Is the current Heavyweight Division that bad?

[GPater11093]

Ever since Lennox Lewis left the scene we have been moaning how bad the Heavyweight division has been.

However, there are, arguably, two top 20, at least, Heavyweights fighting in the division. In the Klitschko brothers, however they will not fight each other.

The 90s was a very deep division so it is unfair to compare it to that era and the 70s was another very strong era so discounting them not many eras could boast having 2 top rated Heavyweights boxing at the same time.

Just an alternative viewpoint for you all.

[McGrain]

:twisted:

[PowerPuncher]

Lets look at the era Klitschkos aside. There are a lack of talent in America with less boxing gyms around but there is more talent from around the world. There are some pretty big heavyweights but skills wise they are very basic, but maybe effective. If they'd be effective in other eras is quite questionable. There is also a lack of flair types. There are no spectacular KOs, no flashy skills just basic boxing, not too much aggression, no new big power punchers.

Klitschkos are both top20 HWs though

[stevebhoy87]

The major issue that the heavyweight division has to be its lack of depth, there are just too many poor fighters that have been in the top 10 recently.

When you combine this with the fact the top 2 fighters will not fight one another and your left with a boring division but not one totally devoid of talent as the kiltchko brothers are certainly top level fighters with a possibility that haye may be as well. At least he should add excitment

[Boxed Ears]

Basically, they start this talk in most eras and it's usually just crap. Is it really that bad? I don't think it's the division so much as how the actual fights are playing out. The fights aren't typically that good. But the talent is there.

[Maxmomer]

Yes.

[ChrisPontius]

Basically, they start this talk in most eras and it's usually just crap. Is it really that bad? I don't think it's the division so much as how the actual fights are playing out. The fights aren't typically that good. But the talent is there.

I agree, although it does appear the American heavyweight pool has dried up. Right now, there's only one US contender really: Eddie Chambers. And he's about to get derailed by dumb management in fighting Wlad... then again, when you can get a title shot, you take it. But other than him? Arreola is good, but he's basically Bowe of 94-96: heavy hands and a lot of fighting spirit, but also slow on his feet, weak defensively and out of shape. Although he's young, there is no indication that he's going to be in better shape in the future. The Klitschko beating didn't wake him up, so what will? Thompson is decent, but he's getting old and lacks power/a flashy style. Beyond that, there's Ruiz who just won't leave, but other than him?? Kevin Johnson just proved to be a joke, Austin is no more than a fringe contender even if he was ranked in the past, and that's it. There's some washed up former contenders/champions like Brewster, Toney and Rahman, but they have no future.

It is worrying. It might be because currently, MMA is more popular than boxing in America. The lighter weights seem to be less affected, though.

[curly]

Too many overweight heavies, which you would never see a few decades ago.

[ChrisPontius]

Too many overweight heavies, which you would never see a few decades ago.

Yeah, because Tubbs, Witherspoon, Smith, etc, were never overweight. :huh

[Mendoza]

Ever since Lennox Lewis left the scene we have been moaning how bad the Heavyweight division has been.

However, there are, arguably, two top 20, at least, Heavyweights fighting in the division. In the Klitschko brothers, however they will not fight each other.

The 90s was a very deep division so it is unfair to compare it to that era and the 70s was another very strong era so discounting them not many eras could boast having 2 top rated Heavyweights boxing at the same time.

Just an alternative viewpoint for you all.


The division is average. What we need to see more of are up and coming contenders fight each other in the ring. My theory on why the division isn't doing so well is the Klitschko brothers are literally and figuratively head and shoulders above the field of contenders. The matches are one side.

What we need to see more of are up and coming contenders fight each other in the ring. There are plenty of good matches to be made that would give the fans competitive back and forth type of matches. For example:

Peter vs. Arreola
Solis vs. Boystov
Povetkin vs. Chagaev

[Flea Man]

Eddie Chambers is looking good and coming in at a decent weight now. I'm predicting he will pull off the upset. Just a hunch.

If Solis can get in shape and Haye can beat Vitali you've got three fast, technically competent and in-shape Heavyweights. Fights between those three can revitalise the division.

Too many ifs at the moment though. Either way the Klitschkos are in-shape, effective and formidable. It's up to the opponents to make a fight of it. Chambers and Haye can do that. If in shape Solis has the tools but looks to be taking the Riddivl Bowe route before he has actually done anything.

[McGrain]

Povetkin vs. Chagaev


Agree with this one especially. Why should Povetkin be allowed to average/decent heads and then climb into the ring with the #1 or #2? Sinc when is that a good idea for anyone concerned - it's not. Apart from the money-men, who don't want to "waste" Povetkin on anyone other than the Klitschko's.

But that's bad for up and comng fighters and bad for the brothers.

[Mendoza]

Agree with this one especially. Why should Povetkin be allowed to average/decent heads and then climb into the ring with the #1 or #2? Sinc when is that a good idea for anyone concerned - it's not. Apart from the money-men, who don't want to "waste" Povetkin on anyone other than the Klitschko's.

But that's bad for up and comng fighters and bad for the brothers.

Although he's retired now, I always believed that Ibragimov was a quality heavy. He had the speed of Povetkin, and the power of Chagaev with quick feet.

There are some rookie heavies that have impressed as of late. Pulev in particular is the definition of a very skilled and fast boxer, with good size. He has been matched more aggressively than any other heavy I can recall.

