Top 5 most overrated boxers of All Time

[Pachilles]

1. Roberto Duran
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Sam Langford
4. Barney Ross
5. Ezzard Charles

who in your opinion, are the top 5 most overrated boxers of all time?

[turpinr]

1. dempsey
2. marciano
these are the only 2 that i think are vastly overrated

[WhataRock]

Reasons?

Charles and Ross are very often underrated.

Duran gets overrated by a section of his fans but he is quite simply in the top echelon of fighters alltime, which ever way you want to look at it. He should be rated high and talked about as one of the best ever.

Langford??? I mean shit. The guy is a consensus top 5 alltime. His record is crazy. Its really almost impossible to overrate him because he actually has an argument for GOAT. How more can you rate him then that?

[frankenfrank]

1. Roberto Duran
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Sam Langford
4. Barney Ross
5. Ezzard Charles

who in your opinion, are the top 5 most overrated boxers of all time?
1. Aaron Pryor
2. Alexis Arguello
3. Joe Louis
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Archie Moore




the question of 'overrated' depends on the rating place , so i regarded this forum.

[bodhi]

Most fighters are just overated by their fanboys, so there is no definite list.

[Boxed Ears]

Most fighters are just overated by their fanboys, so there is no definite list.

I like bodhi's answer for this. :deal

[Sweet Pea]

1. Roberto Duran
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Sam Langford
4. Barney Ross
5. Ezzard Charles

who in your opinion, are the top 5 most overrated boxers of all time?Reasons?

[Stevie G]

1. Roberto Duran
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Sam Langford
4. Barney Ross
5. Ezzard Charles

who in your opinion, are the top 5 most overrated boxers of all time?
Roberto Duran overrated ?? :huh Interesting.

[Ezzard]

the most overrated fighters are going to be those who are active because there is a vested interest (i.e. money) in promoting them.

[Holmes' Jab]

Jack Dempsey




Agree with this, but not your other choices.

[Jersey Joe]

1. Roberto Duran
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Sam Langford
4. Barney Ross
5. Ezzard Charles

who in your opinion, are the top 5 most overrated boxers of all time?

Dempsey arguably but IMO no one really rates him as a top 5 heavyweight anyway.

Duran and Charles are ridiculous inclusions in an "overrated" list.

[redrooster]

1. Joe Louis
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Archie Moore
4. Roberto Duran
5. Julio Cesar Chavez


the question of 'overrated' depends on the rating place , so i regarded this forum.

here on esb, the early triple crowners Fitzsimmons, Ross and Armstrong get alot of praise here

Ray leonard the most overrated I've ever seen but I know esbers like to jump on the bandwagon with so called experts or popular opinion to make themselves look knowledgable

Louis at least had some guns and a string of defenses

[Flea Man]

This new poster must be an alias.

Awful post, as are those choosing Louis, although I do agree that Dempsey is overrated by some.

Frankenfrank is the man who has O Neil Bell in his top 10 P4P to put his choices into perspective :lol:

[he grant]

bodhi has it right ...

[stevebhoy87]

This new poster must be an alias.

Awful post, as are those choosing Louis, although I do agree that Dempsey is overrated by some.

Frankenfrank is the man who has O Neil Bell in his top 10 P4P to put his choices into perspective :lol:

Not sure on that one, i think louis gets his dues pretty correctly in this forum but if we look at a lot of "general" publications on who the greatest fighter is of all time p4p i've seen him as high as 3 or 4 which is clearly overrating him in my opinion

[Popkins]

What possible reason is there to think Ezzard Charles is overrated? I'd like the TS to explain himself. I can't work that one out at all.

[Dubhthaigh]

Ali!
neither Lewis, Tyson, Viatali or even Haye would have been in any danger of loosing to Frazier

[stevebhoy87]

What possible reason is there to think Ezzard Charles is overrated? I'd like the TS to explain himself. I can't work that one out at all.

There is no reason, in the general mainstream boxing public charles is the most underrated fighter ever in my opinion, never mind being overrated

[Pachilles]

Sorry guys, i guess you could call this a troll post. The thing is i've been reading this forum for about a year now with intentions of gaining knowledge on past fighters i wasn't alive to witness the careers of. Time and time again i see these particular fighters praised and compared with fighters post-WWII who seem to get crapped on by many classic forum posters. I was baiting with this thread and i apologise, i just wanted to see your reaction and it was more respectable than i'd imagined.

Now, in my humble, opinion of limited knowledge, i will explain why i believe these fighters to be overrated. My opinions are based on articles that have been linked from here as well as (in some cases) limited fight and training footage i've seen of these fighters.

1. Roberto Duran - Looking at his numerically impressive record i can see why he might be so highly rated, however his notable wins were against Palomino and Cuevas, who were both beyond their primes and on their way out. This type of negativity is applied to (in some cases) all the big named wins of more recent fighters, but Duran seems to be immune to it. His other defining wins? He went 2-1 with De Jesus, won a SD against Barkley and ofcourse the exceptional victory over SRL. Every other career defining fight he lost...SRLx2(he even QUIT in a sorry fashion, which would be unforgiving for any other fighter, with Duran however the excuses hold strong), Hagler, Hearns, Benitez, (the followng are excusable but still big fights - Paz, Joppy, Camacho). In my opinion what it boils down to is his one victory over the universally bagged hated more than FMJ, SRL. And his tysonesque personna(minus the black skin and hood talk) which makes people hold him in such a high regard.

2,3,4. Dempsey, Langford, Ross. Even if you dig deep there is so little credible evidence to go on, unless you are all 100 years old and completely unbiased with these fighters you grew up watching. From what film there is, they do not appear to be on the level of any heavyweight superstar from 1940 onwards. Its the shoddy film that makes them appear poor? SRR looks great on film, Pep does, Moore does, Armstrong does, Patterson does. Yes you could say their records are what makes them great, but can you seriously say that Dempsey would stand half a chance of beating Louis, Ali, Holmes, Lennox, Holyfield?? And Calzaghe has a great record, FMJ does too, but you will pick their records apart all day...these ancient fighters only ever fought prime top contenders? only lost past their prime? Sam Langford for christ sake! theres like six pieces of footage! how can you possibly know his opponents were top notch? 300+ fights is great(although he either lost or drew a third of them) but how can you even rank him so high on merely hearsay??

I've been reading your threads for a year now. I beliee this forum to be vastly more educated than the general forum, but also vastly more biased, due to a mix of nostalgia and elitism. I'm just saying.

[elmaldito]

1) oscar de la hoya

2) lennox lewis

[Sweet Pea]

Are you confusing Barney Ross with someone else, perhaps?

[Boxed Ears]

Are you confusing Barney Ross with someone else, perhaps?

He might even be confusing four or five of his top five with someone else.

[Mantequilla]

Ah, the old mix of nostalgia and elitisisisitism.

Can't beat it.Hopefully we can get away from it with you here to educate us now.

[nahkis]

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Lennox Lewis
5. Lennox Lewis

The only top 5 list he really deserves a spot in.

[anarci]

Dempsey arguably but IMO no one really rates him as a top 5 heavyweight anyway.

Duran and Charles are ridiculous inclusions in an "overrated" list.:deal THis is exactly what i was going to say.

[anarci]

1) oscar de la hoya

2) lennox lewis:nono if anything Oscar is underrated, But i do agree with Lennox Lewis:yep Who is probably the most overrated fighter of this generation.

[Sweet Pea]

I have to go for Ali as the most overrated.

reason: He won a lot of fights on his name alone, and the way he stole decisions was unheard of.
He spoiled, he grabbed, he hold, he ran and no ref did anything about it.
Look at the 3 Norton fights... 2 robberies and in one case the public almost destroyed the venue after they heard the decision.
The 3 Frazier fights, he lost 2 imo. And there were quite a few other fights that were close (gone either way) or the guys were robbed.

I don't say he wasn't good, but he isn't the GOAT by a long shot.Did you really already make an entirely new account in the space of a few hours?

[mckay_89]

Fighters I feel are overrated historically:

Jack Dempsey
Aaron Pryor
Julio Cesar Chavez

All 3 were very good fighters, but in my opinion don't deserve as much universal praise as they get.

[The Morlocks]

Ali!
neither Lewis, Tyson, Viatali or even Haye would have been in any danger of loosing to Frazier
A lot of you guys are just frickin' morons. I would love to bet on fights w/ you though.:hey

[TheGreatA]

I tend to agree with Dempsey, but Ezzard Charles, Sam Langford and Barney Ross? And you say there's not enough film of Charles and Ross? There's plenty of both.

Not impressive?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[PetethePrince]

I have to go for Ali as the most overrated.

reason: He won a lot of fights on his name alone, and the way he stole decisions was unheard of.
He spoiled, he grabbed, he hold, he ran and no ref did anything about it.
Look at the 3 Norton fights... 2 robberies and in one case the public almost destroyed the venue after they heard the decision.
The 3 Frazier fights, he lost 2 imo. And there were quite a few other fights that were close (gone either way) or the guys were robbed.

I don't say he wasn't good, but he isn't the GOAT by a long shot.

Say goodbye to your credibility. :hi:

[anarci]

Fighters I feel are overrated historically:

Jack Dempsey
Aaron Pryor
Julio Cesar Chavez

All 3 were very good fighters, but in my opinion don't deserve as much universal praise as they get. :nono I got Chavez 10th on my Atg list and he should be in everyones top 20, anything lower is a disrespect to a Great fighter!

[frankenfrank]

Say goodbye to your credibility. :hi:
you are very credible yourself picking joe louis to be the favorite to win against vitali klitschko and while nonetheless doing so by stoppage.
:hi:

[TheGreatA]

:nono I got Chavez 10th on my Atg list and he should be in everyones top 20, anything lower is a disrespect to a Great fighter!

You're making a good case on Chavez being overrated.

[anarci]

Well im actually pretty tired of stating my reasons to why he should be rated so highly, Every time ive posted his resume as compared to others,everyone who has an argument ends up being a pretty weak one. He is definitly not overrated by Mexican and Mex/american fans. Although im sure many would say that they are being bias,but its not anymore bias than american fans overrating American fighters.

[Minotauro]

1. Roberto Duran
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Sam Langford
4. Barney Ross
5. Ezzard Charles

who in your opinion, are the top 5 most overrated boxers of all time?

Charles and Langford arguably have the two best resumes in boxing history. And Ross is often underrated.

[frankenfrank]

:nono I got Chavez 10th on my Atg list and he should be in everyones top 20, anything lower is a disrespect to a Great fighter!
langford
marciano
duran
leonard
robinson
armstrong
toney
tyson


not necessarily in this order.
also mccallum , holyfield ,ali , louis , young peter jackson , joe walcott , charles and jones must be above him.
also pacquiao , julian jackson , monzon and hagler may really be reagrded above chavez.
maybe even fitzsimmons. and (jersey) walcott and moore.
i'd definitely put tua above chavez.
and probably mccall and spinks too.

how many names till here ? and except of tua and mccall other posters here may add more names to the 'above chavez' list.
and i may just forgot some.
no , jcc not a top10 ATG.
he was beaten and given fits too many times in his weight.

[Addie]

Roy Jones Jr

Was his reign at 175lbs anything but average? The majority of his challengers were B levels who would go on achieve absolutely nothing outside of getting in the ring with Jones. Even worse is that this supernatural, superman couldn't even get a lot of them out of there because he was to busy making fighters who had no business sharing the ring with him look bad. His Heavyweight triumph is outdone by a better Light Heavyweight in Michael Spinks, who should be remembered as the greater fighter, in my estimation. Hopkins was a far cry from the fighter he'd develop into, whereas Jones was a world class fighter fresh out of the Olympics.

Ricardo Lopez.

This ain't a dig at you Anarci, but there's quite a few posters who have him higher than Barrera and Morales whilst keeping a straight face. Barrera was decimating, destroying similar level opposition to Lopez's competition as he was dominating at 122lbs, where he made 8 defenses in the space of just over a year. Lopez had ample time to move up a division and test himself against great opposition but he made the conscious decision not too. For that he is remembered as a great talent, the greatest Minimumweight of all time, but not a top 90/100 fighter.

Juan Manuel Marquez

Again, I love Marquez. I think he was every bit as talented as a lot of people allude too, but he is an underachiever. You look at his record and his 3 divisional champion. But then you look at who he's beaten, and fighting top opposition was well overdue from his point of view. He didn't fight a world class fighter till 2003, and he still hasn't gotten that all elusive career defining victory, despite the Pacquiao controversy. I had faith he'll get another big triumph before he retires, but he lacks in resume, which is an area his Mexican peers shine.

Carlos Zarate

Another fighter I respect a lot, and I love to watch him fight. Carlos dominated a good, but not great, Bantamweight division. He had skills, a lot of power, but his resume, longevity, and ability to bounce back does not stack up to certain fighters who a lot of people, a lot of respected posters, list higher than him on a top 100.

[TheGreatA]

Well im actually pretty tired of stating my reasons to why he should be rated so highly, Every time ive posted his resume as compared to others,everyone who has an argument ends up being a pretty weak one. He is definitly not overrated by Mexican and Mex/american fans. Although im sure many would say that they are being bias,but its not anymore bias than american fans overrating American fighters.

Saying "anything lower than top 20 is an insult" is overrating him. Among the top 10 or 20 best that you've seen? I wouldn't argue against that, Chavez was a great fighter for sure.

It's difficult to comprehend just how many great boxers there have been over the years which is why people often throw out definite statements like "Roy Jones should be in everyone's top 10", "Hopkins is without a doubt a top 3 MW" and so on. There are surely 20 fighters and more that you could reasonably rate above Chavez.

[TheGreatA]

langford
marciano
duran
leonard
robinson
armstrong
toney
tyson


not necessarily in this order.
also mccallum , holyfield ,ali , louis , young peter jackson , joe walcott , charles and jones must be above him.
also pacquiao , julian jackson , monzon and hagler may really be reagrded above chavez.
maybe even fitzsimmons. and (jersey) walcott and moore.
i'd definitely put tua above chavez.
and probably mccall and spinks too.

how many names till here ? and except of tua and mccall other posters here may add more names to the 'above chavez' list.
and i may just forgot some.
no , jcc not a top10 ATG.
he was beaten and given fits too many times in his weight.

:patsch

Are you by any chance related to David Tua or Oliver McCall?

[Lunny]

People always claiming Lewis is overrated really bugs me. I can't see justification for it. He beat a lot of very good opposition, every man he ever faced. As far as I can see he has a very good argument to be a top 5 Heavy.

People often count his 2 losses against him too much, even though he avenged them and many of their top fighters had much more worrying losses on their records.

The people who don't rate Lewis highly often have Tyson right up there. A man who's legendary prime ended when he was just 24! A man who lost to the best fighters he faced, except for a past it Holmes.


It makes me wonder, would people keep saying Lewis was overrated if he had a bigger personality or was American?

[anarci]

langford
marciano
duran
leonard
robinson
armstrong
toney
tyson


not necessarily in this order.
also mccallum , holyfield ,ali , louis , young peter jackson , joe walcott , charles and jones must be above him.
also pacquiao , julian jackson , monzon and hagler may really be reagrded above chavez.
maybe even fitzsimmons. and (jersey) walcott and moore.
i'd definitely put tua above chavez.
and probably mccall and spinks too.

how many names till here ? and except of tua and mccall other posters here may add more names to the 'above chavez' list.
and i may just forgot some.
no , jcc not a top10 ATG.
he was beaten and given fits too many times in his weight.:rofl:rofl:patsch:patsch Ive thought of putting you on my ignore list, but when it comes down to it you are a pretty hilarious poster at times:lol:

[mcvey]

here on esb, the early triple crowners Fitzsimmons, Ross and Armstrong get alot of praise here

Ray leonard the most overrated I've ever seen but I know esbers like to jump on the bandwagon with so called experts or popular opinion to make themselves look knowledgable

Louis at least had some guns and a string of defenses

Most overated? Terry [Dresden] Norris :good

[frankenfrank]

:patsch

Are you by any chance related to David Tua or Oliver McCall?
i know you and the majority here would disagree about him , so , instead of arguing with you i will say count the names without them.
both were never stopped , both had respectable stoppage wins against top opposition .

[anarci]

Saying "anything lower than top 20 is an insult" is overrating him. Among the top 10 or 20 best that you've seen? I wouldn't argue against that, Chavez was a great fighter for sure.

It's difficult to comprehend just how many great boxers there have been over the years which is why people often throw out definite statements like "Roy Jones should be in everyone's top 10", "Hopkins is without a doubt a top 3 MW" and so on. There are surely 20 fighters and more that you could reasonably rate above Chavez. :nono No i have seen most fighters that there are footage on believe this im not a newbie to boxing and I am very well aware of how many greats there have been throughout the years. I dont believe that Jones is top 10 all time maybe Hth at Sm and M but he is probably between 15-20 on my All time list. I think Hopkins is a top 5 Mw and you can even make an argument for top 3 mw. I have a lot of respect for the old timers have seen footage or full fights on most of them and They built great resumes. However as ive stated many times on here many on this forum tend to underrate the Modern day fighters. Dont get me wrong im not overrating modern day fighters like the Posters on the General forum do but im not underrating them either like many on the classic do.

[TheGreatA]

:nono No i have seen most fighters that there are footage on believe this im not a newbie to boxing and I am very well aware of how many greats there have been throughout the years. I dont believe that Jones is top 10 all time maybe Hth at Sm and M but he is probably between 15-20 on my All time list. I think Hopkins is a top 5 Mw and you can even make an argument for top 3 mw. I have a lot of respect for the old timers have seen footage or full fights on most of them and They built great resumes. However as ive stated many times on here many on this forum tend to underrate the Modern day fighters. Dont get me wrong im not overrating modern day fighters like the Posters on the General forum do but im not underrating them either like many on the classic do.

