thriller in Manilla

[timber]

on More4 sky channel 138 on now!

[chrisfinch]

Or an hour later on +1, channel 139

[HMSTempleGarden]

is this the actual fight or documentary?

[chrisfinch]

documentary, a very good one at that.

Was first on a year or so back, so you might have seen it

[Primadonna Kool]

Ok thanks...

[Smudger]

Does stuff from more 4 get put on 4od? Wanna watch it but can't atm.

[GazOC]

It gives Fraziers side but its very, very anti Ali.

[Losfer_Words]

It gives Fraziers side but its very, very anti Ali.

I still enjoyed it, though. Let's be fair, Ali was a twat in the lead-up to that fight. I think it's a fairly accurate portrayal, TBH.

[GazOC]

I still enjoyed it, though. Let's be fair, Ali was a twat in the lead-up to that fight. I think it's a fairly accurate portrayal, TBH.

I agree mate, Fraziers side needed telling but to watch the docu in isolation would give a very warped perspective on the whole situation IMHO.

The 60's black civil rights movement must have been a very complex/ difficult time to live though as a famous, young black man and I think that should be taken into consideration when judging Alis behaviour around that time.

[Kid Lucky]

Good lead in to 'Soho Sex King' on afterwards

[slip&counter]

interestingly the producer is the son of Mark Kram (author of shadows of Manila) a decent book but to much anger and agenda ridden to take seriously.

[Losfer_Words]

I agree mate, Fraziers side needed telling but to watch the docu in isolation would give a very warped perspective on the whole situation IMHO.

The 60's black civil rights movement must have been a very complex/ difficult time to live though as a famous, young black man and I think that should be taken into consideration when judging Alis behaviour around that time.

Fraizer was also a famous young black man at the time as well and he was well-thought of - even amongst a lot of the white community - and behaved himself and conducted himself in a gentlemanly manner in comparison to Ali. Ali's behaviour in the lead-up to that fight, IMHO, is attributed to one thing: The Nation of Islam. That's an argument that might get a bit out of hand, though. I may have just opened a can of worms.

I do agree that people should keep an open mind when watching the documentary, though. Ali's conduct in the build-up to that fight shouldn't sully all of the good he has done for various charities and the sport itself.

[HMSTempleGarden]

documentary, a very good one at that.

Was first on a year or so back, so you might have seen it

yeah I have it on Sky plus.

a really good watch and insightful

[GazOC]

I don't think Joe ever felt the same pressure as Ali as regards being a famous black man. Frazier was a great boxer but was never articulate enough to be used for any political ends and Vietnam was a pretty much a none issue by the time he was champ.

Theres no denying (IMHO) that Ali was manipulated by the NOI though but at the time I think a lot of young blacks thought that something, ANYTHING needed to change in the USA.

maybe I'm just being an Ali apologist....

[Kid Lucky]

I wonder if the Nation of Islam thing has more attention in the doc because of the current preoccupations with terrorism? Sorry if that's a bit heavy!

[Bodysnatcher]

A great documentary.

Shows how Ali has been sanitised - the Michael Mann film made him look like fucking Jesus.

He's still a hero of mine but it's good to see the darker elements of who he was.

[safc1990]

Ferdie Pacheco is a prick.

That is all.

[Bodysnatcher]

interestingly the producer is the son of Mark Kram (author of shadows of Manila) a decent book but to much anger and agenda ridden to take seriously.

I was interested in reading that book, but like you say, I've heard it's too agenda-laden to be taken seriously.

Although, I do think Joe deserved to have a bit of bias on his side for a change.

[Bodysnatcher]

Ferdie Pacheco is a prick.

That is all.

A bitter-sounding old man.

Apparently, as a commentator and pundit for Showtime, he was beyond awful - just an obnoxious idiot.

[Losfer_Words]

I don't think Joe ever felt the same pressure as Ali as regards being a famous black man. Frazier was a great boxer but was never articulate enough to be used for any political ends and Vietnam was a pretty much a none issue by the time he was champ.

Theres no denying (IMHO) that Ali was manipulated by the NOI though but at the time I think a lot of young blacks thought that something, ANYTHING needed to change in the USA.

maybe I'm just being an Ali apologist....

Yeah, I can accept that. As you allude to, I suppose the events of the time effected different people in different ways and Fraizer and Ali were two completely different personalities. Either way, Ali was way out of order in the lead-up to the fight; amazing, and poignant really, that Ali sort of became the very thing he despised as a result of his actions. I think he's conceded he was wrong in recent years as well but never gone as far to say he was sorry for his actions. All part of the legend of the event, though.

[Primadonna Kool]

A great documentary.

Shows how Ali has been sanitised - the Michael Mann film made him look like fucking Jesus.

He's still a hero of mine but it's good to see the darker elements of who he was.

Darker elements of who he was..?

[hagman1989]

Ive seen it befre and im wtching it again but if were honest theres no excuse for alis behavior in the build up

[GazOC]

Ive seen it befre and im wtching it again but if were honest theres no excuse for alis behavior in the build up

I disagree mate. I've done a lot of reading (not just about all Ali) and those years were just mental in the USA.

