The rest of the middleweight division...

[CzarKyle]

Honestly. Are there any other fighters worth watching other than Taylor and the current champs? Could anyone shed some light on some middleweight contenders? I took a glance and the rest of the division looks weak.

[DanePugilist]

PAvlik can move up a few and whoop on kesslerYeah, he should do that... I think that Kessler would eagerly accept.

[Fedor Em]

Abraham poses a real threat, but other than that no serious challengers IMO. You have Duddy who is good but I doubt will ever be great. Miranda is moving up to 168 and isn't special. Green could maybe boil down to 160 but his chin wont hold up. I have a feeling Andy Lee might be pretty damn good but he is too green right now. Also Sturm and Karmazin are the only other fighters I would say might give the top 5 some trouble.

[shelterr]

Don't forget Winky...It is POSSIBLE that he could make Pavlik look bad and avoid the big shot for 12 rounds.

[o_money]

I would love to see kelly pavlik Arthur abraham. That would be an amazing fight. because once again you have two guys that are very good technicians but are not hard to find.

AA is the strongest guy in the division and after seeing Taylor nearly floor pavlik in the second i might give the edge to AA. But if it went deep he would gas and take a world class ass beating.

It would be a great fight and someone would get KTFO!

[Dekkers]

A good middleweight prospect is Andy Lee, guy is extremely active as well (6 fights last year, probably 8 by the end of this one), I suspect he'll be the future of middleweight (or supermiddleweight) in 2-3 years... southpaw Gerald Mccllelland in the making.

[Luigi1985]

AA is getting very overrated now, I mean, he just KO´d much smaller guys (beside of the skinny bum Ikeke), Pavlik showed against Miranda and Taylor his power, 2 guys with very good chins. AA´s bad workrate and pace would cost him much against a fighter like Kelly, who throws so many punches per round, IMO he would KO AA in the midrounds...

[Dekkers]

AA is getting very overrated now, I mean, he just KO´d much smaller guys (beside of the skinny bum Ikeke), Pavlik showed against Miranda and Taylor his power, 2 guys with very good chins. AA´s bad workrate and pace would cost him much against a fighter like Kelly, who throws so many punches per round, IMO he would KO AA in the midrounds...
AA isn't great (but he does fight real middleweights, Miranda, Eastman, Ghevor, etc), but Pavlik is extremely overrated at this point as well, analysed thing a bit earlier.

In Pavlik i see a good pressure fighter, but I think he's being overrated on the whole. As a puncher/offensive fighter some flaws exist, are a solid long jab, but it's inconsistent at times and can be countered (occasionally pushed, and his jab often drops straight down to the waist then comes up), so it's good offensively but hardly a perfect jab. Punching form isn't terribly tight at times, often telegraphs power shots, occasionally arm punches, hand speed is decent not great. His defence is obviously leaky due to some of his bad offensive habits combined with slower hands (than say Taylor, who might get away with a few more things due to quicker, hands, legs and reflexes).

On the plus side like I said the jab is good offensively, when he hurts somebody he picks his punches and finishes well, has a good variety of punches, has a good workrate, is a strong puncher when using proper form. Also has a big heart as we saw.

I hope he fights Abraham so I can dish out a few avatars, Abraham I feel has the right qualities to beat Pavlik. He'll get Pavlik to open right up, as Kelly pushes into middle range and wails away on his arms (Kelly likes to push into his opponent and pressure, he won't exploit his size/reach to the maximum against Abraham because of that, not amazing mover anyway... though Abraham is often pretty stationary if someone's comming to him, but it works for him). There's a danger of Arthur being outworked to a decision, but his power combined with solid counterpuncing, toughness and Kellys' bad defensive habits on the attack will get him a stoppage win I feel.

[Luigi1985]

AA isn't great (but he does fight real middleweights, Miranda, Eastman, Ghevor, etc), but Pavlik is extremely overrated at this point as well, analysed thing a bit earlier.


