After watching the Taylor/Pavlik fight for a second time...

[bachatu]

These are my conclusions:

1. Taylors defense was worse from the beginning of the fight than what I originally had thought - He took way too many shots from the beginning. Any observer would be able to tell from the beginning, that by having that left so low, Taylor was asking for trouble that eventually caught up.

2. He lost more rounds than what I had scored originally. I gave him the 2nd, 5th & 6th (questionably).

3. Pavlik got caught in the 2nd for his stupidity of keeping his chin out & hands down for lack of respect of Taylor's power; after that round, he kept his hands up consistently.

4. With that said, Taylor could have taken this guy out in the 2nd round. He didn't press on hard enough and gassed himself in the round it seems... poor stamina for someone so young & who trained so hard & long for this bout.

5. Taylor was too close to Pavlik from the beginning and was only going backwards, instead of circling to his left.

6. Taylor made the mistake of allowing Pavlik to throw punches first & try to counter. While this was effective 30% of the time, it also resulted in him getting hit by Pavlik jabs and right hands due to his poor defense (see item #1)

7. Observing end of round 6, looking at JT walk to his corner, he seemed like he just completed a gym workout and was ready to go home. which leads up to the next point

8. Round 7 he ate jabs like he was on a Jabkins diet & he looked like a walking corpse ready to take a fall any second. His movement in rounds 6 & 7 reminded me of a mummy, as he really looked gassed, especially in round 7.

9. JT was way to tense early in the fight. He seemed like a nervous fighter. If I didn't know who the champion was, I would have thought it was Pavlik; he was calm, cool, more confident, & kept his composure and adjusted in the fight, whereas Jermaine went from bad to worse.

10. Besides that 2nd round, Pavlik didn't really seem get hurt by JT's punches.. at the same time, he did a good job of blocking some of them. Pavlik looked goofy at times (irrelevant) and slow (releveant) with some of his punches, but he was consistent throughout and used better technique than Taylor & was able to capitalize on Taylor's mistakes better than Taylor on his. I think this is partly is because he had some less obvious mistakes.

The way JT got ko'd looked pretty bad in the end. He seemed exhausted both physically and mentally and I really do hope but wonder he can come back from this. I wonder if 160lbs suits him, because he seemed to have severe stamina issues in this fight, dispite training properly for this fight.

This raises another question-Will or should Emanuel be in his corner for the next fight? I have come to the conclusion that Emanuel does not connect well with Jermaine Taylor as a fighter. For some reason, his words of advice do not impact or connect with the younger cub the way it should. Also, in this fight, Emanuel reacted way too cool and laid back while Jermaine was making his mistakes from the beginning.

I didn't see a much improved Pavlik, but instead I saw the same Pavlik that fought Miranda and Zertuche. He needs some improving to do as well, though I admit not as much as Taylor... The improvements I think he should make are, but are not limited to, getting some better speed behind his punches, get more pop behind his jabs, & try to vary some of his punches punches (hooks etc) behind a left jab.

What are you guys' thought? for those who got to see the fight more than once.

This fight was an example of how mistakes can cost you a fight, just like in other sports, teams loose by mistakes. For example, turnovers in Football & errors in Baseball. In this case, Pavlik almost lost because of his own mistake in the second round & JT due to various mistakes throughout the bout which eventually caught up. With mistakes costing both fighters something, Jermaine being the bigger spender of the two, purchased himself a 7th round ko.

[Jose FM]

These are my conclusions:

1. Taylors defense was worse from the beginning of the fight than what I originally had thought - He took way too many shots from the beginning. Any observer would be able to tell from the beginning, that by having that left so low, Taylor was asking for trouble that eventually caught up.

2. He lost more rounds than what I had scored originally. I gave him the 2nd, 5th & 6th (questionably).

3. Pavlik got caught in the 2nd for his stupidity of keeping his chin out & hands down for lack of respect of Taylor's power; after that round, he kept his hands up consistently.