I do think you may be a bit more familiar with the fighters of your own time which is why you rate them higher. It's only natural but surely if you had followed the careers of Barney Ross, Jimmy McLarnin, Tony Canzoneri, etc. and only read and watched a couple of films of modern fighters you'd probably have them above Chavez, Lopez, Jones, Hopkins in the all-time lists.

Basically what I'm saying is that if one is truly neutral about all the boxers in history and rates them on even terms then there's no way they'd ever say that it's an "insult" not to rate a fighter, even a great fighter like Chavez, among the top 20 best of all time. It's a huge compliment to be rated inside the top 20-30 or even top 50-100, that's how many great fighters there have been.

[anarci]

Roy Jones Jr

Was his reign at 175lbs anything but average? The majority of his challengers were B levels who would go on achieve absolutely nothing outside of getting in the ring with Jones. Even worse is that this supernatural, superman couldn't even get a lot of them out of there because he was to busy making fighters who had no business sharing the ring with him look bad. His Heavyweight triumph is outdone by a better Light Heavyweight in Michael Spinks, who should be remembered as the greater fighter, in my estimation. Hopkins was a far cry from the fighter he'd develop into, whereas Jones was a world class fighter fresh out of the Olympics.

Ricardo Lopez.

This ain't a dig at you Anarci, but there's quite a few posters who have him higher than Barrera and Morales whilst keeping a straight face. Barrera was decimating, destroying similar level opposition to Lopez's competition as he was dominating at 122lbs, where he made 8 defenses in the space of just over a year. Lopez had ample time to move up a division and test himself against great opposition but he made the conscious decision not too. For that he is remembered as a great talent, the greatest Minimumweight of all time, but not a top 90/100 fighter.

Juan Manuel Marquez

Again, I love Marquez. I think he was every bit as talented as a lot of people allude too, but he is an underachiever. You look at his record and his 3 divisional champion. But then you look at who he's beaten, and fighting top opposition was well overdue from his point of view. He didn't fight a world class fighter till 2003, and he still hasn't gotten that all elusive career defining victory, despite the Pacquiao controversy. I had faith he'll get another big triumph before he retires, but he lacks in resume, which is an area his Mexican peers shine.

Carlos Zarate

Another fighter I respect a lot, and I love to watch him fight. Carlos dominated a good, but not great, Bantamweight division. He had skills, a lot of power, but his resume, longevity, and ability to bounce back does not stack up to certain fighters who a lot of people, a lot of respected posters, list higher than him on a top 100.
Well you know my stand on Lopez so we wont open that can of worms again:lol::lol: You stated that he never fought a world class fighter until 2003:huh:huh Thats were you are wrong he fough a good champ in Freddie Norwood back in the late 90s and that fight could have gone either way.Other former world champs he beat before that time Daniel Jiminez,Julio Gervacio,Agapito Sanchez,Julio Gamboa and Robbie Peden was a legit contender when Marquez beat him. Hes had many good wins after 2003 also,and regardless of what the judges tell you has proved to be at least Pacs equal when they fought eachother. Hardly overrated in my opinion.
Zarates competition was also better than you mentioned i thought the division was pretty strong when he fought there,although im one who agrees with you that he is not top 4 or 5 all time mexicans fighters like many list him at. I do have him at #4 all time bantam though.
I dont rate Jones as high as many others but i do think that jumping from Middle to heavy and winning titles is a great accomplishment and overlooked by some. I probably have him between 15-20 on my all time list.

[Addie]

You stated that he never fought a world class fighter until 2003:huh:huh Thats were you are wrong he fough a good champ in Freddie Norwood back in the late 90s and that fight could have gone either way.Other former world champs he beat before that time Daniel Jiminez,Julio Gervacio,Agapito Sanchez,Julio Gamboa and Robbie Peden was a legit contender when Marquez beat him.

My exact quote, Anarci, was that Marquez didn't fight a 'world class fighter" till 2003. Freddie Norwood wasn't world class, and neither was any of the other guys you mentioned. Barrera had already done a paint job on Jiminez, and trust me, he did not look like a world beater in there with Marco. He was a paper champion. Peden is B level, not a world class fighter and never was. I wasn't wrong, he fought decnent fighters prior to fighting Manny, but no world class fighters. Barrera and Morales started fighting at elite level, way before.


I dont rate Jones as high as many others but i do think that jumping from Middle to heavy and winning titles is a great accomplishment and overlooked by some. I probably have him between 15-20 on my all time list.


Well then you're guilty of overrating the man, aren't you?

[anarci]

I do think you may be a bit more familiar with the fighters of your own time which is why you rate them higher. It's only natural but surely if you had followed the careers of Barney Ross, Jimmy McLarnin, Tony Canzoneri, etc. and only read and watched a couple of films of modern fighters you'd probably have them above Chavez, Lopez, Jones, Hopkins in the all-time lists.

Basically what I'm saying is that if one is truly neutral about all the boxers in history and rates them on even terms then there's no way they'd ever say that it's an "insult" not to rate a fighter, even a great fighter like Chavez, among the top 20 best of all time. It's a huge compliment to be rated inside the top 20-30 or even top 50-100, that's how many great fighters there have been.
Well what makes you think i dont rank those guys high:huh All of those old timers are no lower than 35 and id put Ross in around the lower teens. Check this out Great A , i havent just been watching boxing for over 30 years ive read up on it a whoooooooole lot too. Im familiar with all those old timers.
In fact believe it or not I had the honor of meeting Jimmy Mclarnin many times as he was on the board of directors for the WBHOF, a banquet i use to go to every year and also going to the VIP parties in the suites after the banquets, i know a few people in the buisness and board of directors that use to hook me up, in fact last time i attended Mando Muniz gave me a couple VIP tickets for me and my pops.
Jimmy Mcclarnin looked great well into his 90s and still socialized well into the night with everyone there:lol: When i first met him i couldnt believe that he was still alive, especially he looked at least 15 years younger than his true age. He since has passed on, I will definitly be at WBHOF banquet this year. One of my favorites old timers who is a regular at those banquets and parties is Carmen Basillio a real charachter:lol:

[anarci]

My exact quote, Anarci, was that Marquez didn't fight a 'world class fighter" till 2003. Freddie Norwood wasn't world class, and neither was any of the other guys you mentioned. Barrera had already done a paint job on Jiminez, and trust me, he did not look like a world beater in there with Marco. He was a paper champion. Peden is B level, not a world class fighter and never was. I wasn't wrong, he fought decnent fighters prior to fighting Manny, but no world class fighters. Barrera and Morales started fighting at elite level, way before.




Well then you're guilty of overrating the man, aren't you?im not sure if im overrating him just placing him about right there are some who have him higher than me.

As for being world class I think your opinion on who is and isnt world class is kind of off a little bit. How can Freddie Norwood not be world class? When Marquez fought Norwood he was thought of as one of the 2or 3 best feathers in the world, at a time when that was a tough division. In fact at the time I gave Lil Hagler more than a decent shot at taking Naz. A world class fighter is anyone who can be competetive with the best the division has to offer. I definitly though Agapito Sanchez was world class too he was giving Pac fits and had some good wins thought he had some good skills. Julio Gervacio was a very good fighter at one time, you just werent a fan at the time to remember when he whipped another very good fighter like Louie Espinoza and a couple other guys.

Also forgot to mention Manuel Medina and Victor Polo guys who were both pretty damn good fighters and Marquez dominated them.

[redrooster]

Most overated? Terry [Dresden] Norris :good

Norris kicks ass and we have the film to prove it. In fact, he kicked your boy's ass pretty convincingly.

[redrooster]

Roy Jones is definitely top ten material. Even Powerpuncher would attest to this and to not admit it is to bring shame upon yourself

You must be blind not to see it

[TommyV]

Ricardo Lopez - Very, very good fighter from a technical and offensive stand-point, and he had the tools to give many trouble. But didn't have the resumé to earn a top 40/50 place, and I think some people over-rate him further when they say he could of easily cleared up one or two divisions north of minimum weight.
Julio Cesar Chavez - Tough, tough fighter for anybody H2H at 130 & 135. I little more beatable at 140, and I think he loses to probably all the elite at 147. His resumé is stretched but lacking in real depth and in real quality wins for him to warrant a top 20 place, which is where I've often seen him ranked.

I'll add 3 more when I can think of them. Dempsey, Johnson etc are too obvious choices to include, and they've been mentioned so much that they perhaps aren't over-rated anymore.

[Addie]

Roy Jones is definitely top ten material. Even Powerpuncher would attest to this and to not admit it is to bring shame upon yourself

You must be blind not to see it

You have no credibility. Go away.

[TheGreatA]

Well what makes you think i dont rank those guys high:huh All of those old timers are no lower than 35 and id put Ross in around the lower teens. Check this out Great A , i havent just been watching boxing for over 30 years ive read up on it a whoooooooole lot too. Im familiar with all those old timers.
In fact believe it or not I had the honor of meeting Jimmy Mclarnin many times as he was on the board of directors for the WBHOF, a banquet i use to go to every year and also going to the VIP parties in the suites after the banquets, i know a few people in the buisness and board of directors that use to hook me up, in fact last time i attended Mando Muniz gave me a couple VIP tickets for me and my pops.
Jimmy Mcclarnin looked great well into his 90s and still socialized well into the night with everyone there:lol: When i first met him i couldnt believe that he was still alive, especially he looked at least 15 years younger than his true age. He since has passed on, I will definitly be at WBHOF banquet this year. One of my favorites old timers who is a regular at those banquets and parties is Carmen Basillio a real charachter:lol:

I don't doubt anyone's boxing knowledge here, you obviously possess a lot of knowledge, the point I'm trying to make is that there's no way not being rated in the top 20 by everyone can be regarded as an insult. Chavez, as great as he was, had fighters about as great as him competing in his own time. And boxing has been around for centuries. As I've said, there are surely 20 fighters that can reasonably, not insultingly or controversially, be rated above JC Chavez.

Great stuff about the IBHOF by the way. Unfortunately I live in Finland and can't really meet all these great fighters myself without making a trip to the United States.

Roy Jones is definitely top ten material. Even Powerpuncher would attest to this and to not admit it is to bring shame upon yourself

You must be blind not to see it

Even PowerPuncher? He is knowledgeable but I didn't know he has become some kind of an authority here. Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about. No one is "blind" or "insulting" if they don't agree with your view, they just don't agree with you, simple as that.

[redrooster]

You have no credibility. Go away.

you go away. all your posts suck!

[Addie]

you go away. all your posts suck!

As opposed to dedicating my life to talking about Ray Leonard? Your a sad, sad old man who probably lives in the basement of his mum's house with posters of Leonard all over your wall, with dart holes plastered over them.

Jones a top 10 fighter? ...Justify it, please.

[anarci]

I don't doubt anyone's boxing knowledge here, you obviously possess a lot of knowledge, the point I'm trying to make is that there's no way not being rated in the top 20 by everyone can be regarded as an insult. Chavez, as great as he was, had fighters about as great as him competing in his own time. And boxing has been around for centuries. As I've said, there are surely 20 fighters that can reasonably, not insultingly or controversially, be rated above JC Chavez.

Great stuff about the IBHOF by the way. Unfortunately I live in Finland and can't really meet all these great fighters myself without making a trip to the United States.
. Fair enough i just guess we have a difference of opinions there. However although i know boxing has been around for ages i dont include Fighters prior to the Quennsberry so in all reality were only going back around 115 to 120 years. Seems like most fans dont post guys going back further. Divide that by 20 and you have like can break it down to the best fighter every 6 years makes that list.:huh I know thats not the best way of doing that since diffrent eras have been tougher but i think you get my drift in my opinion Chavez definitly meets that criteria.
As for The IBHOF ive never been to that one as that ones on the other side of the Country in Canstoa,Ny which is about 3,000 miles from me,althought id like to go to that one since they have an actual musuem and headquarters
The one i go to is the WBHOF which is on the West Coast , every year the Banquets are in various locations around Los Angeles, unfortunatly the dont have an actual headquarter or Musuem. The Banquets are always Top notch Black Tie events with a whos who of Old time greats and Current top fighters. Havent been in a few years but will make it this year for sure. There is usually at least 1,000 to 1500 in attentance and it lasts about 4 hours if I remember correctly,although if you know people they have a Vip party that last well into the morning up in the luxury suites where its easier to rub shoulders with all the legends and current fighters. Lots of Women and booze too:lol: I cant tell you how many fighters and boxing personalities ive met throughout the years of attending those events, and all the fighters are more than happy to take pictures or sign autographs and memorabillia. Ive got a couple sets of gloves signed by more than 40 HOF legends.

[ricardoparker93]

I tend to agree with Dempsey, but Ezzard Charles, Sam Langford and Barney Ross? And you say there's not enough film of Charles and Ross? There's plenty of both.

Not impressive?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

That is some great footage thanks for sharing, I am always so impressed with Ezzard Charles when I see him on film, the guy has such great poise and skill. As for Sam Langford, I dont think you can overrate a guy who had wins over both Joe Gans and Harry Wills. Although people do seem to forget that he lost about ten fights to Wills as well.

I never see Wills getting rated on all time heavyweight lists despite his extremely impressive record and longevity.

[TheGreatA]

Fair enough i just guess we have a difference of opinions there. However although i know boxing has been around for ages i dont include Fighters prior to the Quennsberry so in all reality were only going back around 115 to 120 years. Seems like most fans dont post guys going back further. Divide that by 20 and you have like can break it down to the best fighter every 6 years makes that list.:huh I know thats not the best way of doing that since diffrent eras have been tougher but i think you get my drift in my opinion Chavez definitly meets that criteria.
As for The IBHOF ive never been to that one as that ones on the other side of the Country in Canstoa,Ny which is about 3,000 miles from me,althought id like to go to that one since they have an actual musuem and headquarters
The one i go to is the WBHOF which is on the West Coast , every year the Banquets are in various locations around Los Angeles, unfortunatly the dont have an actual headquarter or Musuem. The Banquets are always Top notch Black Tie events with a whos who of Old time greats and Current top fighters. Havent been in a few years but will make it this year for sure. There is usually at least 1,000 to 1500 in attentance and it lasts about 4 hours if I remember correctly,although if you know people they have a Vip party that last well into the morning up in the luxury suites where its easier to rub shoulders with all the legends and current fighters. Lots of Women and booze too:lol: I cant tell you how many fighters and boxing personalities ive met throughout the years of attending those events, and all the fighters are more than happy to take pictures or sign autographs and memorabillia. Ive got a couple sets of gloves signed by more than 40 HOF legends.

I agree most people do and probably should only rate fighters of the past 120 or so years because there are very little accounts of the pre-Queensbury era fighters but it's still a very long time when you think about it. Chavez has the likes of Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones, Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler to compete with not to mention all the fighters before them.

I meant to write WBHOF, my mistake. Sounds like a great event to visit.

That is some great footage thanks for sharing, I am always so impressed with Ezzard Charles when I see him on film, the guy has such great poise and skill. As for Sam Langford, I dont think you can overrate a guy who had wins over both Joe Gans and Harry Wills. Although people do seem to forget that he lost about ten fights to Wills as well.

I never see Wills getting rated on all time heavyweight lists despite his extremely impressive record and longevity.

Wills is definitely underrated and we can thank the circumstances of his time for that. He never got a title shot despite being the outstanding contender for about a decade. I view it as a great achievement that a much smaller man such as Sam Langford could ever beat him.

[PetethePrince]

you are very credible yourself picking joe louis to be the favorite to win against vitali klitschko and while nonetheless doing so by stoppage.
:hi:

You are right. I should have picked an earlier KO. At least I can admit my faults. :lol:

[redrooster]

As opposed to dedicating my life to talking about Ray Leonard? Your a sad, sad old man who probably lives in the basement of his mum's house with posters of Leonard all over your wall, with dart holes plastered over them.

Jones a top 10 fighter? ...Justify it, please.


I dont waste my time on people like you who bend over for media creations and have time on their hands to come up with a top 200 list

[mattdonnellon]

Funny eneough I think Wills is getting overated. Oh and Bob Foster...

[natonic]

David Tua
Terry Norris
James Toney
Oscar De La Hoya
Gerry Cooney

[anarci]

David Tua
Terry Norris
James Toney
Oscar De La Hoya
Gerry Cooney David Tua was a good shout out. Cooney,Delahoya are underrated. Toney is rated about right so is Norris most people know that he had great skills but a weak chin.

[natonic]

David Tua was a good shout out. Cooney,Delahoya are underrated. Toney is rated about right so is Norris most people know that he had great skills but a weak chin.

I actually felt like stopping at 3. I don't have a huge axe to grind with De La Hoya. I think he's a borderline great and fought with honor (whether I agree with some of the decisions or not). Cooney was coddled and definitely got his shot against Holmes because of skin color.

Toney was a good middleweight/Super Middleweight who was legitimately beaten by Dave Tiberi (I'm sure you're aware of this). I can't fathom Tiberi lasting more than 6 or 7 rounds at best with Monzon, Hagler or other greats. Toney beat a shot Holyfield and feasted on fat, slow, bigger fighters. He was way too inconsistent in my book. He also is a proven cheater. Overrated.

Norris had lots of skill. He also was a head case, lacked ring intelligence, and had a poor chin. It's difficult to find credible big wins on his resume. A case could be made that most of the big names on his record (Leonard, Mugabi, M. Taylor) were shot.

[mcvey]

Norris kicks ass and we have the film to prove it. In fact, he kicked your boy's ass pretty convincingly.

