Rocky Marciano -vs- Floyd Patterson

[Holmes' Jab]

Who takes it, prime for prime? Let's say 12 rounds. :think

[rydersonthestorm]

The rock smokes the elusive patterson early, with his superior punching power and chin.

[McGrain]

I think you have to imagine Rocky cracking Patterson a beauty at some point and getting him out of there whilst behind on the cards.

Marciano probably punhed in the same class as the other big-hitting heavyweights and I don't see Patterson surrviving any of those guys, if i'm honest.

[redrooster]

Rocky by brutal kayo. one of those leonard-green or Jackson-graham types

[Holmes' Jab]

Patterson, by close UD. :good





*ducks for cover*

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano would not need to find Patterson. He be right there brawling with Marciano.

[McGrain]

Patterson, by close UD. :good

OK. Let's hear a little bit about why?





*ducks for cover*

Patterson is a curious fighter and he's also a fighter that seems to have varying degrees of respect on the boards (like Shcmeling). I disagree but I don't think it's a ludicrous opinion.

Put it this way, on fight night there would be plenty of "experts" picking Patterson, esepcially pre-Liston.

[brooklyn1550]

Marciano by TKO

[Holmes' Jab]

Patterson was very fast in his prime, had great handspeed, footwork and very good skills to go with that speed as well as guile and agility.

I don't think Marciano would intimidate Patterson like Liston did and (unlike Liston) he'd actually be the smaller guy here. Patterson was hard to hit and fought very well out of his crouch like technique, he could launch quick n' snappy combination flurries from a wide variety of angles. If he choose to brawl against Rocky he'd be making a mistake but I think he could get to the inside, bang at Rocky's body and head and then out of range again without being on the receiving end of too much acumulative punishment.

In addition having a top-notch jab (and skills) such as Liston's would be a great/useful tool to have, in order to offset/negate Patterson's speed, rythmn and put him on the backfoot and off balance. Marciano's jab* isn't on that level and I think he'd find it a nightmare to catch up with Floyd, stylistically speaking,

I wouldn't be laying any money down (a puncher with Rocky's power can end a fight with a few well placed shots at any time) and I understand I'll take a lot of flack for this, but I think Patterson might just be able to squeak a narrow victory on the cards over a 12 rounder. :good



*Not to mention that he barely ever threw that shot.

[C. M. Clay II]

I could see this happen, too. Out of a three fight series i would also expect this to happen one time but i think Marcianos pressure, workrate and power would get Patterson more often than not.

I'm shocked!:shock:

[PowerPuncher]

I voted for Patterson KO because I thought it was going to say in 1955. If it happened in 1955 against a faded Marciano I think Patterson would KO the Rock, especially if it was the much slower Rocky with the bad back that showed up against Moore.

Patterson would start quickly beatign Marciano to the punch and he had better power than Walcott/Moore. I see him knocking Marciano down early and maybe finnishing him off after perhaps tasting the canvas himself.

Against a prime marciano I see the fight going the same way with the exception that Marciano would land come threw to stop Patterson.

If it was a 3 fight series I see Patterson winning 1 and Marciano 2. Each fighter could flaw the other. Patterson would beat Rocky to the punch, Maricano had the much greater durability and would be the stronger fighter and get his Suzie Q off on Patterson probably getting off the canvas to score a KO in a thriller.

[OLD FOGEY]

OK. Let's hear a little bit about why?







Patterson is a curious fighter and he's also a fighter that seems to have varying degrees of respect on the boards (like Shcmeling). I disagree but I don't think it's a ludicrous opinion.

Put it this way, on fight night there would be plenty of "experts" picking Patterson, esepcially pre-Liston.

A lot of experts picked Patterson over Liston in 1962, actually. Liston was a 10-7 favorite for this fight, according to the 1976 Ring Record Book. Interesting, he was actually a slightly larger favorite, at 7-5, for the 1965 rematch with Ali, believe it or not.

