Kelly Pavlik vs Librado Andrade

[the_what]

Here is a solid first fight at 168 for Pavlik. How would you think it would turn out? Andrade has an iron chin. And is a strong in your face fighter. Would this be a terrible fight for Pavlik as his debut at 168 or would Pavlik tear him apart? Either way it would be entertaining.

[EspadaYdaga]

Koki Kameda

[alex-boxer42]

Ive seen this guy fight and his chin is unbelievable. Pavlik UD, if he Kod him hed be a true KO king.

[brooklyn1550]

Pavlik by UD

[Amsterdam]

You guys aren't understanding that Pavlik lacks Kessler's precision, speed and defence, but that his power is probably not that much better.

Andrade will land on Pavlik and walk him down because Pavlik doesn't circle well and can't push Andrade backwards. Andrade took 5 shot pin point combo's from Kessler that were fully flush and kept coming and never ran out of stamina.

Andrade by KO, mid to late rounds. This is an easy fight to predict.

[alex-boxer42]

You guys aren't understanding that Pavlik lacks Kessler's precision, speed and defence, but that his power is probably not that much better.

Andrade will land on Pavlik and walk him down because Pavlik doesn't circle well and can't push Andrade backwards. Andrade took 5 shot pin point combo's from Kessler that were fully flush and kept coming and never ran out of stamina.

Andrade by KO, mid to late rounds. This is an easy fight to predict.
Amsterdamn, whats this? LoL everytime Pavlik is brought in a possible fight disscussion you seem to find it very easy to predict the outcome. This time hed get easily beat? I have to think about this one. For now I think he out points him, not as gracefully as kessler, but in a more slugfest kind of way with possible knockdowns in the fight going either way. Thats all that comes to my mind for now.

[alex-boxer42]

wow, that is by far the most ''stupid'' prediction by you since Im on this forum..his power is probably not that much betterr?you seem to overate Kessler power and underrated Pavlik power, anyway you the one who underrated Bute so I don't take your comment seriously:verysad
lol jk!
one factor to be aware of is although these guys are roughly the same size, kelly has been fighting the smaller opponent at middleweight, hence higher knocout percentage. Kessler is in another class when it comes to skills as well.

[Amsterdam]

Amsterdamn, whats this? LoL everytime Pavlik is brought in a possible fight disscussion you seem to find it very easy to predict the outcome. This time hed get easily beat? I have to think about this one. For now I think he out points him, not as gracefully as kessler, but in a more slugfest kind of way with possible knockdowns in the fight going either way. Thats all that comes to my mind for now.

Here some dead set factors -

Kessler is quicker, more precise, a far better defence, throws fabulous combinations and lands at a high connect rate. Andrade could get nothing done because instead of just backing up, Kessler effectively circled and countered, this NOT something Pavlik is as proficient at.

This bout would end up being a war, only Pavlik's chin is up for grabs considering how Taylor dropped him, Andrade is huge with a long reach and has endless stamina and will be around when Pavlik tires out.

Pavlik doesn't hit harder than Kessler by the way, I am certain of that, Pavlik has always broken his opponents down, more so than just Julian Jackson style 1 shot KO's. Kessler breaks them down in a similiar way.

Andrade will not be backed up by Pavlik, he will throw shots from awkward angles and will in fact walk Pavlik down and KO him.

[EspadaYdaga]

Koki Kameda

[Amsterdam]

wow, that is by far the most ''stupid'' prediction by you since Im on this forum..his power is probably not that much betterr?you seem to overate Kessler power and underrated Pavlik power, anyway you the one who underrated Bute so I don't take your comment seriously:verysad
lol jk!

I rate Bute well, what are you talking about?

Yes, Pavlik has shown KO power, has broken down guys and has finished them impressively, but I doubt he hits THAT much harder than Kessler does and is nowhere near as accurate or as quick.

Kessler is very accurate and extremely fast with his counter punches and combinations.

[brooklyn1550]

Kessler is definitely the more precise, accurate, and quicker puncher, but I think Pavlik is heavier handed. The kid has 14" fists which are bigger than most of the heavyweight champions throughout history.

Head to head, Kessler beats him - I have no doubts about that.

[Amsterdam]

Kessler is definitely the more precise, accurate, and quicker puncher, but I think Pavlik is heavier handed. The kid has 14" fists which are bigger than most of the heavyweight champions throughout history.