Of course he fought real MW´s, I meant with my comment, that his power is getting overrated. KOing fighters like Gevor, Demers, Parada, etc. isn´t that impressive. With his best opponents so far, he always went the distance (although fighters like S. Taylor, Jantuah, etc. were LMW´s). With Eastman, Miranda, Jantuah, etc. he always went the distance. Of course he has serious one-punch-power, but let´s seeing at first him KOing a quality fighter like Miranda or Taylor before saying he would KO Kelly...

[Dekkers]

Of course he fought real MW´s, I meant with my comment, that his power is getting overrated. KOing fighters like Gevor, Demers, Parada, etc. isn´t that impressive. With his best opponents so far, he always went the distance (although fighters like S. Taylor, Jantuah, etc. were LMW´s). With Eastman, Miranda, Jantuah, etc. he always went the distance. Of course he has serious one-punch-power, but let´s seeing at first him KOing a quality fighter like Miranda or Taylor before saying he would KO Kelly...

Watching the Miranda fight I felt he was well on his way to soundly beating, possibly stopping Miranda before the injury. Even after that he hurt Miranda a few times, it's clear he's a puncher though, it's visible with his good form. Pavlik isn't a difficult defensive target so landing power punches/countering shots shouldn't be extremely difficult for reasons I already mentioned, and i'm very confident of AA's power relative to Taylors'. I haven't seen all those fights but, the S.Taylor fight is a bad example since Taylor ran all night.

[Luigi1985]

Watching the Miranda fight I felt he was well on his way to soundly beating, possibly stopping Miranda before the injury. Even after that he hurt Miranda a few times, it's clear he's a puncher though, it's visible with his good form. Pavlik isn't a difficult defensive target so landing power punches/countering shots shouldn't be extremely difficult for reasons I already mentioned, and i'm very confident of AA's power relative to Taylors'. I haven't seen all those fights but, the S.Taylor fight is a bad example since Taylor ran all night.


Mhmm, AA against Miranda, well it started like always, AA gets later normally worse because of his mediocre/ bad stamina, even a healthy AA wouldn´t have finished Miranda. I mean, when he himself and his managment would be also so sure like his fans, why didn´t they immediately make plans for a rematch? Like I wrote, IMO AA has even p4p one of the best one-punchs-shots, but with his workrate/ pace and his stamina I don´t see many chances against Pavlik. Against Kelly he couldn´t get so many shots like usually, otherwise he would brutally get KO´d...

[Ambition_Def]

Pavlik would beat Abraham and likely by KO.

If Miranda found that jaw with his wild right hand Pavlik would no doubt find it again and again until Abraham had enough.

[Dekkers]

Mhmm, AA against Miranda, well it started like always, AA gets later normally worse because of his mediocre/ bad stamina, even a healthy AA wouldn´t have finished Miranda. I mean, when he himself and his managment would be also so sure like his fans, why didn´t they immediately make plans for a rematch? Like I wrote, IMO AA has even p4p one of the best one-punchs-shots, but with his workrate/ pace and his stamina I don´t see many chances against Pavlik. Against Kelly he couldn´t get so many shots like usually, otherwise he would brutally get KO´d...
Brutally KO'ed seems extraordinarily unlikely (even if he was to have stamina issues late, he protects himself extremely well when he wants to), AA is tough if nothing else, tougher than Pavlik atleast. It's clear you don't like AA though, otherwise why would you make an extremely weak point about an immediate rematch after such a serious injury? Miranda went off and did other things in the meantime, he didn't wait up for AA (which was the right thing to do, even if things didn't go to plan).

A lot of AA opponents have been orthodox boxers with clean upright styles, plenty of foot movement, etc. Pavlik comes forward with pressure, plants his feet a lot, has volume and power but like I already said, his attack makes his defence leaky, and AA counters well, I suspect he'll have more opportunities than usual to find a good counter. Also like I said before it's unlikely Pavliks offence will brutally stop AA, he telegraphs too many punches, and AA will find those a lot easier to catch on his guard, than say for example Taylors' quicker hands and combinations.