My boy?
My boy is 36 and into UFC ,around 218lbs ,he would eat Norris.
You have me confused with a fan boy like yourself.

[jeffradka]

Sorry guys, i guess you could call this a troll post. The thing is i've been reading this forum for about a year now with intentions of gaining knowledge on past fighters i wasn't alive to witness the careers of. Time and time again i see these particular fighters praised and compared with fighters post-WWII who seem to get crapped on by many classic forum posters. I was baiting with this thread and i apologise, i just wanted to see your reaction and it was more respectable than i'd imagined.

Now, in my humble, opinion of limited knowledge, i will explain why i believe these fighters to be overrated. My opinions are based on articles that have been linked from here as well as (in some cases) limited fight and training footage i've seen of these fighters.

1. Roberto Duran - Looking at his numerically impressive record i can see why he might be so highly rated, however his notable wins were against Palomino and Cuevas, who were both beyond their primes and on their way out. This type of negativity is applied to (in some cases) all the big named wins of more recent fighters, but Duran seems to be immune to it. His other defining wins? He went 2-1 with De Jesus, won a SD against Barkley and ofcourse the exceptional victory over SRL. Every other career defining fight he lost...SRLx2(he even QUIT in a sorry fashion, which would be unforgiving for any other fighter, with Duran however the excuses hold strong), Hagler, Hearns, Benitez, (the followng are excusable but still big fights - Paz, Joppy, Camacho). In my opinion what it boils down to is his one victory over the universally bagged hated more than FMJ, SRL. And his tysonesque personna(minus the black skin and hood talk) which makes people hold him in such a high regard.

2,3,4. Dempsey, Langford, Ross. Even if you dig deep there is so little credible evidence to go on, unless you are all 100 years old and completely unbiased with these fighters you grew up watching. From what film there is, they do not appear to be on the level of any heavyweight superstar from 1940 onwards. Its the shoddy film that makes them appear poor? SRR looks great on film, Pep does, Moore does, Armstrong does, Patterson does. Yes you could say their records are what makes them great, but can you seriously say that Dempsey would stand half a chance of beating Louis, Ali, Holmes, Lennox, Holyfield?? And Calzaghe has a great record, FMJ does too, but you will pick their records apart all day...these ancient fighters only ever fought prime top contenders? only lost past their prime? Sam Langford for christ sake! theres like six pieces of footage! how can you possibly know his opponents were top notch? 300+ fights is great(although he either lost or drew a third of them) but how can you even rank him so high on merely hearsay??

I've been reading your threads for a year now. I beliee this forum to be vastly more educated than the general forum, but also vastly more biased, due to a mix of nostalgia and elitism. I'm just saying.

I agree with his main point. Most of the classic posters in here are all bandwagon boys. They pick apart modern day fighters, but they put these old school fighters on a pedestal to seem knowledgeable. Even though as you say, there is a very limited amount of footage. Oh well, the internets full of dueche bags.

[mcvey]

I agree with his main point. Most of the classic posters in here are all bandwagon boys. They pick apart modern day fighters, but they put these old school fighters on a pedestal to seem knowledgeable. Even though as you say, there is a very limited amount of footage. Oh well, the internets full of dueche bags.

And people who cannot spell :good

TOUCHE! OR SHOULD THAT BE DOUCHE?

[TheGreatA]

I agree with his main point. Most of the classic posters in here are all bandwagon boys. They pick apart modern day fighters, but they put these old school fighters on a pedestal to seem knowledgeable. Even though as you say, there is a very limited amount of footage. Oh well, the internets full of dueche bags.

There is not a very limited amount of footage. The problem is that most people don't make the effort to acquire the footage, understandably so.

I do what I can to make this footage available so that people like you can see it and decide for yourself. But you shouldn't count out these great fighters just because you haven't seen them. That's ignorance.

[PhillyShell]

Joe Louis
Any four fighters before film

[Sweet Pea]

I agree with his main point. Most of the classic posters in here are all bandwagon boys. They pick apart modern day fighters, but they put these old school fighters on a pedestal to seem knowledgeable. Even though as you say, there is a very limited amount of footage. Oh well, the internets full of dueche bags.And ignorant fools.:good

[Boom_Boom]

Ricardo Lopez - Very, very good fighter from a technical and offensive stand-point, and he had the tools to give many trouble. But didn't have the resumé to earn a top 40/50 place, and I think some people over-rate him further when they say he could of easily cleared up one or two divisions north of minimum weight.
Julio Cesar Chavez - Tough, tough fighter for anybody H2H at 130 & 135. I little more beatable at 140, and I think he loses to probably all the elite at 147. His resumé is stretched but lacking in real depth and in real quality wins for him to warrant a top 20 place, which is where I've often seen him ranked.
I'll add 3 more when I can think of them. Dempsey, Johnson etc are too obvious choices to include, and they've been mentioned so much that they perhaps aren't over-rated anymore.


Those 4 will be on my list as well, for my 5th ill say Tyson.

[Boom_Boom]

Most overated? Terry [Dresden] Norris :good


Nooris is ridiculously underrated, no one even mentions him anymore let alone to say hes one of the most overrated.

[Sweet Pea]

Nooris is ridiculously underrated, no one even mentions him anymore let alone to say hes one of the most overrated.Maybe if you spent a bit more time on this forum you'd know what was meant by that remark. We have a little Norris/Camacho/Ayala trio that posts here and seem to think each of the fighters were untouchable. A lot of debate is sparked on their account. RedRooster would be the main culprit.

[redrooster]

Maybe if you spent a bit more time on this forum you'd know what was meant by that remark. We have a little Norris/Camacho/Ayala trio that posts here and seem to think each of the fighters were untouchable. A lot of debate is sparked on their account. RedRooster would be the main culprit.

yea, speaking of jokes, arent you the one who ranks SRL around #12 p4p? You and your sweat pea groupies

[Sayers]

A lot of them seem to come from the HW, which could be to do with them being the most watched fights by people who are not big boxing fans. Tyson, Dempsey, Tua and a possible one who has not been mentioned is Liston.

It is difficult talking about overrated fighters as I dont want to seem disrespectful and while some people overrate a certain fighter, other do the opposite so it depends whose ranking you are talking about.

That Charles K.O was ferocious :bbb

[redrooster]

Nooris is ridiculously underrated, no one even mentions him anymore let alone to say hes one of the most overrated.

Ignore sweet pea Boom_Boom. He's trash

I got TNT Norris way up high because of his ability to perform under presure situations along with his vast and boundless talents that enabled him to not beat but DOMINATE opponents like Mugabi, Leonard, Curry, Taylor, Brown. All prey to powers that know no equal

let's fact it, it was the SPEED that beat them all! And the way he was hitting the five time champion Sugarman Leonard? You ever see a man put leoanrd in his place lke that? That quickly? Not since Mustafa Hamsho put the fear of God in Bobby Czyz and Wilfred Benitez nine years earlier, had I seen a man been so intimidated

Camacho was great too, going the entire decade of the 80s without any losses and picking up three titles along the way

[redrooster]

My boy?
My boy is 36 and into UFC ,around 218lbs ,he would eat Norris.
You have me confused with a fan boy like yourself.

who gives a f** about UFC? I'm rather pay for some KFC

[redrooster]

Joe Louis
Any four fighters before film

Joe Louis is cool :good

[PhillyShell]

Joe Louis is cool :good
And incredibly overrated. And boring.

[redrooster]

And incredibly overrated. And boring.

what heavyweights did you like to watch? Tyson? Ali? Holmes?

[Sweet Pea]

And incredibly overrated. And boring.How was he overrated in your opinion?

[PhillyShell]

what heavyweights did you like to watch? Tyson? Ali? Holmes?
Everybody likes Ali, so that's kind of a given. I like James Toney. And Joe Frazier.

I'm assuming that you ask in order to undermine my credibility in saying that Louis is boring?

[PhillyShell]

How was he overrated in your opinion?
So you agree that he's boring? Awesome.

[Sweet Pea]

So you agree that he's boring? Awesome.I never agreed to anything, I was merely asking your opinion. If you dislike a fighter's style, that's on you, but to call him overrated despite what he achieved just because his style isn't to your preference doesn't really pan out. Regardless of whether or not you personally enjoy watching him, he was unquestionably one of the most dominant and effective fighters of all time. A 12 year reign with 25 title defenses is nothing to scoff at. I suppose you find Hopkins quite overrated as well?

[redrooster]

Everybody likes Ali, so that's kind of a given. I like James Toney. And Joe Frazier.

I'm assuming that you ask in order to undermine my credibility in saying that Louis is boring?

I agree he is overrated also and the esbers here (Sweet pea being the main culprit) heaps way too much praise on those boxers from the 1930s like he's some big know it all

No, I was just wondering which heavyweights you liked watching

my favorites are Larry Holmes and Riddick Bowe because of his kick ass style

[redrooster]

Everybody likes Ali, so that's kind of a given. I like James Toney. And Joe Frazier.

I'm assuming that you ask in order to undermine my credibility in saying that Louis is boring?

although I will say I wasnt bored by his style. You knew that whenever Joe Louis fought either he or his opponent or both were going to crash to the canvas

[redrooster]

by the way Philly, it is good to have a knowldgable poster like you who speaks his mind and gives his honest opinion. You could say I am the same way

Once i start posting, it sometimes gets quiet. everybody stays out of the way for a few hours

[TheGreatA]

Joe Louis was boring? That's a new one.

[PhillyShell]

I never agreed to anything, I was merely asking your opinion.

That's too bad, because agreement is just the best!


but to call him overrated despite what he achieved just because his style isn't to your preference doesn't really pan out.

That's why that wasn't what I did. I said he was overrated and boring. Not overrated because he was boring. Your mistake is understandable though, seeing as how the word "and" and the three word phrase "because he was" look so similar at a quick glance.


Regardless of whether or not you personally enjoy watching him

"you personally" is redundant. Unless you are using it as a rhetorical mechanism to emphasize the idea that my opinion of his style is just an eccentricity of taste and not a position that a reasonable person like you could hold.

But you probably don't put enough thought behind what you type to use cheap rhetorical tricks, do you?


he was unquestionably one of the most dominant and effective fighters of his time.

fixed


A 12 year reign with 25 title defenses is nothing to scoff at.

Which is why I didn't scoff at him.


I suppose you find Hopkins quite overrated as well?
Aww. You're trying to strawman me. That is just adorable.

[PhillyShell]

I agree he is overrated also and the esbers here (Sweet pea being the main culprit) heaps way too much praise on those boxers from the 1930s like he's some big know it all

Yeah, I'm starting to get that feeling.


No, I was just wondering which heavyweights you liked watching

Oh, I apologize for my assumption of hostility on your part.


by the way Philly, it is good to have a knowldgable poster like you who speaks his mind and gives his honest opinion. You could say I am the same way

Thank you for the compliment.

[PhillyShell]

Joe Louis was boring? That's a new one.
Well then in that case I'm wrong. Because whatever is new is by definition not as good, right?

[Drew101]

PhillyShell, may I inquire as to what fighters you do find captivating, and/or exciting?

[Sweet Pea]

That's why that wasn't what I did. I said he was overrated and boring. Not overrated because he was boring. Your mistake is understandable though, seeing as how the word "and" and the three word phrase "because he was" look so similar at a quick glance.
Fantastic. Now are you going to answer my question or continue to argue nothing but semantics?


"you personally" is redundant. Unless you are using it as a rhetorical mechanism to emphasize the idea that my opinion of his style is just an eccentricity of taste and not a position that a reasonable person like you could hold.

But you probably don't put enough thought behind what you type to use cheap rhetorical tricks, do you?
Yawn. See above.

Aww. You're trying to strawman me. That is just adorable.As is your act. All I ask is a very simple answer to a very simple question. I'm not trying to have a spat with you, which is obviously what you're aiming for with your unnecessarily condescending tone. You seem like an intelligent enough guy to provide back up to your point. That much is evident by your impeccable grammar. Unfortunately we're not in grammar school, we're on a boxing forum. Try to stay on topic. I wouldn't want to flunk you.:good

[PhillyShell]

PhillyShell, may I inquire as to what fighters you do find captivating, and/or exciting?
If you like.

Why? Do you plan to?

[Sweet Pea]

:lol:I've never seen his type before. At least he adds something new to the troll brigade.

[redrooster]

:lol:I've never seen his type before. At least he adds something new to the troll brigade.

What's wrong Sweet Pee, got your feelings hurt?

[Sweet Pea]

I predict a pointlessly drawn out, completely irrelevant, and of course grammatically correct post on PhillyShell's behalf in the near future.

[PhillyShell]

Fantastic. Now are you going to answer my question or continue to argue nothing but semantics?

Alright, two things.

First, the meaning of the word "semantics" is "the meaning, or an interpretation of meaning of a word or sentence". So to clearly have a discussion, adequately understanding the semantics of the argument is necessary. It's not some triviality that can be dismissed at your whim.

Second, either you purposefully misrepresented what I said or you misunderstood it, and that does matter. You were arguing against a position that I didn't hold (Joe Louis is overrated because he is boring). I pointed that out.


Yawn. See above.

Yeah, I can definitely understand how having what you say dismantled would make you yawn.


As is your act.

What act would that be?


All I ask is a very simple answer to a very simple question.

Actually, no, that's not what you did. That's what it would have made sense to do, but you apparently have far more creativity than to simply follow the convention of "making sense".


I'm not trying to have a spat with you,

I like how the next thing you say undermines this.


which is obviously what you're aiming for

So, to clarify: you don't want to have a spat with me, and the best way to achieve that goal is to accuse me of wanting to have a spat with you immediately after you say that?


with your unnecessarily condescending tone.

It is unfortunate that you find what I say condescending. I'm sure that with some introspection you will be able to overcome this.


You seem like an intelligent enough guy to provide back up to your point.

Thanks?


That much is evident by your impeccable grammar.

I don't think that my grammar is actually impeccable, and I'm not sure how adherence to grammatical convention equates to intelligence. My reasoning is impeccable though.


Unfortunately we're not in grammar school, we're on a boxing forum.

What was that you were saying earlier, about condescension? I can't remember too well, it was all such a blur of hypocrisy.


Try to stay on topic.

I have. I have also been thorough and pointed out when you make incorrect assumptions and use cheap rhetorical tricks. That combined with sarcasm and not agreeing with you seems to be upsetting to you.


I wouldn't want to flunk you.:good
Yeah, I'd hate that.

[PhillyShell]

What's wrong Sweet Pee, got your feelings hurt?
What do you think, red? A reply where he avoids what I say and again strawmans my position? Or do you think that he will move on to personal insults?

[Sweet Pea]

I predict a pointlessly drawn out, completely irrelevant, and of course grammatically correct post on PhillyShell's behalf in the near future.

*Ahem*

[anarci]

:patsch:lol::patsch:lol::-(:lol::-(:lol:

[PhillyShell]

*Ahem*
So you completely collapse when your ignorance and rhetorical gimmicks are pointed out?

It'd be sad if you weren't so lazily anti-intellectual.

[natonic]

What do you think, red? A reply where he avoids what I say and again strawmans my position? Or do you think that he will move on to personal insults?

Congratulations on ruining an otherwise interesting thread. But I do have to thank you for reminding me of one of my favorite movie scenes:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

You would be the Fuckstick with the pony tail who got owned. Let's see how many times you can use the term "strawman" in one thread. Cute. FYI, "strawman" was in 'Wizard of Oz". "Straw man" is the term you're clumsily trying to reference ad nauseum.

[Sweet Pea]

Philly, you seem upset. Perhaps some introspection is in order?:think

[Sweet Pea]

Congratulations on ruining an otherwise interesting thread. But I do have to thank you for reminding me of one of my favorite movie scenes:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

You would be the Fuckstick with the pony tail who got owned. Let's see how many times you can use the term "strawman" in one thread. Cute. FYI, "strawman" was in 'Wizard of Oz". "Straw man" is the term you're clumsily trying to reference ad nauseum.

:shock:You mean his grammar was off? Incomprehensible. I don't know what to believe in anymore. Great scene, by the way.

Hey Philly, do you like apples?

[PhillyShell]

Congratulations on ruining an otherwise interesting thread.

And how have I ruined it exactly?


But I do have to thank you for reminding me of one of my favorite movie scenes:

You like that movie?


You would be the Fuckstick with the pony tail who got owned.

Where did I get owned? Where I refuted accusations? Would that be the part? Or the part where pea said "ahem". Because I gotta admit, he had me on the ropes with that one. Nothing says ownage like laziness.


Let's see how many times you can use the term "strawman" in one thread.

As many times as I need to. Which I would hope would be zero, but that was unfortunately not the case.


Cute. FYI, "strawman" was in 'Wizard of Oz".

I thought they called him the scarecrow.


"Straw man" is the term you're clumsily trying to reference ad nauseum.
Clumsily? How exactly is that clumsy? I used it to refer to a textbook version of the fallacy. Perhaps you can clarify so that I will feel insulted as you intended.

[PhillyShell]

:shock:You mean his grammar was off? Incomprehensible. I don't know what to believe in anymore.

Let me get this straight: first you inaccurately mock me for having "impeccable" grammar and say that grammar doesn't matter here, then I say that I don't have impeccable grammar, then you mock me for not having impeccable grammar.

Do you understand how insults work? Because it seems like you don't. Mocking someone isn't just restating something they just said about themselves back to them.


Hey Philly, do you like apples?

If you're going to quote movies, why not quote a movie that isn't terrible?

[TheGreatA]

Well then in that case I'm wrong. Because whatever is new is by definition not as good, right?

You're assuming things, I never said it was wrong, just new.

By the way don't act so surprised if you're asked to explain yourself here after stating that a particular fighter is overrated and boring. After all it would be rather stagnant in this forum if no one had to actually explain their views. Threads filled with posts consisting of a single line don't make for very interesting viewing.