[PowerPuncher]

Agree with this one especially. Why should Povetkin be allowed to average/decent heads and then climb into the ring with the #1 or #2? Sinc when is that a good idea for anyone concerned - it's not. Apart from the money-men, who don't want to "waste" Povetkin on anyone other than the Klitschko's.

But that's bad for up and comng fighters and bad for the brothers.

He already has wins over Chambers, Byrd and Donald, way more than Vitali did to get his shot at Lewis. Povetkin is probably already past prime now, but certainly more left than Chagaev

[McGrain]

He already has wins over Chambers, Byrd and Donald, way more than Vitali did to get his shot at Lewis. Povetkin is probably already past prime now, but certainly more left than Chagaev

No top men.

But I agree with your Vitali shout.

[janitor]

Any era can be prety good if the right matches are made.

I also get the sneaky suspicion that we might just be tuning the corner in terms of the quality of our heavyweight contenders.

I expect 2010 and 2011 to see some intriguing matchups.

[Bummy Davis]

The decent fighters are not active enough, I would like to see Ibragimov, as well as Chagaev. Chambers is the best of the Americans and Thompson is not bad. Thing is there should be some interaction. Curious to see if Haye has the power to stop Ruiz, John is getting up there in age but still pretty durable and it would be a good statement from Haye if he can. There is a new batch that brings excitement, Povetkin ( Teddy's input ?) and Boystov, Pulev,Solis, as well as a few young Americans. There have always been spells of dryness but there is also pockets of prospects. Thing is the Heavyweights have to fight each other. Chambers is up against his hardest foe but his style can also present problems for Vlad and strategy will be an important part of the fight between Vlad and Chambers, this is a fight of interest. The Russians and Ukrainians have been a big factor since the 90's and I think had they had been allowed to turn pro earlier would have been a factor of some sort previous to now. I see many new faces on the rise and there will be 1 dominant Champion again and some super-fights in the future. I have seen gaps of dryness in every era I remember from the 60's the 70's to now. Heavyweight Boxing will be back. It will happen again.
.

[BOGART]

The division isn't too bad if we are talking about talent. There are some good heavyweights out there. I think Wlad and Vitali are top fighters in any era and would wipe the floor with 99% of the pre 60's heavyweights. The next level of heavyweights seem to be solid. Guys like Povetkin, Haye, Chambers, Chagaev, Peter, Arreola would all be top 10-15 contenders in most eras. The talent isn't the problem with todays division its the lack of quality matchmaking. There should be more fights between top fighters instead of one here and one there. If more top 10 guys were facing off then that would make the division more exciting and there would be more interest in those fighters when they did face one of the Klitsckos. The division has talent it just needs to make use of it.

[PetethePrince]

It's bad, but it has been worse.

In fact, not to many years ago it was a lot worse. But now there seems to be some hope and a bit of a resurgence. We have Chambers coming along, and Haye and Adamek to give it some spark. A resurgence of old-school type heavyweights. Perhaps?

[BlueApollo]

I feel like it's very slowly pulling out of it's funk. But the early half of this decade was rough. Name me another era where guys like Calvin Brock and Davarryl Williamson would be thought of as serious contenders.

[patscorpio]

Although he's retired now, I always believed that Ibragimov was a quality heavy. He had the speed of Povetkin, and the power of Chagaev with quick feet.

There are some rookie heavies that have impressed as of late. Pulev in particular is the definition of a very skilled and fast boxer, with good size. He has been matched more aggressively than any other heavy I can recall.
ibragimov however went life and death with ray austin and IMO lost that fight..he was already exposed by the time he faced wlad

[The Mongoose]

Good looking crop of contenders at the moment, next few years should be pretty interesting.


Denis Boystov is fast, sharp, and stong.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Povetkin is a tough workman.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Chambers is a decent cutie with quick hands.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Adamek is looking for a title shot.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Arreola is limited but tough, no match for Vitali or Wlad..but exciting and dangerous. Will probably lose to Adamek in a fun fight.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


And of course, David Haye.....:lol:

[janitor]

If David Haye fought Eddie Chambers it might have many hallmarks of an old school fight.

[TheGreatA]

In the past few years after Lennox retired, yes it has been bad. Do I think the division is improving? Yes. But there's still a lot of room for improvement.

For example I'd like to see contenders fight other contenders. The current practise is to build an undefeated record of little substance and throw the prospect to the wolves (the Klitschko brothers) for big money.

I have no criticism of Povetkin or Chambers, more so of Arreola and Kevin Johnson. Hopefully they won't rush Denis Boytsov who looks to be promising at the moment.

[Seamus]

Any era can be prety good if the right matches are made.

I also get the sneaky suspicion that we might just be tuning the corner in terms of the quality of our heavyweight contenders.

I expect 2010 and 2011 to see some intriguing matchups.

This has been my contention over the last few years rather than the kneejerk Bert "I can't pronounce names that aren't 'merican" Sugar attitude.

First of all, the two best HW's in the world won't fight each other. That's a strike. Secondly, heavyweight matchmaking in general is incredibly tame with a few exceptions (Chambers, Povetkin). No one wants their meal ticket to be devalued by a loss, a single loss. Compare that to years ago when a loss or five was part of the learning curve. I believe the talent is good but we rarely see it on full display.

[ChrisPontius]

No top men.

But I agree with your Vitali shout.

Chambers was a top man when Povetkin beat him, and still is today. One win over a live contender and being undefeated usually is enough to warrant a titleshot - often less than that, even.