4. With that said, Taylor could have taken this guy out in the 2nd round. He didn't press on hard enough and gassed himself in the round it seems... poor stamina for someone so young & who trained so hard & long for this bout.

5. Taylor was too close to Pavlik from the beginning and was only going backwards, instead of circling to his left.

6. Taylor made the mistake of allowing Pavlik to throw punches first & try to counter. While this was effective 30% of the time, it also resulted in him getting hit by Pavlik jabs and right hands due to his poor defense (see item #1)

7. Observing end of round 6, looking at JT walk to his corner, he seemed like he just completed a gym workout and was ready to go home. which leads up to the next point

8. Round 7 he ate jabs like he was on a Jabkins diet & he looked like a walking corpse ready to take a fall any second. His movement in rounds 6 & 7 reminded me of a mummy, as he really looked gassed, especially in round 7.

9. JT was way to tense early in the fight. He seemed like a nervous fighter. If I didn't know who the champion was, I would have thought it was Pavlik; he was calm, cool, more confident, & kept his composure and adjusted in the fight, whereas Jermaine went from bad to worse.

10. Besides that 2nd round, Pavlik didn't really seem that hurt by JT's punches.. at the same time, he did a good job of blocking some of them. Pavlik looked goofy at times and slow with some of his punches, but he was consistent throughout and used better technique than Taylor & was able to capitalize on Taylor's mistakes better than Taylor on his. Partly is because I think he had some less obvious mistakes.

The way JT got ko'd looked pretty bad in the end. he seemed exhausted both physically and mentally and I really do hope but wonder he can come back from this. I wonder if 160lbs suits him, because he seemed to have severe stamina issues in this fight, dispite training properly for this fight.

This raises another question--Will Emmanuel be in his corner for the next fight. I have come to the conclusion that Emmanuel does not connect well with Jermaine Taylor as a fighter. For some reason, his words of advice do not go through, and at the same time, he reacted too cool and laid back while Jermaine was making his mistakes from the beginning.

I didn't see an improved Pavlik; I saw the same Pavlik that fought Miranda and Zertuche. He needs some improving to do as well ( not as much as Taylor )... get some better speed behind his punches and get more pop behind his jabs & try to throw more variety of punches (hooks etc) behind a left jab.

What are you guys' thought? for those who got to see the fight more than once.

This fight was an example of how mistakes can cost you a fight... Pavlik almost lost because of his own mistake in the second & JT due to various mistakes throughout which caught up. Just as in other sports, teams loose by mistakes...... turnovers ( in Football) or by errors (baseball). With mistakes costing both fighters something, Jermaine being the bigger spender of the two, purchased himself a 7th round ko.
He made all those mistakes in all his other fights... Nothings changed, thats why him and Dibella were avioding punchers cause they knew he would eventually get caught.
As to what you say bout Pavlik. Why would he need to change anything? I mean he has his flaws, but he finishes what he starts and is very adaptable when he has to mix it up.

[JETSKI]

Good analysis, except I kinda disagree about Pavlik having to add more variety to his punches. He throws a good amount of variety & just how much pop do you want him to get on his shots? He knows when to load up on a punch & that spells the beginning of the end for opponents.

Heres the fight for anyone who hasn't seen this war...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[achillesthegreat]

Taylor defence is the same as ALWAYS, its Kellys offence that made it look worse. Taylor always moves about, moves his head, keeps his hands low and eats shots. Pavlik is the first to make him pay. Wright did as well but Wright is a light hitter.

What you see is what you get with Kelly.

A big, strong, powerful, slow and relentless machine. He can box BUT his mentality is different. Kelly has every text book punch and can hit with any of them. He has a good sense of timing and range. He throws 70 to 100 punches a round and will wail on you until you yield.

He reminds me of Alexis Arguello.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[JETSKI]

Taylor defence is the same as ALWAYS, its Kellys offence that made it look worse. Taylor always moves about, moves his head, keeps his hands low and eats shots. Pavlik is the first to make him pay. Wright did as well but Wright is a light hitter.