Then again you probably already knew this but would rather turn this into a silly exchange of big words.

[Sayers]

And how have I ruined it exactly?


It was a fairly interesting thread that would lead to interesting clashes of opinion but now it is just you talking about english language in a unnecessarily verbose way designed to make you look superior. :-(

[PhillyShell]

You're assuming things, I never said it was wrong, just new.

Yep.


By the way don't act so surprised if you're asked to explain yourself here after stating that a particular fighter is overrated and boring.

Ok. I don't have a problem with explaining myself. But that's not what happened.


After all it would be rather stagnant in this forum if no one had to actually explain their views. Threads filled with posts consisting of a single line don't make for very interesting viewing.

I agree completely.


Then again you probably already knew this but would rather turn this into a silly exchange of big words.
I'm sorry, what gives you that impression?

[Addie]

I dont waste my time on people like you who bend over for media creations and have time on their hands to come up with a top 200 list

Dude. Not only have I refrained from making a top 200, but I've never ever produced a top 100 or top 50.

....I'm very drunk too.

[Sweet Pea]

Let me get this straight: first you inaccurately mock me for having "impeccable" grammar and say that grammar doesn't matter here, then I say that I don't have impeccable grammar, then you mock me for not having impeccable grammar.Excellent detective work.

Do you understand how insults work? Because it seems like you don't. Mocking someone isn't just restating something they just said about themselves back to them.Actually, that isn't what happened. I stated it to natonic, not you. Let's not misinterpret.

If you're going to quote movies, why not quote a movie that isn't terrible?So terrible that you've seen it enough times to know the exact reference, despite the fact that it wasn't even in the video posted? I could've been asking a simple question for all you know. Let's not assume.

[TheGreatA]

I'm sorry, what gives you that impression?

Your last few posts in this thread.

[PhillyShell]

Excellent detective work.

Again, I really don't think you get how insults (or really language in general) works.


Actually, that isn't what happened. I stated it to natonic, not you. Let's not misinterpret.

Because misinterpreting is your schtick, right?


So terrible that you've seen it enough times to know the exact reference, despite the fact that it wasn't even in the video posted?

So you're saying that it can't be a terrible movie because I got the reference to it? Really? I mean, I understand that you're lazy and don't put any thought into what you type, but this is a new low.

[PhillyShell]

Your last few posts in this thread.
So you just feel personally uncomfortable when people use words that are beyond a certain length that you decide? Is that supposed to bother me?

[Sweet Pea]

Again, I really don't think you get how insults (or really language in general) works.The "works" in your sentence didn't actually need the "s". A firmer grasp of language in general would've taught you that.

Because misinterpreting is your schtick, right?No, because then you'd be a hypocrite, and we all know that's my schtick. Right?

So you're saying that it can't be a terrible movie because I got the reference to it? Really? I mean, I understand that you're lazy and don't put any thought into what you type, but this is a new low. I am indeed lazy, I'll give you that one. Better than being a quasi-intellectual blowhard, eh?

[PhillyShell]

The "works" in your sentence didn't actually need the "s". A firmer grasp of language in general would've taught you that.

You're right. That should be work. I made a mistake because of the parenthesis. However I will remind you for the second time that pointing out to someone who says they don't have "impeccable" grammar that they made a grammar mistake is not an insult.



No, because then you'd be a hypocrite, and we all know that's my schtick. Right?

Yes.


I am indeed lazy, I'll give you that one. Better than being a quasi-intellectual blowhard, though.
How am I a "quasi-intellectual"?

[Sweet Pea]

I'm not gonna lie guys, this was kind of fun at first, but I'm rapidly losing interest. I'll have to go ahead and call it a night. Just too damn lazy.

[TheGreatA]

So you just feel personally uncomfortable when people use words that are beyond a certain length that you decide? Is that supposed to bother me?

I feel "uncomfortable" when people unnecessarily decide to diverge from the subject of the thread and the forum for the purpose of rambling on and on about pointless matters while boring everyone else to sleep.

[mcvey]

by the way Philly, it is good to have a knowldgable poster like you who speaks his mind and gives his honest opinion. You could say I am the same way

Once i start posting, it sometimes gets quiet. everybody stays out of the way for a few hours
Perhaps they fall asleep.

[mcvey]

who gives a f** about UFC? I'm rather pay for some KFC

Junk food to go with your junk posts.

[mcvey]

Nooris is ridiculously underrated, no one even mentions him anymore let alone to say hes one of the most overrated.

Terry Norris will never be forgotten as long as his rectum kisser Red Rooster posts here.:good

[Drew101]

If you like.

Why? Do you plan to?

Just being done as a point of reference. If think Louis' style was boring that's your prerogative, of course, but it would be interesting to contrast it with fighters and fights that you do find captivating, just to get an indication of where you're coming from when you say this.

And yes, I'll be happy to provide you with my list, if you'd like.

[essexboy]

This is a good thread. Frankenfrank blatantly defending his alias was classic.

Ezzard Charles being overrated is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, especially when so many 'experts' ignore him when referring to great light-heavyweights.

[bodhi]

I agree with his main point. Most of the classic posters in here are all bandwagon boys. They pick apart modern day fighters, but they put these old school fighters on a pedestal to seem knowledgeable. Even though as you say, there is a very limited amount of footage. Oh well, the internets full of dueche bags.

There is plenty of footage and additionally to that many many newspaper articles and other published things about those guys. You just have to do some recherche to see the truth. But, yeah, I know working for your knowledge isn´t very common knowadays because there is wikipedia and google. Right?

[thesham01]

Christ, PhillyShell is one bitter man with a huge fucking chip on his shoulder

someone just tell him he's superior to the whole human race and lets get back to boxing....

[bodhi]

Christ, PhillyShell is one bitter man with a huge fucking chip on his shoulder

someone just tell him he's superior to the whole human race and lets get back to boxing....

What does this mean? Is this a saying?

[red cobra]

Ezzard Charles being deemed "overrated" is comical in it's absurdity and is general forum-worthy.

[red cobra]

What is Gene Tunney also considered "overrated"?

[johnmaff36]

People always claiming Lewis is overrated really bugs me. I can't see justification for it. He beat a lot of very good opposition, every man he ever faced. As far as I can see he has a very good argument to be a top 5 Heavy.

People often count his 2 losses against him too much, even though he avenged them and many of their top fighters had much more worrying losses on their records.

The people who don't rate Lewis highly often have Tyson right up there. A man who's legendary prime ended when he was just 24! A man who lost to the best fighters he faced, except for a past it Holmes.


It makes me wonder, would people keep saying Lewis was overrated if he had a bigger personality or was American?
100% right.

[johnmaff36]

What does this mean? Is this a saying?
It is a saying. its originates from way way back in the day when a person would walk about with a small block of wood on his shoulder challenging anyone to knock it off him. A guy with a bad attitude kinda thing

[thesham01]

hang on, could PhillyShell be one of the alt's of DINAMITA; their bitter argumentative style is certainly similar....

Although DINAMITA actually had boxing knowledge, so then again, maybe not.....

[kidargentine]

I don't find alot of ATG's overrated but Personally the 4 that come in my head are:

1) - Jack Dempsey: Very popular at his time, but will probably go down more as a famous celebrity than a p4p fighter. He held the title for a short period and make a couple of defenses against a couple of lackluster guys. That said, he does have some good victories against Gunboat Smith, Sharkey, and Carpentier, etc...but I don't see why alot of people actually put him higher on their all time lists over guys like Gene Tunney and Larry Holmes.

2) - Joe Calzaghe
3) - Rocky Marciano
4) - Ricardo Lopez

It's more easier to make a Underrated boxers list:

1) - Jimmy McLarnin
2) - Gene Tunney
3) - Joe Gans
4) - Kid Chocolate
5) - Vicenete Saldivar

[PowerPuncher]

All the pre-1930s fighters on this board, the skills/era werent very good

[bodhi]

All the pre-1930s fighters on this board, the skills/era werent very good

1. Mike Tyson
2. Roy Jones Jr.
3. Floyd Mayweather Jr.

:good

[thesham01]

All the pre-1930s fighters on this board, the skills/era werent very good

you judge fighters on how good they were in their era, and how much of an advance they made in terms of technique, style etc

Its like comparing Einstein and Newton; Einstein obviously knew more truth than Newton as he proved Newton wrong, but it doesn't make Newton an idiot, why?? because Newton made massive steps towards the truth....

and Einsteins greater truth was based on Newton, just like boxers technique today is based on older boxers techniques

yes the technique might have advanced (but it also has just adapted itself to get maximum benefit from the gloves etc in use in this era), but it does not make older boxers inferior.

[johnmaff36]

Ignore sweet pea Boom_Boom. He's trash

I got TNT Norris way up high because of his ability to perform under presure situations along with his vast and boundless talents that enabled him to not beat but DOMINATE opponents like Mugabi, Leonard, Curry, Taylor, Brown. All prey to powers that know no equal

let's fact it, it was the SPEED that beat them all! And the way he was hitting the five time champion Sugarman Leonard? You ever see a man put leoanrd in his place lke that? That quickly? Not since Mustafa Hamsho put the fear of God in Bobby Czyz and Wilfred Benitez nine years earlier, had I seen a man been so intimidated

Camacho was great too, going the entire decade of the 80s without any losses and picking up three titles along the way
With respect, and i aint shitting on anyone here, but SRL was finished when he fought Norris so i wouldnt go overboard about that particular win.

[essexboy]

you judge fighters on how good they were in their era, and how much of an advance they made in terms of technique, style etc

Its like comparing Einstein and Newton; Einstein obviously knew more truth than Newton as he proved Newton wrong, but it doesn't make Newton an idiot, why?? because Newton made massive steps towards the truth....

and Einsteins greater truth was based on Newton, just like boxers technique today is based on older boxers techniques

yes the technique might have advanced (but it also has just adapted itself to get maximum benefit from the gloves etc in use in this era), but it does not make older boxers inferior.

You've made the exact point I've made to him before, he wont listen.

[nastynas]

With respect, and i aint shitting on anyone here, but SRL was finished when he fought Norris so i wouldnt go overboard about that particular win.

It seems like youve just met redrooster. He hates Ray Leonard more than anything on earth...for godsakes, he once said that SRL lost to Camacho and Norris b/c he finally stepped up to a challenge.

My list:
-Jack Dempsey
-Marvin Hagler
-James Toney
-Khosai Galaxy
-Jimmy Wilde

[redrooster]

With respect, and i aint shitting on anyone here, but SRL was finished when he fought Norris so i wouldnt go overboard about that particular win.

but why dont the media say that going into the fight? Nobody was saying Ray was ready to fall! They say that after the fight and that dont count because they trying to stick up for him. But it dont convince the rest of us

In fact, Ray was the big favorite to win and that's why I dont buy this explanation. add to that I did not see any sign of weakness in the uno mas fight and therefore, this explanation in nothing more than myth.

Ray Leonard just couldnt hack it against faster fighters.

Since he lost big instead of winning the way he should have, I am even more adamant in my opinion of him which is very low

[redrooster]

It seems like youve just met redrooster. He hates Ray Leonard more than anything on earth...for godsakes, he once said that SRL lost to Camacho and Norris b/c he finally stepped up to a challenge.

My list:
-Jack Dempsey
-Marvin Hagler
-James Toney
-Khosai Galaxy
-Jimmy Wilde


with you, less must be more, right?

I'm just giving Ray his just doe as a fighter but if it makes you feel better calling me a hater to explain away his shortcomings, go ahead.

But you can count on me to come along later and set the record straight

[mcvey]

I don't find alot of ATG's overrated but Personally the 4 that come in my head are:

1) - Jack Dempsey: Very popular at his time, but will probably go down more as a famous celebrity than a p4p fighter. He held the title for a short period and make a couple of defenses against a couple of lackluster guys. That said, he does have some good victories against Gunboat Smith, Sharkey, and Carpentier, etc...but I don't see why alot of people actually put him higher on their all time lists over guys like Gene Tunney and Larry Holmes.

2) - Joe Calzaghe
3) - Rocky Marciano
4) - Ricardo Lopez

It's more easier to make a Underrated boxers list:

1) - Jimmy McLarnin
2) - Gene Tunney
3) - Joe Gans
4) - Kid Chocolate
5) - Vicenete Saldivar


Seven Years.:oops:

[Sweet Pea]

I'm surprised that douchebag PhillyShell hasn't responded to anyone's grammatical errors yet, considering he himself claimed his grammar was impeccable.

[mcvey]

That's too bad, because agreement is just the best!


That's why that wasn't what I did. I said he was overrated and boring. Not overrated because he was boring. Your mistake is understandable though, seeing as how the word "and" and the three word phrase "because he was" look so similar at a quick glance.


"you personally" is redundant. Unless you are using it as a rhetorical mechanism to emphasize the idea that my opinion of his style is just an eccentricity of taste and not a position that a reasonable person like you could hold.

But you probably don't put enough thought behind what you type to use cheap rhetorical tricks, do you?


fixed


Which is why I didn't scoff at him.


Aww. You're trying to strawman me. That is just adorable.
Congratulations,this is just about the smuggest post I have ever read.
I bet you would lick yourself, if your tongue was long enough :lol:

[mcvey]

All the pre-1930s fighters on this board, the skills/era werent very good

Gibbons
Loughran
Smith
Delaney
Slattery
Leonard
Terris

Mandell
Genaro
Brown
Tarleton
Rosenbloom
Flowers
Tendler
Mclarnin
Taylor
Rosenberg
LaBarba
Canzoneri
Levinsky
Mctigue
Latzo
Dundee
Goldstein
Miller
Berg
Shade
Corbett111
Callahan
Chocolate
Twenties fighters ,who according to you, had low level skills.
You embarrass yourself :oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops:





But what the hell, nothing new there. :good

[Gesta]

It seems like youve just met redrooster. He hates Ray Leonard more than anything on earth...for godsakes, he once said that SRL lost to Camacho and Norris b/c he finally stepped up to a challenge.

My list:
-Jack Dempsey
-Marvin Hagler
-James Toney
-Khosai Galaxy
-Jimmy Wilde

There is a bit of truth there. Styles make fights.


Halger overrated? Hagler cleaned out a good division and ruled it like a king for a while.

[redrooster]

There is a bit of truth there. Styles make fights.


Halger overrated? Hagler cleaned out a good division and ruled it like a king for a while.

too bad these esbers cant accept it when it comes to their favorite fighters; ala, Terry Norris-Ray leonard

[johnmaff36]

but why dont the media say that going into the fight? Nobody was saying Ray was ready to fall! They say that after the fight and that dont count because they trying to stick up for him. But it dont convince the rest of us

In fact, Ray was the big favorite to win and that's why I dont buy this explanation. add to that I did not see any sign of weakness in the uno mas fight and therefore, this explanation in nothing more than myth.

Ray Leonard just couldnt hack it against faster fighters.

Since he lost big instead of winning the way he should have, I am even more adamant in my opinion of him which is very low
Fair enough. Thats your take on things and your entitled to your opinion. Im pretty new to this and would be familiar with only a few posters so forgive me if i ask, are you not a Leonard fan? And if so, is it his style of fighting you dont like? Everyone likes or dislikes certain fighters but im intrigued as to why you dont like a guy that IMO is one of the best boxers i've ever seen. Also, may i ask you what you think the outcome would have been had it been the ray leonard of '81 fighting Norris. Purely hypothetical i know but interested to hear your thoughts

[redrooster]

Fair enough. Thats your take on things and your entitled to your opinion. Im pretty new to this and would be familiar with only a few posters so forgive me if i ask, are you not a Leonard fan? And if so, is it his style of fighting you dont like? Everyone likes or dislikes certain fighters but im intrigued as to why you dont like a guy that IMO is one of the best boxers i've ever seen. Also, may i ask you what you think the outcome would have been had it been the ray leonard of '81 fighting Norris. Purely hypothetical i know but interested to hear your thoughts

Well, I dont agree when people do their top whatever of all time and I see SRL near the top ten over people who did so much more than him. Recently they even did a poll with a comparison between Leonard and Gene Tunney and guess who they put on top?

it is absurd, Johnmaff! What is wrong with their f*cking minds? Maybe these peope dont get enough oxygen at birth

How you going to compare a guy like ray Leonard who dont give rematches, who picks his fights, who claims he cant fight but comes back at 30 avoiding all the better fighters while facing all the stiffs and relics, to a guy who go 4 fights with Greb and who whipped Dempsey twice?

he dont even fight Aaron pryor when Ap walked up to him and say "I would like to fight you"

he is hesitant. he was ALWAYS hesitant. he duck Pryor the way he ducked hagler, Nunn, and the others. I do not respect that!!

but as I was saying, there is NO comparison betwen Tunney and Ray leonard! So my gripe is why do they want to overrate him so much? is it his looks? Maybe his record a little thin and they want to embellish it. That must be it too becuz now they bring up the name Floyd Mayweather sr.


You see that? thats how desperate his fans are. they try sneaking in FLOYD MAYWEATHER as tho it is today's PBF. They want to see more name fighters on his record

SRL did too little in his career. he had a couple of big fights and people already putting him up with Ali and Robinson.

I wouldnt be so doubtful of that if he faced hagler in a more timely manner but he had to go pull that shit at Baltimore. and again his fans just put up with it

then his timing (1987 comeback) make me even more suspicious.

afterwards he says "I cant give Hagler a rematch" a week after the fight.

To me, he is just as hesitant as he 5 years before. But then he will go after lalonde who to me is not legit. He is raw, undeveloped and no way does he belong in a fight with SRL. And sure as hell not for TWO titles. It got farce written all over it. Now I really look down at him and the suspicions that he is a pampered royalty by the media is 100%.