[Duodenum]

The morning after Mike Spinks had his first match with Holmes, he was asked about defending his new title against brother Leon. He jovially said that the last time the two of them had a sibling scrap. Leon got the better of it, so it might be time for payback.

During Joe Frazier's comeback bid in 1981, he was training with son Marvis, and got asked during an interview if he was willing to take on his own kid in a sanctioned bout. (This must have been between Marvis stopping Zouski in six and Joe's draw with Cummings.) Laughing, Joe said, "Sure, I'll take him on, but when I say, 'Fall!,' he's got to fall!"

I thought Bruce versus Don Curry would have been a lot of fun, what with the sibling angle and Bruce being a complete psycho.

Just think of some great sibling wars we've missed out on. Duane versus Rodney Bobick, Max versus Buddy Baer, Ray versus Roger Leonard, Muhammad versus Rahman Ali, Wilfred versus Frankie Benitez. Some of these may seem like mismatches, but when siblings are involved, all the stops can get pulled out. (Anybody who's experienced the joys of pounding on a brat brother with gloves before an audience knows what I'm talking about.)

[Jaws]

Basically, they start this talk in most eras and it's usually just crap. Is it really that bad? I don't think it's the division so much as how the actual fights are playing out. The fights aren't typically that good. But the talent is there.


I agree that has been the case in the past.......but I truly believe this era is the outlier in that it won't gain much in the eyes of the rose colored glasses of history.

I see big, slow, OLD, overweight, overly cautious, limited skillset fighters who rely on huge size instead of skill. And did I mention OLD? Remember when a 38 year old Larry Holmes was considered ancient? When have 37-38 year olds dominated the heavyweight division? That tells me that there is no new talent.

[TBooze]

With the odd exception all era's of the Heavyweight division have sucked quality wise, and this era is no different.

The difference is all the way up to Lewis, no matter how good, bad or indifferent the era was, there was always at least one worldwide household name, that people had an opinion on.

The Klitschko's seem like nice people, but they do not seem to do many English interviews, and because of that are written off as boring, uncharismatic robots.

[Stonehands89]

... Some of these may seem like mismatches, but when siblings are involved, all the stops can get pulled out. (Anybody who's experienced the joys of pounding on a brat brother with gloves before an audience knows what I'm talking about.)
Yep, I have a younger brother. I experienced that. But only mom was in the audience, and she fired me up under a hail of left hooks before I was even finished pummeling ...her... precious ...baby.

"MA!! I didn't hear no bell! You're sposta be neutral!"

The woist thing about it is that she's all of 5'2 and used only one hand to reduce me to a cowering lump. She had a cigarette in her other hand --didn't even think enough of my skills to douse it.

[Duodenum]

Yep, I have a younger brother. I experienced that. But only mom was in the audience, and she fired me up under a hail of left hooks before I was even finished pummeling ...her... precious ...baby.

"MA!! I didn't hear no bell! You're sposta be neutral!"

The woist thing about it is that she's all of 5'2 and used only one hand to reduce me to a cowering lump. She had a cigarette in her other hand --didn't even think enough of my skills to douse it.My mother used to smoke. One day, she was sitting at the table with her morning coffee and cigarette, doing her crossward puzzle, and I snuck up from behind to pester her. Without looking, she reached back and stubbed it out -- right between my eyes.

[RockyJim]

You're kidding,......right?

[Stonehands89]

My mother used to smoke. One day, she was sitting at the table with her morning coffee and cigarette, doing her crossward puzzle, and I snuck up from behind to pester her. Without looking, she reached back and stubbed it out -- right between my eyes.
Now I know how to identify you -that circular scar right between your eyes.











....my scars are all emotional.











I'm kidding. I adore my mom.

[Polymath]

And did I mention OLD? Remember when a 38 year old Larry Holmes was considered ancient? When have 37-38 year olds dominated the heavyweight division? That tells me that there is no new talent.

This is a crucial point that signifies really how dismally weak the current division (and other divisions as well) is; 38 year olds are not good at boxing! Of course there are 1 in a million exceptions, but generally a proliferation of 40 yr olds in any physical sport indicates a lack of talent.

[Maxmomer]

If David Haye fought Eddie Chambers it might have many hallmarks of an old school fight.

I honestly think that's the No. 1 fight I'd like to see at HW right now. I like Chambers. Outside of his fight with Povetkin, anyway.

[Bummy Davis]

I feel like it's very slowly pulling out of it's funk. But the early half of this decade was rough. Name me another era where guys like Calvin Brock and Davarryl Williamson would be thought of as serious contenders.

We had Alfredo Evangelisa and Lorenzo Zanon, We also Al"blue " Lewis in the 70's Big Leroy Jones in the 80's and David Bey, the there was Jurgin Blin and Ruddi Lubbers....Seems like Brock and Davarryl may be able to compete with that group and come out on top. I hear what you say but I will be honest every era had there share

[Seamus]

And did I mention OLD? Remember when a 38 year old Larry Holmes was considered ancient? When have 37-38 year olds dominated the heavyweight division? That tells me that there is no new talent.

This is absolutely untrue. Due to sports medicine athletes in all theaters are competing much longer. A 40 year old quarterback almost won MVP of the NFL this year. A 37 year old quarterback just had one of the greatest games in NFL history today. The same goes for track and field, even in the young man's game of the sprints. Hell, a few years back Troy Douglas ran a 10.1 100 meters at 39 years of age. Linford Christie competed to the ripe old age of 40 on an international level.