[Luigi1985]

Brutally KO'ed seems extraordinarily unlikely, AA is tough if nothing else, tougher than Pavlik atleast. It's clear you don't like AA though, otherwise why would you make an extremely weak point about an immediate rematch after such a serious injury? Miranda went off and did other things in the meantime, he didn't wait up for AA (which was the right thing to do, even if things didn't go to plan).

A lot of AA opponents have been orthodox boxers with clean upright styles, plenty of foot movement, etc. Pavlik comes forward with pressure, plants his feet a lot, has volume and power but like I already said, his attack makes his defence leaky, and AA counters well, I suspect he'll have more opportunities than usual to find a good counter. Also like I said before it's unlikely Pavliks offence will brutally stop AA, he telegraphs too many punches, and AA will find those a lot easier to catch on his guard, than say for example Taylors' quicker hands and combinations.


:think


I don´t understand some of you guys, when I normally criticize someone, doesn´t automatically mean that I don´t like him. It´s the difference, I like him, because he isn´t a fighter who just runs away and gets the decision, he´s a real exciting fighter with one-punch-power, that´s a kind of fighter which´s not so often. I just feel that he´s getting overrated a bit, and that Pavlik would beat him, nothing more, nothing less...

[Dekkers]

:think


I don´t understand some of you guys, when I normally criticize someone, doesn´t automatically mean that I don´t like him. It´s the difference, I like him, because he isn´t a fighter who just runs away and gets the decision, he´s a real exciting fighter with one-punch-power, that´s a kind of fighter which´s not so often. I just feel that he´s getting overrated a bit, and that Pavlik would beat him, nothing more, nothing less...

I'm just getting tired of really shallow responses like 'this guy would get brutally KO'ed' or 'such and such a fighter is euro-trash' when I put a lot of effort into analysing fighters or a fight, it's extremely annoying. Probably projecting that onto you, I apologise :good

[Luigi1985]

I'm just getting tired of really shallow responses like 'this guy would get brutally KO'ed' or 'such and such a fighter is euro-trash' when I put a lot of effort into analysing fighters or a fight, it's extremely annoying. Probably projecting that onto you, I apologise :good


:good

Perhaps I wrote it a bit silly too. I meant, when he fights with a guard like in his last fights than I think he gets brutally KO´d, BECAUSE he has such an iron chin. If he would be shaky, Pavlik KO´s him in the first rounds, but so, he would get a beating, get my point?

[Dekkers]

:good

Perhaps I wrote it a bit silly too. I meant, when he fights with a guard like in his last fights than I think he gets brutally KO´d, BECAUSE he has such an iron chin. If he would be shaky, Pavlik KO´s him in the first rounds, but so, he would get a beating, get my point?
Of course Luigi, my own feelings on the fight are that Pavlik will likely be ahead on the cards (due to workrate) but will eat quite a few hard counters throughout and eventually be stopped in the middle rounds. I don't think Abraham will win a decision, and if he becomes defensive I think he'll be extremely difficult to stop (though much easier to outwork). :good

[Luigi1985]

Of course Luigi, my own feelings on the fight are that Pavlik will likely be ahead on the cards (due to workrate) but will eat quite a few hard counters throughout and eventually be stopped in the middle rounds. I don't think Abraham will win a decision, and if he becomes defensive I think he'll be extremely difficult to stop (though much easier to outwork). :good


Exactly! Don´t worry, I´m not a kind of the posters, who hype someone that much suddenly after a big win or so... :lol:

[Dekkers]

Exactly! Don´t worry, I´m not a kind of the posters, who hype someone that much suddenly after a big win or so... :lol:

Or trash them when they lose, I feel sorry for Taylor, he fought very well (best fight in a long time) but gets no credit at all. My opinion of Taylor went UP after this fight.

