champion in 1992, there was a sense that we were witnessing the beginning of the next great champion's reign. He had all the tools. He was a superheavyweight who was mobile and could fight very well inside. He had a nice jab, and, as he showed against Holyfield, the heart and stamina to win an all-out war. We hadn't seen a fighter with Bowe's combination of size and skills before.

Of course, once he became champion, his conditioning problems worsened. He lost the title a year after winning it, and 3 years after that, was washed up and done.


But what if Bowe didn't have problems with his motivation and conditioning? What could he have done?

I think he would have beaten Holyfield decisively in their rematch. Holyfield might have retired after such a loss. I also think Bowe would have beaten the 92-94 version of Lennox Lewis if they eventually met up. I also think he would have beaten a post-prison Mike Tyson. I don't know who would have stopped him. Perhaps Lewis could have beaten him further down the line (after hooking up with Steward).

How long could Bowe have reigned? Would conditioning have dramatically increased his longevity? Or was he the type of fighter who was going to break down relatively early, regardless of conditioning habits? What was his ceiling in terms of all-time greatness?

I do not doubt that Riddick would have done better if he had stayed focused and motivated.

BUT, I still think that his career wouldn't have stretched beyond 1997-98. Because I do not think that Bowe was a very durable guy. Being lazy is one thing, but I do not think Bowe would have been a durable guy even had he stayed focused and in shape.

Bowe was an exceptionnaly skilled big strong man, he had all the tools of a
perfect HW, or so it might seem, but we mustn't forget that the era he fought in was packed with other great HWs. The 90s were a golden era, just like the 70s.

So what if he had won the rematch with Holyfield? It would still have been a war, and it would still have left its marks on Bowe. Then other tough fights would have awaited him, Ray Mercer, Mike Tyson, Michael Moorer, George Foreman, Tommy Morrisson, Shannon Briggs... all potential wars. Not to talk about the clash with Lennox Lewis, which would inevitably have come somewhere down the line.
Now I have enough confidence in Riddick Bowe to say that he would probably have won all these fights, if he stayed focused. But they would all have left their marks on him, and Bowe is no Holyfield who's had one tough fight after another and just kept going. All of these fights would have taken something from Bowe. And at one point Bowe would have become washed up, shot, well conditioned or not, and that's the point where somebody like a Golota or a Botha, or even a Brian Nielsen, would have beaten him.

[lefthook31]

Bowes body was destroyed in the wars with Evander and Golota... he would have become a champion similar to that of Lennox if he'd have had more luck...
Bowe destroyed his body by not staying in shape. Had he kept himself in better condition between fights he might have not had to take so much punishment in those fights.