Head to head, Kessler beats him - I have no doubts about that.

And I was just accurately pointing out that Pavlik will not be able to keep Andrade at bay like Kessler did. Kessler is very fast, deceptively, very precise and has a great defence, Pavlik is the opposite, Andrade may even be a bit quicker in terms of 'movement'.

Andrade throws a high volume also, will land his KO shots on Pavlik and walk him down.

Pavlik cannot box for 12 like Kessler did, Kessler threw something like 950 punches and landed 400, that's extreme accuracy that Pavlik lacks, on top of the major speed difference.

Kessler is 3x the fighter Pavlik is, no doubt. I am not being biased just because Kessler is fighting Calzaghe, I am being very honest on the matter and have stood by this way before the Taylor bout, which you Brooklyn have seen me do.

[Charles187]

Pavlik KO - I dont really rate andrade

[Amsterdam]

and why do you have Kessler in your avatar? I remember you as one of the best fan of Calzaghe on this board?

Why can't I support all underrated great fighters that don't get the same press as others?

Kessler is masterful, if he beats Calzaghe I will be sad that Calzaghe loses, but I will also be highly impressed of Kessler and will be happy for him that he got a supremely good signature win under his belt at only 29 and has 5 years to go.

Kessler is class, he's a classy man and an amazing boxer-puncher, one of the best that I've seen to be in fact of the european stand up style. I really like him and wish him the best win or lose against Joe.

[Amsterdam]

Pavlik KO - I dont really rate andrade

Kessler lands at least 300 power bombs and many in rapid succession and Andrade takes them like they are just good stiff jabs and somehow Pavlik jumps up in weight with his lower accuracy and speed and wins by KO?

Christ mate, it took him seven rounds to do in both Miranda and Taylor, smaller guys than Andrade who have actually been HURT in the past. Andrade has one of the best chins in all of boxing, it is solid titanium.

Or maybe you don't remember it taking 8 rounds to do in the smaller Zertuche, or 9 to stop Zuniga on cuts? But he KO's Andrade? Please.

[Charles187]

Kessler lands at least 300 power bombs and many in rapid succession and Andrade takes them like they are just good stiff jabs and somehow Pavlik jumps up in weight with his lower accuracy and speed and wins by KO?

Christ mate, it took him seven rounds to do in both Miranda and Taylor, smaller guys than Andrade who have actually been HURT in the past. Andrade has one of the best chins in all of boxing, it is solid titanium.

Or maybe you don't remember it taking 8 rounds to do in the smaller Zertuche, or 9 to stop Zuniga on cuts? But he KO's Andrade? Please.

Maybe UD then, Still dont rate him. Agree with everything you said about kessler and calzaghie though - I cant decide between them!

[Amsterdam]

Well that easy do to some quote like that man..
Kessler wasnt able to KO Mundine, the same guy that Otkke knocked in 2..the guy who had no power..

Mundine has fought a variety of hard hitters sense then but has managed to not get KOed, do you want to know why?

The guy's defence is A class level, it's very good and he's very fast and tricky to fight. Mundine is a very good fighter, he's a better fighter than both Taylor and Pavlik IMO, but he of course has no resume at the moment and may never fight again.

Mundine's chin is china obviously, which is why he can never be an A level fighter, but he's certainly a B+ who's not easy for most to fight.

Mundine also has an awful style for Kessler, good mover who's very fast and can control the pace, Kessler adapted and shut him out down the stretch, which showed Kessler's class if you hadn't noticed this.

[Amsterdam]

Maybe UD then, Still dont rate him. Agree with everything you said about kessler and calzaghie though - I cant decide between them!

I rate him, because anybody with less speed or less defence than Kessler would have been in trouble because the guy can take anything and throw at very awkward angles and on top of that, he has endless stamina and 1 punch KO power. Kessler was able to circle and stand behind a great defence while countering, that is not what Kelly Pavlik does, Kelly Pavlik pressure's and trades, which means he's pressuring against a much stronger guy and trading with a guy who can take his best shots and keep coming, this is easy to predict.

Just because he doesn't look good, doesn't mean he cannot be effective against anybody but a true elite in skills and Pavlik's a step down from Kessler's level, so take that into consideration please.

I say Andrade in 5-7 rounds.