[bigG]

...i have always dismissed patterson in my mind until some recent threads prompted me to find out more about the man......olympic gold medalist and golden gloves champ at miidelweight.....no1 pro lightheavyweight contender and then youngest ever heavyweight champion at only 21.....looking at his record, i see he defeated some pretty tough guys, chuvalo, bonavena, a draw and a decsision loss to gerry quarry, a fighter many on here rate highly, a decision loss to jimmy ellis over 15 rounds in the h/w tournament of the time, after breaking ellis nose in the first round...and a quick win over henry cooper...all after he was blown out by liston..twice....even his amature rcord suggests he could bang a bit, 37 kos out of 40 wins.....the guy had a great ko record in the pros, and for a fighter who is generally perceived as light in the whiskers department, was only kod by huge punchers, sonny liston and ingemar johansen.....but the johansen loss was avenged..twice..by ko to floyd....the guy fought and beat bonavena in 72 and fought ali again in the seventies......what a long, and distinguished career.....the black and white on paper evidence suggest here we have a fast moving, hard hitting , physically small heavyweight with tremendous power for his size and, against popular opinion, a decent chin and good defense......and, if some of the fights iv actually seen of him in archive footage, tremendous amounts of pride and heart, particularly, perversely, in his humiliating systematicall beating at the hands of ali......and his insistence, against the wishes of cus d'amato, to fight liston...twice.....an underrated and unfairly overlooked h/w champ then????...the fact that floys seems to have been a tremendously liked and popular character out of the ring also speaks volumes...i think in this fight, floyd might well be a nightmare for marciano...who did the rock fight with pattersons speed, elusivness and movement.....i think floyd could win quite a wide u/d...unless marciano catches him clean......its a russian roulette type fight for floyd with one bullet in the chamber...the odds are in his favour, but one slip and his head comes off....

[Dempsey1238]

come on, Patterson in his prime, the 50's is not going to be dancing around. He be charging head first. Marciano would not need to catch up with Patterson. Marciano is going to end up doing the same thing Ingo and Liston did. And that is ko Patterson.

[Dempsey1238]

Walcott was more Elusivness than Patterson.

[PowerPuncher]

Walcott was more Elusivness than Patterson.

Floyd was more active on his feet than Walcott. I dont think Floyds getting ko'd by Abe Simon. Yes Walcott was elusive but wasn't consistantly so as his countless losses point out

Patterson offered a much tougher proporsition, with greater stamina, speed, movement, power and less defensive and negative.

[Dempsey1238]

Going FORWARD that is. Cus train Patterson like a lesser version of Mike Tyson. Useing the same peak a boo style. Marciano wonts need to find Patterson. Patterson would be there to hit. Ingo didnt have ANY problems finding the mark in fights 1 and 3. The reason he lost fight 3 was because of his glass chin. Good thing Patterson had a better chin than Ingo. Both guys were down.

[SuzieQ49]

"I dont think Floyds getting ko'd by Abe Simon."

walcott was nowhere near his prime when he fought simon, he shouldnt have even been granted a boxing liscense to fight simon under the conditions he was in!

[SuzieQ49]

look here, a peak 1951 rocky marciano knocks out patterson. your telling people that patterson will be able to outmuscle and outbrawl rocky marciano??? cause thats pattersons style. pattersons handspeed is the only thing that could give marciano fits, and even then marcianos workrate, strength, power will negate floyds speed. look wut happened when ingo hit floyd, imagine wut will happen when marciano hits floyd?

or is somehow ingo a better puncher than marciano?

[PowerPuncher]

"I dont think Floyds getting ko'd by Abe Simon."

walcott was nowhere near his prime when he fought simon, he shouldnt have even been granted a boxing liscense to fight simon under the conditions he was in!

