Bob Fitzsimmons on Jeffries versus Johnson, one day after the fight

[McGrain]

Jeffries was not there. He looked great. I never saw him looking better; but he left his vitality on the road. He worked himself out training for thisi fight and when he got into the ring it was without his vim.

He wasn't even a quarter of the man he was when he went against me. It was the most pitiful sight I have ever seen to see that man, once the greatest of us all, lying feebly on the floor trying weakly to get up. I felt so sorry at the spectacle that I cried like a baby. I felt like leaping into the ring. If I Johnson had met the Jeffries I had met there would have been a different story to tell. But there's no use in speaking as to what might have happened. It is all over now.

In the first round I thought Jeffries had the shade better of it but he did not display the aggression I expected of him. I thought he would rush Johnson. The second and third rounds were about the same and I kept waiting for Jeffries to display his old tactics, the irresistable tactics that beat me. After the fourth, I realised that Jeffries was not Jeffries any longer.

As far as Johnson is concerned, I say, the king is dead, long live the king. He is a big, strong, clean fighter with a powerful punch. He is one of the cleverest fighters we ever had. I used to think he was only a defensive fighter. He showed today he was an offensive fighter. When he wants to be he can be terribly aggressive. I believe that if he had forced the fighting it would not have gone further than the fourth.

But Johnson works along his own plans. He fought a clever, cool and masterly battle. He made me change my opinion of him as a fighter.

I don't think there is a man in the wolrd that would have a chance against Johnson in the ring. But he was a weakling compared to the Jeffries of old. He is a terrific hitter, a clever blocker, and one of the most dangerous aggressive fighters the ring has ever seen.

[mr. magoo]

Interesting stuff. Thanks McGrain.

The tone of the testimony does come accross as being pretty sincere, and I don't think Fitz had anything to gain from being untruthful.

[mcvey]

Jeffries was not there. He looked great. I never saw him looking better; but he left his vitality on the road. He worked himself out training for thisi fight and when he got into the ring it was without his vim.

He wasn't even a quarter of the man he was when he went against me. It was the most pitiful sight I have ever seen to see that man, once the greatest of us all, lying feebly on the floor trying weakly to get up. I felt so sorry at the spectacle that I cried like a baby. I felt like leaping into the ring. If I Johnson had met the Jeffries I had met there would have been a different story to tell. But there's no use in speaking as to what might have happened. It is all over now.

In the first round I thought Jeffries had the shade better of it but he did not display the aggression I expected of him. I thought he would rush Johnson. The second and third rounds were about the same and I kept waiting for Jeffries to display his old tactics, the irresistable tactics that beat me. After the fourth, I realised that Jeffries was not Jeffries any longer.

As far as Johnson is concerned, I say, the king is dead, long live the king. He is a big, strong, clean fighter with a powerful punch. He is one of the cleverest fighters we ever had. I used to think he was only a defensive fighter. He showed today he was an offensive fighter. When he wants to be he can be terribly aggressive. I believe that if he had forced the fighting it would not have gone further than the fourth.

But Johnson works along his own plans. He fought a clever, cool and masterly battle. He made me change my opinion of him as a fighter.

I don't think there is a man in the wolrd that would have a chance against Johnson in the ring. But he was a weakling compared to the Jeffries of old. He is a terrific hitter, a clever blocker, and one of the most dangerous aggressive fighters the ring has ever seen.

Very intruiging post Mac, especially Fitz's opinion that Jack could have ended it early ,I tend to agree with this. Suprised to see Fitz rated Johnson's power that highly, but he was there, I wasn't.
Of course Jeffries was the original" hollow shell" in this fight,prime for prime it would have been a battle, imo.

[McGrain]

Various small stories that appear in the press in the following days:

WHITE MEN SHOOT TWO NEGROES IN NEW ORLEANS

James Lee and Emil Thompson, two negroes, were shot and seriously wounded by two white men here last night. The white men approached with the decleration, "Johnson won, but we'll get even with all n*ggers." They then began to fire.

Leen and Thompson will recover.





JOHNSON'S MOTHER SAYS HE WILL RETIRE FROM RING

Tiny Johnson, mother of Jack Johnson, announced late today that the champion would retire immediatly. "Arthur told me positively that he would whip Jeffries and remove all possibility of the slightest dispute, then quit fighting. He promised me. He said he would quit so I believe he will."




