The most under rated thing about old time heavyweight champions is....

[Mendoza]

The most under rated thing about old time heavyweight champions is....

After watching some of the up close and clear sparring sessions, I'm beginning to think the most under rated thing about the old timers in general was their speed and athletic ability. Dempsey could move and hit extremely well on the up close sparring sessions. Corbett was kid quick with his hands and feet and could feint a man out of his shoes. Johnson was smooth and very coordinated. Jeffries looks like superman working out.

While I agree 100% that Jeffries. Johnson, Corbett, and Dempsey lack modern techniques, I think it’s important to know that the game evolved. If something wasn't invented or practiced back then, we should not assume they could not do it today. I've always tried to rate the man, not the era he was boxing in.

Could Jeffries, Johnson, Corbett, and Dempsey adapt to newer boxing techniques which include the fundamentals of defense, using the jab, combination punching and such? If they show good athletic ability, which they all have, I think each man could do it as easily as a fish takes to water. That's why these up close and clear sparring session are extremely important when all that we have on the fighters in the ring are old / grainy films shot at a distance.

In closing, were the old timers crude on technique by modern standards? Perhaps. Were the old timers short on athletic ability? No way!

Today things in the heavyweight division seemed to be reversed. Many are big on technique and power, but average on athletic ability.

Thoughts?

[lefthook31]

Maybe cruder on technique but ten times tougher mentally. Boxing is not about what it used to be and for that we dont see the best of what a fighter is capable of.

[Sardu]

They generally had to pay their dues more on the way up. Had to earn their shot at the title rather than be inactive for over year (Gerry Cooney: May 1981 to June 1982 shot at Holmes). Although, as I recall that fight was supposed to take place in March but got postponed until June of that year. I believe it was an injury Cooney suffered in training.

[amhlilhaus]

What new techniques have been developed? you mean modern nutrition and weightlifting? ever see a modern heavyweight the last ten years fight hard for 12 rounds, fight after fight?

[bodhi]

The most under rated thing about old time heavyweight champions is....

After watching some of the up close and clear sparring sessions, I'm beginning to think the most under rated thing about the old timers in general was their speed and athletic ability. Dempsey could move and hit extremely well on the up close sparring sessions. Corbett was kid quick with his hands and feet and could feint a man out of his shoes. Johnson was smooth and very coordinated. Jeffries looks like superman working out.

Most definitly! Especially Jeffries and Johnson!


While I agree 100% that Jeffries. Johnson, Corbett, and Dempsey lack modern techniques, I think it’s important to know that the game evolved. If something wasn't invented or practiced back then, we should not assume they could not do it today. I've always tried to rate the man, not the era he was boxing in.

Corbett, Jeffries and Johnson did not lack modern techniques! they just used technique that was adapted to the rules they were fighting under. Dempsey was a guy of the transition era so it´s even more wrong with him.
The bold thing is what should be done. That´s the proper way and the method used in historic sciences. You can´t judge an event, or here a fighter, by modern standards but you have to judge them by the standards of their time. Else you won´t be able to understand what you are looking at. :good


Could Jeffries, Johnson, Corbett, and Dempsey adapt to newer boxing techniques which include the fundamentals of defense, using the jab, combination punching and such? If they show good athletic ability, which they all have, I think each man could do it as easily as a fish takes to water. That's why these up close and clear sparring session are extremely important when all that we have on the fighters in the ring are old / grainy films shot at a distance.

Of course they could. I have absolutly no doubt about that. I disagree with the bold statement. Watch Johnson, he is very sound defensivly, uses the jab and threw combinations - watch the first 10-12 rounds of the Willard fight, you´ll see some nice combinations from him.
Those things didn´t look exactly like it does nowadays whoch is partly the fault of the films and partly of the rules they fought at. Those "modern techniques" already existed but where adapted to the rules of the time. Of course it looks different.


In closing, were the old timers crude on technique by modern standards? Perhaps. Were the old timers short on athletic ability? No way!