[Luigi1985]

Or trash them when they lose, I feel sorry for Taylor, he fought very well (best fight in a long time) but gets no credit at all. My opinion of Taylor went UP after this fight.


I also don´t understand that! I mean, he fought really good, his downfall was that he later in the midrounds wanted to brawl too much, that´s why he lost. But it´s really laughable how some little kiddies here react... :bart

[Dekkers]

I also don´t understand that! I mean, he fought really good, his downfall was that he later in the midrounds wanted to brawl too much, that´s why he lost. But it´s really laughable how some little kiddies here react... :bart
I really thought Taylor would get some respect, a lot of the people picking Pavlik were practically saying he'd dominate and stop Taylor, who'd be too afraid of his pressure to fire back.

It's like the 7th round is the only round that happenned. What about the rest of the fight? Jermaine took some good shots, fought back when attacked and on the ropes, and had a great second round in a very competitive fight. I thought they'd have gained a bit more respect for Taylor when they had their hearts in their mouths in that second round... I know I did.

[Luigi1985]

I really thought Taylor would get some respect, a lot of the people picking Pavlik were practically saying he'd dominate and stop Taylor, who'd be too afraid of his pressure to fire back.

It's like the 7th round is the only round that happenned. What about the rest of the fight? Jermaine took some good shots, fought back when attacked and on the ropes, and had a great second round in a very competitive fight. I thought they'd have gained a bit more respect for Taylor when they had their hearts in their mouths in that second round... I know I did.

They´re stupid, with the verbal attacks ("Taylor´s a bum, he´s a frau, I told ya, etc.") they also make Pavlik´s resume worse, because when Taylor is such a bum, than Kelly beat nobody, I mean, today in general, people really having a problem with staying honest...

[VHB]

Taylor should win the rematch. He can knock out Pavlik if he keeps himself in order and does not go berserk mode.

Pavlik should win that lazy Abraham, who relies on pure power and rugged turtle defense.

Sturm could lose to anyone in top10, but also win anyone. He might be the most exciting fighter considering the potential result. Sounds amusing because his style really isn´t.

Sylvester, Duddy, Gevor etc... are over their heads on world level.

If he can just listen to his corner and fight with an actual game plan, Asikainen will surprise everybody during next year. He knocked out Sylvester once and punished him in the rematch like a ragdoll until came the neck punch and stamina loss. He seems like a different man now and will hopefully rely on his fullest skills and not simply KO power.

[Luigi1985]

Taylor should win the rematch. He can knock out Pavlik if he keeps himself in order and does not go berserk mode.

Pavlik should win that lazy Abraham, who relies on pure power and rugged turtle defense.

Sturm could lose to anyone in top10, but also win anyone. He might be the most exciting fighter considering the potential result. Sounds amusing because his style really isn´t.

Sylvester, Duddy, Gevor etc... are over their heads on world level.

If he can just listen to his corner and fight with an actual game plan, Asikainen will surprise everybody during next year. He knocked out Sylvester once and punished him in the rematch like a ragdoll until came the neck punch and stamina loss. He seems like a different man now and will hopefully rely on his fullest skills and not simply KO power.


It seems to be that you´re from Scandinavia, but a bit more objectivity wouldn´t be bad....

[VHB]

We can always get back on this next autumn. :cool:

[iceman]

I would like to see Pavlik against Abraham.AA has many detractors but i don't know why,he has done little wrong in his boxing career.The win over Miranda was controversial but it just showed us how much heart AA has to continue with a badly broken jaw.I think Pavlik/Abraham would be another slugfest.I don't want to se boring Winky or Hopkins again

[Tom_Tocca]

I would like to see Pavlik against Abraham.AA has many detractors but i don't know why,he has done little wrong in his boxing career.The win over Miranda was controversial but it just showed us how much heart AA has to continue with a badly broken jaw.I think Pavlik/Abraham would be another slugfest.I don't want to se boring Winky or Hopkins again

Pavlik vs. Abraham...