More specific to boxing, take Vitali Klitschko. 30 years ago were he would have been forced into permanent retirement by back and knee injuries, probably by his 30th birthday. Today, the surgeries for such afflictions allowed him to come back and regain the title.

The longer an athlete, and particularly a boxer, can compete in his sport and hone his craft, the higher level he will attain. Ultimately, his physical decline overtakes his improvement in technique and maturity of skills. However this moment has been significantly delayed by modern sports medicine.

[apollack]

Yes, it really is that bad.

[Sardu]

I think that Denis Boystov kid is going to be something special. He's only 23, is 27-0 with 22 KO's, and he's in tremendous shape although he is of modest size for a modern heavy.

[8count]

well if both Klits fought each other, it would boost the division. but that ain't happenin

[Polymath]

This is absolutely untrue. Due to sports medicine athletes in all theaters are competing much longer.

Care to mention some of these 'sports medicine' developments? It's a myth really, not as bad as the poster who recently said Bowe would beat some old timer 'coz Bowe had all the advantages of 'modern nutrition' :lol:, but similar.

If you look at sports where the best have to compete against the best, all the time, you generally don't get 40 yr olds doing well. Tennis players are well past there best in their early 30's; they can't play one match a year against a hand-selected opponent. If boxing champions had to face the best competition, all the time, it'd be the same. Tennis is a good comparison because, like boxing, it has a unique skillset, but its primarily a physical/reflex sport.

[lefthook31]

This is absolutely untrue. Due to sports medicine athletes in all theaters are competing much longer. A 40 year old quarterback almost won MVP of the NFL this year. A 37 year old quarterback just had one of the greatest games in NFL history today. The same goes for track and field, even in the young man's game of the sprints. Hell, a few years back Troy Douglas ran a 10.1 100 meters at 39 years of age. Linford Christie competed to the ripe old age of 40 on an international level.

More specific to boxing, take Vitali Klitschko. 30 years ago were he would have been forced into permanent retirement by back and knee injuries, probably by his 30th birthday. Today, the surgeries for such afflictions allowed him to come back and regain the title.

The longer an athlete, and particularly a boxer, can compete in his sport and hone his craft, the higher level he will attain. Ultimately, his physical decline overtakes his improvement in technique and maturity of skills. However this moment has been significantly delayed by modern sports medicine.
Boxing is different, you cant compare a quarterback who has people protecting him or younger faster receivers getting open quicker to the reflexes required of one on one combat.
If this is the case, due to sports medicine and nutrition the younger fighters should be that much faster and better as well, and they would be able to take advantage of those older guys if they had the talent. The bottom line is the division is dismal and its purely based on lack of talent and developed skills, mainly for the reason someone mentioned above. No longer are fighters brought along to be tested and experience level ups in boxing, they are just brought along with a nice cushy record and then fed to the champion for a life securing payday in the millions.
When you have the two dominant champions with very blatant flaws in their game such as they do, that should be proof enough how far the level of fighter is beneath them.

[Jaws]

This is absolutely untrue. Due to sports medicine athletes in all theaters are competing much longer. A 40 year old quarterback almost won MVP of the NFL this year. A 37 year old quarterback just had one of the greatest games in NFL history today.

Are you really comparing quarterbacks in the NFL to boxers? They couldn't be more different. Quarterbacks routinely play to that age....especially the good ones. Quarterbacking is mostly decision making, something that experience aids in. It doesn't rely nearly as much on athleticism, stamina, and reflex as boxing does. Furthermore, Favre has the best O-line and the best running back in the league around him. And if Warner is so good, then why is he going to announce his retirement when their playoff run is over?

Anyway, I'm not saying a 38 year old can't be competitive in boxing, I'm saying they shouldn't be the dominating force. There is a distinction there.

[Seamus]

Are you really comparing quarterbacks in the NFL to boxers? They couldn't be more different. Quarterbacks routinely play to that age....especially the good ones. Quarterbacking is mostly decision making, something that experience aids in. It doesn't rely nearly as much on athleticism, stamina, and reflex as boxing does. Furthermore, Favre has the best O-line and the best running back in the league around him. And if Warner is so good, then why is he going to announce his retirement when their playoff run is over?

Anyway, I'm not saying a 38 year old can't be competitive in boxing, I'm saying they shouldn't be dominating force. There is a distinction there.

Who, pray tell, are the other even decent quarterbacks playing 20 years ago who were pushing 40, let alone ones who were playing at Hall of Fame levels? And Warner's performance yesterday was one of the best ever in a play-off game. And if you people think an nfl qb is protected, I suggest you go talk to some 50 year old ex-nfl qb's and give them a hand with their walkers and wheelchairs.

OK, this isn't a football board... However, more protean to boxing, simple things like rotator cuff surgeries, various hand surgeries, knee scopes, ligament repairs have gone from being non-existent or at best cro-magnon in 70's to being outpatient routine now. These procedures prolong a fighter's peak. The most obvious example, again, is Vitaly, who would be long out of the game if it weren't for two knee surgeries and a back surgery.

[Jaws]

Who, pray tell, are the other even decent quarterbacks playing 20 years ago who were pushing 40, let alone ones who were playing at Hall of Fame levels? And Warner's performance yesterday was one of the best ever in a play-off game. And if you people think an nfl qb is protected, I suggest you go talk to some 50 year old ex-nfl qb's and give them a hand with their walkers and wheelchairs.