Yeah, they look crude by modern standards. But that doesn´t mean they were crude by the standards of their time.


Today things in the heavyweight division seemed to be reversed. Many are big on technique and power, but average on athletic ability.

Thoughts?

Jeffries and Johnson would probably top today´s division if they would adept to today´s rules. Dempsey would easily rule cruiswerweight.

[turpinr]

ali would ko jeffries,corbett and fitzsimmons without breaking sweat.
comparing those old timers to modern fighters is a joke.roy jones junior,who i'm not a fan off, would make jeffries look like a right twat

[Seamus]

I don't think Jeffries or Johnson would take the average tough man competition today, let alone make a dent in the rankings.

[turpinr]

I don't think Jeffries or Johnson would take the average tough man competition today, let alone make a dent in the rankings.:roll:i know.i can see johnson had skills but jeffries was a caveman

[Jersey Joe]

Endurance - the amount of fights they had, and rounds they did, was ridiculous compared to today's fighters. It wasn't uncommon for a champion to fight once a month, and contenders did even more on the way up.

[Flea Man]

They don't need to adapt. There styles may stump more 'modern' fighters due to their perceived awkwardness, at least in accordance with what we expect from a 'modern' fighter in terms of technique.

As awful as it looks, the style Fitz implements against Corbett might frustrate the Hell out of a 'modern' fighter.

MIGHT:good

[Boxed Ears]

I don't think Jeffries or Johnson would take the average tough man competition today, let alone make a dent in the rankings.

I...don't even know what to say to that. :!:

[Seamus]

I...don't even know what to say to that. :!:

Pretty special, I think. Almost poetry.

[TheGreatA]

I've always been more impressed by the sparring sessions of Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries than their actual fights.

[Seamus]

I've always been more impressed by the sparring sessions of Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries than their actual fights.


Neither of them impress me with what they did in the ring. Johnson had enormous cajones for what he did in that era society, almost unprecedented. However, he had a lot of marginal performances against smallish, crude and/or shot fighters. Jeffries also struggled mightily with the same lot.

[TheGreatA]

Neither of them impress me with what they did in the ring. Johnson had enormous cajones for what he did in that era society, almost unprecedented. However, he had a lot of marginal performances against smallish, crude and/or shot fighters. Jeffries also struggled mightily with the same lot.

Would you say that Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries look completely crude in sparring exhibitions such as this:

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3:17

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2:10

or this:

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2:43

So much that they couldn't even compete in today's toughman contests? Obviously an intentional exaggeration by you but still, don't you think they could be competent? I think both of them could very well be molded into modern boxers.

[Seamus]

I would look good against lil' Noah.

Big Jim is pretty light on his feet but he would be a ham n egger today. Seriously.

[TheGreatA]

I would look good against lil' Noah.

Big Jim is pretty light on his feet but he would be a ham n egger today. Seriously.

Do you believe their athletic capabilities are that far behind the likes of John Ruiz, Chris Byrd, Nikolai Valuev, Oleg Maskaev, Sam Peter, Lamon Brewster, James Toney, Monte Barrett, Calvin Brock, Hasim Rahman, Fres Oquendo, Jameel McCline, Eddie Chambers, Sergei Lyakhovich, all men who have recently held titles or done very well on world level?

Would you say that any of those fighters could dominate the late 1800's/early 1900's eras of boxing in more impressive fashion than either Jeffries and Johnson managed?

[lONGCOUNTED]

Do you believe their athletic capabilities are that far behind the likes of John Ruiz, Chris Byrd, Nikolai Valuev, Oleg Maskaev, Sam Peter, Lamon Brewster, James Toney, Monte Barrett, Calvin Brock, Hasim Rahman, Fres Oquendo, Jameel McCline, Eddie Chambers, Sergei Lyakhovich, all men who have recently held titles or done very well on world level?

Would you say that any of those fighters could dominate the late 1800's/early 1900's eras of boxing in more impressive fashion than either Jeffries and Johnson managed?


Well said.