Thats speculative, every man has a defeat after a loss, Walcotts bodyweight didnt fluctuate very much for a supposed 'starved' man. He also fought twice in the 2 months prior so he had money coming in from those fights to buy food

[PowerPuncher]

look here, a peak 1951 rocky marciano knocks out patterson. your telling people that patterson will be able to outmuscle and outbrawl rocky marciano??? cause thats pattersons style. pattersons handspeed is the only thing that could give marciano fits, and even then marcianos workrate, strength, power will negate floyds speed. look wut happened when ingo hit floyd, imagine wut will happen when marciano hits floyd?

or is somehow ingo a better puncher than marciano?

Floyds handspeed and his punches getting there before Rockys is exactly how I see him giving Rocky problems and knocking him down. Floyd is an excellent boxer but yes he would probably engage and it would depend how strategic he was when he engaged in if he could pull off the upset. I expect each fighter to hit the floor and have a Floyd-Ingo or Hamed-Kelly type war.

Ingo was a damn good puncher and pretty underrated. He ko'ed a common opponent faster than Liston

In a 3 fight series prime for prime I would expect it to go 2-1 Maricano.

Welcome back its been a while since we argued :D

[Dempsey1238]

in a 3 fith series I like the Rock in all 3 of em. Marciano would not flop around like Ingo did.

[JIm Broughton]

I don't think this would be a cakewalk for Marciano although I do think he would win. Floyd's handspeed would be troublesome for Rocky as would his in and out hopping type footwork. If you stand in front of Rocky and are of similar size then you're asking for trouble because sooner or later he will catch up to you. Patterson's best chance I feel would be to utilize his superior hand speed early and try to cut Rocky above his eye or eyes and try to force a stoppage on cuts. With Rocky's tendency to cut this is a distinct possibility. Floyd doesnt want to go into the trenches with Rocky for obvious reasons and Rocky carried his power late into a fight so Floyd would always have to be wary of this so I think his best chance lay in an early to mid round stoppage on cuts and get the hell out of there while he can with all his faculties intact.

[OLD FOGEY]

Floyd was more active on his feet than Walcott. I dont think Floyds getting ko'd by Abe Simon. Yes Walcott was elusive but wasn't consistantly so as his countless losses point out

Patterson offered a much tougher proporsition, with greater stamina, speed, movement, power and less defensive and negative.

Whom did Patterson defeat who was even in the same ballpark in size as the 6' 4" 260 lb Simon. I think the biggest rated fighter Patterson defeated was the 208 lb Chuvalo. We have to take a lot on faith to assume Patterson beats Simon.

And I don't think Patterson's movement is nearly as good as Walcott's.

[PowerPuncher]

Whom did Patterson defeat who was even in the same ballpark in size as the 6' 4" 260 lb Simon. I think the biggest rated fighter Patterson defeated was the 208 lb Chuvalo. We have to take a lot on faith to assume Patterson beats Simon.

And I don't think Patterson's movement is nearly as good as Walcott's.

Who did Abe Simon beat that was any good other than Walcot though? Chuvalo is more proven at a higher level. Both are limited

[C. M. Clay II]

Why?

You actually gave Patterson a chance.:yep

[OLD FOGEY]

Who did Abe Simon beat that was any good other than Walcot though? Chuvalo is more proven at a higher level. Both are limited

Men Simon defeated besides Walcott:

1. Roscoe Toles (rated five times between 1937 & 1942, peaking at #4 contender in 1942)
2. Gunnar Barlund (#3 contender in 1936, #8 contender in 1939)
3. Al Hart (#9 contender in 1944)
also drew with Turkey Thompson, rated six times in forties, peaking at #3 in 1949.

I wouldn't say Chuvalo wasn't proven against better opponents on the whole, but Simon was 50 lbs heavier and 3 inches taller. He would have been a pretty big bite to chew for a man who never defeated a rated fighter over 208 or even a trial horse over 213 (Charley Powell). This proved true for Walcott, also.

[PowerPuncher]

Men Simon defeated besides Walcott:

1. Roscoe Toles (rated five times between 1937 & 1942, peaking at #4 contender in 1942)
2. Gunnar Barlund (#3 contender in 1936, #8 contender in 1939)
3. Al Hart (#9 contender in 1944)
also drew with Turkey Thompson, rated six times in forties, peaking at #3 in 1949.