[Axe]

Andrade is a C level guy and Pavlik would walk over him.

Andrade has no defence. :good

[Amsterdam]

Andrade has no defence. :good

Pavlik has a good defence?:lol:

[Axe]

You guys aren't understanding that Pavlik lacks Kessler's precision, speed and defence, but that his power is probably not that much better.

Andrade will land on Pavlik and walk him down because Pavlik doesn't circle well and can't push Andrade backwards. Andrade took 5 shot pin point combo's from Kessler that were fully flush and kept coming and never ran out of stamina.

Andrade by KO, mid to late rounds. This is an easy fight to predict.

No way Andrade can win this fight, these two are a class apart. :nono

[Vantage_West]

andrade is a hard tough guy with alright power not much skill but a great jaw.it would be nice to see what pavlik would do to him but andrade was very very flawed.

no point in a fight kelley would win

[Amsterdam]

No way Andrade can win this fight, these two are a class apart. :nono

You all underrate Andrade here. Andrade and Pavlik are on the same basic level, they both have different strengths and Pavlik is more skilled, but Andrade has the same kind of power with better stamina, a bit quicker and much more durability with a titanium chin, the workrate is the same also. Pressure actually goes slightly to Andrade.

Andrade got shut out badly by Kessler, but Kessler is at least two levels above Kelly Pavlik.

[EspadaYdaga]

Koki Kameda

[Amsterdam]

and I guess he beat easily Bute in 3

Andrade has a good shot at Bute, Bute again lacks Kessler's power, defence and precision, Andrade could get inside and be effective down the stretch.

Not in 3, but a late KO or maybe a UD if Bute loses rounds on being too defensive against a guy who will not stop coming. I sense that Bute won't deal with non stop pressure well.

[Amsterdam]

andrade is a hard tough guy with alright power not much skill but a great jaw.it would be nice to see what pavlik would do to him but andrade was very very flawed.

no point in a fight kelley would win

What the hell is going on here?

When has Pavlik shown the defence, precision, speed, timing and accuracy of Mikkel Kessler? Pavlik has virtually no defence except some standard head movement and his own workrate, did you know Andrade actually has a freakish 83 inch reach?

[brooklyn1550]

Kessler is 3x the fighter Pavlik is, no doubt. I am not being biased just because Kessler is fighting Calzaghe, I am being very honest on the matter and have stood by this way before the Taylor bout, which you Brooklyn have seen me do.

All of us can be biased, but you keep it to a minimal. And with all of your predictions, you give solid evidence and facts to back them up.:good

[Axe]

You all underrate Andrade here. Andrade and Pavlik are on the same basic level, they both have different strengths and Pavlik is more skilled, but Andrade has the same kind of power with better stamina, a bit quicker and much more durability with a titanium chin, the workrate is the same also. Pressure actually goes slightly to Andrade.

Andrade got shut out badly by Kessler, but Kessler is at least two levels above Kelly Pavlik.

To answer your earlier question, yes, Pavlik does have a defence. He is definitely no defensive specialist :lol:, but in his fights, punches thrown by the opponent does not equal punches landed on his face, ala Librado Andrade. :yep

Andrade may have better stamina but his boxing skills are inferior, as is his power and handspeed. Chin goes to Andrade, but it wouldn't matter.

Have you forgotten how little Andrade uses his reach, and how much Pavlik uses it? Pavlik beats Librado with his jab alone. Easy UD, imo.

[Amsterdam]

Dude, Andrade is a fucking BUM. You make him out to some world beater just because he took a pounding from Kessler

Christ you people are unreal. Did I not clearly say that Andrade can beat MANY guys under the 'A' level?

Including Pavlik, who is truly nothing more than a B level solid guy who just dethroned an overrated joke of a champion. Pavlik doesn't have the necessary ability to hold Andrade off of him and will NOT be backing Andrade up, this would be a quick war and the guy with the better chin and stamina obviously wins a ******* where defence is seldom used.

[Amsterdam]

Overatted joke of champion?
You are unreal, no he wasnt all that good like HBO try to put that in the mouth, but Jermain Taylor was a good champion, god damn, even if in your opinion he doesnt have beat Hopkins and Wright, he does give them a hard fight, that wasnt like Hopkins and Winky dominated Taylor! damn

Hopkins and Wright lack the intangibles at this point to throughly beat Taylor, I said this before the Pavlik bout and the Pavlik bout backs this up perfectly. Give Winky proper MW power and he'd have won by KO just like Pavlik did, give Hopkins his prime workrate and it'd have been the same, Hopkins by stoppage.