[Mendoza]

I would look good against lil' Noah.

Big Jim is pretty light on his feet but he would be a ham n egger today. Seriously.

Why do you say this? He was big enough, and athletic enough for sure. Stamina and chin were very good. As I said before, if something wasn't invented or taught 50-100 years ago, don't assume the athlete could not adapt if he were alive today.

[Ted Spoon]

In all seriousness, watching a 180lbs Jack Dempsey bend at the waist with speed and dexterity, grace even, to then swoop out of that considerate movement with irresistible fury is something you could not squeeze out of the best of fighters.

Some guys possessed an X-factor that was all their own. What you may sample on Youtube is a portrait of harnessed ability. Working on railroads, in hotels and farms will do wonders for your physical ability. Boxing just about everyday doesn’t hurt either.

The very word 'modern' is an ugly marker-pen, ignorantly striking through unknown quantities. These men had supposed disadvantages that they would turn into an advantage, if you fancied your chances that is...

[Seamus]

Do you believe their athletic capabilities are that far behind the likes of John Ruiz, Chris Byrd, Nikolai Valuev, Oleg Maskaev, Sam Peter, Lamon Brewster, James Toney, Monte Barrett, Calvin Brock, Hasim Rahman, Fres Oquendo, Jameel McCline, Eddie Chambers, Sergei Lyakhovich, all men who have recently held titles or done very well on world level?


No, I think each of the above mentioned would whip the two of them in same night. Honestly.

Athletic abilities? Am I supposed to be impressed Jeffries high jumped 5-10 when I did that at 13 years old? An oaf.

[Seamus]

In all seriousness, watching a 180lbs Jack Dempsey bend at the waist with speed and dexterity, grace even, to then swoop out of that considerate movement with irresistible fury is something you could not squeeze out of the best of fighters.
.

If only he had swooped out of the way of those punches that so often put his ass on the canvas.

Overrated.

[TheGreatA]

No, I think each of the above mentioned would whip the two of them in same night. Honestly.

Athletic abilities? Am I supposed to be impressed Jeffries high jumped 5-10 when I did that at 13 years old? An oaf.

High jumping then wasn't what it's now. The techniques were entirely different. Even the top high jumpers of the day were only jumping about the same amount so Jeffries could have even competed in the Olympics with that result.

So the thread starter's question remains, could Jeffries (or Johnson) compete today with their athletic talents if they were introduced to modern techniques? And you can be sure that Jeffries would be jumping a lot higher with today's technique.

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[Seamus]

High jumping then wasn't what it's now. The techniques were entirely different. Even the top high jumpers of the day were only jumping about the same amount so Jeffries could have even competed in the Olympics with that result.

So the thread starter's question remains, could Jeffries (or Johnson) compete today with their athletic talents if they were introduced to modern techniques? And you can be sure that Jeffries would be jumping a lot higher with today's technique.

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Don't tell me about high jump, son. I got to university on a long jump scholarship (24-2 as a junior) and know plenty about it. 5 foot 10 aint shit for even a 14 year old boy.

And the second of the pictures you post is of the STANDING HIGH JUMP not the traditional running high jump.

Sure, Big Jim was light enough on his feet but he was no Jim Thorpe. A fair athlete. So what? There's been thousands of those since him. Color me "not impressed."

[TheGreatA]

Don't tell me about high jump, son. I got to university on a long jump scholarship (24-2 as a junior) and know plenty about it. 5 foot 10 aint shit for even a 14 year old boy.

And the second of the pictures you post is of the STANDING HIGH JUMP not the traditional running high jump.

Sure, Big Jim was light enough on his feet but he was no Jim Thorpe. A fair athlete. So what? There's been thousands of those since him. Color me "not impressed."

Your post still doesn't say anything. Jeffries did not even jump with the same techniques of today's athletes, so how could you possibly compare them? You're going to base his ability to be a boxer on how high he jumped?

I'm pretty sure if you put all the men on the list of modern fighters that I provided earlier, the chances are they wouldn't prove to be exceptional at high jumping either. Some of their results could be almost comical. Doesn't devalue their worth as boxers.