ONE HUNDRED WHITE AND BLACK RIOTERS IN COURT [Philadelphia]

More than 100 whites and blacks appeared in front of the magistrate today, many of them wearing bandages and other evidences of the affray which followed Johnson's victory in Reno. As a rule disturbers of the peace were released with a fine, but those more seriously involved in the riots were held in jail for short sentences.

It was a wild night amongst the rought element of the coloured neighbourhood but no-one was seriously hurt either in rioting or in the hilarios celebrations.

The trouble was not confined to any given part of the city, fights breaking out nearly everywhere.

[he grant]

GReat piece. Where was it from ?

[McGrain]

I think it was in The San Francisco Call.

[timmers612]

It reminds me of Ali, slimmed down, as a shell also against Holmes.

[dpw417]

Great find. Thanks for posting.

[HomicideHenry]

Many of the old-timers, black and white, honestly believed that Johnson stood little chance against Jeffries. Langford, who dodged Jeffries in his prime, still held on to the view that if Jeffries was even half the man he was in his prime, he'd still been able to defeat Johnson. Jess Willard, in the 1960's, claimed that Jeffries would have beaten Johnson H2H in their primes. It wasnt just Fitzsimmon's opinion, or even public opinion/hope, there was an honest belief that Johnson would lose. It must have been terrifying, truly stunning, to audiences across the world that Jeffries lost to Johnson.

[Flea Man]

Fascinating thread McGrain, and savage new avatar :lol:

Going to Thailand in April and there is a place where there are shitloads of Bengal Tigers AND Alligators and Crocodiles..............I was thinking the other day 'whom would I make favourite'? Your avi has put a spanner in the works :lol:

[mcvey]

Many of the old-timers, black and white, honestly believed that Johnson stood little chance against Jeffries. Langford, who dodged Jeffries in his prime, still held on to the view that if Jeffries was even half the man he was in his prime, he'd still been able to defeat Johnson. Jess Willard, in the 1960's, claimed that Jeffries would have beaten Johnson H2H in their primes. It wasnt just Fitzsimmon's opinion, or even public opinion/hope, there was an honest belief that Johnson would lose. It must have been terrifying, truly stunning, to audiences across the world that Jeffries lost to Johnson.

When Jeffries retired in 1905,Langford weighed 150lbs,he was fighting lightweights like Dave Holly,Young Peter Jackson, George McFadden,and Jack Blackburn..taking on Joe Jeanette he was stopped in 8rds..
As late as 1906 he only weighed 156lbs for a bout with the 185lbs Jack Johnson,a fight in which he got a shellacking being dropped twice and having his nose broke.
Is it surprising that the 5' 7'' 150lbs Langford did not want to mix it with the 6' 2 1/2'' 220lbs Jeffries ?

[HomicideHenry]

Langford fought taller, heavier men than Jeffries, like Bill Tate on a regular basis. It wasnt a matter of size, it was a matter of ability. Langford didn't have the ability to stop Jeffries.

[mcvey]

Langford fought taller, heavier men than Jeffries, like Bill Tate on a regular basis. It wasnt a matter of size, it was a matter of ability. Langford didn't have the ability to stop Jeffries.

Langford didnt fight Tate until 1916 ELEVEN YEARS AFTER Jeffries had retired.Langford scaled 198lbs to Tate's 226lbs.Sam didn't get taller ,he just got fatter.
By the way it was a draw.Tate was a sparring partner for Dempsey and NEVER top flight.
Langford was NOT a true heavyweight and lost as often as he won against the top ranking heavies.
In 1905 it ,WAS A MATTER OF SIZE.
Langford had as much ability as Jeffries, in fact I think he had considerably MORE.

[Mendoza]

When Jeffries retired in 1905,Langford weighed 150lbs,he was fighting lightweights like Dave Holly,Young Peter Jackson, George McFadden,and Jack Blackburn..taking on Joe Jeanette he was stopped in 8rds..
As late as 1906 he only weighed 156lbs for a bout with the 185lbs Jack Johnson,a fight in which he got a shellacking being dropped twice and having his nose broke.
Is it surprising that the 5' 7'' 150lbs Langford did not want to mix it with the 6' 2 1/2'' 220lbs Jeffries ?


Correct. Sam in those days had limited experience at heavyweight, and had not developed into his 170-185 pound " boston terror " body.

I do agree with Fitzsimmons that Jeffries woudl have won in a 1905-1906 match. I also agree with Fitz that Johnson was an improved fighter by 1910.