...Hearns (Pavlik) vs. Hagler (Abraham) - all over again (but for a much longer fight)...

This fight would be much better than ´Taylor - Pavlik and this was a damn good middleweight fight already!

[bigeddie27]

there are some up and comers. Tyrone 'two guns' from philly seems like the real deal. And I fully expect gold medalist Andre Ward to take a title and become a champ.

[iceman]

there are some up and comers. Tyrone 'two guns' from philly seems like the real deal. And I fully expect gold medalist Andre Ward to take a title and become a champ.

I think you mean Tyrone 'young gun ' Brunsen - 18 fights with 18 1st round Ko's is very impressive even though he has been fighting stiffs

[Ramshall1]

Looks like the Pav-JT rematch will be above 160. . . Pav would probably stay there (if he wins) and if he could get the Cal-Kessler winner.

[Tom_Tocca]

I want to add Gennady Golovkin - he would definately KO Ward and Duddy on the same night...

[Mrvooh]

Arthur Abraham and felix Sturm are the only other skilled guys, and both of them would lose to Taylor or Pavilik. Roman Karmazin is around also, as well as Javier Castillejo.

The big money is at 168, but Pavilik would be well served to defend the title a few times. A rematch with Taylor would be excellent, as well as a victory against Abraham Well stated :good

[Mrvooh]

Abraham poses a real threat, but other than that no serious challengers IMO. You have Duddy who is good but I doubt will ever be great. Miranda is moving up to 168 and isn't special. Green could maybe boil down to 160 but his chin wont hold up. I have a feeling Andy Lee might be pretty damn good but he is too green right now. Also Sturm and Karmazin are the only other fighters I would say might give the top 5 some trouble. I agree, and with Duddy, he appears to be the modern day Quarry, not just Irish, but he can hit, and take a shot or 2, but his defense is not sound. He can beat alot of guys, I think, but not the top 5 :hi:

[Mrvooh]

A good middleweight prospect is Andy Lee, guy is extremely active as well (6 fights last year, probably 8 by the end of this one), I suspect he'll be the future of middleweight (or supermiddleweight) in 2-3 years... southpaw Gerald Mccllelland in the making. Good pernt, Dr Dekker= I forgot about Lee:good

[Vantage_West]

Honestly. Are there any other fighters worth watching other than Taylor and the current champs? Could anyone shed some light on some middleweight contenders? I took a glance and the rest of the division looks weak.maybe some guys like in the jnr middlewieght could go up in wieght:huh oh wait a sec they did and jermain won against winky,ouma and spinks.

it's a shame becuase jermain is going to go up in wieght (that was a given) and be in with all the supermids which is really really thick with talent since all the belt holders have been given a booster shot in the arm.

[Tom_Tocca]

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I'm waiting for this one...

[iceman]

Good pernt, Dr Dekker= I forgot about Lee:good

Lee is fighting Tuesday night in Chicago.I will see for myself if he is the real deal or not.It might be hard to guage anything from this fight though as his opponent doesn't look too good.

[bigeddie27]

I think you mean Tyrone 'young gun ' Brunsen - 18 fights with 18 1st round Ko's is very impressive even though he has been fighting stiffs

yes that is who i meant. He has got power and philly produces good fighters. they have an excellent boxing program over there. tough.

[Toopretty]

Watching the Miranda fight I felt he was well on his way to soundly beating, possibly stopping Miranda before the injury. Even after that he hurt Miranda a few times, it's clear he's a puncher though, it's visible with his good form. Pavlik isn't a difficult defensive target so landing power punches/countering shots shouldn't be extremely difficult for reasons I already mentioned, and i'm very conf
ident of AA's power relative to Taylors'. I haven't seen all those fights but, the S.Taylor fight is a bad example since Taylor ran all night.