A 40+ Hopkins and fading Wright are not the BEST fighters in the world anymore.

[alex-boxer42]

I think you might be understiamating kelly's jab, speed, and toughness. Plus, whos to say he wont improve on his weaknesses if this fight was to come about. I think he wins a sloberknocker, although I have a lot of respect for Andrade, kelly has beaten the better opponents.

[Astola]

I agre on everything Amsterdam has posted. But im not 100% certain that Andrade beats Pavlik in 8 or less.

But.

I mean - How on earth will Pavlik be able to take the pressure from Andrade. We all saw Andrade getting his ass whooped so bad and yet he kept coming forward!

Kessler is by far a better defensive fighter and a technically more superior fighter than Kelly Pavlik. It not even up for discussion. Its fact.

Kelly may have a slight power advantage but what the hell does it matter, when the guy standing in front of him is Andrade? You know, Pavlik wont even land the same amount of shots as Kessler did.




BTW - Andrade is no bum. Just because Kessler made him look silly doesnt automatically mean that he's a bum. People stating this didnt see the fight. Andrade is as solid as they come + KO power and a terrible awkward style.

Andrade KO 10 Pavlik.:deal

[Astola]

I actually made a poll about this fight: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

But dudes - slow down on the Pavlik hype.

The guy is a very good come forward fighter with a solid jab and very impressive power. Furthermore he apparently has chin and a good offensive game + killer instinct.

But NO defence, speed, footwork. He would get slaughtered by Calzaghe or Kessler.

[Amsterdam]

I agre on everything Amsterdam has posted. But im not 100% certain that Andrade beats Pavlik in 8 or less.

But.

I mean - How on earth will Pavlik be able to take the pressure from Andrade. We all saw Andrade getting his ass whooped so bad and yet he kept coming forward!

Kessler is by far a better defensive fighter and a technically more superior fighter than Kelly Pavlik. It not even up for discussion. Its fact.

Kelly may have a slight power advantage but what the hell does it matter, when the guy standing in front of him is Andrade? You know, Pavlik wont even land the same amount of shots as Kessler did.




BTW - Andrade is no bum. Just because Kessler made him look silly doesnt automatically mean that he's a bum. People stating this didnt see the fight. Andrade is as solid as they come + KO power and a terrible awkward style.

Andrade KO 10 Pavlik.:deal

Give me a break, Pavlik is going to start getting backed up as early as round 2 and it's a downward spiral from there.

Andrade in 5. I hope it gets made and hope we get odds.

Furthermore, I hope the loser of MK-JC gets Pavlik, we'd still get good odds for a dead certainty.:lol:

[Astola]

Give me a break, Pavlik is going to start getting backed up as early as round 2 and it's a downward spiral from there.

Andrade in 5. I hope it gets made and hope we get odds.

Furthermore, I hope the loser of MK-JC gets Pavlik, we'd still get good odds for a dead certainty.:lol:


I believe that the beating Kelly took in the 2 against Taylor prooves that he might be able to go as far as the 10'th round.

I was impressed by Pavlik getting up after those shots. He is no easy man to kill.:deal


But yeah - If this fight is made Im gonna bet heavy on Andrade.

[Amsterdam]

I believe that the beating Kelly took in the 2 against Taylor prooves that he might be able to go as far as the 10'th round.

I was impressed by Pavlik getting up after those shots. He is no easy man to kill.:deal


But yeah - If this fight is made Im gonna bet heavy on Andrade.

Here is the thing Astola, Taylor is by no means a puncher. Couldn't put a dent in Ouma or Spinks, took 9 rounds to stop the chinny Raul Marquez and then there are other examples also.

Andrade hits 3x as hard as Taylor, Pavlik has good survival skills, but he will be KOed mid rounds IMO.

Andrade will win regardless, Pavlik will be backed up and can't fight well backing up.

[alex-boxer42]

Zuniga vs Andrade
I got Zuniga easy decision.
What have you to say about this one Amsterdamn?:hey

[Astola]

Here is the thing Astola, Taylor is by no means a puncher. Couldn't put a dent in Ouma or Spinks, took 9 rounds to stop the chinny Raul Marquez and then there are other examples also.