What you see is what you get with Kelly.

A big, strong, powerful, slow and relentless machine. He can box BUT his mentality is different. Kelly has every text book punch and can hit with any of them. He has a good sense of timing and range. He throws 70 to 100 punches a round and will wail on you until you yield.

He reminds me of Alexis Arguello.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

achillesthegreat, I really agree with your comments about what happen in this fight & not just this post, but all your others that I've read. I don't recall if you were a Pavlik fan before the fight & didn't you possibly even pick Taylor to win?

BTW...((((((((((((((((GO HATTON)))))))))))))))))))))

:good

[buddynabuick]

Good analysis, except I kinda disagree about Pavlik having to add more variety to his punches. He throws a good amount of variety & just how much pop do you want him to get on his shots? He knows when to load up on a punch & that spells the beginning of the end for opponents.

Heres the fight for anyone who hasn't seen this war...

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
eo.html ([Only registered and activated users can see links])


Thanks JETSKI:good I am going 2 watch it right now

[bachatu]

achillesthegreat, I really agree with your comments about what happen in this fight & not just this post, but all your others that I've read. I don't recall if you were a Pavlik fan before the fight & didn't you possibly even pick Taylor to win?

BTW...((((((((((((((((GO HATTON)))))))))))))))))))))

:good
Well I've liked Pavlik from seeing fight before, he has a style thats hard not to like, but I like Taylor also and was rooting for him (I like rooting for underdogs) & thought people were counting him out way too quick without giving him much chances of anything. Objectively, I picked Taylor to win because I had faith that he would fix some of these known errors he and his camped talked about fixing in training, but I never counted Pavlik out. For example, look at the second Sam Peter vs Toney fight. Sam made many small adjustments in his fighting to win. Well this is a bit different cause he already had fougth and seen Toney, one thing is to watch the tapes and another is to be in there fighting the guy.

This brings another possibility...if jermaine rematches pavlik, will he be able to make adjustments in a second fight like Peter did against Toney? mmm questionable. If I recall, Toney didn't make any adjustments for Peter dispite him saying he didnt want to do certain things over again.




He made all those mistakes in all his other fights... Nothings changed, thats why him and Dibella were avioding punchers cause they knew he would eventually get caught.
As to what you say bout Pavlik. Why would he need to change anything? I mean he has his flaws, but he finishes what he starts and is very adaptable when he has to mix it up.

Regarding changes Pavlik needs to make-He doesn't need to change the style in which he fights necessarily, but sharpen what he does well. He throws a jab, but he can improve it. And regarding his combinations, I think he does throw combinations, but he tends to repeat them when he fights in center of the ring. he would be more effective if he could improve speed on his punches & also throw more varied combinations, not just the same 1-2s. For example, he did this at times, where he went to the body, but he needs to do more of this.... In other words, he was predictable at times and allowed Jermaine to slip some of his punches with his hands down. But, imagine if he were to be fighting a crafty guy like Hopkins or someone else with a good defense, alot of shots would be blocked. I think learning to throw more varied combinations will allow him to not be so predictable. Think of how Cotto hunts down and kills boxers; he finds ways of connecting.

[Shake]

It's a very comprehensive list for something that, in my opinion, is much simpler -- Jermain Taylor lacked composure and was tense. It was visible just by looking at hm, and it accounts for the (too wild) flurries he desperately tried to end the fight with in the second as well as gassing out afterwards.

Pavlk cannot change into what you want him to be -- if he could be faster, he would be. He is what he is -- although defense and movement could be polished, he won't change much from this point to retirement. His game is pressure, power and determination.

As for Manny Steward -- I personally think Taylor is hard to work with. He seems to have the natural physical talent as well as the drive, but his mental game is sub-par. I think it's pretty frustrating for Manny, too.

