Wepner-Ali knockdown [Archive] - East Side Boxing Forum

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fg2227

10-01-2007, 03:53 PM

I've noticed that some people feel that this was a legit knockdown, come on guys he clearly stood on his foot.

Luigi1985

10-01-2007, 03:55 PM

It wasn´t IMO a KD.

My dinner with Conteh

10-01-2007, 04:00 PM

No knockdown. Some people just want to believe it was legit.

Luigi1985

10-01-2007, 04:02 PM

I think everyone who saw that fight agrees, that Wepner stood on Ali´s foot, that´s why Ali was KD...

fg2227

10-01-2007, 04:02 PM

Does anyone feel it was a legit knockdown, Please state your case.

TBooze

10-01-2007, 04:55 PM

Does anyone feel it was a legit knockdown, Please state your case.

The referee counted, it was a legitmate knockdown, look at the record books;)

My dinner with Conteh

10-01-2007, 04:58 PM

The referee counted, it was a legitmate knockdown, look at the record books;)

When I saw your name i thought "Surely he won't"...but you did. :-(

TBooze

10-01-2007, 05:00 PM

When I saw your name i thought "Surely he won't"...but you did. :-(

Did not want to let you down;)

My dinner with Conteh

10-01-2007, 05:07 PM

Ha ha fair enough. :D

apollack

10-02-2007, 01:30 AM

Just cause the referee officially calls it a KD doesn't mean in reality that it was. We all know it wasn't.

mr. magoo

10-02-2007, 01:33 AM

Just cause the referee officially calls it a KD doesn't mean in reality that it was. We all know it wasn't.

Agreed,

The referee of Larry Holmes vs Beanfart ruled a knockdown after Holmes stumbled back just a tad. In my opinion, Ali did not suffer a true knockdown against Chuck Wepner.

The Kurgan

10-02-2007, 09:08 AM

It was a real knockdown, proving that Ali's chin is overrated.

JohnThomas1

10-02-2007, 10:38 AM

It was a real knockdown, proving that Ali's chin is overrated.

Oh the irony

:good

ChrisPontius

10-02-2007, 11:28 AM

It was a real knockdown, proving that Ali's chin is overrated.

True - Wepner punched his ribcage so hard that it quaked all the way through to his SHAKY chin - which was AGAIN proved to be GRADE A CHINA :nod

Bummy Davis

10-02-2007, 11:56 AM

Wepner could not crack an egg and Ali had a good chin,Ali had to be a shot fighter because Wepner was never more than club fighter than was tough but bleed and had zero power

TBooze

10-02-2007, 02:17 PM

Just cause the referee officially calls it a KD doesn't mean in reality that it was. We all know it wasn't.

But the knockdown is a statisical fact of the fight, thus it is legitmate...

We may all know the circumstances of the knockdown, but in future that may change, as less boxing people become intrested in Ali, and research his career properly.

Mega Lamps

10-02-2007, 02:18 PM

I'll have to watch it again to be sure but it very well could have been legit. Ali wasn't balanced right when hit and was not expecting Wepner to hit him like that. Ali did not complain when it was ruled a knockdown either.
Doesn't mean Ali was hurt but was caught unexpectedly

Mendoza

10-02-2007, 02:25 PM

Why do we keep discussing this? Who cares? Whether it was legit or not doesn't change anything. Wepner was a fucking bum either way. No skills at all. It was one of the worst fights I've ever had the displeasure of watching.

Here’s my take. Wepner did land a hard punch to Ali's arm pit / chest region. Ali went down. Ali got up bracing himself on the ropes and looked a bit shaken up.

However, a photo shows Wepner did step on Ali's foot, and therein lays the debate. Did Wepner step on Ali's foot before or after the punch? The film does not show.