Of that there is no doubt and people like him belong in the amateurs, not in the pros.

I knew the day was coming when he'd pick the wrong opponent and he'd end up hurt. But until that day came, I knew his fans were going to keep crowing how he was the greatest

so he made damn sure he stayed away from the Micheal Nunns of the world. Someone that was just as arrogant and irreverent towrds his opponent as himself. Ray Leonard didnt want that. that is, he didnt want to be on the wrong end

so as i was saying, I dont go along with ESB nuckleheads becuz Ray's career is lacking. He need at least another 15-20 fights and I dont see why he cant fit them in since he is young and so is his career. But he is hesitant

That word-hesitant is how I would describe him. and his fans put up with it too. not only do they put up with it, they defend him all the time so they just end up with egg on their faces especially when they start to say "sugar Ray was the 11th greatest fighter p4p"

that the kind of people we got here on esb, Johnmaff!!! people who go around like wannabe experts who go along with what they see somewhere in some mag becuz they want to look credible

The ONLY time he ever face a man with the kind of speed Nunn got was Terry Norris and becuz I predicted a one sided loss AGAINST what the sports writers all over were saying, I proved that I was right and they were wrong. Were they ever wrong. Their boy got himself hurt just Like i said back in 87

so just forget what all these other fools at esb say or like to say. Fuck 'em!!

My thoughts on Norris-prime Ray Leonard-same result. its going to be the same thing. The ignoramus ESB crowd like to take the easy way out and say Terry couldnt take it to the chin but notice who it was on the canvas. You see? They can't even get that right :yep

In fact, ray never had Terry in trouble one time :nono

Ray Leonard looks too long for openings. If he dont see what he dont like, he does nothing. You saw it in the hearns fight of 81

if the target moves just a little it throws him off. While Ray is staring eyes wide open, Terry will be pitching, pitching, pitching. This will set the tone for the whole fight. Terry can also hurt Ray and becuz of that, Ray will concede to his superiority in his mind

Ray simply dont have the right rhythm for Norris and I think that is why he stay away from the speedster type as long as he could

the only bright side to Ray is he had a good style if the match was fought at a slow pace (leonard-Benitez, Leonard-Green, etc).

His fights could sometimes be entertaining but was he the best of his day? hell no

[Mantequilla]

You've taken that too far.

[TheGreatA]

Pryor turned down an opportunity to fight Leonard.

[redrooster]

Pryor turned down an opportunity to fight Leonard.

because he was getting stiffed for 500 grand. Ray would probably end up getting the other $7,500,000

[TheGreatA]

because he was getting stiffed for 500 grand. Ray would probably end up getting the other $7,500,000

It would have still been his highest payday by far at that point. He made only 50,000$ against Cervantes. Pryor gambled however and ended up doing the right thing since he made millions against Arguello. But considering that Leonard offered him a fight for reasonable money, which Pryor turned down, and later called Pryor out after the Hearns fight, it's very difficult to make a legitimate case about Leonard ducking Pryor.

[johnmaff36]

Well, I dont agree when people do their top whatever of all time and I see SRL near the top ten over people who did so much more than him. Recently they even did a poll with a comparison between Leonard and Gene Tunney and guess who they put on top?

it is absurd, Johnmaff! What is wrong with their f*cking minds? Maybe these peope dont get enough oxygen at birth

How you going to compare a guy like ray Leonard who dont give rematches, who picks his fights, who claims he cant fight but comes back at 30 avoiding all the better fighters while facing all the stiffs and relics, to a guy who go 4 fights with Greb and who whipped Dempsey twice?

he dont even fight Aaron pryor when Ap walked up to him and say "I would like to fight you"

he is hesitant. he was ALWAYS hesitant. he duck Pryor the way he ducked hagler, Nunn, and the others. I do not respect that!!

but as I was saying, there is NO comparison betwen Tunney and Ray leonard! So my gripe is why do they want to overrate him so much? is it his looks? Maybe his record a little thin and they want to embellish it. That must be it too becuz now they bring up the name Floyd Mayweather sr.


You see that? thats how desperate his fans are. they try sneaking in FLOYD MAYWEATHER as tho it is today's PBF. They want to see more name fighters on his record

SRL did too little in his career. he had a couple of big fights and people already putting him up with Ali and Robinson.

I wouldnt be so doubtful of that if he faced hagler in a more timely manner but he had to go pull that shit at Baltimore. and again his fans just put up with it

then his timing (1987 comeback) make me even more suspicious.

afterwards he says "I cant give Hagler a rematch" a week after the fight.

To me, he is just as hesitant as he 5 years before. But then he will go after lalonde who to me is not legit. He is raw, undeveloped and no way does he belong in a fight with SRL. And sure as hell not for TWO titles. It got farce written all over it. Now I really look down at him and the suspicions that he is a pampered royalty by the media is 100%.

Of that there is no doubt and people like him belong in the amateurs, not in the pros.

I knew the day was coming when he'd pick the wrong opponent and he'd end up hurt. But until that day came, I knew his fans were going to keep crowing how he was the greatest

so he made damn sure he stayed away from the Micheal Nunns of the world. Someone that was just as arrogant and irreverent towrds his opponent as himself. Ray Leonard didnt want that. that is, he didnt want to be on the wrong end

so as i was saying, I dont go along with ESB nuckleheads becuz Ray's career is lacking. He need at least another 15-20 fights and I dont see why he cant fit them in since he is young and so is his career. But he is hesitant

That word-hesitant is how I would describe him. and his fans put up with it too. not only do they put up with it, they defend him all the time so they just end up with egg on their faces especially when they start to say "sugar Ray was the 11th greatest fighter p4p"

that the kind of people we got here on esb, Johnmaff!!! people who go around like wannabe experts who go along with what they see somewhere in some mag becuz they want to look credible

The ONLY time he ever face a man with the kind of speed Nunn got was Terry Norris and becuz I predicted a one sided loss AGAINST what the sports writers all over were saying, I proved that I was right and they were wrong. Were they ever wrong. Their boy got himself hurt just Like i said back in 87

so just forget what all these other fools at esb say or like to say. Fuck 'em!!

My thoughts on Norris-prime Ray Leonard-same result. its going to be the same thing. The ignoramus ESB crowd like to take the easy way out and say Terry couldnt take it to the chin but notice who it was on the canvas. You see? They can't even get that right :yep

In fact, ray never had Terry in trouble one time :nono

Ray Leonard looks too long for openings. If he dont see what he dont like, he does nothing. You saw it in the hearns fight of 81

if the target moves just a little it throws him off. While Ray is staring eyes wide open, Terry will be pitching, pitching, pitching. This will set the tone for the whole fight. Terry can also hurt Ray and becuz of that, Ray will concede to his superiority in his mind

Ray simply dont have the right rhythm for Norris and I think that is why he stay away from the speedster type as long as he could

the only bright side to Ray is he had a good style if the match was fought at a slow pace (leonard-Benitez, Leonard-Green, etc).

His fights could sometimes be entertaining but was he the best of his day? hell no
I take some of your points about pampered royalty and handpicking fights like lalonde but the other side of the coin could be interpreted as shrewd matchmaking. I am pretty sure for 99.99% of fighters,the name of the game is to get in,make your money, and get out with your health intact.But that isnt the issue here i suppose. With respect, you give me the impression that you just dont like leonard and thats ok. I personally cant have joe calzaghe and even if he came back and KO'd the Klitchkos i still dont think i could give him Kudos, but thats my problem.

I think your the same with Leonard and without wishing to disrespect your opinion, i think that its crazy to put SRL down as just another fighter who was sometimes entertaining. Again im no expert but i agree that Terry Norris isnt anywhere near as bad as hes painted but as far as whupping an '81 SRL (at the same weight obviously)is concerned, i couldnt disagree more. I could understand you if it was all joe publics singing his praises, guys who wouldnt know a left-hook from a fishing hook, but every single person ive ever spoken to,or read, or listen to, about SRL, are all unanimous in their conclusion that he was one of the best fighters they'd ever seen. All of them! Surely they cant all be wrong could they? But the game is all about opinions and if thats yours then i respect that. I dont agree with it but i respect it

[redrooster]

I take some of your points about pampered royalty and handpicking fights like lalonde but the other side of the coin could be interpreted as shrewd matchmaking. I am pretty sure for 99.99% of fighters,the name of the game is to get in,make your money, and get out with your health intact.But that isnt the issue here i suppose. With respect, you give me the impression that you just dont like leonard and thats ok. I personally cant have joe calzaghe and even if he came back and KO'd the Klitchkos i still dont think i could give him Kudos, but thats my problem.

I think your the same with Leonard and without wishing to disrespect your opinion, i think that its crazy to put SRL down as just another fighter who was sometimes entertaining. Again im no expert but i agree that Terry Norris isnt anywhere near as bad as hes painted but as far as whupping an '81 SRL (at the same weight obviously)is concerned, i couldnt disagree more. I could understand you if it was all joe publics singing his praises, guys who wouldnt know a left-hook from a fishing hook, but every single person ive ever spoken to,or read, or listen to, about SRL, are all unanimous in their conclusion that he was one of the best fighters they'd ever seen. All of them! Surely they cant all be wrong could they? But the game is all about opinions and if thats yours then i respect that. I dont agree with it but i respect it

thats funny because where I come from I hear just the opposite.

I dont believe in his excuse for a layoff

I dont give credit for being a smart businessman either. How does that benefit boxing fans? If he's making millions, he should be facing the top fighters, not the EX-top fighters

be honest, who'd want to see uno mas instead of Nunn-srl? or lalonde instead of Julian Jackson srl?

I saw a recent remark mentioned "imagine if Leonard and Jackson had fought" and the first thing that came to my mind was "why not?" both were fighting at the time and both champs. but somehow Leonard always seems to miss the kind of matchups us less fainthearted fans want to see.

and my view is obviously not based on hatred but rather comes out of concern demanding higher standards from our fighters

[BENNY BLANCO]

Well, I dont agree when people do their top whatever of all time and I see SRL near the top ten over people who did so much more than him. Recently they even did a poll with a comparison between Leonard and Gene Tunney and guess who they put on top?

it is absurd, Johnmaff! What is wrong with their f*cking minds? Maybe these peope dont get enough oxygen at birth

How you going to compare a guy like ray Leonard who dont give rematches, who picks his fights, who claims he cant fight but comes back at 30 avoiding all the better fighters while facing all the stiffs and relics, to a guy who go 4 fights with Greb and who whipped Dempsey twice?

he dont even fight Aaron pryor when Ap walked up to him and say "I would like to fight you"

he is hesitant. he was ALWAYS hesitant. he duck Pryor the way he ducked hagler, Nunn, and the others. I do not respect that!!

but as I was saying, there is NO comparison betwen Tunney and Ray leonard! So my gripe is why do they want to overrate him so much? is it his looks? Maybe his record a little thin and they want to embellish it. That must be it too becuz now they bring up the name Floyd Mayweather sr.


You see that? thats how desperate his fans are. they try sneaking in FLOYD MAYWEATHER as tho it is today's PBF. They want to see more name fighters on his record

SRL did too little in his career. he had a couple of big fights and people already putting him up with Ali and Robinson.

I wouldnt be so doubtful of that if he faced hagler in a more timely manner but he had to go pull that shit at Baltimore. and again his fans just put up with it

then his timing (1987 comeback) make me even more suspicious.

afterwards he says "I cant give Hagler a rematch" a week after the fight.

To me, he is just as hesitant as he 5 years before. But then he will go after lalonde who to me is not legit. He is raw, undeveloped and no way does he belong in a fight with SRL. And sure as hell not for TWO titles. It got farce written all over it. Now I really look down at him and the suspicions that he is a pampered royalty by the media is 100%.

Of that there is no doubt and people like him belong in the amateurs, not in the pros.

I knew the day was coming when he'd pick the wrong opponent and he'd end up hurt. But until that day came, I knew his fans were going to keep crowing how he was the greatest

so he made damn sure he stayed away from the Micheal Nunns of the world. Someone that was just as arrogant and irreverent towrds his opponent as himself. Ray Leonard didnt want that. that is, he didnt want to be on the wrong end

so as i was saying, I dont go along with ESB nuckleheads becuz Ray's career is lacking. He need at least another 15-20 fights and I dont see why he cant fit them in since he is young and so is his career. But he is hesitant

That word-hesitant is how I would describe him. and his fans put up with it too. not only do they put up with it, they defend him all the time so they just end up with egg on their faces especially when they start to say "sugar Ray was the 11th greatest fighter p4p"

that the kind of people we got here on esb, Johnmaff!!! people who go around like wannabe experts who go along with what they see somewhere in some mag becuz they want to look credible

The ONLY time he ever face a man with the kind of speed Nunn got was Terry Norris and becuz I predicted a one sided loss AGAINST what the sports writers all over were saying, I proved that I was right and they were wrong. Were they ever wrong. Their boy got himself hurt just Like i said back in 87

so just forget what all these other fools at esb say or like to say. Fuck 'em!!

My thoughts on Norris-prime Ray Leonard-same result. its going to be the same thing. The ignoramus ESB crowd like to take the easy way out and say Terry couldnt take it to the chin but notice who it was on the canvas. You see? They can't even get that right :yep

In fact, ray never had Terry in trouble one time :nono

Ray Leonard looks too long for openings. If he dont see what he dont like, he does nothing. You saw it in the hearns fight of 81

if the target moves just a little it throws him off. While Ray is staring eyes wide open, Terry will be pitching, pitching, pitching. This will set the tone for the whole fight. Terry can also hurt Ray and becuz of that, Ray will concede to his superiority in his mind

Ray simply dont have the right rhythm for Norris and I think that is why he stay away from the speedster type as long as he could

the only bright side to Ray is he had a good style if the match was fought at a slow pace (leonard-Benitez, Leonard-Green, etc).

His fights could sometimes be entertaining but was he the best of his day? hell no

Let me just say that this post right here is one of the best I have read in the ESB Classic section. I agree with everything you typed down wholeheartedly. RedRooster you the man!!!!!

[redrooster]

Let me just say that this post right here is one of the best I have read in the ESB Classic section. I agree with everything you typed down wholeheartedly. RedRooster you the man!!!!!

Thank you Benny. As you know, I speak from the heart so its nice to be appreciated for being honest

[duranimal]

Well, I dont agree when people do their top whatever of all time and I see SRL near the top ten over people who did so much more than him. Recently they even did a poll with a comparison between Leonard and Gene Tunney and guess who they put on top?

it is absurd, Johnmaff! What is wrong with their f*cking minds? Maybe these peope dont get enough oxygen at birth

How you going to compare a guy like ray Leonard who dont give rematches, who picks his fights, who claims he cant fight but comes back at 30 avoiding all the better fighters while facing all the stiffs and relics, to a guy who go 4 fights with Greb and who whipped Dempsey twice?

he dont even fight Aaron pryor when Ap walked up to him and say "I would like to fight you"

he is hesitant. he was ALWAYS hesitant. he duck Pryor the way he ducked hagler, Nunn, and the others. I do not respect that!!

but as I was saying, there is NO comparison betwen Tunney and Ray leonard! So my gripe is why do they want to overrate him so much? is it his looks? Maybe his record a little thin and they want to embellish it. That must be it too becuz now they bring up the name Floyd Mayweather sr.


You see that? thats how desperate his fans are. they try sneaking in FLOYD MAYWEATHER as tho it is today's PBF. They want to see more name fighters on his record

SRL did too little in his career. he had a couple of big fights and people already putting him up with Ali and Robinson.

I wouldnt be so doubtful of that if he faced hagler in a more timely manner but he had to go pull that shit at Baltimore. and again his fans just put up with it

then his timing (1987 comeback) make me even more suspicious.

afterwards he says "I cant give Hagler a rematch" a week after the fight.

To me, he is just as hesitant as he 5 years before. But then he will go after lalonde who to me is not legit. He is raw, undeveloped and no way does he belong in a fight with SRL. And sure as hell not for TWO titles. It got farce written all over it. Now I really look down at him and the suspicions that he is a pampered royalty by the media is 100%.

Of that there is no doubt and people like him belong in the amateurs, not in the pros.

I knew the day was coming when he'd pick the wrong opponent and he'd end up hurt. But until that day came, I knew his fans were going to keep crowing how he was the greatest

so he made damn sure he stayed away from the Micheal Nunns of the world. Someone that was just as arrogant and irreverent towrds his opponent as himself. Ray Leonard didnt want that. that is, he didnt want to be on the wrong end

so as i was saying, I dont go along with ESB nuckleheads becuz Ray's career is lacking. He need at least another 15-20 fights and I dont see why he cant fit them in since he is young and so is his career. But he is hesitant

That word-hesitant is how I would describe him. and his fans put up with it too. not only do they put up with it, they defend him all the time so they just end up with egg on their faces especially when they start to say "sugar Ray was the 11th greatest fighter p4p"

that the kind of people we got here on esb, Johnmaff!!! people who go around like wannabe experts who go along with what they see somewhere in some mag becuz they want to look credible

The ONLY time he ever face a man with the kind of speed Nunn got was Terry Norris and becuz I predicted a one sided loss AGAINST what the sports writers all over were saying, I proved that I was right and they were wrong. Were they ever wrong. Their boy got himself hurt just Like i said back in 87

so just forget what all these other fools at esb say or like to say. Fuck 'em!!