[Jose FM]

Regarding changes Pavlik needs to make-He doesn't need to change the style in which he fights necessarily, but sharpen what he does well. He throws a jab, but he can improve it. And regarding his combinations, I think he does throw combinations, but he tends to repeat them when he fights in center of the ring. he would be more effective if he could improve speed on his punches & also throw more varied combinations, not just the same 1-2s. For example, he did this at times, where he went to the body, but he needs to do more of this.... In other words, he was predictable at times and allowed Jermaine to slip some of his punches with his hands down. But, imagine if he were to be fighting a crafty guy like Hopkins or someone else with a good defense, alot of shots would be blocked. I think learning to throw more varied combinations will allow him to not be so predictable. Think of how Cotto hunts down and kills boxers; he finds ways of connecting.
When talking about Pavlik you gotta remember that hes 6'2 and lanky, he throws combos very well when inside and given space and thats how he finishes his opponents like he did Jermain, he fights off the jab and sets up his killer right hand. He has demolished all of his competition and i dont see why he would change what has made him so succesful. In regards to fighting a more defensive fighter like Hopkins, i just dont see Hopkins or Wright giving Pavlik any problems at all, cause Pavlik is a workhorse, and if you think about it that the reason why Jermain beat Hopkins, cause he had youth on his side. Pavlik outworks Hopkins, and breaks Winky's hand right through the peepkaboo. The fact is that Pavlik is Pavlik and hes the unified MW champ, he got here doingwhat he does best, hes 25 and there will be improvement but to completely abandan what got him where hes would be useless.

[bachatu]

When talking about Pavlik you gotta remember that hes 6'2 and lanky, he throws combos very well when inside and given space and thats how he finishes his opponents like he did Jermain, he fights off the jab and sets up his killer right hand. He has demolished all of his competition and i dont see why he would change what has made him so succesful. In regards to fighting a more defensive fighter like Hopkins, i just dont see Hopkins or Wright giving Pavlik any problems at all, cause Pavlik is a workhorse, and if you think about it that the reason why Jermain beat Hopkins, cause he had youth on his side. Pavlik outworks Hopkins, and breaks Winky's hand right through the peepkaboo. The fact is that Pavlik is Pavlik and hes the unified MW champ, he got here doingwhat he does best, hes 25 and there will be improvement but to completely abandan what got him where hes would be useless.

I dont want to convert this thread on a who vs Pavlik would win or wouldnt. He is the champion yes, but he can still improve and sharpen certain things he does well, into better. I will say it again, Im not saying to change his style, but do little things here and there to make him better for the long run. Unless you believe he is perfect? I hope not, and from reading others opinions on this board, others will agree he is far from perfect. If he wants to be successful at defending his belt & plans on reigning for a long time, he will need to improve, because not everybody he faces will be old or have a bad defense or no offense.

And by the way, some of the things that gave Hopkins problems with Jermain was Jermaines hand speed & explosiveness. Pavliks fighting style is different in that its more predictable...something that would allow a guy like B-Hop ways of avoiding his hard shots.

[booklord]

This brings another possibility...if jermaine rematches pavlik, will he be able to make adjustments in a second fight like Peter did against Toney? mmm questionable. If I recall, Toney didn't make any adjustments for Peter dispite him saying he didnt want to do certain things over again.

Well they can get a light heavyweight sparring partner whose taller and has a greater reach than Taylor, and him jab Taylor until he figures out how to block it. But Taylor's most glaring problem is his stanima. That's going to be a tough cookie to fix. Running out of gas by the 7th round is BAD.

Worse for Taylor is that Pavlik's problems are easier to fix. He's unlikely ever to be that careless again with Taylor and his defense will likely be better for the next fight. He also knows that Taylor has the hand speed and power to fight his way out of the corner if he gets too close, so he'll use with jab and straight rights to keep at a "safe" distance.

[Fab2333]

It's a very comprehensive list for something that, in my opinion, is much simpler -- Jermain Taylor lacked composure and was tense. It was visible just by looking at hm, and it accounts for the (too wild) flurries he desperately tried to end the fight with in the second as well as gassing out afterwards.