The referee felt it was a knock down. I think it was, though it was not a clean knockdown. The significance of this fight is lost in modern times. Wepner did not deserve a title shot, but he did inspire a young actor named Sylvester Stallone. Wepner's gameness inspired Stallone to write, and star in the movie Rocky.

mcvey

10-02-2007, 09:16 PM

Here’s my take. Wepner did land a hard punch to Ali's arm pit / chest region. Ali went down. Ali got up bracing himself on the ropes and looked a bit shaken up.

However, a photo shows Wepner did step on Ali's foot, and therein lays the debate. Did Wepner step on Ali's foot before or after the punch? The film does not show.

The referee felt it was a knock down. I think it was, though it was not a clean knockdown. The significance of this fight is lost in modern times. Wepner did not deserve a title shot, but he did inspire a young actor named Sylvester Stallone. Wepner's gameness inspired Stallone to write, and star in the movie Rocky.
Wepner as you say had no skills ,but I hate to hear people call him a F*****G Bum,Chuck Wepner was a brave man whatever his skills or lack of them,he took a beating from Ali and Liston and many othe r top notchers ,he never looked to quit and many times had his face opened up like a tin of peas,Id like to see you in there with Liston and Foreman ,Mr Spencer,the ring can be a lonely place ,its a long time since I was in one but I remember that,I think you would do well to think about that before calling a brave man a BUm

Mendoza

10-02-2007, 09:33 PM

Mendoza says:

Here’s my take. Wepner did land a hard punch to Ali's arm pit / chest region. Ali went down. Ali got up bracing himself on the ropes and looked a bit shaken up.

However, a photo shows Wepner did step on Ali's foot, and therein lays the debate. Did Wepner step on Ali's foot before or after the punch? The film does not show.

The referee felt it was a knock down. I think it was, though it was not a clean knockdown. The significance of this fight is lost in modern times. Wepner did not deserve a title shot, but he did inspire a young actor named Sylvester Stallone. Wepner's gameness inspired Stallone to write, and star in the movie Rocky.

Wepner as you say had no skills ,but I hate to hear people call him a F*****G Bum,Chuck Wepner was a brave man whatever his skills or lack of them,he took a beating from Ali and Liston and many othe r top notchers ,he never looked to quit and many times had his face opened up like a tin of peas,Id like to see you in there with Liston and Foreman ,Mr Spencer,the ring can be a lonely place ,its a long time since I was in one but I remember that,I think you would do well to think about that before calling a brave man a BUm

Hey McVey, please show me where I called Wepner a bum? If anything I praised his gameness vs Ali.

Street Lethal

10-02-2007, 11:18 PM

It was no knockdown. Ali haters push the line that it was. The motive is obvious.

Dempsey1238

10-02-2007, 11:25 PM

It was. Ali took a 3 count.

Marciano Frazier

10-03-2007, 12:50 AM

Actually, judging by the film, I think their legs are a little far apart at the time Ali goes down for Wepner to be standing on his foot. It looks to me like Ali is going backwards a bit off-balance, possibly about to slip, and then Wepner connects with a relatively ineffectual body blow at just the right moment and does cause Ali to fall. A flash knockdown? Absolutely. But I think it was at least arguably a real one.

Blacc Jesus

10-03-2007, 01:08 AM

Ali did not complain when it was ruled a knockdown either.
He went off on the ref during an interview with Cosell soon after the fight.

mcvey

10-03-2007, 07:03 AM

NickHudson

10-03-2007, 07:57 AM

I have seen the Wepner KD several times, and am fully satisfied it was a consequence of Ali's foot being stepped on. The punch itself was a non-entity to the midsection.

I do agree that the evidence is not conclusive though, as you cant actually see the fighters feet at the time of the KD.

Mendoza

10-03-2007, 08:01 AM

Sorry the post was intended for the poster who described Wepner as such,namely Thad Spencer,I thought Id edited it ,apologies.

Apology accepted. For the record, I don’t think you’re a bad poster.

groove

10-03-2007, 08:15 AM

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Mendoza

10-03-2007, 08:37 AM

But was Ali already on his way down before Wepner stepped on his foot? This is the $64,000 question. Wepner seems to land the punch first, then put his foot on a falling Ali's foot as he stepped forward.