Abraham had Miranda partially hurt twice during that fight. Miranda recovered instantly. There is no god damn incling of anything that showed Abraham was going to stop Miranda at any point. Miranda imposed his power on Abraham and was beating him across the ring. Abraham just balled up into a shell and tried to explode in the last 30 seconds of every round..he was getting jabed to the head and body with no answer or solution from round one. Pavlik would disimate him. JT as well. He is an Overrated burger king clown.

[Vantage_West]

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I'm waiting for this one...:rofl :rofl :rofl amazing


also a middlewieght prospect is

smokin joe greene very powerful very quick and fluid.

[Dekkers]

Abraham had Miranda partially hurt twice during that fight. Miranda recovered instantly. There is no god damn incling of anything that showed Abraham was going to stop Miranda at any point. Miranda imposed his power on Abraham and was beating him across the ring. Abraham just balled up into a shell and tried to explode in the last 30 seconds of every round..he was getting jabed to the head and body with no answer or solution from round one. Pavlik would disimate him. JT as well. He is an Overrated burger king clown.

:lol: I think it's the JT, Hopkins, Wright jerk circle that's starting to look a little overrated.

That said JT has a better shot against AA than Pavlik no doubt after what I saw in that last fight (speed, movement, quick combos, good countering off the ropes, stuff that'll give AA a harder day at the office than anything Pavlik brings to the table). Pavlik is being overrated now (no surprise), he's got some serious flaws, don't think his jab is fantastic either when he throws a jab he drops it down to his waist than picks it up like an amatuer half the time. Atleast Taylor has quicker hands, feet, and reflexes so he can get with that crap more often.

I said I didn't think the world of either fighter before this fight (and I don't think the world of AA, it's just that he's on their level), though JTs' stock went up a bit in my books, since he showed a fair amount of improvement (didn't think he'd be as aggressive, and effectively so).

[bigeddie27]

:lol: I think it's the JT, Hopkins, Wright jerk circle that's starting to look a little overrated.

That said JT has a better shot against AA than Pavlik no doubt after what I saw in that last fight (speed, movement, quick combos, good countering off the ropes, stuff that'll give AA a harder day at the office than anything Pavlik brings to the table). Pavlik is being overrated now (no surprise), he's got some serious flaws, don't think his jab is fantastic either when he throws a jab he drops it down to his waist than picks it up like an amatuer half the time. Atleast Taylor has quicker hands, feet, and reflexes so he can get with that crap more often.

I said I didn't think the world of either fighter before this fight (and I don't think the world of AA, it's just that he's on their level), though JTs' stock went up a bit in my books, since he showed a fair amount of improvement (didn't think he'd be as aggressive, and effectively so).

on top of that, miranda hit abraham with right uppercuts. in fact, i think one of them broke the other part of his jaw (it might have been one straight right that broke his jaw in both places though so i dont know). One of kellys strong punches is a sneaky ass right uppercut. He can land that on abraham and it could end the night for him.

[EpsilonAxis]

Abraham IMO could very well beat Pavlik. That'd be a great shootout. Abraham likely hits just as hard as Taylor, with a much better defense. Winky Wright, with less punches, and more power.

[Dekkers]

on top of that, miranda hit abraham with right uppercuts. in fact, i think one of them broke the other part of his jaw (it might have been one straight right that broke his jaw in both places though so i dont know). One of kellys strong punches is a sneaky ass right uppercut. He can land that on abraham and it could end the night for him.
Let's not forget the fact AAs' jaw was broken changed the dynamic of the whole fight. He fought a completely different, far more defensive fight from that point on. He might have attempted to counter more of those right uppercuts if he was in better health.

As for Pavliks right uppercuts, he threw a few of those right uppercuts from too far out, and telegraphed a few others, what's a great way to counter a big right uppercut? Left hook, and AAs' got a great one.