Most of the top fighters, including Johnson himself said Jeffries was the greatest.

[McGrain]

From what I can pick up Jeffries was thought of more highly than Sullivan. In fact that deserves it's own thread.

[Minotauro]

Interesting read.

[guilalah]

Thanks, McGrain. Fitz certainly regarded the prime Jeffries as a phenom; yet he also had a high regard for Johnson. In fact, I would say Bob's opinion -- despite favoring Jeffries at his best -- fortifies my own regard for Johnson.

[mcvey]

Correct. Sam in those days had limited experience at heavyweight, and had not developed into his 170-185 pound " boston terror " body.

I do agree with Fitzsimmons that Jeffries woudl have won in a 1905-1906 match. I also agree with Fitz that Johnson was an improved fighter by 1910.

Most of the top fighters, including Johnson himself said Jeffries was the greatest.

Maybe this New Year ,we can agree to disagree on crucial points?
After all, we all have our favourites,and, possibly our blind spots?

[Mendoza]

Maybe this New Year ,we can agree to disagree on crucial points?
After all, we all have our favourites,and, possibly our blind spots?

My hunch is we will agreed to disagree a bit less in 2010. Read Adam;'s book, and you might stat agreeing with me on a few of the sticky points that have been debated in 2008-2009.

[McGrain]

Maybe this New Year ,we can agree to disagree on crucial points?

My hunch is we will agreed to disagree a bit less in 2010.

:lol:

Never. Fucking. Happen.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mcvey]

:lol:

Never. Fucking. Happen.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Mac, I hope they don't call upon you to broker the peace process in Afghanistan :lol:

[he grant]

Langford did not duck Jeffries as he never had even a remote shot t a fight with him and their careers did not overlap ... in 05 Langford was still fighting mostly middleweights ... Sam's "fight any heavyweight but Jeffris " was more a PR scam by management than anything else. BY 1910 Langford would have gioven his right nut to fight Jeffries and would have stopped him in a few rounds ...

[Mendoza]

:lol:

Never. Fucking. Happen.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Never say never.

[janitor]

One think that I think Fitzsimmons is right about is that Jeffries punishing training schedule hurt his performence.

He would probably have done better if he had come to the fight 20+lbs overweight.

[Mendoza]

One think that I think Fitzsimmons is right about is that Jeffries punishing training schedule hurt his performence.

He would probably have done better if he had come to the fight 20+lbs overweight.

Jeffries would have done better if he had a warm up fight, and sparred with the contenders of the time, not an ancient Corbett and Bob Armstrong.

Jeffries had a falling with his chief trainer, Billy Delaney. Delaney knew Jeffries well, and was hired to be in Johnson's corner. The advice Delaney must have been significant.

The change in venue from California to the desert in Reno hurt Jeffries chances too.

[mcvey]

Jeffries would have done better if he had a warm up fight, and sparred with the contenders of the time, not an ancient Corbett and Bob Armstrong.

Jeffries had a falling with his chief trainer, Billy Delaney. Delaney knew Jeffries well, and was hired to be in Johnson's corner. The advice Delaney must have been significant.

The change in venue from California to the desert in Reno hurt Jeffries chances too.

It certainly did ,as there was a very strong rumour that the fight was bagged for Jeffries in California.

[mcvey]

One think that I think Fitzsimmons is right about is that Jeffries punishing training schedule hurt his performence.

He would probably have done better if he had come to the fight 20+lbs overweight.

Johnson referring to Dempsey's first fight against Tunney remarked.

"Dempsey was overtrained he had attempted to accomplish in a month or so,what should have been attained over a period three times as long."

"He had long been out of the ring,and had engaged in occupations so vastly different than those that contribute to a fighters form,that it was a tremendous task to get him into such condition as was necessary for a contest."

"His training had been intensive.Over zealous trainers tried to restore to him all that had been lost in the month's of ring idleness,and neglect of training."

An overtrained athlete ,is as sorry a sight as an undertrained one,because he does not understand his own condition.He feels fresh ,and vigorous,but therein he is tragically fooled, because he lacks the co-ordination of nerve and muscle and brain,and unfortunately never realizes that something is wrong with him until he tries to acheive that which he most desires".