I wouldn't say Chuvalo wasn't proven against better opponents on the whole, but Simon was 50 lbs heavier and 3 inches taller. He would have been a pretty big bite to chew for a man who never defeated a rated fighter over 208 or even a trial horse over 213 (Charley Powell). This proved true for Walcott, also.

Thats hardly the stuff of legends is it, look at who he lost too in his prime. 14-11 Jim Thompson, 14-9 195lb Willie Reddish, amongst others

Simply picking Simon because hes BIG against an all time on the basis that Walcott got complacent and got clocked doesn't sound like good logic.

Do you think Ross Purrity would beat Patterson too? Hes even bigger and beat Wlad - in a very good fight if you get to see it.

[mcvey]

Whom did Patterson defeat who was even in the same ballpark in size as the 6' 4" 260 lb Simon. I think the biggest rated fighter Patterson defeated was the 208 lb Chuvalo. We have to take a lot on faith to assume Patterson beats Simon.

And I don't think Patterson's movement is nearly as good as Walcott's.
Simon on film looks pretty pathetic ,clumsy,slow a pawing jab,and devoid of real power,he could take it thats about it.I think Patterson would cream him.

[OLD FOGEY]

Thats hardly the stuff of legends is it, look at who he lost too in his prime. 14-11 Jim Thompson, 14-9 195lb Willie Reddish, amongst others

Simply picking Simon because hes BIG against an all time on the basis that Walcott got complacent and got clocked doesn't sound like good logic.

Do you think Ross Purrity would beat Patterson too? Hes even bigger and beat Wlad - in a very good fight if you get to see it.

You can't get away from the fact that size matters. Purity did beat Wlad and also knocked out Gonzalez. I don't see Patterson being an obvious victor over him, no. Patterson never proved he could beat most of the bigger men of his own era, except Chuvalo, and that was a close and very tough fight. Chuvalo is 40 lbs lighter and two inches, at least, shorter than Purrity.

Patterson and Walcott--When Patterson came out of the amateurs, he was taken under the wing of a major trainer. He could train full time and he had the best facilities and sparring partners, etc. Men like Walcott, and also Johnson and Dempsey, had to fight under entirely different conditions. I don't know if Walcott was starving, but he probably had to take many fights under extremely short notice and without proper preparation. Johnson, Dempsey, and Walcott all looked ordinary for years, until they turned it around and proved their talent. Look at how much Dempsey improved under Kearn's guidance in a short time. Patterson was not as erratic in his early years, but any comparision with Walcott is apples to oranges.

[OLD FOGEY]

Simon on film looks pretty pathetic ,clumsy,slow a pawing jab,and devoid of real power,he could take it thats about it.I think Patterson would cream him.

Have you seen a film of him other than getting pounded by Louis? He was obviously slow and clumsy, but I would like to see how he fought before he was knocked down several times and beaten to a pulp by the best puncher of the day. Simon's first fight with Louis was close enough that if Simon had swept the 13th through the 15th rounds, he could have gotten a fifteen round draw. (The fight was scheduled for 20) He must have had something on the ball.

My main point is that Patterson's performances regressed as the opponents got bigger, in distinction to Dempsey, Louis, and Marciano, all of whom performed very well against their bigger opponents.

[Marciano Frazier]

Patterson was very fast in his prime, had great handspeed, footwork and very good skills to go with that speed as well as guile and agility.

I don't think Marciano would intimidate Patterson like Liston did and (unlike Liston) he'd actually be the smaller guy here. Patterson was hard to hit and fought very well out of his crouch like technique, he could launch quick n' snappy combination flurries from a wide variety of angles. If he choose to brawl against Rocky he'd be making a mistake but I think he could get to the inside, bang at Rocky's body and head and then out of range again without being on the receiving end of too much acumulative punishment.