Pavlk cannot change into what you want him to be -- if he could be faster, he would be. He is what he is -- although defense and movement could be polished, he won't change much from this point to retirement. His game is pressure, power and determination.

As for Manny Steward -- I personally think Taylor is hard to work with. He seems to have the natural physical talent as well as the drive, but his mental game is sub-par. I think it's pretty frustrating for Manny, too.
yup prety much, I picked taylor to win, and I will admit I was wrong. Congrats to pavlik, but taylor will never win against fighters who pose a challenge 2 him if he doesnt get his boxing iq better. and thats wat seperates fighter with talent from elite fighters. and until he gets his mid right he will never be an "elite" fighter

[bachatu]

yup prety much, I picked taylor to win, and I will admit I was wrong. Congrats to pavlik, but taylor will never win against fighters who pose a challenge 2 him if he doesnt get his boxing iq better. and thats wat seperates fighter with talent from elite fighters. and until he gets his mid right he will never be an "elite" fighter
I agree, he needs to increase his boxing intelligence. THere are basic things he needs to learn how to do but also other important things like learning how to set & control a tempo in the fight. In observing his past fights, it seems he has let the other guys set tempos.

Booklord-his stamina really concerns me as well. That is a huge factor, especially a guy like Pavlik. I've seen him fight at a faster pace than what he did with Jermaine that night and go more rounds without looking gassed and finishing guys, so stamina improvement would be vital. I personally find it to believe that he would be getting old at this point and that he is past his prime. Thats why i questioned on whether he would be better suited at 168lbs. Maybe 160 is taking too much out of him, despite having a smaller frame than Pavlik. I for istance, am about 6'1 and got to 190lbs at one point in my life and felt like a walking corpes at that weight. I would exercise and eat properly (5-6 times a day) do cardio, etc. But my ideal weight for me is 205. I don't have a freaken clue how in the hell someone can get to 160lbs at 6'1.

[Fab2333]

I agree, he needs to increase his boxing intelligence. THere are basic things he needs to learn how to do but also other important things like learning how to set & control a tempo in the fight. In observing his past fights, it seems he has let the other guys set tempos.

Booklord-his stamina really concerns me as well. That is a huge factor, especially a guy like Pavlik. I've seen him fight at a faster pace than what he did with Jermaine that night and go more rounds without looking gassed and finishing guys, so stamina improvement would be vital. I personally find it to believe that he would be getting old at this point and that he is past his prime. Thats why i questioned on whether he would be better suited at 168lbs. Maybe 160 is taking too much out of him, despite having a smaller frame than Pavlik. I for istance, am about 6'1 and could got to 190lbs and felt like a walking corpes at that weight. I would exercise and eat properly (5-6 times a day) do cardio, etc. But my ideal weight for me is 205. I don't have a freaken clue how in the hell someone can get to 160lbs at 6'1.

me neither, but you can do it, your just gonna put ya body through a lot of work. Thing with Jermain is that he been fighting at the weight for a long time, and he never lets his weight fluctuate too much to the point where it would b impossible to come back to 160. But i do agree I think him fighting at 160 is hurting him stamina wise. And as far as his boxing iq it stinks. What he should have done when he had pavlik hurt in that 2nd round is instead of waisting punches, all he had to do was keep popping pavlik with his jab b/c if your hurt and you get hit regardless of what you get hit with jab or str8 its still gonna keep you dizzy. All he had to do was continue to do that, test his body to make sure his legs was finished and then came uptop when pavlik was tryin 2 guard low, he had adequate time to do that. And thats all he had 2 do. and fight woulda been over, but jermain as usuak just throwing wild wasting shots tired himself out, and in the end it cost him

[C Money]

Pavlik definitely showed improvement:yep

His jab was fucking beatiful and other than getting careless in round 2, he showed more defensive movement and patience in setting up his attack.:good

Great fight and both men deserve credit:hey

[Fab2333]

Pavlik definitely showed improvement:yep

His jab was fucking beatiful and other than getting careless in round 2, he showed more defensive movement and patience in setting up his attack.:good

Great fight and both men deserve credit:hey
i can agree with that:good
but just remember power will only carry you to a point, somewhere along the ling his defense will have to get better or its bye bye Kelly

[C Money]

i can agree with that:good
but just remember power will only carry you to a point, somewhere along the ling his defense will have to get better or its bye bye Kelly

It was improved against Taylor. I agree he'll need to continue that work going forward.