Ali was cruel but they really were extraordinary times for a young icon like Ali.

[hagman1989]

I disagree mate. I've done a lot of reading (not just about all Ali) and those years were just mental in the USA.

Ali was cruel but they really were extraordinary times for a young icon like Ali.


personal and unfounded atacks are never right in the build up to a boxing match

[GazOC]

personal and unfounded atacks are never right in the build up to a boxing match

Ali, the fight in those times trancended boxing. In a social context we're not talking about Mayorga calling an opponent a "faggot", its not just trash talking.

[hagman1989]

Ali, the fight in those times trancended boxing. In a social context we're not talking about Mayorga calling an opponent a "faggot", its not just trash talking.


this is my point its not trash talking

they were personel and unfounded atacks
on a man that was nthing if not a gentlmen

[GazOC]

this is my point its not trash talking

they were personel and unfounded atacks
on a man that was nthing if not a gentlmen


You're missing my point. The fight and the comments Ali made are a product of their time. There were people getting shot for being black, made to sit in certain seats on a bus...etc.

Crazy times mate.

[BamBam]

Ali was a massive cunt. The end

[GazOC]

Ali was a massive cunt. The end

Very profound!!

[HMSTempleGarden]

I'm going to refrain on talking about Ali and his race issues, because I don't know who I might or who will take offence.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[hagman1989]

You're missing my point. The fight and the comments Ali made are a product of their time. There were people getting shot for being black, made to sit in certain seats on a bus...etc.

Crazy times mate.


was joe fraizer not black?

[GazOC]

I'm going to refrain on talking about Ali and his race issues, because I don't know who I might or who will take offence.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Have you seen Parkeys take on all that? He reckoned Ali was worried about getting caught out on reading the book and went on the offensive to avoid it.

[GazOC]

was joe fraizer not black?

See page 2.

(and its Frazier, not Fraizer)

[BamBam]

Very profound!!

Not trying to be profound. He was a cheap shotting, smart arsed, underhanded little cunt. Make all the excuses you want for him about 'the time he lived in' blah blah blah. The shit he talked about Frazier was below the belt and beyond the limits of usual shite. He was a sneaky little cunt. It wasn't just that he showed Frazier no respect, it was the active disrespect he gave then man. A man who supported him when he was up shit creek and persona no grata as well.

People can love him for what he did in the ring but I've no time for the excuse or apologists who try and defend him being a cunt.

[Bodysnatcher]

Darker elements of who he was..?

Well, calling Frazier an Uncle Tom and a Gorilla; all that stuff was airbrushed out of history for a long time.

(That's what I meant by `darker`, nothing racial, just that he had a dark side to him)

[hagman1989]

See page 2.

(and its Frazier, not Fraizer)

guy you cant defend alis actions during this period in his life and for you even to atempt this is wrong

[HMSTempleGarden]

Have you seen Parkeys take on all that? He reckoned Ali was worried about getting caught out on reading the book and went on the offensive to avoid it.

Ali was/is a racist.

[Bodysnatcher]

It's worth remembering that Ali ended up rejecting the Nation and becoming a `standard` Sunni Muslim.

He also expressed regret that he turned away from Malcolm X when Malcolm rejected seperatism.

Of course, Malcolm would also insult other black people with `Uncle Tom` if he saw them as part of the establishment.

The difference was the Malcolm was quicker than Ali to reject this way of thinking, although Ali ultimately did.

[GazOC]

Not trying to be profound. He was a cheap shotting, smart arsed, underhanded little cunt. Make all the excuses you want for him about 'the time he lived in' blah blah blah. The shit he talked about Frazier was below the belt and beyond the limits of usual shite. He was a sneaky little cunt. It wasn't just that he showed Frazier no respect, it was the active disrespect he gave then man. A man who supported him when he was up shit creek and persona no grata as well.

People can love him for what he did in the ring but I've no time for the excuse or apologists who try and defend him being a cunt.

So my opinion is "blah, blah, blah" but your superbly reasoned argument calling a Ali a "cunt" is somehow better?

[Bodysnatcher]

guy you cant defend alis actions during this period in his life and for you even to atempt this is wrong

I do think his insults against Frazier were unacceptable and offensive.

But I also think in the context of that period, and considering how manipulated Ali was by the Nation, that they can be understood.

If Ali was still peddling that crap about Frazier now, I'd feel different - but he isn't.

He's become a different person. To put it another way, I think he's become the person he always was, really, deep down.

[GazOC]

Ali was/is a racist.


He was def. a racist but (again) he was a product of his times.

[icemax]

I've got my Thrillas and Rumbles mixed up dumbass that I am...I was 20 minutes into the film wondering why Frazier was on talking and we hadn't seen Foreman yet

[GazOC]

guy you cant defend alis actions during this period in his life and for you even to atempt this is wrong


I've got to get to bed in a mo (up at 6am) but I've put my opinion across in pages 1 and 2 of this thread. If you want to quote and reply to the posts I've made then feel free, we'll have a discussion tomorrow.:good

[Bodysnatcher]

I think when people listened to Ali, they heard racist sentiments but they never truly thought he believed them.