[bodhi]

The very word 'modern' is an ugly marker-pen, ignorantly striking through unknown quantities. These men had supposed disadvantages that they would turn into an advantage, if you fancied your chances that is...

Yeah, I don´t like the description modern too in that circumstances! It´s like saying the guys of today were better but that´s just not the cause. They fight under different rules and their techniques are more adept to them. That does not make them any better.

[Mendoza]

Don't tell me about high jump, son. I got to university on a long jump scholarship (24-2 as a junior) and know plenty about it. 5 foot 10 aint shit for even a 14 year old boy.

And the second of the pictures you post is of the STANDING HIGH JUMP not the traditional running high jump.

Sure, Big Jim was light enough on his feet but he was no Jim Thorpe. A fair athlete. So what? There's been thousands of those since him. Color me "not impressed."

So, there are high jumpers today who weight 220 pounds and can have their feet clear the bar without a " back flop " technique, and jump over the bar old style?

Who are these athletes?

[Seamus]

So, there are high jumpers today who weight 220 pounds and can have their feet clear the bar without a " back flop " technique, and jump over the bar old style?

Who are these athletes?

Me, for one.

[Boilermaker]

Me, for one.

How high can you jump, under Jeffries conditions?

[Seamus]

How high can you jump, under Jeffries conditions?

5-10 drunk and in my sleep. I tried the high jump maybe 3 or 4 times and went 6-5 in a meet using the flop and a real heavy foam pit. (Though Vladimir Yashchenko went 7 foot 8 1/2 using the straddle technique so don't discount that.) Granted, I was not to the zoftig weight that I am now. However, I have dunked a basketball weighing an even 200 and scaling a towering 5 feet and 11 inches. And I ain't or weren't that special of an athlete. Jeffries' supposed accomplishments do not overly-impress me. Compare him to a real athlete of his own era like Jim Thorpe, who high jumped 6-6 with no training at all, ran a 10 flat 100 yards... oh, and was one of the greatest AMERICAN FOOTBALL players in history as well as baseball exponents... That was a real fucking athlete.

And more protean to the discussion, Jeffries power in the ring was somewhat if not extremely overrated, whacking those old feeble middleweights into submission (finally)... I feel he would fail extraordinarily against the real heavyweight boxers of the epoch d'moderne.

[PH|LLA]

greatness is relative to one's era, with that era's strength being judged relative to the eras that closely preceded and followed it.

[Boilermaker]

5-10 drunk and in my sleep. I tried the high jump maybe 3 or 4 times and went 6-5 in a meet using the flop and a real heavy foam pit. (Though Vladimir Yashchenko went 7 foot 8 1/2 using the straddle technique so don't discount that.) Granted, I was not to the zoftig weight that I am now. However, I have dunked a basketball weighing an even 200 and scaling a towering 5 feet and 11 inches. And I ain't or weren't that special of an athlete. Jeffries' supposed accomplishments do not overly-impress me. Compare him to a real athlete of his own era like Jim Thorpe, who high jumped 6-6 with no training at all, ran a 10 flat 100 yards... oh, and was one of the greatest AMERICAN FOOTBALL players in history as well as baseball exponents... That was a real fucking athlete.

And more protean to the discussion, Jeffries power in the ring was somewhat if not extremely overrated, whacking those old feeble middleweights into submission (finally)... I feel he would fail extraordinarily against the real heavyweight boxers of the epoch d'moderne.

I am no expert in high jump. But isnt the flop totally different to the technique that Jeffries used?

Jim Thorpe sounds like a hell of a naturally gifted athlete. Might be a bit tough to compare Jeffries to (arguably) one of the greatest natural athletes ever.

In fairness though, i also have my doubts about the exaggeration of Jeffries athletics ability. I am sure that there is a report somewhere that has him losing a beach sprint race to Jim Corbett. IF so, is it not possible that Jim Corbett might be an underated athlete!