I know a thing or two about photography. There is a chance this photo was edited. Wepner's ankle and foot look a bit funny in this photo. I'm serious. It looks like someone might have doctored this photo and rotated Chuck's ankle to the left. If someone steps on the front of your foot, odds are your toes hit the mat. Ali's toe portion of his shoe is not pressed to the matt. It’s in the air. I want to see the film

NickHudson

10-03-2007, 08:54 AM

Mendoza

10-03-2007, 09:14 AM

Mendoza,

in your earlier post you state

1) Wepner's punch was hard
2) Ali got up and looked shaken up

Have we both watched the same fight??? For my money, the punch was feeble and Ali didnt look in the slightest bit shaken up...

Can you expand a bit on this? Also, the point about photo doctoring. This is a fairly serious accusation, do you have any harder evidence? Wepner's ankle looks normal to me as does Ali's foot.

Sure.Ali did not bounce right up from that knockdown. From my memory he grabbed on the ropes after he got up and shook his head a bit to clear out the cobwebs. Fighters who grab the ropes to get up / shake their head do not have all their balance. I think the punch hurt Ali a bit. Is this one on youtube?

As for the photo, it could very well be doctored. Many sports phots have been doctored in the past. Wepner's ankle at one point looks oddly twisted.

I think a film that shows Wepner'e entire body would give us the truth.

fg2227

10-03-2007, 09:34 AM

Just watched the knockdown on youtube. Sorry folks no knockdown! Wishful thinking.

fg2227

10-03-2007, 09:36 AM

Also who said he was shakin and neded the ropes is talking through his ass WATCH the tape.

ChrisPontius

10-03-2007, 10:31 AM

Just watched the knockdown on youtube. Sorry folks no knockdown! Wishful thinking.
What do you mean?

I have two camera angles of the fight and in neither one you can see their feet. Ali goes down right at the moment the punch connects.

The photo shows that Wepners foot is near Ali's when he was already going down. It hardly looked like he stepped down on it though. Who knows what happened? Ali didn't complain to the referee at all and held on after. The referee saw it and ruled it a knockdown. The crowd didn't boo. These are facts.

Sorry, but i don't find that conclusive evidence at all.

fg2227

10-03-2007, 11:18 AM

it was a body punch, And nobody in History could takea body punch like Ali, now are you telling me that chuck knocked him down with a body punch.

In the words of Chuck himself "it wasn't a great punch he was off balance" muhammad Ali Through the eyes of the world 2003 (i wonder how he was off balance)

Darthmage

10-03-2007, 11:23 AM

True - Wepner punched his ribcage so hard that it quaked all the way through to his SHAKY chin - which was AGAIN proved to be GRADE A CHINA :nod

he exposed ALI in my opinion, that was the blueprint of how to beat Ali right there. That's why Holmes and Berbick were able to beat ALI.
:rasta

fg2227

10-03-2007, 11:26 AM

Darthmag come on don't bullshit me. The Great chuck epner exposed Ali. NO WAY APOLLO!

ChrisPontius

10-03-2007, 11:28 AM

it was a body punch, And nobody in History could takea body punch like Ali, now are you telling me that chuck knocked him down with a body punch.

Stranger things have happened.

Ali took flush punches from Foreman, Liston (only a few, but still), tons from Frazier, Norton and some from Shavers, without going down except only once against Frazier.

Now imagine him fighting an average 180lb Brittish fighter and getting knocked down and hurt worse than he ever was against the former listed great punchers.
Sounds unbelievable right? But it happened anyway.
Who could believe a journeyman Bert Cooper could have Holyfield ready to be knocked out when other skilled punchers like Tyson, Lewis and Bowe couldn't do it? (actually Bowe did do it once in 3 fights, but that seemed to be more Holyfield gassing than Bowe knocking him out).