My thoughts on Norris-prime Ray Leonard-same result. its going to be the same thing. The ignoramus ESB crowd like to take the easy way out and say Terry couldnt take it to the chin but notice who it was on the canvas. You see? They can't even get that right :yep

In fact, ray never had Terry in trouble one time :nono

Ray Leonard looks too long for openings. If he dont see what he dont like, he does nothing. You saw it in the hearns fight of 81

if the target moves just a little it throws him off. While Ray is staring eyes wide open, Terry will be pitching, pitching, pitching. This will set the tone for the whole fight. Terry can also hurt Ray and becuz of that, Ray will concede to his superiority in his mind

Ray simply dont have the right rhythm for Norris and I think that is why he stay away from the speedster type as long as he could

the only bright side to Ray is he had a good style if the match was fought at a slow pace (leonard-Benitez, Leonard-Green, etc).

His fights could sometimes be entertaining but was he the best of his day? hell no

Great post ROOSTER:good& thats exactly how it was:deal

But don't expect 90% of the pigs afterbirths on here to understand:

1) 50% of them we'rnt around then to see/understand what Leonard was really all about & so had never read the press coverage of the time which the majority universally castigated him for his machavelian manipulation & dilution of the integity of boxing (Honorable mention to that cunt Jose Sulliaman WBC "El Presidente for life")

2) The rest of them are just the usual sheep/penguin hybrids that follow any media creation & now find themselves self-entrapped out of pure ignorence & blind embarrasment to the fact that they actually really know fuck-all about him:lol:

It's just like the cunts on the plane from England to Vegas i was on back in 89 going to the Leonard/Duran 3 fight when this Leonard mug bet me $1000 that Duran/Leonard had only fought ONCE as he'd never heard of MONTREAL + the fact he'd only been following Leonard since LaLonde just about sum's up 90% of all the Leonard fans i've ever encountered, there not mainsteam fight fans much as DLH's ar'nt, there fans of whoever is the posterboy of the day.

I was up & down that plane checking out Leonard fans like an SS guard doing the morning roll call at a death camp:smoke

[Jack Dempsey]

1. Roberto Duran
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Sam Langford
4. Barney Ross
5. Ezzard Charles

who in your opinion, are the top 5 most overrated boxers of all time?


Barney Ross and Ezzard Charles are not overrated:nono

[JohnThomas1]

because he was getting stiffed for 500 grand. Ray would probably end up getting the other $7,500,000

Oooooo am i reading right? Rooter admitting Pryor was offered the fight and turned it down? Did Pryor actually avoid Leonard then????

Don't forget to inform us Pryor had not even beat Arguello at this point in time and the fight wasn't worth near what it would have been after he did, but SRL was retired then of course.

What was Pryor worth in your eyes given he hadn't yet beat the Nicaraguan? What did he receive for his previous 3 or 4 fights?

I'd agree 1/2 mill was short but there's lots going on right there.

[thejokerswild]

*hates this thread*

[KOTF]

Pryor turned down an opportunity to fight Leonard.

His team turned down a $750K offer from Duran as well

[natonic]

Great post ROOSTER:good& thats exactly how it was:deal

But don't expect 90% of the pigs afterbirths on here to understand:

1) 50% of them we'rnt around then to see/understand what Leonard was really all about & so had never read the press coverage of the time which the majority universally castigated him for his machavelian manipulation & dilution of the integity of boxing (Honorable mention to that cunt Jose Sulliaman WBC "El Presidente for life")

2) The rest of them are just the usual sheep/penguin hybrids that follow any media creation & now find themselves self-entrapped out of pure ignorence & blind embarrasment to the fact that they actually really know fuck-all about him:lol:

It's just like the cunts on the plane from England to Vegas i was on back in 89 going to the Leonard/Duran 3 fight when this Leonard mug bet me $1000 that Duran/Leonard had only fought ONCE as he'd never heard of MONTREAL + the fact he'd only been following Leonard since LaLonde just about sum's up 90% of all the Leonard fans i've ever encountered, there not mainsteam fight fans much as DLH's ar'nt, there fans of whoever is the posterboy of the day.

I was up & down that plane checking out Leonard fans like an SS guard doing the morning roll call at a death camp:smoke

I'm reading 'Hands of Stone' right now. It's a great book about a great fighter. One of the greatest. Duran easily makes my top ten ATG list and I doubt that will change in my lifetime.

I don't think a whole lot of De La Hoya. Good fighter, yes. Great, no. Blown up by the media absolutely. Just like Leonard was. The difference between De La Hoya and Leonard, you simple minded, dim witted ball sack, is that Leonard was a great fighter. I watched Leonard win a gold medal for my country when I was 9 years old. I grew up watching replays of Robinson, Lamotta and Marciano so I wasn't looking for some media creation. I know a great fighter when I see one. Leonard proved he could fight in the ring you simpleton cum wad. I don't like to trash Duran, because he's a great and one of my favorites, but his one bitch move in life, quitting, was caused by Leonard you ball sack, lowlife.
You come on here and stereotype all Leonard fans by some experience you had on a plane in your small little world. Then you have the nerve to come on and make nazi prison camp references. That's too far you diseased piece of dog dung. I pray to one day be on a plane with you, you worthless fuck. I'll show you what an SS guard deserved. Of course, I'm quite certain you aren't as badass in person. You come on here and brag about swindeling people out of their money. What is it you actually do for a living lowlife?
I forget more about boxing than you know you fucking simpleton.

[leverage]

He might even be confusing four or five of his top five with someone else.
He must be.

[Sweet Pea]

Leonard fought Hagler, Hearns, Duran, and Benitez. He beat them all, the only one he even faltered against was the very best Duran in an all time great fight. Fuck the Leonard haters in the ass with a spiked bat.

[Maxmomer]

Floyd Mayweather Jr, Jim Jeffries, Rocky Marciano.

[Sweet Pea]

Floyd Mayweather Jr, Jim Jeffries, Rocky Marciano.Fawk yoooouuuu!

[Maxmomer]

Fawk yoooouuuu!

Yes.

[Maxmomer]

2,3,4. Dempsey, Langford, Ross. Even if you dig deep there is so little credible evidence to go on, unless you are all 100 years old and completely unbiased with these fighters you grew up watching. From what film there is, they do not appear to be on the level of any heavyweight superstar from 1940 onwards. Its the shoddy film that makes them appear poor?

I think you just suck at watching film.

[PetethePrince]

I think you just suck at watching film.

You too.

[duranimal]

I'm reading 'Hands of Stone' right now. It's a great book about a great fighter. One of the greatest. Duran easily makes my top ten ATG list and I doubt that will change in my lifetime.

I don't think a whole lot of De La Hoya. Good fighter, yes. Great, no. Blown up by the media absolutely. Just like Leonard was. The difference between De La Hoya and Leonard, you simple minded, dim witted ball sack, is that Leonard was a great fighter. I watched Leonard win a gold medal for my country when I was 9 years old. I grew up watching replays of Robinson, Lamotta and Marciano so I wasn't looking for some media creation. I know a great fighter when I see one. Leonard proved he could fight in the ring you simpleton cum wad. I don't like to trash Duran, because he's a great and one of my favorites, but his one bitch move in life, quitting, was caused by Leonard you ball sack, lowlife.
You come on here and stereotype all Leonard fans by some experience you had on a plane in your small little world. Then you have the nerve to come on and make nazi prison camp references. That's too far you diseased piece of dog dung. I pray to one day be on a plane with you, you worthless fuck. I'll show you what an SS guard deserved. Of course, I'm quite certain you aren't as badass in person. You come on here and brag about swindeling people out of their money. What is it you actually do for a living lowlife?
I forget more about boxing than you know you fucking simpleton.

What a pathetic rant befitting yer "Drama Queen" status:D

Well it's obvious that you're the village idiots village idiot confimed by the fact that yer just don't read that well as i said 90% of Leonard fans & not 100% in general you thick ignorant cunt!

I too watched Leonard win GOLD in Montreal & we all raved about him but what the fuck has that got to do with what he got up to in manipulating the boxing world the way he did? ABSOLUTLY NOTHING:deal so stop hiding behind the "I love my Country" shite & face the facts you deluded streak of paralysed piss & stop confusing the young guns on here as to Leonards real status.

It's all thanks too in denial clowns like you that refuse too accept that the majority of fight fans & media back in the day we're all getting sick to death of Leonard & his machavelion antics which tipped the balance in 1982 when he disgracefully used Hagler as his stooge for his so called retirement party.

But a worm like you will always burrow deep underground & avoid the truth in that the common concensus of the day amounst the majority of fight afficiardo's was that Leonard was avoiding any threat to his fistic $$$$$ earning potential (FMJ adopting the same strat) you & your ilk will always be blind to the truth as thats the way you're sort want it.

But a few of us on ESB will inform those who were'nt around back then as to what this scoundral was really all about so don't come the big daddie with me you turd as i've already slapped you down on a couple of occasions already & exposed you for bitter gutless little bully that you actually are:D

Now with regard to that statement of bravado in you wishing/praying to be on the same flight as me:lol: Well, you know & i know that you would just sit down & keep yer big fuckin mouth shut & i doubt very much that with all yer huff puff & bluster you'd want it any other way, so swim in your pond little fish where's it's safe & stay away from the sea where there's sharks.

So yer did'nt find my SS camp guard quip funny! Well i fuckin DID:lol: so i take it you don't have yer missis dressed up in black bra/pants & stockings then.

With regard to swindling folk? NAH:nono If useless greedy cunts like you want to remorgage to the hilt & invest there $$$ in Madoff then i'am entitled too yer $$$$ also & why not as you are nothing but a sheep judging by yer posts on ESB & sheep get slaughtered:smoke

Just google this name:

KOfightposters

Then get yer gob-shite tough-guy arse back on here & BOW 2 me you fuckin dog:bbb

I'am the largest modern day boxing/fight poster outfit on the globe so PM me with yer homege & fawning respect thats if you ai'nt got the guts to go public with it.

I've told you too fuck off a couple of time's now!!! Now what part of;

FUCK OFF
Don't
You
Understand
:smoke

[AMBOY]

What a pathetic rant befitting yer "Drama Queen" status:D

Well it's obvious that you're the village idiots village idiot confimed by the fact that yer just don't read that well as i said 90% of Leonard fans & not 100% in general you thick ignorant cunt!

I too watched Leonard win GOLD in Montreal & we all raved about him but what the fuck has that got to do with what he got up to in manipulating the boxing world the way he did? ABSOLUTLY NOTHING:deal so stop hiding behind the "I love my Country" shite & face the facts you deluded streak of paralysed piss & stop confusing the young guns on here as to Leonards real status.

It's all thanks too in denial clowns like you that refuse too accept that the majority of fight fans & media back in the day we're all getting sick to death of Leonard & his machavelion antics which tipped the balance in 1982 when he disgracefully used Hagler as his stooge for his so called retirement party.

But a worm like you will always burrow deep underground & avoid the truth in that the common concensus of the day amounst the majority of fight afficiardo's was that Leonard was avoiding any threat to his fistic $$$$$ earning potential (FMJ adopting the same strat) you & your ilk will always be blind to the truth as thats the way you're sort want it.

But a few of us on ESB will inform those who were'nt around back then as to what this scoundral was really all about so don't come the big daddie with me you turd as i've already slapped you down on a couple of occasions already & exposed you for bitter gutless little bully that you actually are:D

Now with regard to that statement of bravado in you wishing/praying to be on the same flight as me:lol: Well, you know & i know that you would just sit down & keep yer big fuckin mouth shut & i doubt very much that with all yer huff puff & bluster you'd want it any other way, so swim in your pond little fish where's it's safe & stay away from the sea where there's sharks.

So yer did'nt find my SS camp guard quip funny! Well i fuckin DID:lol: so i take it you don't have yer missis dressed up in black bra/pants & stockings then.

With regard to swindling folk? NAH:nono If useless greedy cunts like you want to remorgage to the hilt & invest there $$$ in Madoff then i'am entitled too yer $$$$ also & why not as you are nothing but a sheep judging by yer posts on ESB & sheep get slaughtered:smoke

Just google this name:

KOfightposters

Then get yer gob-shite tough-guy arse back on here & BOW 2 me you fuckin dog:bbb

I'am the largest modern day boxing/fight poster outfit on the globe so PM me with yer homege & fawning respect thats if you ai'nt got the guts to go public with it.

I've told you too fuck off a couple of time's now!!! Now what part of;

FUCK OFF
Don't
You
Understand

:smoke


Fuckin quality site that m8, you must know ya boxing.

[ballznall]

sam peter ,cassius clay,PBF,big john tate,..........

[ballznall]

Floyd Mayweather Jr, Jim Jeffries, Rocky Marciano.
....the 49 guys rocky beat did not think he was overrated.....

[frankenfrank]

You are right. I should have picked an earlier KO. At least I can admit my faults. :lol:
thank you for clarifying my point.

[frankenfrank]

All the pre-1930s fighters on this board, the skills/era werent very good
langford , young peter jackson at least must have been very good.

[natonic]

What a pathetic rant befitting yer "Drama Queen" status:D

Well it's obvious that you're the village idiots village idiot confimed by the fact that yer just don't read that well as i said 90% of Leonard fans & not 100% in general you thick ignorant cunt!

I too watched Leonard win GOLD in Montreal & we all raved about him but what the fuck has that got to do with what he got up to in manipulating the boxing world the way he did? ABSOLUTLY NOTHING:deal so stop hiding behind the "I love my Country" shite & face the facts you deluded streak of paralysed piss & stop confusing the young guns on here as to Leonards real status.

It's all thanks too in denial clowns like you that refuse too accept that the majority of fight fans & media back in the day we're all getting sick to death of Leonard & his machavelion antics which tipped the balance in 1982 when he disgracefully used Hagler as his stooge for his so called retirement party.

But a worm like you will always burrow deep underground & avoid the truth in that the common concensus of the day amounst the majority of fight afficiardo's was that Leonard was avoiding any threat to his fistic $$$$$ earning potential (FMJ adopting the same strat) you & your ilk will always be blind to the truth as thats the way you're sort want it.

But a few of us on ESB will inform those who were'nt around back then as to what this scoundral was really all about so don't come the big daddie with me you turd as i've already slapped you down on a couple of occasions already & exposed you for bitter gutless little bully that you actually are:D

Now with regard to that statement of bravado in you wishing/praying to be on the same flight as me:lol: Well, you know & i know that you would just sit down & keep yer big fuckin mouth shut & i doubt very much that with all yer huff puff & bluster you'd want it any other way, so swim in your pond little fish where's it's safe & stay away from the sea where there's sharks.

So yer did'nt find my SS camp guard quip funny! Well i fuckin DID:lol: so i take it you don't have yer missis dressed up in black bra/pants & stockings then.

With regard to swindling folk? NAH:nono If useless greedy cunts like you want to remorgage to the hilt & invest there $$$ in Madoff then i'am entitled too yer $$$$ also & why not as you are nothing but a sheep judging by yer posts on ESB & sheep get slaughtered:smoke

Just google this name:

KOfightposters

Then get yer gob-shite tough-guy arse back on here & BOW 2 me you fuckin dog:bbb

I'am the largest modern day boxing/fight poster outfit on the globe so PM me with yer homege & fawning respect thats if you ai'nt got the guts to go public with it.

I've told you too fuck off a couple of time's now!!! Now what part of;

FUCK OFF
Don't
You
Understand

:smoke


Wow!! You hock fight posters on the internet. My apologies, that's makes you a real fucking expert. What you and other dimwits like you don't seem to understand is that 90% of us (your key term) come on here to evaluate fighters. It's fucking irrelevant whether Leonard was a shady fucker, whether Monzon tossed chicks out windows, or whether Jack Johnson fucked white chicks by the dozens. It is kind of relevant that Leonard made Duran quit like a bitch because that actually happened in the ring, but 90% of us don't hold that against him. Most of us have a fucking life and don't feel the need to slander great fighters on a web site like you do small little man.
So you sell fight posters, so I should bow to you? Seems to me like you do enough bowing for both of us. It all makes sense now. So you go up to fighters like a little bitch and ask them to sign 10 posters for you. Leonard probably refused you and then refused your offer of a blowjob or a rimjob. Thus the bitterness.
Your gonna get the last word on this fuckwit because you're a small little fucker who doesn't know when to shut the fuck up. Besides, I don't feel the need to compare dick sizes on the internet with losers like yourself, I actually have a real job. It's obvious anyway from all your bluster that you don't have a dick. Bow to you? Sorry, I don't bow to anyone. Try not to hurt your back when bowing to the likes of fucking Zab Judah, "Mr. Judah, can you please sign 10 of my posters? Please sir?" Get a life, loser. I'm done, you aren't worth 10 more seconds of my time.

[duranimal]

Wow!! You hock fight posters on the internet. My apologies, that's makes you a real fucking expert. What you and other dimwits like you don't seem to understand is that 90% of us (your key term) come on here to evaluate fighters. It's fucking irrelevant whether Leonard was a shady fucker, whether Monzon tossed chicks out windows, or whether Jack Johnson fucked white chicks by the dozens. It is kind of relevant that Leonard made Duran quit like a bitch because that actually happened in the ring, but 90% of us don't hold that against him. Most of us have a fucking life and don't feel the need to slander great fighters on a web site like you do small little man.
So you sell fight posters, so I should bow to you? Seems to me like you do enough bowing for both of us. It all makes sense now. So you go up to fighters like a little bitch and ask them to sign 10 posters for you. Leonard probably refused you and then refused your offer of a blowjob or a rimjob. Thus the bitterness.
Your gonna get the last word on this fuckwit because you're a small little fucker who doesn't know when to shut the fuck up. Besides, I don't feel the need to compare dick sizes on the internet with losers like yourself, I actually have a real job. It's obvious anyway from all your bluster that you don't have a dick. Bow to you? Sorry, I don't bow to anyone. Try not to hurt your back when bowing to the likes of fucking Zab Judah, "Mr. Judah, can you please sign 10 of my posters? Please sir?" Get a life, loser. I'm done, you aren't worth 10 more seconds of my time.