[o_money]

i can agree with that:good
but just remember power will only carry you to a point, somewhere along the ling his defense will have to get better or its bye bye Kelly


I think he needs to focus more of just not getting sloppy. He has a good jab when he throws it. but there were times the other night when he would throw a couple of lazy one and get timed. it happened throughout most of the fight. In the press conference afterwards he said something about this being down to stupidity at first and fatigue in the last half of the fight.

but eitherway if he tightened a few things up he would be pretty unstoppable.

[rodney]

Good analysis.
Pavlik will get better yet.

[TitoCotto]

Bachatu those were some very good points and I enjoyed reading your post. In regards to the stamina issue with Taylor, he looked like he was in tremendous shape coming into the fight… The main issue here is the mental aspect of the fighters when they got in the ring. Jermain looked tense from the start, his punches were quick but they looked tight. No matter how good of shape you’re in… when you come into a fight like that your going to wear out very quickly. I really don’t think it was a stamina issue but the mental side. Jermain also looked very tense in the fights with Hopkins, it’s just that Bernard doesn’t throw enough punches and doesn’t pressure like he used to.

Pavlik on the other hand looked very loose. He has the ability to throw combinations very smoothly and with power… when you stay relaxed like that (mentally and physically) you are going to keep that power throughout the fight. Pavlik is extremely good at this.

Also, I think the idea of Pavlik being one dimensional and slow is one of the reasons his opponents get in so much trouble (Not necessarily in this forum but I have been reading it alot on this site). What a mistake! I know Jermain looked quicker, but he has some of the quickest reflexes in the sport, and I saw multiple times where Pavlik beat Taylor to the punch. No he is not super quick, but by NO means would I call him slow.

One Dimensional? I saw him throw a jab, straight right hand, mentally recognize he had hurt Jermain and then throw a great combination that included two ridiculous uppercuts with both hands and a left hook that pretty much knocked him cold.

Calling Pavlik slow and one dimensional is just hating.

[JETSKI]

Bachatu those were some very good points and I enjoyed reading your post. In regards to the stamina issue with Taylor, he looked like he was in tremendous shape coming into the fight… The main issue here is the mental aspect of the fighters when they got in the ring. Jermain looked tense from the start, his punches were quick but they looked tight. No matter how good of shape you’re in… when you come into a fight like that your going to wear out very quickly. I really don’t think it was a stamina issue but the mental side. Jermain also looked very tense in the fights with Hopkins, it’s just that Bernard doesn’t throw enough punches and doesn’t pressure like he used to.

Pavlik on the other hand looked very loose. He has the ability to throw combinations very smoothly and with power… when you stay relaxed like that (mentally and physically) you are going to keep that power throughout the fight. Pavlik is extremely good at this.

Also, I think the idea of Pavlik being one dimensional and slow is one of the reasons his opponents get in so much trouble (Not necessarily in this forum but I have been reading it alot on this site). What a mistake! I know Jermain looked quicker, but he has some of the quickest reflexes in the sport, and I saw multiple times where Pavlik beat Taylor to the punch. No he is not super quick, but by NO means would I call him slow.

One Dimensional? I saw him throw a jab, straight right hand, mentally recognize he had hurt Jermain and then throw a great combination that included two ridiculous uppercuts with both hands and a left hook that pretty much knocked him cold.

Calling Pavlik slow and one dimensional is just hating.

They can say what they want. Kelly won the title utilizing the tools that got him this far. He's not the total package, but he's not far from being a complete fighter that has yet to lose & hopefully can keep this ball rolling.