In addition having a top-notch jab (and skills) such as Liston's would be a great/useful tool to have, in order to offset/negate Patterson's speed, rythmn and put him on the backfoot and off balance. Marciano's jab* isn't on that level and I think he'd find it a nightmare to catch up with Floyd, stylistically speaking,

I wouldn't be laying any money down (a puncher with Rocky's power can end a fight with a few well placed shots at any time) and I understand I'll take a lot of flack for this, but I think Patterson might just be able to squeak a narrow victory on the cards over a 12 rounder. :good



*Not to mention that he barely ever threw that shot. Patterson was fast with good technique, but he was a straight-ahead, inside pressure fighter, not a stick-and-mover. You'll find this in absolutely all of his big fights from Moore to Johansson to Liston to Ali. Now, he had a good peek-a-boo style defense, but it was far from impregnable- note that he was dropped on a regular basis even during his prime and even against mediocre guys like pro-debuter Pete Rademacher and Roy Harris- and his chin was far below-average for a heavyweight champion. Literally all it would take from a peak Marciano would be one big bomb, and that's against a guy with a somewhat flawed defense who would be coming to him all night. I don't think you're being too realistic in suggesting that it's probable Patterson could avoid this for an entire 12 rounds with Marciano. Now, I'm uncertain whether it would be an early blow-out or a hard-fought battle into the middle or even late rounds, but I'm pretty confident Marciano would take Patterson out.

[Marciano Frazier]

Thats speculative, every man has a defeat after a loss, Walcotts bodyweight didnt fluctuate very much for a supposed 'starved' man. He also fought twice in the 2 months prior so he had money coming in from those fights to buy food Look, it's just plain not reasonably debatable that Walcott wasn't in his prime when he fought Simon. At that point in his career, Walcott was not even in the top 10. Not even close to the top 10, in fact. The Walcott of 10 years later was a perennial #1 contender and eventually champion. He was absolutely not even close to as good a fighter as he later became when he fought Simon.

[RoccoMarciano]

Rocky once said something to this effect: "If I told you I could beat Patterson you'd think I was bragging; If I told you I couldn't, I'd be lying"

Pretty much sums up the mindset he always possessed.

Rocky by a KO in 9 or 10.

[mcvey]

Have you seen a film of him other than getting pounded by Louis? He was obviously slow and clumsy, but I would like to see how he fought before he was knocked down several times and beaten to a pulp by the best puncher of the day. Simon's first fight with Louis was close enough that if Simon had swept the 13th through the 15th rounds, he could have gotten a fifteen round draw. (The fight was scheduled for 20) He must have had something on the ball.

My main point is that Patterson's performances regressed as the opponents got bigger, in distinction to Dempsey, Louis, and Marciano, all of whom performed very well against their bigger opponents.
Marciano didnt really beat many bigger men did he?Louis had seriously declined when he met Rocky.and relied on his jab to fend Marciano off,he hardly threw his right,,but tokk a passive role ,no way a prime Louis wouldnt have been going forward against Marciano.Dempsey andLouis feasted on the bigger men ,but Pattersions punch and bodily strength wasnt near their class.I have seen a bit of Simon on film before he met Louis,cant remember who against,he looked much the same as I recall a bit more bounce in his step perhaps ,but essentially still a plodder,prime for prime Walcott would have beaten Abe no problem.

[frankwornank]

Patterson came at you. He was a tremendous puncher and contrary to popular opinion, had a decent chin. He was always in top shape.

However, Rocky was extremely durable and punched like a mule.

I see Floyd ahead on the score cards but somewhere along the way, Rocky catches him with a shot and TKO's Floyd.

Rocky was a lot more cagey in the ring than he is given credit for. He had the ability to figure you out and time his shots. He was more than just a bull strong guy.

[mdmuir]

Patterson always gets a bad rap for his chin. Yes, he was knocked down a lot, but most of the time he GOT UP and got around to finishing business. I think Floyd demonstrated some incredible durability in taking all those knockdowns through his career and still managing to win most of the time.