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

Now Now:nono yer setting a bad example to the young guns on here by not behaving in a mature cool calm & collected manner:D

I take it you've just got outer bed & went straight onto here to see my reply:lol::lol::lol: then tried to eat yer breakie & threw-up:rofl

I pay Ray $30.00 a sig sweetheart, Ray does fuck-all for FREE:scaredas:

Well here's a little something to help you calm down & stop yer giving the missis & kids a kickin:lol:

Why not use it as yer avi!!!! ENJOY:thumbsup



[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[AMBOY]

How can Duran be even mentioned as overrated...??? probably the greatest lightweight that ever lived, won world titles in 4 weight divisions, fought in 5 differant decades, beat up Ray Leonard when Ray was at his VERY BEST, i could go on all night..????? is it a piss take.

[redrooster]

Leonard fought Hagler, Hearns, Duran, and Benitez. He beat them all, the only one he even faltered against was the very best Duran in an all time great fight. Fuck the Leonard haters in the ass with a spiked bat.

:tired

Where have we heard this before?

boring, unimaginative, and uninspiring

[WhataRock]

:tired

Where have we heard this before?

boring, unimaginative, and uninspiring

Facts are boring and unimaginative to you?

Would you rather Philip Roth dream you up an alternate history?

[BENNY BLANCO]

Facts are boring and unimaginative to you?

Would you rather Philip Roth dream you up an alternate history?

Rooster is not bored by the "facts", he is bored by the redundancy that's put forth by Leonard fans. I must say I am bored with Leonard fans redundancy as well.

[WhataRock]

Rooster is not bored by the "facts", he is bored by the redundancy that's put forth by Leonard fans. I must say I am bored with Leonard fans redundancy as well.


What exactly do you find "redundant" about it Benny?

[BENNY BLANCO]

What exactly do you find "redundant" about it Benny? That whenever someone questions the amount of praise that Leonard gets and exposes a few facts about his career moves they are so quick to say how he beat Duran, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler. Like that should excuse his ducking of Nunn, Pryor, Jackson. And not to mention he only fought Hagler and the Duran rematch because stipulations and circumstances was on his side.

Its safe to say Leonard is the original "Void".

[My2Sense]

Ali!
neither Lewis, Tyson, Viatali or even Haye would have been in any danger of loosing to Frazier

No, they were just in danger of losing to ATGs like Oliver McCall, Buster Douglas, Chris Byrd, or Carl Thompson.

:nut

[My2Sense]

Roy Jones is definitely top ten material. Even Powerpuncher would attest to this and to not admit it is to bring shame upon yourself

You must be blind not to see it

A top ten ranking isn't "seen," it's something that's proven in the ring. Roy either lost or failed to make too many fights that were crucial to his legacy, which precludes him from the top 10.

Anyone who rates a fighter just based on "looks" doesn't know how to rate fighters.

[My2Sense]

Once i start posting, it sometimes gets quiet. everybody stays out of the way for a few hours

Usually because they're waiting on you to provide pieces of evidence that you claimed you had, but never produce. You know, like the article claiming Camacho beat Whitaker in sparring, or scorecards for the Gavilan-Graham series.

[My2Sense]

2,3,4. Dempsey, Langford, Ross. Even if you dig deep there is so little credible evidence to go on, unless you are all 100 years old and completely unbiased with these fighters you grew up watching. From what film there is, they do not appear to be on the level of any heavyweight superstar from 1940 onwards. Its the shoddy film that makes them appear poor? SRR looks great on film, Pep does, Moore does, Armstrong does, Patterson does. Yes you could say their records are what makes them great, but can you seriously say that Dempsey would stand half a chance of beating Louis, Ali, Holmes, Lennox, Holyfield?? And Calzaghe has a great record, FMJ does too, but you will pick their records apart all day...these ancient fighters only ever fought prime top contenders? only lost past their prime? Sam Langford for christ sake! theres like six pieces of footage! how can you possibly know his opponents were top notch? 300+ fights is great(although he either lost or drew a third of them) but how can you even rank him so high on merely hearsay??



Huh?? What the heck does Ross have to do with anything in this post??

[JohnThomas1]

A top ten ranking isn't "seen," it's something that's proven in the ring. Roy either lost or failed to make too many fights that were crucial to his legacy, which precludes him from the top 10.

Anyone who rates a fighter just based on "looks" doesn't know how to rate fighters.

You must not have seen peak Norris, Camacho, Bowe, Ayala, Roldan, Le Animarl Fletcher, Roldan, Dwight Davison and James "Hard rock" Green!!!!

:lol:

[WhataRock]

That whenever someone questions the amount of praise that Leonard gets and exposes a few facts about his career moves they are so quick to say how he beat Duran, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler. Like that should excuse his ducking of Nunn, Pryor, Jackson. And not to mention he only fought Hagler and the Duran rematch because stipulations and circumstances was on his side.

Its safe to say Leonard is the original "Void".


Yes how stupid of them....Ray really scrapped the barrel with those guys instead of fighting those true greats. You've convinced me now Benny.

[redrooster]

Facts are boring and unimaginative to you?

Would you rather Philip Roth dream you up an alternate history?

I have my own set of facts:

Terry Norris destroyed 3-1 fave & 5 time world champion Leonard-no sweat!

Mugabi, Taylor-the fastest man in the sport, Simon Brown and Don Curry, two of the best welterweights to ever lace up the gloves

Can you live with those results? I can

[Sweet Pea]

I have my own set of facts:

Terry Norris destroyed 3-1 fave & 5 time world champion Leonard-no sweat!

Mugabi, Taylor-the fastest man in the sport, Simon Brown and Don Curry, two of the best welterweights to ever lace up the gloves

Can you live with those results? I can

A shot Leonard, a shot Mugabi, a shot Taylor, a shot Brown, and a shot Curry. Looking strong, looking strong. You forgot to mention that same Brown also KTFO Norris.

[TheGreatA]

That whenever someone questions the amount of praise that Leonard gets and exposes a few facts about his career moves they are so quick to say how he beat Duran, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler. Like that should excuse his ducking of Nunn, Pryor, Jackson. And not to mention he only fought Hagler and the Duran rematch because stipulations and circumstances was on his side.

Its safe to say Leonard is the original "Void".

I'm equally as tired with the redundant accusations by the Leonard haters with nothing to back them up.

Leonard ducked Pryor? I believe I already cleared that up.

Leonard ducked Jackson? Julian Jackson?

Leonard ducked Nunn? Maybe when he was an old man.

Criticizing Leonard's wins over Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Benitez while bringing up Norris's wins over a bunch of washed up 1980's fighters, most from lower weights, isn't the way to go on about it.

[redrooster]

A shot Leonard, a shot Mugabi, a shot Taylor, a shot Brown, and a shot Curry. Looking strong, looking strong. You forgot to mention that same Brown also KTFO Norris.

those arent facts. Those are opinions

I would think someone as knowledgable as you would know the difference

[JohnThomas1]

I have my own set of facts:

Terry Norris destroyed 3-1 fave & 5 time world champion Leonard-no sweat!

Mugabi, Taylor-the fastest man in the sport, Simon Brown and Don Curry, two of the best welterweights to ever lace up the gloves

Can you live with those results? I can

How can those be facts, Norris was sweating before they even began :lol:

Facts - pfffffffft

[bcastro]

I am a BIG Duran fan but yeah he is ranked a little high IMO. His losses to Hearns (KO) and Lenard (NO MAS) and his weight (lifestyle) should be factors in his placement. Later in his career he just was a blob....with Power if he keeped a clean lifestyle and focused on his blobnes...LOL he could have been greater.

[essexboy]

Yes how stupid of them....Ray really scrapped the barrel with those guys instead of fighting those true greats. You've convinced me now Benny.

:lol:

[My2Sense]

That whenever someone questions the amount of praise that Leonard gets and exposes a few facts about his career moves they are so quick to say how he beat Duran, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler. Like that should excuse his ducking of Nunn, Pryor, Jackson.

Seeing as most of those guys were better or more accomplished than the guys you are accusing him of "ducking" instead, then yes it does.


And not to mention he only fought Hagler and the Duran rematch because stipulations and circumstances was on his side.


Having an immediate rematch after losing a punishing battle, and coming straight off a three year layoff with a detached retina were definitely not "on his side."

[My2Sense]

those arent facts. Those are opinions

I would think someone as knowledgable as you would know the difference

It's not an "opinion" that he was stopped by huge underdog Simon Brown, Einstein. :patsch

[Jersey Joe]

1. Roberto Duran - Looking at his numerically impressive record i can see why he might be so highly rated, however his notable wins were against Palomino and Cuevas, who were both beyond their primes and on their way out. This type of negativity is applied to (in some cases) all the big named wins of more recent fighters, but Duran seems to be immune to it. His other defining wins? He went 2-1 with De Jesus, won a SD against Barkley and ofcourse the exceptional victory over SRL. Every other career defining fight he lost...SRLx2(he even QUIT in a sorry fashion, which would be unforgiving for any other fighter, with Duran however the excuses hold strong), Hagler, Hearns, Benitez, (the followng are excusable but still big fights - Paz, Joppy, Camacho). In my opinion what it boils down to is his one victory over the universally bagged hated more than FMJ, SRL. And his tysonesque personna(minus the black skin and hood talk) which makes people hold him in such a high regard.


You seem to overlook Duran's achievements at his natural weight in his prime - he was 13-0 in title fights in the lightweight division (12 by stoppage), including a victory over the superb Ken Buchanan, and stayed champion for 7 years. Duran's achievements at lightweight alone are great - if he had retired before the Leonard fight his record would have been 71-1 and he'd have been in the top 10 P4P of all-time on that alone.

He then moved up to welter and beat arguably the 2nd greatest welterweight of all time. At 37 he won the middleweight title. The Leonard win and the Barkley win were really amazing achievements -I can't think of too many fighters who moved up 4 weight divisions to become world champion in their late 30s, or who beat a younger top 3 ATG who was 2 weight divisions above their prime fighting weight.

Basically you are knocking him because he had some losses at welter and middleweight - well he had wins too, and most of his losses were against ATG fighters like Benitez, Hagler, Hearns. Imagine if Hagler had moved up to cruiserweight after the Leonard fight and lost...would that tarnish his legacy? Or if Leonard had taken fights at light heavy and been KOd?

How many other former lightweights scored such victories at welter and middleweight?

[Jersey Joe]

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Lennox Lewis
5. Lennox Lewis

The only top 5 list he really deserves a spot in.

Beat every guy he ever fought, won 17 heavyweight title fights, only beaten twice and one was a dubious early stoppage, and in his late 30s beat the heir apparent in his last fight, won an olympic gold. How is he overrated? If anything, Lewis is underrated.

[BENNY BLANCO]

Yes how stupid of them....Ray really scrapped the barrel with those guys instead of fighting those true greats. You've convinced me now Benny. Yeah he was essentially scraping the barrel by fighting Hearns in the rematch because he thought it was safe being that Hearns had recently got put in the dirt by Barkley, Leonard lost that fight but his judges made sure to save him. Leonard had the stipulations on his side in the Hagler fight so I can care less about that fight and giving Duran a third fight was sad because he clearly was avoiding real threats like McCallum, Jackson, Nunn who all three would have whooped his ass.

[BENNY BLANCO]

Seeing as most of those guys were better or more accomplished than the guys you are accusing him of "ducking" instead, then yes it does. More accomplished? Yes you are right about that.

But were they bigger threats head to head than Nunn, McCallum, Jackson?....No they were not, which is why Leonard steered clear from those 3 fellas.


Having an immediate rematch after losing a punishing battle, and coming straight off a three year layoff with a detached retina were definitely not "on his side." Granted Duran was an excuse maker but he was not up to par in the rematch and even Leonard admitted to it, so I have strong doubts as to whether he would have pursued a rematch with Duran if he were in top notch shape physically and mentally like he was in Montreal. And its not like SRL had a detached retina like David Reid so lets not over blow that. That was just another fabricated media sensation by SRL. As I said the stipulations in the Hagler fight favored Leonard only.

[redrooster]

Having an immediate rematch after losing a punishing battle, and coming straight off a three year layoff with a detached retina were definitely not "on his side."

why not set the standards for himself higher then?

Give Hagler a rematch the way Duran gave Leonard one. If he gets passed hagler again, he can go on to Micheal Nunn.

I dont think that's too much to ask for. Do you?

[redrooster]

It's not an "opinion" that he was stopped by huge underdog Simon Brown, Einstein. :patsch

read the quote more carefully before responding

maybe it's time you got your eyes checked?

[redrooster]

More accomplished? Yes you are right about that.

But were they bigger threats head to head than Nunn, McCallum, Jackson?....No they were not, which is why Leonard steered clear from those 3 fellas.



Thats a subject his fans won't go near with a ten foot pole. It would drastically affect his standing every time they were reminded

[duranimal]

Yeah he was essentially scraping the barrel by fighting Hearns in the rematch because he thought it was safe being that Hearns had recently got put in the dirt by Barkley, Leonard lost that fight but his judges made sure to save him. Leonard had the stipulations on his side in the Hagler fight so I can care less about that fight and giving Duran a third fight was sad because he clearly was avoiding real threats like McCallum, Jackson, Nunn who all three would have whooped his ass.

Duran was an easy touch for Leonard in 89 seeing that Duran's exit visa had been revoked & he had a massive tax bill so had to dance to the Leonard tune again & behave himself & make sure that he followed Leonards discreet orders to weigh in under 160LBs when the contracted catchweight was 163LBs for Leonards S/Middle title & duran came in at 158.5 & Leonard sticks the knife even futher in by coming in bang on 160 so neither of them were inside S/Middle

So Bob Arum yells out that it must be for both title's!!! Duran's camp go nuts & say it's for Leonards title but Jose Sulliman strips Duran of his Middleweight crown after the fight seeing that he lost at middleweight as both weighed in at middleweight so work that fucker out seeing the fight was meant to be for the WBC Middleweight Crown & that was all down to that dirty bastard Leonard not even putting a roll of quarters into his track suit bottoms so as to be inside S/Middle thus protecting Durans title, talk about getting fucked over AGAIN!!!

But leonard fucked it for himself big time by again using the take the money & run tactics after publicly saying that he was going to fight duran as he had unfinished bizzness with him & we all swallowed that shit:oops:

He had all the celebs walking out by round 10 & the crown chanting bullshit bullshit, this was meant to be Steve Winns crowning glory to celebrate the opening of the Mirage,he was expecting a mega performence but ended up with that shit:fire he vowed that Leonard would never ever fight in Vegas again & he did'nt, thats why he had to fight Terry Norris in NY.

[red cobra]

Beat every guy he ever fought, won 17 heavyweight title fights, only beaten twice and one was a dubious early stoppage, and in his late 30s beat the heir apparent in his last fight, won an olympic gold. How is he overrated? If anything, Lewis is underrated.
Lewis is terribly underrated, especially amongst those who think erroeously that a prime Bowe or Tyson would have beaten him.

[Bummy Davis]

You seem to overlook Duran's achievements at his natural weight in his prime - he was 13-0 in title fights in the lightweight division (12 by stoppage), including a victory over the superb Ken Buchanan, and stayed champion for 7 years. Duran's achievements at lightweight alone are great - if he had retired before the Leonard fight his record would have been 71-1 and he'd have been in the top 10 P4P of all-time on that alone.

He then moved up to welter and beat arguably the 2nd greatest welterweight of all time. At 37 he won the middleweight title. The Leonard win and the Barkley win were really amazing achievements -I can't think of too many fighters who moved up 4 weight divisions to become world champion in their late 30s, or who beat a younger top 3 ATG who was 2 weight divisions above their prime fighting weight.

Basically you are knocking him because he had some losses at welter and middleweight - well he had wins too, and most of his losses were against ATG fighters like Benitez, Hagler, Hearns. Imagine if Hagler had moved up to cruiserweight after the Leonard fight and lost...would that tarnish his legacy? Or if Leonard had taken fights at light heavy and been KOd?

How many other former lightweights scored such victories at welter and middleweight?

True if you take Duran as a lightweight alone he was top 3 lightweight on most lists. 135lbs was his weight and that was his home. Only because he was great could he move up and fight the experienced Olympic Champ and World Welter weight Champ and win. 71-1 was quite a record and look at some of the names he beat at lightweight Buchanan,Dejesus, who was his only loss that he avenged 2 times. Duran dominated 135. I think Duran was the best fighter of the 70's and that is saying a lot

[WhataRock]

Yeah he was essentially scraping the barrel by fighting Hearns in the rematch because he thought it was safe being that Hearns had recently got put in the dirt by Barkley, Leonard lost that fight but his judges made sure to save him. Leonard had the stipulations on his side in the Hagler fight so I can care less about that fight and giving Duran a third fight was sad because he clearly was avoiding real threats like McCallum, Jackson, Nunn who all three would have whooped his ass.

Well this is just going to go around in circles..At the end of the day history and the vast majority of fans will remember Leonard as one of the greatest of alltime, one of the most complete fighters to ever lace them up and with a resume that has top shelf wins that are as good as any fighter in history. He beat the best fighters available at the time of his prime and stepped up against one of the greatest middleweights ever when things were stacked against him just as much if not more than they were against the ageing Marvin.

You and your mate redrooster can stew all you like about the fighters Leonard didnt fight when he was old, lame and semi-retired. You have an uphill battle on your hands getting people to focus on that rather then the greater, more accomplished fighters he actually beat in his and their primes.