Just because it's unlikely doesn't mean we should just assume it wasn't a legit knockdown without clear evidence.

fg2227

10-03-2007, 11:59 AM

what do you think chuck mean when he said ali was off balance?

groove

10-03-2007, 01:14 PM

he stepped on his toes, he's stepping back off Ali's toe in that pic. When the punch caught Ali, Wepner was standing fully on his toe. Ali took devastating body shots without ever going down, that punch by Wepner was nothing to Ali but standing on his toe was a nice move cuz Ali couldn't move and therefore lost his balance and ended up on his ass.

Manassa

10-03-2007, 01:31 PM

After much research, analysis, consideration and deliberation over the past two days, reviewing the footage over and over again, frame-by-frame, I can definitely say: Ali went down.

cross_trainer

10-03-2007, 01:33 PM

True - Wepner punched his ribcage so hard that it quaked all the way through to his SHAKY chin - which was AGAIN proved to be GRADE A CHINA :nod

Right you are, Chris.

It's amazing how much Ali is overrated by his fans. When you're floored NOT ONCE, not twice, but MULTIPLE TIMES :yep by B-level fighters and journeymen, it's a sure sign of a GRADE A China Chin. :nod

Talk about a CHINA CHIN! :lol: With CHINA in it! :lol: China made of CHINA! :lol:

If only he had a chin like Holyfield. :nod

Mendoza

10-03-2007, 01:44 PM

What do you mean?

I have two camera angles of the fight and in neither one you can see their feet. Ali goes down right at the moment the punch connects.

The photo shows that Wepners foot is near Ali's when he was already going down. It hardly looked like he stepped down on it though. Who knows what happened? Ali didn't complain to the referee at all and held on after. The referee saw it and ruled it a knockdown. The crowd didn't boo. These are facts.

Sorry, but i don't find that conclusive evidence at all.

When Ali gets up does he grab the ropes and shake his head a bit? Yes or no. I have seen the fight, but I do not own it.

ChrisPontius

10-03-2007, 01:46 PM

Right you are, Chris.

It's amazing how much Ali is overrated by his fans. When you're floored NOT ONCE, not twice, but MULTIPLE TIMES :yep by B-level fighters and journeymen, it's a sure sign of a GRADE A China Chin. :nod

Talk about a CHINA CHIN! :lol: With CHINA in it! :lol: China made of CHINA! :lol:

If only he had a chin like Holyfield. :nod

:lol:

On a serious note though, i pulled out the film and took some screendumps:

Wepner steps in and throws a jab:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Wepner actually threw a double jab (the man has skill!), of which the second you can see here.

Now, an important note.
Wepner stepped in while throwing the first, and while throwing the second jab, he planted his feet: particularly his left foot, which is supposedly going to step on Ali's right foot. In the next image it is clear that his left foot is NOT on Ali's right foot:

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After he threw that second jab, he prepares to throw the right hand, while retaining the same position with his feet, which are already planted:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

......And lands the right hand.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Is Wepner standing on Ali's foot? It is certainly possible. It is not clear to see however.

Another thing to be noted is that despite this is Wepner, this was actually a very good punch. He was in range, set his feet, twisted his body from all the way back and lands the punch perfectly on Ali's body. In fact he hits him on the back a little bit, probably hit the kidney area. Anyone who has been punched there knows that it is a very painful area and can be paralysing, although it usually takes a second before that sets in, whereas this seemed instantaneous. :think

Last picture, you can see part of Wepner's foot but it is not clear whether he stood on it during the punch or not.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

groove

10-03-2007, 02:53 PM

thanks for the shots. i defo think on the 4th shot when he's landing with the right, Wepners left foot is on Ali's right toes.

JohnBKelly

10-03-2007, 05:22 PM

Stepping on the other guys foot or making them trip over your lead foot is a classic trick, very common among southpaws incidentally watch a few of Herol Graham's fights for examples. I'm sure a club fighter like Wepner tried this one few times during his career, its funny really that it worked on Ali.