OK, this isn't a football board... However, more protean to boxing, simple things like rotator cuff surgeries, various hand surgeries, knee scopes, ligament repairs have gone from being non-existent or at best cro-magnon in 70's to being outpatient routine now. These procedures prolong a fighter's peak. The most obvious example, again, is Vitaly, who would be long out of the game if it weren't for two knee surgeries and a back surgery.

Joe Montana, Dan Marino, and John Elway all played impressively to the age of 38 when they retired with playoff appearances, and in Elway's case, a Superbowl win. I could easily find more.

Anyway, you are avoiding my points and making points on assumptions I never said. I never said QB's are "protected", and that has no relevance to the discussion anyway.

Again, older athletes can effectively play the position of an NFL quarterback. It places completely different demands on an individual than sustained one-on-one, hand-to-hand combat.

And medical technology has not changed much from the '90's to the '00's.....and even the '80's. Both eras I consider much better than '00's..

[lefthook31]

Who, pray tell, are the other even decent quarterbacks playing 20 years ago who were pushing 40, let alone ones who were playing at Hall of Fame levels? And Warner's performance yesterday was one of the best ever in a play-off game. And if you people think an nfl qb is protected, I suggest you go talk to some 50 year old ex-nfl qb's and give them a hand with their walkers and wheelchairs.

OK, this isn't a football board... However, more protean to boxing, simple things like rotator cuff surgeries, various hand surgeries, knee scopes, ligament repairs have gone from being non-existent or at best cro-magnon in 70's to being outpatient routine now. These procedures prolong a fighter's peak. The most obvious example, again, is Vitaly, who would be long out of the game if it weren't for two knee surgeries and a back surgery.
While Ill agree that technology in nutrition and health has improved, it still should allow a younger or as closely talented fighter to outshine the older guy. The fact that the fights are so one sided is proof the talent just isnt there.
Take that into consideration and then add to that how and why Vitali broke down in the Lewis fight, and it just makes the era look really bad, meaning Vitali wasnt even good enough to beat a faded Lewis yet he completely dominates all the contenders who always look to be performing poorly.

[The Mongoose]

Vitali is an exceptional 38 year old fighter who's benefited from modern surgery, a four year lay off, and a cautious but effective "hit and don't get hit" approach.

Seamus, you are correct about football players not being more protected. I believe they have the highest rate of head/brain injuries than any other sport...including boxing.

[Jaws]

While Ill agree that technology in nutrition and health has improved, it still should allow a younger or as closely talented fighter to outshine the older guy. The fact that the fights are so one sided is proof the talent just isnt there.
Take that into consideration and then add to that how and why Vitali broke down in the Lewis fight, and it just makes the era look really bad, meaning Vitali wasnt even good enough to beat a faded Lewis yet he completely dominates all the contenders who always look to be performing poorly.

Amen.

[The Mongoose]

So because Vitali got cut up by Lewis any fighter he beats should be automatically written off as trash. Poor Vitali. Got to love this board.

:patsch

Faded or not, Lewis did things in that fight that not many fighters are capable of at their absolute best...the survival tactics, the adjustments, and the "dirty boxing/clinching" against a man of Vitali's size was some great stuff, I don't care how fat he was.

Someone like Kevin Johnson is not a great complete fighter by any means but the complete dismissal of his obvious defensive talents by numerous posters around these parts suggests either a bias or simply no eye for boxing ability.

[Jaws]

So because Vitali got cut up by Lewis any fighter he beats should be automatically written off as trash. Poor Vitali. Got to love this board.

Why do people jump to conclusions/assumptions?

Got to love this board.

:patsch

Nobody said he is "trash". He's clearly a very good fighter. But the scenario lefthook describes does show a decrease in talent level.

[Seamus]

Joe Montana, Dan Marino, and John Elway all played impressively to the age of 38 when they retired with playoff appearances, and in Elway's case, a Superbowl win. I could easily find more.

Anyway, you are avoiding my points and making points on assumptions I never said. I never said QB's are "protected", and that has no relevance to the discussion anyway.

Again, older athletes can effectively play the position of an NFL quarterback. It places completely different demands on an individual than sustained one-on-one, hand-to-hand combat.

And medical technology has not changed much from the '90's to the '00's.....and even the '80's. Both eras I consider much better than '00's..

I'm talking in comparison to the early 80's and before. Not 1998. Sorry, I should have better clarified that.

And sure, NFL QB is different. Nothing is exactly the same as boxing, except boxing. But the same trend is very apparent in the explosive events in track and field over the last 20-30 years. Jonathan Edwards, gray-haired triple jumper, who set the World Record and was still an international force when he retired in his mid-30's. Stefan Holm, high jumper, highly competitive into his 30's, equaled his best of 2.37 at age 33 or 34. Mike Powell, world record holder in the long jump, comes out of retirement at 38 and goes over 27 feet. These performances would have been unthought of 30 years ago. And these events only represent explosive, very little accumulated technique like boxing.

[The Mongoose]

Why do people jump to conclusions/assumptions?

Got to love this board.

:patsch

Nobody said he is "trash". He's clearly a very good fighter. But the scenario lefthook describes does show a decrease in talent level.


Think we’ve got crossed up. I know nobody was calling Vitali trash but there seemed to be a strong implication that his recent opposition is being unfairly written off as such by questionable analysis. Really, someone reaching that conclusion is fine by me as I think Samuel Peter was little more than a sturdy plodding punching bag but this is based off his lackluster performance rather than the fact he was dominated by the guy that once up a time was cut up by a “faded” Lewis. Sorry but I think attaching a degrading stigma like that to not only Vitali but to his opponents is really shallow and lowbrow. Not to mention its just not how boxing works. Lefthook is a good poster but I must strongly oppose his reasoning on this one.