Andrade hits 3x as hard as Taylor, Pavlik has good survival skills, but he will be KOed mid rounds IMO.

Andrade will win regardless, Pavlik will be backed up and can't fight well backing up.
I agree on Taylors power. But he still got hit clean - and it was almost just a flash kd.

[Amsterdam]

Zuniga vs Andrade
I got Zuniga easy decision.
What have you to say about this one Amsterdamn?:hey

Let's look at some factors -

- Zuniga has a poor defence, is small and has little power.

- The crude as hell Oganov(I picked Zuniga in this and have evidence) was still able to land some clean single shots on Zuniga here and there and stun him, Andrade is 4 levels above Oganov.

- Zuniga can be bullied and pressured.

- Andrade needs something serious to stop him coming forward relentlessly, what does Zuniga possess to do this? Nothing.

- Andrade has disposed of Zuniga level fighters many times.

Basically, I think you're off base and know little about analysing and picking bouts if you really believe Zuniga beats Andrade.

[Amsterdam]

I agree on Taylors power. But he still got hit clean - and it was almost just a flash kd.

No, he was really hurt and was lucky to survive, watch it again if you get a chance. Andrade renders Pavlik useless just on making him fight backwards alone.

[Astola]

No, he was really hurt and was lucky to survive, watch it again if you get a chance. Andrade renders Pavlik useless just on making him fight backwards alone.

will watch again.

Agree on the analysis..

[Dekkers]

No, he was really hurt and was lucky to survive, watch it again if you get a chance. Andrade renders Pavlik useless just on making him fight backwards alone.

It's crazy to think about the sort of support beating an American name gives you. You'd probably get around $3.00 on Andrade for this bout if it was to happen, and looking at the way each fighter matches up Andrade by late stoppage is the most probable outcome.

[Caliboxing]

Andrade was just folowing Kessler around blindly, getting beaten up and didn't show any boxing intelligence. To beat Pavlik, you'll need some boxing intelligence.

[HandsOfGold]

Pavlik tees off on Andrade's melon same way Kessler did. Here's the difference...ref, Doctor or commission would be forced to stop the punishment being absorbed by Andrade thus giving Pavlik a TKO win.

[alex-boxer42]

Let's look at some factors -

- Zuniga has a poor defence, is small and has little power.

- The crude as hell Oganov(I picked Zuniga in this and have evidence) was still able to land some clean single shots on Zuniga here and there and stun him, Andrade is 4 levels above Oganov.

- Zuniga can be bullied and pressured.

- Andrade needs something serious to stop him coming forward relentlessly, what does Zuniga possess to do this? Nothing.

- Andrade has disposed of Zuniga level fighters many times.

Basically, I think you're off base and know little about analysing and picking bouts if you really believe Zuniga beats Andrade.

To be honest I havent seen much of each fighter but made a quick desicion from what I remembered. I was very impressed with Zuniga in that fight wether Oganov was overrated or not and I think if he can fight like that 12 rounds hed beat Andrade.

And as for me knowing little about analyzing fights. I knew exactly what would happen in the Taylor fight and it did. You picked round 5, I picked round seven(not sure if I posted that or not), knowing Taylor was going to be prepared well and wouldnt get caught until he started to fade but definitly would not be able to handle as much of a beating as Miranda did. I also knew how bad his recovery skills and defense were enough to know that as soon as he got caught with a punch, Pavlik would finish it without him getting up. I rest my case.

[saul_ir34]

HELL OF A FIGHT THIS WOULD BE!!! i watched Andrade's fight with Kessler and i kept waiting for him to go down or appear stunned at least after all that punishment. i thought maybe Kessler didnt have that much power at the time but i looked him up and hes got a high KO percentage. so i dont know if its just the level of opposition he has had or Andrade has a chin carved out of wood.

[bachatu]

I was very impressed with Zuniga in that fight wether Oganov was overrated or not and I think if he can fight like that 12 rounds hed beat Andrade.
.

Zuniga fought his heart out and wore out the lesser skilled Oganov. Can you believe he had a perfect record, and all coming by way of knockout.Then again, coming into the fight, he fought exclusively overseas. This first fight in the U.S was supposed to be a test to see if he was a fluke or for real; he flunked bad and got KTFO.