[jowcol]

As the resident Floyd nut-hugger I'll admit my bias, but I hear this "one shot from this guy or that guy and Floyd would be out like a light" He NEVER went out like a light!
1) a Sunday bomb from Ingo would hurt ANYONE and put most away.
2) Liston couldn't recall ever hitting anyone any harder than he hit
Floyd.
And yet Floyd rose on those occasions or was rising. Lennox Lewis got smoked into dreamland twice worse than Patterson EVER did.

Virtually ALL the Patterson knockdowns were of the flash variety or his being off balance with his lunging style. Let's look:
>that Frenchman as a teenager/Rademacher/Harris/McNeeley?/3 of the 4 Quarry KD's (that one right in the first fight was a Sunday shot that really hurt Floyd and he proceeded to get to his feet and smoke Jerry's arse!) Who else? Ali/Bonavena (questionable). Did ANY of these shots even hurt Patterson to ANY degree? I saw him after many of the above drops with a bemused embarrassed smile on his face.

IMHO NO ONE knocks Patterson OUT! The Rock may have forced stoppage of an early Floyd but that would be it; this IS a legitimate and interesting thread.
55-8-1 with four losses to Ali/Liston.
That leaves 55-4-1 with many, many, people out there feeling he won three of those losses and won the draw.

Outside of a prime Foreman/Frazier I'd really have liked to see ol' Patterson mixing with some of the 70's boys in prime:
Norton/Lyle/Shavers etc...you think these guys walk right thru him?
Better think again IMHO...
Hall o' Fame ALL THE WAY FOLKS.
my $0.02

[Marciano Frazier]

As the resident Floyd nut-hugger I'll admit my bias, but I hear this "one shot from this guy or that guy and Floyd would be out like a light" He NEVER went out like a light!
I haven't really seen anyone say that in this thread.

1) a Sunday bomb from Ingo would hurt ANYONE and put most away.
2) Liston couldn't recall ever hitting anyone any harder than he hit
Floyd.
And yet Floyd rose on those occasions or was rising. Lennox Lewis got smoked into dreamland twice worse than Patterson EVER did.

Virtually ALL the Patterson knockdowns were of the flash variety or his being off balance with his lunging style. Let's look:
>that Frenchman as a teenager/Rademacher/Harris/McNeeley?/3 of the 4 Quarry KD's (that one right in the first fight was a Sunday shot that really hurt Floyd and he proceeded to get to his feet and smoke Jerry's arse!) Who else? Ali/Bonavena (questionable). Did ANY of these shots even hurt Patterson to ANY degree? I saw him after many of the above drops with a bemused embarrassed smile on his face.
The Ali knockdown was not questionable/"not-hurt-to-any-degree." Patterson is clearly rocked by some sharp long-range artillery from Ali and drops to a knee under a flurry. Granted on the whole you have somewhat of a point- that is, Patterson was only really knocked out by a couple of monstrous hitters and most of the other knockdowns he suffered were brief/not of a serious nature.

IMHO NO ONE knocks Patterson OUT!
Liston already knocked Patterson out twice, unless if by "OUT" you mean out cold. I would grant that it would at least be very unlikely for anyone to put Patterson out cold.

Outside of a prime Foreman/Frazier I'd really have liked to see ol' Patterson mixing with some of the 70's boys in prime:
Norton/Lyle/Shavers etc...you think these guys walk right thru him?
Better think again IMHO...
I'd favor Patterson over those guys.

[timmers612]

Did you guys know Floyd said Ingo hit harder then Liston? He did. Also Jack Dempsey said Marciano hit harder then either Louis or him.

[RoccoMarciano]

Did you guys know Floyd said Ingo hit harder then Liston? He did. Also Jack Dempsey said Marciano hit harder then either Louis or him.

Louis stated he could never have beaten Marciano. I don't really believe that, but it is what he said.

[jowcol]

Marciano knock out 1rd..............Patterson in a coma..........

:lol: You stand-up wag you!