For example, Ali had 4 or 5 interviews with Parky, and everytime, he had the (mostly) white audience eating out the palm of his hand.

A lot of that was his charm, of course, but I also think they recognised the conflict between the ideology he'd subscribed to and the person he was.

[BamBam]

So my opinion is "blah, blah, blah" but your superbly reasoned argument calling a Ali a "cunt" is somehow better?

I wasn't refering to your own personal opinion. Don't take it personally fella. I just have no time for Ali apologists around this time of his life. He may have regretted stuff after (or said he did) and people can give all the reasons or excuses for why he did and said what he did. The bottom line is he acted like a complete cunt at that time in his life. Thats the bottom line for me. The man was responsible for his own actions and he acted extremely poorly. Fuck this talk about him being conflicted or led by the Nation. You are responsible for your own actions

I've no reason to be biased towards Frazier or Ali. I just call it like i see it. And all I see with Ali is a chickenshit little coward with a big mouth abusing and belittling Frazier to feed his own purposes and ego when the very least he owed Frazier was a basic level of respect. The kind of repsect and common decency human beings should generally lend to each other anyway.

[GazOC]

I wasn't refering to your own personal opinion. Don't take it personally fella. I just have no time for Ali apologists around this time of his life. He may have regretted stuff after (or said he did) and people can give all the reasons or excuses for why he did and said what he did. The bottom line is he acted like a complete cunt at that time in his life. Thats the bottom line for me. The man was responsible for his own actions and he acted extremely poorly. Fuck this talk about him being conflicted or led by the Nation. You are responsible for your own actions

I've no reason to be biased towards Frazier or Ali. I just call it like i see it. And all I see with Ali is a chickenshit little coward with a big mouth abusing and belittling Frazier to feed his own purposes and ego when the very least he owed Frazier was a basic level of respect. The kind of repsect and common decency human beings should generally lend to each other anyway.

I call it how I see it as well, which is with some sense of historical perspective rather than just looking at it as Toney/ Mayorga type trash talking.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree eh?

[BamBam]

Thats what boxings about :good This is perhiperal to your general boxing thrash talk but its still open to debate and differing opinons.

If we all agreed with each other it would be like a discussion on the Sky Sports football panel. A load of cunts sitting around agreeing with each other and saying that everyone is great and everything is 'smashing'

[GazOC]

Thats what boxings about :good This is perhiperal to your general boxing thrash talk but its still open to debate and differing opinons.

If we all agreed with each other it would be like a discussion on the Sky Sports football panel. A load of cunts sitting around agreeing with each other and saying that everyone is great and everything is 'smashing'

"Super".:good;)

[icemax]

Regardless of anyones view of Ali or Frazier, these two fighters produced a trilogy that is as good as any....the Thrilla even transcended their first fight which in itself was an absolute classic. Thank you Joe and Muhammad

[HMSTempleGarden]

Regardless of anyones view of Ali or Frazier, these two fighters produced a trilogy that is as good as any....the Thrilla even transcended their first fight which in itself was an absolute classic. Thank you Joe and Muhammad

yeah thank you, but ultimately it cost both fighters their health.

[BamBam]

To bring it off topic a little just for a second while triolgies are being thrown around. I'd recommend Ali-Norton trilogy for anyone who hasn't seen it. Less well known and sexy as the Ali-Frazier trilogy but captivating nonetheless

[ishy]

What I find sad is that to this day it seems Joe still harbours a grudge against Ali. Isn't it in this documentary where we see that Frazier's answerphone message mocks Ali's current condition?

I sort of understand where it comes from - both guys were equals, sure Ali won the series 2-1 but no one pushed him as hard as Frazier did, no one tested him like that. Yet today, the fighter the world reveres and looks back in awe at is Ali. Frazier is largely forgotten, even ignored by the general public. Ali is financially secure whereas Joe had to sell his gym off and appear in Klitschko ring entrances to make a few bucks. That all gnaws away at Joe in my opinion and doesn't allow him to make peace with Ali. Remember that comment about pushing Muhammad into the Olympic flame?

It's quite sad and a real shame that they haven't settled their differences in old age.

[harvinmagler]

agreed, joe's relenting hatred of ali even at the age of 63 made for quite a warped ending to it, up to then it was good, if not slightly pro frazier

[mrbassie]

I wonder if the Nation of Islam thing has more attention in the doc because of the current preoccupations with terrorism? Sorry if that's a bit heavy!

I saw the doc a while ago, don't remember them makin too much of it TBH. However it's something that gets glossed over whenever there's any doc or article about Ali. You have to face the reality, these people weren't a bunch of pious monks, they were armed to the teeth, their slogan was "kill whitey", they were 110% against the civil rights movement and a lot of black people were scared to death of them. They were also heretics in Muslim terms as they considered their leader a prophet.

EDIT: @People saying they don't get Frazier's inability to let it go: I haven't read ghosts of Manilla but isn't there something in it about Ali turning up at Frazier's door with a bunch of gun toting NOI goons? I'm sure I've read that in the classic forum. If that happened to me I wouldn't exactly be forgiving either.