[Bokaj]

:tired

Where have we heard this before?

boring, unimaginative, and uninspiring

Yeah. The simple truth often is just that.

[duranimal]

Well this is just going to go around in circles..At the end of the day history and the vast majority of fans will remember Leonard as one of the greatest of alltime, one of the most complete fighters to ever lace them up and with a resume that has top shelf wins that are as good as any fighter in history. He beat the best fighters available at the time of his prime and stepped up against one of the greatest middleweights ever when things were stacked against him just as much if not more than they were against the ageing Marvin.

You and your mate redrooster can stew all you like about the fighters Leonard didnt fight when he was old, lame and semi-retired. You have an uphill battle on your hands getting people to focus on that rather then the greater, more accomplished fighters he actually beat in his and their primes.


I've always given Leonard the utmost credit & respect with regard to his victory over Benitez/Hearns when back then there was only the WBA/WBC & no hiding place.

It was Benitez or Cuevas & Duran/Hearns lurking just beneath the waves & a different more dangerous world than you could ever get as in compared to today what with the plethora of no danger bullshit title's belts that are handed out as in WBF/IBO ect.

I've been accused of being a Leonard hater by a few novices but in reality i'am not, well not when it comes to what he had to do in winning the title & especially the way he snatched victory from the jaws of defeat against Hearns starting with that unbelievable all out attack when he unloaded that avalanche onto Hearns in the 13th round has to be one of the greatest salvo's ever unleashed in any world title fight.

It just showed what it took to win when the tide had turned against you & it was only you that could turn it around, the stamina/will & drive to be able to do that "do or die salvo" showed just what it takes to become a genuine world champion "You've got to suck it up from the gut" as Leonard said.

That to me showed that he was indeed a great & remarkable champion at that time & deserved the plaudits that came with the job as when put to the ultimate test he passed it with distiction.

I just think he was a cunt after that, but the history books don't lie do they!! Benitez/Duran/Hearns/Hagler = 4 Aces in any mans poker match:smoke

The no-mas fiasco believe it or not never cut to me that much, well not as much as it does now after reading "Hands of Stone" where Duran was getting pissed up & having a party in his hotel room straight after walking out of the ring in New Orleans.

It was the Hearns wipe-out that left me on the floor choking & gasping for oxygen like & stranded fish, now that did hurt:|

[JohnThomas1]

why not set the standards for himself higher then?

Give Hagler a rematch the way Duran gave Leonard one.

Then you'd be whining he picked on a shot Hagler, AGAIN :lol:

Nothing he ever did would have been good enough for you red dog.

Now there's a fact!

[My2Sense]

More accomplished? Yes you are right about that.

But were they bigger threats head to head than Nunn, McCallum, Jackson?....No they were not, which is why Leonard steered clear from those 3 fellas.


Why not? Hearns had the power of Jackson (and no worse a chin) and the speed + physical advantages of Nunn. He was about as big a H2H threat to Leonard as you could get.

As for the others, Benitez was as good a defensive boxer as any of them, and Duran was as skilled/ferocious an infighter.


BTW, how is it that Pryor's name was suddenly substituted with McCallum's? :huh

[My2Sense]

why not set the standards for himself higher then?

:lol: He beat an ATG HOFer and reigning undisputed champ in each fight. There isn't anything higher than that.

Give Hagler a rematch the way Duran gave Leonard one.

:lol:

You refuse to give him credit for the first win, but then you want him to fight him a second time?? :nut

I dont think that's too much to ask for. Do you?

Yes.


read the quote more carefully before responding

I already did.

The Quote:
A shot Leonard, a shot Mugabi, a shot Taylor, a shot Brown, and a shot Curry. Looking strong, looking strong. You forgot to mention that same Brown also KTFO Norris.those arent facts. Those are opinions

:nut


maybe it's time you got your eyes checked?

Maybe it's time you looked in the mirror.

Thats a subject his fans won't go near with a ten foot pole.

That's because it's false.

[socrates]

duran 'overrated' wow!! are u fuckin kidding me? james toney now theres an overrated fuckwit if ever there was one!

[redrooster]

Then you'd be whining he picked on a shot Hagler, AGAIN :lol:

Nothing he ever did would have been good enough for you red dog.

Now there's a fact!

I can understand perfectly where you're coming from John

Nothing is ever good enough for you is it? We are MORE than satsified with Leonard's measly 4 wins. Even gift decisions! Why bother with rematches anyways?

ON the other hand, you must understand where I'm coming from. I wouldnt call defending his title exerting himself too much

I dont think anyone would mind too much to see what he had after the Hagler match now that the rust is gone

Why jump two divisions when you've got perfectly fine competion where you're at? :yep

Seems as tho his fans arent too eager to watch him risk too much and hence the satisfaction with his remedial boxing tour

remedial boxing tour :lol:

#11 p4p ever!

[redrooster]

<-------Terrible Terry Norris

Now THERE was a fighter!

[Addie]

<-------Terrible Terry Norris

Now THERE was a fighter!

:lol::lol::lol:

[Gesta]

Good post Duranimal.

[bigphilla1]

is this da same leonard hu was beatin by a lightweight camacho....tut tut tut

hahaha yeah right fuck off floyd u go beat a man hu is a natural 147 fighter and den have ur piece on ray leonard dont diss a great until u become a great

[My2Sense]

<-------Terrible Terry Norris

Now THERE was a fighter!

You mean that guy that was KTFO by Julian Jackson, Simon Brown, and Keith Mullings, never rematched Jackson or Mullings, and avoided JC Vasquez?

What a great set of consistent standards there! :nut

:lol:

[BENNY BLANCO]

You mean that guy that was KTFO by Julian Jackson, Simon Brown, and Keith Mullings, never rematched Jackson or Mullings, and avoided JC Vasquez?

What a great set of consistent standards there! :nut

:lol: Avoided JC Vasquez?....Give me a break!!!!!! Terry shuts him down the same way he did Vasquez fellow Argentinian Jorge Castro.:bbb

And Terry was a shot fighter when he lost to Mullings so you cant hold that against him in terms of legacy!:fire

[Sweet Pea]

:lol:I love the hypocrisy.

[WhataRock]

And Terry was a shot fighter when he lost to Mullings so you cant hold that against him in terms of legacy!:fire

:rofl:rofl:rofl

[BENNY BLANCO]

:rofl:rofl:rofl Why laugh at the truth, the man was a completely shot fighter when he lost to Mullings, Terry had no legs, and could not follow up on any combos and had no snap in his punches.

BTW what happened to your avatars with the sexy Chinese/Czech chick?

[WhataRock]

Like Pea I laugh at the hypocrisy Benny...You attack Leonard but give Norris a pass for pretty much the same thing.

Sofia is shelved for now mate...She was Canadian from half Croatian, half Chinese stock. Her site makes you pay for her pictures even though she maintains on blogs that she isnt like that, she is down to earth and just kind of does modeling for fun. I dont know that shit me for some reason.
But she is still fine as fuck, she will probably make a come back at some stage.....But I wanted to give some love for my aussie compadre Johnny Famechon.

[TheGreatA]

Why laugh at the truth, the man was a completely shot fighter when he lost to Mullings, Terry had no legs, and could not follow up on any combos and had no snap in his punches.

Unlike Ray Leonard who was at the peak of his boxing career against Terry Norris and was "exposed".

[sugarsean]

Why laugh at the truth, the man was a completely shot fighter when he lost to Mullings, Terry had no legs, and could not follow up on any combos and had no snap in his punches.

BTW what happened to your avatars with the sexy Chinese/Czech chick?

And thats exactly what was wrong with Ray against Terry yet you and Rooster act like it was a prime Leonard, thats why he's laughing.

[BENNY BLANCO]

And thats exactly what was wrong with Ray against Terry yet you and Rooster act like it was a prime Leonard, thats why he's laughing. No I never said Leonard was prime against Norris, I said he wasn't a shot fighter, he was still a world class fighter.

I forgot who I said this to the other day but I'll say it to you, WAR, Pea. Getting beatdown by a prime Norris at 154 is not an indication of being shot, it's an indication of being inferior. Getting beat by a tough journeyman like Mullins is really an indication of being shot.

[sugarsean]

No I never said Leonard was prime against Norris, I said he wasn't a shot fighter, he was still a world class fighter.

I forgot who I said this to the other day but I'll say it to you, WAR, Pea. Getting beatdown by a prime Norris at 154 is not an indication of being shot, it's an indication of being inferior. Getting beat by a tough journeyman like Mullins is really an indication of being shot.

Leonard had no legs, and could not follow up on any combos and had no snap in his punches, just like what you said about Norris against Mullings,

so when Norris lose's in a fight where he show signs of decline he is shot but when Leonard shows the exact same signs against Norris he is still a world class fighter,

thats hypocrisy right there,

[My2Sense]

No I never said Leonard was prime against Norris, I said he wasn't a shot fighter, he was still a world class fighter.


He hadn't even had a fight in over a year, and never won a fight afterward. In contrast to Norris against Mullings, who was still a reigning titleholder and performing well just prior to the Mullings fight.

Leonard was a lot farther removed from his best when he fought Norris than Norris was when he fought Mullings.

[BENNY BLANCO]

Leonard had no legs, and could not follow up on any combos and had no snap in his punches, just like what you said about Norris against Mullings,

so when Norris lose's in a fight where he show signs of decline he is shot but when Leonard shows the exact same signs against Norris he is still a world class fighter,

thats hypocrisy right there, No its not, you obviously ignored the point I made, but I'm not going to go in circles with you.

[My2Sense]

Leonard had no legs, and could not follow up on any combos and had no snap in his punches, just like what you said about Norris against Mullings,

so when Norris lose's in a fight where he show signs of decline he is shot but when Leonard shows the exact same signs against Norris he is still a world class fighter,

thats hypocrisy right there,

Bingo.

[My2Sense]

Avoided JC Vasquez?....Give me a break!!!!!! Terry shuts him down the same way he did Vasquez fellow Argentinian Jorge Castro.:bbb


You mean the way Leonard would've shut down Pryor and Jackson? :deal

[sugarsean]

No its not, you obviously ignored the point I made, but I'm not going to go in circles with you.

oh I know you ain't gonna go around in circles with me because I just caught you out for being a hypocrite.

[BENNY BLANCO]

He hadn't even had a fight in over a year, and never won a fight afterward. He didn't win a fight afterward cause he retired for 6 years! Leonard retired cause he couldn't live with the thought that another fighter had his number, and if he would have continued on he would have done very well but continuing on and doing well would have given Norris win over Leonard even more accolades and that's exactly what Leonard didn't want.


In contrast to Norris against Mullings, who was still a reigning titleholder and performing well just prior to the Mullings fight. Just because he was a reigning titleholder doesn't mean he wasn't shot to pieces. Sorry for my redundancy here but like I said 'getting beat by Mullings is an indication of being completely shot, getting beat by a prime Norris is not.



Leonard was a lot farther removed from his best when he fought Norris than Norris was when he fought Mullings. :lol: Even you don't believe that deep down, the Leonard of the Norris fight would blitz Mullings like nothing.

[My2Sense]

Just because he was a reigning titleholder doesn't mean he wasn't shot to pieces.

The fact that he was still performing well in those fights does.


Sorry for my redundancy here but like I said 'getting beat by Mullings is an indication of being completely shot, getting beat by a prime Norris is not.

No, BEING SHOT is an indication of being shot. You acknowledged that yourself in post #228 when you described Norris' legs and reflexes, but changed your angle after sugarsean called you on your double standard.

[sugarsean]

The fact that he was still performing well in those fights does.




No, BEING SHOT is an indication of being shot. You acknowledged that yourself in post #228 when you described Norris' legs and reflexes, but changed your angle after sugarsean called you on your double standard.

you see the problem is now that he has described what being shot means he can't think of how to twist it around for Norris beating Leonard thats why he has'nt answered me

[BENNY BLANCO]

The fact that he was still performing well in those fights does.

And just because Terry was performing well before his fight with Mullings doesn't mean he wasn't completely shot when he did fight fight Mullings, just look at who Terry lost to in his next two fights. It got to the point that the Nevada State Athletic Commission had to revoke Terry boxing license because his speech had become extremely slurred.


No, BEING SHOT is an indication of being shot. You acknowledged that yourself in post #228 when you described Norris' legs and reflexes, but changed your angle after sugarsean called you on your double standard. No Sugar still had his skills but Terry superiority made it look non existent.

[BENNY BLANCO]

you see the problem is now that he has described what being shot means he can't think of how to twist it around for Norris beating Leonard thats why he has'nt answered me What question of yours have I not answered?

Do I need to keep repeating myself?

[Sweet Pea]

No Sugar still had his skills but Terry superiority made it look non existent.:lol:You're fast becoming a Rooster clone.

[sugarsean]

And just because Terry was performing well before his fight with Mullings doesn't mean he wasn't completely shot when he did fight fight Mullings, just look at who Terry lost to in his next two fights. It got to the point that the Nevada State Athletic Commission had to revoke Terry boxing license because his speech had become extremely slurred.


No Sugar still had his skills but Terry superiority made it look non existent.

:nut

[My2Sense]

And just because Terry was performing well before his fight with Mullings doesn't mean he wasn't completely shot when he did fight fight Mullings, ...

Yes it does.


...just look at who Terry lost to in his next two fights.

Which would mean he was shot after Mullings knocked him out, not before.


No Sugar still had his skills but Terry superiority made it look non existent.

No, they looked non-existent because they WERE non-existent. A fighter's skills are still visible even if he's getting outfought.

[sugarsean]

:lol:You're fast becoming a Rooster clone.

I think Rooster is his Hero :lol:,

[redrooster]

Leonard had no legs, and could not follow up on any combos and had no snap in his punches, just like what you said about Norris against Mullings,

so when Norris lose's in a fight where he show signs of decline he is shot but when Leonard shows the exact same signs against Norris he is still a world class fighter,

thats hypocrisy right there,

what do you mean "he had no legs"?

he had his legs for Duran. His legs were in such great shape the crowd booed him remember?

How do you go back to back and fighting the perfect fight - a shutout to being shot and having no legs, especially when Duran didnt touch him the whole night?


stop making up this #%@$ bullshit!. You esbers have a long way to go!

Like Benny said, Ray was inferior. the problem is people like you and pea brain cant admit to it

Benny was 100% correct in what he said. Ray was inferior and would always come off second best. It's a matter of reflexes and between two speedsters, the faster man prevails

Ask any expert and they will tell you that the man that gets off first, consistently, will take over and dictate.

Look at Roy Jones in the years he was on top and youll see this is true. Roy was always the one getting in first

Everyone was afraid to engage him because they were afraid of getting caught by the retaliation they couldnt see, so they backed off. Like Ray Leonard in the Norris fight, he backed away. he couldnt handle the speed of Norris. He wasnt used to it.

Same thing happened between Camacho and Davis-two boxers. The man that got in first dominated. Like leonard, Davis didnt know what to do when the target was on the move. Howard Davis and Ray Leonard cannot counter someone who is overall faster than themselves

and ESBers cannot comprehend this simple fact. After reading this, they still wont understand it

They'll just go back to their usual babble "Ray leonard faced Benitez, Duran, Hearns, Hagler. he beat then all!" :nut

Leonard's careful selection of opponents should have tipped you off

that's the problem Leonard had with Norris.

You think TNT Norris is going to let Ray just "study" him so he can look for the right opening?

Terry's going to be in his face backing him up, hitting him so fast that he has to back up just to see what the hell he's doing to him. If they face each other 10 times, Ray STILL wont be able to handle him. Norris is way to steep on the learning curve for Ray to handle, even if you gave him 15 rounds

[sugarsean]

what do you mean "he had no legs"?

he had his legs for Duran. His legs were in such great shape the crowd booed him remember?

How do you go back to back and fighting the perfect fight - a shutout to being shot and having no legs, especially when Duran didnt touch him the whole night?


stop making up this #%@$ bullshit!. You esbers have a long way to go!

Like Benny said, Ray was inferior. the problem is people like you and pea brain cant admit to it

Benny was 100% correct in what he said. Ray was inferior and would always come off second best. It's a matter of reflexes and between two speedsters, the faster man prevails

Ask any expert and they will tell you that the man that gets off first, consistently, will take over and dictate.

Look at Roy Jones in the years he was on top and youll see this is true. Roy was always the one getting in first

Everyone was afraid to engage him because they were afraid of getting caught by the retaliation they couldnt see, so they backed off. Like Ray Leoanrd in the Norris fight, he backed away. he couldnt handle the speed of Norris. He wasnt used to it.

Same thing happened between Camacho and Davis-two boxers. The man that got in first dominated. Like leoanrd, Davis didnt know what to do when the target was on the move. Howard Davis and Ray Leonard cannot counter someone who is overall faster than themselves

and ESBers cannot comprehend this simple fact. After reading this, they still wont understand it

They'll just go back to their usual babble "Ray leonard faced Benitez, Duran, Hearns, Hagler. he beat then all!" :nut

Leonard's careful selection of opponents should have tipped you off

that's the problem Leonard had with Norris.

You think TNT Norris is going to let Ray just "study" him so he can look for the right opening?

Terry's going to be in his face backing him up, hitting him so fast that he has to back up just to see what the hell he's doing to him. If they face each other 10 times, Ray STILL wont be able to handle him. Norris is way to steep on the learning curve for Ray to handle, even if you gave him 15 rounds

Because Duran was 38 years old and more shot than Leonard and was just following him around the ring.

Man you talk so much shit and your worshipping of Norris is so bad that even Norris would say that you chat shit.

[redrooster]

You mean the way Leonard would've shut down Pryor and Jackson? :deal

he had the chance to face both. Why didnt he just show us instead of you having to tell us?