How bad was Pavlik hurt when Zuniga knocked him down? Was it a flash knock down or what..?

[Clearly Cool]

Here is the thing Astola, Taylor is by no means a puncher. Couldn't put a dent in Ouma or Spinks, took 9 rounds to stop the chinny Raul Marquez and then there are other examples also.

Andrade hits 3x as hard as Taylor, Pavlik has good survival skills, but he will be KOed mid rounds IMO.

Andrade will win regardless, Pavlik will be backed up and can't fight well backing up.

I have read through this thread and completely agree with you.

This is a terrible fight for Pavlik. Its one thing to KO some tough middleweights, but to go up in weight and beat a guy that has a granite chin, great stamina, great heart and solid power.....I doubt it.

Andrade took some amazing shots (in combination too!) from Kessler, and didnt budge an inch, Pavlik even if he had better power, he wouldnt land as often or with the same accuracy as Mikkel.

Now im not saying Andrade is better than Taylor, of even Pavlik, but this is a huge stylistic nightmare for Pavlik. Just as Kessler was a stylistic nightmare for Andrade.

Actually come to think of it, I was actually impressed with Andrades performance against Kessler, because even in a crushing loss he displayed intangibles that many greats would envy. He kept going until the final bell and im looking foward to seeing his career progress.

Andrade by stoppage.

[Amsterdam]

I have read through this thread and completely agree with you.

This is a terrible fight for Pavlik. Its one thing to KO some tough middleweights, but to go up in weight and beat a guy that has a granite chin, great stamina, great heart and solid power.....I doubt it.

Andrade took some amazing shots (in combination too!) from Kessler, and didnt budge an inch, Pavlik even if he had better power, he wouldnt land as often or with the same accuracy as Mikkel.

Now im not saying Andrade is better than Taylor, of even Pavlik, but this is a huge stylistic nightmare for Pavlik. Just as Kessler was a stylistic nightmare for Andrade.

Actually come to think of it, I was actually impressed with Andrades performance against Kessler, because even in a crushing loss he displayed intangibles that many greats would envy. He kept going until the final bell and im looking foward to seeing his career progress.

Andrade by stoppage.

I'm glad we feel the same on this issue. I am not excusing Andrade's total lack of defence here, or his sloppy punches. But he has relatively okay timing, a large workrate, an uncrackable jaw and superhuman durability it seems with a full tank of stamina and he pressure's very effectively but was met by a true elite in Kessler.

Andrade has the intangibles to give any sub-A level absolute hell and if Kessler is A level, then Pavlik is a solid B, and that's where I rate Andrade also. People don't recognise different kinds of strengths, nobody every will claim Andrade is a highly skilled fighter, but he surely can develop into an effective fighter given his intangibles.

[alex-boxer42]

Zuniga fought his heart out and wore out the lesser skilled Oganov. Can you believe he had a perfect record, and all coming by way of knockout.Then again, coming into the fight, he fought exclusively overseas. This first fight in the U.S was supposed to be a test to see if he was a fluke or for real; he flunked bad and got KTFO.

How bad was Pavlik hurt when Zuniga knocked him down? Was it a flash knock down or what..?

I have not seen the Zuniga fight against Pavlik, if anyone knows where I can Id love a link plz.

I remember I heard it was oganovs dream to win by decision lol. Not surprised he got his ass handed to him at all. It was all hype, anyone who knocks all their opponents out and is undefeated is gunna get it.

[jc]

Entertaining fight but im edging to Pavlik. he has the better boxing ability with some defence, while Andrade is a tough 168er, but not technically sound. Andrades chin will keep him in it, but i say Pavlik wins over 10 or 12 quite easily.

[Rollo]

Pavlik finishes what Kessler couldn't...


I doubt it, Andrade´s chin is from out of space.

[MrStayman]

Andrade was just folowing Kessler around blindly, getting beaten up and didn't show any boxing intelligence. To beat Pavlik, you'll need some boxing intelligence.
Yup. And he throws slow, looping shots. I think Pavlik outclasses Andrade.

Key here is that Andrade throws like a snail. Or, at the very least, telegraphs his punches.

I disagree with previous posters in that I think Andrade IS technically sound though... in the chin department.