[mcvey]

Ever since Lennox Lewis left the scene we have been moaning how bad the Heavyweight division has been.

However, there are, arguably, two top 20, at least, Heavyweights fighting in the division. In the Klitschko brothers, however they will not fight each other.

The 90s was a very deep division so it is unfair to compare it to that era and the 70s was another very strong era so discounting them not many eras could boast having 2 top rated Heavyweights boxing at the same time.

Just an alternative viewpoint for you all.


I think the division is piss poor, two standouts, who won't fight each other, and an exciting but unproven ex cruiser,
confirms this imo.
When was a last time you were thrilled by a Heavyweight title fight?

[lefthook31]

At Mongoose,
Its a simple explanation of how I came to that conclusion without going into a massive explanation. I was going to say I dont mean to use one fight as a baromoter to judge a champions era, but there is plenty more to it, if you look further into his opponents and their ability and accomplishments.
I respect Vitali and I think he is a good fighter, but his level of opposition is what's making him look so dominant.
Just using Kevin Johnson as an example, having defensive skills is meaningless, when you have zero offense. Do you really believe Johnson was prepared to fight for the title based off of that performance and who he had faced prior?
You have to look at a fighters resume and say to yourself what fighters stick out as having real pedigree in the division? Who has he beaten thats actually accomplished something in the sport or been brought along and tested properly to be a worthy challenger?
Having an undefeated record these days is meaningless. You look at Johnson's record, and the name that sticks out at you is a shot Bruce Seldon. The rest is nothing, so are we applauding Johnson for making it 12 rounds because of his defensive skills? Was that being defensive while trying to win or being defensive to survive and say I went 12 with the champ?
It is my opinion Vitali is a good fighter not a great one, I see flaws in his game and several flaws in most of his opponents, and realistically I think he fits nicely into the mix of the title challengers in the mid 90's, but would always be a step below Lewis, especially the one of the late 90's.

Im not too high on Lewis' opposition through the second half of the 90's, but when you compare it to Vitali's, its still a step up, in fact many of Vitali's wins would be categorized against the second tier contenders of the mid to late 90's. Herbie Hide, Obed Sullivan, Larry Donald, Vaughn Bean, Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson, those level guys are the guys that couldnt make it past the Tua, Rahman, Golota, Grant level guys that fought Lewis and for the most part failed miserably.

[mcvey]

So because Vitali got cut up by Lewis any fighter he beats should be automatically written off as trash. Poor Vitali. Got to love this board.

:patsch

Faded or not, Lewis did things in that fight that not many fighters are capable of at their absolute best...the survival tactics, the adjustments, and the "dirty boxing/clinching" against a man of Vitali's size was some great stuff, I don't care how fat he was.

Someone like Kevin Johnson is not a great complete fighter by any means but the complete dismissal of his obvious defensive talents by numerous posters around these parts suggests either a bias or simply no eye for boxing ability.

I allways thought that a man being given a chance to fight for what used to be regarded as "The Richest Prize In Sports", should at least try and win it.
Did you see ONE round in the Johnson Klitschko fight that convinced you that Johnson was there to do more than actually just survive?
I would have held up his purse.
Johnson is "not a complete fighter" ? Based on the evidence of that bout,[I wont call it a fight],he is not a fighter at all.

[GPater11093]

Yep, I have a younger brother. I experienced that. But only mom was in the audience, and she fired me up under a hail of left hooks before I was even finished pummeling ...her... precious ...baby.

"MA!! I didn't hear no bell! You're sposta be neutral!"

The woist thing about it is that she's all of 5'2 and used only one hand to reduce me to a cowering lump. She had a cigarette in her other hand --didn't even think enough of my skills to douse it.

I got my wee brother who boxes aswell as me. Much more naturally talented than me but not as good technically. He has a very unorthodox style with fast hands and a big punch for the size of him (im a good 2 stone heavier)

Well anyway our sparring matches get pretty heated, he gets mad when I check his moves and be generally to clever. He hates it low blowing and butting. I can keep my cool but hes another matter.

That's just a spar a fight between us would be too much...

Although we only really spar we never fight at home but he once threw a knife at me that lodged in the wall above my head, and I once stabbed him with a knife when he charged me and I had a wee knife in my hand.

[Mendoza]

I'm talking in comparison to the early 80's and before. Not 1998. Sorry, I should have better clarified that.

And sure, NFL QB is different. Nothing is exactly the same as boxing, except boxing. But the same trend is very apparent in the explosive events in track and field over the last 20-30 years. Jonathan Edwards, gray-haired triple jumper, who set the World Record and was still an international force when he retired in his mid-30's. Stefan Holm, high jumper, highly competitive into his 30's, equaled his best of 2.37 at age 33 or 34. Mike Powell, world record holder in the long jump, comes out of retirement at 38 and goes over 27 feet. These performances would have been unthought of 30 years ago. And these events only represent explosive, very little accumulated technique like boxing.

Some fighters are great older fighters. Vitali is one of them. While modern medicine has no doubt extended the careers of athletes today, the man still has to be willing and in year round shape in his mid to late 30's. to stay on top...otherwise muscle reflex memory will die. As one ages, it becomes harder and harder to stay in world class shape.