Jeffries probably tried to round himself into shape too quickly .
The drums of promotion had reached their crescendo ,and the optimum moment for financial reward was insight.Jeffries was denied the luxury of a tune up,had no real tough sparring and entered the ring with his mind distracted ,his stamina severely diminshed,and with enormous pressure weighing on his shoulders from the white establishment .
Add to this the tremendous weight loss he had committed himself to acheiving, and it can be seen that while outwardly he was still," The Iron Man", in reality he was a facsimile .Ali against Holmes.
In contrast Johnson was in the condition of his life.

[Boilermaker]

Johnson referring to Dempsey's first fight against Tunney remarked.

"Dempsey was overtrained he had attempted to accomplish in a month or so,what should have been attained over a period three times as long."

"He had long been out of the ring,and had engaged in occupations so vastly different than those that contribute to a fighters form,that it was a tremendous task to get him into such condition as was necessary for a contest."

"His training had been intensive.Over zealous trainers tried to restore to him all that had been lost in the month's of ring idleness,and neglect of training."

An overtrained athlete ,is as sorry a sight as an undertrained one,because he does not understand his own condition.He feels fresh ,and vigorous,but therein he is tragically fooled, because he lacks the co-ordination of nerve and muscle and brain,and unfortunately never realizes that something is wrong with him until he tries to acheive that which he most desires".

Jeffries probably tried to round himself into shape too quickly .
The drums of promotion had reached their crescendo ,and the optimum moment for financial reward was insight.Jeffries was denied the luxury of a tune up,had no real tough sparring and entered the ring with his mind distracted ,his stamina severely diminshed,and with enormous pressure weighing on his shoulders from the white establishment .
Add to this the tremendous weight loss he had committed himself to acheiving, and it can be seen that while outwardly he was still," The Iron Man", in reality he was a facsimile .Ali against Holmes.
In contrast Johnson was in the condition of his life.


Maybe Jeffries took a dive?

[mcvey]

Maybe Jeffries took a dive?

No Jeffries took a hiding
If a dive was arranged, it was for Jack to go into the tank, if the fight had been held in California.

[Mendoza]

No Jeffries took a hiding
.If a dive was aranged it was for Jack to go into the tank if the fight had been held in California.

If Jeffries was indeed told Johnson would take a dive and believed it, that would really hurt his chances once he figured out that Johnson was not going to lie down. After all, if your sure the other guy is going to tank it, why train so hard?

I don't believe the dive story was legit. The fight was moved out of California because it was political dynamite. In fact promoter Tex Rickard had to be the ref because other refused. Reno was a small desert town with rail road access. It was a sub location because Rickard had to come up with one quick. As history records there were several riots after the fight ended. This is why California said no match here.

What might have hurt Jeffries most was his father saying he'd would disown his son if he took the fight.

[Seamus]

Wasn't it Ketchell who had thought of entering the ring before the fight and sucker-punching Jeffries so that the fight would not take place? Thus was his estimation of Jeffries remaining abilities.

[mcvey]

If Jeffries was indeed told Johnson would take a dive and believed it, that would really hurt his chances once he figured out that Johnson was not going to lie down. After all, if your sure the other guy is going to tank it, why train so hard?

I don't believe the dive story was legit. The fight was moved out of California because it was political dynamite. In fact promoter Tex Rickard had to be the ref because other refused. Reno was a small desert town with rail road access. It was a sub location because Rickard had to come up with one quick. As history records there were several riots after the fight ended. This is why California said no match here.

What might have hurt Jeffries most was his father saying he'd would disown his son if he took the fight.

Gunboat Smith said, that Johnson drove out to Jeffries training camp . just prior to the fight and said," this isnt California ,every man for himself".
What credence you place on it is up to you. If true ,neither participant comes out of it smelling of roses.
San Francisco was the original site for the fight.Religious and business objections cancelled that.
Reno ,Goldfield,and Salt Lake City all bid for it,Rickard chose Reno ,because of the railroad facilities,and because the Mayor assured him that a 22,000 seat stadium could be built within the two weeks before the fight was to take place.
Rickard had allready sold $133,000 worth of tickets.behind the scenes,Governor Dickerson ,assured Rickard that no reform movement had any power in Nevada ,and, that the fight was safe there .

[guilalah]

Wanted to bring up this post again, to see if any newer forum members had any comments on Johnson's statements (which I thought fairly appreciative of Johnson, aside from thinking that prime Jeff' would do him up in two -- that's a bit far out, and I'm a Jeffries fan).