[PetethePrince]

Who, pray tell, are the other even decent quarterbacks playing 20 years ago who were pushing 40, let alone ones who were playing at Hall of Fame levels? And Warner's performance yesterday was one of the best ever in a play-off game. And if you people think an nfl qb is protected, I suggest you go talk to some 50 year old ex-nfl qb's and give them a hand with their walkers and wheelchairs.

Big mistep Seamus. The NFL has changed. I bet if you talked to those 50+ year old ex NFL Qb's they will talk about how "soft" the QB's are these days and how protected they are. If you breathe on them wrong you'll get a penalty. Times are much much more different. The QB position, and NFL players health in general is more of a concern (Concussion issue story this year).

[The Mongoose]

At Mongoose,
Its a simple explanation of how I came to that conclusion without going into a massive explanation. I was going to say I dont mean to use one fight as a baromoter to judge a champions era, but there is plenty more to it, if you look further into his opponents and their ability and accomplishments.
I respect Vitali and I think he is a good fighter, but his level of opposition is what's making him look so dominant.

Im not too high on Lewis' opposition through the second half of the 90's, but when you compare it to Vitali's, its still a step up, in fact many of Vitali's wins would be categorized against the second tier contenders of the mid to late 90's. Herbie Hide, Obed Sullivan, Larry Donald, Vaughn Bean, Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson, those level guys are the guys that couldnt make it past the Tua, Rahman, Golota, Grant level guys that fought Lewis and for the most part failed miserably.


Now I can agree with this. I know we see eye to eye on Lewis anyway and I've always maintained Vitali's resume is just solid.

However, I think Vitali's dominance can also be credited to his remarkable consistency. 90s Champions like Moorer, Bowe, and Holyfield were often guilty of fighting down to the level of their fringe contenders, Vitali does not. It goes both ways.

Kevin Johnson was not a contender, he's a prospect with a difficult style whom Haye "ducked" to fight Barrett, and Vitali used to stay busy. I'll go into that in another post.

[The Mongoose]

I allways thought that a man being given a chance to fight for what used to be regarded as "The Richest Prize In Sports", should at least try and win it.
Did you see ONE round in the Johnson Klitschko fight that convinced you that Johnson was there to do more than actually just survive?
I would have held up his purse.
Johnson is "not a complete fighter" ? Based on the evidence of that bout,[I wont call it a fight],he is not a fighter at all.


Johnson is an incredibly limited offensive fighter and this was well known going into the fight. He has a good jab, a double jab, a jab to the body...you get the point. He had a little success early but Vitali adjusted and took it out of the equation. If Johnson can't jab, he doesn't have an offense. I would say he came to win the fight but after several rounds of discouragement, gave up and concentrated on surviving. I don't think he should be applauded for such an effort, but the defensive talent was there, and Vitali should be credited for doing what he could against a frustrating opponent. He showed some limitations as an aggressor but more creativity than we would expect...he went to the body more frequently than usual and pulled off some intresting feints and angles.

[Seamus]

Big mistep Seamus. The NFL has changed. I bet if you talked to those 50+ year old ex NFL Qb's they will talk about how "soft" the QB's are these days and how protected they are. If you breathe on them wrong you'll get a penalty. Times are much much more different. The QB position, and NFL players health in general is more of a concern (Concussion issue story this year).

The "concern" is just a show of tears to appease the NFL Veteran's Committee and the fickle interest of Congress. Nothing really has changed. Despite the "Tom Brady Rules", Brady still ended the season with 3 or 4 broken ribs, a broken finger and an ankle that may never heal right. He was flat out hobbling. I don't think Pat White felt too protected when he was carted, immobilized off the field. Brad Gradkowski didn't feel too protected when he blew out BOTH knees. Brett Favre has had a great season- thank god for the 3000 mg of ibuprofen he ingests daily (that won't come back and bite him in the ass)... And the whole concussion situation will not come to the fore for a few years. Hell, I watched Aaron Rodgers take two vicious helmet to helmet shots last Sunday...

end of football discussion for me. i don't want to bore the euro's...

[lefthook31]

The "concern" is just a show of tears to appease the NFL Veteran's Committee and the fickle interest of Congress. Nothing really has changed. Despite the "Tom Brady Rules", Brady still ended the season with 3 or 4 broken ribs, a broken finger and an ankle that may never heal right. He was flat out hobbling. I don't think Pat White felt too protected when he was carted, immobilized off the field. Brad Gradkowski didn't feel too protected when he blew out BOTH knees. Brett Favre has had a great season- thank god for the 3000 mg of ibuprofen he ingests daily (that won't come back and bite him in the ass)... And the whole concussion situation will not come to the fore for a few years. Hell, I watched Aaron Rodgers take two vicious helmet to helmet shots last Sunday...

end of football discussion for me. i don't want to bore the euro's...
I just dont like the football comparison when you have a wall of humans around you. Theres just far more reaction time involved. One could say the guys doing the hitting are bigger and faster thats why the injuries are still there. They almost want the QB completely untouched these days because a 320 pound speedster tackling or just knocking a QB down is going to do physical damage to a guy thats 100 pounds lighter almost everytime.

[Seamus]

I just dont like the football comparison when you have a wall of humans around you. Theres just far more reaction time involved. One could say the guys doing the hitting are bigger and faster thats why the injuries are still there. They almost want the QB completely untouched these days because a 320 pound speedster tackling or just knocking a QB down is going to do physical damage to a guy thats 100 pounds lighter almost everytime.

OK, one more visit to football.

That wall of humans is trying to protect another, faster wall of humans that most often outnumber them, coming at the qb who is focussed downfield and often gets blindsided. I guarantee you the concussive forces of a 250 pound linebacker that runs a 4.5 forty yard dash coming unabated from the left side while the quarterback is looking right, that force, delivered helmet to helmet is much greater than any right cross Shavers ever threw.

The powers that be want the quarterback protected because there are so few athletes in the this country capable of playing the position effectively... i.e. the talent pool is very shallow despite being the most recruited sport in a country of 300 million. However, all these efforts really have come to nothing. Each season is still a bloodbath, even for the qb position.

[lefthook31]

OK, one more visit to football.

That wall of humans is trying to protect another, faster wall of humans that most often outnumber them, coming at the qb who is focussed downfield and often gets blindsided. I guarantee you the concussive forces of a 250 pound linebacker that runs a 4.5 forty yard dash coming unabated from the left side while the quarterback is looking right, that force, delivered helmet to helmet is much greater than any right cross Shavers ever threw.

The powers that be want the quarterback protected because there are so few athletes in the this country capable of playing the position effectively... i.e. the talent pool is very shallow despite being the most recruited sport in a country of 300 million. However, all these efforts really have come to nothing. Each season is still a bloodbath, even for the qb position.
A 20 year old quarterback can just as easily be blindsided as a 40 year old, because he doesnt see whats coming.
Theres just is no comparison to getting punched in the face over 12 rounds at close distance to football.

[nahkis]

It's better than it has been for a while, thanks to Adamek, Haye, Solis, Boytsov, Povetkin, all entertaining and good fighters with potential . After Haye murders Ruiz and Vitali does the same to Valuev, they should be out of the title picture for at least a while. This would lead to the Klitschkos and Haye to have nothing in the table expect interesting fights with the guys mentioned above or hopefully a Haye-Klitscko fight.

[Seamus]

A 20 year old quarterback can just as easily be blindsided as a 40 year old, because he doesnt see whats coming.
Theres just is no comparison to getting punched in the face over 12 rounds at close distance to football.

This statement has no relevance to what we were discussing.

One more time..

My point was in response to the contention that because HW champs and contenders are older now than in the past, they must be worse. My response regarded the role of improved medical procedures lengthening the career of athletes in the 90's and 00's. I illustrated said point with specific examples of explosive track and field athletes and American football players, to wit...

The position of qb in american football is the most vulnerable position on the field. Over the course of a long career, the beating the body takes in immense, both to the skeletal system and nervous system. The debilitation factor is roughly the same. I heard two doctors in front of the US Congress say as much, comparing the post-career life of a football player to that of a boxer.

Now protean to the discussion of this thread, the reason QB's are lasting longer today and performing better well into their 30's or even 40's is that they can be medically repaired. Favre would be retired if not for hand and elbow surgeries. FACT. Vitali Klitschko would be retired if not for back and knees surgeries. FACT. 30 years ago, they both would running car dealerships or doing endorsements on late night TV, not performing at a championship level.

That is point I am making.

[lefthook31]

You dont think a running back takes a worse beating than a QB? :yep

Going back to the fight discussion, it still doesnt slow down the deterioation of a fighters reflexes. A fighter with somewhat close skills thats younger should still be able to expose age.
I dont think fighters retired in the past because they were physically unable to fight or they couldnt bounce back from injuries, but more often the case because their reflexes slowed to the extent that they could no longer react to a younger skilled opponent.

The new generation of fighters is so bad they cant take any advantage of it. Personally I dont watch Vitali fights and say wow, what a show of ability and greatness, especially after watching boxing for 30 years. I watch and think to myself how horrible the opposition is performing because Vitali isnt doing a lot of anything special because hes not being forced to.

It started off with Foreman, Holmes and Tyson cherry picking certain fighters in the 90's that they knew couldnt expose their age or deterioration, and now its just a whole division of fighters with a lot of the same type of shortcomings.
Just my opinion though.

[Vysotsky]

He already has wins over Chambers, Byrd and Donald, way more than Vitali did to get his shot at Lewis. Povetkin is probably already past prime now, but certainly more left than Chagaev

What? he's not even 30 and he hasn't had that much wear and tear in his pro career.

Although he's retired now, I always believed that Ibragimov was a quality heavy. He had the speed of Povetkin, and the power of Chagaev with quick feet.

There are some rookie heavies that have impressed as of late. Pulev in particular is the definition of a very skilled and fast boxer, with good size. He has been matched more aggressively than any other heavy I can recall.

Agreed on Ibragimov and Pulev


I think that Denis Boystov kid is going to be something special. He's only 23, is 27-0 with 22 KO's, and he's in tremendous shape although he is of modest size for a modern heavy.

Ibragimov
Chagaev
Boytsov
Povetkin
Tua
Haye
Chambers
Solis
Adamek
Peter
Maskaev
Johnson
Rahman

All 6'3 or under and unless they're obese like Solis are in the 220 - 230 range. Most of the guys today aren't all that huge

Klitschko's are the only real good big guys

Ustinov
Valuev
Austin
Thompson
Dimitrenko
Meehan

all the 6'6 - 6'8 guys are limited and can be beaten by smaller guys. Aside from Klitschko's & Lewis, giants who are coordinated and skilled are a rare thing. I can't ever see it being "the norm"